This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - The Wellness Disconnect with Patricia Grabarek, PhD & Katina Sawyer, PhD | 296

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Workplace wellness is broken. Free snacks, ping-pong tables, yoga-at-lunch—none of it actually works if your workplace culture is toxic or disconnected. So what does create a thriving, healthy work environment? According to today’s guests, it starts with leadership—and it’s a lot less about perks and a lot more about people. We’re diving deep into the real future of workplace wellness with Dr. Patricia Grabarek and Dr. Katina Sawyer, co-founders of Workr Beeing and co-authors of the book Leading for Wellness: How to Create a Team Culture Where Everyone Thrives. These two powerhouse I/O psychologists have spent their careers studying what actually works when it comes to employee well-being, team dynamics, and leadership. Spoiler alert: most wellness programs are missing the mark completely. Workplace wellness doesn’t start with nap pods or smoothie bars—it starts with people feeling seen, heard, and valued. If you’re a leader, this episode is your wake-up call. If you’re not a leader, it’s your permission to want more than burnout and survival. Connect with Patricia & Katina:  Website: https://workrbeeing.com Book:  https://workrbeeing.com/book/ Podcast: https://workrbeeing.com/podcast/ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patriciagrabarek/ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katina-sawyer-ph-d/ Related Podcast Episodes: Belonging (At Work) with Dr. Beth Kaplan | 286 Toxic Productivity with Israa Nasir | 254 Who’s Entitled Now?! with Dr. Jessica Kriegel | 237 Visit CozyEarth.com and use my exclusive code TIWW for 40% off best-selling sheets, towels, pajamas, and more.  Check out Happy Mammoth and use code POWERFUL for a great deal: https://happymammoth.com Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

Hi, I'm Nicole Kahlil, and you're listening to the This Is Women's Work podcast, where we cover a whole gamut of topics in an effort to work together to redefine what it means, what it looks and what it feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And given the multifaceted experiences, goals, lifestyles, and life stages of today's woman, that means we talk about everything. Work, home, relationships, self-development, things that make us angry and things that bring us joy, the things that impact you individually and the things that impact us collectively. And today, we're talking about workplace wellness, a billion dollar industry that's become a playground

for trendy perks. Meditation apps, wellness stipends, yoga in the break room, which is great and I'm sure well intentioned, but employees are still drowning in burnout, stress, and toxic cultures. Turns out handing somebody a stress ball doesn't magically erase the stress of unrealistic expectations, lack of support, or a culture that rewards overwork.

Shocking, right? But here's the thing. Workplace wellness as we know it is about to implode. The future of a healthy workplace isn't in Trendy Perks or yet another employee survey that no one actually does anything with. According to our guests, it's in going back to the basics, creating a culture where people actually want to be. Sounds simple and kind of obvious, right? And yet, far too cultures have cracked that code. And leaders have far more power and existing resources to improve wellness than they might even realize if they just stop outsourcing the problem to HR or band-aiding solutions and start

fixing these core and maybe basic issues. So that's exactly what we're getting in today with Dr. Patricia Grubarik, co-founder of Worker Being. She's an industrial organizational psychologist who has spent her career helping organizations move past superficial wellness initiatives and actually build workplaces that support human beings. She's been featured everywhere from CBS News to the LA Times for her insights on workplace culture, leadership, and employee engagement. And we also have Dr. Katina Sawyer joining us, another powerhouse in this space, professor at the University of Arizona and an expert in workplace behavior, diversity,

and leadership. Between them, they've worked with countless organizations, published research that challenges outdated leadership norms, and are here to drop some hard truths about the future of workplace wellness. And together, they co-wrote the book Leading for Wellness, How to Create a Team Culture Where Everyone Thrives, a no-fluff, science-backed guide for leaders who actually want to create a workplace

where people don't secretly fantasize about quitting every day. So, Patricia, Katina, thank you for being here. And let's start with what you are saying that organizations are getting wrong about their approach to wellness. Well thank you so much for having us, first of all, very excited to be here. And what you talked about is exactly right in terms of what organizations are doing wrong. They're focusing on these band-aid solutions. They're spending money on perks around well-being,

whether that's like you mentioned, yoga in the break room or meditation apps, which are all great, but people don't have the time or capacity to actually take advantage of those perks. And instead of focusing on the root causes of why people are not doing well at work. So what organizations need to do is they need to shift the way they're thinking about workplace wellness and create a culture instead that allows employees to thrive. And as you mentioned already, that's really in the hands of leaders. Leaders have a lot of power to create an environment where employees can do great work, feel productive and effective at work, but then leave work and have thriving personal lives as well. Okay, so you mentioned a little bit already

what it is that employees are looking for, but can we dive a little deeper into that, you know, based on your research, based on organizations and employees across so many different industries, what are some of the commonalities or things that employees really actually care about that really make them want to be at work when

they're there? Yeah, it's a great question and something we really focused on. As researchers, we love definitions and one of our hunches when we first started doing this research was, well, maybe the reason that employees aren't getting what they want out of these workplace wellness programs is companies hear wellness, they think something, employees might be thinking something different, and those might be misaligned. And so one of the primary or initial questions that we asked when we delved into our research was what do people mean when they say they want their workplace to support their wellness? What are the components that

make people walk away from their work environment and say, wow, I feel really healthy and happy being here? And we found that there were actually four. One is a physical health component, which is not just about, you know, do I have time to exercise or do I have resources to make physical activity better? But do I have actual time to cope with my own or others' illnesses? Or are there time periods where I'm going through treatment and I need to know that my workplace is going to cover for me? So it's going sort of beyond this idea of just physical activity. We also found that mental health was very important for people similarly, not just a

mention that the workplace cares about mental health or saying, oh yeah, we have a benefit where you could call a telehealth therapist or something like that, but rather that people felt like their mental health challenges were recognized in the workplace and that they were able to be open and honest about those and find ways to work around them. Can I just jump in on that real quick too? I also think, you tell me if I'm off base, but there's also a component of not having your workplace be the one that's causing your mental health issues

in the first place. Like, yes, it's wonderful if you provide me, you know, a therapist or some telehealth or whatever, but when I have to show up to those appointments and talk about how badly I'm being treated at work or how much it's draining me, like it's like, yes, provide the resources, but for the love of all things, holy, first and foremost, don't create an environment that makes, sends people right to therapy. Yes.

Yes. 100% that's accurate. So it's also about creating an environment that's less likely to make these situations worse or to provoke them in the first place. And you're also touching on something that has to do with the third component, which is emotional health.

And this is not just being able to feel that a broad range of emotions are acceptable to display in the workplace, which is something that came up. But it's also this idea that I'm not in a workplace that's constantly stressing me. If you ever want to get a sense of how stressed people are at a baseline in a workplace, run a workplace retreat where you ask people to just start sharing things they're struggling with.

And the same people who were just on Zoom calls will go from normal to crying in like 20 minutes, right? So we see it all the time that there's a lot simmering beneath the surface that people are trying to stuff down and hide. And so having less of that is also quite important. And the last is having a sense of work-life balance. And we can delve a little bit deeper later on potentially, if you'd like, into what we mean by balance. But it's basically this idea that you feel a harmony between your work and life. And I want to just clarify with that. When we say work-life balance, I think a lot of times that brings to mind women. Women talk about work-life balance a lot, but is this pretty general in your findings, regardless of gender? Yes, we see everybody wants work-life balance.

And the thing that's really important to note about work-life balance is that it's individual to the person. So what you mean by balance can be different than what somebody else means, right? So if you have kids, maybe balance means you have more time with your children. If you don't, maybe balance means you have more time to do a hobby or something else that you want to do. Or maybe in certain parts of your life, balance actually means more work than time outside of work because that's what you want to focus on.

You're an entrepreneur, you're trying to grow in your career and that's something that you care about and that matters to you. So it's not like a 50-50 split. It's really just what makes you feel like you're in balance and makes you feel whole and where you want to be in your life. And one more thing I might build on that because it's fun when we get to talk about gender on a podcast that focuses around that. But this is not from our research, but this is from research in our field. Women are much more likely to be targeted by products,

ads, things that people try to sell you to feel like you're in balance. So like, you'll be in balance if you just like sign up for this yoga subscription and drink this smoothie. And you know, and that's all, some of those things may be your thing, but a lot of them may not be your thing. And so really getting back to basics of expectations, what are expectations that you've internalized as a woman about

who you're supposed to be, what you're supposed to prioritize versus what's actually you is a little bit more challenging because we're sent a lot more messages about what our lifestyle should look like and prioritizing family over everything, but then also having this, you know, career. So I think that's challenging. And I'll say one more thing when we talk about work life balance to women, they tend to feel stronger feelings of guilt. So even after going through a session on work life balance, when we talk about it like a skill, like it's your problem, if you feel out of balance, go fix it as opposed to an environmental problem, the workplace needs to change. Women actually

have negative emotions and experience feelings of guilt and lower feelings of wanting to be leaders in the future after getting these messages about work-life balance as being an individual responsibility. And I feel like we're going to keep piggybacking this topic as something we're passionate about. But in a lot of research and when I've worked with organizations doing engagement surveys and different things like that too, what we see is that while work-life balance matters for everyone and everybody wants it, women tend to score lower on those items. We tend to see that women have a harder time finding the balance.

A couple of places I've worked, I've actually seen this interesting pattern where women that report to women actually report lower levels of balance. And that is probably due to the fact that they're seeing more senior women having less balance. And then kind of panicking about that and trying to think about like, how can I be that person if I want to be a VP or whatever, but I already don't feel in balance. So that kind of exacerbates that emotion about it. So we see that in general, women tend to score lower and tend to feel less balanced. And that's because of what the things Katina talked about the societal pressures to do kind of everything as a woman.

Yeah. Everything you're saying aligns so much with my personal experience and my experience in talking and interacting with so many women. When I talk about the mission of this podcast, I always say our goal is together redefine what it means to be doing woman's work with you as the decider, meaning that each of us get to decide what it looks like for us to be doing woman's work. And it's whatever feels true and real and right for you, which is meant to be empowering, but I find can be really overwhelming and exhausting because we're so used to societal pressures,

other people's expectations, other people's opinions that we've become disconnected and detached from what that even means for ourselves. So that can feel like a tricky thing to even begin to navigate. And then on top of that, as you said, it was a different guest and now I can't remember who it was, but she was talking about how the younger generations of women are almost kind of moving away from this idea of wanting to put, and I put air quotes, have it all, because they're watching their moms and these trailblazing women do

it and it looks exhausting and painful and not at all interesting to them. I don't think most of us are doing what we're doing specifically to inspire the next generation. But I do think we should be paying attention if what we're doing looks so unattractive to people that they're like, thanks but no thanks. Totally. And that's exactly what we were seeing in that research, right? Women reporting to women, lower work-life balance, because they're seeing that next level, that next person, and that looks unattractive because they're working hours that are unsustainable. They don't spend that much time with their kids. Maybe the person

that's watching wants to do that. So I think we're setting expectations that are unrealistic. But going back to the systems, the organizations aren't structured in a way to help support people having it all. We want employees, like organizations want employees to be there all the time, be always on, be paying attention to their email at all hours of the day, you know, working hard. And working hard means a lot of hours usually. It's not just actually working hard

during a specific window of time. There's these expectations in our culture that have been set where people work so many hours, they don't have time outside of work to do any of these personal life things. And so when you're squeezing those things in, your plate is very big, your sleep is very low. And women in particular, I think suffer from that because they're more likely to have that guilt that Katina was talking about. They're more likely to feel that pressure that they're not spending enough time with their kids, they're not spending enough time with their husbands, their family, their whoever, and that is gonna have a bigger impact on them. So we

need to create environments than the organizations that we work in where we're not on all the time and everyone can balance things a little bit better. things a little bit better. Okay. So as you said already, the solution mostly falls at the leadership level. And listen, there are some leaders who are card carrying members of the patriarchy, right? Men and women. But the vast majority of leaders that I've interacted with, meanwhile, they have good intentions. They want to be a good leader and take care of their people.

So I'm gonna give leaders a little bit of the benefit of the doubt here. And I think some of it is like, we're all moving so fast and we're all so busy that we just fall into the trap of doing what's always been done versus thinking about what does my organization and culture need today? So let's identify or can you guys identify some of these more outdated leadership norms

that are damaging to employee wellness? I think we've identified a few already that are kind of in that this is the way it's always been done and people are doing it unconsciously maybe? Yeah, I think so if we wanna start with a couple of them and then maybe I'll kick it to Patricia because we have several that we talk about in the book. But I think the first centers around this ideal worker norm when, and since this is a show that centers largely on gender, we

get to talk about this fun stuff again, exciting. But when jobs were first set up and leaders were first emerging and we were coming up with what the norms were for what leaders should be, they were primarily men who had stay at home wives. And they had the capability and the ability because of all the labor that was happening at home to be always on and to be fully dedicated to the workplace and not be distracted by other things. And all the books from the 1950s that's like, when your husband comes home, make sure you greet him with a smile and a warm meal and all that.

All these needs were taken care of. So the ideal worker norms sort of persisted and have continued to persist around this idea that the ideal worker is someone who has no other distractions outside of work, no life outside of work, and just 100% of their time and energy goes towards work. And that's created some issues and some problems because first of all, one myth that we talk about

is that leaders need to be superheroes, that they have to be those people who never show any emotion or vulnerability or authenticity. They never struggle with anything. They always have the answer. And this comes from this like masculinity, strong, decisive, you know, these masculinity norms that have emerged from having leaders start off as being mostly men. And then this other idea that the amount of time you put in, just solely the time, is a key indicator of your productivity at work. So if you are stoic and decisive and assertive

and all of these things that we learned from the Masculinity Norm Playbook, and you're just always there, always working, constantly sending signals that you're on, well, then you must be a great leader. And that neither of those things is actually true. I just, it blasts my mind that we still buy into this philosophy. First of all, the 40 hour work week was something established in the mid 1900s, right? And with the advancements of technology, AI, all of the things, the idea that we would

have to work the same amount of hours today than we did back then is ludicrous. And then there's so many studies and research. Adam Grant has shared a bunch about the compressed work week or four-day work week or that it doesn't sacrifice productivity. In fact, it increases it in the stolen hours or whatever it's called that happen in a day when people are being asked to work longer than is necessary. It's just, again, fascinating to me that we're holding on so tightly to some of these outdated ideals that you've mentioned. Okay, Patricia,

you are going to add some more. Well, I'll actually double click on a little bit what you said because you're right, there's a ton of data to support that we don't need to work as many hours because there's a lot of wasted time. People, you know, if you go into an office, how much time are you spending in the kitchen making yourself a cup of coffee and then talking to the random person that walks by and, you know, chit chatting between meetings. Like there's a lot of things that you're doing that are not actual like, productivity. Some of those things are important to build a good culture, but in general, we waste time. Our brains don't work that way. We can't focus

fully for that long of a period of time. So having more flexibility in how we work and the hours we work, I think is really important. Just to go back to the norms though, as Katina was talking about this like stoic superhero kind of leader, what we actually find in the research is that if we can break away from that norm and become more vulnerable and actually share our authentic selves and share when we make mistakes, that's a norm too that really needs to die is where we're not allowed to make mistakes. If I'm a leader, I have to be all-knowing, all-perfect, all this, but that's not realistic. And if we can show vulnerability, if we can show the struggles that we have and how we've overcome

them or what we're currently trying to fix and work through, then we have people around us. Our team can rally around us and help us with those struggles. They also start to see themselves as that leader, right? I'm not perfect, but they're not perfect either. I actually can be more likely to aspire to be a leader after I see someone that's more honest with the struggles that they have. So I think the superhero persona, besides it being stoic piece, there's also this level of perfection that we need to move past because the vulnerability and authenticity is what really creates meaningful relationships and connections in the work environment that help us support each other

and drive our results, our goals forward. Yeah, absolutely. In my research on confidence, I found that perfectionism first is the enemy of confidence, but also it creates distance in our relationships. And so what you're saying, authenticity, admitting when you're wrong or going public when you've made a mistake, those things actually build relationship connection and rapport. I know it feels counterintuitive for a lot of us, but the research is clear. So okay, I'm a leader listening in going, okay, I have an idea of what not to do and what the problems might be, and I do care about this.

Where do I start? When I think of workplace wellness, what are some things that I should be doing or should be focusing on to create, again, this healthy culture where people want to be most of the time. Nobody wants to be at work all the time. Sorry, I just don't believe that. But most of the time. I think you're right. People don't want to be at work all the time. Totally normal, right? That's just not the way we want to live our lives. But the one overarching theme that we like to talk about is individualizing support.

As a leader, you need to make sure that the way you're treating your employees is about that person, what their needs are, being flexible for them and what they specifically are dealing with. Underneath that is all the different components of the book. If you need to be vulnerable and authentic to build those relationships, like you said, right? Reduce that distance between yourself as a leader and your employees. Start having real authentic conversations. Then you get to know your employee, which allows you to tailor what you're doing and how you're working with them because you understand who they are.

So kind of everything stems from this idea that you need to individualize your support and building those meaningful relationships is critical to get to the point where you can actually understand how to support your employees more effectively. So agreed. And I love that just the term individualizing support that speaks to me. And let's say I have an organization of 100 people. I can't, as a leader, get to know every single person intimately. What is the solution there? Yeah, I think so that's true. I think you would probably have leaders under you who would be responsible for creating those team subcultures. So really making sure that you're in touch with those folks to help them learn some of the tips that we put out there. How can they better share their struggles? How can they make sure that they're rewarding high quality work, creating a team culture that is going to be positive and reinforcing of people helping

one another with their problems instead of always running to the leader and not just rewarding people putting time in? How do they help employees set and keep boundaries? How do they get to know their team and do that individualized planning? So I think there are things that you can do over time. It might take a while to have lunch with every one of those 100 employees, but even a little gesture like that could be helpful where you're just taking time to do it in batches. But really it's relying on that next level leader down and making sure that they know that coming from the top, that's what you're expecting. It's not that they're going against the grain to do that. We talked to a lot of people in our research who they created these amazing sub climates on their team

Housed within an organization that had a much more toxic bigger climate But it's far easier to create that climate when you're being encouraged to do it right as opposed to having to turn the the You know ship around as an individual manager so I think it's really being clear about the culture you want to set from the top and providing leaders the resources to learn how to do these things well. So it made me think while you were talking, I think a lot of times we think of leaders

impacting followers, but what you're talking about is leaders creating more leaders, right? And there's just that demonstrating leadership with a few and then making those few demonstrate it. So they demonstrate leadership with the next few. And then basically everyone in the culture gets touched by somebody, but it might not be the one leader at the top, right?

Exactly, yes. You're 100% right. So we work in these hierarchical organizations where someone at the top may have hundreds, thousands of employees that are in their chain, and it's just not realistic to have that individual support. But if your leaders can do that and then their leaders can do that until you get to that individual contributor, right? All these leaders are practicing those behaviors. And then let's say I'm a manager kind of at the lower level and I'm getting a need from an employee that needs some flexibility that's maybe unusual for our organization. I can then go to my leader and say, Hey, I'm going to be doing this. Is that okay? And now you know you have that broader support. So if you're able to build that

entire organization around this culture, you're in a great spot, right? Where everyone's getting supported based on who they are and what they need because they have managers that are doing that. But you're right, as a high level leader, more senior leader, you need to be building that culture and holding your leaders accountable and checking in with some of their direct reports from time to time. How can you understand how they're experiencing that leader without talking to them, right? So you do have to put in a little bit of effort with the next level down.

Yeah, yeah, good point on that too. Okay, so out of curiosity, I think, so I'm big on fairness and equity, very important to me. And then when you think about individualized support, you may have one person on your team who needs something different than another person on the team. And I do know some... that there can be the tendency to want to systematize a lot

or put rules in place or programs or, you know, so like if one employee needs some mental health support and you want to direct some time or budget or time off or something to that person, how do you navigate through this idea of I might be doing something for one person that I'm not doing for another, but that's what this person needs and the other person might not need anything right now or something different at another point? Like how is the leader do you

navigate through that? It feels complex. Yeah, we tackle this in the book. There's a chapter in the back around like challenges and backlash. And this is one of the things we talk about. How do you sort of adjust for everyone's needs and ensure that people's needs are getting met when maybe their needs are at odds or you're doing a little bit more for somebody else. I think what these leaders do really well is they bank a lot of good will with their team. And their team members know that if they're doing something for one team member, if they need something the next day, they'll be the person that is getting the help and support they need. So I think when you create this culture where people want to help each other, they want

to see each other, get the resources they need, they're happy to see their team thrive and be successful, there's less likely to be those fairness perceptions because while the leader may not be doing the same actions for each person, they're dedicating similar time to getting to know what that person needs and responding with similar enthusiasm and care, right? So I think it's about the equity and the approach and not necessarily equal activities that result from those meetings. We have a great story in our book about a woman who was struggling with overhead lights in their conference room getting a lot of migraines from them. And you know she

flagged it up to her leader and her leader went to HR and advocated for some budget and it wasn't necessarily easy but the next time she went in that But she flagged it up to her leader and her leader went to HR and advocated for some budget and it wasn't necessarily easy. But the next time she went in that conference room, the lights were fixed and she was good to go and the leader didn't make a big deal about it, didn't draw attention to the fact that they got changed. It was just something that she knew that the leader went out of her way to do for her and it made a big difference.

But we didn't hear in that story. And then my coworkers were like, well, where's my thing? You know, like and I think it's because the team culture really supports this generosity of spirit. Mm-hmm Okay, my last question is around how employees team members Lower level leaders people maybe without a leadership title or positional authority,

but want to demonstrate leadership. How can those people contribute to getting their needs met and having wellness programs or access in their jobs? Because you said earlier, we kind of have to let go of the superhero leader trope, right? But I still think a lot of times employees put the onus on the leader to figure it out or to handle it as opposed to feeling like obviously the leader and the culture needs to support it. But taking some leadership onus on themselves. Is my question making any sense? Yeah, it makes sense. But you're touching on

something that's really important because employees have to play a part in this. A leader cannot individualize any support if they don't understand what you need. And they shouldn't be making guesses for what you need, right? I am a very different person than the employee that I'm working with. And that person might have different ways of reacting to certain situations, what they're looking for, what's actually going to help them is different. So making any assumptions that what helps me is going to help them is folly, right? That's not going to help everybody down the line, right? You want to make sure you're working with the person. So we actually talk about person-centered planning, which includes

the leader working directly with an employee to plan for what they need together. So it's not the leader is the solution. And when you create a culture when people are open and honest and having these conversations, that's where the leader can clearly state to the employee, right? This is something that we should work on together. I need your input. I need your support. And employees, when you have a leader that is open and transparent and having these kinds of conversations with you, it's on you to provide your input because they are not mind readers. Leaders cannot know what's best for you. You have to advocate what's best for you.

Of course, as you're mentioning, it kind of depends on the situation you're in and what the leader is like. But as much as you can advocate for yourself, the better results you're going to have because people are going to actually be able to give you what you need. So it isn't up to the leader to come up with all the solutions. They need to be open to a variety of solutions. They need to be able to hear without judgment, listen in, see what the employee's speaking about, and ask the right questions to dig in deeper and figure out what the right solution is. There's a really important component of our book and of this leadership style is making sure

the person is at the center of everything you're planning. The employee does have a part in all of this. I think I said that was the last question, the employee does have a part in all of this. I think I said that was the last question, but I'm going to throw in one quick one. As you think about the future of specifically workplace wellness, what are the trends and what can leaders be doing now to prepare to meet those future demands? Yeah, I think what we're seeing is that organizations are investing increasingly heavily in the idea of workplace wellness because employees are increasingly burnt out and exhausted and they don't know what to do about it. But what we see is that organizations have generally taken a lot of money and used a

spaghetti at the wall approach, like, let's just see what sticks. And what I think is going to start happening as employees start, we're hearing it in talking to people, you know, people even calling some of these programs insulting, like, I don't have time to go to yoga at lunch. If I go, my boss is going to be breathing down my neck about why I went. So don't offer it and then make me feel bad about going. So I think employees are already starting to have some reactivity towards stuff that just hasn't worked. And so what we think and what I think is probably going to become more and more popular is taking a step back and saying, okay, we tried this spaghetti at the wall.

It's not solving the problem. How can we be more strategic? And the strategic piece around wellness, I think, is going to become more and more of a trend because companies are starting to recognize that they're not solving for the problem and employees are starting to raise those concerns to them directly. I am certain the leaders, the team members, the cultures and the organizations that are tuning in are gonna want to learn a lot more about this. So let me remind our listeners that the book is called

Leading for Wellness. And you can learn more about Patricia and Katina and their work at workerbeing.com. We'll put that information along with a bunch of other places to find and follow them both in show notes. Katina, Patricia, thank you so much for being here and for being our guest. Thank you. It was wonderful.

Okay. If there's one thing I hope you take away from this conversation, it's this. Workplace wellness isn't about more perks, more policies or more stuff. It's about leadership. Yes, from those with positional authority, but also from those willing to lead from within, to advocate for change and to push for a culture

that actually supports its people. And because leadership is hard, messy, complex, and constantly evolving, we've linked several episodes in show notes that dive deeper into leadership and culture. But know this, no amount of meditation apps, wellness stipends, or kombucha on tap is going to mask a toxic culture. No wellness initiative will ever replace the need

for actual support, reasonable expectations, and leaders who care. And if this episode resonated with you, leave us a review, share it with a friend, or maybe just send it to the leader who needs to hear it. Because doing meaningful work, woman's work, isn't just about surviving the workplace treadmill. It's about redefining success in a way that actually supports you, your well-being, and the impact that you want to have. Let's make work better for all of us because that is woman's work.