This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why Work Feels Broken (And How Attunement Can Fix It) with Nidhi Tewari | 406

Starting point is 00:00:00 Grownups, if there's a child in your life who is interested in, curious about, or fascinated by people in places from history, then my podcast, The Past and the Curious, might just be a hit in your home. From the invention of microscopes to world-traveling dogs to fashions of the 1890s, gold rush ghost towns, and audiences going wild for walking competitions, we've got a little bit of it all. Hosted by Children's Author and Museum educator Mick Sullivan, that's me, the show is, fun, funny, engaging, honest, and beloved by kids and parents alike. Find the past and the curious at all the usual podcast places. Quick pause.

Starting point is 00:00:41 We expanded to YouTube because we keep hearing, I needed this 20 years ago. And the next generation shouldn't have to wait. So tell the young women in your world who are scrolling and watching to subscribe to This Is Woman's Work on YouTube. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And part of that redefinition includes work itself, how we show up to it, what we tolerate, what we expect from it, and whether the way we've been taught to work actually works. Because I'm going to give it to you straight. Based on the conversations I'm having and the

Starting point is 00:01:32 data that we're seeing, work appears to be broken, or at the very least, not working in the way that we keep pretending it is and definitely not living up to what it could be. And to be fair, I don't know if it ever really has. But what I do know is this. We've got masses of burnt out people, people who are disengaged and asking themselves, is this really as good as it gets? So now we're left in this weird space where everyone's kind of performing, but nobody feels particularly connected, motivated, or inspired to do great work. Employees feel undervalued and overworked. Leaders feel like they can't win no matter what they do. Systems keep getting built to manage worst-case behavior. And we all end up operating in environments that feel more transactional than

Starting point is 00:02:20 productive. And yet, we're still told that our solution is to separate ourselves from our work, to compartmentalize, to keep your personal life out of work, keep it together, keep it professional. mess, no emotion, no humanity. Except that's not how humans work. We're complex, we're messy, evolving, we're learning things, and pretending otherwise isn't making work better. It's making it lonelier, which raises a question, not how do we work harder or even how do we work smarter, but how do we actually work well? Because maybe the answer isn't another productivity hack or meditation app subscription. Maybe it's something deeper. something more human. And we're going to talk about it with Nidhi Tawari, a licensed clinical social

Starting point is 00:03:08 worker who works with high-performing leaders, navigating stress, burnout, and trauma, and partners with major organizations to improve workplace culture and connection. She's a member of the Harvard Business Review Advisory Council, a 26 Thinkers 50 Radar Award recipient, and the author of working well, how to build a happier, healthier workplace through the science of attunement, where she challenges us to move beyond emotional intelligence into something deeper. So, Nidhi, welcome to the show. I would like to start here because I think it's probably the foundation for everything we're about to talk about.

Starting point is 00:03:44 What do you mean by the science of attunement and how is it different from what we hear about emotional intelligence? Well, thanks for having me, Nicole. I'm thrilled to be here. So attunement is this moment-to-moment responsiveness to the emerging needs within ourselves and within others. It's all about being able to adapt to the unique needs of the people that we're working alongside. And what's really interesting about attunement is that, you know, we typically think about our feelings, we think about our thoughts, but attunement happens on a neurobiological level,

Starting point is 00:04:19 which means that when we're in conversation with one another, our neurons are sinking, our hormones are sinking, our breathing, our heart rate, all of these physiological mechanisms within us sink up and end up connecting with the other person that we're engaging with. And this can be to our benefit or to our detriment. So the idea of attunement is mastering the skill of adaptation, flexibility, being able to read cues, being able to self-regulate and collaborate with the people that we are working with. Now, how does attunement and relational intelligence differ from emotional intelligence? Well, emotional intelligence is an absolutely essential skill for us to be able to connect effectively

Starting point is 00:05:03 in the workplace. But emotional intelligence is very self-focused. It's about our empathy, our ability to self-regulate. It's about how we're showing up in our interactions. But when we talk about attunement and relational intelligence, we're looking at what's happening between us in the moment. We're looking at how culture affects different interactions, how power differentials impact the way that we're navigating a conversation with one another. We're looking at how conflict gets resolved and how we're able to repair after damage is done. And so that is

Starting point is 00:05:37 that key differentiator. One, attunement happens on this neurobiological level. And two, it's different because we're looking at what's happening between us versus just focusing on what's happening within. Okay, that is incredible and it feels wildly important and complex. Like if you think about collaboration, self-regulation, flexibility, being adaptable, that thing that happens between us, the great thing about emotional intelligence, as you said, is it's focused on us, but we have control in theory. What you're talking about feels harder because it involves other people. So what I am kind of getting at is how do we begin to practice attunement versus just controlling what we can control?

Starting point is 00:06:29 Which it is a part of it, right? So the self-regulation piece of four key skills are flexibility, reading cues, self-regulation and collaboration. So let's break each one down. Flexibility is our ability to be agile in our interactions to understand that what somebody needed a moment ago may not, be what they need right here and now. And to also look at people as not monoliths, right? So I do a lot of work with Fortune 500s on being able to adapt to neurodivergent needs. And the biggest mistake I see people make is that they think two people with ADHD or two people with an anxiety disorder have the exact same need for accommodations and support. And that's just not the case. So that flexibility is

Starting point is 00:07:09 being able to recognize, okay, what Nicole needs right now is perhaps a listening ear and to vent, But maybe later on in this conversation, she is looking for some suggestions or some opportunity for us to brainstorm together. That's what we're talking about when we say flexibility. I just want to jump in on that because I think it's so important, not only with neurodivergent, great example. I was going to ask about that. But also just anything that people perceive is different. Like we tend to potentially try to treat all women the same or all people of certain ethnicities the same. or that if we understand one person who is X,

Starting point is 00:07:47 that we understand all people who are X. And that is just not the case. And then I even want to hone in on something you said. Even what I need today might be different than what I need a year from now. We are evolving, changing people. So this ability to be agile to be flexible, to adapt to people in situations is so,

Starting point is 00:08:12 important and feel so missing. It is. And I think a lot of managers and leaders are not necessarily trained in this. We're taught to utilize a one-size-fits-all approach and that what's good for one person on the team should be employed across the team, right? Or what's good for you six months ago is exactly what you're going to need now. So the onus falls on both parties. The leader needs to be really tapping into what's the person that I'm leading requiring from me right now. But it's also on us as employees, right, or people who are employees to communicate what those needs are. Clear is kind. And your leadership cannot mind read what your, what the supports are that you're requiring right now. So when both of those parties come together and communicate and can

Starting point is 00:08:57 pull out and tease out what is exactly required in that moment, it makes a tremendous difference in the way that we're connecting with one another. Agreed. Okay. Reading cues. Talk to us about that. So reading cues is a bit more self-focused and also externally focused. So we want to read the cues within ourselves to notice when our own discomfort is bubbling up to the surface because during challenging interactions or even just tough conversations, right, emotionally driven conversations, our own stuff comes up. And so we need to be able to read our own cues. Is our body language getting closed off? Are we leaning back instead of leaning in? And we also need to be attending to that within the other person that we're speaking with. So research has found somewhere between 60 to 90% of

Starting point is 00:09:41 communication is nonverbal. So what is being said is going to often differ from what is being communicated from a body language and demeanor standpoint. Some cues to be looking for. How's the tone of voice? What's the cadence of the delivery? Is their body language closed off? Arms crossed, legs crossed, right? Are they leaning away? Are they trying to give you short answers? rush through the conversation, all of these are cues to you that perhaps something that you're saying is not landing in the way that you've intended. If somebody's body language is initially very open and warm and engaged, and then the minute you give them feedback, they start kind of pulling it back and now you're noticing that defensiveness. It's a cue to you as the leader to start

Starting point is 00:10:28 shifting your delivery so that it lands in a way that it can be received by the other person. I'm curious with reading cues, how much does curiosity or asking questions play a part? Because I might interpret somebody else's cues based on my experience or what I would do or what happens to me. And so, for example, if I think that leaning back or crossing your arms is a sign that you're closed off because that's, you know, what I do, somebody else might be just be doing it because they're cold and, you know, covering themselves. So my question is, how do we get better at reading other people's cues without automatically putting our version on them? Yeah, we don't want to project our own feelings onto other people. You're right on about that. I think one of the most important skills we can cultivate is asking instead of assuming.

Starting point is 00:11:25 So when you notice that shift that's happening, a simple question like, talk to me about what's coming up for you as I'm sharing this piece of feedback or how is this landing for you. And then noticing how their demeanor shifts and changes based off of that moment, right? Because you're right. Sometimes it is as simple as I'm hungry and I'm thinking about something else and it has nothing to do with what you're saying. But you can get a better sense just by asking those clarifying questions and simultaneously then paying attention to what the body language and demeanor is doing as they're communicating their answer to your follow-up question. So once again, even our body language shifts moment to moment. And so if we were maybe closed off before, but really we were receptive to what

Starting point is 00:12:06 you were saying and we were genuinely cold, that body language is naturally going to open up. Just subconsciously, we do that as a way of communicating our receptivity to the feedback that's being provided. Yeah. Okay. Self-regulation. Is that the third? Yes, self-regulation. This is where now we notice, we read the cue that our own stuff is bubbling up, which, by the way, if that happens, it is totally normal, it happens to all of us. But now we need to do something about it. We can't just allow our own baggage to get in the way of connecting with other people because if we do not manage the discomfort, it will create disconnection because the other person is also attuning to you. They will read into the fact that you are pulling away. So we have to self-regulate. And the way that we

Starting point is 00:12:50 do that is first and foremost managing our breathing because that activates our parasympathetic nervous system. It's our rest and digest, the calming part of our nervous system that signals to our brain, everything is okay, you're safe and you're fine. So using a simple technique like 478 breathing, where you breathe in through your nose for four seconds, you hold in the breath for seven, and you exhale through your mouth for eight seconds. That in and of itself will help to, it will help you to shift right out of a stressful mode into a relaxed mode. The second thing that people can do is to just turn your eyes, ears, and neck, just turn your head because the orientation centers in your brain are located in your eyes, ears, and neck. And by just scanning the room

Starting point is 00:13:34 and observing your surroundings, you're helping to signal to your brain that, hey, everything is okay. Like, there is no physical imminent danger present. You don't need to be in fight, flight, freeze in this moment. And the last thing that we can do, that I have used in many a meeting, many as stressful negotiation is the five senses grounding technique, which some of you may have heard of. But this is where you just take a moment and can do a soft gaze past the person that you're speaking with. And notice five things that you see, four things that you can touch, three things that you can hear, two things you can smell, and one thing you can haste. And by using this technique, we're able to help ground ourselves in the present, and it takes us out of this anxiety spiral that we might be entering. This episode is brought to you by Tellus Online Security.

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Starting point is 00:14:59 Or that. And enjoy. Via rail, love the way. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country?

Starting point is 00:15:16 Join business leaders, policymakers, and influencers. for CGs national series on the Canadian Standard of Living, Productivity and Innovation. Learn what's driving Canada's productivity decline and discover actionable solutions to reverse it. I'm curious your thoughts on this. One of the things I often do in self-regulation is I ask for some time or some space because my emotions can get really high, specifically anger or rage. And I don't communicate effectively from that place. I don't make decisions effectively. from that place. And so I often will say, hey, give me five minutes. I'm having some emotions that are

Starting point is 00:15:59 preventing me from being effective in this moment. If I can take five minutes and then I can do breathe or the tips that you gave, the tactics, super helpful. What are your thoughts about asking for time or space to kind of go through this to regulate, especially at work? I think it is an absolutely valid way to handle the moment. And in fact, I think that a lot of times leaders, we feel like we cannot pause because it's a signal of weakness or that we are not able to think on the fly or come up with an answer in that moment. And sometimes the most powerful, sturdy thing that we can do is to just let somebody know, hey, you know, you've given me a lot to consider. Is it okay if I just take a few minutes? And I would love to circle back with you to chat with you with my thoughts, right? Share my thoughts with you.

Starting point is 00:16:47 giving yourself the opportunity to just recuperate, gather your thoughts, regulate your emotions is absolutely important. And it's how you're going to be able to show up in a way that is grounded and centered so that you can be present and connected to the other person. I'm so glad you made that point because I think sometimes we think effective leadership or even effective communication is having the exact right things to say in the moment. And I don't know about other people, but I very rarely, especially when emotions are involved,

Starting point is 00:17:16 to have the exact right thing to say in the moment. So I loved the word that you chose sturdy. It's a sturdy choice. All right. And then collaboration, correct, is the fourth? Yes. So collaboration is the fourth skill for attunement. And this is just simply working as an allied front, right?

Starting point is 00:17:32 It's letting the other person know that we're on the same team, that we're not operating in silos. I care about you. You care about me. So let's figure out a solution. Let's figure out a way to be able to move the needle forward together, considering both of our perspectives. And that collaborative approach helps to build psychological safety. It reinforces trust. And the other person feels heard and seen and understood, which helps them

Starting point is 00:17:56 to feel as though they matter. You know, like 30% of the people in the workforce right now, Nicole, feel like they're invisible. And so if we can just use these simple skills or very simple things that we can do to help people to feel like they matter to us, like we care about them, it makes a tremendous, tremendous shift within work culture in the workplace. Yeah, I said this in my intro, and I just want to reiterate because everything you said, I think is so important. I feel like people more and more think of work as transactional. I'm getting paid to do a thing.

Starting point is 00:18:29 And the underneath part is nobody cares, right? I'm invisible. The employees don't care about doing good work. The leaders don't care about the people or the humans. They only care about profit. or like there's all this sort of messaging that nobody cares. And my experience is people actually care a lot more on all sides than we give them credit for. So I guess my question is, do you agree?

Starting point is 00:18:55 Do you think people, employees, employers, corporations, obviously there are a few bad actors out there. But generally speaking, do you think people care more than we're giving them credit for? Oh, 100%. I think that everybody is well-intentioned, right? There are, like you said, a few bad actors. But overall, I would go so far as to say probably 95% in the workforce, whether you're a leader or you're an employee, you care. That's why you're employed, not only to just earn money, but we want to gain some level of fulfillment. We don't want to waste our lives 40 hours a week for 40 plus years doing jobs that are miserable, right? And so people

Starting point is 00:19:31 do care. And this is evidenced by a really interesting study that I saw just a couple of months ago where 50% of employees would forego a 10% pay increase just to feel more connected at work. So if you're making $100,000 a year, you would give up $10,000 just to feel connected and as though people care about you. If people didn't give a crap about the workplace, right, then they wouldn't be, sacrificing money and dollars out of their pocket to feel like there was some sort of camaraderie amongst themselves and their teams, right? So I genuinely think people want to do better. they're just, it's a skill deficit or in the skill gap because I don't think that there's a lot of training for leaders and for teams that instill these types of skills that could really make all the difference within the culture. Agreed. And I also think even if we talk about training or getting better at this skill, a lot of people's initial reaction is shit, another thing I need to do, another thing I need to learn. And the last thing any of us need is another thing on our to do list. So,

Starting point is 00:20:35 What does being attuned look like in the day to day? How can we begin to practice it without seeing it as this extra thing we need to do or like take time away to learn? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a valid point. And I'm glad that you brought it up because I don't want people to feel like, oh, no, like, great. Here's another thing. If I can shift your mindset on it to be these are things that you are likely already doing, right? These are skills that you innately have. and we're just simply enhancing and emphasizing them.

Starting point is 00:21:06 So for example, in a day-to-day interaction, let's say that a colleague comes to you and they share with you that they're feeling burnt out and overwhelmed because they've got three projects to you. They're about to have to head a meeting for their manager because their manager is out, right? And they're just feeling really downtrodden with the level of work. It would be as simple as saying something to them like, you know, that totally makes sense. That's a lot that's on your plate. Let me know how I can best support you.

Starting point is 00:21:32 do you just need a listening ear right now? Can I help out with one of the projects? Or maybe I can cover the meeting for you? Or do you want to just brainstorm some ways to be able to offload and delegate these tasks off? Right? Sometimes just something as simple as that is all that somebody needs. Like you validated what they're feeling was. You helped them to feel like they're not crazy.

Starting point is 00:21:52 Like they're not like they can't just, it's not that they can't handle it. It's that they're overburdened with the level of work. And then you ask them instead of assuming what they actually need in that moment. something as simple as that is what attunement looks like in action. You started by talking about neurons and how we're connected. And it leads to this question, is there any impact as it relates to attunement of being in person versus we're more and more in a virtual or hybrid situation with work? Is there anything to be paying attention to or nuance as it relates to attunement if you're not physically to? together. Yeah, I mean, there are some differences, right? So I think that this was one of the

Starting point is 00:22:37 biggest hurdles people encountered through the pandemic. And now, as we have a distributed workforce, which is fabulous in so many ways, but it can make it difficult. So when you're in person, right, you have the full body language. You're able to see people's legs so you can see if they're crossed or if they're bopping their leg out of anxiety, right? You're able to better gauge, you know, micro moments and micro movements and changes in expression. But I would say that you can do a lot of the same virtually. You're getting cues from your waist up, but there's a lot of signals that you can gauge just from that portion of your body language, right? So just paying attention to facial expressions, how people's facial expressions may shift from, you know, smiling to neutral to perhaps

Starting point is 00:23:19 a little bit more intense. Even just little shifts like that can tell you a story that is not being communicated through their language. And I do all of my work virtually. And so, and I'm a therapist and I also do this Fortune 500 coaching and speaking and I have to be very attuned to people. And so when you're doing trauma therapy and you're having to pay attention to these micro shifts that are happening, I can attest to the fact that it is doable. You just have to really hone in that skill set and know what to look for. Yeah. Okay. I think each of us needs to practice attunement, whereas I do think there is a little bit of a lean when we listen to things. like this to put this on someone else. The leader needs to practice attunement, this other person.

Starting point is 00:24:08 And I think what is happening more often than not is we are expecting our workplaces to suck. And then we have a confirmation bias, right? Like we think leaders don't know what they're doing. And then we think employees don't care. And so then we collect all the evidence that supports our theory. And I just observe so often that there's a lot of finger pointing, a lot of blame, a lot of this person's the problem, it's never me. And so I guess my question is, how do you encourage or reinforce that each person gets to practice attunement? Yes, we all need to be accountable. An attuned workplace does not come to fruition just from leadership being attuned to their teams. It has to be that colleagues are attuned to each other. Colleagues are attuning to their leaders.

Starting point is 00:25:00 Leaders are attuning to their team members, right? All elements of an organization, all parts of the hierarchy have to be on board. So that's why the book is divided up into three different sections. The first section is about getting in tune with yourself. And that is every individual's responsibility, right? We need to notice how our past is influencing our present day interactions because we all have experiences that form the lenses through which we perceive the world and that help us to be able to navigate conversations that we are having in the workplace. But often we are blind to those experiences. We don't make the connections.

Starting point is 00:25:36 So for example, if you're somebody who grew up in a household where your parents expected perfection from you, you're somebody who always had to abandon your own needs in order to support your family or in order to please and appease other people, that's going to show up in the workplace. You're going to have a much more difficult time setting boundaries. Making mistakes is going to feel awful to you, and you might feel much more hesitant to acknowledge when you messed up and to repair as a result of that, right?

Starting point is 00:26:05 That's a perfect example of how past influences present. So getting in tune with yourself requires you to have that self-awareness and to even go deeper than self-awareness to develop a consciousness about our own experiences and how they're affecting how we show up on a day-to-day basis. Then the second part of the book is about getting in tune with others. So this is where the collective responsibility comes into play, that colleagues need to be supportive of one another,

Starting point is 00:26:31 that when somebody comes to you and they're needing your support, that you don't fall into one of the three traps when it comes to communication foibles, right? Being a fixer, an avoider, or a connector in that moment, that we need to be aware of what is happening. And that means that we then are attending to other people's needs and adapting accordingly. And then the third part of the framework is about the check-ins,

Starting point is 00:26:52 which is all about like giving the language with which to connect. And that goes all directions. It is from leaders to their teams, teams amongst each other, and colleagues, you know, towards each other as well. So, yeah, to your point, Nicole, it is the responsibility collectively of everybody within an organization. And these are skills that can't just be relegated to one tier or another. My last question is around conflict.

Starting point is 00:27:18 and attunement. I have a belief that if you have healthy, strong relationships and you're working with people who ultimately care and are practicing responsibility, that conflict actually strengthens your relationships over time. Yet I think a lot of people avoid it and there could be the thought of like if we do attunement well, then there won't be any conflict. So where does conflict and attunement overlap, support each other? What's their relationship? Yeah. Conflict is critical because when we don't disagree, when we aren't able to share that we have a different opinion or that we have a different thought process than someone

Starting point is 00:28:01 else, it's a sign of low psychological safety. High trust organizations allow for people to disagree and for things to get messy. That is a necessity, right? So attunement does not mean that it's a conflict-free workplace. But what it does mean is that we know how to repair after conflict happens. And we notice what our role is in creating the conflict so that we can take full accountability for how we showed up and how we created the disconnect. And some of the most common ways that this happens, right, in terms of the most common drivers of conflict are the elements of connection gaps. So what I typically see happen where people pull back is, you know, you try to jump in and fix it with solutions so your own discomfort gets in the way of being present with the other person.

Starting point is 00:28:45 And before they can even finish their statement and bend to you, you're already jumping in with how they need to reorganize their calendar and how they need to be able to delegate tasks a little bit more effectively. And it leaves the other person feeling unseen and unheard. The next one is the avoiders. So these are the people that try to shift the conversation away. And this creates conflict because the other person just wants to feel seen and understood. And instead you're offering platitudes like, hey, it's not so bad. Don't worry. We'll get through it. It's an avoidance strategy and it's emotional bypassing. So that we need to pay attention to our role in that. And then I see people be connectors, which sounds really good, but it's not how we

Starting point is 00:29:21 want to connect and it creates conflict as well because what happens is somebody shares with us that they're struggling and our instinct as a way to relate to them is to instantly say, oh my gosh, I remember feeling that way too. Oh, I was so burnt out just last week. Here's all the things that were on my plate. And what we've done is we've shifted the spotlight away from the person who needed support onto us. And they end up taking on a caretaking role towards us as a result. So those are the most common things that we see when it comes to conflict. And all we have to do is just acknowledge, validate, and plan how to do it differently. It's as simple as that when it comes to repairing after conflict. But just know, you know, nobody expects perfection from you. Anticipate that there will be,

Starting point is 00:30:06 you know, ruptures and that there will be conflict, but just get really, really great at being able to take responsibility and make it better. As you are going through that, I think if we're being honest with ourselves, I know I have done all three of those things and experienced all three of those things. And it never works very well. So thank you for walking through it. All right, I know so many people are going to want to learn more about this. So listener, go get the book. It's working well. available on Amazon or wherever it is you buy books. Let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also find Niddi on her website. It's niditawari.com. Niddy, thank you for being our guest and for doing this important and incredible work.

Starting point is 00:30:52 I can't wait to start hearing more people talking about working well in their day-to-day lives. So thank you. Thank you for having me. All right, friend, listen, I know we care about our work. We care about doing a good job. And whether we say it out loud or not, we care about the people we work with. But care without connection can get lost. It can get misread.

Starting point is 00:31:14 It gets buried under pressure, policies, and performance metrics. So maybe the work isn't to care more. Maybe the work is to show it, to practice it, to build it into how we lead, how we communicate, and how we show up, even in the smallest ways. Because isn't that what attunement really is? Not a grand gesture. not another thing to add to your plate, but the choice to pay attention,

Starting point is 00:31:38 to adapt, to read cues, to self-regulate, and to collaborate, to make the people around you feel seen, heard, and valued. And all of that, friend, is woman's work.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why Work Feels Broken (And How Attunement Can Fix It) with Nidhi Tewari | 406

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