This Past Weekend - #603 - Mariana van Zeller

Starting point is 00:00:00 Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Roger Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fairs, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday anywhere along the Go Network. And the weekday group passes offer the same weekday travel flexibility across the network, starting at $30 for two people and up to $60 for a group of five. Buy your online go pass ahead of the show at go-transit.com slash tickets. Today's guest is an Emmy award-winning journalist for National Geographic. She's known for her investigative reporting where she goes and delves into some of the deepest, most dangerous black markets in the world. Cartels, scammers, extremist groups, trafficking, she has been there for it all. We're going to learn a lot today, and I'm already thankful for her time.

Starting point is 00:00:54 Today's guest is Mariana Van Zeller. Mariana Van Zeller, good to see you today. Great seeing you, too. Yeah, I appreciate you coming in. Congrats on your Emmys. Thank you so much. Yeah, it was a good night. How many have you guys won now?

Starting point is 00:01:23 We won nine. But you know what's interesting. I was nominated for, I've been a journalist for over 20 years, and throughout my career I've been nominated. I think I had one of the highest nominations with no wins ever, which was like 39 nominate, or even more. It was like 40-something. Before you got your first one?

Starting point is 00:01:39 The first one was last year. And I couldn't believe when they finally called our name, the name of the team, and we all went on stage. That first one was really sweet. That was last year. But that's crazy. That many times you had to go and listen. And wait and be the loser.

Starting point is 00:01:53 Yes, many, many times. But I guess that's also the part of the trenches of like the entertainment industry that people don't think about. There's, like, a lot of times people may feel like we're doing good work or we're doing this or really any industry, but there's somebody before you that had been doing good work that had put their time in. And even it takes a while to get even through like the award systems, you know?

Starting point is 00:02:13 Absolutely. And also, it's just, it's whatever, it's a prize is a prize. It's not the most important thing in the world. But we, the show we do traffic that was nominated this past season for 29 Emmys, it's a really hard show to put together. It's one of the, I think, I always. say it's the most challenging show in the world to put together. We're asking people, have you watched, do you know what the show is about? Yeah. We're trying to get people who

Starting point is 00:02:35 don't want to talk to talk to us and to open up their lives and shows their crazy underworld and their hidden corners of the world. And so it's really, really hard. And so to finally be recognized, it's for the whole team, it's just that, that's what was special. Okay, what we're doing, we're doing something right here. I mean, yeah. Yeah, because usually, I mean, yeah, tickling was the old school way to get people to just tell you everything, you know? But you really, you come across some universes where I think if you tickled, it'd be a little bit obtuse. I'm not sure if they'd like that. I know. It's like it always was kind of like a last resort. On this season of traffic, do you guys have some, it looks like, I've just seen the trailer, I've seen different clips.

Starting point is 00:03:15 You guys have, I know you go to investigate into militias, brides for sale. Yeah, the trafficking of brides. Rehab scams, which was a really interesting one. I've been covering the opiate crisis. But we also covered sort of the dark side of trying to get clean, which are these rehab scams that exist all over the country. What's one of the episodes from the new season, this season five, that really kind of you got kind of attached to, do you feel like? It's always a hard question because we spent so much time in each one. I'd say, I mean, Cartel, USA is the first one for a good reason. I think it was really chilling what we discovered. We start, you know, I've been covering the cartel for many years now and have traveled. I've

Starting point is 00:03:56 extensively throughout Mexico, namely, Sinaloa, I've reported more from Sinaloa Mexico than anywhere else in the world, and have, you know, reported on the drug trade as well. But I'd, and I'd seen the presence of the cartel here in U.S., which is why I decided I wanted to do a story about what exactly that means, how much of it is it here, how widespread it is, and what's that mean for our for for the country but like in small little city towns they're operating in many cases and have these distribution drug distribution centers out of small town america we interviewed a couple of investigators from the georgia bureau of investigations who were uh were called because there had been a murder gruesome murder of a woman who'd been tortured there her fingers

Starting point is 00:04:44 were cut off by pliers one by one in a bathtub she was basically killed while still conscious and alive with a chainsaw. And this is because her cartel boss, she was a drug runner, and her boss who was in prison, by the way, all ordered through prison on a cell phone. He was giving the orders on a cell phone live, and he believed that she had stolen some drugs. Turns out it was not the case. But this was in small town, Georgia, like the last place you'd expect to see this kind of violence.

Starting point is 00:05:13 But it's starting to come here as well. So they use, and I have seen this throughout my reporting, and whether we're talking about sort of smaller sheriff offices to border patrol. Corruption is actually here. And it's a big tool that they use to be able to continue their operations. And then go ahead. Yeah. No, well, corruption. I mean, I think we're at a space now where, to most people, it feels like everything seems very corrupt, right? Are we allowing this drug trafficking? Are we allowing these cartels to work in our country? I think we're just combating it the wrong way. The war on drugs has been a massive failure. I mean, billions of dollars spent for no returns. I mean, we're seeing,

Starting point is 00:05:52 it's getting worse and worse. I think last year was the first year where the numbers didn't go up, but it's been going progressively up. I mean, in the last, I think, since 2000, one million people have died from the opiate crisis. Yeah. You know, so I just don't think we are doing what we're supposed to be doing. We're not doing the right thing. We're not using the right tools to combat drug trafficking. And, you know, the cartel benefits from drug trafficking. It's their breadwinning industry. Yeah, it's their big business. Is their big business? Like, what drugs are the cartels bringing in, I guess? That's where I'm... Everything. I mean, fentanyl cocaine, meth. But also, I think one of the biggest misunderstandings that we, and was learning for me

Starting point is 00:06:34 reporting on this, was that a lot of these cartel operators are actually American. American-born, American race, don't even speak Spanish. One of the main guys that we featured in our episode is a guy called, that goes by the name of El Gringo. He was born in the United States, doesn't speak a word of Spanish, and he's a massive. He's sort of a wholesale distributor for the cartel. And he realized he could do it. He could distribute the drugs really well. He was really good with logistics.

Starting point is 00:07:00 And do you know how he distributes the drugs? They come in through Border Patrol. It's usually always, or 90% of the time, is official. ports of entry. So it's not going, you know, sneaking through the woods or something or tying it to like a deer and having them run over the border or whatever. Right. Right. Or little kids with backpacks. That happens as well, but most of it is official ports of entry. And then once it gets to the big cities and then gets distributed by guys like this who also operate of small town America, he's using actually commercial planes to where he puts the drugs inside suitcases and has people

Starting point is 00:07:37 like strippers, usually women that are more unassuming. And a lot of times strippers is what he told us. Wow. And you'd never think that, right? I was thinking trucks or vans full of drugs or the white vans full of drugs or something. No, it's actually in planes. A lot of times he says he uses Delta is his favorite airline. Delta is a great airline. I would say that. But I didn't know. I didn't know the skies were that friendly, you know. I mean, it could get hella friendly if somebody's shipping Molly up there, I feel like. So when you start to learn this information, what do you do with it? Like, I know you guys present it, right? Like you packaged it in one episode and you presented people. But how do you convince people to talk to us? How do you convince people to talk to us? But how do you convince them you're not going to turn them in?

Starting point is 00:08:24 Yeah, I think that's the hardest part of our job. It's always the most challenge. I mean, we spent months, sometimes even years, trying to convince people to talk to us. And, you know, there's no real benefit to them at first glance at least. I think for me, I've learned that it's three main things. It's ego. People like to boast.

Starting point is 00:08:41 And if you're the best counterfeiter in the world or the best guy at making fentanyl or smuggling guns or drugs, whatever it is, the best scammer, you want, sometimes your family doesn't even know what you do. We give them an opportunity with a mask and distorted voice to really brag about what they love. I mean, I've spoken to people. I'll never forget. We did an interview for season one, actually, which was with a guy, a Peruvian guy,

Starting point is 00:09:03 who makes these $100 bills in 50s that look exactly like the real thing. They're fake, but they're exactly like the real thing. And he'd spend days and days or nights, because during the day he was actually a taxi driver, nights and nights just perfecting the little creases and using, he used a certain powder that he was able to perfect, like everything so that it would taste,

Starting point is 00:09:25 it would look, I would taste, I don't think people are putting it in your mouth, but so that it would smell, feel, sound exactly like a real kind of doll. And you should see him talking about this. Like his eyes were like shining. He was so proud for being considered the best counterfeiter in in South. You are a sculpture. I mean you're like a money Michelangelo, I guess. And that way if you really did the best one ever. But they are actually their entrepreneurship and their creativity just never sees this to surprise me. It's pretty incredible. And then the other reason

Starting point is 00:09:59 I think is impunity in many of these places like Sina Loa, for example. There's just so much police corruption that they just don't see a downside to talking to a person, to me, to Nageo. Now the show is on its fifth seasons, so it's sort of established people trust us more. And then I think the third most important reason is a very human characteristic that we all share of wanting to be understood, right? When I approach people, I say, no matter who they are, I'm not here to judge you. I'm here because I really truly want to understand why you do what you do.

Starting point is 00:10:25 I want to understand your worlds. And really, I think that's sort of the last thing that gets them to decide whether it's a yes or no. I've gotten hundreds or thousands of noes. And that's the part that you don't see when you see the show, right? So it seems easy. But I think really is that that sort of human connection and the ability that we have to tell them, look, I just want to listen. Because I think listening and understanding is way more important than just judging. Yeah, I agree. And I think also when people are living something in secret, right, it's tough. I think living in secret is tough, no matter what it is.

Starting point is 00:11:00 Like if it's something that you're keeping from loved ones, if it's a reality, sometimes that you're keeping from yourself. Like I've done things in my life and I almost like compartmentalize them, so I don't have to feel them, you know, so I don't have to feel like I have done those things. And I think living in secret and not having somebody to share something with, I mean, it's just, it can get very painful over time. So yeah, having, I think, an outlet of just somebody to even talk to for a little bit,

Starting point is 00:11:28 about something that feels so shameful or dark or confusing to you can be really, really yeah, it must be just such a high when you're approaching like people who are I guess kind of underworld characters maybe. Yeah, that's what they are, black market operators, underworld characters, people who their whole lives have been trying to stay out of the limelight and, you know, hiding and doing illegal stuff where they don't want journalists poking around. And are you ever amazed? Do you ever meet someone and you were like,

Starting point is 00:11:59 I cannot believe this person is involved? Oh, my God, constantly. Seriously, all the time. And you think that after I've been covering black markets for 20 years, that you think that after some time I'd sort of have an idea of who's involved, it's not only, it's not only, you know, your neighbor that looks like a completely normal do, that's involved in some sort of illegal activity that you had no idea about. You're like a Mets fan or whatever, probably?

Starting point is 00:12:26 But that is also happening all around. I mean, I filmed episodes we did an episode about assassins that was just a couple of miles from my home in L.A. And I interviewed an assassin, a guy who's paid to kill, just a couple of miles in L.A., an undisclosed location, but in L.A., not far from my house. It's insane. And where did you, do you go alone? No, I go with my team, but no security. Usually people, usually I'm the only woman. You know, there's, we have some female members of our team, but on the majority of the cases,

Starting point is 00:12:59 it's just me and my camera team who are all male, producer, director. So we're six people usually, very often I'm the only woman, and it's never with security. That's the question we get asked a lot is do we travel with security. And I think that what security would do for us is completely counterproductive to our job. We're trying to convince people to trust us, to show them that. we respect them and if I show up with security and basically telling them I don't trust you and possibly I don't respect why should you trust me right yeah like I've thought about having security sometimes even just out in the world and I just keep shying away from it because I just

Starting point is 00:13:38 like I just don't like the energy of that but then also the world gets scary but I think in your place yeah you're coming with a bridge of like I want to be able to communicate yeah I'm going to put my cards on the table that I'm here in peace right when you pull up it on an assassin like Like, where do you meet them at? Where do they go? Yeah. So again, it's many months, sometimes years of trying to get, I've been wanting to do a story about assassins. It's sort of, of all the black markets, right? Yeah, this is a former police officer in South Africa. South Africa is one of the biggest countries in the world in terms of assassinations and assassination attempts and actual assassinations and people being killed. And you can hire an assassin in South Africa for like a thousand

Starting point is 00:14:16 dollars. And so we, and from L.A., from interviewing that assassin, we went to South Africa to see why was it this crazy world and what could we learn from that. And, and you were asking, yeah, like when you go to meeting an assassin, like is that? How did that, how did that get a meeting with him? Yeah. So in the case of the American assassin, for many years, I've been wanting to do that story. If you think of a black market, you think assassins is sort of the worst of the worst thing, right? Not easy, right? It's not as if you can go online and do a Google search for an assassin. Like, yeah, I need, yeah. Right. But I have a contact here in L.A. that I've done many stories with who really connects me to people in the underworld. He's a member of the underworld himself

Starting point is 00:14:59 and he's a really colorful character. I've done many stories with his help. And I contacted him and he said, look, I'm going to see what I can do. That's just an old Gavin Newsom. some joke. Sorry, and I shouldn't joke around. Sometimes I do joke around a little bit. Let's go back in the story. You can definitely joke around. Okay, sometimes I feel like, yeah. Please do. These are serious topics, but it's not, doesn't, I hate

Starting point is 00:15:26 it when people interview me and they think they can't have fun because they're talking about such serious. I don't take myself too seriously, so please have fun. Thank you. So you have this contact into the underworld. Right. And he connects you, or does he connect you on text? Does he connect you in person? So yeah, so the thing is with this contact, it's net. We always

Starting point is 00:15:43 have to meet in person because obviously you can't, I can't text them. Even WhatsApp and signal doesn't work. I can't just text them. I want to see. Did you have an assassin for me? So there's always in-person meeting, which involves a lot of cigarettes. We smoke a lot of cigarettes. He smokes a lot of cigarettes. I get nervous and I always smoke a lot of cigarettes. You have to smoke it. It's actually one of the, I find I'm not a smoker myself or I smoke socially once in a while, but I don't smoke every day or even every week. But I find it, it's the best, whatever you are in the world, if you have cigarettes with you and you're trying to interview some of these characters, you offer them a cigarette or you ask for one of their cigarettes, it immediately

Starting point is 00:16:19 puts you on the same playing level, level playing field. It really just helps calm my nerves. It probably helps calm the nerves of person I'm with. So with this guy, it involves waiting for many hours for him to show up because he's never on time. And then when he shows up, it's like many cigarettes, a lot of cigarettes. And then I usually tell him like, hey, we're looking into doing a story about this and that. And in that case, it was assassins. And, he said, I actually know one. He's a hitman. I've known him for a long time. And he organized this meeting. And he actually drove me to meet the guy. And he told me all off the bat, be careful. This guy is, I think he's sort of bipolar. I've seen this guy be super happy and suddenly pull out a gun and pointed at somebody. He's a little crazy. And I said, but do you really think this guy is actually an assassin? Because a lot of people just like to brag, right? Oh, yeah. Is he an actual assassin? He said, dude, I've seen him being paid $180,000.

Starting point is 00:17:12 or whatnot for a hit. He's known. In my community, people know him. This is a guy that's well known. And so that was it. And so we met. And so we get there. He's at night,

Starting point is 00:17:25 un disclosed place, but very close to my home. And he's waiting outside the car. And the moment I get there, you could see he's like jittery and nervous and not happy. And he was there because his friend asked for this favor. And in his case, sometimes it's easier for me to sort of have that human connection and try to talk about how I want to. understand what they do. His case, he was just not. He was like, okay, here are the ground rules. And he said, immediately, see this? First thing, he pulled out his gun. He said, showed me his gun.

Starting point is 00:17:50 He's like, if this is a fucking setup, if the police shows up, I'm going to point this, I'm going to shoot you all of you. You and your team are all dead. It's like, okay. And so the rest of the interview was me being super afraid that what if police shows up, not because I'm there, but what if they just, what if a car just drives by? And he's going to think it's because of me. Yeah, what some chubby cops hiding from his shift over here, right off the edge of this DSW shoes or something. Exactly. So I was so scared. I was so scared. And I think it was the shortest interview we've ever done. I think it lasts like 15, 20 minutes. But also because, you know, there's the initial questions is what do you do? How often have you done it? Why do you do it?

Starting point is 00:18:26 How do you live with yourself doing this kind of thing? I always, the accountability questions, I always ask them. But the part that he didn't like, it wasn't actually like, do you know that you're doing harm to people? This is, what you're doing is horrible. Like, do you feel guilty about this? the questions he didn't actually like was when I started asking him, he says, I only kill men, no women and children. And I asked him, but do you have children? And basically, obviously, I was trying to get to the point that even if a child isn't killed, their parent, the dad is killed. That's horrible and traumatic. But he's already better than Net and Yahoo, no. He was like, don't ask me questions about my children. Don't, you're trying to get all soft on me. He got, he was like his macho persona was getting, you know, he didn't like that. he didn't like talking about his children no because it probably made things very personal for him maybe yeah yeah i think i think part of his persona being a hip man is that he you know you can't show emotion right

Starting point is 00:19:17 that's what and so i was threatening to him in the sense that i was trying to get emotion out of him and he was not okay with it and he's this over and yeah and then we left so and how did he say how he lived how did they live with what they do or what like is it money is it once you get into that you can't get out of it was there any yeah so in his case, it was money. And again, it was a 20-minute conversation. I couldn't get much out of him. But fast forward to South Africa, where I did interview a guy, an assassin, for two hours. And his story is fascinating, actually, because he got, he was, his parents were killed when he was eight or nine years old. He was an orphan. And he was bouncing around from like family member to family

Starting point is 00:19:58 member. Nobody wanted him. He ended up on the streets when he was like 14 years old, no work, no education and eventually started selling drugs for as a drug dealer on the streets and eventually somehow even with that there was enough money and he figured out that he could make more money somebody offered him more money to go and kill a few people and he did or a person and he did and he did he was high he said he was very very high he says the only way he could do it is it by being high but he did it and and he was able to do it because a lot of people aren't and thankfully and so while talking it starts he says but I only kill bad people it's like what does that means what bad people according to who oh to whom well they're bad people there are stealing or who have

Starting point is 00:20:43 raped or whatever in his mind he had justified for doing what he was doing and then again I talked about do you realize that what you're doing because he also said he doesn't kill women and children but do you realize that what you're doing to those women and particularly to those children and is exactly what was done to you, right? As a kid who you left an orphan because of it, it changed your whole life, you're traumatized by it. And he had a moment where he's like, I had never thought about that.

Starting point is 00:21:08 I had never in my life thought about that. And we finished the interview and he comes up to me. And he's almost into years and he was like, I, this, you have no idea what this has done. This conversation, nobody has ever been interested in my life or why I do what I do. And I've never been able to speak about myself. And it was a therapy session for him.

Starting point is 00:21:25 That doesn't mean that I'm healing people. I'm not, but what I am, I think, is at least trying to understand and trying to show people who watch trafficked why people turn to become criminals, because no one, I believe, is born wanting to be a criminal. You know, I believe that there is evil out there. I used to not think that there was. I believe that there is kind of pure evil, right? Now, can it be coerced into better ways? I don't know if all of it can sometimes. I mean, there's some pretty dark stuff that happens out there. For sure. But I do agree with you also that everybody needs somebody to listen, which is crazy, right? Yeah. Like even Satan probably is like, God, I wish sometimes somebody would just sit with me for a couple minutes, you know? Maybe I wouldn't be such a piece of shit.

Starting point is 00:22:13 You know, I don't know. But I think it's like the catharsis of having somebody see you, even if it's a part of you that you hate. Or it's a part of you you're so ashamed of. and not look at it with disgust, you know. I think that, yeah, the catharsis and the exhale that can happen inside of somebody's soul from a moment like that is pretty powerful. Right. Man, you feel bad that people get stuck into those type of circumstances.

Starting point is 00:22:42 And you can also easily see how it can happen to people. Absolutely. You know, if you look at, I may say that I believe evil exists as well. But I do think that the vast majority of the people that I spend time with, whether the drug dealers or the traffickers or whatnot, that these are people that are born out of the circumstances that they're born in. 100%. There's nothing that says that Mexicans from Sinaloa,

Starting point is 00:23:05 from the mountain regions of Sinaloa, where the Sinaloa cartel operates, there's nothing in their DNA. There's nothing that says that they are prone to being more drug traffickers, have a higher number of drug traffickers than, you know, a person like myself born in Portugal or you were born in Louisiana, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Lydia, I was born in Louisiana.

Starting point is 00:23:25 A beautiful state, by the way. So what is it? It's because if you're born in an area where there aren't a lot of job opportunities where your father, your grandfather are drug dealers, and this is what your whole, you know, many generations that survived on, you know, that's what you're going to be. I remember interviewing a Pimp, also in L.A., funny enough, where it was a young kid.

Starting point is 00:23:44 It was like 26 years old, and I was asking him, why Pimp? I mean, did you? And he was like, look, you know, you ask kids in rich neighborhoods or middle class, And they're saying they want to be lawyers and doctors. In my neighborhood, the heroes were the pimps. The people we looked up to were the pimps. So all my life, I've just wanted to be a pimp. Oh, yeah, everybody in my neighborhood was single-parent family.

Starting point is 00:24:05 The pimps were the only people that at least had a gal around. At least these pimps and hos were in relationship of some sort. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? The rest, everybody else was just like, jeepers, okay. Yeah, we're eating luncheables at night. This fucking household sucks. But, yeah, at least pimp's and hos, like, we're trying to figure something out, you know? I said, yeah, I can

Starting point is 00:24:24 And they were well dressed And they were Yeah, there was Yeah, there was Yeah, there was. There's definitely a level of pomp Like in poverty Of like certain things, you know

Starting point is 00:24:32 Yeah Yeah, like I even remember like Getting like wheel covers For my first car Like it was a total piece of junk But it was my car And I had like these fake rims on it But they were shiny

Starting point is 00:24:44 And they looked like Like if another idiot like me saw it Like damn that guy's got it Yeah, there's all these things of like having some sort of stature, I guess. Right. Yeah. The status is really interesting because I was listening to a podcast the other day. It was on Joe Rogan. I can't

Starting point is 00:24:59 remember the name of the guy, but it was so interesting to me because we all know that we all need community, right? It's a huge part of being human being. We need community. We need identity. But the stat, there was this guy cannot remember his name, but he talked about, he did a book about the need, the biological need that we all

Starting point is 00:25:15 have for status, which I found really interesting. So this sort of race to the top, is actually something that's in our DNA? Yeah. Well, then that's interesting because they're talking about like, you know, if AI got to certain levels, we'd have to create some sort of a universal basic income. And then I wonder in what way, there would be few people that probably had a lot of ownership over status.

Starting point is 00:25:38 And then in what ways would the rest of us look for status or created? Maybe we'd realize that there was an error. Right. Because I think even evolution over time, like, realizes sometimes, oh, this is in the right path. and it's course correct maybe we would realize oh that this search for status isn't rewarding us as people and maybe just investing the status that we want for ourselves if we can get that out of somebody else's joy creating joy in somebody else right then maybe that would be like a course correction you know i'm not sure yeah um i do think it's important for human evolution

Starting point is 00:26:14 though which is why probably that is within us right the wanting to become the best and then creating the best that's a good point huh probably well for certain there's there's a thing inside of humans where we want to know why right like a lot of animals are running around like you know you don't wake up and like there's like a goat over there sitting like on the edge of the property and he's having a coffee and he's like scribbling down why he thinks things are going on today or something but we like we want answers yeah you know not everybody but a lot of us yeah yeah you do you're obviously very curious person and you which is why you have a podcast and you like talking to people, but I don't think

Starting point is 00:26:51 everybody's that curious. You do. You're over there tickling Voldemort. Okay? You're over there bumming menthols off of Voldemort so that you can get a little bit of information. So I'm out here on the I'm in the tertiary. You are in the trenches. Tickling Voldemore

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Starting point is 00:31:01 and you can cancel at any time. That's shipstation.com slash Theo. Let's go down another road. you had mentioned that what's happened signal or farcical, right? I'm not sure if they're farcical. I mean, I know that there are ways that the government can go into it.

Starting point is 00:31:23 I mean, there's a Pegasus, which is a program developed in Israel, which was used by governments all around the world, including Saudi Arabia. At some point, it was being used by the United States government as well, in which they could basically gain access to our phones and see everything inside,

Starting point is 00:31:37 you know, even the encrypted messaging apps, absolutely. However, it's still, the app, those are still apps that I use, but if, you know, we don't talk about locations and dates or, the most sensitive information, we usually talk face to face or certain ways that I'm not going to disclose. For sure. I went to Qatar a few months ago to do comedy for some military personnel over there. And part of me wondered if they had tapped my phone when I was there.

Starting point is 00:32:10 Yeah. And because they kind of had me come very quickly at the last man. I was like, why are they having me come, you know? Wow. I mean, I thought it was the government that invited you or was it the military? Yes, it was the hospitality people there. And they were extremely hospitable and they were very kind. I didn't get nothing inside of me set off any like qualms from them personally, like, that

Starting point is 00:32:32 they had any ill, where they were out for anything nefarious against me? For the Qatari military that you were doing that? It was for the U.S. It was a joint base. Okay. But it just happened very fast. They're like, you know. Can you come?

Starting point is 00:32:45 My agent was like, if you can be at the airport in like five hours, you can go. Wow. And you'll be back in 36 hours. Wow. And so it was just a lot. And I was like, I was very gracious. I would go back in a heartbeat. I had a great time.

Starting point is 00:32:57 So in a situation like that, do you go? Do you already know what, do you have a set? Do you have your comedy set already? Oh, that was a hectic moment for me because, well, first I thought there was a part of me. It was like, I'm going to, I could, are they going to kill me or whatever? because, you know, journalism has recently become a little bit more, and I wouldn't call this journalism. I would definitely call this somebody recovering from addiction

Starting point is 00:33:16 doing their best in front of equipment from Best Buy. But I would say that. But these days, that is kind of like what the world, you know, it's like it's somebody trying to share what they think or get information that's not mainstream media, right? So, and I just didn't know. I said, who knows if they put out a hit on, you know, the top 80 podcast, you know,

Starting point is 00:33:39 right podcast and like okay they're filing us in the in there was a part of me was scared so what did you did you do anything with your phone well the first thing I did was bring a friend I was like I'm not dying by myself over there you know so I brought my buddy Bizzle because he's at a good life and and so I was like yeah I'm picking somebody that's happening I'm not picking somebody that still has to figure it out but anyway um no I just I didn't think that they would tap my phone or that they could have but I don't know is it easier over there and then I asked Sean Ryan and he's like they probably did they probably probably did. They're probably, they tapped, yeah. Yeah, it's very possible. You know, I went to

Starting point is 00:34:14 Vietnam. I did a story about the bride trafficking story we did was in Vietnam. And this is in this new season? For the new season, yeah. And it's a very sort of, the government controls the press over there. And so it took as months to even get the visa, approved, the journalism visa to go to the country where we can bring all our camera gear and all that. And once we did, we were told immediately, we were assigned a government minder, a guy who's with us the whole time. And he also had some law enforcement guy with him. So every single interview we did, they were right there. Oh, and we had to send

Starting point is 00:34:45 them questions in advance before every interview, and they would have to tell us it's okay to ask this, it's not okay to ask that, which for me, for the kind of work we do, is horrible. We're trying to talk to, you know, these bright traffickers and these underworld characters, the Baltimore's of the world, and

Starting point is 00:35:00 we were being spied and listened, not spied, listen to the whole time. And then we actually found out through some sources there that they believed our phones were absolutely being tapped and there was one day and so oh and that our vans

Starting point is 00:35:14 our rental vans were being tapped as well and when we were told this one afternoon the next morning we had we had to go get into the vans and we were told that the fixer had taken our van because the van had had some problems overnight and we were like oh we are definitely

Starting point is 00:35:30 being listen to spite and listen to his bananas while your van was sitting there overnight doing Nothing. And it wasn't even his job. I mean, he was the government minder, and he took our van and disappeared with it for hours. And they're like, okay, this is real for real.

Starting point is 00:35:44 But that's the problem, too, in some of those thorough countries, you have to work two or three jobs even to get things organized. You're like, wait, I'm the fixer. I'm also, I also have to install these spy equipment. Right. Come on, guys. And then I get into the hotel room, and we're saying at a really nice hotel in northern Vietnam.

Starting point is 00:36:01 The Rex Hotel, was that it? It's not the Rex Hotel. Is there a Rex Hotel? There's a beautiful Rex Hotel. I believe in Ho Chi Minh City, yeah. Oh, oh, you've been. Yeah, I just been there once when I was a student, but it was nice. This was a long time ago.

Starting point is 00:36:14 We were in a place called Sapa. It's up in the mountains. Okay. Carry on, sorry? And the phone is there is a light, a red light. So basically I'm calling another room and discussing when is dinner or something with one of my colleagues. And the red light is like going on and then basically all signs that I was being. And then I was not on the phone.

Starting point is 00:36:34 And then the red light kept on going. in moments that I was on my cell phone talking to people, which they're not, if I was being in fact tapped, which people there told me I was, they're not doing a great job because figure out the light, you know? Yeah, like the craziest would have been if you just open the closet and it's just like a little Vietnamese guy just over here. With a glass. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:54 But that is kind of funny when you get into like, you know, like, I don't even want to say poor because a lot of times I think of poor countries as more creative countries. But as you get into more creative countries, you'll see like more creative fun things like that that are actually. Oh, that's why I love traveling. Yeah. It's pretty heartwarming to see the way that they're like, this guy's a spy. This is your equipment. It's just an empty pint class.

Starting point is 00:37:18 And the guy's like, come on. It's so good. It's so good. But the Biden administration had been there with the State Department. Several members of State Department's phones had been tapped. They found out. So it is absolutely possible. It actually happens.

Starting point is 00:37:32 And it happens at the highest level. So for, you know, poor journalists like myself, where they're trying to control what I'm putting out there, they were afraid that I was going to be critical of China because China's the ones are the ones who are sort of, the kidnapped women, Vietnamese women, are being taken to China. And they have a very sort of fragile alliance with China and they don't want to make them angry. So they had every, they wanted to know everything we were doing and make sure they weren't going to make China angry. It's so sad that when you think about the news, right? Because the news or journalism is kind of the loudest voice of a nation, right?

Starting point is 00:38:12 Or just anything, you know, it's so crazy. I'll compromise our voices are at the smallest level and at the loudest level. Take me into some of that bride trafficking because it sounds bride. You're like, oh, congratulations, you know. And you're like, oh, this took a turn, you know, in just one word. Yeah, take me through some of that. What do you kind of learn? Like, what took you over there in the first place?

Starting point is 00:38:36 And then what's that relationship between China and Vietnam? Yeah. So we started seeing these videos online of essentially these women, a lot of times girls, teenage girls, in markets in broad daylight being nabbed from the side of the street or these markets and then being kidnapped. Is that real? Yes, these exist. And against their will, you'd see them screaming and yelling and, and, and, uh, We were, well, what is this? And we found out that a lot of them were being victims of this bright trafficking, where it exists because in China, you know, for many years they had the, it started in 1970, they started the one child policy.

Starting point is 00:39:14 So this one, I remember seeing this one. You see there's a woman there. Oh. How scary. Sometimes it's their own families that sell them. A lot of times they're just kidnapped in the middle of the streets and taken across. the border to China. And people can't help? And so it's a little bit, I think people decide not to help. There's also a tradition, which doesn't help the situation very much, but there's a

Starting point is 00:39:43 tradition amongst the Hmong community, which is terrible. But if you're engaged, it's a tradition that you kidnap your wife to take to the father and ask for permission for her hand. And it's sort of done with the acceptance of both families, and sometimes the woman is last to know. So they, what traffickers have been doing is that they've been using this cultural tradition to benefit their own actual kidnapping. Yeah, they're sort of like a mariachi ban or something, and they think it's like part of the thing. Exactly. Oh.

Starting point is 00:40:19 Exactly. And they're actually kidnapping these women. And so they kidnapped these women, and where do they, what, were you able to find out more? Yeah. So what happens is one child policy, a lot of, uh, China. If you had more than one child, you'll have heavy fines. So as soon as you are pregnant, people wanted to know if it was a boy or girl. And in China, culturally, men are the breadwinners. They're the ones who will take care of the parents when they're older. And so it's very important

Starting point is 00:40:44 to have men and not women for them. And so there were massive amounts of abortions done if they found out it was a female. So nowadays, there are more men in China than there are women. Oh, it's got a cell. Single men. And again, if you're single in China, it's your real. it's looked down upon because you're not procreating, you're not giving your parents grandkids, and there's enormous pressure on these men to find wives in a, and, you know, there just aren't enough. But it's not even their fault. The government set it up.

Starting point is 00:41:12 I know. So it's like, what do you? I know. It's terrible, but then obviously the last resort is that they go into these poor communities in Vietnam, and they pay these traffickers to kidnap them and pay them thousands of dollars to have these women. And the stories we heard were so sad. I mean, this woman who was trafficked, in some cases, again, the families actually sell them.

Starting point is 00:41:34 I don't believe it was the case with this woman. She was trafficked. She arrived in this apartment in the big city in China, and she was immediately locked in a room. And the husband would rape her, would come in, and then she got pregnant. And then they took the baby as soon as she gave birth, took her baby away from her. And then she got another baby and then took the baby away from her. And then she was obviously depressed, so depressed, thinking of committing suicide, awful. And she at that point had given them two children.

Starting point is 00:42:05 The grandparents were living in the house too and taking care of the kids. And she convinced them to let her go see her family in Vietnam because she hadn't seen for like six years. And she did. And she had to make the decision, do I go and see my parents in Vietnam and leave my kids behind? Or do I stay here as a kidnapped victim in a way that I can still have a relationship with her kids? Wow. And so it was awful because she chose to go back to Vietnam knowing full well that you will never see her kids again. And she was showing me photos and it was just heartbreaking.

Starting point is 00:42:36 It was really horrible. Sorry to bring it down this way. No. I mean, it's just like we live in such, we all live in such different world so often, you know. I mean, you can literally be falling asleep at night in a warm bed and you're okay. And then you, somebody else, somewhere else is getting on a train and having to never see their children again. you know having to make that decision yeah but how did it behoove the the guy if he doesn't have a wife if he needs to have a wife did he just want the woman only for sexual purposes

Starting point is 00:43:08 do some of them like in that situation in this situation yes and other situations they mostly it's because of having a woman but other situations is also for companionship um although it's harder if you're detained and kidnapped it's harder for you to you know take the woman out for dinner, I'd imagine. But there were some situations where the woman sees themselves trapped, and then there's a lot of shame that goes with being in that situation, where then you prefer not to go back home, and you just accept your new reality, which is awful. God.

Starting point is 00:43:41 Yeah, it's very depressing. Yeah, it's like that story you would see sometimes in movies where someone would get kidnapped and then raped and then brought back home, and then people would shun her because she had been raped. Yeah. And it's like, oh. Yeah. And the same thing, actually, it reminds me a lot of the African immigrant.

Starting point is 00:43:56 and even Central American migration, but particularly African migration, where I've done many stories about kids. One was a soccer trafficking story where kids were promised by these fake agents that they would take them to Europe to play in these big clubs, and then they'd get there, and they'd sell their house, sell anything they have to pay the agent, and then they'd get to Europe and they'd be abandoned, right? But at that point, it was, they were so just embarrassed because they were sort of the hope for the whole family, right?

Starting point is 00:44:23 This is the child that's going to bring us prosperity. And then they were just embarrassed. So they never spoke to their families again. And they would just live in misery on the streets of Europe. So that was a scam. They were taking people there. There was no soccer. There was no setup.

Starting point is 00:44:38 People had paid money to be a part of this thing, this opportunity. They made it look great with videos and pamphlets or whatever. And then there was nothing. There was nothing. But the shame that's surrounding stuff. Yeah. Well, how can I go home? I'm the one.

Starting point is 00:44:50 I cost my family everything. Yeah, exactly. So then these stories aren't told and nobody knows that this has actually happened. because in their minds, the family is saying, oh, he must have made it really rich. He's not contacting the family anymore. The stories that they keep hearing is of success. The same happens in the, you know,

Starting point is 00:45:06 migration that we see in Central America to the United States or, you know, the people coming to the U.S., a lot of them, they are hearing the stories of success. Right. And so that's in many cases what they're, they're not hearing the stories of desperation and how hard it is to get here. Yeah, they're just hearing the advertising, really, you know,

Starting point is 00:45:22 or the positive advertising. Are there brokers that are brokering those women in those countries? Yeah. Is it like a company that's like, okay, we need to try and get this many women a month? I'd love to know that. And then how often is this happening over there? It's really hard to get numbers.

Starting point is 00:45:39 We spoke to organizations who are on the ground sort of taking care of the victims. Some of them managed to escape and come back. And they say it's in the thousands, but it's impossible to know exactly how many. It is unbelievable, the craziest part of it is because our hands were sort of tied behind our backs in terms of reporting. We had the government minder with us at all times, a police officer, like everything we did. We went out in the middle of the night

Starting point is 00:46:02 to try to film behind their backs. It was really hard. But we actually were able to contact a group of local journalists who were actually doing their own investigation, and they were mainly Chinese, and they were able to film undercover. So we saw them, they went and had meetings pretending to be buyers in northern Vietnam,

Starting point is 00:46:22 and then they also went to some brothels in Vietnam and China, where you are given, they showed us, it was like lists and lists with photos of girls, their bodies, they're, you know, it's like modeling, advertising. Right, their height, their weight, their body, there. But it's for girls that are for sale. And so it slipped, he was seeing like a whole catalog of beautiful girls. Some of them looked like they were 14 years old. And they're going through the catalog, and then they can just point and say, I want to. this one. And then that person is delivered to you. It's crazy. And a lot of them are being held

Starting point is 00:46:59 basically at these brothels on the border in China already, where this guy also got access. So he went in, crazy video. He went in. It's a long corridor full of dark corridor full of rooms. And then the brothel woman, he told them that he was there to meet a wife. And the woman opened the door. He goes in, he gets in and there's like three or four women in there. And there's total darkness. He can't see a thing at all. And he's hearing, they're communicating very low and in talking to him and saying, what do you want? What sex do you want? Let's do it. Because, and he was like, oh, no, because there's a journalist undercover journalist and saying, I don't want sex. She's like, please, they'll beat us if you don't have sex with us.

Starting point is 00:47:43 And he had been locked inside at this point by the woman, the brothel owner on the outside. So we had to do it? No. And then he managed. to figure out a way where he started knocking on the door and saying that he had to go that something had happened and came up with an excuse to leave. But even him, and he's an undercover journalist that covers the worst of the worst crimes, he was telling me it was one of the most depressing and nerve-wracking things he's ever done in his life. And these three, four women hold up in there in total darkness and forced to have sex with men that come like this. And then a lot of them are sold to become brides as well. Yeah, it's dark. Is there regulation in those

Starting point is 00:48:20 areas over that sort of thing? They say there is, but obviously what we found is that there isn't. And this is part of a new episode? Yeah, this is one of the episodes of this season. Yeah. How do you leave a place like that and not bring it with you, not feel like you have to go back and do something? What is that like? I think that's the hardest part. It's not so much about bringing this. A lot of people, you know, I get asked sometimes how do I not, why am I not depressed and, you know, at home, locked on drugs because of all of what I've seen. It's not so much for me. It's not so much that. It's the fact that, you know, we live a little bit on somebody's nightmare for a day, you know, and then we have the privilege of coming back. You know, we're almost

Starting point is 00:49:09 like it, you know, feels like we're exploiting their nightmare because we want them to share their stories. Yeah, I can see how it could feel like that at times. How do you make a lot of manage that feeling? I mean, yeah, how do you manage that? I'd say that the way that I rationalize it. I'm not panning myself on the back because I think journalists love to say that they have a very important job. And I do think journalism is important, but I'm not the kind of journalist that goes around, you know, telling people I've got the most important jobs. There are jobs that are more important. You know, you don't see teachers going around saying their jobs are important. And I have no idea why journalism. Neither one of us is less or whole.

Starting point is 00:49:49 You know what I'm saying? Let's be realistic. But I do think that the way I rationalize it basically is that, you know, putting the story out there and being able to gain access to these worlds and showing why this is happening, I'm hoping that then we are holding power accountable. We're telling those people in power that this is happening and trying to change the system because at the end of the day, for me, it's not so much that people are broken. It's that the systems are broken, the systems that allow these things. to happen, you know, whether we talk about immigration or we've reported on fake pharmaceuticals and how the Mexican cartel and groups in India are making these really dangerous, deadly pharmaceuticals that Americans, like 20 million Americans cannot afford medication, their own that they need, life-saving medication sometimes. And so they're having to resort to online

Starting point is 00:50:42 pharmacies in India or going down to Mexico to these border pharmacies. And a lot of times that stuff is deadly and tainted with other drugs. and other chemicals. And what does that tell me? It doesn't tell me. It tells me that people are exploiting a broken system. And it's our responsibility and our government that has allowed this to happen. Why is it that 20 million Americans can't afford life saves it being treatment, right? What does it say about us? More than what does it say about the guy in India who's making these drugs, you know? Yeah. It's wild that, you know, most people are afraid to get in sick nowadays just because they're like I don't know if I want to go through all the bulls the stress

Starting point is 00:51:17 of even trying to get better with this system it's almost like it tries to kill you while you're just trying to get some basic medicine you know it's um yeah it's heartbreaking man it's heartbreaking over over your 20 years you know kind of investigating the dark arts if you will you know have you noticed things getting do you think better and I know that's a big kind of blanket term Or have you noticed things getting not better? Not better. Not better. So most people don't know this, but 38% of our global economy are these gray and black markets.

Starting point is 00:51:55 It's what economists call the hidden third. Wait, what are you saying? That almost 38% of the global economy are these black and gray markets. 38% of the global economy of the GDP of Earth? So the drug trade alone is estimated at between 6 to 8. $800 billion. That's more than many GDP split together. Scams last year alone, they went up, I think it was $12.5 billion, were scammed from Americans last year alone. That industry has been growing. Every single year has been doubling and doubling. Well, let's look at this first one for a second. So when you say that that drug trade, yeah, the drug trade. What percentage of the global economy are greater black markets, black market, shadow economy estimates commonly suggest that black market counts for around 22 to 23 percent of global GDP. GDP, in developed countries, the black market typically constitutes about 10 to 15%. Right. So this is just black markets. Gray markets are things that aren't necessarily

Starting point is 00:52:52 illegal, but are unregulated and untaxed. So things like selling fruit on the streets or clothes or things that aren't regulated or taxed. Okay, do you think that that's a little bit more the gray market is more like somebody trying to make ends meet than it is somebody taking advantage of somebody? What do you? I think a lot of it is just people trying to make ends meet. And a part of it is people trying to stay still on this side of the law. But that is not achievable for everybody. Not everybody can do that. So one of the first episodes we ever did for traffic was about cocaine. And we went, we went, we were in Peru, we were in Colombia, and we basically saw what it means for a kilo of cocaine to go where it's made. We went to the

Starting point is 00:53:33 jungles of Peru. We saw how it's being made in these big pits with the coquilees. Take me through it a little bit. Oh, it's fascinating. It's actually fascinating. I'll in, I'm a like he. hear. I want to hear about it. Yeah. You've got the jungles of Peru, the coca leafs, they harvest the leaves. And you can see fields and fields of coca leaves that have existed for decades in this area of Peru. It's the Vrain Valley of Peru. And it's sort of, it's like some soft music too, Nick, if you don't mind. Sorry, I've had a little enjoyed cocaine in my life. But no, okay, going in Peru. I've never actually tried it. Yeah, I was going to ask you that. I've been offered it so many times. I bet. By like the purest. Oh, you've got to at least. Yeah. So this is then they dry the leaves and then they put them in a big pit. So we went in the middle of the night. We're going down this sort of trail in the middle of the night.

Starting point is 00:54:24 It's super muddy. It's sort of rainforesty, raining all the time. And I'll never forget where it's dark and we're carrying, all of us are carrying. We're like six of us carrying equipment plus the guys that are taking us to the place where they're making cocaine. And my DP, who's French, he was with his very French accent, complaining. He's like, oh, I can't. What do I do? I can't.

Starting point is 00:54:48 And complaining that he's like, we're slipping and sliding everywhere. Meanwhile, holding these, like, very expensive cameras and canvas bags full of gear. And we thought it was going to be, you know, like, we'll be there in five minutes, 10 minutes. And 45 minutes later, we're still walking down this rainy path in the middle of the night with nothing, no light at all. You can see not that. Yeah, we're such Americans. We're like, oh, we'll just park and then walk right over there. Yeah, that's what we thought was going to happen.

Starting point is 00:55:12 We'll get the closest parking. It's so true. And meanwhile, yeah, and then there's no light. And I basically have, as I have now, the phone at the time was another photo of me and my son. And this, oh, and they told us we can't use flashlights, even though we had flashlights with us because they didn't want people around the valley to see this because what they were doing was they could get them killed. And so where I'm only using the light from the front of my. my phone to sort of just see where I was walking. You know, I'm covered in mud.

Starting point is 00:55:42 We get there and there's this pit, enormous pit. It's like Olympic science pool pit with all the drugs, all the cocaine leaves being mixed with products that then they, once it stays like this for days, and then they sort of bring it out into these buckets, gigantic blue buckets, and they mix it with everything from gasoline and dye and all these products that eventually get made. into this powder. And so we are literally seeing the whole process. And as this is happening, we start hearing noises in, you know. Oh, yeah. And that's the moment that we knew. They were like, okay. So as, you know, as long as it took us to come down that valley, it took us about half that

Starting point is 00:56:25 time to go off because we were running out. Yeah, I even look at a bag of cocaine. I start hearing shit, you know, so I feel you there. Definitely. Anyway, carry on. You could actually. Was there a gift shot? You could smell it. I mean. In the air, you could kind of You could smell the petrol. You could smell the whole thing. And a bunch of us were worried that we were going to get. I've been in fentanyl labs, and that's even worse. Because there you can actually feel your body starting to, like, warm up.

Starting point is 00:56:49 The, like, physical. We were in an enclosed fentanyl lab in Sinaloa, Mexico, where the chemists, we're all, we're actually using, like, half-math suits and masks because we're an American crew. Meanwhile, these guys have, like, you know, like a bandana around their face and their, touching the powder and he's telling me I was like how do you know when it's ready and he's saying because I can feel my heart starts beating really fast and that's when I know

Starting point is 00:57:15 the fentanyl is ready it's insane you should watch that oh that's crazy and that was last season that was actually season one we did a first season at fentanyl but then just to finish the cocaine because it's so fascinating yeah for sure how it gets out of this this valley of this region we then spent the night

Starting point is 00:57:31 with these kids 16 17 year old kids who are backpacking and taking these 20 30 pounds of cocaine or 20 something kilos of cocaine on their backs for days on end for a whole week on in the middle of in you know really rough terrain seeing some of their friends being killed in front of them by rival groups um one of the ones I interviewed I will never forget this interview it sort of very much changed the show uh this interview that we did that I did with him is the second episode we ever did of trafficked and it was I'm talking to this kid I'm asking like why why

Starting point is 00:58:05 why do you do this? I mean, you've seen friends being killed. It's backbreaking work. You know, they get insects all over. It's, they're sleeping out in the open for days. It's just horrible. Terrible conditions. And he's saying, look, I've always wanted to go to college and I want to be a dentist. And my family is super, super poor and they're never going to be able to afford my education. And so this is the only job that's afforded to me. I do this once a month and I get X amount of money and I'm saving that money to one day become a dentist. I thought, and dentists is an interesting, why dentists, right? You hear a lawyer, you hear a doctor, you don't hear dentists. And he says, because there's a lot of ads for dentists in my town, and they all show people with a big smile, and I want to make people smile, and I want to make them happy. And so it's stories like this, and I seriously started hearing more and more stories like this. I was like, okay, I think this is the message of the show. Yes, it's a dangerous world. We should be careful. We should explain and, you know, shine a light in these underworlds. But ultimately, I think the message of the show is to show is, that this could happen to any of us, you know, if we, depending on where you're born, you know, it's like the wheel of history turns and where and when you're born, this

Starting point is 00:59:12 determines whether you get lifted or crushed by it, right? And that's the idea, I think, behind the show and so much of what I've learned. Got to let you know today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app. That's what it is. And it's, I think it's my favorite, to be honest with you. It's one of those apps that makes it easy to start saving and saving is crucial you can get it for you you can get it for your niece like i just did acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future you don't need to feel like financial wellness is impossible acorns gives you small simple steps to get you and your money on track you don't need to be an expert

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Starting point is 01:00:38 Compensation provides incentive to positively promote acorns, tier four compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns, L-L-C and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash the O. You know, I've been out on tour a lot this year, different cities and crowds and different towns, even, wonderful places. And one thing that I do not have as much time for anymore, though, is handling the merch from our store. That's why I run my merch through Shopify. It's just easy.

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Starting point is 01:03:21 That's 20% off your first order with the code T-H-E-O at LiquidI-V.com. I think you're right. I think, you know, it's like you could look at it as like X, like, what's it called when you take advantage of something? Exploiting. Right. But I think you have to shine a light on something. People can't even see it, you know? So I don't think it would be if people are like you're exploiting.

Starting point is 01:03:46 I'm like, good, someone has to go exploit these things just to give us an idea. I think it's where even when I was a child or a teenager, it's where you got ideas like you would see certain like documentaries or things that you would make you want to join like Amnesty International or different groups that like could have a voice that made you ever even think about having a voice, you know? Right. So yeah, I think that the positive far outweighs the risk of any negative

Starting point is 01:04:11 and you must have decided that a long time ago where you wouldn't have kept going. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I like to think that there's that there's some good that is being done in just raising awareness to all of this. But it does feel bad sometimes. It just, yeah, it feels wrong.

Starting point is 01:04:25 Like, it's, yeah, a day trip in somebody's nightmare, essentially. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it would be so hard to leave. Have you ever kept in contact with people from some of these experiences? So many of them. Yeah, I've kept in contact with so many.

Starting point is 01:04:38 Yeah. You know, I, one of the first stories I ever did for an American organization, a media company. It was for Current TV. Do you remember Al Gore's TV station? Yeah. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 01:04:50 Dude, I was with my buddy Ezra yesterday and he used to Ezra Cooperstein. Yeah, of course. Of course. Of course I know Ezra. Bring up Ezra, man. I love Ezra. Oh, you know Ezra from the podcasting world, of course. Ezra and I just went to, Ezra's great.

Starting point is 01:05:06 I'm working with him right now. I'm starting my own podcast. Are you? The Hidden Third. Congratulations. Yeah, it's with Ezra. I love Ezra. He's got a big heart.

Starting point is 01:05:14 He's a neat guy. Oh, he's great. He's awesome. Yeah, I've known him since the current TV days. That's so funny. didn't know until yesterday that he'd ever worked at Current TV. Yeah. We were in San Francisco.

Starting point is 01:05:25 Did you know it? For an interview and we didn't know. He just said, you know, I used to live around here. I used to work with Al Gore. I was like, oh, cool. Do you remember that company at all, though? I remember hearing about Current TV. Do you remember it, Nick?

Starting point is 01:05:36 Oh, Nick. I do you remember it? I remember it. What do you remember about it, Zach? Thanks, Zach. I was kind of an outlier. I was really tapped into political stuff, so I was paying attention. I was at like 13, paying attention to that.

Starting point is 01:05:49 Anyway. It was great. It was basically, it was a little bit of YouTube before YouTube. It was like the idea was that cameras were getting so cheap and easy to use that they were going to empower young people to get out there and film and edit. So essentially they gave me, they offered me money to go around the world with my husband. At the time when we started with my boyfriend, became my husband. And we would travel and did, you know, the war in Sri Lanka, the Lebanese-Isbola war. That's actually, it was our honeymoon was covering that war.

Starting point is 01:06:18 So we travel all around the world, doing these amazing stories together, and we'd do everything. We'd film, we'd edit, the whole package, and then just deliver it to current TV, and they'd offer, they'd give us X amount of money per minute of product of TV delivered. And the first story I ever did for Current TV, when I was still trying to convince them to hire me, was a story about the death train. I'm sure you've heard of it. It's the train. In Indonesia, you mean?

Starting point is 01:06:43 No, it was in Mexico. So it's the train that carries undocumented immigrants for. from southern Mexico to northern Mexico to the border with the United States. So it used to be, yeah, exactly. So it's a cargo plane. It's not Amtrak, is it? No, it's just a cargo train

Starting point is 01:06:59 that carries everything from... Oh, okay, so it brings all kinds of stuff. Oh, yeah, is this the train that every couple of years it's on the political kickball, they kick this around, like they're coming back or whatever. Yeah, it's not, it doesn't operate this way anymore.

Starting point is 01:07:11 Thank God, because it actually is responsible for lots of deaths and amputations. But we were there at the peak of when this was operating. And it was like that. You see the hundreds of people on the... Just packed on top? They were packed on top with no safety measures.

Starting point is 01:07:25 Obviously, they're on top of a cargo. Sometimes they were holding on to the sides of it. And they would go for days and days on end just to get to this northern border where they could cross into the United States in the sun. And one of the kids we met when we first got to this town, Tapachula, which is right on the border with Mexico and Guatemala, was a kid who was in a clinic and he had lost an arm. He'd been amputated, lost an arm.

Starting point is 01:07:48 to the train. He tried the train. He fell off the train. You know, it went right over his arm. He lost his arm. Three days later, we are taking, we have convinced the guy that sort of runs the train, this part of the train. We have the railroad. We convinced them to let us go, me and my then boyfriend, who became my husband, Darren, to get on top of the train and do a certain amount of time. I think we did like almost a day or half a day or something on the train. So we could see just how difficult and dangerous it is. And we could film with the characters we were following, because we were following a group of women from Guatemala

Starting point is 01:08:23 that left their homeland to try and reach the U.S. and provide a better life for their families. And we're on top of the train. No, and we're heading towards the train to get on top of the train. And who do we see? But Guillermo, the guy, the kid, Guatemalan kid who had lost his arm who was going to try that journey again.

Starting point is 01:08:41 And there he was. And he, we then introduced him to Maria, who was a girl, the woman we were, filming and they traveled the whole way together and eventually Gnirma actually didn't make it across one more time he was detained on the border

Starting point is 01:08:55 and two years later and we kept in touch and two years later he was still texting me and saying that he was still trying to make it across and so yeah I stay in touch with a lot of these people that I report on gosh yeah what inside of you makes it be able to handle this type of stuff

Starting point is 01:09:12 have you thought about that over the years because I think that it's interesting you know like sometimes even as viewers of things it's hard for us to take on it's hard to make it through certain moments of your stories to listen even compassionately it's tough you know it's tough on our hearts what do you think that is

Starting point is 01:09:27 that gives you that ability or resilience or I don't know coldness? Is that what you're trying to say? No I wasn't really. No I don't think it is a coldness I think of it is a coldness I don't think it's a coldness either I do I think it's a couple of things I think it's

Starting point is 01:09:44 like I'm genuinely like yeah how are you able to do it right and and do you think that there's because some people we have to hear about things so like some people have to have a gift like if you told the messenger something and he couldn't hear it in his heart stopped then no one would get the message right so there has to be a reason that the messenger's heart is built a certain way so I think that's what I'm asking yeah yeah I like that um I think that a few things I think curiosity I've always been incredibly curious you know I decided I wanted to be a journalist when I was 12 years old mainly because I'd watched anchor and on television, talking about the whole world, and I was like, these are the most intelligent people. You know, I didn't know they were reading from teleprompters. I just thought their ability of retaining information was out of this world. I was like, okay, that's what I want to do. I want to retain this amount of information as well. So I think I've always been curious and wanted to know about the world. I've always loved traveling. I've always felt comfortable. I think part of growing up in Portugal, a small country, growing up in Portugal, small country, loving to travel and go out, I think very much explorer blood. You know, we have a whole history, a big history in

Starting point is 01:10:43 Portugal with the explorers exploring the world. And I think that's very much in my veins and my blood. I think I'm very, I don't think my parents were never worried or were scared of the world around me. They were never the kind of parents that would say don't do this because it's dangerous. They weren't helicopter parents. They never were. And I think that just allowed me to have a, like look around the world and not see danger and look around the world and see opportunity and excitement. I think that's a big thing. I've tried. try to raise my son the same way, you know, because there are those parents that everything. Oh, don't watch out. Don't go, don't climb that tree. Don't watch out for those steps and everything.

Starting point is 01:11:22 And I think you're passing on that sort of anxiety to your kids. So I, my parents were never like that. You know, I moved, I moved to the West to study, but then I moved to the Middle East. The war in Iraq was happening. I moved to the Middle East and I started my career doing this crazy job and never once have they told me, be careful. Of course, they worry about me and they love me, I hope, but they don't, they're not, they won't never tell me not to do it. They support me and trust me, I think, which is very important. And then I think I'm really good at compartmentalizing things in my life in general. I can be with you right now and really enjoy this experience.

Starting point is 01:12:04 I mean, maybe this is not a good example because we haven't. But I can be with my friends in Portugal that I love and adore and have been my friends, since I was five years old, and I love every second, and I think I'm going to die when I leave them, and then I'm somewhere else, and I am there, you know, and I'm there. And I think that's helped me in the work that I, that I do. Yeah, I think you would have to be able to do those things. That's pretty fascinating. What a neat. What a neat ensemble of life. You've got no experience. Yeah, I'm very lucky. You have an episode in traffic this season about rehab scams. How do you get into that and what do you learn?

Starting point is 01:12:43 Yeah. You know, I've been covering the opiate crisis for a long time and the drug business as well and just seeing, you know, talking to people that have gone to rehab as well. And lots of times I heard horror stories. And so this season we decided to really try to investigate what was happening. And we started our reporting in Arizona where basically there are all these sort of rehab clinics that are there to exploit Native Americans, mainly Native Americans,

Starting point is 01:13:14 because I know, it's really horrible. Native Americans get access to health care easier, much easier than the non-Native Americans in the state. It was something that started during COVID where you can just basically call the health department and say, you know, this is my name, this is my Native American ID number, and they will give you insurance just like that.

Starting point is 01:13:37 It was to make it easier for them. But what has happened because of it, is that now they're seen as targets as, you know, prizes for these black market rehab operators that set up these clinics. They basically go to reservations. It's insane. They go around these reservations telling, convincing people that have problems with drugs or alcohol to come into their vans. It's these white vans. And so it's a little, I've heard about the right vans for many.

Starting point is 01:14:10 years and you always think it's sort of a myth, right? But it turns out that actually in Arizona, it's not a myth. So it's a very rehab thing to the white van. Like usually if there's a detox center or if there's a halfway house, they usually come in a white van. So it's very typical to see that in that community. Right. So that's exactly it. So they go in these white vans. They convince people. Sometimes they tell them we're just going to go for a ride. This is what I heard. But the majority of times they tell them, look, we're going to offer you free treatment, free housing, free food, just come with us. And then they place them in these houses, but they don't act, They offer them free housing, but they don't actually offer them any treatment.

Starting point is 01:14:42 Or if they do, it's shit treatment. And they're charging insurance insane amounts of money for bogus treatment. And a lot of times these are desperate people that really do need that treatment. And instead, you know, they're being lied to and exploited and just horrible, horrible conditions. The state, I think it was $3 billion or somebody, don't quote me, because I can't remember exactly. But it was billions of dollars that the state of Arizona lost to these rehab scams in the last few years. years alone. Why would they, why would they, the people stay there? I guess it would be my question. Because they had, a lot of times they were actually given drugs. And this is happening,

Starting point is 01:15:17 after Arizona, we came to California as well, where they're exploiting not only Native Americans, but anyone, people from all walks of life. And they're actually going to states like Alaska and Oklahoma all around the country and bringing people to these rehab scams, facilities in California. This is where multiple states sources and news outlets have reported that the cost of fraudulent billing and scams involving rehab and sober living facilities has totaled approximately $2.8 billion for the state of Arizona. That's unbelievable. Yeah, that's 2.8. Yeah. The scams primarily exploited loopholes in Arizona Medicaid system, especially the American

Starting point is 01:15:51 Indian health program billing for services that were often never provided or for patients who were not even in the facilities. Were the patients also part of the scam? So a lot of times they're actually given alcohol and drugs to stay there. Or a lot of times these are people who, you know, whose families, they've suffered from addiction, the families might not want them or, you know, they don't have means to go back and they decide to stay. Because here they have a free house, free meals, and sometimes even free drugs and alcohol. So they stay. But what they don't know or what they, you know, what is happening behind that sometimes they don't know is that they are being, they're sort of a prize. They're being exploited and

Starting point is 01:16:27 they're making millions of dollars off the fact of having them in these facilities. And this is happening again in California as well. Did you find out who are the solicitors of this? Is solicitors the right word? Yeah, or the owners of these clinics. Yeah. Who is the proprietors of this? Yeah, we did. We actually interviewed, I mean, in Arizona, when they figured out that the state started cracking down on these rehab facilities, they closed hundreds and hundreds of these clinics that they realized were pure Medicaid scams. And a few of them were still operating. One, which was sort of the bad one that we kept on hearing about, was still operating.

Starting point is 01:17:00 So we showed up at a Ramada Inn, like a decommissioned Ramada Inn. Oh, yeah, been there. Yeah, decommissioned. And where hundreds of people were being held, or not held, but they were. housed. And we were told that that place, the Arizona, the government, the Department of Health of Arizona had told them, had sent them a cease and desist. I had told them they should not, they could not operate because they were running a scam, a Medicaid scam. And meanwhile, a few months later, we show up and we're outside with our cameras in hiding in our own vans. And we see

Starting point is 01:17:32 white van after white van in the front with people being taken into the vans and then being driven to this treatment center where then that afternoon I was able to talk to somebody who went into the treatment center. I saw that a bunch of people were leaving the motel and I just went up to one, started talking to him. And he said, yeah, I mean, it was hundreds of people inside this sort of classroom and no one is actually getting treatment. But they're charging, you know, sometimes up to like $10,000 a person for treatment that they are not receiving and they desperately need. And that $10,000 goes straight into the pockets of these owners. CEO of Tempe rehab absolutely denies allegations of Medicare fraud, right? So this is a place that these are...

Starting point is 01:18:12 This is the one that was running the facility from that decommission. These are accusations. I want to let you know that's allegedly. We finally caught it with Newfound Hope's owner to see what he had to say while at the Arizona Office of Administrative hearings. We interviewed him, Dennis Artillas. And he denied that his facility was operating the day that we saw all those vans full of people taking people. We had recorded evidence of this. And he denied it. it. Okay, so we did not that it was operating. That it was operating. You're saying you have evidence that it was operating. That's right. I mean, we saw it. We filmed it. Yeah. That's an amazing Dini Artillas? He's Latino or no? Is Latino? Maybe. I can't remember exactly. I know that we spoke to his sister-in-law who was working. She was the one responsible for the billing in his company and she basically became a whistleblower and told us everything how he was double billing for people

Starting point is 01:19:08 how he was billing for people that weren't even there so he was getting that he was making $850 million or his company facility $850 million a month she showed us the billing that's disgusting

Starting point is 01:19:19 show up another picture him you can't it's the only photo of him you can get yeah he's quite he doesn't like the lamelight of course he doesn't that's why I want to make sure we get a good one of them

Starting point is 01:19:28 because the problem with there's a lot of criminals they don't ever get shown and so people don't know who they are. We have a guy who allegedly stole a bunch of money from us a few years ago. What was that guy's name? Colin Thompson. Colin Thompson.

Starting point is 01:19:42 I'm going to put a picture of him up right now as to remind everybody that he's never... What did he do? He got paid from advertisers and never paid our podcast and others. Oh, no. There he is right there. He was missing, defrauded, that I know of me and my friends, was up to like $4 million. No way.

Starting point is 01:20:01 What is he doing? right now, do you know? I'm not sure, but I'm glad that I don't have to be involved with him anymore. Did you know him personally? Yeah, I thought I thought I did. I thought I did, but he just he was, according to me, and this is just allegedly, the guy was a complete thief piece of shit. But I just heard, I'm not saying I heard, I'm the only reason I know that is because I said it. I'm not saying anybody else has ever said that. Wow, hiding his picture from the internet. So you know he must have himself scrubbed off the internet. Just zoom it on his face a little bit. I just want to get a gander at him and then we'll move on.

Starting point is 01:20:33 There's a video too. There is. In being interviewed, yeah. That's the scary thing about the world. And I think one of the tough things is, who do you feel like should come, like, we find so many dark circles and, like, pools of existence, right? And because it's weird as a human, you start to think, okay, well, I'm part of a neighborhood, my neighborhood, a family, right?

Starting point is 01:20:54 Or a government, right? Or a country. You think these things, what have you surmised over time? what's going to come to our rescue do we need faith do we need team work like do you is it all different for everything what do you think i think we need a government that works which is all these people are doing they're exploiting broken systems so we for this story we interviewed the investigator the fraud investigator for the department of health california's department of health and he was saying how there are thousands of these rehab clinics in

Starting point is 01:21:29 California. And he estimated that about 10% of them are fraudulent. And so my question, that made me angry. I mean, I'm angry for these guys who exploit this system and who are basically, you know, exploiting the most vulnerable people out there. But I'm mostly angry for our government. You know, these are the people that are responsible to make sure that those people aren't victimized again. Yeah. And who are making sure of these people are getting the treatment that they need. And that is just not happening. So I mean, I told him, like I'm, I'm angry at them, but I'm mainly angry, not you personally, the fraud investigator, but at the government and the department that you work for. And why isn't that more hasn't been done to prevent this from happening?

Starting point is 01:22:09 So I think it's the systems. And what did he say? He says he understands that. Right. And he wishes they had more resources. Nowadays, you can, and he told me, like, you, you are found with a kilo of cocaine, you go to prison. You are found making millions of dollars on the back of vulnerable people telling them or telling the government, telling the insurance company that you're providing, treatment they are not providing, you don't do a day in jail. And so they're just, they're just doing, you know, exploiting a broken system is what I keep saying. I know. And that's what I think is the biggest realization, I think, especially in the past year or two, is that none of, it doesn't feel like our government's here to help us anymore. And that gets kind of scary because then it almost

Starting point is 01:22:51 feels like it's up to us. But then it also feels kind of inspiring because the truth is that it's always kind of been up to us, you know? Yeah. So, but at least we still hopefully have ourselves to count on, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious about, kind of pivot for a second, but curious about like who will, what type of people will be on your podcast? That'd be so fascinating.

Starting point is 01:23:11 Mainly I want people who have some sort of understanding or have experienced the life of crime, which is not necessarily you, but I think you offer other interesting knowledge. I mean, and you've talked a lot about your past addiction. Yeah, I've been involved in illegal drug use. I've been involved in, like, sex, getting hiring prostitutes or paying stripper, that type of stuff. I don't know if that's, I mean, everybody wanted to do it, or everybody was having a good time, I think. Yes, everybody's having a good time. But I'm trying to think of what other crime I've done.

Starting point is 01:23:54 I mean, I hit a guy with a vehicle once. He's fine. He's fine. It wasn't on purpose? It was on purpose? No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, so it was accidental non-homicide or whatever it's called. I'll give you.

Starting point is 01:24:05 He wasn't that great before I hit him. I'll be honest with you. And he was stoned. It was after a concert and he just, but he's fine. He's doing great. Still text. Seems good. Good.

Starting point is 01:24:16 Hope you're doing good, Henry. Anyway, let's keep it going here. What are you going to say? But I'll give you a truth. test after and you can tell me all the illegal things you've done and I'll say if you're you can I think that's all of them I think that's all of them that's pretty good um as in not a lot um I think we'll have a lot of people who are still you know because I've reported on this for so many years I have a roll of decks of really interesting contacts yeah I think a lot of the people that will come on the podcast will still be wearing a mask so that they can talk freely about what they do but for me it's another avenue um in another format to get people into this you know again the hidden third of the world that no one knows much about. Yeah. That's the idea. Oh, it's cool. Well, especially since so much of the, I mean, that black and gray market, you said, that's 22% of American GDP? That's the, that's just the black market. And I think, you know, what,

Starting point is 01:25:10 the, the, the, the, the, the, the market is where it gets more. But I can't, was it just American GDP? I know that drugs, drugs alone, in America alone, is $150 billion a year. And that's just, just drugs. And is that include, does people sell? like dealers on the streets or just when you say the black market is that like a website or is that like the dark web no no no it's just by black market i mean it's a market so it's the market for illegal drugs in the united states you open that up nick thank you yeah that's the one yeah estimates commonly suggested the black market accounts around 22 to 23% of global GDP and the gray market income close about 8% of global and look at 10 trillion the total global market is estimated with it total black

Starting point is 01:25:49 market only rivaled by the GDP of the united states wow 10 trillion the total black market is estimated where Tintrae making one of the world's largest economic forces. Wow! Yeah, it's crazy. And we have whole organizations channels devoted to analyzing every up and down of the legal

Starting point is 01:26:08 economy, yet there's nothing out there. If you do, you know, even do searches, there's like no one, we are one of the only outlets out there that is actually, you know, gaining access to these worlds, investigating, showing people, you know, peek behind the curtain of how they operate.

Starting point is 01:26:24 Yeah. So that's where the idea of the podcast came. I have all these contacts and all this knowledge. Yeah, well, it's just fascinating to think. Say if you look at it into the world, say you're standing on a mountain looking down at the world, if you think that 20% of it is a black market, that's unbelievable because it starts to make you think, well, this, is there a baby in that baby carriage? What's going on here? Who's moving that? Is it what's really in that truck that's going down the street? Yeah. And do you think those are fear numbers? You think that that's real? Oh, that's real. Oh, I think that was probably underestimates it, actually. I think absolutely that's real. I mean, I've seen it all around. I mean, like I said, it's, it's your neighbor. It's happening down the street. So many of the work and the filming that we do actually happens in the places that you least expect in broad daylight, in like, you know, it's not the dark tunnels. It's like in open, lit warehouses and, you know, the neighbor's house and the backyard. One of those stories we did for another season was Ghost guns do you know about ghost guns ghost guns so it's readily ghost guns which is a crazy I thought it was like um I thought it was British people that are like you know spiritual British or whatever anyway sorry and sorry to say that word but I thought that I was like what is she saying ghost guns do you know by the way when I moved to the U.S. I spent some time in the UK and I didn't

Starting point is 01:27:44 they use the word cons a lot but they don't it's it's a whole new level in the West yeah they use it all the time yeah they use it all the time so when I first moved here one of the things that I used to say is that the rule number one which I learned in the UK by an English journalist who was my boss at the time and he taught me a lesson in journalism which is rule number one in journalism is you don't work with cunts.

Starting point is 01:28:05 And so I went around telling people this all the time and not realizing that people were like shocked. All the lesbians are like, whoa, hold on. And here I am repeating it. Oh, I remember I was in London and the guy's like it was some cat with his kids, he's like, yeah, he's in my two cunts right here. And I'm like, no, this is

Starting point is 01:28:23 What are we talking? This is fucking somebody needs to do an expose on this family. Okay. What were we just talking about? Going back. So the podcast, so that's what it's going to be is a lot of that. Well, especially since it's such a big part of the world, I think it is fascinating.

Starting point is 01:28:39 I think it is fascinating to see also who's gotten busted for things when really those things were out of necessity. And though they were crimes, they were probably more like white like, like, you know, nonviolent crimes, you know? And what is that like? Right. and the choices people had to make. That's all pretty fascinating.

Starting point is 01:28:56 Yeah. Oh, good. I'm happy you think that. She just brought ghost guns. Oh, ghost guns. Oh, ghost guns. That's where you talked about. Yeah, real fast.

Starting point is 01:29:05 I'll just explain. So, ghost guns are readily available or, you know, firearms that you can assemble with over-the-counter components or 3D printed parts or all of them together. They don't have a serialized number. They don't have a serial number, which is the ID of any gun. And sometimes they have fake serial numbers. in our cartels USA, we interviewed a guy who basically goes around the country

Starting point is 01:29:27 selling guns to the cartel and to, you know, gangs and whatnot. And he makes his guns himself, they're ghost guns, and he actually prints fake serial numbers on the guns, so to make them look more legit. So if you're stopped, you have a license to own a gun, you have a gun, you show a serial number.

Starting point is 01:29:44 At first glance, that's totally legal. But if you investigate further and you actually put the number of the serial gum in the system, you realize that actually that is a ghost gun and it's not legal. So somebody's just making them. So somebody's making them and they're making them one of the other places I filmed.

Starting point is 01:30:01 I'm making it seem like LA is the center of everything. It really isn't. This is happening all around LA, all around the country. But we actually filmed in a guy's backyard in L.A. Where these guys had an operation. They were making ghost guns. They were assembling them with 3D printed parts and

Starting point is 01:30:16 parts that they bought online. They were assembling these AR-15s and these pistols. And then We saw, we were there when a buyer came, and the guy comes and we had told him that we were filming and he decided he was okay with wearing a mask and being filmed, making that purchase. And he's a gang member. And he comes in and he buys a gun. And then he gets mad at our cameraman for some reason because he thinks our cameraman is smirking. He's like filming like this, you know, making a face and he thinks he's smirking.

Starting point is 01:30:44 Oh, yeah, like that. You have to do that. And he starts being like, what the fuck are you smiling? Are you fucking making fun of me and threatening him? and he had just purchased this gun and things turned really dangerous, really fast, and sketchy. And then we found out the day after

Starting point is 01:30:59 that he went that day and he shot a woman with that same gun that he had just purchased in that backyard. So this to say that it's everywhere. It's like that black market, these illegal markets, whether it's guns or drugs or scams or whatnot, they're all around us, yeah.

Starting point is 01:31:17 Well, especially when you have like people 3D printing guns. When people are, it's like Legos of guns now. It's like, oh, look, I got this cool new Lego of kit. I'm building an AR or whatever. It's like, what is happening? Yeah, what is happening? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:31:31 It's craziness. You have one party, I want to ask before you leave, about militias in this new season. I would like to be part of a militia one day. So I want to say that out loud. And I think, because I believe, I'm like the revolution guy. I want there to be a revolution. I want to be. like on a horse you know charge you know I want to be like on a horseback or even a pony I'll get on a pony it'll be fucking weird and people are like dude hurry the fuck up I'm like dude it's his fucking small horse and but I do want to be part of the revolution right I want to at least try and charge the hill before we all get gunned down by Palantir allegedly allegedly you have to go back in time a little bit right but you're not living in the right time I don't know actually it might be yes that's what I'm saying so what do you find out about malicious are they good or bad

Starting point is 01:32:19 We don't go into a story thinking about whether they're good or bad. However, I would say that there has been a growth of militias in the United States, that it can be dangerous, that we are at a time in which we're more divided and torn apart than ever. We are seeing militias grow on both sides of the spectrum. So not only right-wing militias, but left-wing militias too. And they're both in answer to the other side, right? So we filmed with a group called Patriots for America, who are operating. on the border. And basically what they are seeing is an invasion of immigrants into America. And they decided they were going to take matters into their hands. They trained. They used combat gear.

Starting point is 01:33:00 They use, you know, night vision, like top of the line. This is a top of the line combat gear. And they go out there patrolling the border. Yep. We are a diverse community patriots that love our country. Okay. Yeah. So what they say they're doing is they're just patrolling, although they have been accused of actually detaining one of the migrants. I asked them that they say they don't touch the migrants ever. They just patrol and they're sort of a, what do you call it, a deterring, deterring force kind of? Yes. To prevent migrants for coming. What is interesting is that they're also operating. We saw it. They told us that they have support of a lot of sheriff's departments in the area. And they're also helping border patrol. We saw, we were there the day we filmed,

Starting point is 01:33:45 We filmed them calling Border Patrol because they had seen some migrants crossing. We didn't see the migrants, but they did. And they called Border Patrol, and the Border Patrol came, and they hitched a ride with Border Patrol. We filmed behind as they were going to show where the migrants were crossing into the United States. They sound awesome to me, to be honest. To you, they do. It causes all sorts of trouble, problem. So actually, a well-regulated militia, which is, in fact, in our Constitution, is allowed.

Starting point is 01:34:13 What is not allowed is unregulated militias, acting and pretending as if you are law enforcement, dressing up training for combat, all that is actually not legal. And what we decided is, you know, Sam Hall, who's the leader of this militia, we spent a night with him and seeing his work. And, you know, I'm not saying that what they're trying to accomplish, you know, they believe the country is being invaded. they decided that they wanted to do. I'm a strong believer. Our government is broken, particularly when it comes to immigration policy,

Starting point is 01:34:49 but I'm a strong believer in holding our country accountable. It's very much part of the work that I do instead of arming myself and training for war and going down there to scare girls, little girls and kids and women. I agree with that. I think that is horrible. Having filmed and spent time with some of these migrants who are crossing the border,

Starting point is 01:35:07 who are victims many times of extortion, of rape, you know, little kids who are scared to death, and then they come across these heavily armed, uniformed guys that they think are border patrol that are a deterring factor and therefore probably, you know, whatever they do. Even if they don't talk, it's scary, right? And so I don't personally think that's the way to go. Right. I think you vote. I think you go to the ballot, you get involved politically, and if you really want to change, you try to change it that way. Yeah. Has it works? No, but is that the solution? it's not. Right. I agree. It's not. I think there is part of this, right? I agree. It's like somebody that's coming over here that's looking for a better life that wants something different. I think the border system, they left it open and broken on purpose. I think to create a lot, almost because it inspires people who believe in America. Maybe these people's parents died protecting their country, right? And now they're thinking, well, they're having people come across the border. And a lot of them weren't even Latinos. A lot of them

Starting point is 01:36:10 were bad actors. A lot of them were people that came here with ill intent, right? I think only 40% were Latinos that came across the border during, like, this great migration that's happened during, like, the Biden administration, right? Yeah. And then also you're like, yeah, it could, it's like. But that doesn't mean that they're bad people. No, not at all.

Starting point is 01:36:30 It doesn't. But at all. I think it's really tough, though, if you're like, if you were a person who, maybe your dad served in the military. And then you start to think our government doesn't care about us anymore. Maybe someone who came across the border raped somebody in your town or did something bad. Now all you care about is protecting your own. So it's like I can just see how people can start to do this sort of thing, right?

Starting point is 01:37:02 And I don't know. And I think in the end, to me, it's all our government's fault. I think they want the words. They want the videos of the bull. they want all the fucking fighting so they can keep us arguing about this shit they can get votes so they can keep getting votes or we're going to do it this year they've never done it they've never figured it out you know I think I think immigration not to get animated no I get very animated about this topic it's heartbreak it's fucked up and they they're the ones letting us all battle this there's a new movie called Eddington and it's really cool it's like this this sheriff in this town and he during the COVID during COVID and he has to and BLM and everything. He has to deal with all this stuff.

Starting point is 01:37:42 And he's the sheriff. So he's like the authority figure. And it's watching him lose authority over himself as it all falls apart. Anyway, I get very animated. I mean, particularly with what's happening, I don't tend to become political or to talk politics. Yeah, me either kind of. It feels like it's just a joint thing. Do you feel like it is or what do you think?

Starting point is 01:38:00 I do. I am not happy, obviously. I'm incredibly saddened by what's happening in our city right now. I, having spent many years... In Los Angeles, you mean? Yes. Sorry, in Los Angeles, my city, sorry. Having spent many years reporting on immigration, are there criminals who come across?

Starting point is 01:38:18 Absolutely. Are there people carrying drugs? Absolutely. Are the vast majority of people coming because they are under, you know, there's violence in their hometowns. They're in desperate situations. Nobody would be making that very, you know, very few people. I've done that journey, parts of that journey.

Starting point is 01:38:34 You know, whether it's the death train or the Darien Gap, I've, you know, I've been on the border right at the beginning of the Darien Gap, which is the jungle that, you know, a lot of people die trying to make it. And I've seen what it takes. And I've spoken to these people. And a lot of them are mothers. And nothing moves a mother more than trying to provide a better, you know, life for their kids. For their children. If their children are endangered, if they know that their kids can go out on the streets and be co-opted or killed by gangs and if they're not killed, if they're not joining the gangs, I would do anything.

Starting point is 01:39:05 Exactly. I have a child myself. and I would do anything. And a lot of the stories that I hear again and again, they're not lies. They're real stories of human beings that are living under horrible situations that are trying to do everything

Starting point is 01:39:18 for a better life for themselves and their kids. So I think when we start going out on the streets of L.A. in these raids, and, you know, I know personally people have been affected by this, who refuse, you know, people have lived there for decades and are not, are afraid to leave their house.

Starting point is 01:39:33 Yes, they weren't born in the United States. Some of them came here when they were still kids. Some of them came when they were adults, but have spent the last 20, 30 years living, paying taxes, you know, working very hard, many hours a day, and have done nothing wrong. Yeah. And being treated the way they're treated, being handcuffed, windows smashed in cars to remove this mother with the kid watching. These are traumatizing events. Whatever happens to that adult person, these are, this is traumatizing for herself, for the kids that are watching. it's, you know, taking away the father of these military members.

Starting point is 01:40:07 These are horrible. It's beneath us. It's just beneath us. I think one of the lessons that I've been taught when I was growing up is you should be judged by the way you treat the people that have less power than you do. And not by the way you treat those above you, right? Yep. And I think we can put that directly onto, that's a great statement.

Starting point is 01:40:27 You should be judged by the people who have less power than you do. And that's our... By the way you treat them. how you treat them yeah and that's our government yeah to me i i don't think it's a conspiracy theory i believe that they knew they wanted all this to they want because they want this constant battle they want to be able to have something to kick ball back and forth we'll do it they'll fix it it's their fault they because if they fix it then they can't blame it on the other person exactly and that's the problem i think with a lot of things in this country and i

Starting point is 01:40:58 agree it's like it's heartbreaking to see um families separated like that and it makes you question like well why do i get to be here you know i was just born here you know um and then you look at the native americans he's like well fucking they didn't yeah they got exactly and then who did they take it from aliens or somebody i don't know how far back it goes you know our mollocks or whatever right but for me it makes me certainly question well what you know to say this is mine you know um but at the same time you There has to be, like, organized bookkeeping of inventory, and I don't mean, I mean, all of us is inventory, to make it so that everything can make sense. And we could do all that if we want. I believe that they don't want to do it at the top.

Starting point is 01:41:42 And I also think that I think that we're about to enter a surveillance state, right? I was talking with Sam Altman out of the AI guy, and I don't know if he knows or not, but he believes that we'll be under surveillance will be a big part of things in the next few years. That's so scary. But I believe why a lot of this is happening now, and it's painful to see it happen, is because it's all going to be under surveillance soon. So you couldn't even be someone who's here that's undocumented, right? They have to figure out all the paperwork now. Like, they have to figure out what's in the shelves of our, what's on the human shelves of our country.

Starting point is 01:42:19 So I believe we're headed there quick. And so that's why I think some of this is all happening now. Because in two years, if you even walked out of your, if you, even showed up in a parking lot you were here like undocumented right um you or you're overstaying a visa if you showed up in a parking lot there will be like it is in london they will have like cameras and it will you will know you will know pretty quickly this person isn't you know so i think that that's where we're headed and that's why that's happening right and it is heartbreaking though i think it's a political too i do too and that's the fucking sickest thing it's like we all

Starting point is 01:42:51 humans we're down here having this to have like yeah you know be scared for our neighbors scared for ourselves and those people are probably they right you know they're getting on horseback what the fuck are they you know but they're you know they was sold a bill of goods that this is their you know it's like yeah it's crazy and you start to wonder who's watching all this are we all just being live stream somewhere yeah you know i did a story once about the flat earthers and of course crazy movement obviously i don't believe in any of it but one of their core beliefs again i do not belief. It's not true. The earth is not flat. But one of their

Starting point is 01:43:28 core beliefs is that we are being, it's like the Truman Show. We're being watched and there is somebody kind of watching. Well, it does feel like it sometimes when you start to spin out a little bit. Yeah, it's not, let's say it again. Flat Earth, the Earth is not flat. So they don't think there's any credence for me bringing

Starting point is 01:43:44 it up. No, I don't look. Nobody's accusing you that. It just feels it feels like we're all being, basically being we're pawns in the system, right? It does start to feel like that. Yeah. And not in a way. Not in a conspiracy, in my case, I don't think of it as a conspiracy. I think it's like, they have the power as a president to fix certain things. And the reason why certain things are not being fixed is because it benefits them not to fix them.

Starting point is 01:44:10 You know, I talk about this all the time. When 9-11 happened, 3,000 people died on 9-11. We reorganized the government. We spent trillions of dollars trying to make us safer. one million people have died with the drug war or because of the opiate crisis in the last 25 years 1 million people 3,000 people die a week which is what died in 9-11 3,000 every week from drug and alcohol and our government still hasn't figured out a way to create a better solution to prevent this from happening that makes no sense to me they don't want to and yeah it's not to believe that

Starting point is 01:44:45 at a certain point yeah at a certain point you just think like what's happening like wake up this you know, Americans are suffering. And I think in many ways, the suffering, you know, drug addiction, unemployment, poverty, you know, many people, we used to be able to afford a house, be able to get married, things that people aren't allowed or can't make happening. Yeah, one parent used to be able to work. Right. And you have a president who points the finger, presidents and people, who point politicians, who point the finger at immigrants as being the cause of all evil. Everything that's bad in Europe life right now is because of this group of people. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:45:19 And it's much easier, right? It's easier to blame one group of people than it is to actually fix the things that are wrong because then you can just say, this is it. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think we're in a spot right now where there's a lot of exposing of like, I think people are seeing the lies. They're seeing, oh, this is not, you don't care anymore.

Starting point is 01:45:39 You're not, you guys aren't voting on any. No, it's all a charade. It's all nothing. You guys are all compromised. Yeah. I'm working with this. This Democratic congressman right now, his name's Rokana, and he is the congressman for Silicon Valley. And we're working on building an app, right?

Starting point is 01:45:57 So an app where you could put in all your beliefs into it. And you could put in, I don't want this person accepting money from these lobbies or I don't want them associated with this. And then you can, you can say, tell me who I should vote for based on these things, right? So then people will be armed when they go. It's like, oh, this is exactly who you should vote for if these are the things you want. That's great. Wait, because they trick you with all this shit, you know?

Starting point is 01:46:20 So I don't know. I think that's why when I say militia, I'm like, I don't know what, I'm just glad that militias are at least practicing, because there needs to be a revolution. I don't know what it is. I don't think it's some guy riding into the Capitol with a fucking wearing horns or something, but I think it's something and I don't know what it is, you know? Right. In my mind, it's not so much, I mean, we haven't found a better system than democracy, right?

Starting point is 01:46:44 What is a revolution going to bring? It's a different system. Unfortunately, democracy is. it. Right. Because all we would do is go to another democracy. Or worse, you know, a system that's not democracy, in which case we're totally fucked. So if democracy is the best system, and it is about voting, it's, I think, just about getting more engaged. I, like, I kick myself every election that I don't get more engaged. And, you know, I'm trying to do work that is raising awareness to issues and sort of shining a light on systems that are broken. But at the same time, I wish I

Starting point is 01:47:15 should be doing more. I think all of us should be doing more. to make sure that our democracy survives. Yeah. Well, maybe with your new podcast, you can have important interviews with people who are going to make commitments. And then, like, I think we as like, I don't know, we as podcast, I'll probably go to jail for something, but that we can try our best to try to hold people to what they say, you know? That's all we can do.

Starting point is 01:47:38 Yeah. But thank you. Thank you for thinking out loud with me. You know, one of the craziest things was, they weren't, people that were coming across the border, they weren't even doing paperwork on. them because they wanted them to go back and they wanted there to be this thing right they because that he makes the numbers look bigger it's right it just it's all fucking such a charade it really is so we just have to think with our hearts and keep shining light where we can and uh

Starting point is 01:48:04 and keep just trying to do better ourselves yeah um i think we've talked about a lot of stuff today yes we have when's the new podcast going to start we don't know yet sometime in the fall cool that's going to be great. And you're working with Ezra. He's great. Yeah, I love it. And those guys. Rooster, are you working with the Roost? Oh, they're great. That's awesome. Yeah, they do our ads and they're really, really super. Mariana Van Zeller, thank you so much. Is there anything else you wanted to share? I'm great. Thank you, yeah. This has been really awesome. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's been easy conversation to have. So the new season, traffic starts. It came out this past weekend on National Geographic. It airs every Saturday at 9 p.m. And then all the episodes are available on

Starting point is 01:48:44 Hulu right now. So you can watch the episodes from this season, but you can go back and watch some of the episodes we talked about from all previous seasons. Yeah. Oh, fascinating. Being alive is interesting. It is. Human beings are fascinating. I know. It's, uh, Marianna Van Zeller, thank you so much

Starting point is 01:49:03 for coming in. We appreciate your time. Congrats on the Emmys. And we'll make sure to check out the new season. Thank you so much, Theo. It's been awesome. Thank you. I feel I'm falling like these leaves, I must be cornerstone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this piece of mind I found I can feel it in my bones. But it's going to take it.

This Past Weekend - #603 - Mariana van Zeller

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