This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Who’s Entitled Now?! with Dr. Jessica Kriegel | 237

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

On this episode of This Is Woman’s Work, we talk about how to build an intentional workplace culture that powers strategy and drives growth, and how to be a leader in that culture transformation.  Buckle up friend, because this topic is a big and powerful one. I’ve invited Dr. Jessica Kriegel, Chief Scientist of Workplace Culture for Culture Partners, where they do research and strategy in best practices for driving results through culture, to be our guest. For over 15 years, Jessica has been guiding global, national, Fortune 100, and other organizations across finance, technology, real estate, and healthcare industries on the path to creating intentional cultures that accelerate performance. As a keynote speaker, Jessica leverages her current research and experience in global organizational culture innovation, providing leaders with the map and tools for how to build cultures that deliver results. I believe that now more than ever, people and cultures are craving leadership. They’re craving a feeling of belonging and connectedness, of acceptance and of growth, of challenge and celebration. Who better to give it to them than you? Connect with Jessica: Website: https://www.jessicakriegel.com/  LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicakriegel/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5jiv5thKnyk9LjtesG8BbA  IG: https://www.instagram.com/jess_kriegel/  Podcast: Culture Leaders - https://www.jessicakriegel.com/podcast/ Like what you heard? Please rate and review

I am Nicole Kalil, and you are listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today with you as the decider. Because whatever feels right and true and authentic to you, that's what it means to be doing woman's work for you. Because identifying as a woman may impact or inform how we see the world and ourselves, but it shouldn't limit it. And when I started this podcast almost five years ago, I knew I wanted to cover a whole gamut of topics. I wanted this podcast to be as multifaceted as we are.

So we sort of went with the idea that if it impacts women, we're going to talk about it. So we cover internal things like fear, stress, motivation, and confidence. We talk about relationships of all kinds. We cover work and home and raising kids and choosing not to have kids and feeling burnt out and finding our purpose and feeling inspired and feeling pissed off. We're constantly on the prowl for new and interesting topics that you'll find relevant. And we also look for topics that are not at all new with guests that offer a unique or fresh perspective. And today is one of those.

Our topic today is one that has probably been covered on one billion different podcasts and books and trainings and speeches. Today, we're going to talk about culture. And because culture has become one of those buzzwords that people throw around so much that it's lost a lot of its meaning, I'm going to define it for us real quick. And this was by Google, by the way. Culture is a concept that encompasses the behaviors, knowledge, beliefs, arts, laws, customs, symbols, capabilities, and habits of the individuals within a particular group. Now, our guests may have a different and probably better definition, but I'm going to offer that

as our initial baseline. We all live and work within a culture. But I think I speak for many of us when I say that culture feels like a concept that's hard to grasp and even harder to change or impact. I find that people, especially leaders, can often articulate the culture they want, but have a much harder time with the culture they have. So we're going to talk about how to build an intentional workplace culture that powers strategy and drives growth, and how to be a leader in culture transformation. Buckle up, friend, because this topic is big and powerful. I've invited Dr. Jessica Kriegel, Chief Scientist of Workplace Culture

for Culture Partners, where they do research and strategy and best practices for driving results through culture. For over 15 years, Jessica has been guiding global national Fortune 100 and other organizations across finance, technology, real estate, and healthcare industries on the path to creating intentional cultures that accelerate performance. As a keynote speaker, Jessica leverages her current research and experience in global organizational culture innovation, providing leaders with the map and tools for how to build cultures that deliver results. So Jessica, thank you for joining me. And I have many, many questions for you,

but I wanna start by asking one that might be a little strange because what I've noticed is that leaders care a lot about culture. It's like that buzzword that is instantly interesting to a leader. But I'm not so sure that people on teams or employees care as much about it.

So my first question is, how do we get employees to give a shit about culture and the part they play in it? So, well, I mean, I think that they do give a shit. They just may not use that language, right? So I loved, I kind of chuckled when you gave the Google definition of culture because the Google definition of culture is, it's so all encompassing. It's a laundry list. It's the beliefs and the behaviors and the symbols and the norms. And so how can you possibly grasp how to influence an intentional culture when it's a thousand different things. So I simplify it, but at Culture Partners, we call it the way that people think and act to get results. And that is so clearly important to employees. The way that people think and act around them

at work affects the experiences that they're having. It affects the beliefs they hold about the nature of work and their colleagues and their importance in that work and whether or not they're being valued. And it affects the results that they're getting, which ultimately affects job security and pay. And so it is deeply important to us. The problem is the word culture is so confusing and hasn't been generally agreed upon. But if I just say, do you care about the way that people think and act at work?

The answer is a resounding yes. And that's true for leaders and employees. Now, the question is, how do you transform the way that people think and act at work. That's what I think is the secret sauce to driving results. It's the secret sauce to being happy at work. And being happy at work doesn't drive results, but it's nice. I mean, why not? As a little intangible benefit of driving results, why don't we also enjoy it? Wouldn't that be lovely? So I think you get people to care about it by helping them understand what we're really talking about. Agreed. Because as I said, it's a hard to grasp concept.

It feels very big and important and yet hard to pin down. So I love your definition. And you're right. I don't know anybody who would be like, yep, don't care about that at all. Having said that, I think sometimes cultures or leaders, if we take that definition, the way people think and act to get results, I find sometimes leaders hone in on the last part only, the get results part. Yeah. Yeah.

Of course. So how do we help people with the way they think and act, the sort of, I don't know, lead indicators in order to get that result. Because I find if cultures are only ever results oriented, it can be alienating for the people in it. Thoughts, reactions? Yeah. This is the meaning of my life. I mean, this is at the core of everything that I'm doing. So I don't think it has to be a binary either or situation, right? I think that you can drive results and that the way to do that most effectively is how people think and act at work through culture. And it can be a win-win. But what I think most leaders get confused about is they

feel like it's either people or profit. And if we're going to invest in people, that's at the expense of profit. And if we're going to try and drive profit, it's at the expense of people. And that is a black and white way of thinking that hurts people and profit, frankly, right? So, you know, the purpose of business is to drive shareholder value. And the purpose of leaders is to get the business to drive shareholder value. So I think their focus on results isn't bad or wrong. And the complicating nuance was where the gray area comes in. You can get results with crappy culture. You can have a toxic culture and it will drive results. I can tell you that because I've worked at numerous organizations that did. And I was miserable and my colleagues were miserable, but the company was profitable. And there it is. That's all you really need to realize that culture maybe doesn't matter,

right? But what we did research last year with Stanford University, where we looked at 243 companies and we were looking at large organizations. I mean, McDonald's, Coca-Cola were on the list, right? And we're looking at their revenue and their culture and their strategic plan and their purpose. And we're looking over the course of three years and we found companies with crappy culture, they were profitable. They did drive growth of 10% over the course of that three years. And you look at that and you're like, yeah, see, bad culture doesn't make a difference.

But the companies who had great culture, they drove 4x those results. So if you want the growth that anyone can get, don't care about culture, fine. But if you want that transformative, amazing growth that sustains over time, then culture is actually the differentiator. I mean, ask the most ruthless CEO right now. Let me talk to Elon Musk today and say, Elon Musk, does it make a difference the way that people think and act at your company to drive bottom line results? He will say yes. It doesn't mean that he cares about how people feel, but he does care about how people think and act. And I'm like rambling right now. But the last thing I will say is the type of culture is something that I don't get involved in, in terms of, I don't think that, you know, a DEI focused culture is better than one that's

not, or a innovative culture is better than one that's not. Every culture needs to be aligned with the strategy and the purpose in order to drive results. That's the second outcome that we saw in our Stanford research, that alignment of purpose, strategy, and culture drove 3X results, then misalignment. And misalignment is pretty common, right? Because you get purpose statements that were written by the founder 30 years ago, a strategy that was created in a boardroom by a bunch of executives, and then a culture that's like delegated to HR, you know, and those things aren't all connected. And that doesn't drive results as much as when they are a cohesive plan. So yeah, I mean, culture does matter. I'm culture agnostic. So I just want to help you get aligned. I don't want to come in and say,

you've got to do it like Netflix did because, you worked for Netflix. It's not going to work for Union Pacific. I'm so glad that you said that, because I think people think there is one culture that works, and we've got to figure out how to get that. As you were talking, I was thinking, I know some organizations that have brought in ping pong tables and I'm like, okay, that might work in Google where creativity or whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. Right. Yeah. But in that particular organization, it made absolutely no sense. So I think we can learn from other people and pay attention to other people, but we can't borrow somebody else's culture unless our goals, our results,

our shareholders, and all that are the same. Again, is that a fair statement? Totally. I love that you said that. And I would even take it a step further and say that the ping pong tables didn't work at Google either. That wasn't a culture thing. I mean, tell me, how does ping pong tables change how you think and act at work to drive results. That wasn't a culture thing. I mean, tell me, how does ping pong tables change how you think and act at work to drive results? It doesn't. It's like a fun thing to do on the break room when you're not working. And that's great. I don't, I'm not anti ping pong table, but ping pong tables aren't culture. What is culture is, you know, what are the shared beliefs that we have about the way that we work?

And not, did I get free kombucha today? Free kombucha is not culture either. And interestingly, this is my beliefs. I've been saying this for 10 years, actually. When Google came out with the ping pong tables and the bring your dog to work day and all of those fancy things that they were doing that made headlines 30 years ago, that was a PR stunt. That was a marketing initiative, not an HR initiative, because they were trying to, they

were a B2C business. Like in the beginning, they were trying to get users, right? This was 30 years ago. And they were trying to figure out how to be cool so that consumers would switch over from, I don't even know what we were using before Google Ask Jeeves. I don't know. But they were trying to get people to think Google is cool. Don't be evil. Look at us. We bring our dogs to work and we have ping pong tables. Isn't that awesome? And all of the B2C companies followed suit, right? Like those, you know, Facebooks and the Twitters, they started having cool offices. You know who didn't do that? All the B2B businesses in Silicon Valley, like Oracle and SAP and IBM. They were gray cubicles all day long

because they weren't trying to seem cool. It was a PR stunt. It was never an HR initiative. And it didn't drive the, you know, that wasn't what made Google successful. That was just cool. Okay. So thank you for saying that. And then, you know, what does impact the way people think and act to get results? And I know from your team, you have something called the culture equation. Does that tie in here? What can we do to impact culture? Yeah. So actually what I would say, the simplest answer is a different framework we use called the results pyramid. And so at the top of the results pyramid is, you guessed it, results. Because ultimately that is what we're here to create at business, right? If we don't create results, we can't continue to live our mission. So we have to be profitable to keep going to do good in the

world. So I'm not anti-capitalist. I'm just saying there's a better way to go about it. So how do we get results through actions, people doing stuff, right? That's the act part of think and act. And unfortunately, that's where most leaders stop thinking. They're like, results come from actions. I'm going to focus on what people are doing all day long. Did you make the sales call? How did the sales call go? Did you track that sales call? Tell me more about how many sales calls you did this week, right? And that leads to burnout, not just of the employee, but also of the manager who's having to keep track of it. So instead, you got to go lower in the results pyramid, which is what drives our actions. Well, what drives our actions is our beliefs, the mindset we have about what's important and how we

act and whether or not we matter. And the way that you transform beliefs is through intentional experiences that you create for employees that will drive the right beliefs. So my cousin just had a belief where she asked if she could work from home and her boss said, no, you can't work from home because I just can't get past the idea that people are, you know, are going to be working all day long. I just don't see it. They're going to be doing laundry. They're going to be going out. And what experience my cousin had was they don't think I have integrity. That's the experience that she had. So she was denied her request to work from home, even though her boss works from home and a bunch of other people in the company work from home. But it felt like she was being told

that was the belief. They don't think I have integrity, which is going to lead her to an action, which is she is looking for a job furiously and will quit the second she finds one. That's the result that the company is going to get. So the first thing you need to do is figure out what results are we trying to achieve? The second question you can ask yourself as a leader is what are the shared beliefs that may be getting in the way of us achieving those results. And what experiences do I need to create in order to change those beliefs? And that is how you move the needle on culture at scale. So I think beliefs can be a little hard. They feel long held, especially with older companies or people who've already achieved

some measure of success. So how might you go about getting leaders to, I don't know if challenge is the right word, question, be curious about some of their longstanding beliefs and whether or not they are still driving the results that they want? Yeah, great question. So this is a matter of listening to your employees, getting them in a room and saying, literally, here's the language. What shared beliefs do you think are currently held at this organization that are getting in the way of us achieving our key result? Whatever that is, a revenue number, an efficiency number, a quality number,

whatever it is, safety number, and then get them to share what they think they are. And you, I mean, you know, we've facilitated, I would say tens of thousands of conversations like that in the last 30 years of our existence, 35 years of our existence. And you would be probably unsurprised at how consistent the room always is. Someone says something, everyone says, yeah, that the room always is. Someone says something, everyone says, yeah, that's totally true. Someone else says something, yeah, that's totally true. It's very rare that you get a room of people who have completely different shared beliefs. And so having that conversation is healing in and of itself, but then it also allows you to get a goal.

So now the next question is, and what do you think the shared beliefs need to be for us to achieve our goal? Then they share those. Now that's where you may have some different opinions. We have a lot of research on you can be explicit about what they should be, then you can start to reinforce those on a daily basis by talking about, this is the belief we're trying to reinforce. Let me, for example, recognize Nicole for demonstrating that belief. Nicole did XYZ today. That was a great demonstration of this belief we're trying to nurture. And by doing that, she's going to help us achieve our key result. Thank you, Nicole, for doing that. And then you're telling stories about how Nicole took a belief, which was an idea, and made it an action in a moment, and how it's going to affect our key result. And basically, that's taking what is typically implicit and making it explicit.

We usually just say, Nicole, great job on that presentation. And there's a whole bunch of unsaid words in that recognition that are like, the reason that was a good job is because you did this, which was a demonstration of this belief, which we want to encourage, which is going to help us achieve our result. And when you connect the dots out loud, you become much more clear and intentional about the culture that you're creating. And it's a powerful tool. I mean, that's essentially, if I were to say everything that we do boils down to this one idea, it's that it's getting people to talk about culture. And it makes so much sense from the frame of repetition is the mother of all learning, right? Like you can say something once, but then if you give feedback, like that was a good presentation and don't reinforce why it was a good presentation

and why it ties into the beliefs and the thoughts and the actions then, because I don't know if you've experienced this, but one of the, I feel like it's a mistake. One of the things that I observe is people will pull their employees or they'll get in a room or bring in a facilitator and they'll ask all the questions and then nothing happens. And I think the employees almost feel worse than if they wouldn't have been asked in the first place because it's like you asked my opinion, but you didn't do anything with it or it wasn't valued or it didn't create any sort of change. So then I guess that leads to my question is once you've gathered some information, what are some good next steps to testing, getting into action, showing your

employees and your teams that you are serious about this? Yeah, it's such a great question. And I agree that if you're not going to take action, then it's best not to ask the question because that is demoralizing. And, you know, there's also some nuance here, too. I mean, business is so much gray area. I worked at Oracle for 10 years and I was on the team that was in charge of analyzing the employee engagement survey data and then putting it into action. And it's a large organization, right? There's 144,000 people working at Oracle. And the team I was on, which was the HR team, was deeply passionate about this and cared a lot about what employees thought and wanted to put everything into action. Right. But then it's not just up to HR. So you take the survey, which at Oracle was once a year, which is, you know,

see you in October. We'll find out what you think again in 365 days. Right. And it's such a system to get 140,000 people to fill out a survey. And, you know, you got to leave it open for three weeks. And because then you got to send out the seven reminder emails and then it closes and the vendor has to do the data analysis. And it's all this, you know, triangulation of departments and who said what and analysis. And then you get the analysis and you have to put it into a format that's readable. And then once it is, then you present it to the CEO. And at Oracle anyway, first of all, there were two CEOs. Neither of them were Larry Ellison, who's really running the show over there. And so you've got all of these different characters who are now being shown the feedback and they're the busiest

people on the planet. And some of the stuff that they're reading isn't exactly exciting to talk about because there's feedback on, we're not getting paid enough. So what are you going to announce to the whole company that you all don't think you're getting paid enough? No, they're not going to do that. That's not the culture at Oracle, right? Oracle is not the highest paying tech company, but there's a lot of tenure there because it is a lot of job security. It's great benefits. It's work-life balance. It's great, smart people to work with. There's a million other things that people stay for. And so they're like, well, take that part out, right? Like we don't want to share that part. And then, so then HR is being told you can't share this data. And then, you know,

before you start sharing anything, you got to socialize it with all of the executive vice presidents. OK, well, now we got to get on their calendar. That's another four weeks. So it's three months until something gets shared, let alone done. And they did do things. They created executive committees that would try and address the three big things that emerged. Right. But how often do does a frontline individual contributor at Oracle actually hear about all of that stuff that's happening at the top level? that makes them believe something's been done about it. And meanwhile, hundreds of, quote, man and woman hours are being spent on this survey, right? So here's my point is sometimes it's not easy to get credit for what is being done.

And that creates a negative experience, which will lead to a belief no one cares about me. And that's really unfortunate. So I like to consider leaders, the chief repetition officers, if it's important, say it seven times in seven ways, right? And say it so often that you get embarrassed with how repetitive you've been, because then they might actually hear you, which I think is great. But frankly, people aren't listening enough and they aren't taking action because they're focusing on what's urgent and not what's important. And because we're so focused on results and leaders are being, they're scared that they're not going to hit their results. So they don't have time for that

employee engagement stuff. And that's just the nature of the beast, right? I mean, that's just the way that business is. And I haven't cracked the code on that, frankly. Well, and I mean, there's so much reality to everything that you just shared. So I think that was a really realistic example. Okay. So I find like each generation or where different things are happening that people are curious about, worried about, impacted by. So most recently things like quiet quitting, great resignation, work from, you learn, you change. Sometimes you change opinions. I'm not saying I changed an opinion, but I wrote a book about generational dynamics 10 years ago where I was saying, we're not that different. Stop using these labels to stereotype people. Gen Z aren't as screwed up as we say they are, right? As I get older,

now I'm in my 40s, I'm like, God, those Gen Zers are just a piece of work, aren't they? I'm watching myself do the stereotyping that I wrote the book about 10 years ago when I was in my 30s and I was taking the brunt of the stereotyping a lot. I don't think it's a generational issue. I think what's happening is employee expectations are changing and the nature of work is shifting. And people who are sharing information on social media about their frustrations are finding their echo chambers where they are seeing other frustrated people. And those are echo chambers that we didn't have 20 years ago. So I could feel frustrated,

but everyone's acting normal around me. So I'm just like, I got to suck it up. But now I'm seeing people crying about getting their first job and having to work eight hour days. And I just, I cannot forget that TikTok of that young woman who had her first week of work. And she's just like, when am I going to have time to find a husband? Like, I wake up, I drive an hour, I go to work, I come home, I drive home, I'm tired, I cook dinner, I go to sleep. I'm never going to have a life again. And it's a shock for her, right? And I totally get it because I have felt that in so many times in my career. When I had to go into the office a million years ago, when I was working in London, I had that feeling. But everyone around me showed up at work smiling and I was like, I guess I've just got to act like this doesn't feel like death, right? So expectations are changing and the multi-directional

nature of information sharing is new. It used to be top-down information sharing and familial networks of information sharing. But now, people are literally quitting their jobs live streaming, and the anti-work sentiment is saying, hell yeah, you go, girl. We're finding places where we can vent about that. As a leader, you got to step your game up because this is actually free market capitalism. There is not as much of a demand for jobs where culture is crappy because people are saying, I won't stand for it, which means instead of saying that generation is entitled, if you want to get those people to work for you, you have to say, well, I guess we have

to pivot strategy and create an environment where they do want to show up because they have other options. Those other options are social services, living with their parents. The baby boomer generation is the wealthiest generation. They can and they are living with their parents. Drug addiction is another option. And people are taking that option. And then, you know, gig economy. It's not like a buzzy term anymore. but I have neighbors that are literally two doors over living in a house that I can also afford. They are 24 and 25 years old. The guy refurbishes chess sets and sells them on eBay and the girl makes lingerie and sells it on Etsy.

That's their job. They're not going to go work for Pepsi. They have no interest in working for Pepsi because they're in their little cabin doing fun art projects and making money with it and buying houses with it. So the world is changing. It's time to get on board, leaders. We have to do it's entitled as a leader to think that you don't have to change and people need to pay their dues. No, they don't.

Well, after that mic drop moment, thank you. I can't drop this mic, but I would. I have one last question. If you could clone one CEO and his or her methods and all the work that you've done for transforming to positive culture, who would it be and why? It would be Aaron Aime, who is the former CEO of UKG. I got to interview him on my podcast, Culture Leaders Daily. And he's one of these guys that comes from the heart and lets the results follow. And everyone I have spoken to talks about him like they're madly in love with him about, you know, he remembers names. He asks about families. I spoke to him for 45 minutes and I felt like I fell in love with him because of the way that he was. And I did also say, you know, Aaron, it just seems like it comes

easy to you. Like you're naturally this kind of servant leadership guy. I think it's harder for other people. I can speak from personal experience that it's certainly harder for me. I'm a naturally self-absorbed person. That's just like my personality. And I have to work really, really freaking hard to not act like it every day. And I fail a lot of days. And he's like, yeah, it probably is easier for me than most people. I had a great childhood, but I can also say that you can get better. And so air name, that's the guy. I'm just, I'm a, I'm a believer. Love it. All right. I know people listening are going to want to find and learn more about you and your work and probably hire you. So friends, JessicaKriegel.com is the website. She also has

a podcast, Culture Leaders Daily Podcast. It comes out every day, yes? Yep, every weekday. Oh my gosh, you're my hero. Once a week is hard for me. Anyway, Jessica, thank you for your time, your wisdom, your knowledge, and again, so many mic drop moments. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you, Nicole, for having me. This was a fun convo. I loved it. All right, let me close this out by reminding us all of this important point. Your culture isn't defined by words. It's defined by thoughts, actions, and the results that you get. So if your people don't give a shit, then I hate to break it to you, but your culture is probably shit too.

The good news is that people and leaders can change a culture. In fact, it's the only thing that ever does. And now more than ever, I believe people and cultures are craving leadership. They're craving a feeling of belonging and connectedness, of acceptance and growth, of challenge and celebration. And who better to give it to them than you? Lead in your homes, at work, in your community, and maybe even politically. God knows we need you there too. Lead, create, and build cultures that people want to be a part of. That is woman's work.