This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The Power of Positive Social Media: Insights from Upworthy's Lucia Knell | 261

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

In this episode of This Is Woman’s Work, we dive into building a healthy online environment—for yourself, your community, and the greater good. Our guest, Lucia Knell, Vice President of Upworthy and author of Good People: Stories From the Best of Humanity, shares her insights on harnessing social media for positivity and connection. Upworthy is known for uplifting and inspiring content, and Lucia has spent her career advocating for using the internet as a tool to unite rather than divide. Lucia’s expertise has driven millions of social media engagements and inspired a movement to combat negativity online. Beyond her work, she’s an advocate for mental health and believes in the power of digital detoxes—something I wholeheartedly support.  Takeaway: It’s hard to be what you don’t see, but when you look for the good and share it, positivity becomes contagious. The world needs more good, and so do you—so let it in, share it, and watch it grow. Connect with Lucia:  Website:  https://www.upworthy.com/  Book: https://books.disney.com/book/upworthy-good-people-stories-from-the-best-of-humanity/  IG: https://www.instagram.com/upworthy/  Related Podcast Episodes: Loneliness And The Value Of Connection with Kasley Killam F*@! Social Media with Nicole Kalil Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

I am Nicole Kalil, and I have been on almost a two-year social media hiatus. And friend, it has been glorious. Over the last two years, I've posted exactly once. And that was to share that the This Is Woman's Work podcast had made it into the top 10 of the Apple podcast charts. So that felt like a big enough deal to break my hiatus. But that means I've spent none of my time in 2023 or 2024 thinking about content, writing copy, doing photo shoots, or strategizing posts. I figure that it saved me at least 10 hours a week, over 500 hours a year, or thousands of dollars per month if I had somebody else doing it for me. I've never posted

on TikTok or Twitter. I checked LinkedIn occasionally, and I go on Facebook and Instagram for exactly four reasons. One, to get caught up. Two, to like and support other women's content. Three, to see the feel-good stories. And four, to share sarcastic and funny memes in my Instagram stories that often have the word fuck in them. And that's because so many people send me all sorts of memes with the word fuck in them. And it feels like they understand my love language and it also warms my heart. So was getting off of social media a smart business decision for me? I don't know, maybe not, but I can tell you that I'm getting much better results, making easier sales, and I am far more efficient since I've redirected my 10

plus hours a week that I was on social media to things that feel far more productive and far less draining. I get emails every week from people sharing that my weekly newsletter is the only one that they read religiously because I put time and thought and energy into it now. This podcast has grown exponentially because I'm no longer treating it like a side project and much more like a passion project than it is. And I feel infinitely better. But I haven't canceled any of my accounts. I still check almost daily, though I limit myself to once a day. I hesitate to get off of social media entirely for a variety of reasons, but chief among them is what I hope is a healthier version of FOMO. I hate the idea of missing the best content,

the videos that make me cry, the stories that warm my heart, the examples of everyday heroes, the memes that make me laugh so hard water comes out of my nose, the quotes that make me think, and even better, the quotes that make me act differently because there is good out there.

But first you gotta find it and then you need to commit to it. Like unfollowing or muting content that sucks the life out of you, not falling into the comment trap or the comparison trap or the judgment trap. You got to protect your energy and curate an online environment that supports you. And I don't mean following only people who think just like you, but to find the people who challenge your thinking without damaging your spirit. So today we're going to talk about you creating a healthy online environment for you, for your people, for your energy, and for the greater good. Lucia Nell is our guest and is the vice president of Upworthy, which you may

know for its positive and uplifting content on social media. Lucia has spent her career championing the belief that the internet can and should be used as a tool to unite people instead of dividing them. Her expertise in social media has garnered millions of engagements and catalyzed a movement to combat negativity online. An ardent advocate for mental health, she also believes in the power of taking breaks from the internet, which you know I can appreciate. Lucia is also a dancer, choreographer, FM radio enthusiast, and enjoys cheering people on at marathons. So I love that. Lucia, thank you so much for being here. I want to first ask you why you believe and from your experience, why seeing and sharing the best that humanity has to offer, why it matters and how it actually impacts and affects people.

For sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me, Nicole. We need to hang out. I know that you're on the East Coast and I'm on the West Coast, but even hearing you talk about memes that say fuck, I just think we are spiritually aligned in many ways. I know that's not very upworthy, but it's very Lucia, so I think we can all acknowledge that social media, you know, gets a really bad rap for making you feel worse about the world and making you feel divided and making you feel this sense of if everything's negative, if all I'm seeing are fear baiting headlines and rage baiting headlines and comment sections that make you feel scared and horrible, then what's the point of getting out of bed? You know, it's like we have these tiny little computers on us all the time. Most people I would venture to guess aren't as mindful and boundaried as you are with their social media use, myself included, sometimes it's changed a lot which i'll talk about in a little bit but again we're sort of um subconsciously subject to the powers that be that keep us hooked on this content and it's no one's fault it's just sort of the world we live in now and so i think there's a lot to be said about you know manage first of, taking account of how we engage with these platforms, but then managing that and taking a little bit of accountability for how our behavior can impact

how we're impacted by social. The reason Upworthy exists is to create a counter narrative to what you're seeing all the time on social and, you know, in mainstream media, you know, chances are you turn on the news and the headlines 90% of the time are things that make you feel terrified. And then it sort of leaves you in a lurch again around this idea of then what's the point, you know, and from a mental health standpoint, that's deadly for sure. And so we've created this community online full of millions and millions of people on Instagram alone. We have 5 million people, which we're so proud of. That acts as just a balance to what's going on. It's not to say that

we encourage sticking your head in the sand, We encourage seeing the world through rose-colored glasses and not acknowledging that there are very real problems in the world. But we like to offer solutions and highlight people doing things to actually solve those problems. So we're leaving people with a sense of hope and we're leaving people with a sense of motivation to go out and be the change, so to speak. The other piece of it, to your point earlier, is we show stories of things that connect us to our shared humanity. And media doesn't typically do that. It's reinforcing these ideas that divide us further or that tap into our sense of anger or rage. And so by providing a narrative that's counter to that of showing all the good in the world that you're not seeing in mainstream media, it provides an environment that allows people to feel open and allows people to

feel loving and supportive and vulnerable. And it's really rare to find that on the internet. And I'll talk about our comment sections in a second, because that's sort of like our, our prize crown jewel that we've created. Um, because it's just so different than what you tend to see. It's so different. I mean, I try really hard not to click on comments on a lot of things nowadays, because I mean, God, talk about falling down the rabbit hole of rage. It's not great. Yeah. No, but, and I do want to talk about your comment section because it is wildly different, but I want to circle back on something you said with the algorithm and with what you're paying attention to and with the idea that they want us to feel something.

And it's just as easy to get us to feel rage or anger or whatever. It's probably easier to get us to feel that, that it is uplifted or whatever. But is it true that, especially social media, we almost create these realities for ourselves because the algorithm is going to push out more of what we see and we're going to see more of what we believe and we're going to get more of what we believe reinforced. And so we almost like you get two people in two different parts of the country that look at two different things and they're getting two completely different, and I put in air quotes, realities when they go on social media.

A, is that true? Absolutely. I mean, it's like, again, it's these social media platforms, they're running a business. You know, it's like their goal. Again, while there's a lot of good with Upworthy and other platforms that do similar things, their goal is to get people staying on the platform. Like it's better for these businesses and these outlets to get someone to stay on TikTok for three hours

than to set a boundary and say, enough, you know? I need to get back to the present moment. I need to like make eye contact with my friend when I'm at dinner. I need to spend time with my kids in the real world and not on my freaking phone. And it's absolutely true. It's there's a really freaky thing that if you go on Google in different parts of the country, okay, and you start to, you know, Google specific things around like politics, and then it tracks what you click on, that it starts to serve you things that it knows that you're going to keep clicking on. And at some point, it creates different realities and different narratives based on the echo chamber that you're exposing yourself to. And that's a very clear example of how the internet can be used to divide us further. It's not tapping into our sense of

shared humanity. And I say all the time, it's like, at the end of the day, we all kind of want the same things, right? It's like, safety, shelter, you know, economic security, community, neighbors, things that make us feel human. And that has nothing to do with where you come from, your socioeconomic status, your political beliefs, race, sex, gender, all of the things. And I'm so proud of what we created on Upworthy because we share this content that, again, taps into the things that we all have in common in a moment of real divisiveness. Like, I think, you know, it's in my bio, and I include that for a reason, which is I think we've strayed so far from the founding principles of what the internet was meant to be, which is to

connect us, and which is to share, you know, connect us to friends and family and make us closer. But the more these platforms have developed over the years, with echo chambers, with creating different realities and sort of siloing us into different belief systems, it's done the complete opposite. And it's a tragedy. Right. Well, and then wouldn't it be fair to say, though, then if we follow accounts like Upworthy and engage with them and like them, that the algorithm would then therefore spit more of that type of content out at us. And then also, you said this earlier, but I just want to reiterate, when I see something uplifting or heartwarming on social media in the day, it makes me better for my day. I feel like I start my day from a

place of there's good in the world, as opposed to starting my day full of rage and feeling like everybody's an idiot and all the stuff that, you know. Okay. So let's talk about your comment section. How did you curate a mostly positive environment? Then how do you deal with when somebody tries to take it the other direction? The comment section isn't curated. It was born on its own. The audience did that. And to your point, it's reacting to things that make people feel good and open their perspective on the idea that the world is actually full of good people. You're just not seeing them on the news. And you're just not seeing them on social media.

Because to your point, rage baiting headlines are clickier. Is clickier a word? I just made it up. I know you meant. It's a word now, honey. And we have created a platform and a hub, so to speak, where we're gathering all the stories for you. We're gathering all of these things that we're coming across saying more people need to see this. And we've built this audience because there's a need for it, which is so beautiful and also sad, kind of, because again, it doesn't exist in other places. And so we've created this environment whereby people know they can come to it, and it'll change their outlook on the world for the better. Because of that, it's actually enabled people in this such a beautiful way to feel comfortable opening up in the comment section. And this is kind of how our book came to be, which we'll talk about in a second. But this book was born because the comment section or many people in the comment section will say, this reminds me of my neighbor or this reminds me of my story. Or this was 40 years ago and I will never forget this guy that changed my life. I'll never forget this neighbor that influenced me for the better. And so people will post those comments. And then from those

comments, other people will start to react to that story. And it'll create a conversation based on love, based on curiosity, based on support, based on, you know, genuine interest in someone else's story. And it's just so rare to find that on the internet. So I like this phrase that I use all the time, which is, read the comments, we read the comments. And you'll also see comments on our page that say, I came here to read the comments, which is just like the most beautiful thing. It's like, what? That doesn't exist on the internet, except for here. It's very rare we get a troll on the page, but inevitably, you know, we'll post, yes, you know, we have lovely, heartwarming

things on the page, but we also have values. And we also have values, rather. So we are pro-LGBTQ. And so we'll celebrate pride. We'll celebrate a kid coming out to his dad and the dad reacting positively and showing, you know, queer joy versus like a sad story of a guy not accepting his kid. It's like showing possibilities for how people can be. Inevitably, you'll get someone who kind of trolls it or says something horrible or inappropriate and again the audience sort of takes care of it themselves we don't even need to they'll say this isn't the place for that you know or upworthy is not the place for that go somewhere

else right and again it's a bit like my my co and I, Gabe, we'll say something like that. Obviously, if it's like horrendous, we'll remove it. But it's also a beautiful thing. And he'll say like, just wait, let the audience take care of it. And I think that's actually way more impactful than us just like hiding a comment, you know, because it speaks to the values that the audience stands for as well. Yeah. I love that you said that because I think that can be a little bit hard as, uh, I don't know, people I think get really pissed off when somebody shares a value of theirs, if it doesn't agree. And it's like, I think we need to be way more open to other people's ideas and perspectives. But more importantly than that, as the owner of the account, our values are our values. I think it's just important to make the point that your values are important as you create a page and that you can stick to them and still remain positive, uplifting, and welcoming. And not everybody's going to agree, but that's still your value. Exactly. I mean, in fact, I think showing that we can be a page that makes you feel uplifted, et cetera, no matter what you believe, where you

come from, et cetera, but also having values helps us with, you know, helps us espouse our integrity as a brand. We're not spineless. We have beliefs and our beliefs are, you know, inclusion. Everyone should be included. Everyone has a right to the same things that, you know, someone different than you has a right to. And so I think the difference and the reason we're able to retain so many audience members actually that might disagree is because we're not finger waggy about it. We're just, we're not, we're showing, not telling. And so again, what I said before, the example of a dad accepting his kid when he comes, the kid is like terrified of coming out to his dad and the dad, and I can send this to you later. But like the dad responds unexpectedly with pure love saying, come give me a hug. And so again, by showing a video

of the possibility of what this could look like of leading with empathy of leading with inclusion of leading with love for your kid, regardless of how they identify. It's inviting someone into a perspective and a viewpoint that maybe they never thought about in that way. Again, I think there's so much divisive rhetoric, even with these really important issues where it's like, screw you, screw you if you don't believe this. And that's not the way to get someone to change their mind. It just isn't. Right. So you put all of these amazing, powerful, positive stories out into the world. What are you learning about what people are craving today? I don't know if there are categories that you're noticing or certain types of feelings or whatever, but you're putting so much out there and you have

exposure to so many millions of people. Yeah. I'm curious, you're putting so much out there and you have exposure to so many millions of people. Yeah. I'm curious what you're seeing as far as, I don't know if themes are the right word, but like, no, that's right. Yeah. I think, um, again, thinking of it through the things that we all have in common, it's like, if you have a beating heart, you can relate to most of the stuff on this page again. So the themes are people love babies, people love grandparents, people love dogs. Yeah, absolutely. People have stories of unexpected friendships. People love showing up for their neighbors.

You know, these values of acceptance tolerance empathy leading with love um things that make you laugh I think that's really important it's like something you know to your point with memes I mean I'm a huge meme fan it's like all you know half the time on Instagram I'm just sharing memes with my friends that are like that make me crack up it's a beautiful thing. That's also a huge benefit of the Internet. It's like it allows us to share these things that you can like really relate to or, you know, someone immediately comes to mind being like, oh, my God, my friend was just talking about this with like something at work. They need to see this. of fits into that same ethos of if you can find things that someone can relate to on a personal level, but especially if it makes you laugh, it's delightful. It's a delightful aspect of social

media. Yep. So I want to talk about the book, but before I do, I would love if you have any advice for how we can, you know, curate our social media feed or make choices that will actually enhance our wellbeing. So should we choose to go on social media? We create an opportunity for more positive than negative. What advice do you have there? For sure. I mean, I think I would be remiss to not talk about boundaries with social media. Again, this is someone who created a gigantic account on social media. It's like boundaries are more important than ever. And so I think being able to A, start to notice behaviors and start to do somewhat of an audit on how reliant you are on social media to go about your day to day, how much you're using it, maybe as a distraction, how

much time you're using it, where suddenly, you know, I'm on my couch, and I'm on TikTok, and three hours goes by, and I'm like, what's happening here? And so taking an audit on that. And then to your point, curating a feed that makes you feel uplifted versus defeated and downtrodden. Again, it's not to say to stick your head in the sand about news and current events and things that are happening. But I really mean, you know, if something is consistently in your feed that is like super alarmist, and tapping into that vulnerability of like fear, maybe don't get your news from that outlet. Maybe get it somewhere else, you know? Think about- Yeah, neutral news.

That's what I'm looking for is like, give me information. Don't tell me what I should think or feel about it. Exactly. Balance, you know? And that's also where these, you know, it gets a little sticky with commentators or talking heads that believe one thing so ardently and again, are just reinforcing these ideas that are so myopic and not opening your eyes to different perspectives. just tracking how it affects your body. It's like when I'm scrolling through my feed, something comes up where suddenly it starts to tap into comparison habits or comparison issues. I'm like, I have the choice to unfollow this person. I have the choice to unfollow this celebrity or influencer that I know is probably the highlight reel of their life, but is making me feel bad about my body, about how much money I make, about, you know, my timeline for having kids or getting married or all of the things. And again, taking accountability for like, I don't have to follow any of these people. I love doing a cleanse as it were a social media cleanse. It feels so good to just be like, this is in my power to choose what makes me feel like myself and what makes

me feel like my best self. And, you know, maybe it's following accounts based on your hobbies. Maybe you love pottery or ceramics or dance or painting, and you're inspired by those. That's great. You know? And so doing, I think, doing an audit on your social media feed and how it makes you feel, et cetera. Yes, totally. So I just want to do a quick plug for Upworthy on Instagram or go to upworthy.com to learn more about all of the good news that's happening there. And then there's the book, Good People, Stories from the Best of Humanity. Maybe pick that up instead of your phone.

Lucia, will you tell us just quickly about the book of humanity. Maybe pick that up instead of your phone. Lucia, will you tell us just quickly about the book? Absolutely. So this book came about because my co-creator and I noticed, you know, what we talked about earlier, that our comment section was just full of beautiful, beautiful stories. And we got curious. And so sometimes we'll ask these questions to the audience of like, what's the kindest thing a stranger ever did for you? And just like, let it rip and see what happens. And again, we would get 1000s and 1000s of comments. And we would start taking screenshots and texting them to each other, being like, this should be a book. You know, and the reason we say a book is because what's frustrating about

social media is you can read a really beautiful comment or you can see a really beautiful story, and then it's gone. It's like this fleeting nature of social media that's capitalizing on our attention every freaking millisecond sweeps it away. And so we were like, what if there were a format for this, where we could preserve the stories that people should be reminded of all the time, or that they're so impactful, they should be, you know, again, preserved in a medium that requires you to like, sit down for a second and focus. And so then we were like, oh yeah, that's, that's called a book. Like, so we ended up going, so we ended up asking six questions, which are now the chapters in this book ranging from, you know, what's, who's the

teacher, who's that teacher who changed your life? What's something a kid said that made you feel hope for the future? What's a time you experienced kindness from a stranger when you were abroad, when you didn't speak the same language? What's the time someone showed up for you when you needed it most when you were down and out? And then what is a little thing that actually made a huge difference in your life? I love that. It's really great. And everyone had a story, crazy, crazy, amazing, beautiful stories. And they were like three sentences. And Gabe and I went through every single comment. And we picked out a handful of them, DM to these people in our audience and said,

hey, we're putting a book together. Can we interview you and learn more about the story? So we ended up interviewing 99 people, probably more than that, but ended up with 99 stories and building them out into short stories. We worked with a handful of amazing writers, though I have a story in the book, Gabe also has a story in the book, and building these out into beautiful short stories that make up the 300 pages that this book became. I can't wait to read it. I'm going to leave that one on my desk. Oh, yeah. I mean, to be fair, it's a great coffee table book. It's a great bedside table read. Our hope is that it'll help people shape their mindset

towards a better world without having to look at a screen. Lucia, thank you so much for being here today and for putting out so much good in the world. Again, friends, it's Upworthy and the book is Good People. Get your hands on both. Lucia, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Nicole. This is awesome.

Okay, friend, I want you to think for just a minute how much time you're spending online. And my guess is it's far more than you actually think. Then ask yourself, how do you feel during those hours? Is it mostly uplifted, mostly encouraged, mostly informed? Or is it mostly annoyed, mostly discouraged, or mostly feeling like someone has something you don't so you're left wondering what's wrong with you? And I'm going to challenge you to pay attention to your energy and mute anyone who drains any of it for an entire month. You can

always unmute them after, but notice what happens over those 30 days. Don't get sucked into a comment war. Set a timer so you don't go unconscious and wonder where you just went and what you just did with the last 30 minutes of your life. Pick an action or two that would help you and test it out for 30 days. And then look for the good. Because it's hard to be what you don't see. But when you look for good, when you see it, it's much easier to be it. And the world needs more good. I bet you do too. Let the good in, then put it back out and then watch it come back again because it is contagious. Put good into the world. That is woman's work.