This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why You’re Not Doing Your Great Work (And the Identity Saboteur Keeping You Stuck) with Dr. Amanda Crowell | 412

Starting point is 00:00:00 Grownups, if there's a child in your life who is interested in, curious about, or fascinated by people in places from history, then my podcast, The Past and the Curious, might just be a hit in your home. From the invention of microscopes to world-traveling dogs to fashions of the 1890s, gold rush ghost towns, and audiences going wild for walking competitions, we've got a little bit of it all. Hosted by Children's Author and Museum educator Mick Sullivan, that's me, the show is, fun, funny, engaging, honest, and beloved by kids and parents alike. Find the past and the curious at all the usual podcast places. If you love the show, the best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Kalil and you're

Starting point is 00:00:58 listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast, and today we're talking about you and I and all of us doing great work, not just work that looks great on LinkedIn or work that gets you a gold star from your manager or work that makes your family finally stop asking if you're ever going to get a real job. I mean, great work that actually matters to you. The work you care about. The work that used to light you up before life convinced you that great was supposed to be hard or complicated or Instagramable. Somewhere between childhood and adulthood, a lot of us got bamboozled. And yes, I know bamboozled is a ridiculous word. I almost cut it, but honestly, If there's ever been a time to acknowledge that we've been bamboozled, hoodwanked, duped, misled,

Starting point is 00:01:44 and generally talked out of our own brilliance, this is it. Think about it. As kids, we did so many things. We thought we could do so many things, and we assumed that we were great at them because we were having fun, until life talked us out of it. We explored without asking permission, without tracking analytics, without wondering if we needed a personal brand strategy. But eventually, great got hijacked.

Starting point is 00:02:10 It got tangled up with other people's definitions. Great meant competition. Great meant perfect. Great meant profitable. Great meant everyone else loves it, evidenced by one million views or likes. And before we knew it, our own great work, the stuff that meant something to us, became the first thing sacrificed when the calendar filled up and the inbox exploded, when responsibility piled on, when survival mode kicked in,

Starting point is 00:02:36 and when we started believing that being dependable mattered more than being alive. Because, friend, I'm working under the assumption that we all want to feel like we're great at what we do and that we all want to do something great. Not because of applause or algorithms, but because doing great work feels like coming home to ourselves. And if I'm assuming correctly, what is it that is keeping us stuck and why does it feel like there are so many roadblocks between us and our great work. Well, today we're getting into it with someone who has done the research and built an entire method to help us get out of our own way and back to doing great work. We're joined by Dr. Amanda Kroll, cognitive psychologist, and the author of

Starting point is 00:03:22 Great Work. She's the creator of the Great Work Journal, host of the Unleashing Your Great Work podcast, and her viral TEDx talk, three reasons you aren't doing what you say you will. Amanda is on a mission to help people do their great work, work that is meaningful, fulfilling, and truly their own. So Amanda, thank you for being with us on the show. And I have to start with what I think is probably the obvious question. What is great work? How are you defining that? Yeah. Thank you for having me. And I just need to tell you that that was a really great intro. Thanks. Wow. You did a great job. We could be done. We're done. That's literally my favorite part of getting ready for the conversations. I get to learn so much from incredible guests like you, but what really like gets my

Starting point is 00:04:09 mind into it is, is the time I put into preparing the openings. So that does feel like my own little version of great work. Yeah, definitely a part of your great work. I love it. I was really great. And you said it actually, great work is the work that matters the most to you. So it doesn't in any way have to be great to anyone else. It doesn't have to look even good on paper as long as it makes you feel more alive. It's aligned with your unique point of view. It expresses who you are in the world. It puts you in community with people that you respect. Then you're doing great work. Okay. So all of that sounds like we would know it, right? Like we would crave it. We would know it when we experience it. So then the next logical question in my mind is what is preventing us from doing great work

Starting point is 00:04:56 or keeping us from it or making it feel like it's so hard to figure out. So the first part that you said, We would know it. That's true. There is a deep resonance when we see it. One of the best ways it, like lots of people will tell me, I don't know what my great work is. And I'll say like, well, once last time you felt full scale jealousy because somebody else was doing something. And sometimes it's so random. You're like, why am I upset that that person is on the, on Sesame Street? Because like, not like a little bit. This is my own. Not just like a little bit, oh, that's cool. I'm a little jealous. No, I mean like full, full body. What? How? Why? When? Tell me everything. I can't handle that that happened. And it didn't happen to me. That's the kind of resonance. And yet some people, lots and lots and lots of people, their pushback on the idea of great work is, well, some people might have great work, but I really don't. And part of the reason why people feel like, and this is also the reason why they don't do it, is sometimes our great work feels so incredibly important that we almost, we almost like backlash against it. Like, well, I can't do that.

Starting point is 00:06:06 It's not that. Because it can bring up a lot of fear to do the work that matters the most to you. Because what if you do it? And it turns out you're bad at it. Like, what does that mean? Like, are you not supposed to be? You know, it can turn up a bunch of stuff. But let's assume, like you said, that the person knows what they would love to be doing. They've hit on it, right? They're like, I really want to write this book or I really want to start my own business or I really want to be the head. of that department or like whatever it is, why aren't they doing the things they know they should be doing? And there's a lot of reasons. One is that typically great work is not something other people choose you for. So like people choose you for a job, but they're not necessarily going to say,

Starting point is 00:06:46 what parts of this job are your great work? Let me give those to you. And you won't, and you can say no to these things that are less of your great work. So people don't choose it for you. They don't advocate for you in the same way. Like only you who can do that. It's, and you, you can, have to choose it kind of over the things, other people want you to choose, right? Like obligation, expectation, you've mentioned them in your opening, like being reliable, being a good breadwinner, being a good mother, like all of the things that we also want for ourselves, but it crowds it out. And sometimes great work can start to feel almost selfish or it can make you feel guilty. And for women in particular, that can really stop you in your tracks. You think like, oh, I'll do it when I'm

Starting point is 00:07:30 retired or someday I'll get to it or things will be easier someday and I'll get to it. But it's just, unfortunately, it's not the case that it's ever any easier to do it because there's a great big piece right at the beginning where you have to say, I choose this for myself, even if other people have feelings about it. I choose it even if they don't understand. I choose it because I can feel in my heart. It's going to make me feel alive. Okay. Incredible stuff in there and it triggers a few follow-up questions that are maybe not totally related to each other. So I'm just going to throw them out in no particular order. So first is, I'm thinking back, and there are definitely times where I experienced full-scale jealousy or, you know, got really unnaturally invested in somebody else's

Starting point is 00:08:18 whatever, right? Like it triggered a lot of judgment or what have you. And I would say that a lot of them have given insight into what I believe to be my great work. A few examples, like when I see sometimes people's podcasts go off the charts, I'm like, it's not even that good or, you know, like, it really judgy, right? Yeah. And or when somebody's traveling,

Starting point is 00:08:41 I've always wanted to live abroad or whatever. So that triggers some things and me. But there are some examples where I think it just triggered an insecurity, not a desire. And I felt like I was supposed to, I guess, my question is any advice about how to distinguish when it's something you truly want or it's something that is really important to you versus poking at an insecurity you might have. Yeah, I do. So I think there's two things. One is great work will always return. So I often will

Starting point is 00:09:17 get a big idea like, oh, this is going to be so great. I have a dog. She's a Newfipoo. She's a Newfoundland poodle and she's super cute. And I think I should. have an Instagram account for Ruthie. Like, I'm going to, I'll do voices and it'll be a whole thing. And then, love that. Yeah. And it's a great idea. But like, it never came back. And so I was like that there's something in there that's related to my great work. Like I love to do creative things. I think animals are really fun. I like voices. Like there's there's juice there, but it really wasn't the idea. So like, first of all, like, it's going to, it's not just going to trigger you one time. It's going to like come. It's going to land in all these different ways. You're going to see it

Starting point is 00:09:53 from across a million rooms. There's going to be like a thrills. There's going to be like a thread that holds it together. And so if you're unsure, one thing to do is just sort of like put it on ice and wait and see if it comes back. If it does pay more attention, if it keeps coming back, pay a lot of attention. And then the other thing that's sort of more to the point of what you were really asking is like, sometimes the feeling is one where we're like, I can tell if I did this and it went well, like I would be an expanded, more authentic, amazed by myself version of me. and sometimes it's like it makes you feel like you're caving in on yourself. Like I would be a little smaller.

Starting point is 00:10:29 I would be acting out of fear. I would be doing it because they told me to. It doesn't feel like freedom. It feels like restriction. And so getting to know your own self to calibrate what you're hearing is a lot of what it's about. I think so many of us have taken, we've made choices that were largely externalized. Like we were like this, they told me it was good.

Starting point is 00:10:51 it looks good on paper. Everyone says I should. My husband says a good idea and they're going to pay me a lot of money. I'll do it. But even from the beginning, if we were really honest with ourselves, it made us feel smaller. And maybe it was the right decision. Like it's really, it doesn't matter. Time goes in one direction.

Starting point is 00:11:05 You live with the choices you made. But as you're looking forward at your life, right, we want to make more choices that make us feel a little freer, a little bigger, a little more expressed, a little more authentic. And you really won't go wrong. That feeling of like, I just, this is a deal. insecurity. It's like it will, you'll still feel the insecurity, but you'll be like, if I work through this, I'll be a better version of myself as opposed to I just want to die a little bit because I'm just not good enough, which is a distinct feeling. It's not the same feeling. No, this is so good

Starting point is 00:11:34 because as I think about those feelings that popped out out of insecurity, it's usually some version of I'm not enough, I'm behind, there's something wrong with me. There was nothing freeing or expansive coming up. It was, you know, again, like you said, that should, supposed to versus the things that came from true desire or that I definitely know there's something to it may be uncomfortable and scary and triggers some fear and some doubt, but it will feel expansive. I'll be drawn toward it. So, okay, so I really am liking these distinctions. My other question that came up is you had said sometimes we ignore a void because it feels so incredibly important. What if our version of great work doesn't feel so incredibly important to the outside world?

Starting point is 00:12:26 Like what if somebody's definition of great work is caring for dogs or I think caring for dogs or work from inside the home parent? What I'm trying to say is things that sometimes are getting dismissed a lot lately, but you believe them to be your great work, even if they're not public or being done on a big stage. Right. They don't make you famous. They don't make you rich. Right. Yeah. What other people decide is important is not what makes it important. You decide if it's important. So the staying at home with your kids, right? That is a classic example. Some people, they can have whatever feelings they want, think that that's like, you're playing small, you're not going big, like you should lean in, whatever. People have a lot of feelings about that. But if in your heart of hearts, the way you, what you think is right for you is staying home with your kids when they're small, giving them that time. putting your own career and ambition in that respect, like your ambition is to be the world's best mother. That is great work.

Starting point is 00:13:25 It just is period. And some people might choose not to do that, in part because of people's feelings. Like we already talked about that. But sometimes they might be like, what if I become a stay-at-home mom and I learn things about myself that make me really question who I am and what I'm here for?

Starting point is 00:13:47 And we sometimes out of that fear, out of the fear that what I've always wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, now my husband makes enough money or my wife or whatever is making enough money for me to do that. And I'm still not doing it. Why? And it might be because we don't want to discover that what we know is our great work, we're not meant for it. The good news is you get in there and you're going to like some parts of it and you're not going to like other parts of it, but you're going to be living your life and it's going to feel alive. So you don't really have to worry about it. But a lot of people, like they don't write the book, even if it has nothing to do with it being a bestseller, they just want to write a book. They want to self-publish a book on Amazon that their mother will read. And they're fine with that. They just want to write the book. It's nothing great.

Starting point is 00:14:32 But to them, they still aren't doing it because it's like, well, what if I find out I'm a terrible writer? And so there's much, much, much of the great work method is about like getting into it and learning your way through it. But you should never be afraid that there is no there. there because if it's your great work there is. Yeah, it reminds me of, I often say to myself, the only way to find out is to do it, right? And so, you know, sometimes that's the encouragement I need to just step forward. And I just have to believe that there are people out there whose great work is to raise children, stay at home. Mom or dad, the world needs it committed, engaged parents for sure. And I know that that is not my great work. Of course, I love my child and I love

Starting point is 00:15:22 being a mom and I am invested and committed. And I don't believe that's like the one thing I was put on earth to do. But I absolutely believe that there are people out there, moms and dads. That is their great work. And I guess the only way to find out is to do it for those people who feel that calling. Is that? Yeah. And I also will say there's seasons in a person's life. And I have children and I've never, I have always had two jobs. So, like, I was, like, the opposite of what you would call a state-home one. I was, like, always. I've always been a professor and had a business in my children's entire life, right?

Starting point is 00:15:57 And yet, I would say that raising them is part of my great work. I, like, loving them, knowing them, helping them find out who they are, like, doing the kind of work I do with my clients with them and my husband and also sometimes not doing that. Like, they're a part of it. Great work is not the one thing. I wouldn't say that great work, my thing, is my only great work. So was being a consultant for New York City's most vulnerable students. So as being a college professor and a mom. It's just that when I start to, when I feel the call, I'm like, this is part of my great work, I can turn around and look at my whole life and see the thread of who I've been trying to become the whole time. But it's gone through parenthood. It's gone through teaching. It's gone through

Starting point is 00:16:41 coaching. It's gone through writing. It's gone through. And that's what makes it beautiful. And yet it's still all a piece, right? It's like a tapestry. That's mine. Yeah. So I had written down one of the questions that is our great work one thing. And you perfectly answered that. What I'm hearing is there is likely to be a through line. But there may be many expressions over many stages of our great work. which I find exciting and exhilarating. And it relieves the pressure a little bit as if it's just this one thing and we're supposed to figure it out. So in your book, you talk about identity saboteurs. What is that and how does that play a part in doing great work?

Starting point is 00:17:27 So the thing about identity is, so sort of backing up a little bit, an identity, we all have multiple identities. And if we think, so whenever you say something like, this is just who I am, you're essentially saying this is an identity. identity that matters to me, right? So for example, I think of myself as a very heart-centered person, right? Like, I'm always here to help. That's what I'm here to do. And that has gotten in my way, that identity has sabotaged me when I need to sell my coaching programs or whatever, right? Like sales or people who want me to do things for free when my time is very limited. Like your identity can sabotage you when the thing that you think of yourself as being feels in conflict with the thing you need to do, right? So there are different ones that have a tendency to pop up.

Starting point is 00:18:13 One definitely is like I don't want to be the kind of person who's quite pushy. And so I won't promote my work. I won't ask people to be on my podcast, although that usually is received as a gift, as you know. But like I won't ask my guests to post about my podcast when their episode comes out because I don't want to push them. I don't want to make them do it, which can get in the world. of you experiencing the full expression of your great work, right? Like you, sometimes we need to resolve that identity conflict or clash in order to get the best and greatest expression of our great work. So there's lots of examples of how a piece of your identity can like rise up and you

Starting point is 00:18:59 have to resolve it. Otherwise, it will continue to be this block forever. Okay, that completely resonates with me. And it's something I'm actually kind of working through my. myself right now, I began realizing just in the last few months, you know, I kind of have lived my life seeing myself as the underdog or the person who kind of was undervalued or like came in under the radar and like had to prove myself. And there is sort of a point of pride around that. And it's very deeply rooted. This is like direct from my dad. And I think being a woman, there are just so many things playing apart. And I'm recognizing. how often that storyline is weaving its way through my life.

Starting point is 00:19:46 I mean, even as I was joking around earlier about like the podcast that's blowing up and I'm like, oh, it's not that good. I still have this narrative around like, we're the underdog and we do good work, but we're always going to be undervalued and underappreciated, like that kind of thing. And it is amazing how exhausting it is and how often I consciously, subconsciously, even noticing it, whatever, reinforce that identity. And you know what? I got to tell you I'm sick of it. Oh, yeah, girl. Yeah, totally. And we all grow identities like for, and we can be very grateful for something like an underdog identity, right? Like I kind of have one of those two where it's like I

Starting point is 00:20:26 overcame all of this stuff. I look around my life and I'm like, I'm not overcoming those things anymore. Like we're not poor. So stop acting like you're poor. Like we're not, there's nobody in my family immediately who's, you know, having a mental health crisis or drug addiction or whatever. Like, but the fact that those were, those were part of my sort of childhood story that I, like, I rose up against those things and became this is still true, but it's not the active. It's not the storyline that's going to like get me into a more expansive version of myself. And the interesting thing is you can look at your life through that lens and it creates a set of choices, right? Like, how are you going to, how are you going to say something? How are you,

Starting point is 00:21:07 what opportunity are you going to go after? You can look at the same life through a different lens, have a different set of opportunities. And it's, it is sabotage because like, here's this thing you know really well, keeps creating these kinds of opportunities. But you already know those. Over here, if you're like, actually, I happen to know because I checked on the Instagram machine, your podcast is like a top 10% podcast. Yeah, we do pretty well. And so like you're you could be like I have a top 10% podcast. What opportunities does that open for me? Who could I bring on this podcast?

Starting point is 00:21:40 How could I get it in a bigger thing? What if I joined a podcast? I don't know what you want to do. But like if you looked at it as like I'm actually cream of the crop at this point, I can make choices. Like it just changes so much. Same life, different lens, different experience. Yeah. And it is interesting how we hold on to these stories that aren't.

Starting point is 00:21:59 We feel familiar. And they're not necessarily true. anymore or again in this example, we had like just over two million downloads last year alone. Like this is not a small potatoes type thing. And yet I can always go, well, look at Mel Robbins or look at this person or that person. And all of a sudden it feels small again. Some party wants it to feel small so you understand what's happening. Right. Yeah. Yes. And I can buy into that story undervalued, you know, coming from behind that. type of thing. So then my next question is for clearly myself and everyone listening in,

Starting point is 00:22:37 how do we begin to replace an identity or choose something that's more productive and more empowered that actually can work for us in our current set of circumstances? It's interesting because like you're doing a great job of sort of actually consciously naming that storyline. So the first thing is actually to do that, to like really get clear. What story am I telling myself that I'm tired of telling myself? So like not everybody has done that yet. Do that first. Like be, be onto it. Look for clues. Try to articulate it. Give it that time. Then it's a question of like, you have to resolve it. So, and you don't do that by pretending something that isn't true is true. Right. Like you will probably want to say, I used to be the underdog. Even that is a completely different story.

Starting point is 00:23:28 I am an underdog, very different energetic from I used to be an underdog. And I would say if you can't get your head in the right space, ask somebody else to be like, tell me what's possible for me now that I'm not an underdog. I just need some help to see that because other people are seeing it anyways. They've already seen it, right? They're like, oh, no, you have every chance. So once you get something that feels like the new belief, the old belief was I'm an underdog, the new belief is, I used to be an underdog.

Starting point is 00:23:56 and what does that mean for you, then you just have to do, like, thought work, where it's like, as soon as you find yourself falling into that underdog thing, it's like you stop yourself and you say like, no, sorry, that's my bad. I used to be an underdog. And that felt really familiar for me. And it's a little bit challenging for me right now to really step into this, all this opportunity, but I'm learning how to do that. Yeah. So what I love about this approach, the sort of, you said, bridge to reality. That speaks to me because some, Sometimes when we go like into affirmations or things like that, I just feel like I'm lying to myself. I bullshit from a mile away and I cannot bullshit myself in that way.

Starting point is 00:24:36 So like this sort of bridge to reality speaks to me. I want to go back to you said that we have many identities. You walked us through like naming it, resolving it. If we have many identities, and I believe that we do, how do we know if one of them is holding us back from doing our great work? I mean, my example was, I think, fairly obvious, but I'm sure there are other identities that may be contributing. So how do we know if one of our identities is, in fact, getting in the way? Okay. Well, first of all, if you're, if you're, so there's this, my TEDx talk, if you want to link to it in this show notes, is called three reasons you're not doing what you say will do.

Starting point is 00:25:17 And it's about the cycles of defensive failure, which is where you avoid failing for real, which is where you do it and do it badly, by failing by doing nothing. So like it looks like procrastination, but it's really like a mindset thing. And it's largely about these kinds of problems that a person has where they're like, I really want to reach out to that connection that I got the email. Somebody sent me an email for somebody who could help me do whatever it is I'm trying to do, but I haven't written the email for three weeks, right? If you're experiencing cycles of defensive failure where there's an opportunity but you're not taking it, where you could write the post and but you don't, you write it but you don't push publish.

Starting point is 00:25:55 or then there's almost certainly a mindset sort of like identity block happening in there. So like that's the clue. That's the red flag. It's like something weird is happening here. I really want to sell my book, but I am not asking people to post about it. Why? What is happening? If it feels perplexing like that, that's probably some kind of an identity thing.

Starting point is 00:26:15 So then the next thing is to sort of ask yourself what you believe about yourself and where do you start to feel gross? It's not a subtle feeling where you're like, yeah, that's terrible. I don't want to be that person. If you're like outraged about something weirdly, I was outraged the other day that I went to CBS and I had to like enter my own information into the computer. I was like, why are you so outraged? There's like just another automation. I'm like, I know.

Starting point is 00:26:43 But that's what's wrong with the world. I have to do everything. And so I had to look at that. I was like, that was a big response to a small thing. And it was a fear, not really an identity. like this idea, unfortunately, we do have some negative identities in one of mine that I'm working on, since we're being honest, what is like, I'm irrelevant, I'm an important, like, I don't matter to the world. Like, I can't have an impact. So that was a feeling of hopelessness

Starting point is 00:27:07 that popped up there. But identities are like bunches of bananas. Like you, there is this, the idea, like, I'm a heart-centered helper type, right? That is the one that we can articulate. But we think other things are related to that, hanging on the same banana. fine. Like that means that you're selfless and that means that you would do it for free. And it means that you care more about others than you care about yourself. And you know, like you have this like bunch of bananas and you're thinking like what is my problem? Like I don't think it's selfish to sell like this program I think is going to really help people. Look at the other bananas. Sometimes you'll realize tightly bundled with it is like tightly bundled with being an underdog

Starting point is 00:27:49 is probably ideas like, um, I need a. help. People need to help me or I won't be able to do this. And it's like maybe this is what you're feeling is at risk. But if everybody stops helping me now that I'm not an underdog and I've never been able to do any of this without help, then you're like, oh, that is the thing. Let's say you have a big aha. It is the thing. I'm really worried. People are going to stop helping me and I'm going to be all by myself and alone. Then it's like you fix the belief. If people stop helping me, I'm going to be all alone, I'll be abandoned. And then it's like, okay, that's the old belief. And now you realize, now that I'm at the highest level, actually, I'll be able to pick and choose and cultivate a team

Starting point is 00:28:30 of people who help me just the way I like it. And I'll be able to turn around and help others who in turn will help me. So you craft a new narrative about whatever it is, and then you do the same thing. So you just have to identify the thought, build the bridge, and then replace the thought by catching it and replacing it. And your friends can help you with this too. You should have a a mindset friend who's like, what did you just say? You're not an underdog. What are you? You said, I used to be an underdog. That's right, girl. And you can send each other confetti cannons, right? Because you can really, they can catch it a lot faster than you can sometimes. I say this a lot in the coaching work that I do. There is an expression. It's, it's hard to read the label from inside the bottle.

Starting point is 00:29:10 And that's what I think of when you're saying, have a friend, have somebody who knows you, knows your shit, knows your different identities and what you're wanting to let go of and what you're wanting to carry forward. because it is amazing how difficult it is to see it in yourself. Like when you're doing it or unconsciously when you're saying something. I've found it to be superbly helpful to have somebody outside the bottle. Yeah. Reading the label for you. And if you're really hot for something, sometimes it helps to hire a coach, like Nicole or whoever, like I do it too. There's lots of us out there in this world, sometimes getting that person or finding a community that you can join where, like,

Starting point is 00:29:49 that's the work they're doing, huge. It can be huge to just shift something that you don't even have to look at every individual piece. It's almost like the vibe carries you up a little bit when you're in a group. Yeah. I don't know if this is the best last question, but I'm guessing that there are certain saboteurs or identities that are a little bit more commonplace among women or a little bit more commonplace in today's day and age. You said one that I think is pretty common that if I want it done right, I got to do it myself or it's always got to be me. When you said that, I was like, oh, I feel that one too, you know. So my last question is, are there any common identities that you're seeing play a big part in getting in the way of us as women in today's day and

Starting point is 00:30:38 age doing our great work. So, I mean, it's tricky because your childhood wounding, for lack of a better word, like whatever storyline you picked up, it impacts the one that really like lands hard. But as women, we're just, we're just plain socialized to put ourselves later, if not last, maybe not always last. Some of us had better mothers than others. Not me so much. But like, you know, like, some people are like, no, I don't put myself last, but you're still probably putting yourself later. And I find that like that whole question of the identity as women are selfless, they're caretakers. And it's very challenging. I think as a woman myself who likes to care take for people. Like I like to help. I don't want to lose that part of myself. One of the things that you'll hear

Starting point is 00:31:25 a lot in identity work that I think is wrong is that you have to become some different person. I'm never going to be an extrovert. I am an introvert. And that's how it is. I don't want to be an extrovert. That's not exhausting. So if I have to be an extrovert to fix this, it's not going to get fixed. And if I have to stop caretaking, loving, and caring for people to fix this, then it isn't going to be fixed. So instead, I think it's like, can we just stop asking the question of where in the caretaking world we fit in this linear line of people who matter more than us?

Starting point is 00:31:56 And instead say, love is not like that. I caretake you and you care take me and I look out from myself and it's just this. you can look at it through a different, same thing we were saying earlier. Like, it's not really about a hierarchy. It's just about a way of being. I caretick myself and others. That's who I am. And sometimes I find that the question we keep asking,

Starting point is 00:32:20 how do you put yourself first all the time? Don't you feel selfish? Like just creates and recreates the wrong question. Instead, it's like, what does it require for you to be the version of yourself? that can show up big for other people, take big leaps that make you feel alive. Like, there's a life you want. What do you, accept who you are, accept what's true of you, and then build a life around that. That's in integrity with what you want and who you still want to be.

Starting point is 00:32:53 It reminded me of, we've heard it, and I hate to bring it up again because it's being used over and over, but put your oxygen mask on yourself first thing. And I do think this is much more common with women is this, I'm here in support of someone else. And I like that you said we put ourselves later, sometimes last, sometimes later. My reframe on the oxygen mask is I take care of myself so I can show up best for the people that matter most. And telling myself that inspires me to prioritize myself. And it's really purposeful that I can show up. up at my best for the people that matter most because it's just this reminder that I am not meant

Starting point is 00:33:38 to be all things to all people all the time. And not everybody's going to like me and that is a okay. The only way to not upset anybody is to do nothing at all. Yeah, right, exactly. And I will also just say that it's also okay. I like what you said. I think it's a really good belief to hold instead of I'm here in the service of anybody who needs help because please somebody let me help them. but it's also okay to be like, I take care of myself because I'm out of blue. Because I want to. Yeah, because I want to feel good in my body because I want to enjoy my life. Why do we have to make it for someone else? I'm about to do it myself. I'm about to be like, and then other people will be inspired to take care of. No, Amanda, it's okay because you're a human being in a body that should enjoy her life. And it's really hard for women to stop right there and be quiet. Yeah, you are absolutely right. For me, it's that bridge to reality. you talked about earlier. That's how I'm like on the journey of reframing that in my own mind toward something that can just stand on its own. But I can't say that to myself yet without it

Starting point is 00:34:44 feeling somewhat untrue. Well, it's in a conflict with an identity. But you'll get there. Yeah. Okay. Well, I could talk to you all day. I have one million more questions, but I know people are going to want to find out more about you and your work. So Amanda's website is Amandacroll.com. Absolutely go get your hand on her. her book, great work available on Amazon or wherever it is you buy books, but let's keep our local bookstores in business. And we'll link for TEDx talk and all the other ways to find and follow Amanda in show notes. Amanda, thank you for being here today and for reminding us that we both have great work to do and that the world needs us to do it. Thank you for having me.

Starting point is 00:35:23 All right, friend, I know sometimes it might feel like it is, but our great work isn't hiding from us. It also isn't waiting for perfect timing for our schedules to magically clear or for us to become the most focused, disciplined, enlightened version of ourselves. Our great work has been with us the whole time. Nudging, whispering, tapping on the shoulder like an impatient toddler. What has been in the way isn't a lack of talent or drive or worthiness. It's the identity saboteur we've been living with. Maybe it's a people pleaser. Maybe it's a burnout survivor.

Starting point is 00:35:56 maybe it's some other version of something that worked for you in the past, but whatever version of us that learned how to survive the world didn't learn how to let us thrive in it. And a loving reminder that around here we define women's work as whatever feels true and real and right for you. We assume we know that you are great and it invites no it requires that you show up like it. Trust yourself to do the great work that only you can do. Whatever you're great work is whether it's big small loud quiet public or intimate it matters and so do you so go do your great work because doing it is woman's work

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Why You’re Not Doing Your Great Work (And the Identity Saboteur Keeping You Stuck) with Dr. Amanda Crowell | 412

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