This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Two Can Win (Helping Two-Career Families Move From Chaos To Connection) with Tiffany Sauder | 243

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

In this episode, we talk about how two people can win in a marriage, at work, and in life. Because more of us should be experiencing this! I’ve invited Tiffany Sauder, wife, mom, entrepreneur, CEO, board member, investor, podcast host and keynote speaker, to be our guest. For twenty years, she and her husband have been building their companies and their family on the exact same timeline. That means four kids, three businesses and two careers, all building towards one abundant life of And (not Or). Today, Tiffany spends her time helping two career families move from chaos to connection – and I’m excited to swap some stories and ideas. Handling literally everything so our partners can win, propping them up, dismissing the part we play, sacrificing our dreams, putting our wants and needs in the back seat, that’s what woman’s work used to look like. But not anymore. I don’t care if you’re professionally driven or not, if you work or not, if you love cooking and babies and caring for your home and others or not, you GET TO WIN in your relationship too. Whatever that means and however that looks for you. Connect with Tiffany: Website: https://www.tiffanysauder.com/  IG: https://www.instagram.com/tiffany.sauder/  Newsletter sign-up: https://tiffany-sauder.myflodesk.com/newsletter Task Planner: https://tiffany-sauder.myflodesk.com/taskplanner Ultimate Guide to Outsourcing Your Laundry: https://tiffany-sauder.myflodesk.com/stopdoingyourlaundry  Like what you heard? Please rate and review  Thanks to our This Is Woman’s Work Sponsor: Head over to wisefitwealth.com and click the “Schedule a Meeting with our Team” button. They’ll hook you up with a free budget sheet and some helpful planning tips! WiseFit Wealth has ONE goal, and that is to help you achieve yours.

I am Nicole Kalil, your host of the This Is Woman's Work podcast, where we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. Because the old definition is, well, outdated at the very today. Because the old definition is well outdated at the very least. And because I'm more of a torch the old playbook and write your own rules kind of person. And for many women today, their choice is marriage, kids, homemaking, and mom and wife are all the titles they want and need. And that is a valid and viable choice. And if that feels true and right and real for you, then I celebrate that choice as much as I do a woman's choice to not do those things or do some version of them. For most of my 20s and 30s, I believed strongly that I'd never get married,

mostly because I wasn't sure I ever wanted to based on what I observed of many marriages, but also as a protection mechanism because I hoped it would hurt less when relationships didn't work out if I said upfront that I wasn't in it for the long haul. So when Jay proposed to me, I was so surprised that I actually thought he was breaking up with me, which is a story for another day, but tells you how little marriage was on my radar at the time. And my husband is my favorite human on the planet. He's my person. But I think I would have been okay if we never got married and just did life together. So this episode isn't a commentary about marriage, but rather a discussion

about how two individuals with ambition and goals, with passion and purpose, can come together and create a life that works for both of them. It's about how two people can win in a marriage, at work and in life. Because friend, it wasn't until recently, like in the last decade of my life, that I've seen many examples of this. Jay and I have been attempting it since the very beginning with some missteps and some fails along the way. And I'm proud that we've chosen this path. But honestly, I felt mostly like an odd duck about it. Like in conversations with other women, I've held back in sharing many good things. And I've even found some things to complain about because I've almost felt guilty to be in a relationship where we're both mostly happy, supporting, and where we both not only can win, but that our wins are celebrated,

encouraged, and admired. Please note, I am not suggesting I have a perfect relationship or that we've done anything perfectly. I'm saying that the mutual respect of our goals and what matters most to us is a baseline, a non-negotiable in our marriage. When either of us wins, we both win, yeah, but more so that we prioritize each other's happiness and success. It's sort of the my job is to take care of you and your job is to take care of me and we both are committed to our jobs. So maybe you're experiencing this

or whatever version of both of you winning looks like to you in your relationship. Maybe you see this exampled in many places, but just in case you're not like me through most of my life, I'd love to explore this topic further. I've invited Tiffany Sauter, wife, mom, entrepreneur, CEO, board member, investor, podcast host, and keynote speaker to be our guest. For 20 years, she and her husband have been building their companies and their family on the exact same timeline. That means four kids, three businesses, and two careers all building towards one abundant life of and. Today, Tiffany spends her time helping two career families move from chaos to connection. And I am so excited to swap some stories and some ideas. So Tiffany, thank you for being here. And

because I like to keep it real and never ever send the message that any of us have anything all figured out. I need to ask, is your experience with this idea that two people can win the same in your mind or in your experience as having a perfect relationship? No, not at all. But I think that maybe you have found this, Nicole, in your sort of process of maturation is that I think the way I defined the word perfect as like a 24-year-old versus my 44-year-old self, I would have defined perfect as like this untarnished, undented sort of thing in a case that had no sense of pressure to it. And I think today my 44 year old definition of perfect is that, is that we have the toolbox for those gaps in our relationship to be as short as possible. Cause we are two people trying to do life together and we're both evolving and we're both growing. And we both have our individual roads that we're on, but we're also have this family entity that we're

trying to grow. And as the kids change stages and you were kind of, you know, talked about how the prospect of getting married called up some things for you of like head trash you had. And it's like all that stuff starts to be unpacked as you move through life together. And so I think my definition of perfect has evolved. But you're right. It's not perfect. But we do start to have a really mature toolbox that we can go to to make those times of feeling apart, feeling separate, feeling tension, feeling mad, that those to be much shorter than they were before.

That is an epically good answer. So I want to dive into some of those tools. I know Jay and I have a few of our own. What is a tool or a routine or something that you all do as a two career household to keep communication going or to keep the chaos at bay? Yeah. You know, I'll give like a maybe 90 second backdrop of all the things that I'm going to talk about were birthed from my own train wreck moment where I was all of those things that you said, you know, the C I started my agency when I was 25 years old. My husband is an Ivy league athlete. So, you know, we're like all of this stuff, like young ambition coming together.

And when it's like the two of you, it's kind of like works. Everybody's rowing hard. You both have big, ambitious expectations of life. And then as time went on and our jobs got bigger, they required travel. We had people reporting to us. We had boards that we had joined. We added four kids to the mix, like, and they started school and like just all of this stuff started piling on. And it got to this place where I was like, this is wholly unsustainable. All of the things that I have worked for suddenly feel like this reactive prison that I'm living in. And all I'm doing is barking at people, orders, and can you pick this up? And like, oh my word, are you serious? Nobody else can think

of something for dinner tonight. Am I really folding another load of laundry? Can you not see that this meeting starts at 7 a.m. tomorrow and I need to get this agenda done? The way I felt inside was like, this is not who I am. How am I just acting in this place that feels so reactive and responsive and just barking. And so I remember laying in bed at night and saying, and my husband and I had, my business was going through a hard time. We'd pushed our marriage to a place where we both deserved better. And we knew that. And we had a choice to make of either we figure out how to become better for one another, or we needed to free ourselves from this. We are achievers. We wanted exceptional in every area of our life and we were not doing that or being that for one another.

And so we had to acknowledge that and figure that out. And the way that I was showing up for my kids, it wasn't that I was absent, but it felt like a roller coaster. Like seasons, I was like, I'm super here. And then I'm like, oh my word, I'm not. And then I was like, kind of trying to figure out this whole guilt thing. I just felt so unsettled about everything in my life. So from that, I was like, hey, I remember laying in bed at night and being like, I either need to give back to life some of these things that I love or like so many other areas in my business life that I've had to level up, I've got to figure out how to level up my toolbox. When my agency was struggling with revenue, I had the decision to make it small or figure out how to sell. When I went through a

season where I was like top talent wasn't staying, I had a decision to make. Do I figure out how to be a better leader or do I just not have top? There's these moments where you would just have to pick. And inaction is picking the smaller thing. And so I was like, okay, in all these areas of my professional life, I figured out how to level up my toolbox. How do I do that in my personal life? I don't know how. I don't know where to go. I don't know where to start. But if I bring that framing of let's not start with saying no to something I love, how can I scale my life? And so that's really what this life of and is all about is how do you not only encourage women and motivate them to say yes to the things that they

want in life, but also to be honest about what are the hows that actually enable that in our lives. So you're getting back to your question. What are some ways that two career families can do that? Three times a year, our life, our kids are from 15 to just turned four years old. So most of them are in the school age. And so our lives revolve around school calendar. And I think much of your listeners do too. So when we're going, we're transitioning from summer to first semester, our whole family will sit down and we will all share with the family what our priorities are. When I think about my role as a CEO, I'm like, my job is to allocate time and money. That's my whole job as a CEO. It's actually my whole job as a mom too.

I mean, there's caretaking as well, but it's how do I allocate well the time and money that we have against the priorities of the family? And if you would have looked inside of our household five years ago, I could have said my priorities. My husband could have said his priorities. And we sort of were guessing at the kids'. But we were really putting them on those, like the kids. We weren't asking them, hey, what are your priorities in this next season? And so we'll all sit around. We'll go out to dinner together. And we will give the girls two to three days kind of heads up to prepare. And we will literally share with one another, these are our priorities for the coming season. And it gives me a chance to look proactively at, okay, how many weeks is my husband going to be gone? Giving the girls an understanding of what's

the fall going to feel like. I have some travel coming up. There's going to be about six nights over the next four months that I'm going to be gone, letting them know that that's what's coming. Who's going to be likely staying with them? How are we going to keep things moving? And I think we look at our little kids, like for my eight-year-old to sit around the table and have her big sisters be listening to what she wants to do over the next five months. And it's things like, I want to play with Lucy three times out of school, or I want my sisters to jump on the trampoline with me. Like it's not big stuff, but it allows me as a mom to say, okay, I I'm able to take in and hear everybody's priorities. I now them and just an agent of those things. And we can start to figure out how do we

be a team through this next season of life and everybody understand what's going to be required of us. And so my big girls will step up and say, Hey, if dad's going to be gone a lot in September, I could make dinner on the nights that I don't have practice. Amazing. That would be super helpful. Thanks, honey. Like it just has changed the dynamic from me being this perpetual micro solver of it's dinner tonight. What's happening?

Okay, somebody's got to pick her up. And they can just see what's happening. And I think kids want to feel part of a team. They want to feel seen. You used that word too when you talked about you and your husband's relationship. This simple act has completely changed the way our family interacts, sees, and understands one another. And I can then say, okay, having Lucy over is a priority. Let me work with her mom to make that happen. And I'm not like, I don't know, signing her up for like art camp that I have to

pick her up after school. And she doesn't even care. She'd rather have Lucy over, which is so much easier for me because they're at my house and she can get off the bus. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like I don't have to make it hard. So, so much of what you said aligns with my personal experience as well. First, you know, with the danger of becoming almost roommates or like logistical coordinator with your significant other, when things get really busy. Like there are times in Jay and I's relationship where I feel like we just sort of high-fived each other walking by as we went off and did all the things we needed to do. And similarly, we do something we call family forecasting, which is basically very similar to what you talked about

is taking the concepts that we learned from business and business planning and vision setting and alignment and all of that. And we applied it to our marriage. But it's only recently that we included our daughter in it. And I wish we would have done that a little bit sooner because seeing her and as you said as well, like hearing her, what's important to her. It is amazing how often it is changed what we've ended up doing to something easier, something simpler. And also seeing her bought into ways she can help and be part of the team and her suggesting things as well. She came up with, she cooks, you know, cooks herself breakfast in the morning. And I love

it from an independent standpoint, but I would have never thought to put that on her until she offered it. So all good things. Any tips on the communication side? Like I think of something that Jay and I do that we learned a while back is because we're so busy when we go to each other, we try to be upfront about what it is we're looking for or what we need in that moment. So like, I need you to get pissed off with me because I'm like in a ragey venti mood and I just need you to, or I need you to help me problem solve, or I need you to just listen. That's really helped us. I wish I were better at it, knowing that to do that and actually doing it. Sometimes don't line up, but I think that's been really helpful. Any tips on your end for communicating when things maybe aren't

working or when you're having feelings about something or whatever? Yeah. One of the things my husband and I were taught in marriage counseling that has really served us well is asking your partner when a good time would be to have this conversation, whatever it is. Hey, I need to have a difficult conversation with you. Or hey, I've got some things on my heart about our relationship. Can you let me know when a good time would be to have that conversation? And that way,

you're both in the state of mind of like, hey, this could be a while. My husband jokes, I'm like a blurter. I just blurt out the thing, what I'm seeing. As I've aged, I'm getting better at it, but it's still my tendency is just like spit it out. And sometimes he's just like, it's not that he doesn't want to hear me. He's just finishing something in his head or, hey, I've got this big meeting tomorrow. I just don't have the capacity for that right now. That doesn't mean he's ignoring me. I'm not important to him. It's just understanding the context in which this conversation is living in his world. And he may say, is it important? Do we need to have it in the next 24 hours or will it, or will the like topic be the same if it waits? And so it's like just being respectful even in that

has really helped us, I think, just be crisper in our solving instead of like, we're at just a very different places in our readiness to have difficult conversations. We have a weekly family meeting and that is a very helpful cadence for us and it's a combination of logistics and how is everybody feeling right now and anybody can bring a topic to it I had a parenting coach say a lot of times families get together only when there's something sad that is happening you know like hey we need to bring the family together. Grandma's sick. Or, hey, we got to like, let's. And so having this cadence of them being routine and even sharing like joyful things like, hey, Ivy, why don't you share with your sisters what your teacher's feedback was on your book report this week? And it gives them a chance for us to like

hear one another. My kids are in very different stages and ages. And so, you know, it can kind of feel like they're flying at different altitudes. And so that is like a real grounding part of our routine. And I try to like make it fun. Like sometimes I just like I found this car, this, these car, this new game at target. Let's play it for 20 minutes and then we'll do our family meeting. Like it doesn't have to be ridiculous. Um, so I think those are some communication things that we do well.

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where maybe you need to be a little bit more engaged or that might be a little bit more stressful or that might require more from you, or you might have more travel. How do you navigate being supportive of each other, but also prioritizing what you and your business needs? Maybe I think my question is a little bit around equity. Like how do you navigate that? So I would say our careers have been like a Lego block and that there are times where, uh, seasons where mine was kind of the lead horse and seasons where his was the lead horse. And I don't mean that suddenly one of us became like a part-time in our roles, but I think like he took a new job, uh, right at two years ago. And we knew that him saying yes to this was a really

excellent opportunity for our family. And it was an opportunity for him to just figure out if he could lead something of this complexity. And I knew that that was just important to him to be like, can I do it? Like we all have some questions like that in our, and so we made the choice preparing for that, that I would get completely out of client work at the agency so that I had more flexibility knowing that his was going to require travel and some short time stuff. And so there were transitions that I made at, in my work to be able to say, I've just have to be able to plug in at a little different level to be able to hold fast to some commitments that we want to make to our girls in this season of life. And so I didn't feel like I have to make these sacrifices for him. It was very much,

this is a choice we're making together. There was a season in his career where he worked mostly, he was like a trader essentially. So it was like mostly behind a computer. And so in those seasons I could, it was pretty untethered. I could go speak, I could go do client work, I could go to a conference and I could pretty freely be gone one to three nights. And it wasn't this massive kind of family event. And that's just, that's just more complex now. It's not that I never do. But I've just said, Hey, I'm kind of family event. And that's just, that's just more complex now. It's not that I never do. Um, but I've just said, Hey, I'm kind of off the road right now that works best for our family. And that's okay. If that means there's some things that have to slow down for me

professionally, that's okay. Um, and I think understanding that our individual careers and our family's stage in life, those things don't get to exist independently of one another. And that doesn't mean those sacrifices, I think you could call them that. I more see them about how do we get all the puzzle pieces to fit together in a way that I feel really peaceful with the choices we're making. And could we have a little more money? Could I have seen a few more countries? Like, I mean, maybe, but it's just, it's just not worth it. It's okay. It's not worth it. So, right. Well, everything you just said spoke to me personally. My husband is about to

take a really big career opportunity and we've had a lot of conversations about it and I could not be more excited for him. It's the best opportunity. He's going to crush it. And I'm mindful with any new opportunity, there's going to be additional pulls at his time, additional responsibilities and expectations. And we kind of looked at it and I'm like, well, this really works out well with where I'm at with my career, prioritizing the podcast. I don't need to be on the road all the time. You know, JJ is kind of at an age of blossoming independence. So, you know, it's not the same as like, I need to be with her every minute. Like when she was one years old, now she's 10, she can get off the bus herself. She can let herself in, start homework, all of those things. But what I think sparked into my head as you were talking is it not being one-sided, that this has happened on both sides and we've

made the decision in both directions based on current reality. And as you said, the puzzle pieces coming together. And in some of those times, my work or my goals were at the forefront and at some of those times it's been his and vice versa and it's not like an accounting of it right like it's not even Stephen but it's more of this understanding of that we're willing to flex either way based on what is our current situation what's available and what are our opportunities? Any thoughts or reactions to anything I just said? Well, I think that's right. One other thing I would add is, you know, I really asked him and as your husband's taking this new role and as he was, I was like, what support do you need from me? And one of the things we started looking at as we looked at,

we have one of our daughters is in travel sports, which if you say the words travel sports and you have a kid in that, you know what that means. You're just gone a lot. We have another one that's really involved in court and she's a swimmer, which takes a lot of hours. And she's also in a big show choir that competes. And so there's just all this stuff and we really want to be at it. So one of the determinations that we made is of the jobs that my husband kind of was in charge of at home, the outside kind of yard stuff, handyman work, which he's kind of questionable at, and then our finances. We decided that we were going to take those other two things, the handyman stuff and the yard, and outsource it. This career opportunity was bringing more financial means into our family instead of us,

like just, you know, I don't know, putting in a pool or like buying more stuff. We said, we're going to put some of what you're going to go earning into giving you, JR, more time to rest so that when you're home, you can either be with the kids or you can be just being home because he's not home that much. So when he is home and I was like, this isn't going to really work with like yards. Like it's just, it's not going to work. And I don't want to take it on. And I don't have the capacity to do that. And I needed to say, I want to support you, but some of what that's going to require, I can't absorb. And so how do we be thoughtful about the way we do this? And so we hired this like estate manager, which sounds fancier than

it is, but it's just basically like one guy who organizes everything that happens outside of the house. He is the guy who organized that. So I have one person I can be like, Hey, the lights are out. What's happening. We meet with them. And it's like, that has made it so that it still looks nice to me, which I care about, but it's also not this perpetual irritation of like, this job has meant that you're not mowing as frequently. You don't have time to trim the stuff. Like, you know what? Like, just like, I know that's going to bug me. And then I'm going to blame this job for that and all that. And then the same thing with, I have a quarterly handyman now that comes and it's things like refilling the water softener

and the replacing the filter. Those are not things my husband enjoys anyway. But with this, just the capacity that his job is going to require, I'm like, you're not going to have time to think of that stuff. Can we systematically operationalize some of the stuff that you are supporting the family with? So I don't feel like it's all falling on me. And we said, hey, we're going to spend some of our financial resources to make this happen so that it doesn't fall on me. But there are some things that do fall on me and I'm like, I'm so game for taking that stuff. Some of it you can't absorb. You are also not an endless well of being able to say yes. And so how do you think really strategically about your time and money and how is that aligned with kind of this new stage in life?

Yeah. So I love the question, what support do you need from me? What support does the household need? What support do we need given, you know, whatever is going to happen next? And mostly I love the conversation from the place of it's not implied or misinterpreted that it's all going to just be on me now. And I think without that conversation, that tends to be the default. I would add one question that we kind of threw out there, which was, for me, what was the biggest concern or what was I most afraid of losing in him taking this opportunity to protect us? I say us, because if I lost something that was important to me, I would get resentful. I'd get frustrated. I'd get, and that would impact us and our relationship. And

for me, this might sound silly, but it was travel. We've created this opportunity where we get to travel so much together as a family. I travel for work and it's really important to me. And my fear is, as he takes on this role for a period of time, he's not going to be able to travel as much or be as free to take the time off. And that would impact my ability to do that. And I said, and I'm afraid of that. So we kind of navigated through the, like, I'm still going to take some trips. It might be some girl trips. We might do some shorter, more frequent trips together, you know, but really being mindful about what's important that could be lost on my end as well. Which brings me to the question, how do you and your husband

both stay connected and handle when you travel? And the reason I ask is I know a lot of women who travel for work, but I know a lot of women who, whether they work or not, one of their happy places is to like take a girl's trip or go visit family or something like that. And they often will tell me, I don't feel like I can leave the kids or my husband won't be okay with the kids for longer than a night or something along those lines. So how do you guys handle very specifically when you travel as the mom, because I don't know that I've ever heard anybody worry about the husband traveling. Yeah. Like the mom can't handle it, you know? Well, I think if I were asked, if someone were saying across from me, I don't feel like I can

travel because the kids won't be okay. My husband can't do it. I would just first ask, is that true? And not in a way to like be a jerk, but just to say, tell me more about what makes you believe that. Is there evidence of it? Is it not done the same way? Is it that the kids won't eat organic vegetables? Like, is it that like logistically, like literally it can't work without two drivers? Like, help me understand, is that true? Because what I have found in my life is that if I want to, I can figure out how. It's just the how I might have to be really creative. So when I'm traveling, I feel best when I'm able to serve the family in a few ways, and that is clarity and logistics, getting, I would say,

backup support in place because I'm aware of the requirement of my husband's job. Even if I give him a really big notice and it's on his calendar, sometimes literally something that important comes up. So I have to have some type of a backup, like a bat phone, like, hey, you're just on call, a neighbor or whatever it is. And the third is food. It's my love language to my family. I love to cook. We love to eat. I usually have food lined up and decided so that that friction doesn't exist. And so I print out the calendar just like we would on a family meeting. We would go through it in a little bit more detail if I'm not going to be there. And in there on each place it's going, it would say who's driving carpool, who's picking you up. Um, and all of those kinds of things would be really defined.

My kids, they care when I'm gone for sure. Cause mom is not there, but the things that make them feel like this isn't that bad is when they get home from practice and they're fricking starving and there's something and they open up the fridge. They're like, Oh my God, I can heat up an enchilada. This is amazing. Like those are the places where it just me being gone doesn't, it feels like, oh, this is great. And the other is when they don't know who's picking them up. I don't know who to look for in the parking lot. I didn't know that I was supposed to walk out with my friend. Like that creates this nervousness for them. If I can make those two things go away and I've talked to them about like, what are the hard things about me being away? Let's talk about it. Okay. Yeah. I can't put you to bed, but if we're eight nights

a year, is that fine? And they're like, yeah, that's fine. So I like to quantify things. I'd like to really get to like, let's talk about the attributes of me being gone that makes it feel uncomfortable. And I want to try to fill those holes in for you guys as a family. So yeah. Is it a little bit more work? For sure. I'm in the habit of if I'm going to make dinner, I usually make two. I make one and I freeze one. So when I leave, I don't have to like stay up till midnight making meatballs. It's literally like, hey, I've defrosted these things.

They're easy to make. Here's some pasta. Throw it in the water. So that's how I prepare. And I just don't absorb. There's always seasons like my four-year-old, like, mom, I don't want you to be gone. It's like, I know, honey. Literally, you are so fine. Your sisters are here. There's so many people that love you. I just don't absorb it. It's okay.

It is okay that I need to go be a whole human all by myself and go do some things and expand my mind and meet some people and do some stuff. And it is okay that it is not going to be perfect for you for the next 72 hours. And you are a hundred percent safe and a hundred percent love. And you are actually probably going to have a great time. It's just the prospect of me leaving kind of makes you sad. Once I've understood what is the stuff, we kind of put that in place. We get better at it each time. I just, I think sometimes we can absorb a little too much of that as a mom. And it's just sometimes okay. That's maybe not the answer everybody wants to hear.

I just think sometimes it's okay. It's the answer I wanted to hear. I love that answer. I think it's so good in so many ways. Yes, they're going to be okay, right? For the most part, that question, is it real? The answer is no. it's mostly made up in our minds. Like my husband does all the cooking in our household and that is his love language. And also it calms him. It's like a stress reliever to cook, which I don't have. And so when he

travels, he doesn't leave us meals. We figure it out. Like she gets not perfectly organically, beautifully cooked meals. And guess what? She's okay. Or we order out or, you know, whatever, like it all sort of works out. And in my experience, and I don't know, this just makes me sound bad as a mom is she's really upset when I'm going to leave. Once I'm gone, she doesn't care. It's like five. It's like when you drop your kid off at kindergarten, they like ball and you like feel awful. And then you ask at the end of the day and they're like, oh, she was fine five minutes later. And you're like, ah, okay. You know, this is, everybody's going to be okay. Well, let me, I know, let me just say this

real quickly. One of the things I like to do after I'm gone, because my husband and I are going to be going away. We have a young, like 25 year old that's going to be staying with the girls. And sometimes they're excited about that. And sometimes they're not. When I get back, I usually say, what'd you guys do? And they'll be like, she taught me how to make this new friendship bracelet. Or she taught me how to do ombre on my nails or whatever. I have all girls. And I'll be like, isn't it incredible that you got to learn those things because of this opportunity to be with Chloe and mom being away is not all bad. You get exposed to new stuff and that like reframes it for them. And so then I can say, Hey, do you remember all the cool things you learned

last time we were away? I know it's not perfect, but you also get to experience some really cool things because they have new ideas, new experiences, new abilities, and that gets to come into their world. Great tactic. I love that. And it's just a good reframe. So I am sure you want to learn more about Tiffany and her work. So go to her website, tiffanysauder.com. And there is a ultimate guide to outsourcing your laundry freebie on her website that I absolutely need you to get your hands on. I will too. And we'll put all the links in show notes. Tiffany, thank you so much for the conversation and for your wisdom and for being an example where two people can win in a relationship. Thanks, Nicole. I love your vulnerability too. So thanks for sharing.

Oh my gosh. My pleasure. All right. In every long-term committed relationship, there will be sacrifices or puzzle pieces that need to fit together. There will be times where one needs more than the other. There will be bad days, tough times, and seasons of inequity or imbalance. But if one person is always winning at the expense of the other, then friend, one of those people can find somebody better or go do it on their own, and the other can become better or suck it. Handling literally everything so our partners can win, propping them up, dismissing the part that we play, sacrificing our dreams, putting our wants and needs in the backseat, that shit is what woman's work used to look like,

but not anymore. I don't care if you're professionally driven or not, if you work or not, if you love cooking and babies and caring for your home and others or not, you get to win in your relationship too, whatever that means and however that looks for you. First and foremost, you can win. Then two can win. And that, my friend,. Then two can win. And that, my friend, is fucking woman's work.