This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The Collaborative Co-Parent (How To Put Your Kids First) with Gabriella Pomare | 401

Starting point is 00:00:00 Grownups, if there's a child in your life who is interested in, curious about, or fascinated by people in places from history, then my podcast, The Past and the Curious, might just be a hit in your home. From the invention of microscopes to world-traveling dogs to fashions of the 1890s, gold rush ghost towns, and audiences going wild for walking competitions, we've got a little bit of it all. Hosted by Children's Author and Museum educator Mick Sullivan, that's me, the show is, fun, funny, engaging, honest, and beloved by kids and parents alike. Find the past and the curious at all the usual podcast places. Quick pause. We expanded to YouTube because we keep hearing,

Starting point is 00:00:43 I needed this 20 years ago. And the next generation shouldn't have to wait. So tell the young women in your world who are scrolling and watching to subscribe to This Is Woman's Work on YouTube. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast, where it's together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. And if we're going to keep challenging outdated expectations, we have to talk about one of the biggest, dustiest relics of them all. The idea that the right best family is one mom, one dad, one marriage, one magical, happily life and until death do you part. The fantasy that marriage is synonymous with happiness and that all children simply thrive because their parents stay

Starting point is 00:01:37 married as well, complete and utter bullshit. Kids don't magically flourish in households full of abuse, neglect, dysfunction, disconnection, or silent resentment just because there's a shared last name and a legal document. And the myth that's stepping away from a relationship that cannot or will not serve both people, that it's some kind of failure is also bullshit. Families look differently today, Not worse, different. Blended families can be extraordinary. Multi-home families can be stable. Committed single parents are freaking heroes. Listen, two parents are not automatically better than one, three, or four. More complicated? Sure. Universally bad? Not even close. Like most things, it's how you do it that matters. So today we're talking about how to be a collaborative co-parent. And we're not

Starting point is 00:02:32 assuming the breakdown of a family, but the recreation of one, one with new rules, one where the kids aren't in the middle, they're at the center, and one where adults choose clarity over chaos, communication over combat, and healing over the never-ending urge to win. And we're doing it with somebody who has lived it, practiced it, taught it, and literally wrote a book on it. Gabriela Pomeri is a family lawyer, award-winning author, and internationally recognized co-parenting advocate who has spent more than a decade helping families navigate separation with dignity and sanity. She's a partner at the Norton Law Group in Sydney and has handled everything from high conflict cases to international relocation disputes. And her debut book,

Starting point is 00:03:18 The Collaborative Co-Parent, is already earning global acclaim. Blending her legal expertise with her own journey, Gabriella, is leading a movement to redefine separation, not as the end of a family, but the beginning of a new one built with intention, boundaries, and compassion. Gabriela, as I mentioned in my introduction, you have both professional and personal experience with separation and the creation of a new family. So I'd love to start by asking, what's in your experience, the first step in moving from conflict to collaboration, especially when there are hurt feelings and anger, and I have to imagine some temptation to get petty in some cases, The word collaboration, I think, is key. What are some steps to do that?

Starting point is 00:04:05 Can I firstly just say, wow, I loved that introduction. I felt that so much and it was so real and so true. So thank you. I just had to say that. It was brilliant. Thank you. Now, look, I think it's really hard. The reality is when you first separate, you are not going to be what I call a collaborative co-parent. It takes some people weeks. The reality is, though, it takes most people months or even years. It took me, I would say, a good year before I could even step back and say, I think I'm doing this a little bit wrong. Even though I'm a family lawyer and I felt like I knew everything, I genuinely didn't. I didn't understand how hard it would be to look at this person who I thought I was going to spend my whole life with, you know, who I thought I was going to

Starting point is 00:04:51 have the family holidays with and grow a family with and have this child with and say, now we need to still communicate and work things out together, even though we're not living together and maybe we don't even like each other anymore. So firstly, it takes time. That's number one. And I think what makes someone want to be collaborative is that catapult, that moment that shocks you almost where you say, shit, we need to do this better for our kid. And it might be that something's come up at school. It might be sadly that you start seeing your child suffering or something internally just isn't working. So it's usually that gotcha moment where someone's says, all right, we're the adults now. It's time to, as hard as it is, you might have had an affair,

Starting point is 00:05:31 there might be cons leaked. There's probably a reason why you broke up. Forget that. I get that. Work through it. That's hard and that's going to be its own healing journey. Put your kid first. That is what has to be at the center of your mind and it takes someone to really make that active choice. You know, you need to make that choice. It's not just going to come naturally. So I appreciate so much you saying to give yourself time and that it's a lot of you. it's going to take time and that this is not easy. It is absolutely hard. And I think, you know, this idea of putting our kids first or having them be at the center of our lives comes fairly naturally to a lot of women. But in this situation, or maybe not naturally, maybe societally,

Starting point is 00:06:19 we have pressure to do that. I find most women are constantly thinking about what's best for their kids. But now you're in a time where something is going on in your relationship that feels very intimate between you and one other person, even though the kids are involved. So I guess my question is, any tips or questions or things that people could do to put their kids at the center even during all of the turmoil? So maybe to prevent it having to be a big gotcha moment. or that your child is suffering. So I think the reality is that to do that, you need to start working on your communication from the outset.

Starting point is 00:07:02 Because for me, a lot of what I write about in my book and a lot of what I speak about is this idea of communication. And what I often see and look, what I experience myself too, and what a lot of my client's experience is communication breaks down early because of things like emotion and grief. We are hurting. We're healing ourselves. And whilst you're still healing,

Starting point is 00:07:21 you're finding it difficult to co-parent to get on for the sake of your child. So if what you can do from the beginning, from the moment you separate is say, I'm going to keep my communication really neutral. I'm going to keep my child at the forefront. And what that means is any decision I make, forget how it affects me. So many of us as parents and as moms especially, we're trying to do what we think is best, what's going to work for us. And I find with dads especially, it's like this idea of fairness and what's right and what's mine.

Starting point is 00:07:49 It's not. So when you're making those decisions and when you're communicating, almost think, is this genuinely benefiting my child? Number one. Number two, when you're about to send a text message or an email or you're having that phone call, think, if a judge was reading this, if a friend was reading this, or most importantly, if my child was reading this, would they be proud of me? So tone it down.

Starting point is 00:08:11 I sat with a client yesterday and she was engaging in this text report. I said, just stop. I said, because if your son was reading that message, not that he should, But if he was, gosh, he would be upset. He would not be proud of you. Keep a business-like. So, yeah, a business-like relationship with your co-parent through communication and decision-making is going to avoid that gotcha moment

Starting point is 00:08:33 because from the outset, you're doing things with your child in mind. That is such good advice. Thank you. I know in your book you talk about four modes of communication, and I just want to hone in on that because, as you said, communication is so important. Could you tell us about those four modes briefly? Obviously, we want people to go get the book and dive into it deeper, but tell us a little bit about those four modes.

Starting point is 00:08:59 Yeah, I think they're so important. And it's a big thing because as I said before, as soon as that communication breaks down, that co-parenting relationship breaks down and your child is impacted. So they listen, pause, reflect, and respond. And listen doesn't just mean, hey, my co-parents talking, I'm listening or I'm pretending to. It means actually hearing what that person is saying. So if they're speaking to you, and it might be something that causes anger, it might be a really soft point for you, something difficult. But hear it out. Give that person the respect of, I'm here, I'm listening,

Starting point is 00:09:33 tell me what you want to say. And then pause. And that power of the pause is so important. It's probably the utmost important part in any relationship. I don't think this even, you know, matters whether you're getting divorced, separated co-parenting or in a business or whatever, but just pause. You do not need to respond immediately. You need to digest what's being said to you and actually think about, okay, I have the power now as to what comes next. I can either make this high conflict and come back with something really difficult, make this a bit of a war, or I can go away and think about the most appropriate way forward that's going to benefit my child. And then we start to reflect. So we reflect on, okay, do I pause now for three minutes, three days? How long do I need to

Starting point is 00:10:16 come back with what's being said to me. And then I go back and I respond with something that I've thought about with respect and that's going to move the issue forward. As co-parents and I think any relationship that's a little bit high conflict or that's had its difficulties, you automatically just want to fight back. You know, you've heard something and you're probably just hearing the negative in what's being said to you. And that's just a dynamic often of a separated couple. We're not all best friends. And even when we are, there's still this underlying need of, I want to win. I want to be the person that comes out of this conversation, having either got what I want, or I've won, or I'm the one, you know.

Starting point is 00:10:53 So go away. What's going to benefit my child? Are they going to be happy with what I'm saying? And at the end of the day, who cares if I'm right or wrong? Who cares if I've won? What's my child getting out of this? Are we doing something that will benefit them in their long-term future? I love that.

Starting point is 00:11:10 Phenomenal advice. And I know somebody listening is like, okay, that's all well and good. but my ex is a dick or a narcissist or a psychopath or whatever we want to call this person, right? And I think that there is some truth to you can do everything according to what you're saying, but this is still a two-person relationship even if you're separating. So any advice for how to deal with somebody who isn't putting the children at the center and who isn't making this even moderately easier than it needs to be. Any thoughts there?

Starting point is 00:11:50 Absolutely. And you're so true and you're right because I do see this all the time. And it's probably more common than the couple who says, hey, we can get along. And that's why so many women do leave relationships. You get to that point where you can't live with that person anymore. It's not healthy. It's not healthy for your children. So all you really can do is model yourself how to be a collaborative,

Starting point is 00:12:11 it, you know, a positive co-parent and put in place really strong boundaries. Boundaries are everything. And so many women come to me and say, I can't put these boundaries in place because it's going to ignite further conflict. You know, it's going to create rage in him. It's going to make him angry. And I say, so what? You need to put in place the boundaries to help you.

Starting point is 00:12:33 You're probably the primary parent. That's the reality of it. And you need to do what's going to serve you first. So firstly, your health, your mental well-being, all of that is in. important. And then we say, how do I do it better for my kids? So I had a client yesterday, exact situation, very narcissistic, very difficult ex-husband. And she said, but my girls need my dad. And that's true. Kids generally, when there hasn't been significant family violence and drugs and those sorts of issues, do need both parents to an extent. And she said, how do I do it though? We cannot communicate.

Starting point is 00:13:06 I'm getting barrages of text messages that are harassing me that I feel genuinely intimidated and scared of. So he came up with a plan of how can we make this work for their children, and it was using a cod parenting app. And a lot of people might know what's out there. There are different ones, a good one's called our family wizard. So I said, we only use the app moving forward now. And the good thing about that is it's got like a red and a green light as to when you're communicating.

Starting point is 00:13:31 So if you're saying something that's high conflict, it'll stop you and say, no, you can't write that. You know, let us send it. If you're trying to guilt trip the other parent, it'll also monitor that to say, no, there's a better way of writing that. It seems very monitored. It seems fake, but often parents need that. And if it can control the communication and help parents limit what they're saying to focus on a child and make decisions and keep a business like, maybe that works for then. And I said to her, otherwise, block his number. You don't deserve or need to be getting barrages of text messages

Starting point is 00:14:02 harassing you. That number is blocked. It is reserved for emergencies only. And our protocol moving forward will be using the app. Other boundaries of things like I simply won't respond. If it's after 8 p.m. a night, I'm not going to let you affect my sleep, affect my night. You will get a response tomorrow. So easy for me to say, but if you can try and put in place some boundaries and take back a bit of that control, you're the person who gets to decide what the co-parenting relationship looks like. My book doesn't have all the rules. It's got some tips as to how to do it better. But at the end of the day, you know what's going to work for your family and the dynamic of your relationship with your ex. Yeah. I did not know apps like this existed and what an amazing tool to

Starting point is 00:14:47 have, especially for situations like this where somebody just refuses to respect boundaries or really, really wants to push buttons. So can you give us, I don't know why, but holidays keep popping up in my brain as times where boundaries might need to be discussed and decided and held to. But I'm sure there is a lot of examples. What are maybe some things that you see come up fairly frequently that you might want to think about to have boundaries around if you're about to or if you're going through a separation? Yeah, look, I think holidays, whether that's Christmas, birthdays, any sort of special occasion is difficult. And I do think it goes back to the idea of we were a family. We had this idea, this dream of doing it together. We were going to have the big birthday parties. We were going to have our family and our homes.

Starting point is 00:15:40 And now we're not. And you might be by yourself or it might be even more complicated where all of a sudden you've got a new partner or your ex has a new partner and you've blended families and there are stepchildren involved. And one of the most difficult parts, and I'm sure it's something we'll get to, is when there is this new person, that breaks down their relationship as well. So when you've got special occasions, I think it's so important to plan early. I think kids need to know where they're going to be and when. It can't be a big debate, a high conflict situation a week before Christmas, you know, the day before a child's birthday where kids still don't know, am I going to mums, am I going to dads? Is it okay to spend time with both of them? Will one parent get upset if I

Starting point is 00:16:20 want to spend time with the other parent? So plan early, have change over location, change over time in place early so everyone knows it and be clear on it. But having said that, a bit of flexibility as well, particularly over the holidays and those sorts of things. When you've got Christmas, even Thanksgiving, plans don't always get a place. There might be weather issues. A celebration might go over a little bit. You need to be somewhat flexible in that.

Starting point is 00:16:45 Send a message, be courteous. I'm half an hour late. But don't fight back a war and ruin your child's Christmas or special occasion because the other parent is half an hour late. We have to put up with that sometimes, okay? But I find that those sorts of situations are difficult. So communication is going to be so important at that. time of year, planning, and letting your child know it's okay to spend time with their other parent.

Starting point is 00:17:08 That's so important. We don't want our children having that guilt, and they often carry that guilt around the holidays because they're trying to make everyone happy. They should be free to spend time with whoever's family they want for the time they want. And the reality is kids don't know half the time whether Christmas is the 25th of December or the 28th. So if you don't celebrate necessarily how you used to on Christmas or a birthday, do the same. Do the same. celebration the next day. Make it just as exciting and special for your child so they know that they're still valued. My parents still love me just as much. I still get to celebrate just as much. But hey, I'm lucky now. I get two Christmases, two birthdays. Find the joy in a situation that's

Starting point is 00:17:48 more unique. Yeah. This is an oversimplification. Obviously, I know it's more complicated than this, but I do think more kids enjoy having Christmas week than Christmas Day, right? Or Absolutely. Can we draw this out long? I still celebrate birthday week. Totally. Okay. What about communicating with your children? Communicating, like, when, what to share, when to not overshare. Like, how do we communicate with our children about how this new family is going to look? Because it's still their parents, but it's a new arrangement. So how do you communicate or set that up as well as you can with your children? It's such a confusing time and it really comes down to the age and the stage of development,

Starting point is 00:18:39 the maturity of children. A lot of parents come to me and they have this idea of we need to sit down together as a family. We need a family meeting to tell them what's going on. That's not true. And if you're separating, you're divorcing, it's high conflict, you probably can't sit down as a family and jointly tell them what's going on because you have different opinions and you probably don't agree with the reason behind the separation or what's the plan moving forward. So my view is you do need to tell your children. I've had too many people who continue living in the same house and live in this fantasy land of we'll just not tell them. We'll live together. We'll be separated. They'll think everything's okay. Kids know.

Starting point is 00:19:19 Kids pick up on everything from body language to communication. They know when mom and dad are fighting, they know when mum and dad are sleeping in separate bedrooms and no longer have that love. They don't hold hands anymore. They don't sit next to each other at a table. They don't smile at each other. Why would we put our children through that growing up thinking, that's normal? What's normal is, I personally think, parents living in different homes who are happy, enjoying life, doing things that make them happy. And that is an example of a happy, healthy parent to then model, you know, what an adult should look like, what life should look like for their children. So when you're telling your children, they don't need to know the ins and outs of what happened.

Starting point is 00:19:58 It could have been the worst affair. There might be a high conflict dynamic. Someone's probably done something really awful. Your kids don't need to know that. Because as soon as you start putting onto your children the reason behind the separation and how awful their other parent is, they start to say, hang on. If you think my other parent is so bad, you mustn't like part of me because I'm part of that parent. I'm 50% one parent, 50% the other parent.

Starting point is 00:20:27 Am I the bad one? Do I have some of that in me? So the biggest thing, and I know it's hard because I do it myself, I'll do the occasional eye roll when my son says something about his dad and then I stop myself and I say, oh, that wasn't good because he's picked up that whatever he's just told me didn't sit well with me. And these things are always going to happen and we can only learn from them. So first thing, don't let them know what's going on.

Starting point is 00:20:50 To really reassure your children about their future, they are scared. It wouldn't matter if they're five years old or 15. They want to know what's happening. Am I moving house? Am I going to have to find new friends? Can I not be the same soccer team? Am I changing school? So that reassurance is really important.

Starting point is 00:21:08 Whatever the plan's going to be, they're at the forefront. We love you. We're going to do our best to keep things stable and secure for you. Same school. If you can stay in the house, great. If you can't. We're moving to a new house. How exciting is that?

Starting point is 00:21:20 bedroom, new sheets, pick some new toys, we'll decorate it how you want. You don't want your emotion coming into it. So if you are moving homes, I'm sure it is causing you lots of grief. It is one of the most difficult periods of your life. But don't share it with your child because they will carry that grief and that guilt. They often then start thinking, is it my fault? Did I cause this? Was I the reason for my parents' separation? So keep them out of it. As much as you can mask your emotion from them to protect them. They don't need to be involved. They're not now your best friend.

Starting point is 00:21:54 I've seen too many clients, you know, taking their kids on coffee dates and letting everything out. You know, your dad did this. I'm not getting my child support. We're not going on a holiday because your dad said no. And I do put some of those examples of my book and I say, I get it. It was hard. Stop.

Starting point is 00:22:09 Stop. Because that will impact your child. So much of social science tells us that it's a child's experience. experience of their parent separation and how much they're involved, what they heard, what they were told, what they saw that impacts their future, their relationships when they're married, when they have boyfriends, girlfriends, partners, and then when they start to parent. And so I think if there's one thing anyone can take away is remember that. What I'm doing now will impact them later. Their little brains are picking up on everything that they're being taught and that will impact

Starting point is 00:22:43 the way they do things when they're adults. There were so many, like, mic drop important points in there, and you hit a few personal pet peeves of mine. For example, as a pet peeve of mine, when people call their kids, their BFFs or, like, my best friends, like, they're going to have lots of friends. You should have lots of friends. They're only going to ever have one person who birthed them.

Starting point is 00:23:10 Like, why minimize the relationship you have? calling it something else. It doesn't elevate the relationship in my mind. It minimizes it. And the idea that we would share with our children as if they were our best friends is just mind blasting to me. You also said on the onset of that that I want to reiterate that kids are way more aware than we think. That is also a personal belief of mine. I think they notice. I think they pick up on. I think they know what's going on no matter what we say so much more than we think. And I also believe that we all, but kids especially, learn through experience and observation best. We can tell somebody something until we're a blue in the face, but we learn best through experience

Starting point is 00:23:53 and observation. And so when we think of the relationships we want our children to have, when we think of the desire that I think all of us have to see our children in healthy relationships, no matter what the status is, healthy, right, would be my first choice. And so I feel, personally obligated to do my best to demonstrate the healthiest relationship that I can. And if I can't do that with the person I thought I could, then it is in my best, my child's best interest to do that in a different way. And again, this is my personal bias because anecdotally, I was raised by parents who got divorced after 50 years of marriage and probably stayed together for 30 of those years. And I put in air quotes for the kids. But as a child in that relationship, I didn't see any benefit. If anything,

Starting point is 00:24:47 it messed me up more than it helped me. So, you know, just feel like there are so many really good points in there that I wanted to reiterate. I have two more questions. One around any thoughts or advice for people who are maybe dating in a co-parent situation or step parents, like not the people who are getting separated, but other adults who come into these relationships and these newly created families, any advice for them? Let's start there. Look, it's tough. I'm repartinent. I've now got a one-year-old with my new partner, so we've got a little blended family, and it's difficult. And I think from the outset, and if I'm trying to put myself in his shoes and what he's had to go through, you know, this might not come across fantastic, but you know what

Starting point is 00:25:39 you're getting yourself into to an extent. Don't date someone with children and with an ex unless you are prepared to be a role model in that child's life because the reality is you're coming into a family. That family exists. Don't try and pretend you will never have to come into contact with the child's parent. You will. Even if those two parents hate each other, you will. There will be a school event. There will be a birthday. There will be some special occasion where you need to show face and smile and pretend everyone likes each other. So don't think that you've found this person, you're going to be together forever and we're going to block out their old life. That's never going to happen. There will always be that other part of life. And I've struggled with that in my own relationship where I say,

Starting point is 00:26:19 I have this past and yes, I'm not with that person anymore, but we are going to still have to be on the phone. We ring each other to talk about our son and his school week and things that are happening. We will text each other. We will share photos. And same for my partner. My ex-husband, I think he struggled with his partner who often says, why are you sending a photos? Why do you guys have to text each other photos? Because that's important to us. I'd like to see what my son's doing on the weekend when I don't have him. A little photo of him at the park makes me happy and vice versa. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is you will be sharing your time with your new partner, the person you are dating. So don't think that this person's going to always be free,

Starting point is 00:26:58 will be able to drop everything for you. They have a child or children. So it's really going to be this dynamic of, you know, there are a lot of memes. I'm dating a single mom so I get my five minutes a month, things like that. And that's the reality of it, you know, a single mom or dad probably has to drop everything for something at school if a child is sick. And they need to be a lot more child focused in the way that they organize dating. It's hard. You know, can I go out at night? Does it have to be a day day? Can I do sleepovers? If I'm going to do sleepovers, where is my child? So there's a lot more to think about. I think dating again after separation is difficult because you're juggling so much. And I know that when you're coming into a new family, it's hard, but it's also high on the person

Starting point is 00:27:39 who's dating. There's that guilt of I want to make my new person, the person I'm dating happy, but is my child okay? Is it the right time? There's just so much to it. Yeah. Okay. My last question is around observing people who are doing this really well. Again, we acknowledge this, it's incredibly hard. It is a two-person thing, so you can do all of the right things and it still might not look good on a social media post or whatever.

Starting point is 00:28:07 But I do observe that there are some people who seem to be navigating this fairly well, at least outside looking in. Maybe they do holidays together, or there seems to be a great deal of support, or like, they even become friends with a new, you know, person in their relationship. from your work and observation,

Starting point is 00:28:31 are there any things that these people are just doing differently that are making all the difference? Are they just more mature or, I don't know, whatever? I think you hit the nail on the head. Is it maturity? I guess it is really being able to take that active step of putting your kids first. I don't know how you do it.

Starting point is 00:28:51 But really, again, it's going to come down then to the dynamic of the entire relationship. So whilst you aren't repartnered, you probably can. If you're saying, I want to do this and your ex is saying, I want to do this, easy. Where two people have made that decision? Once new partners come into it, what's that dynamic like? Is my new partner going to want to hang out with my ex-husband? His new partner.

Starting point is 00:29:14 Is that going to cause some friction? Does my new partner approve the way my ex-husband parents or does things? And will that cause new friction in itself? But then the forefirm, of us, for example, are we mature enough to say, who cares what we all think of each other? Let's do this for the kids. Let's go off on Christmas Day and spend a hour or two together. And we see, as you said, so much of it on social media and particularly celebrity culture. There are so many of them who seem to be doing it so well.

Starting point is 00:29:42 And I use them a lot in my examples. I know they've broken up now, but you had, what is the Dakota Johnson, Gwyneth, they're all best friends. They were all going out together for the sake of their children. And I'd sit back and say, wow, that's cool. I'd love to do that. My son would be so happy. And there have been occasions at his school, for example, we had his Christmas play.

Starting point is 00:30:01 And I went with his dad and partners. And he ran up to a teacher. He's only five. And he said, look, my mom and my dad are here together today. And it melted my heart because I thought, God, this is so special to him. And I don't think I realize that. And so maybe it is, you know, I call them gotcha moments like that. Whereas a parent, you say, wow, for me, this was the worst day ever because we had to all

Starting point is 00:30:24 sit together, but gosh, that was special to him. So maybe I'll keep doing it. Well, I for one, am so grateful that you're doing this work and that you put out this book. When I saw the title alone, I was like, yes, we've got to talk about this. So the book, again, is called the Collaborative Co-Parent. You can get it on Amazon or wherever it is. You buy books. Let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also find Gabriela on Instagram at Gabriella Primere, and we will put all of the links, all the ways to find and follow Gabriella in show notes. And Gabriella, thank you for being our guest and for doing this very important work. Thank you for having me. Honestly, it's been a great conversation. Absolutely my pleasure.

Starting point is 00:31:08 So, friend, let me be clear on where I stand. Am I pro divorce? Yes. If you're in a miserable marriage is wildly and healthy or does more harm than good to anyone and everyone involved, including your kids, yes, then I'm pro-divorce. And I'm also pro-commitment. It's one of my core values. I'm not suggesting you walk away from a marriage just because you hit a tough season or because you're temporarily annoyed.

Starting point is 00:31:34 Because that's not commitment. That's convenience. And commitment still can look different than Till Death-Dew as part. It can also look like prioritizing your kids' well-being over your own pride. Commitment can look like choosing collaboration over pettiness. And it can look like holding boundaries

Starting point is 00:31:51 that protect rather than winning, proving a point, or getting even. We're talking next level maturity here. We're talking holding the line when crossing it would feel so much more satisfying. We're talking about honoring families that work in whatever form they come. Commitment, collaboration, rewriting the rules that work for your family with integrity and intention. That is woman's work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The Collaborative Co-Parent (How To Put Your Kids First) with Gabriella Pomare | 401

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