This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - Women’s Role in Defining Masculinity with Moe Carrick | 252

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

It’s no secret that many work environments were built by and for men, leaving women’s contributions and the feminine underappreciated. But here’s a twist: What role do women play in shaping masculinity itself? Honestly, I didn’t even know where to start. That’s why I’m thrilled to welcome Moe Carrick to the show. Moe is an internationally recognized expert in workplace culture, known for helping organizations like Nike, Nintendo, Amazon, and Reddit foster healthy, inclusive environments. With three TEDx talks under her belt and recognition from Thinkers360, Moe has authored Fit Matters, Brave Space Workplace, and most recently, When Work is Good: What it Means, Why it Drives Results, How You Can Build a Workplace People Love. We all have a part to play in shaping leadership that values every form of energy—masculine, feminine, and everything in between. So, ask yourself: What role will you play in creating a workplace where all forms of leadership thrive? Connect with Moe:  Website:https://moementum.com/  Book:https://www.amazon.com/When-Work-Good-Results-Workplace/dp/B0CGKZWJD1/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&sr=1-1  LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moecarrick/  Take The Pulse Check Quiz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moecarrick/  Related Podcast Episodes: Masculine & Feminine Energetics And How To Unify Them with Dene Logan What It Means to Be Codependent At Work with Amina AlTai Share the Love: If you found this episode insightful, please share it with a friend, tag us on social media, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform! 🔗 Subscribe & Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

I am Nicole Kalil, and I almost always open up a new episode with a few thoughts and opinions and occasionally a full-blown rant on the topic that we're covering. And because I always create my openings ahead of time, I tell my guests that they're welcome to challenge, disagree with, or offer a completely different perspective on anything that I say. Normally, with some preparation and research, I feel like I have a handle on where the conversation is going and how to best set up the topic. But today, I'm struggling to do that, mostly because I have no idea what our guest is going to say and how to best tee her up.

Our topic for this episode of This Is Woman's Work is rethinking women's roles in defining masculinity, specifically at work. And that feels like a big and potentially touchy subject. And I've given a lot of thought over the years about valuing both the masculine and the feminine in the workplace. We've talked about masculine and feminine energetics on this podcast, and it's no secret that I believe that most work environments were originally built by and for men, and therefore women and the feminine have been undervalued for far too long. But the part that women play in defining masculinity, friend, I don't know enough to even know where to start,

which is exactly why I'm excited to have Mo Carrick on the show. Mo is an internationally respected pioneer in the study and practice of workplace culture, and her award-winning frameworks and tools have been used by some of the country's most recognized brands, such as Nike, Nintendo, Amazon, Hydroflask, and Reddit to improve workplace culture, reduce churn, and drive business performance. She has been recognized three times with the Thinkers 360 Award, has been featured three times on the TEDx stage, and has authored three books, bestselling books, in fact. They're called Fit Matters, Brave Space Workplace, and most recently, When Work is Good, What It Means,

Why It Drives Results, and How You Can Build a Workplace People Love. Mo, welcome to the show. And I am very curious where this conversation is going to go. So I'm super excited. Thank you so much, Nicole. What a fabulous intro. I love it. I love it. Just delighted to be here. Awesome. Okay. So I think maybe we should start by talking about these gendered notions of leadership and workplace and culture and where masculinity and femininity fit in, in general. Can you just kind of give us a baseline from your perspective on what we're going to talk about? Yeah, absolutely. Workplace norms and mindsets really having been defined by men, not because of anything in particular other than history itself,

right? And I often think about how, in particular for notions of leadership, but also really every dimension of organizational dynamics, it all sort of starts in the Industrial Revolution, right? And it's post the Industrial revolution that certainly in my field, my professional field, which is organizational development or organizational behavior, the study of people and systems management theory really began to evolve. And it evolved because we now had people who had moved out of agrarian societies into urban societies where they were aggregating in big groups in a business structure, often back then in a factory or in a mill where we had one-to-many kind of ratios, right? We had like lots. I always think of that scene from Les

Miserables, the guy with the whip, you know, and all the women in the sewing machine, and he's like getting them to, you know, work their six days a week or whatever, kind of a gruesome, you know, scene. But those early notions of what it meant to lead and how to design a company were very much biased towards the dominant culture at the time, which was white male culture inherited largely from the Northern European immigrants who formed the basis of the Industrial Revolution here in America and in Europe as well. So it doesn't surprise me, and it shouldn't surprise any of us, that we have notions that we've inherited about what culture and leadership look like in systems based on those mindsets. The problem is they are outdated. The economic

and the organizational mindsets of the Industrial Revolution don't work in our modern economy, A. And B, we have had a change, a sea change in who's in the workplace anymore. It's not only that we've added women, although that's a hugely significant transition since the world wars of women in the workplace. We also have people who identify as men and women or neither, who identify as trans, who identify as something other than cisgender. And so we've got a workforce that actually isn't the same as what was constructed at that time, but we're still operating very much in ways that carry on those embedded mindsets. And it's not just work, of course, it's life in general. So that's kind of where, for me, those notions come from. And what I find intriguing is that we have done very little to actually consciously, I think, shift those notions of what good looks like in particular in those systems. And when I say we, I really do mean the collective we, because the challenge lives inside of us as women as well, around our own gender notions of what good leadership looks like. And I'll just give you like one small example. We all know, I think most women, I bet your listeners know this,

when women attempt to embody the traditional historical notion of good leadership. For example, being decisive and commanding. Another characteristic might be rugged individualism. I'll speak for myself. I'm a rugged individualist. I sometimes say, I can do white guy really well. Because I, too, grew up in that culture. I inherited the bias that those are the behaviors that I should have as a leader in organizational life. The problem is when I put them in place in my behavior as my identity cards, a white woman, they don't look the same. So a man who is seen as decisive or commanding or assertive in his role, embodying those same behaviors is seen with positive attribution. When I carry those same skills forward, I'm often seen with negative attribution. I'm called the B word.

I'm seen as cold or unapproachable. So that's one of the ways that the genderization of leadership, for example, shows up in us. And now that same exact characteristic can negatively harm men as well. So you have, let's say, a male leader who isn't a rugged individualist, who is highly collaborative and communicative. He may be seen as weak because those qualities are not seen as favorable in the genderization of what he inherited. I'm guessing we all have a personal experience that speaks to what you just said. So do you agree that we all have masculine and feminine energies within us that isn't as simple as men are masculine and women are feminine? And then, of course, all the other gender identities that there are now.

Is it a fair place to start that we all have both within us? I believe so. And I would add, I don't believe that gender characteristics are binary. So I don't think there's a one and a black and a white. I think there's an end both. There's lots of gray in between, but absolutely we all can and often do embody characteristics that are attributed to the opposite or a different gender than ours. Yes. Okay, great. Then how do we help dismantle some of what I call gender expectations so that we can show up within our spectrum and not face the backlash or be treated differently for doing something someone else is doing? Is that even possible? Thoughts or reactions there? Yes, I think it's possible. Is it easy? No.

Right? So unfortunately or fortunately, Nicole, from where I sit, the work fundamentally for each of us as human beings all starts within. It all starts within. And that's the hardest work of all, isn't it? Right? Because we've got to look at our own historical beliefs, at our own personality dynamics, and what is going on there around genderization. When we do that, when we start to really look and understand, we become capable of modifying our behavior. So we can't change our behavior until we know why we're behaving in the way that we do. So it is my belief that we can shift these notions of gender in the workplace in ways that are positive, but we can't get at that unless we're willing to really look at our own embedded or inherited

or adopted biases and beliefs. And I've got some examples on that if it's helpful. I would love some examples and, yeah, some ways that we can go internal to really identify but also question and challenge any of those beliefs. Because as you said, a lot of them are inherited. They're not consciously chosen. Totally. I'll talk about one that's like deeply personal for me. And that is my own embedded beliefs around caregiving. So caregiving is a huge issue at work because we know that in order to be a caregiver and also work full time, we have to

have workplace flexibility. It's one of the biggest currencies in the world of work right now, and that's true for any gender. But predominantly, the caregiving responsibilities in our society have fallen to women, both caring for the elderly, caring for children, caring for the ill, et cetera, which means that women have been in a double bind around how we can navigate full-time work, how we can navigate big jobs like CEO jobs. Most of the CEOs I've coached who are women have a full-time caretaker at home. Often it's their husband or partner. That's true for men as well. So that creates a tension because it means that men or partners are staying at home. So in order to shift that around, one of the ways I often say this is that until men are seen as competent carers, we won't have gender equity. And here's an example of how that plays out. For more than 10 years, many big corporations, not as common in the small corporations,

but them too, they're following along, are now starting to grant paternity leave for the birth or adoption of a child for men, you know, as well as maternity leave for women. And yet, by and large, those leaves are not being taken or they're being taken in a very low impact way. So a man might get, let's say, a three month leave, but he takes it out over two years of, you know, two days a month or whatever, which is really minimizing his capacity to jump into that caretaking role, but also minimizes the effect on the employer. And I've talked to a lot of men, young men, about why not? And what they say is what women have often felt for years as well. Like, well, it feels like a devil vine. If I take three months off for the birth of my child, I'm afraid I'll be seen as

not career motivated, not ambitious, et cetera, which is what women have felt for centuries. So when I think about that and how that lives in myself, I am the mother of three. I'm a divorced, I was a divorced mom who shared custody with my kid's father. And I embedded and naturalized those own characteristics in terms of how I saw caregiving myself. So when we were married, I was the full-time income provider, but I also was really efforting to be the full-time income provider, but I also was really efforting to be the full-time carer, which meant I didn't do either one particularly well. It was only when we got divorced and we moved into shared custody where I had every other week to work as much as

I wanted to travel wherever I needed to for my work that I was like, holy heck, like if I can kick ass, if I have some time. And I had to start looking at my own bias around what good caring looked like. So I had to notice, for example, I'll never forget going to a choir concert with our daughter who was six or seven years old. She was with him that week. We were in the audience sitting together. I remember looking up on the stage and thinking, oh my God, she looks like a ragamuffin. Her hair is messy. Her socks don't match. And I felt shame.

I thought, oh my gosh, people are going to think. This is where I went in my mind. People are going to think that she's not being well cared for. So I sat with that for a minute and had a lot of judgment about him. Oh, he didn't comb her hair. He didn't match her socks. Meanwhile, I watched this little girl gloriously singing in her choir concert, completely happy, safe, and loved. And I thought, what is going on with me

that I'm now, my mother of the year ambitions is interfering with my capacity to honor and acknowledge the way that he parents that's different than me. And so I turned to him and said, oh, she's saying, you know, she's so happy. And he looked at me, he said, man, it's hard to get her out the door and get her socks to match, isn't it? Then I was like, yeah, it is. She's headstrong and she's tenderheaded and you can never comb her hair without a wrestling match, right? So I had to let go of that, of my notion of what good caring looked like in order to be able to activate him actually being a full-time carer and to share that load. And that was when I really realized how much I had been carrying, not because he or society were forcing me to, but because I thought that's what

good looked like. Okay. So this is a beautiful and highly relevant example, and I want to dive a little bit deeper into it. Earlier, you said basically that men are experiencing now this double bind when given the opportunity for parental leave. And I might argue, and I'm curious your thought, that it's like a double bind plus, because not only are they experiencing what we're experiencing, this worry of people think I'm too much this or not enough that, or that I'm not committed or whatever. But on top of that, it goes against gender expectations. So while we as women experience this double bind, the reality is most of society expects us to do this, right? We are expected to take maternity leave. But I feel like for men, this might even be an added pressure because it goes against what people expect of them. Thoughts on that?

I agree 100%, Nicole, with what you're saying. And I would add that one of the biggest expectations that I see men bump into even in some ways more profoundly than women is the expectation to be the bread winner. The model of men as a bread winner and women as caring for home is outdated. It's not what's real in the modern workforce today. Many women's incomes exceed their partners if they're in a heterosexual relationship. And that doesn't get talked about. So men and men who are carers, when you talk to them, if they're full-time, they very consistently say, yeah, it's tough. I go to the playground. I'm the only man there with my children. There's 25 women. I'm not invited to play groups. I remember one man who I worked with who had been invited to a company event for his executive

wife. And all the activities that were set up were like spa days and manicures. And he's like, that's not actually really helping me as the spouse of this woman. So I'm supporting her career and we've agreed on this together, but I feel invisible at this executive event that spouses were invited to. So I think that those are some of the notions that we have to bump up against and it requires some deep work. For me, I had to let go. I still struggle with letting go of my own notions of what good looks like for myself. I'm remarried. My husband's an excellent cook. Our children are grown. And I still, last night he made crab cakes. He made this fabulous dinner. I worked late and then came out to this beautiful dinner and I felt inadequate. I was like, why do I feel inadequate? Oh, because

he cooked this amazing dinner and I'm supposed to be the cook, which is ridiculous because I'm not anywhere. I'm half the cook he is, right? But I'm noticing my own bias. Oh, it's my job to be the one that takes care of the cooking. So it's relentless, this work we have to do. It's relentless for me to be able to stand in my own economic power and say, oh, that's right. I was working till seven because I'm earning money for us to be able to have the life that we need. That's important too. We've agreed to these dynamics so that I can manage my own feelings of less than. And of course he's doing the same in his own journey. I subscribe to the belief that some people are assholes regardless of gender, but the vast

majority of us really have best intentions. And like we do, we serve each other best when we give So true. oh God, that's not what I meant or whatever. Any recommendation of how we can support people in this journey when they say something, I know we all want that mic drop moment and it's so fun to like have the flippant best response or the meme response or whatever, but it doesn't actually serve people. So any thoughts about how we might support each other along this journey so that we can get better

at noticing our biases? I think conversations create the acknowledgement and the visibility of bias. And the kinds of conversations that are necessary in this space are courageous by their very nature. It requires us to step into uncertainty, risk, and emotional, emotionality, really. And when we, you know, I think of it as those palm sweaty moments, when we notice or name or see something, or we just are feeling something that's like, whoa, I think I'm having a bias here, or I'm wondering why do I believe what I believe? It's that moment that we have to be willing to look underneath the surface and examine what's really happening with us or challenge what might be happening with someone else so that we can more effectively show in that situation as curious and also as not having all the answers. And

so for me, a lot of this work is about emotional intelligence. It's about social intelligence, and it's also about mind-body connection because emotions are felt in our body. So one of the ways I think that we are required to notice and aim by us is to pay more attention to what's happening with our body or also what's happening inside someone else. Because if we're paying attention, we can usually tune in. Oh, I've said something that might have caused offense. Or I've said something that might reflect the bias that I have. And so what do I want to do about that?

How do I want to notice that? Having bias doesn't make me a bad person. Having embedded beliefs of gender and how they show up in the workplace makes me just a human, right? And so in removing the social justice side out of it, I think reduces shame, which is like, oh, that's so interesting. I see it this way. So let me give you an example. My husband, whom I mentioned, is semi-retired and he often takes our dog to the dog park in the early mornings. And he shared with me recently, he's like, yeah, there's this whole group of men down at the dog park. Many of them are younger than him, but they're all there at like nine, you know, usual work hours. And so I've started asking them about like, what do they do? And the majority of them, there's four or five of them, their wives income is primary. And he, his first reaction was judgment. He's like, none of these guys are working full time. Their wives

are. And I said, what does that mean to you? He's like, well, I guess initially it, I have a judgment about it. Then he came back the next day and he said, you know, my judgment is not helpful because these men are doing what they've chosen to do in their partnership to make their lives work. And as am I, that's what he was able to look at as am I, and have a different point of view. And he got really curious about what are those situations? Why did they choose those things and how did that evolve? Which I think creates a lot more empathy and a lot more compassion for one another. But he had to kind of catch himself in judgment,

which is usually where we notice our biases. We're like, oh, I have an opinion about that. It's like, why do I have such a strong opinion about that? Yeah, I mean, it's easier said than done, but I think the opportunity is to trade our righteousness for curiosity and does take courage for sure. I want to circle back on this notion of men as competent caregivers as a way to talk about where women play a part in defining masculinity. Because I do believe, I have two things that popped into my head when we were talking about men as competent caregivers.

First was an experience, I was in a corporate boardroom with mostly men, and they were talking about how one of the men's wife had gone out of town and he was basically talking about the way I saw it. My judgment was being a bumbling idiot. Like he didn't know how to care for where things were, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, you know what? This isn't cute. It's no longer cute to me when men don't know how to be a parent. Like, that's my judgment. But then simultaneously, I can absolutely relate. And I remember a friend giving me the advice early on in my daughter's life of let your husband do things

and do it his way. Don't assume that your way of changing the diaper or your way of feeding her or putting her to bed or bathing her or any of the quote, unquote, right way. And I see how often we as women hold ourselves to this standard, but then hold everybody else to the same standard. And we're making it next to impossible for our partners to be seen or even build the confidence of being competent caregivers. So all that to say, how do

we as women participate using this as an example in redefining masculinity and seeing men as competent caregivers? There's so much there, Nicole. Thanks for what you're sharing. A couple thoughts come up for me. One is, you know what? I didn't know how to change a diaper either. I bumbled my way through parenting. There were some things that came somewhat instinctually to me, like breastfeeding and giving birth itself, and men don't have that experience. So I feel grateful that that nature facilitated me knowing what to do in those moments. But the majority of the caring nature didn't do it. I just had to figure it out. Right. And I figured it out with the support of my mother, my sister, my friends, my colleagues who were like, Hey dude, your milk is leaking through your shirt. Like, you know, whatever that is. So men have to learn the same way, right? They have to learn by doing it. They have to learn

by getting feedback. They have to learn by somebody saying, Hey, here's a way that you can French braid your daughter's hair. Right. Cause who knows how to do that? Nobody does. So I think that there's just a lot of work that can come with understanding that. But the other thing you're naming, and it's super powerful, and I bet it comes up a lot on your podcast, is feminine perfectionism, right? So perfectionism, Dr. Brene Brown, who's a mentor of mine, says it this way. Perfectionism is the lie that we Brown, who's a mentor of mine, says it this way. Perfectionism is the lie that we tell ourselves, that if we get everything just right, it will all work out. And there's a particular kind of feminism that I think is the motherhood myth.

I mean, it's not feminism, perfectionism, excuse me, that fits for me in the motherhood myth. And I would even go one step further to say it's the white feminine motherhood myth. And I say that because in talking with my women colleagues who are women of color, they have not embedded the same perfectionism necessarily that I feel I've embedded as a white woman, which is that I've got to be a certain way in order to be enough. And the story I tell myself that I have to, that I fall into the trap of comparative shame, shaming, and find myself inadequate. So that work is also deeply personal. So what that means is how, what story am I telling myself about the clothes my children wear,

the way that they wear their bib, the foods that they eat, the way I look that is about an unhealthy ideal of striving for perfectionism, when really it is much more healthy for me to embrace the notion that I am enough, that it's good enough, that my children are healthy enough, that they're getting healthy enough food, et cetera. And so I think that that work is available to us. And again, I have like a funny story about this. So my father was an architect and he, one of his, he didn't ever have any money. And one of his gifts one Christmas was he made us all homemade gingerbread houses that were architectural design, like they

were gorgeous. And so roll forward many years later, my children are young and they go to a cool private school that has a high volunteer requirement. I'm hustling for doing it all myself. And I'm supposed to bring a gingerbread house. So I, I effort for days to build a gingerbread cathedral. This is after work I'm cooking. I'm, I'm, you know, I've got gummy bears in the pews. Like it's a work of art. I'm so excited. I'm supposed to take it the next day. I go to bed at like 1130 at night, having put the final thing on this gingerbread cathedral. And I wake up and the thing has collapsed. I'm not an architect, so my gingerbread house making skills are limited.

And I just fall apart. It's six o'clock in the morning. I'm like, we have no gingerbread house. I'm just, what am I going to do? And my husband at the time, my kid's dad, was like, what is going on with you? They said, bring a gingerbread house. I'm just, what am I going to do? And my husband at the time, my kid's dad was like, what is going on with you? They said, bring a gingerbread house. They sell them at Safeway, right? Can we just go buy Safeway for $7.99 and buy the thing? And I'm like, good point, right? But that was me. I'm going to win the Mother of the Year award by not only bringing

the adequate enough gingerbread house, I'm going to bring the best gingerbread house that has ever been seen on the grounds of our school, which is ridiculous. So then when it falls apart and it doesn't happen, I feel inadequate. And no one did that to me. I did that to me. I shouldn't say no one did it. Society tells me a lot about what good looks like, and I buy into it, which sets me up for a perfectionistic journey. So I think that there's a lot available to us as mothers, as caregivers, and as workers to say, hey, how can I get my head around this idea that I'm enough, that we're enough, and that he, my partner, is also enough?

So you're absolutely right. Perfectionism comes up a lot on the podcast and in my work. My focus is on confidence. And I often say that perfectionism is the enemy of confidence. I read that in a book, I think, Katty K., many, many, many years ago. And what's really interesting, as you said, is that we believe we'll get what we want. We'll get the love we desire and all the things, the acceptance through perfectionism, but the opposite really ends up being true. I found that perfectionism

creates a lot of distance in our relationships because everybody, including ourselves, feels we can't measure up. And it's just too painful. And like with your story, it's exhausting, right? For you and for the people around you where you're like, let's just go to Safeway and get the gingerbread house. Like that's the easier route here. What are we doing to ourselves and each other? Okay. So any other examples where in addition to the men as competent caregivers, that women can help redefine masculinity in a way that serves all of us, regardless of gender? Yes, absolutely. One that comes up for me is emotional caretaking. So one of the things that's played out in my family, but I've also seen it play out in the workplace a lot, is that women over-index, I'm carrying the burden of the

emotional landscape. And yet the paradox there for me is that in the world of work, when I look at my client suite, who are mostly CEOs and senior leaders, I would say 90% of them are men because they do still dominate the C-suite. But one of the biggest calls to coaching is that men have been given feedback that they need to be stronger at social and emotional intelligence, right? They haven't learned those skills. And that's related to a lot of inherited notions about emotionality and emotion itself that we inherit from a young age. Jennifer Bosom's University of

Florida researcher who says it this way. She says the band of masculinity in terms of emotional expression for men is very, very narrow. Whereas for women, it's much broader. Women are given a lot more room for emotional expression, except for one, which is anger. And men are given the opposite message as children, which is that you can express anger, but don't express any other emotion. So what happens is I think the dynamic that it sets us up for at work is that women become the ones who carry all the water of the emotional landscape, which further stunts men's capacity to actually be emotionally fluent, recognizing, knowing, and naming their own emotion and the emotion of others in a way that's productive. And I'm not talking about emotionality. I'm

talking about emotional intelligence. So one of the things that I think we as women can do is to stop that, to stop carrying the water at home for our sons, our husbands, our brothers, our uncles, from their emotional fluency. Let's give them the space and the room to develop their own emotional competence, which usually they're going to need to do through their friendships with other men. And they can do it for us too, but we don't have to be the ones that are coming up with every emotional insight. We're not the only ones that talk about the hard things or show love, right? Let's give them that space.

At work, I think it comes up with recognizing and acknowledging that men too have emotional contributions in the world of work and that we can bear witness to that without doing that work for them. And if I think of an example, I'm reminded of a client many years ago who had a, he was a CEO of a small company and he he blew it in an all-company presentation. He said something that caused offense to 100 employees, basically. And he said it born out of his own anxiety and fear. He didn't realize he had done this until after the call. And after the call, a bunch of employee complaints came in.

People were disappointed in this presentation he had gave. They felt that it was contributing to the anxiety of the company that was going through a big change. One of his senior leaders, who was a woman, they were having a meeting. And they were internalizing this feedback, the whole executive team. And she said to him, what does this mean to you that this happened? And he went on and described how he was feeling, which was like, yep, I said this thing. At first he was defensive. Then he backed off and he's like, yep, I didn't really need to say that. And then she said, what do you think

happens next? Now that was masterful because she let him sit in that stew of his own acknowledgement, which was basically like, I need to make a repair. I need to own what I said as being driven of my own insecurity. I need to come up with a brave way to say that to the employee base. She didn't solve that problem for him. She didn't say, well, what we can do is write a memo or what if the rest of us cover by telling our teams. She didn't say any of that. She just said in empathy with him, this is a bummer. Feels hard to make a mistake like that. It has had an impact on the whole organization's culture.

We're here to support you. What do you want to do next? And in that space, he had to figure it out. And he did. So she was supporting him, but not doing the work for him. Does that make sense? It is a masterful example. I wish I could have been in the room to witness that because I do think

many of us, myself included, would have defaulted to trying to fill the gaps, solve the problems, and supply that missing emotional intelligence. And we do enable, unintentionally, I think, people not stepping into the power of the feminine that lies within all of us. Yes, absolutely. I love that. I love the word enabling. Mo, I have at least 333 more questions that we cannot get to, which I am just devastated about, but thank you. We got to do it again. This has been so fun. I'm in. I'm in. So MoMentum.com is the website. It's M-O-E as in Mo's name and then Mentum.com. And then you can also find and follow Mo on LinkedIn, Mo Carrick, and we'll put all the links and every possible way to find Mo in show notes because I know you, like me, are going to want to learn more. Okay, Mo, thank you. This was a fascinating conversation. Thank you. Okay. I came into this episode feeling like I was

wading into unfamiliar territory, but now I feel, and I hope you do too, that we've just scratched the surface of something incredibly important. The reality is we are all impacted by the definitions and expectations we assign to masculinity and femininity, especially at work. And evolving these definitions is crucial if we want workplaces where everyone thrives. And because we all have masculine and feminine energies within us, we all have a part to play in defining and valuing both of them. So let's ask ourselves, what role do you get to play in shaping a workplace that values all forms of leadership and energy, masculine, feminine, and everything in between? And as Mo says, wherever we go, we go together. Because bringing your full and best self to the work you do, well, that is woman's work.