This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - What Taylor Swift Teaches Us About Women, Influence, and Economic Power with Misty L. Heggeness | 400

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

Let’s get one thing straight: this is not a fan girl episode. It’s a masterclass in women’s economic power, using one of the most undeniable case studies of our time — Taylor Swift. In this episode of This Is Woman’s Work, Nicole Kalil sits down with economist and researcher Misty Heggeness, author of Swiftynomics, to break down what happens when women stop playing small and start reshaping entire industries. Because whether people like Taylor Swift or not? Irrelevant. What she’s done for ownership, influence, and economic impact? Undeniable. This conversation dives into the data behind the headlines — exposing how women have always been driving the economy… just without the credit. In this episode, they explore: What “Swiftynomics” actually means (and why it’s bigger than Taylor Swift) Why traditional economic metrics undervalue women (and always have) How women drive over 80% of consumer spending — and what that means for power The rise of female-led content, companies, and cultural influence Why backlash against powerful women is predictable… and irrelevant The economic shift happening when women support women — and stop supporting what doesn’t support them Why equity in the workplace and at home benefits everyone (yes, even men) This isn’t about celebrity. It’s about who holds power, who gets recognized for it, and who’s done waiting for permission. This episode reframes Taylor Swift as more than a pop icon — she’s proof of what happens when women own their work, their voice, and their value, and in doing so, redefine the entire economic landscape. Thank you to our sponsors! Shopify has everything all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial today at shopify.com/tiww  Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It’s all-in-one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use—so you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere! Try Gusto today at gusto.com/TIWW, and get three months free when you run your first payroll. Refresh your spring wardrobe with Quince. Go to Quince.com/TIWW for free shipping and 365-day returns! Connect with Misty: Website: https://www.mistyheggeness.com/  Book: https://www.instagram.com/swiftynomics/  Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/swiftynomics.bsky.social  X: https://bsky.app/profile/swiftynomics.bsky.social  Related Podcast Episodes: Holding It Together: Women As America's Safety Net with Jessica Calarco | 215 How To Cultivate Audacity with Anne Marie Anderson | 276 Joan Lunden on Reinvention, Leadership & Life Beyond the Script | 392 Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review:Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means. what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, and at least for today, from Grammys to multi-billion dollar tours. Yes, at first glance, this episode might seem like an unexpected turn

or an odd topic for us to cover. But I can assure you, it's about as on-brand as it gets, because today we're talking about Swiftinomics, using Taylor Swift as a very real, very data-backed lesson and how women are redefining our economy. This is not a fan girl episode, though. Full transparency, I'm absolutely a fan. I have a 12-year-old daughter.

I have my own favorite Taylor Swift song that I listen to on repeat, even when she's not in the car. And look, you do not have to like her music. Taste is subjective. Some people's favorite genres make me want to jam a pen in my eye. And you don't have to like her, either. You are always the decider here. But what I will not concede, what I genuinely cannot understand

is how any woman could dismiss or diminish what she has done. You don't like her sound? Fine. You don't connect to her lyrics? Cool. But if you can't shut your piehole long enough to acknowledge respect and appreciate what she has accomplished, her success, ownership, power, and opportunity in an industry that was never built with her and mine? Well, then with all due respect, and in this case, the respect that's due is none, shut the fuck up. This woman didn't just change an industry. She changed the economy. And none of us, not you, not me, have ever even come close to that level of impact. So today, we're not talking about Taylor Swift as a pop star. We're talking about her as a working woman, a case study, a signal, and a mirror for women's economic power that has

been hiding in plain sight for decades. So, yeah, this conversation matters. And that's why we're having it with somebody who actually understands the data behind the devotion. Misty Hagenes is an associate professor in the School of Public Affairs and Administration and an Associate Research Scientist at the Institute for Policy and Social Research at the University of Kansas. She's spent more than a decade leading high-profile economic research that informs federal government decision-making focusing on poverty and inequality, gender economics, economic demography, and the high-skilled workforce. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, NPR, The Economist, and Science. And she is the author of the upcoming book,

Swiftinomics, how women mastermind and redefine our economy. Christy, welcome to the show. And I think that the obvious best place to start is to ask you to define Swiftinomics. What are we talking about here? Yeah, Nicole, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you about this topic and to be here today. Swiftinomics for me is really about us as a society recognizing the value and economic contributions that women have brought to economic growth, to the workplace and to all. all the spheres of society and the economy outside of our homes. Yeah. Okay. And that is, I think, a lot more substantial than we often hear or think or give credit to.

So could you give us some data, give us some information about what that means and looks like? I've heard somewhere that, like, women drive about 80% of consumer spending. I mean, we are in big decision-making seats here. So, okay, all that to say, can you give us some data that sort of backs up this claim? Yeah. So for me, where this all really started is just when I took on my role as a caregiver in my family. So I have two teenage kids right now. And it shouldn't really matter whether or not I am making a meal for my family in my house or whether I am working as a cook in a restaurant as to whether or not society values that contribution in terms of quantifying it and recognizing it. So I'm a nerdy statistician. I worked in the federal government and statistical agencies for many years. And so I've seen how we develop economic statistics.

And we tend to often undervalue and or ignore all of the economic activity that women do. And so part of my goal with this book is to bring all of that work and effort to the forefront. And that includes unpaid labor. It includes some of the invisible labor that we do with our families. one of my most favorite statistics is to look at the amount of economic activity individuals do on any given day. And regardless of whether or not they're paid a wage for that activity, if you look at instead of wage labor, if you look at economic activity, women on average do one hour, one additional hour of economic activity a day that conversely men have one extra hour of leisure a day.

And that may not seem like much, washing a load of clothes, you know, cooking. a meal, cooking dinner. But when you add that up over a year, that's like two to three additional months of economic activity that women are doing in our society relative to men. And when we think about the economy and we think about capturing some of this activity and statistics, we often think about labor force participation where, you know, for example, men who have children, their labor force participation is about, you know, above 95 percent. For women, which, children, it's, you know, between 60 to 70. Now it's up to about 75%. And so if we look at the indicators that we are measuring ourselves by officially or formally, it looks like women are less active and

less productive when actually the opposite is true. Okay. So I equate economic impact with power. Is that a fair connection or we're undervaluing that power in so many ways? Can we talk a little bit about that. What's your perspective? Yeah. For me, the way that I try to understand this is by looking generationally at kind of the way that women's economic power has ebb and flowed over the history of the course of time. And one thing that's clear to me and it became clear to me by doing the research for this book is that we have more women in positions of power within businesses and within government today than we ever have. We have more women in management and executive suite positions. Still, it's not at parity, but we have more. And so what's happening today and what makes it different from the

past is that these women are in those positions and they are engaging in activities that support female content that support female investment. And the product of that is you're seeing things like the Barbie movie being made. You're seeing things like the ERAs tour. You're seeing things like the ERAs tour. being developed and going around to where you're seeing, you know, Reese Witherspoon came out with a company called Hello Sunshine, and that was basically, you know, her response to Hollywood executives, predominantly men, only really investing in content that was specific or attractive to a male audience. And she wanted to have more content out there that really spoke to the needs and desires of women. And so the fact that we are seeing women move into positions of power today,

where they are having influence over consumer content, where they are having influence over developing, you know, the next generation of whether it's movies or, you know, you think about women's sports. And I live in Kansas City. And we have the professional women's sports team, Casey Current, who just two or three years ago built the first state. for solely for the purpose of a women's professional soccer team. So that's what I'm trying to celebrate in this book is that even though we're in times that seem contentious, even though we're in times where it seems like we're backsliding, you know, that gives me hope because it means that, you know, in some sense, we've kind of poked the bare enough on traditional norms

that people who want those traditional norms are pushing back. But it doesn't mean that women have stopped advancing and fighting and developing, you know, content that's meaningful for them. And that is, I think, unique to this era and we should celebrate it. I'm curious, this thought kept going through my head. Obviously, this podcast being called This is Woman's Work is an example of something that's created by a woman with women in mind. And I think about that and I try to support that everywhere I see it. And then the flip side, too, is I often pay attention or choose not to support things that feel anti-women.

Like sometimes companies, they'll post like something with their leadership team and it's 100% men. And I'm like, not my company. Sorry, I'll work with someone else, right? And I do not advocate for women at the expense of men. I am not anti-men. But do you see any sort of economic backlash or results that show that women are taking their dollars and their power elsewhere when it comes to maybe the more traditional content or products that were created without women in mind? I mean, and I think it comes down to what I was speaking to earlier, which is just that every time throughout history where women have pushed forward enough, to make advances in certain spaces that have made others uncomfortable, you do feel this pushback.

And, you know, I think that's the moment that we're in right now. It doesn't worry me because, you know, women aren't going anywhere. And I think it's actually, you know, diversifying the market and diversifying consumer content is generally considered a good thing in a capitalist society. So having more content that's created for the female consumer is good. And I think the reason why you're seeing businesses tap into that today is really because, you know, you have women have higher levels of education today than they ever have in the past. You know, women more and more are searching for careers, not jobs. Women are, you know, less likely to have children. And if they do have children, they have them later.

And so all of those things are creating a source of economic power within communities of women across the nation. And again, I think that's a good thing. And the companies that resist, the companies maybe who are all male dominated or who don't want to invest in or see this space, you know, in the long run, they'll lose out. Like, you know, economic theory will tell you that. And so it's more, I think what we need to do today is really craft a discourse and a discussion where we're talking across genders. We're talking to each other, not at each other. and couples today are more interested in equity, not only in the office and in the workplace, but also in the home. And I think that's where the discussions really need to, you know, we need more of those discussions and at a faster pace, especially for those who are concerned about younger generations and whether or not they want to build families. Of course, they want to, but the incentives are different. Yeah, I personally believe that striving for equity benefits all of us across genders. And I know that sometimes feels hard to believe that when we advocate for women, I think sometimes it feels like men are losing. But that is not, at least not my intention. And that doesn't seem to be supported by any evidence, if anything, we all get better in more equitable societies and opportunities. But can I just jump off that really quick? Because I feel like,

You know, I'm okay with men not doing as good today as they have in the past because in the past they've had such a huge advantage. And, you know, in order for women to kind of climb up a little bit, men are going to have to climb down a little bit, right? And so whether that means men, you know, take on more care responsibilities in the home or, you know, rebalance that so that women can stay more attached to their jobs, like, I don't know. But invisible labor and domestic labor is time intensive and time specific. And so it's really impossible for us to have some sort of belief that we're going to be able to pull women up to the level that men are right now and nothing else is going to give. Like that's just not possible. Yeah. So that's really interesting.

And I was thinking like what was going on in my brain when I said that. And it's interesting because you're right. And I kind of think some of the, if women are coming up and men are going down, some of the things that we look at with them going down, I actually perceive that. as them going up. So I'll give the example, men being more engaged in family. To me, that's a positive. Yes, I get all of the mental workload and the household. Like, we don't always enjoy that, but it's more enjoyable when it's shared. Yeah. And if they pick up a little and we lose a little, I actually think we'll both feel a little bit better at the end of the day. I do find, and maybe it's just a circle I run with, but I do find that men want to be more involved.

in their family. They want to have more of a balanced life and career. They want to be very active and involved in parenting. And so, yes, I am okay, especially with the mediocre man who's been given every opportunity because of who they know and who they golf with. I am absolutely okay with them having to set back in order for us to step forward. Yeah. But I don't perceive it across the board to be that way. I do think that there is a benefit to men to have more balanced, more engaged involvement, having happiness come from other aspects of their life besides just providing and success and all of that. Your thoughts there? Yeah, I mean, I agree. You know, the rigid stereotypical or traditional kind of family formation that's really hard

driven by gendered expectations, not only does it do a disservice for women, it also does a disservice for men, and exactly because of what you're saying. So I imagine it's not comfortable. So I'm in a two-income family, but I imagine, you know, if I was a sole income provider for my family, that's a stressful space to be in. And so when we ascribe people roles based on their gender versus letting them find the ways in which they can have the most fulfilling life and be the most productive because they're aligned with what their passions are and they're aligned with how they see themselves best fitting in the world. Like, you know, that's a much better space to live in.

And, you know, that's not going to be the same for all girls, just like it's not the same for all boys. Sorry to break in, but this part matters. Rate the show, share it, and support the sponsor so I can keep making episodes worth interrupting you for. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $24.50 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields like software development and information technology. Learn more at About Amazon. Is there a baby in your life who's about to start solid foods?

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You really just hit on the mission of this show, you know, to redefine woman's work with a new definition being whatever feels true and real and right for you. You were the decider. And, you know, under that definition, in theory we could all do women's work regardless of gender.

Okay. So I have some notion as to why, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. Why choose Taylor Swift as the point person for this trend? Yeah. So that's a great question. You know, I come at this a little bit late, I would say, in the Taylor Swift fandom. I, again, I was working in the leadership role in a statistical agency in the federal

government when the album lover came out. And I just happened to see on social media the music video for The Man. And I just so over-identified with the lyrics in that song. And then I thought the video was like over-the-top such high quality. And, you know, you make it to the end. and you get this little surprise of who the man is. And it was so much fun. And so I started following Taylor then that was in 2019.

And then during the pandemic, you know, I was trapped in my house with my 10 and 12 year old and my spouse, just like so many of us were trapped in our homes. I was trying to do economic research for my job. And the only thing that I could really focus on was looking at what was going on with mothers labor horse participation. And so I published one of the first papers that came out on the effect of the pandemic closures on mom's labor supply.

And I started interacting with journalists. And, you know, that's where I decided I want to write the book. And then during that same time, Taylor came out with folklore and Evermore. You know, so during the pandemic, she was just hyperproductive. And I had kind of been following her career for a few years by then. And it just dawned on me that, you know, the way that we talk about women and in the narrative that we have for women and women in work kind of at the national level and in society is so steep. in tradition and traditional roles. And what I was seeing in the data for women and women's work during the pandemic and mother's work in particular was very different. And it just dawned on me

that Taylor's career path, you know, it is different, but, you know, she's been so successful, even as a woman in a very misogynistic industry. And she's survived. And so I just started digging into more of the details of her career path. And I just felt like she was such an incredible muse in thinking about how she maneuvered situations and how she handled herself. And I just thought she would be a great muse for the book, you know, in thinking about the modern economic woman. Yeah, couldn't agree more.

I knew of Taylor Swift, obviously, and heard a few of her songs. Wasn't a fan, but didn't have anything bad to say. It just, you know, was kind of indifferent until my daughter really got into her and we went to her concert. And I know this is ridiculous, but Jay was able to get tickets and we did not have good seats. But we went kind of like, all right, let's see what this is about.

It was the rainiest show she had ever done. We were at Gillette Stadium. And it was dumping rain the entire time, like did not let up. She swiped water off the top of the piano and it just gushed. Like, I mean, I can't even, we were in ponchos and raincoat. And all I can tell you is none of the fans ever sat and she did not let up for a second. She delivered every second at the highest level. She didn't shorten.

She didn't complain. She didn't. And she won all of my respect in that experience. And then just paying attention to her since then. And yes, the thing she's done for the economy in the cities, she tours in. The way it seems she treats her team and her employees, how she stands up for herself, how she carries herself,

how she fought for ownership over her own music. I mean, there were so, so, so many examples. So that leads to my question, what are your thoughts, the stupid things that people say or the comments or the opinions? What does everybody's strong opinions against her tell us about how people feel about our economic power as women. Yeah.

This is the other reason why I have her as amused at this book because, you know, she has always been really authentic. You know, she's always leaned in, leaned into that authenticity of what she likes and what she wants to do and then leaned into really being authentic with her fans as well. And the fact of the matter is she is, well, she's like 36 now, so she's not really young, young anymore. But, you know, she grew up in the industry as a young, white, blue-eyed, blonde, skinny girl. And in our society, we have a tendency to really devalue those characteristics and to assign those characteristics with somebody who's not

smart or somebody who isn't worth paying attention to. Or, you know, I always laugh every time I hear somebody be really confused about Taylor's fame because it's just that. I think we live in a very misogynistic society and that means that you don't just have to be male to be to have, you know, misogynistic tendencies or to think about stereotypes in a certain way. And one of the things that I think is really interesting about focusing on Taylor is that she's got a lot of characteristics that maybe feminists who don't follow her closely enough or don't listen to the lyrics that she writes would assume, oh, she's not feminist enough for us or on and on, yada, yada. But it's so fun to have somebody with her persona who likes glitter, who likes cats, who if she's not on stage

performing and she's just walking around, she's pretty like gangly, you know, she's not very smooth. And it's just so fun to have somebody with all of those characteristics who, and to see her just excel, excel, you know, nobody can hold her back. And that's the other reason, because I don't think that in order to be powerful women, you know, we need to ascribe to looking like men. And I think one of the things that Taylor does so authentically again is she has really, really strong female characteristics, but she really just leans in to her business and to her talent. And she really doesn't let all of the noise, you know, in the long run, bother her. Maybe at one point when she was younger, there were moments where it got in the way. But there's so many girls out there who will hear

those negative comments and then internalize for themselves that they're worthless or they're not worth going down road A or road B for a career. Or they just can think that they're They shouldn't be taken seriously because society continually doesn't take them seriously. And I think that those girls in particular have a lot to learn from Taylor in terms of flipping that around and not letting those stereotypes drive who you become. Yeah. Listen, if I could create and choose a list of women to be a role model to my daughter, she is absolutely on the list. All those things. And then that leads me to my, I think big question is. do you think women specifically are ready for confident, business savvy, successful women like Taylor Swift? Or are we holding each other and therefore ourselves back?

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I don't know if we're ready, but we should be ready. Like we should get fucking ready. Yeah, you know, like let's lean into that. Like let's just, and again, it's one of the reasons why I chose. Taylor because I want to lean into that. Like I, you know, we need to lean into that more. And, you know, women are used to kind of pushing the agenda from the shadows. And I don't, I don't think Taylor does that. I think she pushes the agenda right in front of us. She does it in very subtle ways. So, you know,

my most favorite Taylor Swift songs are the songs that are very feminist in nature, you know, no body, no crime, vigilantey shit, canceled, like all of those that speak to what it's like to live in a society that might not believe you or that might underestimate you or that might tell stories or bad press about you for no reason. And I just, I think we need more tailors in the world, honestly. Couldn't agree more. My last question is I'm not an economics expert. That's why you're on the show.

Are there any questions that I didn't ask about women in the economy that I should have? I don't think so. I mean, for me, the biggest takeaways and the biggest things for us to focus on is, again, valuing invisible labor, you know, getting society to value invisible labor, recognizing it, supporting it through social policies. I get a lot of strength from looking back into the past and looking what women have accomplished. And that's part of, there's a couple of chapters in my book where I talk about generations and I talk about motherhood. And I think that when we look back to what women have accomplished in the past. It's a big source of strength and support for

those of us who are pushing forward for something better today. And so, you know, those are my, my big takeaways from an economic perspective. And I guess the last thing that I would say is, I think what Taylor has done since she was a teenager, when she was a teenager, she wanted to write songs about other teenage girls and do it with country music. And the country music executives said, thanks, but no thanks. We don't think that there's a consumer base there. We don't don't think we can make any money off of that. And well, boy, were they wrong. And so, you know, one of the things that I think that gives me lots of joy in thinking about Taylor's career path is that she has really created so much content that is so relatable really for everybody, but in particular

for women and content that we don't always hear in the mainstream. And so, you know, I think today more than ever is is the day where marketers really need to be focusing on female consumers and what female consumers are interested in consuming and and you know it's no longer just the days of you know vacuums and dishwashers and things that give us joy and so it's just a different world out there today and it's a better place for all of us to be so and one that I think we have so much more impact and power than we give ourselves credit. So for you, the listener, a reminder, the book is called Swiftinomics. You can go to Swiftenomics.com or buy the book on Amazon or let's keep your local bookstores in business. Misty, thank you for being here today, for writing this book and for

reminding us all of the power that we all have and the respect that people like Taylor Swift or do. So thank you. Thanks, Nicole. All right, friend, you do what's true and real. and right for you. Full stop, no negotiations. And when you see another woman doing that too, instead of judging it, minimizing it, or rolling your eyes, let's celebrate it. Because women owning their choices, their work and their power is how the economy shifts. It's how everything shifts. It's how we change the rules and the game. And all of that is woman's work.