This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why Good Leaders Are Quitting (And We’re Letting It Happen) with Melissa Doman | 410

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Starting point is 00:00:37 Register today at fightforbrainhealth.ca. If you love the show, the best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks, and feels like to be doing women's work in the world today. And today's episode is a continuation of a conversation we started in episode 403 on leadership mental health, where we asked a question that I haven't really been able to shake.

Starting point is 00:01:23 And that's what happens if leadership becomes so hard, so heavy, so unsustainable, that the good ones just walk away. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, you might want to start there for context. Again, that's episode 403, because today we're going deeper. Now, if you've been here a while, you know this about me. I can be pretty hard on leaders because I expect a lot. But there's a flip side to that and frankly one that I'm worrying about more and more. And that's that we keep piling on. More expectations, more scrutiny, more responsibility for everyone else's experience with very little care for their own. We expect leaders to be everything, steady, selfless, decisive, emotionally intelligent, always on. And then we criticize, diagnose, and dissect them

Starting point is 00:02:14 the moment they fall short, or even the moment that we perceive they fall short. We have a lot of opinions about how leaders should support their teams, and we should. But we don't talk nearly enough about how teams, how all of us can support our leaders. Because if we don't figure that out, I stand by what I said before. We will lose all of the good ones, the ones, the ones who are who lead with intention, with empathy, with humanity, and what will be left with? Well, friend, I think we already have an idea of what that looks like and it's fucking terrifying. So today is about humanizing and supporting leaders. It's about naming the very real mental and emotional load that they carry, the patterns they fall into to cope and how we can begin to see and do things

Starting point is 00:03:02 differently on both sides of the leadership relationship. Back with us again is Melissa Domen, an organizational psychologist and workplace mental health expert, a former therapist, and the author of Cornered Office, why we need to talk about leadership mental health. She works with global organizations like Google, Microsoft, and Salesforce, helping leaders and teams have more honest, effective conversations about mental health and communication at work. Melissa, thank you for joining us again. And before I dive into my one million questions, can you remind us all what we're talking about here? Why is leadership mental health such an important topic? Not just for leaders, but for all of us. You know, I think about the workplace

Starting point is 00:03:47 as an ecosystem and we are all organisms in it and we're always trying to evolve, achieve homeostasis and leaders are a very critical part of that ecosystem. And if I'm being very plain and honest, I just don't see how an ecosystem can be maintained when a critical organism is consistently told they shouldn't need support in holding up the ecosystem. Like, I realize that might sound just so reductive, but that that's how simple it is. You know, you said at the beginning that you're very, very hard on leaders. Who better than to have this conversation with than someone who holds those high standards, but is also like, oh, wait a minute, to achieve.

Starting point is 00:04:32 these high standards, these people need support. So to me, you're the best person to have this conversation with, and you also make you really fun, which is about us. And I curse. And I use fuck as a comma. So we're a very good company with each other. You know what I'm saying? Yes. So I want to hone in on that, this concept of high standards, because I'm clearly a big believer, but high standards and perfection are not the same things. High standards and impossible standards are not the same thing. How do we differentiate in your experience? How do we know we're holding to high standards but not crossing the line to where nobody can ever measure up? Your timing for that question is impeccable because I literally just posted on LinkedIn today.

Starting point is 00:05:15 I was like, you know what a fun, easy takeaway is for Stress Awareness Month, which is, you know, when we're recording this episode in April, is hold your boundaries and respect other people's boundaries, just a thought. And within that, I talk about normalizing realistic capacity. And a lot of people like to pretend like capacity is limitless, which is just total utter bullshit. And there is a difference between having high standards and being accountable and meeting those things

Starting point is 00:05:52 versus being treated like and being expected to act as though you are a machine that is automated. And the fact that people expect us to work like a never-ending automated machine and like a Frito-Lay factory is just beyond. By the way, I chose that name on my own. There's no endorsement by Frito-Lay for this episode. But the thing is that there is so much information out there about what, quote, high expectations are. And by the way, I literally despise the term perfect because it's a social construct created by humans that does more harm than good.

Starting point is 00:06:34 Perfection is not a helpful term here, but people keep using it because that's a whole other podcast episode. Well, yeah. And I see it happen a lot in working with women. We think we're supposed to do it all, have it all, be it all look good while doing it and somehow make it all look effortless. And what I really have found is that it does the opposite of what we're intending it to do. We think that it will make our relationship stronger, that people will like us more, trust us more, value us more. And the reality is it creates a distance in our relationships because nobody can ever measure up. They know it. We know it.

Starting point is 00:07:10 And it just then it's all performance and nothing really meaningful ever happens. Yeah, it really does quite the opposite and creates a lot of stress. So my word for 2026 that I've become very, very curious about, and I think it does have a place in this conversation. Conversation, that's a new word. Conversation, not just for leaders, but also, you know, women in leadership and those who identify as female, is the term hypervigilance. People are hypervigilant for lots of reasons. Some people chase perfection as a form of hypervigilance. vigilance. And when we think about where that comes from, and I'm exploring this deeply,

Starting point is 00:07:56 not just on a professional level, but also a personal level, as someone who struggles with hypervigilant, like, scanning behaviors because I've been like the, you know, emotional caring type since I came on to this planet. I think that looking at the source, why do you feel this pressing need to be hypervigilant, whether it's how you achieve things, how fast, the way you come off to other people? I think it's not something that's explored a lot because typically speaking, talking about hypervigilent is just relegated within a trauma conversation. But I think it goes so far beyond that and can really also show up in leadership behaviors and how, they view themselves and also how they they hope others will view them. And hypervigilant behavior is not exactly a healthy coping mechanism. But as you talked about a few minutes ago, you know, there's lots of

Starting point is 00:08:58 reasons that leaders end up in different coping strategies. And I think feeling a sense of hypervigilance, unfortunately, drives part of that. And I'm stealing this directly from your book. But ultimately, what we're talking about is the dehumanization of leaders or not allowing them to have normal human experiences like capacity, like boundaries, anxiety or depression or stress or any, I mean, fill in all of the human experiences. We seem to think that they're not allowed to have those. I want to expand on this, but without going too deep into what we talked about in the last episode, where do we as other humans, whether that be employees or colleagues

Starting point is 00:09:46 or additional members of a leadership team, where do we have a role to play in supporting our leaders' mental health? I want to start with the term mental health because I think even there in the same sentence, what's our role in where do we start with supporting the mental health of leaders can scare the shit out of some people?

Starting point is 00:10:07 And while I have opinions about that, it doesn't make it any less true. So I would even just take it down a notch and I would say, what's our role as, you know, fellow leaders or team members in just supporting leaders when they're having a tough day or when they're going through a lot of stress or when they're stretched too thin? Because why the hell not? Everybody in a workplace is a chronologically aged adult. I say chronologically age, not mentally age, because those are often not the same. I just don't see why people can't attempt to just show basic care and humanity when they see another fucking human being in front of them who has more on their shoulders, who's responsible for more, and just ask how they're doing or if there's something that they can do to help.

Starting point is 00:11:02 Now, the relationship there may determine whether or not that even happens, because if a leader makes a team feel not psychologically safe, they're very emotionally distant or avoidant or they tend to act out, you know, in a position of power when they're stressed, that's not going to make anybody want to show up for them. But let's say that's not the case. And let's say that it just seems like they're constantly stressed and drowning, proverbially speaking. I think it's ridiculous that fellow leaders or the people that report into them can't just have the responsibility to say, like, you seem stretched really thin. Is there anything I can do to help? Or, you know, do you want to have like a virtual cup of coffee to blow off steam for a while? There's no rule precluding us from doing that. But I understand that the company culture, the team culture, how the leader acts, all of these things determine if people feel they can do it. if they want to do it, if they feel it's, you know, they're accountable to do it. And it's not lost on me. But for God's sakes, just show, just because they're your boss doesn't mean that they don't need someone to be like, hey, you good?

Starting point is 00:12:17 And I'm not trying to sound so simplistic, but sometimes that's all it is. Well, it's interesting. This has popped up a lot for me in recent conversations. I'm curious your thoughts on it. This idea of what if you're not? you just gave somebody the benefit of the doubt. Oh, so much easier said than done. And yes. Especially when it comes to leadership. I mean, listen, everywhere we look, we can see examples

Starting point is 00:12:40 of bad leadership. Like, don't even get me started on politics. I understand the hypervigilance of scanning and looking for bad leadership and being able to find it all over the place. And I've found in conversations with people, I'm sure I do it myself too, this, we're bringing baggage from previous leadership relationships or whatever, and we're bringing into the new one and somehow I'm expecting that to go well. And I just am like, time out. Like, where has this person made you believe all the shit you just made up?

Starting point is 00:13:18 Or isn't that your responsibility if you feel that way because of X, Y, and Z that had nothing to do with this situation or this interaction? and this invitation of like, what if you just gave them the benefit of the doubt? Because that is very scary and people don't like doing that. I hope and assume you watch the show shrinking. Oh, no.

Starting point is 00:13:40 It's the best. It is. I have cried so much watching that show. I just don't know how they're, like, every episode, I'm like, that's my favorite character. And then every episode is a new favorite character. I'm on Gabby right now, obsessed with her.

Starting point is 00:13:56 Like just that show. Right. Oh, yeah. Can they lead our country? Oh, my God. I will vote for Harrison Ford like now. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:14:06 He's sexy to any age, by the way. Yeah. So I can say this line without giving away anything from an episode where someone says, what a privilege to be the age of 42 and to be covered with scars of experience. we don't tend to look at it that way because we try to avoid getting more scars, where we use our scars to protect us because going into something braced, even though it participates in creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, creates a perception that it'll hurt us less than if we're not ready for it. So being self-protective, while not super healthy, can lessen the impact on us than being trusting. that's at work, outside of work, you know, this is not new information, this is not my idea. I think it was in chapter one or two where I talk about like the mental representations that we create of leaders.

Starting point is 00:15:06 And I was citing like sociological theory, psychological theory, where we had these like ideas we set up in our heads of how leaders should be, how they should act, what we need from them. And then we layer on top of that all the stories and narratives of the ones that we've actually encountered. Of course we bring this baggage into future relationships because it's so much easier to say, I don't trust you till you prove I can, but you make it hard for that to happen, versus I will lead with trust and open myself up to this person who's totally different sitting right in front of me. Which, by the way, I've even done that myself. Where I left, I was done with a contract at a job with a manager who, like, live to sabotage me and they were awful.

Starting point is 00:15:55 And then I went to the next gig and I was very clearly shaken by that experience and very paranoid. And my new boss was like, why are you concerned about this? Like where is coming from? And I explained it to her. And she was like, I'm really sorry that happened, but that's not how I do things. And I was like, oh shit, I need to get a hold of my own stuff because they're not the same people.

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Starting point is 00:16:57 Find the past and the curious at all the usual podcast places. Well, I'll also add that, you know, we do have this idea of what a leader is supposed to look like, and that is reinforced in a lot of ways. If we look at all the leadership content that is out there, they read mostly like how to, right? And it very rarely talks about like a user guide. Yeah. For a machine. Right. Exactly. And if you do this this way, then it all work and everyone will love you and you'll get amazing results. And it doesn't really talk very much about the dark side, the costs, the struggles, the challenges, the feeling like you're being punched on the left. And just when you're about to turn that way, you get punched from the right. And that, you know, similar, like I had an experience where somebody once said to me something along the lines of like, this isn't very servant leader of you. And I said, said, you know, I appreciate the feedback. But the miscommunication here is that you think I'm trying to be a servant leader. That is not a leadership theory I personally subscribe to. There's these things that are out there reinforcing and supporting this sort of ideal leader. I don't know if

Starting point is 00:18:09 it's serving anyone, but most especially leaders. Thoughts. No offense to Robert Greenleaf. Love you. I know when you wrote this book in 1970 that you met well. And a little missed opportunity for maybe some firmer boundaries around that because people took it and ran with it to their own detriment. And again, like, there are pluses and minuses to every model. But I think that that one in particular, if there's no boundaries around it, is a very slippery slope. Well, especially as a woman in leadership, I found it was like, I don't know if double bind is the right terminology. whatever, but I just was like, I can't align with it. It goes way too far. And the minute I put that out there, I worry about all the things I'm already worried about being double down on.

Starting point is 00:19:05 Well, also, what that person said to you was very manipulative. Sure. Big, big disclaimer. It would totally depend who I was talking to. But I'm the type of person who would be like, oh, interesting. Is it because I don't have a penis that you said that? But then, you know, you can't say that at work. Yeah. No, I went the route of how interesting that you thought that was something I aspired to. That's not the model or method of leadership that I align with or something along those lines. I might even be like, oh, what an unhelpful way to deliver that feedback?

Starting point is 00:19:43 What made you choose those words? And I'm sure our listeners can relate how after the fact you think, I think 700 different things you could have said or should have said or, you know, like the words don't come in the moment as well as they do after the fact. But yeah, I've replayed that one a few times in my own mind. I want to talk a little bit about some of these leadership mental health archetypes that you go into in the book. Yeah. I'll just list them out. I know we won't have time to talk about all of them.

Starting point is 00:20:12 But there's the ostrich, the grain mill, the insecurity masker, the mother hen or father goose, the frustration. the frustrated martyr, the porcupine, and the healthy one, which is the sea otter. I personally think I can relate to, and I'm sure a lot of women listening in, the frustrated martyr, any thoughts on that or any of the other archetypes that we should be mindful of? You know, I came up with these archetypes based on all the leaders that I've met and spoken to and, you know, taught throughout my career. And I make it very clear to people that they may see themselves in multiple archetypes, which is fine, or they may even feel inspired to, you know, create something new that works for them. But that's also fine because all that matters is creating an awareness of why the behaviors exist, the positives potentially of those, but also how it's screwing you from managing your own mental health and capacity.

Starting point is 00:21:15 as a leader and how it may also be affecting the people you lead, how they do or don't show up for you. So the thing is that I would just be very honest with yourself, even if it's uncomfortable, of if you help people to your own detriment, if you help people but then hold it over their heads. If you keep people at a distance because, you know, why would I talk about that? And then you're like, why am I in the hospital for three months of leave? Because I broke down. So I think for me, the takeaway is regardless of the type, just be very, very honest with yourself about which one you identify with. Because it's not a bad thing if you do. It's a good thing because then you're like, oh, okay, now that I know this, how can I try to address and create, you know, little modicum of behavior change to try to change the outcome? Let's talk a little bit about the sea otter. That is the healthy goal. Tell us about that.

Starting point is 00:22:17 So what I love about that one is that, and it really is based on a lot of their behavior, where they are these like kind, caring, nurturing creatures. But when they feel threatened or someone they're protective of feels threatened, they will not hesitate to show that. that and be clear about it. And so for that, obviously, I'm not condoning like physical violence in the workplace. But the message to take from that is that, you know, connecting, giving, receiving care is a healthy practice. And if boundaries are crossed or there's a teachable moment, you know, don't shy away from it. You know, be honest about your needs, be open to other people about their needs. But I know several leaders out there who are doing the sea otter life and I see it.

Starting point is 00:23:18 Yeah. Fair really recently, I think we had two really great examples of it with the NCAA women's basketball tournaments, the interviews with the coaches after the fact where I was like sobbing and just so moved and motivated by a clear expression of caring about the humans. And the team and, yes, winning, but not winning at all costs. Yes. And I mean, obviously these are two final teams. They were the best, the most productive, the winningest, right? But they didn't get there by only caring about that.

Starting point is 00:24:01 And they didn't get there in spite of the people. And even the way they talked about each other, it was really just the UCLA coach. talked about being a place where uncommon women made uncommon choices to create an uncommon result. So cool. Anyway, I was actually going to share an example as well, if that's okay. Just a brief one. So my husband works in the tech industry and the CEO of his company. And this is, I think they have something like 130 people, maybe larger. This is a multi, multi, multi, multi million dollar, well-known technology company. And he's been there about five-ish years, I think.

Starting point is 00:24:46 The CEO is really incredible. And I've always had a lot of respect for him, not just with how he builds the culture in his company and his morals and ethics and how he conducts himself as a leader. But he is very open and posts on LinkedIn with these beautifully written articles. And he just published one a few weeks ago,

Starting point is 00:25:08 about his how his relationship with his anxiety and how he's realized that it how it impacts you know how he delegates or how he interacts with people at the company and how in certain ways it helps motivate you know him and everybody very constructively to get things done in really incredible ways but he also is like I'm also aware that sometimes I'm I'm manufacturing, you know, urgency or pushing things too fast or it's me not realizing I need to deal with these feelings and I'm putting it towards other people. And I read it and I was like, oh my God, like just so, so self-aware and not apologizing for having anxiety, but just being aware of the function it plays how it impacts him and impacts other people. And I was like,

Starting point is 00:26:03 this is how to do it, guys. Like this is, he shows what an incredible leader, he is and how success and struggle exist in the same body. And it doesn't stop him from being an incredible leader and chosen being responsible and taking accountability in those moments when anxiety is playing a function that's not so helpful. Well, and just that reminder of how inspiring and how connecting and how motivating good leadership really can be. I think sometimes we forget about that in today's day and age. I do think it's important that we, acknowledge that leadership is changing and evolving just like everything else. But at a pretty rapid speed lately, just like everything else, you know, even the idea of what a leader is supposed

Starting point is 00:26:48 to look like, as you mentioned, I think it was 1970s. It was the servant leader. And, you know, now it's, I don't know what it is. But you mentioned recently the global leadership forecast. What do we want to know, need to know about leadership today and as we move forward? Well, folks, the leadership forecast is overcast of stress with a chance of burnout rain. The report, fresh off the press in 2025, was like, and this apparently was like the largest, longest global study of its kind. It's like a very, it's available online to download as a PDF. 70% of leaders globally are so stressed they're going to crack of those 70%. 40% don't want to be leaders anymore because of the current climate and what's expected

Starting point is 00:27:46 of them and what's on their shoulders. I'm like, yeah, no shit guys. Like I wouldn't want the gig either. So I was so relieved to see this report come out because it is just untenable. And it's only going to get worse. And so I read it and I was just like nodding along and I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, more of this, yes, yes. And, you know, with all the stuff going on, you know, layoffs happening in inhumane ways, you know, people getting screenshotsed and put online for saying the most terrible things. I'm like, this is not a great time to get humanized as a leader because there's so many leaders doing bad things that people don't have any incentive.

Starting point is 00:28:39 And it's not going to stop me. It's not going to stop me. I'm not going to let the good ones get to take care. out with the bad. Agreed. And I'm like, okay, we have to figure that part out. We have to. We have to. And it seems incredibly daunting because the bad ones are so bad and so public and so powerful. Uh-huh. That it is really hard to not make assumptions about the leaders that we're not seeing on the day to day that may not be as successful or as powerful. extremely hard.

Starting point is 00:29:14 And what I think is happening is a lot of those, I'm just going to call them good leaders that we're not seeing or hearing a lot about, is they're not getting the upside, but they are getting the downside of the results or the, I don't know what the word is, but of all the crap leaders that we're seeing. And it wouldn't surprise me

Starting point is 00:29:37 if those weren't the 40% that are thinking about leaving and we need them. so desperately. Like, I'm so afraid for politics because I can't wrap my head around how a good human would want to do that because of what we've turned it into because of what it is. And not a perfect human, a good human. So I think what I'm trying to ask is how do we, how do we encourage the good ones and how do we take the bad ones to task? I don't know if you're going to like my answer, but I'll be honest with you. the good ones, the place to start is acknowledging that they're getting the shit end of the

Starting point is 00:30:19 stick. I think that there is no conversation happening, not that I found, around taking the good leaders aside and acknowledging how hard that impression management is as a good leader because they actually care about it and it's much harder for them than for the bad leaders who couldn't give a shit. So I think acknowledging the struggle first and not to sound too crunchy, but actually feeling seen for that is something that a lot of leaders, overwhelming majority, won't have said to them. So I think that that's the first piece is acknowledging the struggle. I think also there's another opportunity for, again, that narrative shifting within organizations about the importance of, about our last conversation,

Starting point is 00:31:16 about the differences between call-out culture and cancel culture. Because good leaders get tossed in to cancel culture when they shouldn't. So this is basically, it's almost having like a reparenting conversation with everybody and being like, stop getting mad at the king and queen of the jungle gym when you have someone else offering to share you a toy right in front of you. Like that's like the best way I can describe it. I think that the good leaders need to be acknowledged that they're onto the microscope even more and they're not being appreciated.

Starting point is 00:31:50 And also to have a larger narrative conversation about celebrating the good wins of good leadership when they happen. Because typically speaking, and this should happen, leaders are, you know, doing the shoutouts for their team members. Absolutely. keep doing that. And when you have leaders who are doing good, why the hell aren't people giving them a shout out? They need a good job too. These are small things that can be done every day. And it may motivate them not to jump ship if they're starting to feel a modicum of appreciation for not being

Starting point is 00:32:29 an asshole. Just a thought. Yeah. Or for caring and doing their best. I mean, that's ultimately what I think the vast majority of people of leaders really are doing. They are caring and they are doing their best. The problem is some of the biggest leaders are not and it's just, yeah, infuriating. Okay, Melissa, I could talk to you all day. I want to remind people to go get the book, cornered office, available wherever you buy books, but let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can visit Melissa's website and melissa doman.com. We're going to put those links as well all the other ways to find and follow Melissa in show notes. Melissa, thank you for doing this important work.

Starting point is 00:33:08 Thank you for standing up for leaders and their humanity. And thank you for being here today. Thank you so much. It was great to be back. All right, friends, we say we want better leaders. Hell, I'd argue that we're desperate for them. But we need to acknowledge the paradox. Yes, leadership is both a privilege and a responsibility.

Starting point is 00:33:28 We should hold leaders accountable. We should expect growth and demand better. And also, leaders are human, which means we should also support them. We need to communicate, take responsibility for how we show up, too. Because leadership doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a relationship. And we all help create, shape, and contribute to those. And if we keep expecting leaders to carry everything, be everything, and never crack, we won't

Starting point is 00:33:55 end up with better leaders. We'll burn through and burn out the good ones. Because the quality of our leadership is never just about them. It's a reflection of us. Want better leaders? Yeah, same. So we get to be better to and how we communicate and show up

Starting point is 00:34:11 and giving people the benefit of the doubt and in how we support each other. Because all of that, leading, supporting, growing together, well, that is woman's work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why Good Leaders Are Quitting (And We’re Letting It Happen) with Melissa Doman | 410

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