This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - What a “Good Divorce” Can Look Like with Erin Levine | 426

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Starting point is 00:00:56 Check us out and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. And apparently for a growing number of women in their 40s, 50s and 60s, that work includes getting divorced. Now, before anyone sends me hate mail, this episode is not anti-marriage. It is anti-staying miserable because you think that you have to, and there is a difference. Because something is happening. More women are leaving marriage. later in life. And while there are a million reasons why, I don't think that it's a coincidence

Starting point is 00:01:46 that women today are more financially informed and secure, more professionally accomplished, and frankly, less willing to spend the second half of their lives staying in relationships that feel lonelier than being alone. Women are asking harder questions now. Questions like, is this actually a partnership? Or am I the only one carrying the emotional load here? And I think confidence also plays a role too. The kind of confidence that comes with age, experience, surviving hard things, building careers, raising kids, paying bills, rebuilding identity over and over again. Confidence changes your tolerance level. Things you once overlooked or justified or accommodated suddenly start sounding ridiculous. But here's the daunting part we don't talk enough about,

Starting point is 00:02:33 the legal side. Because for something that impacts your money, your home, your kids, your future, and your sanity, most people walk into divorce feeling wildly under-informed. Or they avoid it altogether because somewhere along the way, divorce became synonymous with war. Burn it down. Lawyer up. Fight for everything and the dog. Drain the bank account to prove a point,

Starting point is 00:02:57 as if the only successful divorce is one where everyone leaves emotionally concussed and financially depleted. But what if that's bullshit? What if divorce isn't actually a legal problem as much as it is a life transition that happens to require some legal steps. What if a good divorce is a possibility? Today, we're talking about the legal side of divorce, the financial mistakes, the emotional landmines, the myths about lawyers and courtrooms, and the options more people have than they might even realize. Our guest is Aaron Levine, founder and CEO of Hello Divorce,

Starting point is 00:03:34 a platform helping people navigate divorce with legal, financial, and emotional, support. After spending nearly two decades as a family law attorney watching the traditional system create more conflict, cost, and chaos, Erin set out to build something different. She's a certified family law specialist, longtime super lawyer, and one of the leading voices rethinking what a good divorce can actually look like. So Aaron, welcome to the show. And I think the best place for us to start is with one of the biggest misconceptions people have about divorce, because I think a lot of people do picture that long, ugly, financially devastating courtroom battle. So let's start here before we get into the weeds. What actually has to happen legally to get a divorce?

Starting point is 00:04:21 Hey, Nicole, great to be here. Yes, I think there is a huge misconception about what divorce is from a legal standpoint. And the thing to know is that divorce in every state and sometimes every county is a little bit different, but there's always three main steps that have to happen that are mandatory. The first step is somebody has to file what we often call a divorce petition. Sometimes it's called a divorce complaint. You see the language right from the start, the system, the way the system labels these documents makes us think war, makes us think lawsuit. But That initial document, the divorce petition, simply states that we want a divorce and we want to preserve all of our rights going into it. The second step is where a lot of people get hung up. This is the part

Starting point is 00:05:21 that gives people the most amount of anxiety. And that's the financial disclosures. That's where you get everything on the table, your assets, your debts, your cash, your intellectual property. It doesn't mean that you're dividing everything. It just means we have to get it all on the table so that we can negotiate from a place where we actually know what's happening. You can't negotiate your way out of a contract, which that's what marriage is, a marital contract, unless you have all the facts. And then the third piece is getting to an agreement, which this will surprise you, but 95% of divorces actually ultimately get to an agreement. Only 5% litigate in a trial. So you get to an agreement and you get that down on paper. It's signed and it's often called a divorce judgment or decree

Starting point is 00:06:19 or sometimes also called a marital settlement agreement. Okay. Thank you for walking us through that. where do people have more options than they might realize? Well, I think the first thing to realize is that, and you mentioned this in your intro, is that divorce, it certainly is a legal event, but it's so much more than that. It is a massive life transition. We don't get divorced because we lose hope. We actually have more hope than we ever had before because we're making a really big decision after a really considered period of time. And now we want to set ourselves up for something

Starting point is 00:07:00 really positive going forward. A good divorce is empowering a better life ahead. So we have to think of it as getting support beyond legal. Yes, legal is important. But everything is changing from sometimes your health insurance plan to your retirement accounts, how much you have available for retirement, how and when you parents, where you live, none of this is meant to scare you because you don't need to know everything at once. You'll learn it along the way. Everybody does because women like us are women who have done hard things

Starting point is 00:07:40 and we can do hard things. So you don't need to know everything up front, but you do need to know that you're going to need more support than just the legal piece. And you also need to know that you're, will have time unless there is an emergency, like your spouse has taken your kids and you don't know where they are, which is very, very rare. Unless there's an emergency, you will have plenty of time to get the support you need and make decisions from a place of power and confident,

Starting point is 00:08:09 not fear, and set yourself up with a really solid agreement. So it kind of leads, and you might have already answered this into my next question, which was going to be how do you define a good divorce. You'd said empowering a good life ahead. Is there anything from your experience and observation, what makes up a good divorce and how do people do it? A good divorce is possible and I know that because we've literally supported 24,000 people through it. Actually, double that because we've done 24,000 divorces that have resulted in a good outcome. It doesn't mean divorce wasn't ruling or hard. It means that people felt good about their divorce and where they were headed in their next step. So a good divorce is possible. And what it means is you're setting yourself up to empower a better

Starting point is 00:09:02 life ahead. And there's just one thing that you have to remember. And that is you have to ask yourself through every decision because that's what divorce is, a series of decisions. Am I making this decision from a place of fear or from a place of self-knowing because nothing good ever comes from making decisions from a place of fear or anger and so much of divorce are those emotions and grief. So not that you won't have those, but if you can take insane amount of care of yourself, because this is going to be so hard, and you can really work on grounding and breathing and ask yourself those questions, you are going to have a good divorce.

Starting point is 00:09:52 You are absolutely going to get through this and you are going to be stronger, more organized, more resilient, more empowered than you ever have been before. So what I'm hearing is not that you won't experience fear, anger and grief, of course you will, but that those are not the best places to make a decision from. And that holds true not just in divorce, but in life in general. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Not great places to be making decisions from.

Starting point is 00:10:22 Agreed. But it is particularly challenging in divorce because the divorce system is a business model. And that business model is set up such that the longer and uglier and more inefficient your divorces, the more the players get paid. So there will probably be a lot of other lawyers that don't love this about what I'm saying, but it's true. Lawyers have literally no incentive to help you get this done quickly and efficiently and in your best interests. Not only that, but lawyers themselves, even good intention lawyers, are trained to win. So they want to see you win. But what they might think is a win, an extra $10 in child support or you paying $20 less a month in stousal support, might not be the win that you need or want.

Starting point is 00:11:19 You might, in some shape, or form, want to preserve some goodwill between the two of you. You might want to put your kids first. You might not want to put things in front of a public court that your children could read in 5, 10, 20 years from now.

Starting point is 00:11:33 So that's really important. What do you see, as far as the not good divorces, what are the things that are ruining people in relationships and that are some of the bigger mistakes that you see people making. I think one of the biggest mistakes is being so overwhelmed that you hand over your entire divorce to a lawyer and say, go.

Starting point is 00:12:01 You actually have to do a lot more management of this divorce. So let me give you an example. I had a woman, she's actually an investor in Hello Divorce. She is a C-suite executive. She is very wealthy. She's very high-powered, has a finance position. Yet in her marriage, when you look at how they divided labor, there wasn't an abuse situation,

Starting point is 00:12:27 although I do see that a lot coercive control. It's just her husband handled the finances, and she didn't. And so she wasn't very aware of how that all works. The lawyer came to her and said, look, your husband is offering you to have the house, keep the house. And the house has the same amount of equity as the 401k. So it's an equal trade. This is great. You take the house. He'll take the 401k. And because she handed it over to the lawyer and didn't think about it with a friend or with a divorce financial analyst or a real estate expert,

Starting point is 00:13:04 these are all people that we support on our site, she ended up with the asset that quickly was in a market that was losing value. She couldn't afford to pay the mortgage, the maintenance, the taxes and insurance. She had to sell it at a loss while his 401K continued to grow and it was after tax dollars, so it was actually worth far more than the equity in her home. So the very most important thing you can do is question. When if you are working with a lawyer and they say you need to do X, think about, okay, from a finance perspective, does that really make sense? Is that really doable for me?

Starting point is 00:13:48 Great advice. I firmly believe we as women should never abdicate the money. That doesn't mean that you need to manage it or handle everything or know everything or be a financial planner or expert, but just sort of releasing it and having somebody else be in control is never a good thing. I agree. I think sometimes naturally your spouse might do more of it. And the important, thing. And this is really important because finance is like one of the number one reasons why I see these marriages fall apart is when you don't have a partnership. So your spouse might do the actual work of doing the transfers or making the investment, but you need to know what those decisions are. You need to play a part of it and you need to consent to it. Absolutely. Agreed. What is the

Starting point is 00:14:36 single biggest financial mistake you see people make? Throw on average, to $20,000 to a lawyer without understanding what their best or worst case scenario is in the divorce or understanding what path that lawyer might take. Okay. And then what do you all do and what do you recommend to help people make clear-headed, forward thinking, even neutral decisions when they're in the middle of the fear and the anger and the grief and all the things that come along. How do you help people separate the experience of their emotions from their decisions?

Starting point is 00:15:18 Yeah, absolutely. One thing is, is that on average, 70% of divorces are filed by women. And when women are in a college-educated relationship, on average, they are the ones to file for divorce 90% of the time. So that means that for the most part, women are filing. And they're doing it after two to five years. years of trying to save their marriage, struggle with it, consider it, am I making the right decision? That is a really long time to be in decision. So I think the best thing you can do

Starting point is 00:15:51 is help yourself get to a decision one way or another. And also, once you make that decision, if it is to file for divorce, think through the exit plan. And if you're feeling especially overwhelmed, have support there. And for that, all of that, I generally recommend a divorce coach. These are life coaches that specialize in divorce. And they can hold a lot of that emotion with you. They can tell you when you're making decisions from a place of anger or fear. They can help you understand what documents you should start pulling together, how you're going to make this decision and walk you through the process. You don't have to do that. But it is one option that a lot of people use. So our site is called hellodivorce.com and it's a platform that helps you navigate

Starting point is 00:16:44 all of the legal and financial logistics. Actually, it automates the legal and the financial logistics associated with divorce and allows you to bring in experts as needed. Lawyers, mediators to help broker a deal if you don't want to talk to your spouse or they're being completely unreasonable. Financial advisors, real estate experts, therapists, divorce coaches, they're all there to support you through this. It sounds a lot more expensive, but what it ends up looking like is on average $2,000 to $4,000 per couple

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Starting point is 00:19:25 We'll link that episode in show notes if anybody is looking. Okay, so you mentioned the two to five years that people are making this decision, and we talked about some of the legal steps and resources that are available. But I would imagine a good divorce happens in that two to five years, as much as it happens in the actual divorce, meaning the conversations that you're having, the respect and support of each other's most empowered life ahead, whatever it might look like. Any tips for the before you file parts of how to have these

Starting point is 00:20:05 conversations and how to set yourself up well from the beginning for a good divorce, if that's the decision you've come to? That's such an amazing question. One thing that we talk a lot about is how you start your divorce lays the foundation for how it will go. There's not one right way to divorce, but there's definitely a wrong way. And that's starting it from a place of, I'm going to take everything. This is going to be the worst thing ever. Your spouse might say that, but they don't always mean it. And it'll be your job to sort of take a deep breath and process it and move through it. So when you're actually ready to make that decision, understand that it shouldn't be a surprise to your spouse. They shouldn't feel like this is a surprise when you've,

Starting point is 00:20:54 think quietly pulling away or stopped fighting or all the other things that we do is walk away spouses for the last couple years, but it will. It will come as a surprise. And so you need to give them a little bit of time to be able to process it as well. And during that time, you can be doing a couple things. Number one is you got to gather as much of your financial life as you possibly can. so that is clear. The second thing to do is to try and set some ground rules. This works really well for a lot of couples, not all. If you can set them great. We'll talk about it real quickly. If you can't, that also gives you information. That also helps you realize my spouse is not going to participate or cooperate at all. Now I need to ensure that I have some really strong legal support.

Starting point is 00:21:45 But ground rules are things like we agree that we are not going to talk. talk about the divorce in front of the kids. We agree that to the extent possible, we'll use a mediator or a neutral third party to help us get to an agreement. We agree that if at all possible, we'll stay out of court. If you can get those, or at least a couple of those initial brown rules, you're going to feel both of you will feel so much better walking into this process. I'm curious, and I don't know that you would have any data or stats on this, but how helpful is going to a therapist or seeing a marriage counselor during this phase, whether or not you end up getting divorced, does it help you come to some of these agreements or ground rules and

Starting point is 00:22:34 facilitate that decision? I don't know if it's easy. It's not the right word, but like having it be more obvious. Yeah, I think it depends on the therapist. I mean, sometimes that this, first of all, one thing I do know is a lot of people use the meeting with the therapist to tell their spouse they want a divorce and that's totally reasonable and I get it. But if both spouses like trust this therapist and like working with this therapist, that could be a really great opportunity to start setting some of these ground rules. But sometimes you get to a point in the relationship with the therapist where one feels like they're being bullied or not heard. And in that scenario, probably the best thing to do is set an hour or two with a local mediator or one of our mediators to say,

Starting point is 00:23:20 look, we don't know anything about this divorce. We haven't even started it, but we're trying to at least plan temporarily what life will look like over the next couple months while we figure this out. On the legal side or the decision side maybe is a better way to frame it, I would imagine the things that get the most challenging or most contentious are, of course, the finances, we've talked quite a bit, but kids and custody and agreements about the who and the win and the where and all that stuff. My first question is any tips as it relates to figuring out how to do it best with your children. And then is there any other aspect besides finances and kids that we should be thinking about? I have a ton of legal tips on custody and support, but let me just back up. 90% of the women that come to me are worried about what impact this will have on the children.

Starting point is 00:24:20 So I think it's important to bring up some research. And a couple of things we know. Number one is it's not the divorce itself that ultimately harms kids, although in the moment it's not easy. it's conflict and tension in front of them. So I really want people to understand that. In fact, the vast majority of the kids I've seen over the last 20 years have ended up more resilient and organized and empathetic and all sorts of stuff. It's not to say it's not hard early on,

Starting point is 00:24:53 but if you want to screw up your kids, you put them in the middle of the conflict and tension. So just remember that. I think what's most important is that the court's favor joint custody these days. And that scares a lot of people, especially when there's been one parent that's been more absent. But just because you agree to joint custody, and in most scenarios, that's probably how it will be, it doesn't mean that the actual parenting schedule has to be 50-50, right? So you can say to your spouse, absolutely, I agree to 50-50 or I agree to joint custody, But when you get down to the nitty-gritty details about the parenting schedule, that is where there's a lot more room and flexibility.

Starting point is 00:25:39 And I want people to be aware of that. If you start with, I want them 70% of the time, your spouse is going to push back 90% of time hard, hard, hard. But if you start from the place, of course we're both going to be in our kids' lives. Of course we will share joint legal custody and then work on the schedule and the kids end up being with you a lot more. Like, that tends to work a lot better. Okay. Besides the kids and the finances, what other things have the potential to become contentious that we should keep an eye out for? Okay, so two things, real estate and discovery. And I know real estate touches on finances. But when it comes to your home, for the most part, it's usually marital. And it usually,

Starting point is 00:26:26 you usually need to do two things. One is if you're both on the mortgage and you want to keep the home. You have to get your spouse's name off of it. And the other is you have to figure out a way to pay your spouse their share. Don't do that without a real estate expert. Our calls are no pressure and free with real estate experts. Understand your options. Sometimes you can even assume the loan. You can sometimes keep that low interest rate if you have it. So that's number one. Number two is discovery. Every lawyer in the world does discovery. That's where we send hundreds of questions and requests to the other side asking for data and finances, understand that that is very expensive.

Starting point is 00:27:07 And whatever you request, they will likely request back. And it's a lot of busy work. And it doesn't always give you the information that you need. So if you are working with a lawyer and they suggest discovery or just automatically do it, I would push back and say, what about this is really important and what can we hold off on? Okay.

Starting point is 00:27:28 Great tips. You mentioned earlier with the kids the tension and the conflict is what really messes them up, not the actual divorce. And I am a grown adult woman, so this might, you know, not be the best example. But my parents recently got divorced after 50 years of marriage. My mom was one of the people I talked about in the beginning, women in their 40s, 50s and 60s that are leaving marriages. And it's interesting how often when I tell people, I'm in my 40s. Like, and they're like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Are you okay?

Starting point is 00:28:03 And I'm like, I am fine and I am not sorry. Like, this was the absolute right best decision for both of them. They stayed in a relationship where they were mostly miserable with each other for a very long time. And I just am curious to your thoughts because this is my personal anecdotal experiences. Sometimes what actually does the most damage to our kids is staying in a relationship. where there is conflict and tension and it's obvious and it's ever present and it's not changing. And they're so worried about divorce where it's like, no, the damage is being done on the daily friend. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:42 What are your thought? Well, first of all, 80% of adult children say that they are very happy, if not content, with the fact that their parents got divorced. They don't wish that they were still together. But I think fighting in front of kids can be healthy. and normal. The problem becomes when it's the same issues over and over and over again and you're not modeling any resolution, that's really harmful to children.

Starting point is 00:29:09 The second thing that's really harmful for children in quote-unquote intact marriages is when you have a situation where you're modeling a loveless marriage. Is that really the type of relationship that you want your kids to be in? Because they're watching. Yeah. They're watching far more than what they're saying. So that, yes, there's lots of research on that being, you know, very, very unhealthy. They always say you just need one household to be stable and healthy and happy to have well-adjusted

Starting point is 00:29:42 children and that that can be far better than being in a family, in a nuclear family where the parents are miserable. Yeah. We talk a lot about human behavior on the show, basically. And what I've come to learn is that our beliefs pretty much drive everything. And we form our beliefs often at a very young age based on our experiences and environments. And unless we actively challenge those beliefs as we are older, we're going to default them. So all of that to say, we can say all day long to our kids what we want for them.

Starting point is 00:30:19 They're going to most likely create what they've experienced or recreate what they've experienced because that's what's formed their belief around what marriage is or what it should look like. And that scares the shit out of me for a lot of people. And now it scares the shit out of me, so thanks. No, I mean, Jay and I, my husband, we've had this conversation many times, and I know it sounds harsh,

Starting point is 00:30:45 but it's like I want to model something that we would actively choose for our daughter. and if we can't, then we need to figure that out, whatever that means. But that's always at the forefront of my mind is like, is this a marriage or a relationship or a partnership that I would want for her?

Starting point is 00:31:08 And my answer is unequivocally yes. Now there are moments where I'm like, no, this sucks, right? We all have those. But generally speaking, on the whole, the answer is yes. And God, I would fight for that all day. And if we get to a point where the answer is mostly no,

Starting point is 00:31:23 then I would fight for ending that relationship because that would be, certainly what would be best for the two of us, but also for her. 100%. Yeah, I like that framing. Total tangent, personal in nature there. But I know some states have like way stricter requirements,

Starting point is 00:31:42 like a certain amount of time frame that needs to go by. What are some of the biggest landmines that exist in certain states that we might want to be aware of? That's a great question. I think, first of all, one thing to remember is that we don't want divorce to last two to three years. That's a very long time to be sitting in uncertainty and conflict. And unfortunately, a lot of divorces do.

Starting point is 00:32:07 In fact, most divorces do. Now, that being said, divorce isn't going to happen overnight. We have to unwind a lot, and we have to do it in a way that sets us up for a really solid foundation going into our next chapter. So we're looking closer to six to eight months of this total process. Now, in some states, there are landmines that you absolutely need to be aware of. So as an example, in California, after you file your initial divorce petition, you can't

Starting point is 00:32:39 finalize it for another six months. So even if you have your agreement and you're ready to go, you still have to wait. It's called a waiting period. In other states, particularly some of the southern states like South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, there's actually a waiting period before you can even file for divorce. So that means that you can alert your spouse. You can, if you have somewhat of a cooperative relationship, you can start to work out the terms of your agreement. But you can't actually file for sometimes.

Starting point is 00:33:19 six months or a year until you've proven that you've been separated. And then states like South Carolina take it to a whole other level where they require a witness, a third party to say, yep, they didn't have sex. They weren't together. They've actually been separated before you can proceed. And then I think the biggest other landmine, and I would say completely unfair law, is that in some states, you can't finalize your divorce if you're pregnant. If you're with an abusive spouse, if you've been separated for seven years and you've moved on

Starting point is 00:33:56 with someone else, if you're pregnant, you can't in many states finalize that divorce. So these are rare exceptions, but they do come up. And it's a good example of just how punitive the divorce system can be, especially for women. Yeah. I'm glad you said it exactly that way because it's awesome. often how it feels. And we don't, we want to leave women at the end of this feeling empowered and knowledgeable, even though we know some of these things exist out there. My last question is, if there's anyone listening right now who might be wondering whether divorce is on the table for

Starting point is 00:34:31 them, what's something that you would hope that they would know or carry with them as they make that decision or before they make that decision? I think people know subconsciously or in their gut long before they're willing to say it out loud. And I would say listen to that piece, like listen to that part of you that every day is questioning the environment that you're in and what your relationship looks like. Divorce has evolved so much and yet there's still this culture of shame. I should be doing this. I should try harder. You did. You absolutely did. And this is where it's at. And sometimes relationships are just complete. They're not bad. They're not failed. They worked until they didn't. And it's so important to listen to that voice and give yourself

Starting point is 00:35:29 the freedom to be able to tell yourself, this is what I want. It doesn't mean you have to do anything today, but to make that decision when you're ready. Yeah. And based on our conversation, I would add believing that a good divorce is an available option. I think so often we default to it's going to be messy, it's going to be ugly, I'm going to get screwed, or whatever version of the bad version we hear about and see on TV all the time, what really jumped out to me is that a good divorce is an available option at a far greater rate that we might be thinking. And so what would be possible if we started with that as the goal or the baseline and move forward from there. So thank you for offering that perspective to all of us.

Starting point is 00:36:20 And I want to remind the listener that you can go to hellodivorce.com. The website has literally everything from divorce processes by state resources, like all different kinds of financial calculators, worksheets, checklists, even an opportunity to schedule a free information. call and a ton of other resources that Aaron already mentioned. And you can also follow Hello Divorce on Instagram. Aaron, thank you for doing this work for minimizing the chaos and the cost that we are seeing out there in the business world of divorce and for being here today. Thanks for having me. All right, friend, let me close us out with a quote, Aaron shared with me, and that's a good divorce is better than a bad marriage. And I think for a lot of people,

Starting point is 00:37:09 that statement feels borderline blasphemous. Because we've been taught that staying is noble, that enduring is admirable, and that sacrificing is just part of marriage, which is especially convenient for the partner benefiting from all of that sacrificing. But sometimes the bravest thing any of us can do is be honest about what's no longer working.

Starting point is 00:37:30 Whether divorce is something you've lived through, are considering, hope never applies to you, whatever the version is, this conversation is really about something bigger. Knowing your options, getting informed instead of staying afraid, and remembering that you are allowed, encouraged even, to have relationships that feel reciprocal and connected, a life that brings you joy, whether you share that life with a partner or not, because you only get this one life. So sometimes the most important relationship you save, and the only person you should never, ever leave, is yourself. And this is Woman's Work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - What a “Good Divorce” Can Look Like with Erin Levine | 426

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