This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - You Won’t Just Cry When They Die with Liz Deacle | 404

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Starting point is 00:01:00 If you love the show, the best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This Is Woman's Work podcast. We're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And today we're talking about something every single one of us will experience. And none of us could ever actually be prepared for. And that's grief. Not the neat, palatable, ver. not the version where you cry, take some time, process, heal, and move on. Not the version that's all about casseroles and take your time platitudes. Because that version, it's a lie. Or at the very least, it's not the complete truth. On this episode, we're talking about the real version, the kind of grief that doesn't just break your heart. It's the kind that acknowledges that you don't just lose someone you love. You lose the version of you that existed when they were here. For something that every single one of us will go through, we are wildly unprepared for how disorienting, physical, and all-consuming it actually can be. So I'm not going to pretend to know a lot

Starting point is 00:02:22 about grief. I don't. But I do know someone who has had to live it and who has been willing to write and share in a way that is honest, raw, and somehow still sometimes funny, that somehow makes you feel less alone. Our guest writes, emails that have made me laugh so hard that I've literally snorted coffee out of my nose. She co-hosts the podcast. It's a drama with her husband, Brian, who I feel like I know well enough to call Brite, even though I have never met or talked to him. Where they talk about travel and family and life, and somewhere along the way, I've become fully convinced that she and I should live down the street from each other so that we can sit on the porch in stretchy pants, drink coffee

Starting point is 00:03:05 or something stronger and laugh until we pee. Because if you're not leaking urine, are you really having any fun? But since she lives all the way across the world, I've settled over time for waiting on and devouring every email she's sent. And she's sent a lot of them. And then her mom died.

Starting point is 00:03:24 And then just months later, her dad died and everything shifted. Naturally, her emails stopped for a while. And when they come now, they're different. still her, still honest, still real, but now instead of laughing until I cry, I sometimes cry and then laugh. We're talking about the kind of sharing that doesn't try to clean things up or make them comfortable for everyone else because that's what we tend to do with grief. We rush it, we label it, we try to fix it. Or worse, we expect people to heal on some invisible timeline like grief is a project with a deadline. So today, we're not doing any of that. We're not tidying this up or not rushing through it.

Starting point is 00:04:06 We're not pretending that there is a right way to grieve or a clean way to come out the other side. We're telling the truth and we're doing it with somebody who I adore. Liz Deacall is the author of You Won't Just Cry When They Die, a book she wrote after losing both of her parents where she discovered that grief doesn't just break your heart. It pulls apart your body, your identity, and your sense of self. She lives in New Zealand and is currently traveling full time with her family on a healing journey, asking the question that so many of us will eventually face.

Starting point is 00:04:41 What comes next? Liz, welcome back to the show, and let's start with some of that real stuff. What might we know or expect about grief and where do we have absolutely no idea? Well, first of all, Nicole, we said off camera before we started, okay, we'll try not to cry. And then as you were talking there, I just thought, don't cry, Liz, don't cry, I can feel it. I can feel those tears welling up. Oh, thank you for such a beautiful, beautiful intro, and it's an honor to be a guest sitting opposite you here on your show. My answer to what do we know about grief, we know that you're going to get sad, you're going to

Starting point is 00:05:26 really miss them and you're going to cry. And that was speaking, from my own experience, that's what I expected would happen. I thought, I'm going to get really sad. There's going to be lots of tears. What we don't know about grief is the way it hits you so hard like a sledgehammer. You can't possibly see it coming. And the thing that I didn't know about grief is how it changes you, how it rips open. and reaches inside and pulls everything out and puts it on the floor and goes, there you go, who are you now then? Who are you now?

Starting point is 00:06:11 And that's what I didn't expect from grief. I didn't know that that existed. And that's why I want to share this message to make other women know that that is completely normal when that happens. I think one of the things that we often do that is such a disservice to ourselves into people that we love that are grieving is we think that there's this linear process, right, that every day is going to get just a little bit better. And from what I've heard, that is not how it works.

Starting point is 00:06:45 Some days are better and some days are way worse than even before. And you never know and it's unexpected. Is that true? Or do you feel like you are making some sort of progress isn't the right word, but like that you're moving forward in some way. Again, it's the confusing thing because we are told online, you know, that when you Google it and I did, the minute my mom died and I fell apart, I was like, what the hell is this? Who am I?

Starting point is 00:07:15 What, why can't I function? And I googled, how long does grief last? And I really thought, like you said, it was going to be a, well, by week one, you'll probably be crying a little bit less. And then by month two, you'll feel like this. and it just wasn't. And again, I want to be very respectful here because grief is such a, such a personal thing.

Starting point is 00:07:36 It's very, very personal and unique to the person that's experiencing it. And everyone will feel it differently. They will cope differently. They will handle it differently. But the thing I've discovered since writing the book and just talking to other people who are grieving is that underlying feeling of loss and hurt, and despair is universal.

Starting point is 00:08:01 It's the same all over. How you cope with that is your journey in answer to your, does it get better? Yes, it does. There are days where you think, oh, I haven't cried today or I didn't cry until three o'clock today. That's good. I've made progress. I can talk to Nicole and I didn't cry when she was saying all that intro.

Starting point is 00:08:19 I must be getting better. I'm getting stronger. That's good. And then there are days that you just sit and just sob and that's fine too. You said something that I think is so important. Their grief is universal. It's also individual. It feels like a paradox, right?

Starting point is 00:08:36 If it's individual, are we all going to experience it the same? But then when you talk to people who experience grief, there are definitely commonalities. My question, because you lost both of your parents, is I think sometimes we think grief is in direct relationship to how much we loved or cared or liked the person that we're grieving. I know you were exceptionally close with your mom. Again, this is a personal thing.

Starting point is 00:09:08 I'm not sure you can answer it. But if we had difficult or complex relationships, do you still think grief is the same? We have these different relationships, this different level of love and care. And yet I know people who have lost parents that they didn't talk to or they weren't pretty, particularly close with, and they've talked about how grief still felt like that sledgehammer,

Starting point is 00:09:32 and it still caught them off guard, and they still struggled way more than they ever thought that they would. I guess my question is, how does it differ? Does it? That's a really good question, and yes, it does differ. I'll give you a personal example that I was very, very, very close to my mom. She lived just down the road. She was 19 years older than me. We were best friends. She was, she was my world. My dad left when I was 18. I still loved him, but we had a very difficult relationship. He had his own problems. He was, he drank. There was things going on there. However, I still loved him. He was my father. My answer to your question is, I miss being scared about my dad. I miss not wanting to call him because I'm scared of what he'll say to me.

Starting point is 00:10:24 I miss when you lose someone, you lose a part of you that you've known all your life. All I've ever known is, oh, should I give my dad a ring or will he have had a drink? Like, you know, shall I go and see my dad? I'm in England. I should I should go and see my dad. That's not there anymore. It's not there anymore. So, of course, talking from my mum's point of view, I miss her.

Starting point is 00:10:48 I miss my mom. But my dad, who I did have a very difficult relationship with, who I would go for years without speaking to, I miss those questions. I miss the woman I was that had a dad that was awkward and hard to communicate with, because I don't have that anymore. You don't have that anymore.

Starting point is 00:11:09 And yeah, I don't know the answer, but I do know that it goes back to this feeling of, you are a different person. They're not in your life anymore. You're not who you were two years ago or a year ago or six months ago. You're just not. And that also is put on your shoulders of like, well, if I'm not that woman then, and I don't feel like that anymore. Now what do I? Who am I now then? Looking back on your journey so far, where have you felt the strongest or the proudest? And I asked the question because I think we think being strong is shoving it down, setting it aside, not talking about it, moving on. I'm going to put that in air quotes, moving on. I think that's what we often

Starting point is 00:11:58 associate being strong with. My guess, though, is as somebody who's been living with grief for, you know, well over a year now, that there might be other experiences or times where you look back and that felt like strength or that made you proud of a choice that you made or an action that you took or that you didn't, right? So based on your experience, where have you felt strong? Where have you felt proud? Well, for a start, I feel proud of myself for coming on this podcast with you and not sitting here bawling. Right. I'm still through it. I haven't cried yet. So I'm proud of that because I really thought that I would just fall apart. So I'm proud of myself for being able to talk to you. and I thank you for that.

Starting point is 00:12:45 I mean, my mum died two years in April. You know, and this only happened a couple of weeks ago. We're in Canada as a family. I was walking with my daughter. She's 21. And she started talking about my mum, her grandma. And she fell apart. And she said, I'm sorry for crying.

Starting point is 00:13:00 I don't want to upset you. And I had this inner strength, and I don't know where it came from. It was no doubt time. But putting it onto her and seeing her hurt and hurt. and her grief and being able to hold her and say, I'm here for you. And I thought, who was saying this? Who am I there for? I haven't been there for anyone for the last 18 months.

Starting point is 00:13:26 And all of a sudden seeing her, her vulnerability, I miss my grandma and being able to say, I'm here for you. And that was a moment that I thought, oh, Liz, well done, well done. for not standing there and saying, yeah, but I've lost my mom and I'm really crying and I'm, you know, well done. And yeah, it was a moment, Nicole. It was a real moment. Is grief better shared as in that experience or, and I have to imagine there are times where you want to tell everyone to fuck off and then, you know, feeling connected, wanting to feel disconnected? I have to imagine there's no one right answer, but is grief better shared? Yes, 100%.

Starting point is 00:14:16 And the other thing that's better shared is when you put your hand up and you say, I am really fucking struggling. I need help. I'm not doing okay. That is what helps. That's what we should be doing more of. Because again, we have this thing of, it's been three months now. You know, it's been six months.

Starting point is 00:14:37 It's been a year now. come on, you know what, but see the good things in life. Look what you've got. It's all that that is put on top of you. And yeah, being able to share and say, no, I'm not. I'm not doing okay. I've heard this from several people now. I kind of get it. And it also hurts my heart so much. I even did it in our conversation already is when you care about somebody who's grieving, you want to be there. You want to say the right things. You want to support.

Starting point is 00:15:10 You want them to know that they're loved and that you're there if they need you. And at the same time, if you're not the person grieving, life does move on. And I have to imagine for the person grieving, it's like how, like how are people moving on with their lives? So I have several questions in there.

Starting point is 00:15:30 But my first one is, how do we best continue to be there and support people, who are grieving when our life does move on. So the example is I said, you know, it's been over a year. And the reality is it's been two years. And I've thought of you so often. I read your emails.

Starting point is 00:15:49 I've reached out to let you know that I'm thinking of you. And my life moved on. And what has been, I'm sure, a very clear timeline on your part, hasn't on mine because I was in my life. right? And so how do we continue to show up and be there when people need us without putting a timeline or get over it or anything on them while also acknowledging that we are living our lives and life is continuing on even though the person grieving can't wrap their head around that. Is my question making any sense at all? It's making a lot of sense. And as someone who has been through

Starting point is 00:16:34 a major loss, I still feel when I meet people who say, oh, I'd lost someone a couple of months ago, I still feel almost awkward. I feel like I know what they want to hear. I know what I should say, but I feel awkward saying it. And I think that's because as a society, we just don't do it. We don't talk about it. We're like, oh, oh, you know, my condolences, my deepest sympathies. You don't want to say the wrong thing, but, and I want to thank you. I want to thank you. I want to thank you. You're perfect. You're absolutely perfect. You sent replies to my emails. One line sometimes. It was like, oh, that's, that's, that's beautiful. You don't, you don't know what that meant, you know. And when I first lost my mom, I had a friend in New Zealand. I've still got a

Starting point is 00:17:22 friend in New Zealand. And she would send me every other day a heart, you know, like a red emoji hard in a messenger. No words, no nothing, just this heart. And it kept going. She kept going with it for about a year. And I was thinking, what a fantastic. I don't know what saying everyone needs to do this, but I think the simple things, just someone acknowledging you. I mean, of course, my hero, my person who got me through this was my husband Brian. And that was by listening, just being there, just listening. You don't have to. to say anything, a heart message of, I wish I had the answers for you, but I'm going, you know, I'm still, I feel the same as you. I'm like, well, I know how it feels, but it's hard to know

Starting point is 00:18:12 what to say to someone. So I think just being there, like, know that person you're there, know you're there is enough. It really is. Square notes that in hospitality, efficiency is everything. That's why their system lets you take payments, track sales, handle inventory, manage staff, and invoices and keep up with finances all in one place. Fly through orders with zero mistakes. Get the data you need and keep everything working together. So you're ready for whatever's next. Learn more about their customizable plans at squareup.com.

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Starting point is 00:19:35 One turbocharged horsepower engine gives it a fun to drive edge. The refined Tiguan, you deserve more style. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SuvW, German engineered for all. On that note, are there wrong things to say? You know, we're filled with platitudes and things that, you know, we sort of fall back on without thinking. Were there any things that people said that you just were like, take it and shove it up your ass? I'm not interested in, you know, and I know people's intentions are wonderful,

Starting point is 00:20:13 but are there anything that you should avoid based on your experience? Yeah. And again, people, what you've got to remember, I wrote about this in the book, what you've got to remember when I tell you this is they're not saying it to hurt you. They're not saying it to be a clever ass. They're saying it because they don't know what else to say and they think this will help you. So first of all, a caveat to anyone who's ever said this to me or anyone that ever says, to anyone that's grieving. We know that you're coming from a place of kindness. This was never

Starting point is 00:20:42 meant to be. But when people say, think of all the good things you've got in your life, look around you and appreciate what you have now. Like, you know what? That one hurts. Because do you not think that we think every single day, thank God I've got a daughter, thank God my son is thank God I'm married to this man, thank God I've got, of course, we think that every single minute of the day. And not only that, we dread losing those people. That's the other thing that no one tells you about grief. If you go through a very quick losing someone quickly, as in with my mum, six months, she was having a haircut, phoning me, I've had this new haircut, six months later, she's gone. When you go through something like that, all of a sudden, you start to look at everyone

Starting point is 00:21:27 else around you and think, when are they going to die? Please don't leave me. Please don't. What's the matter? Why are you coughing like that? Why are you breathing like that? What's the matter? You know, are you ill? It's horrible. It's absolutely horrible. So we're always thinking, thank God we've got these people in our life. And the other thing is, I don't actually think anyone has said this to me. I've heard other people say it, but it's almost like, it's been a year now. You know, it's been a year now. You must be feeling better. Yeah, I will reiterate what you said is I do think most people are well-intentioned. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:22:04 And I can speak for myself. I want to be helpful. And I know that there isn't anything that I can say that will eliminate or lessen the grief. And in the desire to be helpful, I would want somebody to say, that is not helpful or move on with something else.

Starting point is 00:22:22 Or, you know what I mean? Like, it's hard to know. Okay, so you have said in the book and here today that grief basically, takes the person that you were and dismantles and changes it. And part of it is finding out who you are now. Any how to do that? How do we begin to put the pieces back together to form something different? We can't put the pieces back together to reform who we were before we lost this person. So how do we do that. And I just want to add to that as well, because something you said in the intro, Liz used to

Starting point is 00:23:02 write funny emails and, you know, now she writes sad emails that sometimes make me laugh. That's another thing that no one tells you about grief is, and again, as a woman, we feel it so so openly because we're used to having to go through this change, but no one tells you that you're not going to be the same person. She's gone. She's left. She's gone. That was actually a daughter and you're not a daughter anymore.

Starting point is 00:23:32 So now what? And I listen to your podcast all the time. And I listened to one particular podcast that a lady talked about spiritual nurturing, a spiritual health she talked about. And as she was talking, that podcast helped me so much because I thought the only way we can get through this. The only way we can move forward and rebuild who we are now is to trust and to listen to our inner self. Because inside of us is all the answers. There are no books and podcasts and all the things that are going to give us the answer to how we can be who are going to be in the next stage of life.

Starting point is 00:24:13 That comes from deep, deep, deep inside the choices we make, like your guess said, the hunches we have. And I think that is my personal experience is I'm trying to listen, get really quiet and listen and trust. And if you don't feel like you have to write a funny email or be funny or be strong, that's fine. I will say I believe you completely and I've experienced in your emails like you're still in there. I hope so. Yeah, no. So I completely understand that you're sewing yourself back together thread by thread. And I value so much the listen to yourself, trust your inner knowing.

Starting point is 00:25:09 You know, I think that is our greatest challenge of life. And it's interesting, you know, outside looking in, it changes you. and you're still fundamentally who you are, and that feels like a really weird paradox. The other thing as well, just one more thing that comes into it, is guilt. You can't be funny. Don't you dare write anything funny. You've just lost both your parents.

Starting point is 00:25:35 That's disrespectful. Don't do that. You've got this going on in the side of your mind. And again, it's about letting that happen, letting that voice happen, letting it disperse, letting it come and be. And then gently thinking, hang on a minute, no, I can do this. And it's trust, isn't it? It's, I hope that I know I'm never going to be the same.

Starting point is 00:25:59 We're never going to be the same, are we? Just like we're never the same woman we are before we give birth. We're never that, you know, we evolve and we layer and we're different. And I'm hoping that that's what's going to happen when I, when I, maybe one day I will sit here and think, look, who I am now, Nicole, you know. I'm this. But right now it just feels like little threads are being layered back on. Like, oh, I can do that. Oh, I can laugh about that. Oh, no, hang on a minute. Take that thread back off. No, no, that doesn't feel nice. Okay, now put this one back on. How does that feel? Does that feel okay?

Starting point is 00:26:37 It feels like that. It literally feels. I know it sounds corny, but it feels like you are threading yourself back together into this new version. Yeah. Okay. What does it mean to sit with somebody in their grief and in their pain? I don't know that we do that very well as a society. I don't know that we allow or hold space or sit with. We tend to want to fill silence. We tend to want to fix, speed up. How do we sit with people in their grief?

Starting point is 00:27:14 You know, there's people that I've witnessed throughout this journey. so far that are incredibly good at that. Again, your fellow guest said a trail angel and I thought, oh, it's like a grief angel. It's someone who knows. They just know what energy to give you, what to do. I don't think I'm the right person to ask for that because I don't think I'm very good at it. I'm too consumed in my own hurting that I didn't talk about it because, oh, no, that will make me cry. so maybe I'm not, I don't think I'm the right person to ask, but like looking from here from where I sit now and looking at how people are, they are people that just listen. They don't give answers. I remember listening to this podcast years ago and it said about the art of a conversation. And they said, when you listen to someone having a conversation with you, ask yourself this question. Is this a help me conversation? Is this a hear me conversation? Or is this a hold me conversation?

Starting point is 00:28:16 And when people are in their grieving, that deep grief, it is always either a hear me or a hold me. It's they don't need help. They don't need answers. They don't need you to say, oh, it's going to be okay. You'll get through it. They don't need that. We don't need that. We just need to have someone listen and hear us.

Starting point is 00:28:36 And if you're really, really lucky, hold you. Yeah. Great answer. Sorry. Right. I read something earlier today, ironically, the universe, there's no accidents. It came across my desk from Nora McInerney, who has lost her husband. And she said something to the effect of death isn't the end of a relationship. And what she's talking about, something called wind phones, where you can go to a phone and basically leave a message for somebody who's passed and it goes out to the wind. right, so they can hear it. But my question is around this idea that it isn't the end of a relationship. I would venture, I guess you still talk to your mom all the time and probably listen for her to. So share with us a little bit about that I have to imagine that provides some comfort, but I also have to imagine that can be really, really painful at times to how do you carry forward the relationship due? you, does it help, does it hurt? What are you finding? I love Nora, by the way. She is one of those trail angels out there that's flying the flag for this. She's fantastic. Personally, I never,

Starting point is 00:30:01 ever stop speaking to my mum, ever. She speaks to me all the time. I can hear her voice all the time. And she's always right, you know? She never was right in real life. I always argue with no, mom, you don't know what you're talking about, but for some reason now, this, this dead version of my mum is like this massive angel that's always right and speaks to me. It's fantastic. Yeah, Nicole, it's whatever helps you. It's whatever helps you personally. I haven't yet been brave enough to go through. Like my brother said to me, oh, do you ever read mum's messages? Like, have you ever gone back through Messenger? It's like, no way can I do that.

Starting point is 00:30:46 I can't do it. I can't look at that. I can't do that. But what I can do is nurture this relationship. And like, I'm not actually joking when I say. She's like this goddess now. It's like this, she knows all the answers. Now, whether that's mum speaking or whether that's me or the universe or God, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:31:09 But that is such a help. It is such a help. And to trust that as well and not think, I'm crazy. I'm schizophrenic. What's wrong with me? What am I doing in this room? Talking to my mum, crying to my mum. What am I doing?

Starting point is 00:31:21 No, that's normal. That is absolutely normal. And it is so, so helpful. And it's, as a woman, it's, I can feel her. I can feel her going, come on, you know this. You've got this. You know you can do this. I can feel it, Nicole.

Starting point is 00:31:36 And it's, it's, it's, that. That feels magical. For someone who right now, if you're listening to this and you have just lost, just lost someone, like literally just lost someone, please know that that is one of the beautiful things that comes out of this, this feeling of, I am not alone. I have got them. I've got her. She's right here in me. She's in my blood. I've got her. She's never going to leave. It's a very, very, very, very special thing to be able to draw on in times of need. I will also add it provides some peace for me. I'm sure as many moms do, I've said to JJ, you know, I'll always be with you. And I genuinely mean that. And knowing based on your experience that that gets to be true is very cool. So thank you. You said you're going to cry. Now I'm crying. Okay, my last question is around the word healing. I think again, grief often gets talked about as if there is a time where it ends. You know, the healing journey is over.

Starting point is 00:32:47 And it's thrown around pretty loosely, I think. So what would you say to the person who is listening going, I'm not healing fast enough, I'm not healing right, what is healing supposed to look like, who's Googling how long does grief last, what would you say to them? And how can we be more gentle with ourselves and each other in the person? process. Healing, to me, I believed that healing meant getting back to who you were before your

Starting point is 00:33:17 mum and dad died. Getting back to the person you were, you know they're not here anymore, but you're all right, you're okay, back to who you were. I thought that's what healing meant. If you wait for that healing, you'll never find it. And I think acknowledging that as soon as possible really, really helps. I think every single tear you cry, every conversation, every word that you write, every this, every this that happens helps you on your healing journey. It is like, I don't think healing is giving. I think it is shedding. I think it is releasing. I think it is letting happen. without shame, without guilt, without embarrassment, that is healing. It's accepting that, like that with my daughter, being able to put my arms around her and say,

Starting point is 00:34:18 I'm here for you, that's also healing. It's exactly like you said, it's being so gentle with yourself, so, so gentle and so patient and so kind. And I know that we hear that a lot in this circle of it. Be gentle. Be kind to yourself, love yourself. It doesn't mean that. It just means let it, let it, let it happen. Everything that you're doing is one step closer to your feeling, that breath out. And I made it. I made it. I was able to sign up for this podcast. I was able to write this book. I was able to put my arms around my daughter. It's one step along the line of maybe this new life without them.

Starting point is 00:35:12 But yeah. I think it is a different version of what I tell myself that life is ultimately about, which is one foot in front of the other toward what matters most. And as you grow and grieve, what matters most may change or evolve. but society in the world wants to tell us about big leaps and timelines. And in my experience, everything is always just one foot in front of the other, even the smallest step. So, Liz, thank you for being here today, for sharing your grief with us and for writing

Starting point is 00:35:53 this book. Listener, if you're looking for some support, something to feel helped or held or heard, I would encourage you to get the book. You won't just cry when they die. It's available on Amazon, or you can go to elizabethdecal.com, where she has the audio book as well. We're going to put the links of all the ways to find

Starting point is 00:36:14 and follow Liz in show notes, including it's a drama, her podcast. And please be sure to do that. I will tell you over the years that I have been connected with Liz. It has been a wonderful, bright spot, but then also where I felt the most connected and heard to somebody I've never even met before. So Liz, thank you.

Starting point is 00:36:34 I adore you. Thank you. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you so much. And likewise, thank you for what you're doing in this world. Thank you for being the woman you are. And thank you for having me on this show. Always my pleasure.

Starting point is 00:36:47 All right, friend, grief doesn't ask you for permission. It doesn't follow a timeline. It does not care how strong, capable, or put together you are. It will take what it takes and it will change you. But maybe the goal was never to go back to who you were before. Maybe the work is to gently, imperfectly, and honestly live as the version of you that is still unfolding. Not rushed, not fixed, not healed, just real. So if you're in it right now, the fog, the anger, the exhaustion, the moments that make absolutely no sense.

Starting point is 00:37:22 Friend, there is nothing about it that is wrong. Not your pace, not your process, and certainly not you. As Liz says, you don't just cry when they die, you fall apart. And then blindly, achingly stitch yourself back together thread by thread. And all of that is woman's work. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country? Join business leaders, policymakers, and influencers for CG's national series on the Canadian

Starting point is 00:38:08 Canadian standard of living, productivity and innovation. Learn what's driving Canada's productivity decline and discover actionable solutions to reverse it. Grownups, if there's a child in your life who is interested in, curious about, or fascinated by people and places from history, then my podcast, the past and the curious, might just be a hit in your home. From the invention of microscopes to world-traveling dogs to fashions of the 1890s, Gold Rush Ghost Towns, and audiences going wild for walking competitions, we've got a little bit of it all. Hosted by Children's Author and Museum educator Mick Sullivan, that's me, the show is fun, funny,

Starting point is 00:38:50 engaging, honest, and beloved by kids and parents alike. Find the past and the curious at all the usual podcast places.

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil - You Won’t Just Cry When They Die with Liz Deacle | 404

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