This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why RomComs Heal Our Hearts with Lauren Layne | 256

Starting point is 00:00:00 I am Nicole Kalil, and if you're a member of my community, you already know that I love me a good book. I have a little library in our house where I would gladly spend all my days if I could just get paid to read and also if somebody could just bring me snacks all the time. And I'm a physical book kind of reader. No Kindles or audio books for me. No, I prefer to hold my books and even stranger to smell them. I read more than 50 books a year, which has most people asking the question, where do you find the time? And my answer is that it's something that I love to do. So it isn't all

Starting point is 00:00:46 that hard. Like for some people, they love working out. So it's something they do most days. And since I hate it, I have to force myself to make the time, but not the case with reading. And while reading does make me better and smarter, it's not at all why I do it. For me, it's an escape, a retreat, and it fills me up. My go-to books are usually novels, especially historical novels, and mysteries, especially murder mysteries, because apparently I have a dark side. I fit in the occasional leadership or self-development book, but that's like every fifth to eighth book that I read. And one category that I love, but I often don't tell people about is rom-coms, mostly because it feels a little off brand for me, right? I'm not a big

Starting point is 00:01:32 romantic and you know, I want nothing to do with women being saved or any messaging that having some man come along and choose you somehow suddenly makes you whole or complete or valuable. And don't even get me started on how so many authors write women in their books. You'd think I'd be more likely to ban romance novels than read them, right? But there is this one category that I just love, and it's my go-to choice when I'm having a tough time or I just need a little lightness in my life, and that is those rom-coms, very specifically romantic comedy novels that write clever women who bring far more to the table than just how they look, and also make me laugh so hard that my family or even strangers on a plane think I've

Starting point is 00:02:16 officially lost all the marbles as I cackle until tears leak out of my eyes. So friend, on this episode of This Is Woman's Work, we're going to talk rom-coms with one of the best. Lauren Lane is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of more than three dozen romantic comedies, including Made in Manhattan, To Serve with Love, and her latest novel, Miranda in Retrograde, which I was lucky enough to get an advanced copy of and read it in one day. I devoured it more than I read it. Her books have sold over a million copies worldwide, and she's here today to talk to us about why rom-coms speak to our souls and help heal our hearts. So Lauren, thank you for being our guest and for writing this book that I love. And let me kick off by asking you why you think rom-coms heal our hearts.

Starting point is 00:03:07 Oh, man. So I'm the opposite of you. As I was listening to your whole intro, since my earliest reading days, and I've been an avid reader since I was a kid, romance, that's always called to me. Even Sweet Valley High. So it was kind of like me. Oh, my God. I read all the Sweet Valley Highs. I totally did. Oh man. I'm sure like my parents weren't like thrilled. So like I'd go to the library and they'd be like, here's the classics. And then I'm like, okay, but here's my pile. And it was always even reading those. It was always like the Ted Elizabeth story, you know, it was the romance. It's always called to me. And then like the more I got into my teens,

Starting point is 00:03:42 twenties, like it just increasingly called called me to finally write one. So in terms of why, though, I think it's, I mean, this is a little, this is a groundbreaking bit of news for anyone, but there's so much negativity already in the world. Like there's already like every time I look at the news, every time you talk to someone, there's always something going wrong. There's something that's just meh. Even like, I feel like a lot of the stuff that we really see trending on Netflix and all the streaming services, it's, you know, it's true crime. And like, you know, these really gritty sort of, for lack of a better word, depressing dark things. And I do, I do

Starting point is 00:04:13 occasionally, like I love, I love dark and twisty stuff. I love mysteries as well. But I'm like, gosh, where do you go if you just want a little, a little pick me up? And maybe that just sounds really shallow, but it, it really just writing it and reading it. I think it gives, it gives women just this little tiny place to escape to where, especially at least the way that I like to write them, like life is just a little bit better. Like, yes, it's a little bit of a fantasy, but I think sometimes we need that reminder to just be like, yes, there is beauty in the world. There is love in the world. Like, you know, like happily ever after, I know it was a cliche for it. So I'm like like there are happy endings and people, you know, fall in love forever and ever and ever and have these beautiful, beautiful endings and futures. So yeah, I think it's just, it really is as simple

Starting point is 00:04:54 as, as, as adding a little happiness to the world. Like that sounds so trite now as I say it out loud. No, but it's so true because that's exactly when I want to read them. And when it impacts me the most is, as I said, when I'm kind of going through a dark or challenging time, I'm really struggling with something. A lot of people give the advice to read more self-development books, but that is not at all what I want in those moments. I want a rom-com. I want something that's going to make me giggle. I want something that's going to make me feel good. I want hope. I want beauty. I want that happy ending, maybe for no other reason to remind me that a happy ending is an available option. Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, I mean, just especially

Starting point is 00:05:39 with the past few years, everything going on, sometimes I think we can forget that. It seems like a lot of the stuff coming in, every time we check the news, it's like, oh, well, that's another terrible thing. So yeah, just having that little nugget of goodness is something that I try to throw out into the world. So I'm curious when you're writing a rom-com, what are the must-have ingredients or the things that you think are essential when you're writing a book like this that will attract the reader and give them this experience that we're talking about? So for me, it comes down to two things. And this is, I mean, part of it's sort of a hallmark, I think, of the genre, but then also just kind of like my own personal reading preferences. I am

Starting point is 00:06:21 all about the witty banner. So from the very, like as much as possible on the first page, and sometimes it's hard in that intro chapter, because you're trying to introduce characters, but yeah, having that kind of like snappy, again, better than real life dialogue, I think is essential. But then the other thing that I like, and this one's a, it's harder to see maybe, I think, unless you're specifically like used to writing it, but like, I love to put in a little bit of longing. And I use that word a lot in terms of what's important to me in writing, because it's creating that little tug that the characters have for each other, even if they don't quite recognize it. And then that creates a corresponding tug in the reader of like, okay, I'm feeling something. I want these two people to get together. And it is, it's like, you want something that's not yet happening. And so

Starting point is 00:07:02 that's what keeps the pages turning. So I always say, like whenever aspiring writers ask like, oh, you know, like, why is my book not working? And I'm like, guaranteed, it probably doesn't have enough conflict. You know, like, we think we want these people to get together because we do. But the key is doing it like at the very, very end. So like, so we create that kind of like, oh, like, I can't wait. And if you feel it in your stomach, I don't know how else to describe it, really. But like, when it's done well, and I always try to do it well, you feel the tug,

Starting point is 00:07:28 the longing. Your most recent book definitely has both. And I love the better than real life dialogue because I think that I'm like, why don't I talk like this in my regular life? And why don't I surround myself with people who have this witty banter all the time. I looked at your website and you talk about the different tropes that exist in rom-coms. And it's funny, as I was reading them, I was like, yeah, okay, this makes so much sense. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your thoughts on things like fake relationship turns real or falling in love with your best friend or my personal favorite, grumpy sunshine, where the positive and upbeat person meets the introverted grumpy one, which of course speaks to my soul. Tell us a little bit about these tropes and why

Starting point is 00:08:18 you think they speak to us. So first I'll say I'm actually a little embarrassed to have to even admit this, but I, for the longest time, I've been writing for over a decade now. And I didn't really know that grumpy sunshine was even a thing until probably like the past few months. And I was like, oh, like I always thought we called it like enemies to lovers or opposites attract. And then the second I heard the name, I'm like, yes, like that is what I'm attracted

Starting point is 00:08:41 to is the grumpy sunshine. So I've been writing it for years and I didn't even realize. And even this one, Miranda and Retrograde, I actually didn't realize it was grumpy sunshine as I was writing it until the publisher after the fact came up with, you know, like the blurb and the marketing company. They're like, oh, a grumpy sunshine romance. And I was like, I had no idea I wrote one of those. But sure enough, this is grumpy sunshine. But in terms of tropes, you know, they get kind of a bad rap, especially for people that don't,

Starting point is 00:09:06 in general, read romance or like romance. But I actually think they're kind of key to why we keep coming back because it's that familiarity. It's the same thing we talked about in terms of you want that lightness, you want to feel good, you want that little bit of better than real life fantasy. And everybody has their preference. So like, I love knowing, sometimes I am very much in the mood for one of those friends to lovers. Like I just, I want that type of story. So I actually kind of love the trend that we're seeing in the rom-com world and romance in general, which is really advertising those tropes. And if we go back, when I first started writing, it was the opposite. Like we didn't use tropes,

Starting point is 00:09:42 was a dirty word. We weren't supposed to say that. I think we were supposed to market our romance or romantic comedies as being this very unique thing. And they're not necessarily. And I think that's actually, it's a good thing. It's the reason people love the Hallmark Christmas movies. They're all pretty much exactly the same, but that's, and that's what people get criticized. I'm like, that's what they want. That's what people are looking for. They want that comfort. So yeah, I'm a big fan of the tropes. And in terms of the ones that you mentioned, especially, my favorite tropes, and it sounds a bit like a cheat, and maybe it is, but I love the ones that require sort of forced proximity.

Starting point is 00:10:18 So like anytime there's that fake relationship, like you said, those are probably, I wouldn't say they're the easiest to write necessarily, but when you have these people, if they're pretending to be in a relationship, that means they have to be on the page together. And that is, I will tell you the hardest thing about a romantic comedy, especially most of mine are set in New York and Manhattan, which is millions of people, like what are the chances they're going to bump into each other? Nothing. But if they have to pretend to be in a relationship or in this case, I do neighbors a lot too, just because neighbors makes it easy, like I said, for them to be on the page together and to have that witty banner. So yeah, tropes on one hand, like I said, they're comforting, but I also love them just from sort of the way that it allows us to tell these love stories

Starting point is 00:10:58 sort of within the framework of these familiar ideas. And I don't know if they feel real to me or if I want them to feel real, but the reality is most of us do meet the people we spend our lives with or that we fall in love with even, yes, romantically, but even outside of that through proximity, right? Like living close by or working together or being put into a situation together or being in weddings together. I mean, there's just so many things. Now, you know, I don't personally know anybody who's had to fake a relationship and then ended up falling in love. But I tell you what, I love the story every time. Me too. One of the things that you did so well in Miranda and Retrograde that I really loved and appreciated was writing women. I said this in the intro.

Starting point is 00:11:50 I just sometimes hate how people write women, even in mysteries where it's like so focused. Like, I don't really care how this person looks. It's not necessary to the story, but there's so much focus on it. When you write your characters, maybe specifically women, are there any, I don't know if rules is the right word or anything that's really important to you to make these women stand out or make them be different and yet appealing? You know, it's so interesting actually you brought that up about the physical appearance, because that's one thing I think that's changed a little bit since my early days. And this is just, you know, when you're first starting out as a writer, it's pretty common to think of, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:31 like a celebrity that you have in mind, like your inspiration for this character. And I did probably do that early on. I think I had Jennifer Aniston. I don't remember who was like, oh, that's my character is Rachel from Friends. But actually, the more that I've kind of gotten into this career, the more I write, it's actually pretty important to me to not have a really clear vision of what they look like. And a lot of times, I think I've written a couple of books where I won't even put it in, or there's been times where actually my editor's like, okay, no, you have to say what color hair she has or how tall she is because people need some sort of visual. And I'm like, I want them

Starting point is 00:13:01 to create their own visual. And also, that's what, what's important here. So I think like it always, this sounds very vague, but I always kind of start with an essence of character. If that makes sense. It's sort of like, I, I, when I'm writing down my like little character worksheet, which sometimes I do, and sometimes I just wing it and it's, she gets a little bit inconsistent and I have to fix her later, but I don't even, I don't go with the hair color or, you know, in terms of what they look like, It's like, okay, who is this person really? And I also really always start with the change because that's the thing that I think people don't realize they want that in a character. But you, she needs to be different at the end of the

Starting point is 00:13:36 story, from the start of the story. And in order to figure that out, you have to know who she is so that you can figure out where she's going. So that's, I mean, I don't, I don't know that that answers the question if I'm just rambling here, but it, it is, she's going. So that's, I mean, I don't know that that answers the question if I'm just rambling here, but it's a matter of taking out, I think, the physical part altogether. Not that they can't have physical chemistry because that obviously is essential.

Starting point is 00:13:55 They have to find each other attractive if you're telling a romance. But yeah, really just getting rid of that altogether and saying, okay, who is she? And how is she going to change on the page? And once I figure that out, that's when they really like unlock for me. And that's why I can, I feel like I can bring them to life a little bit easier. Yeah. I feel like the two characters in this book,

Starting point is 00:14:16 there was obviously a physical chemistry, but it felt more like a connection. Like they were more attracted to who each other were as opposed to how they looked. I also loved that you went with Miranda being this very smart, intellectual, factual, logical person who then went on a somewhat forced exploration of something totally different because of a, and I put in air quotes, failure in her professional life that felt really real. So I'm curious when romantic comedies get turned into films or shows, how does that work for the author? Is that exciting? Are you involved? Are you not? Do they destroy your book? I'm curious about that.

Starting point is 00:15:06 Yeah. So I wish I had more concrete information. But so my experience very much has been there. I don't want to say we get a ton of interest in all my books, but my agent is always shopping all my books all the time to film editors and producers. And usually what happens is we will get interest, some of them by multiple producers. And it's just, you know, there's so many moving parts that I do not envy, say Hollywood, because I don't know the right term, Hollywood as a catch-all for that world. But yeah, usually what happens is they show interest in it, they get a shopping agreement, and then the tricky part is they have to go take it around and they have to find a writer.

Starting point is 00:15:44 And ideally, they would also get a cast member, like a star power name associated with it. So then when they go to the Netflix's or the Amazon primes of the world, or, you know, the big studios, but you know, they need to have all these places or all these pieces in place so that they can really move forward. But in terms of how it is on is on my end, it really depends. So I've sat across from some producers on Zooms, where they basically have told you all the ways that they're going to change your story. And then they say, basically, and it is a conversation where they're like, are you okay if we pitch it in this direction? Sometimes I am because it does make sense for the adaptation. Other times I'm like, nope, you're changing. You're changing the core of the story. But at least with Miranda, and again, like nothing, definitely nothing final to say, like fingers are always crossed that we do get something. But actually where the interest has been in Miranda

Starting point is 00:16:34 is as a TV show. And the idea of starting each episode with a horoscope, which I just, I think is such an interesting idea, but that was a long conversation in terms of how would we take a relatively short book, because my novels in general tend to be on the shorter side, how do we take a short book and try to turn it into a series? And you would have to obviously introduce other characters and other plot threads. So that's a very convoluted way of saying I don't really know, but that's been my experience. What about rom-coms for men? And let me say it another way. My understanding is that most romantic comedies are written by women and read by women, and probably one of the few genres that falls into that category. Whereas business books are almost always on the opposite end.

Starting point is 00:17:25 I think the last stat I read was something around 80% of business books are being written by men. And I don't know if they would say that they're writing them specifically for men, but I don't think they're, you know, spending a lot of energy trying to think about it from the feminine lens or anything like that. So my question is, do men read rom-coms? And if not, why should they? So my experience is that they don't. And I will throw in a really big exception though. My husband and I actually co-wrote one together. I love that. So yeah,

Starting point is 00:17:58 he, and I was like, okay, you have to at least read a couple. And he's read all of mine. So he has kind of an understanding of the genre a little bit, but you could see the shock sort of on everybody's face, men and women, when we, you know, we tell people to snooze, I'm like, Oh, what's new with you? And they're like, Oh, we wrote, you know, this book, Emergency Contact. And they're like, both of you. And I'm like, and it's a romance. And it is, you know, it is very much a romantic comedy. And I would say he's a comedian. So that one in particular leans into the comedy side. But you its core, it still does have that romantic arc. And it's another queer woman, definitely. So that was even kind of, I think, more fun. That's a tangent. But that was even more fun to dive into. But in terms of why should they, that's actually a bit of a pet peeve of mine. And I'm sure most

Starting point is 00:18:38 romance authors and readers would share this gripe. So much of the criticism we get from the fluffy, and I'm putting fluffy in air quotes here of the criticism we get from this, the fluffy, and I'm putting fluffy in air quotes here, the criticism we get comes from men. And yet if you talk to them like, well, have you ever read one? They haven't. So it's just like this knee-jerk reaction they have of bashing this thing that they've never even given a chance. And I'm not quite sure where that comes from, or maybe I do, and maybe it's a patriarch and all of those things. But in terms of why they should, it really is. I mean, I think men as much as women can use that same escape that we talked about earlier and that reminder that, oh, things can be nicer and more pleasant than sometimes we remember. And reading those books, I think can nudge the men in the

Starting point is 00:19:22 right direction as well. Agreed. I would reiterate the escapism part of it. I mean, I watch romantic comedies with my husband and some of them he doesn't like as much as I do, but for the most part, I think we're on the same page, especially when they're funny. If people are listening who have maybe always wanted to write their own book or have an idea, any advice for the writers or potential writers listening in about how to write a book? Yeah. I mean, oh gosh, it could go on forever. The first thing I would say, especially if you're looking at romance or romantic comedy, and I touched on this before, is make sure that it has conflict. Because a lot of what I see aspiring writers is they think they have a great idea and it is great, but they actually just have the premise. It's how these two people meet, or it's maybe how the story

Starting point is 00:20:13 ends, or kind of like how there's that forced proximity element. They have that part figured out, but what you always need, and I didn't realize this for the longest time until I kept trying to write, I'm like, why is this so hard? You have to have something keeping them apart. And that's so counterintuitive when we're thinking about romance, because it is about two people falling in love. But in order to write a book that's interesting, that people turn pages, you have to know why they can't be together right now. So that's the number one thing I always suggest is because like I said, it is counterintuitive. Yeah, figure out how they fall in love, but figure out why they can't fall in love until the very last chapter. So that's, that's kind of my starting point. And then the other thing, you know, this is, this is a

Starting point is 00:20:51 toss around a lot in terms of writing advice, but it's right. What you want to see on the shelf. And that's really how I started when I'm like, okay, I want to write a book. It was, it came down to, okay, what, what sort of book do I love to read? And I love a Mr. Darcy type hero. So that probably comes to that grumpy sunshine thing again. Like I love myself and Mr. Darcy type of hero. So I'm like, well, that's what I'm going to, I'm going to write. And then also at the time, this was many years ago, uh, there weren't a lot of sort of like city romances. It was a lot of small town. Um, that was popular at times. I'm like, okay, like I can't find a Mr. Darcy hero set in a city. So I'll, I'll start there. And that was popular at the time. So I'm like, okay, like I can't find a Mr. Darcy hero set in a city. So I'll start there. And that was really kind of trusting my own reading instincts,

Starting point is 00:21:30 I think has led me to be a better writer. Great advice. My last question is what rom-com books are you reading? And do you like even reading books in your same genre or, you know, like they always talk about the electrician who doesn't work on their own house because it's, you know, you do that all day long. So my question is, do you read it? And if so, who are some of your favorites? Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that. I have not been reading a lot, I think, in the past few years.

Starting point is 00:21:59 And when I first started my career, absolutely. I still had all of my favorite authors. And I still do. I still buy their books to support them, but it's sort of twofold. One, I don't like to read anyone who's what we call writing voice, someone who has the same style as me. I try to stay away from those as much as possible, especially as I'm gearing up for a new project, because I notice pulling little elements of their style into my own. So sometimes it is just like, no, I need to keep, you know, my style, my voice pure. And I don't want to copy anyone even unintentionally. And then also I, you know, I don't know if it's, I don't want to say that

Starting point is 00:22:34 there's so many of them feel the same to me now, but I I'm always on the lookout for one that feels really fresh. So that's kind of like, I'm, I'm starting to get increasingly picky and there's one it's Emma of 83rd street. Um, and gosh, I'm starting to get increasingly picky. And there's one, it's Emma of 83rd Street. And gosh, I'm totally forgetting the two authors' names. They're lovely. But that was one. And it was an Emma retelling, which you think, well, that's not that fresh if it's a retelling. But something about it just, it felt like you hadn't read it before. It felt like almost like clueless. I don't know if you've watched that. There's something about clueless that felt so fresh that had sort of that same idea, except for a different age group. So yeah, the short version is no, I don't really read them that much. And I wish that I did. But increasingly, it's just, it feels like I need to,

Starting point is 00:23:13 yeah, the electrician example, I had never thought of that. But that's perfect. That's exactly sort of, I think, what I'm experiencing lately. Yeah, completely makes sense. This is not a question, but just one of my favorite parts of your book and how I knew I was gonna love it because it's like, I don't know, in the first several pages, but you talked about comfort cheese. Making your way through a variety of cheese types can help speed up the stages of grief,

Starting point is 00:23:36 is what it says. And you literally spoke to my heart because cheese is my love language and comfort cheese should very much be a hashtag and a thing and something we all rally around. So thank you for giving me the phrase of comfort cheese. Oh, I love it. That's when I never like, you know, it's kind of sometimes I kind of know ahead of time what I'm going to write.

Starting point is 00:23:56 And that one I just because I'm a big cheese fan myself. That one I just found myself. I'm like, oh, this is a great idea. I've got to put this in here. So yeah, comfort cheese. I think we should make it a thing. It'll be our mission. We should build a business around it.

Starting point is 00:24:08 I mean, come on. Lauren, thank you so much. I need to tell people to go to laurenlane.com. You can find all of her many, many books, plus the information about the tropes, which I found really interesting, and then some books that fall under those categories. And no matter what, go to Amazon or your local bookstore or whatever it is you buy books and get Miranda

Starting point is 00:24:30 in Retrograde and then tell me what you think because I freaking loved it. Lauren, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Here's the thing about rom-coms or really anything that brings you joy. They remind us that life doesn't always have to be so serious. We get to choose what we let in, what we make time for, and how we nourish our souls. Whether it's a clever but messy woman who makes you laugh, a story that offers a little escape from your never-ending to-do list, or a moment that just makes you feel good, don't underestimate the power of bringing and allowing some lightness in your life. So go ahead, embrace what makes you happy, even if it's a little off-brand, even if it's

Starting point is 00:25:11 just for you, maybe especially if it's just for you. Because in a world that often demands so much from us, we deserve to find joy in the simple, unexpected places. Finding joy and laughing like a lunatic are most definitely woman's work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why RomComs Heal Our Hearts with Lauren Layne | 256

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