This Past Weekend - #635 - Sen. Bernie Sanders

Starting point is 00:00:00 Here's a question. If you walked into a stash house and found it full of $20 million, how much would you steal? That's the question Matt Damon and Ben Affleck have to answer in Netflix's new movie, The Rip. They play a team of Miami Cops alongside Tiana Taylor, Stephen Yun, Catalina Sandino Moreno, Kyle Chandler, and Sasha Kaye, all trying to decide, are they the good guys or the bad guys? This movie is an edge of your seat thrill ride the entire time, keeping you guessing till the very end. Don't miss the rip. Watch now only on Netflix. Today's guest is a senator from the state of Vermont.

Starting point is 00:00:42 Before that, he was a congressman. He was a mayor. He's a mitten to meme, actually. I'm thankful for his return to the show today's guest is Senator Bernie Sanders. You know, this is an historic hotel. Oh, yeah. Leonard Cohen used to spend time in here. Yeah, my mom used to play Leonard Cohen for us when we were kids.

Starting point is 00:01:23 She liked him, and so she would play his, When the Walls Came Down. Remember that? Yeah, and here is Hallelujah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Here in New York City, there is a, yeah, it's called the Youth Choir of New York. York City. Is that ring any bells?

Starting point is 00:01:45 It's kids. Pull them up. The youth choir of New York City. Yeah, it's beautiful. And among other things, they do a beautiful, beautiful rendition of Cone's Hallelujah, which I love very much. Yeah, I haven't been to see them. I would like to go check them out, though.

Starting point is 00:02:01 Do they perform pretty often? What's beautiful about it, these are kids from the city, often working class kids. The guy does a fantastic job, and the quality is really wonderful. but we're trying to do something in, there it is. God, you can't say a word here. It's up in, there it is. Those are the kids, and beautiful and wonderful.

Starting point is 00:02:23 Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's nice. No, I haven't gone and see that. What did I go? I wouldn't see a Knicks game. They won a championship in 53 years. Right? I didn't even realize that.

Starting point is 00:02:33 Well, I'm done. He's mayor. That'll change. Yeah, there we go, huh? That's, hey, we'll start maybe getting some more foreign players. Hey, they've got some good guys of the Euro stuff. you know, it changed a lot of things. I saw that you were out there on the,

Starting point is 00:02:45 on the nurses, picket line, the New York nurses. Yep. Yeah, that's awesome. We went the other day, too. We had a great time. Oh, wow, that's a nice crowd, Jesus. That's when you were, that was there. Was that, that's me today?

Starting point is 00:02:55 Yeah, that's you this morning. Who's that handsome guy in the brown coat? Oh, that's me. All right. Who's that kid with him? Oh, that's the man. Oh, yeah, that's Zoran, huh? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:06 Yeah, there we were. We went out there the other day. We had a good time. We stayed for a few hours, walked around, shook some bells, you know? Great. Got out there. My sister's a nurse. My sister's a nurse.

Starting point is 00:03:16 Where are she a nurse? She's a nurse down in Louisiana. Good. But I figured that if, you know, things start here in New York, a lot of big things start here. I feel, let me just say something. Yeah. I really appreciate the work you do and other podcasts does do. This is one of the technological revolutions that is really good.

Starting point is 00:03:30 You know, sometimes I go on TV and I'm asked to deal with an issue in seven seconds. I can't deal with it. You can't deal with it, right? Yeah. Takes a little bit of time. So thank you for what you're doing. Oh, well, I appreciate that. Yeah, we're trying to learn as we go too, and it changes a lot, you know.

Starting point is 00:03:45 But were you at Mount Sinai? Which one did you go? Out signing. Yeah, that's where we went. Yeah, yeah. Well, I tell you, I was really proud to go there and be alongside mayors around Mamdani. You know, I'm the former chairman of the Health Education Labor Committee. And I'll tell you, Theo, I have met with nurses all over this country.

Starting point is 00:04:06 I love nurses. It's no great secret that our health care system is broken, everybody. knows that. And the people who are keeping it going are, in fact, the nurses. You know, they're with you when babies are born. They're with you. When you die, they're with you in between. They're at your bedside. They're the backbone of the health care system, and I love them. And I'll tell you something time and time again, nurses would come into my office, and they'd start talking, and suddenly they'd start crying. And you know what they were crying about? They were crying about the fact that they were unable to do the jobs, to do the work, that

Starting point is 00:04:40 they were trained and wanted to do, that they didn't have the number of nurses they need, the staffing ratios that they needed. They broke down. And I was just a couple of years ago, not the similar for what's going on in New York City right now in New Brunswick, New Jersey. These nurses went on strike. You know why they went on strike? Because they needed help to provide better patient care.

Starting point is 00:05:02 It wasn't even about money. Right. They're just saying, hey, I can't even be a nurse. This is my calling in the world. And I can't even do it to a decent potential. Exactly. And it's tough enough. We talked last time about patients being stressed to the gills,

Starting point is 00:05:15 not only dealing with their physical ailments, but having to deal with the stress of begging for insurance companies to support, just all of that. And now you're going to put nurses under the same stress. Exactly. It's pathetic. And I'm sure you know this, the CEOs there are these big, huge hustle. One guy is making $26 million a year.

Starting point is 00:05:37 Another guy, I think it's making $16 million. they're going to make it by. They're bringing in all these traveling nurses, spending hundreds of millions of dollars rather than sitting down and negotiating a decent contract with these dedicated nurses. There they are. You got them up there. Yep. And I'm grateful. I want to just mention these wonderful CEOs by Nate and today. Just so, because look, it's time where we put a name with people who are making certain choices. And so we have Brendan Carr. That's, I know he's over at Mount Sinai. Brian Donnelly, there he is. Look at that big smile. I'd be smiling too if I just made $15 million this year. That's Philip O'Ozua, who looks like a guess who character, and Stephen Corwin

Starting point is 00:06:15 from Monopoly. I don't know, that's alleged. These are the CEO's current, and I think one is just leaving one of his posts, who are, these are who nurses are asking for help from. Is that right? And just to be clear, Bernie, what are the nurses asking for? What they're asking for what they call safe patient, nurse patient ratios. That means if you're a nurse on duty and you have too many patients to take care of, you can't do your job. A patient calls out, needs your help, you can't get there. So they want more staffing to be able to provide the quality care that patients deserve.

Starting point is 00:06:55 And I know in addition to that, I think they were, they wanted health care benefits not to be cut. Right, for themselves, right? If you think that nurses, nurses can't get health care. They can't be sure that they're going to have health care. They're working with the sick. We can't say, hey, we're going to do our best to make sure you don't get sick. That's pretty crazy.

Starting point is 00:07:18 And the other thing they're worried about, and I hope we can discuss this a little bit, is AI and robotics. They've raised that issue as well. Have they really? Yeah. And there was a Dr. Oz, who's head of CMS in Washington right now. It was talking the other day. Let me get it straight. I think it was Alabama.

Starting point is 00:07:35 Rural Alabama. We're there. are weak on the number of obstetricians that they have. And he was proudly talking about how they have robots now who are providing examinations for pregnant women. And who's controlling those robots? It's not some pervert at his house, huh? Well, but the point is, if you're a patient,

Starting point is 00:07:53 do you really want a robot examining you? Right. So, I mean, I think all of this, Theo, adds up to the fact. And I'll tell you, I've been all over the country. And wherever ago I talk about this, Whether you're conservative, you're moderate, you're progressive, you understand the health care system is broken today. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:10 We are spending, this is insane. Do you know how much we spend per capita and everything else? Right? Medicaid, Medicare, what you pay out of your own pocket. How much do we spend per person on health care in the United States of America? You know? Take a wild and crazy guess. Per year?

Starting point is 00:08:29 No, per person. Oh. Per person. Okay. $15,000 per person. Okay. So a family of four spends theoretically $60,000. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:08:38 That is double what any other country on Earth is spending. You got it? Yeah. You would think that if we're spending, you know, if I buy a $100,000 car, you buy a $50,000 car, my car should be a little bit better than your car, right? And yet, despite all of those expenditures, our system is worse than others. We're the only major country not to guarantee out to get all people. But it's because there's these kind of darker agreements between hospitals and insurance companies, right?

Starting point is 00:09:05 And the cost of drugs. Yeah. It has to do essentially, look, in this day and age, running a healthcare system is very difficult. Technology changes. It ain't easy, I admit that. But what is the goal of a rational health care system? It is to say, first of all, to answer the fundamental question, is health care a human right? What do you think?

Starting point is 00:09:28 Should everybody, regardless of income, get health care? I believe that based on how much money our country has, I think it's wrong not to provide that to people because we wasted in so many other ways. Okay, good point. So the issue here is why is the wealthiest nation on earth, the United States of America, the only major country, not to guarantee health care of old people? Okay? That to me is a fundamental issue.

Starting point is 00:09:57 So today, despite spending so much money, 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured. and if Trump gets his way and throws another 15 million people off of Medicaid, raised that number to roughly 100 million, okay? There are estimates out there that when you have that many people

Starting point is 00:10:16 uninsured, no insurance, and underinsured means high deductibles, right? So if you've got a high deductible, you may be insured. I've talked to people, I suspect you have. They have deductibles 10, $15,000 here, right? So if you don't have any money, what the hell, how do you go to the doctor?

Starting point is 00:10:31 Yeah. Yeah. So you have to air. all that together, people get sick, they can't go to the doctor, some 50, 60,000 people die a year in America unnecessarily because they don't get to a doctor on time. That is pretty insane. So in my view, I push very hard to introduce the legislation of what we call Medicare for all expanding Medicare of every man, woman, a child, without out-of-pocket expenses. We could do that without spending, to your point, not a nickel more than we're currently

Starting point is 00:10:56 spending. Yeah. How can we get that move forward, though? Why is this, why does this just continue to be this thing, you know? Why does it continue to feel like like nobody really wants to take care of us, you know? Ah. Now you're getting into another issue. All right, you want to go there? I mean, yeah, I think we can go to a couple of these places.

Starting point is 00:11:19 All right, let's do it. All right. Look, in one respect, the health care system is working extremely well. Not for ordinary people. Not for you, not for me. it is working very well for the insurance companies who make zillions of dollars in profit, the drug companies who charge us

Starting point is 00:11:37 the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. And that's the function of the current health care system. Right. Okay. So again, running a healthcare system, whether it's in Canada, Europe, wherever it is, it ain't easy. And they all make mistakes,

Starting point is 00:11:49 and they all have problems. But if your goal is, if you and I sit down and say, okay, how do we provide a health care to all people and how do we do it in a cost-effective way, all right? Will we come up with a perfect system? No, but that's our goal. Right.

Starting point is 00:12:03 But if we sit here and say, okay, hmm, how can we charge the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs and make $38 billion next year? Yeah. How can we deny people the insurance that they paid for, right? The benefits that they paid for, that's a whole other scam. And that's the scam we're working on. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:21 It is an effort to make huge profits for the drug companies and the insurance companies. And that's why we've got to end this broken system. And again, I will tell you, I've been all over this company. country, nobody, or very few people think this healthcare system is working. We got to expand Medicare over a four-year period to cup every man, woman, and child. But is there a real way to get there? Yeah, there is. Look, it's, the goal is, and then that takes us to another area.

Starting point is 00:12:49 You know, you ask the question, why? Why are we, you know, perhaps the only country on earth not to guarantee health care at all people? Why have the Canadian, you are in Canada right now, I live 50 miles away from the border there, you get seriously ill, you're in the hospital for a month. You know what the bill is when you come out? Zero. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:06 Okay. And they spend half as much per person on health care. And they're a good posture too. You've been over there? Yeah. Sure. Of course. So the answer has a lot to do with who controls the United States

Starting point is 00:13:18 and a corrupt campaign finance system. All right? So if I'm the insurance companies and if I'm the drug companies and you're running around and you're campaigning and say, I'm going to cut, as I do, we're going to cut prescription drug costs in half. We're going to guarantee health care to all people. What are you going to do? You're going to spend a whole lot of money on candidates to defeat me, right?

Starting point is 00:13:40 So you've got a corrupt campaign finance system in which billionaires, in both political parties, by the way, I think Republicans now more than Democrats, but both parties, spend huge amounts of money. Elon Musk, the richest guy on Earth, spent some $270 million to elect Donald Trump president. So, you know, Musk has his own agenda. He wants Trump president. Others, billionaires, have their agenda. That's called a corrupt system, all right? What democracy, in my view, and you can argue with me if you want, is you and I, you're running for office, you want to run against me?

Starting point is 00:14:13 Good. What are your ideas? Take them to the people. People like your ideas better than me. You're going to be. All right. It's not me going out, raising money billions of millions of dollars to defeat you to lie about you, to put ugly 30-second ads on the air, right? Right.

Starting point is 00:14:27 Okay. It's what democracy is. A real debate on the issues. Yeah. All right. Disagree with me. So what? It's called democracy, right?

Starting point is 00:14:33 Okay. But increasingly what politics in America is about super PACs, you know, where if you're a billionaire, you can put, that's what Musk does, hundreds of millions of dollars. And again, it's not just Musk, Democratic billionaires do the same. Oh, yeah. There's the Koch brothers over the years. There's the Adelson's, there's all these different huge, just big pockets that are influencing things. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:14:57 Yeah. Multi-blillion. So when these guys control the political process, you're not going to have a government that works for ordinary people. And it's not just health care. It's many, many other issues. So to my mind, by the way, when we talk about bringing about the necessary changes, this country needs. A campaign finance reform and doing away with Citizens United, that terrible Supreme Court decision. Top of the list. Citizens United, bring that decision up. Citizens United was the Supreme Court decision that said, you have your,

Starting point is 00:15:27 a billionaire, okay? You got it? You have the freedom of speech, First Amendment, to say anything you want about Bernie Sanders. You want to put ads on the air. You can spend zillions of dollars, freedom of speech. And that's what Citizens United said. And obviously that undermines democracy because it allows billionaires the right to buy elections. And can we bring this back to a vote? Like, will Mike Johnson bring this back to a vote? No, he likes Citizens United because it works very well for those guys. And I got to tell you, some Democrats like it, too. But I think the American people, you go out and you talk to, again, people all across the political spectrum, they understand you're not a democracy when billionaires by elections. Yeah, well, here's the thing. It doesn't

Starting point is 00:16:11 even feel like either one of these parties works for anybody anymore. Like, if anything, in the past few years, it's really started to feel like, oh, all these guys are working for somebody else, and we're just this other group of people down here. Because you have, like, they're a politicians online that are like yelling at voters for support about stuff. It's like, we voted for you. Like, you're, yell upwards, you know, like it just, I don't know, it just, yeah, it feels like a total dead in now. It just feels like, um, it feels like most people just want to be elected now so they can, uh, make a profit somehow themselves. It almost feels like a, a business venture if you want to be a politician. I would frame it in that way.

Starting point is 00:16:51 I would, you know, frame it. It feels like as a regular person or that's, sorry, that's how it seems a lot of Okay, okay. It's, I would say it's kind of cool to be a congressman or a senator. Oh, that's super cool. Get your name in the paper. You get our nice shows like this one and all that stuff. And you have a certain amount of power. Yeah. I mean, that's real. And you associate with the rich and the famous, and that's cool, I guess. But, you know, that speaks to where we are as a nation today. And here's, I think, maybe the major point that I want to make. You're living in the richest country in the history of the world. theoretically at least that should mean

Starting point is 00:17:27 that all of our people have a decent standard of living right we should not have people a few blocks from here sleeping out on the street we should not have people unable to afford health care kids unable to afford to go to college people literally unable to feed their families and yet in America today and I know this is really an astounding fact 60% of our people Theo are living paycheck to paycheck And I grew up in a family. I don't know your background,

Starting point is 00:17:55 but I grew up in a family to live paycheck to paycheck. Oh yeah, I knew exactly how much money we had. But no, I knew what we had left at the end of each week and it was in mom's wallet, you know? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:05 All right. And so the simple question that we have to ask ourselves is how do we feel? And, you know, again, you can disagree with me. You're living in a society today where we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had

Starting point is 00:18:18 in the history of this country. All right? You've got the top 1%. doing phenomenally well, owning more wealth than the bottom, 93%. You got one man, Mr. Musk, one man, owning more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households. What do you think? Well, I think it's tough. I think there's two ways to look at it.

Starting point is 00:18:41 Well, I think in a bigger scope for me, you have, yes, you have these billionaires. You have these guys that have all of this wealth. It does feel unfair. They used to say, well, just because one person has more money, doesn't mean that other people have less money. But I don't, just visually, it doesn't even start to seem like that's the truth, right? Optically, for me, it doesn't seem like that's the truth. Do I think there should be a cap on how much money people could have?

Starting point is 00:19:04 I do think that there should be. To me, in my heart, it doesn't feel like people need so much money and so much control. That's the point. I think most people think, and I believe, look, you go out, you're doing it. I mean, you start a business, you're making money, right? Congratulations. We appreciate that. You make money?

Starting point is 00:19:19 Great. you really need hundreds of billions of dollars? No. Really? No. At that point, you know, these guys, whether it's Zuckerberg or whether it's Bezos, you know, they own their islands and their jet planes and their spaceships and all this crap. Bunkers.

Starting point is 00:19:36 Right, exactly. All right, anyhow. So I don't begrudge people. Come up with a great idea, work hard, make money. God bless you, you know. But you don't need billions and billions of dollars when people are struggling to put food on the table or health care. So that's one of the issues that concerns me right now. When I talk about fighting oligarchy, you know, I was on a tour. Oh yeah, I know you had a tour with the EOC.

Starting point is 00:19:57 You guys just, how many cities do you go to? We have been now, I was New Jersey last night. It's the 24th state that I've been in. I think we've done 35 events. Well over 300,000 people have come out. And, you know, I got to tell you, I've been to conservative areas. People of this country are not happy about a situation in which so few people. I mean, we're not, we're really a handful of people have such enormous political and economic power. Yeah. Okay? That's not what America is supposed to be about.

Starting point is 00:20:29 You're rich and you're poor, fine. But not so few having so much power over the economy and power of our political systems. Well, here's what I would think. So, but I wonder if, I don't know, like, we always still let's tax these people, right? That's what, that's a term a lot of people use. We need to tax them more. And maybe so, right? But sometimes with billionaires, I at least look at billionaires as like people that are create,

Starting point is 00:20:52 are more often than not creating jobs, creating environments where other people have the ability to make money. Like you have like a Larry Ellison. You have a lot of people that are Amazon workers, people that work at Oracle, people that work in data. You have Elon Musk. You have a lot of people that work for Tesla or, you know, that might work for his Uber type company if he gets it going.

Starting point is 00:21:17 but at least those people are creating jobs, a lot of them. Now, do they still deserve to have that much wealth or hold that much wealth? I don't think so. But then you also have, there's this argument like, let's get them to pay taxes. But then you have things that happen like in Minnesota, like with this Somalian fraud, right? Like you have this young man who's been going around, Nick Shirley, who's like kind of going door to door, like trick or treating about fraud kind of, right? And figuring it out. that almost is like, it's like why get people to pay taxes?

Starting point is 00:21:49 Who even cares about paying tax anymore if we're just going to let them slip out of the bottom? But the answer is fraud is disgusting and especially to steal money from hungry kids. If you have a program to feed hungry kids, you steal that money, that is probably as bad as it gets. And I think way back in the early 20s under Biden, they started an investigation, those people should be severely punished. I don't care if you're Somali, if you're green, you're blue, whatever you are. Right, I'm using the term Somali fraud, because that's kind of the term people are using. But anyway, that should be punished. That's disgusting behavior.

Starting point is 00:22:20 But, you know, understand, and I'm sure you do, it's fraud is not just in a child nutrition program in Minnesota. I, you know, deal with this a little bit. We are spending a trillion dollars a year on the military, okay? There is not one major defense contractor that has not been charged with fraud, frothing, you know, providing fraud to the United States government, their CEOs make huge amounts of compensation. They cannot even undergo an independent audit. They're the only government agencies.

Starting point is 00:22:55 So they don't even know what they own. Wow. It is so massive. But nobody, nobody, nobody. Republican, Democrat, independent, nobody doubts that there's massive fraud. There's fraud all over the place. Unfortunately, in this country,

Starting point is 00:23:07 and we've got to do our best to eliminate that. But at the end of the day, I mean, we've got to revitalize, in my view, We got to revitalize our democracy. We got to hold elected officials accountable. We got to run cost-effective, efficient government. But haven't been in government in a long time. Do you think that those things are actually possible or at a certain point are you like

Starting point is 00:23:28 start to, do you lose hope? Because as a regular person, it feels like we are, our political system works against us and it works for big business interests. And that's not even up for debate anymore. It feels like you're lucky to find a couple people who seem semi-human that work in politics, who have some semblance of a connection. At least they will talk about things that they feel like they really want to do or will show by some of their actions. But otherwise, it feels really, it feels pretty hopeless. Does it feel like that to you more and more?

Starting point is 00:24:03 Yes and no. Again, what I will, I'll give you some examples. This is my own political point of view. You agree with me. You don't. It's okay. Right here in New York City, we're sitting in New York right now. A year ago, there was a guy named Zeran Mamdani

Starting point is 00:24:20 who nobody had ever heard of. He's an assemblyman in New York. Nobody heard of him. He decided he wanted to run for mayor. He got, he was at 1% in the polls. He was taking on the Democratic establishment. Who the hell do you think he was? Taking on the Republican establishment.

Starting point is 00:24:36 Taking on the oligarchs in the city. People, front page New York Times, we're going to spend tens of millions of dollars to defeat this guy. Yeah. You know what he did? Not only, I mean, he's a brilliant guy himself and a very good politician, but he had 90,000-plus people in this city knocking on doors for him. So you ask me, am I optimistic?

Starting point is 00:24:58 Can we bring about change? I would say New York City is a pretty good example of what happens when people come. And he said, you know what, I'm going to make this city work for working people, not just the billionaire class. Amen. And he's just been, you know, an office of three or four, weeks. I think he's doing great. But you ask you about my optimism when I see 90,000 people going out on the streets volunteering for this guy and he's implementing. He was out,

Starting point is 00:25:26 you know, we talked about being on the nurses picket line today. He was there with me, standing with the nurses. So, yeah, and I've seen this other great members, you know, media doesn't do a great job, but you got dozens of young men and women in the House of Representatives, strong working class candidate, members of Congress. So, yeah, I am in that sense optimistic. On the other hand, you know, Donald Trump worries me very, very much. You remember, it's a funny story here. He was inaugurated just about a year ago.

Starting point is 00:25:57 And I was there. For whatever reason, I got pushed into the front row. I fell out of my chair. I was in a chair that broke. Yeah. Well, my chair didn't break. But I was almost as close to the Trump. Trump is, as I am to you now.

Starting point is 00:26:12 And you remember who was behind Trump at its inauguration? Oh, yeah. Who was up there? You had Zuckerberg. You had Elon. You had Bezos. You got it. Yeah, and it does another billionaire.

Starting point is 00:26:27 Okay. So you ask me where I get pessimistic is, you know, and literally this is not just saying this, it's true. I was thinking, you remember Abraham, Lincoln and Gettysburg, but he said, Lincoln went to Gettysburg, the scene of this horrible battle during the Civil War, tens of thousands of soldiers killed. A few days later, Lincoln goes to the battlefield, and he jots down some notes, and basically I'm paraphrasing, what he says is, you know, these soldiers who are fighting against slavery did not die in vain. They died so that we

Starting point is 00:27:04 will have a continue a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. And then I'm looking at what Trump in his inauguration, and I'm seeing these billionaires then. I'm thinking this is the government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, for the billionaires. And that's kind of how it's involved. I'm not surprised at that. I just, I'm not surprised that this is kind of where we've ended up, you know.

Starting point is 00:27:27 I don't know if this happened overnight. Like it doesn't feel like this happened overnight with Trump. It feels like this has happened more and more over time. At least Trump, it feels like to me this is messed up, but at least he brings his billionaires up there and shows them. off, you know? You're right. That is something that's kind of crazy about him. It's no secret that prize picks is America's number one sports picks app. And it's easy to use. That's what I enjoy about it. And it's got everything from players picks, team picks, and now culture picks. That's right. On top of

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Starting point is 00:30:22 Theo, this is where we've got to take a deep breath and accept our very serious responsibilities as citizens. Mm-hmm. Okay. and you think back, and I don't want to romanticize this, but you think back on American history. And, you know, we read all about this when we were in the third grade, you know.

Starting point is 00:30:41 Those were pretty brave guys, George Washington and Jefferson and all those guys, taken on the British Empire. You know, no one in the million years thought you could defeat the British Empire. For sure. And they did. And a lot of thousands died.

Starting point is 00:30:55 Thousands of them died. It was a pretty bloody situation. And then you think of it. about the civil war where very brave people said, you know what, slavery is a moral abomination. We're not going to accept it anymore. God knows what that civil war was about. Hundreds of thousands of people on both sides died.

Starting point is 00:31:13 And then you think about, and I think about this, December was at December 7, 1941, the United States was attacked the Pearl Harbor. We were totally unprepared. Do you know that? We were totally unprepared. We had to fight a war against Japan, a war against Hitler in Europe, right?

Starting point is 00:31:29 Totally unprepared. And yet the country came together. You know, instead of building cars, they built tanks and planes. Literally in two or three years, we had put the Nazis on the defense of. The war was one. So what I'm saying is this is perhaps the most difficult moment, in my view, in modern American history. And it's because Trump is an authoritarian who happens not to believe in democracy. And I think he's corrupt.

Starting point is 00:31:56 And it's tough. but we have won great battles in the past, and I believe if we do not allow our people to become divided up, we will win this as well. And not only defeat Trumpism, which I work very hard to do, but also create the kind of nation that we can become. Healthcare is a human right.

Starting point is 00:32:19 You know what? If you have some kids, children, they have a right to get all the education they need. We are not some poor third world country. Right. Right? All right. So we have got to have a vision of where we want to go as a nation. And I think if we fight for that vision, if we bring people together, we can succeed.

Starting point is 00:32:39 When you speak with guys like Mamdani, did you give, did you have any suggestions for him? Did you give him any advice? Well, actually, he followed my political career pretty closely. He studied what I did as mayor of Burlington back in the 80s, the campaign that I ran. Yeah, so we chat every now and then. I am extraordinarily impressed by his energy, his intelligence. He has a really good persona. He's out there with the people,

Starting point is 00:33:05 and I think he's going to do a really great job for the city of New York. Do you feel like the Democratic Party kind of takes him seriously as a future candidate for elections or for presidential elections? Now you are raising a sensitive issue. Is it a sensitive issue? Sensitive issue, sure of this. But yeah, is it, do they look at him as like a one-off, like an outsider? No. Look, what does it mean to be the establishment? The establishment means in a corrupt political system.

Starting point is 00:33:34 If you're the establishment, what you do, as you leave this, you get on the phone and you talk to your billionaire friends and say, look, I'm setting up a super pack. I want your help to, you know, win the congressional race in Arizona and California and da-da-da-da-da-da. Put in, I want you to put $30 million each, okay? I'll have $300 million. 10 of you put $300 million. I get the ads going next week. We're in business, right? That's crazy. Yeah. That's the way the system works. All right. And every now and then you have somebody like Mamdani who comes along says, I don't want your money. Not only they're not want your money, we're going to take you bastards on. Okay?

Starting point is 00:34:05 Do they want them? No. So the Democratic Party right now is kind of split. I am an independent, okay, to be honest with you. I've the longest serving independent. I caucus with the Democrats, but I'm an independent. Proud of it. They get really independent too when it's time to put you on the ballot, too, I notice.

Starting point is 00:34:23 Right. That's fair. You know, so I work with people like Alexandria, Casio Cortez and Primaloglio and Rochaunner, a bunch of other people. And we are trying to move the Democratic Party to be a party that stands with working class Americans and has the courage to take on powerful special interest. Now, there's another faction of the Democratic Party that, you know, doesn't like Trump for, I think, a lot of right reasons.

Starting point is 00:34:49 I agree with him. But basically cuddles up to the moneyed interests. And that's the division that we have. Mandani is part of the, movement that I've helped try to build, Alexandria as well, and others, many, many others. So that's the kind of the split that we're seeing within the Democratic Party. Got it. Do you feel like you've been in politics for a long time and you're growing in to be an adult now?

Starting point is 00:35:12 In your years? By an adult. I know. My grandchildren will tell you I'm not, but I don't know. But I just mean, do you feel like at some point, like it's time to start a new party, like, more than ever? Like, do you feel that, you know? Because all you, I mean, you have guys like, like, you talk about guys like Roecona. People are inspired by him.

Starting point is 00:35:31 Like, you know, like, I got to sit down with him. I like a lot of things he has to say. He's a internet bill of rights. I feel like he has like, you know, he's a forward thinker. Yes, he is. Smart guy. Yeah. And so I feel like if you got a band of people, it's not that hard to find the people that people love.

Starting point is 00:35:45 Good. All right. Have I thought about it? Yeah, like for about 400 years. That's how long. That's how you thought about it. All right. All right.

Starting point is 00:35:53 All right. But, all right, here is, this is the reality. that I have to deal with every day. In my view, the Republican Party, which used to be a conservative party, a small government type party, has become under Trump kind of a right-wing extremist party. Okay, there are some exceptions, to be sure.

Starting point is 00:36:13 But that's kind of where it is. Democratic Party, as I've mentioned to you, their establishment more or less wants to protect the status quo, and then there are those of us who want to bring about fundamental changes in the economic and political. life of the country. So that's where you are. Now, starting the third party is something when I was mayor of the city of Burlington, in a sense, we did. Okay, I took on, I defeated a

Starting point is 00:36:38 Democratic mayor. Yeah. And so we had Republicans, we had the Democrats. That must have felt awesome, was it? You know, it felt pretty good. A guy who had been mayor for 10 years and nobody thought we could win. We won by 10 votes. Oh, yeah. And by the way, I say that to people, if you think it's hard, you could do it. We did it. All right. That was a long time ago. And we started kind of unofficially, we called it independent party of sorts. So it can be done. And there are strong independence today running for office who have a chance to win. But you ask about starting a party within today's political climate, it is very hard.

Starting point is 00:37:22 For example, you want to start a party in many states, you're going to have to get enormous numbers of signatures in every county in the state, to even get on the ballot because the two-party system does not want you on the ballot. Of course. Okay? And you know, you likely don't have a lot of money

Starting point is 00:37:38 to do all that stuff. So it ain't easy, but there are people who are thinking about it. Right now where my energy is is to transform the Democratic Party. You know, when many years ago on the Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the Harry Truman, the Democratic Party

Starting point is 00:37:53 was considered to be the party of the American working class. unfortunately that has changed over the years i want once again to have a democratic party which has the guts that stand up to the billionaire class and create an economy that works everybody and not just the very rich you know we hear a lot about um the you know we've interviewed some of these tech CEOs and billionaires really um and they talk about this kind of a universal basic income right but it sort of feels like it's led by the tech industry and if that you're you know that gets created, that's not the same thing as one that's led, I feel like, by the government.

Starting point is 00:38:31 Does that make sense to you? Yes. Because one that subsidized by the government is more like it doesn't feel as controlled. Well, I guess it does. It just feels like controlled by two different groups. Again, what I want to see, and I suspect you want to see, is you want to see. Let's not use the word, the government is not Tesla Corporation. The government theoretically in a democratic society is you.

Starting point is 00:38:54 right and to some degree you know you don't like people you can get rid of them right and our job is to create a more democratic with small D not a big D small D where government is responsive to the people but I want to say a word on this the issue that you just raised I have over the last six months become very very concerned about AI and robotics and there are a lot of reasons why. Number one, the easiest, I think most apparent reason is what these data centers. I don't know, are you following these data centers?

Starting point is 00:39:31 Oh, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, what are the side effects? They're taking over, like, they're absorbing water in a lot of communities. I know they just built one in Louisiana near, like, Basque in Louisiana. Yeah, and they're not even going to end up keeping that many jobs for people once they're open. There will be a decent number of construction jobs. Right. But after that, it's not going to be many.

Starting point is 00:39:48 Right. To run the place like almost nobody. Security guards, basically. Exactly, exactly. And the result of that is it drains, as you've just said, scarce, in some cases, water resources, and it raises electric bills. Okay, so that's number one.

Starting point is 00:40:06 Number two, to me, even the big issue. Let me quote, I wrote this down here. Okay. Elon Musk, our good friend, right? Musk, now, when you understand, to understand AI and robotics, understand that the very handful of the very richest people on earth are investing hundreds of billions of dollars. Okay?

Starting point is 00:40:28 That's Mr. Musk, Mr. Bezos, Mr. Ellison, Mr. Gates, and others. Okay, these are the richest guys on Earth. Now, why are they doing it? Do you think they're doing it to say up nights and they're staying up nights worrying about working people? You think they're investing hundreds of billions of dollars to say, How do we make this world a better place for working people? Between you and me, I don't think so. These guys have huge money,

Starting point is 00:40:57 but getting back to the point you made earlier, you know, it's not enough that they're worth hundreds of billions of dollars. They even want more and more wealth and more power. Okay, so let's talk about what are the implications of AI and robotics. Okay. Well, they're going to take away jobs, so then people won't have purpose. You got it. All right, good.

Starting point is 00:41:14 You hit the nail on the head. Let's start off in that one. And now, the answer is nobody knows exactly, all right? No one can predict what happens tomorrow next year, five years. This is what Elon Musk, leader of this whole effort says, quote, I'm quoting Mr. Musk. Quote, AI and robots will replace all jobs. Working will be optional. End of quote.

Starting point is 00:41:38 And he later said, yeah, you want to do a garden to the backyard for a hobby. That's great, but you don't need to do that. Bill Gates, worth of your 100 billion, heavily invested in this, Microsoft. Humans, quote, won't be needed for most things. End of quote. Dario Amodi, head of Anthropic, quote, half of all entry-level jobs will disappear. And there are other estimates out there that we're talking about over a period of years. Nobody knows exactly when tens of millions of jobs in the next decade disappearing.

Starting point is 00:42:10 So you tell me what happens when tens of millions of jobs that people now make an income from disappear? What happens to those people? Well, I think there's some of what I've heard is that some of these same companies would then offer some share. It's kind of, it's a vague terminology a lot of times of a universal basic income token or something. Really? No kidding. I agree. And how much you're getting?

Starting point is 00:42:36 I have no idea. And who's going to determine that? No idea, dude. It sounds like you got like one 11th of a Rubik's Cube every two weeks or something. But also, I think if you could get to a place where it was like that, and people did feel a sense of some sense of purpose or peace or part of something, again, it could be, there's a chance, it could be something beautiful. All right.

Starting point is 00:43:00 There's a chance. All right. Good point. I agree with you. But my questions would be, do we just end up working for these companies that are paying us, this UBI, what's the psychological effects of it, right? Like, what's the long-term effects of it? And then do we still have a sense of individuality if we don't have exactly anything to do, you know?

Starting point is 00:43:23 Or do we just turn into those kids from Wally? Can you bring that kid up? Yeah, there you go. Yeah, like a young Burke Kreischer kind of there. All right, but then what we need to do is to take a deep breath. Because this thing is moving really fast. I don't know. Have you seen some of these robots on the internet?

Starting point is 00:43:42 Yeah, unfortunately, some sites I shouldn't have been on Bernie. Be honest with you, but yes. All right. I mean, they are moving very, very rapidly. Yeah, a couple, yeah. The ones from Atlanta are for sure, I'll tell you that. And, you know, in Amazon, I think half of the workers have, I'm not sure about this. I think half already have been replaced.

Starting point is 00:44:01 Well, yeah, especially if you start thinking that Waymo cars are going to pick you up, it's just like, what are people, there's going to be a really tough, does anybody have a plan for the first two years of this thing? You got it. You got it. Okay. You're hitting the nail on the head here. The point is this thing is moving at revolutionary speed. And I can tell you absolutely and positively, as a member of the United States Senate,

Starting point is 00:44:23 that Congress is in no way prepared to deal with us. You know, the United States got attacked tomorrow by some enemy. You know, we got a large military, da-da-da-da, they know what to do. Ain't nobody been thinking about how to respond to this extraordinary monumental change that's hitting the American. So I have proposed, and I got criticized for this every day, a moratorium on data centers. Why am I doing that?

Starting point is 00:44:50 Well, number one, I want to protect people's communities. That's number one, electric rails, water, and all that. But also, I've got to say, got to take a deep breath. Your point, what the hell is happening? Yeah. Are we prepared if tens of millions of people lose their jobs in the next decade? All right. What happens?

Starting point is 00:45:05 How do they stay alive? So the economics is one thing, but I want to take it a step further. And this is, now you're into crazy world, okay? This is science fiction, except it ain't science fiction. Yeah, we're here. That's right, we're here. Okay. So you understand this AI now, you know what you know based on what you've read, what you've seen, your life experience, right?

Starting point is 00:45:27 Me the same. Every human being the same. These AIs have absorbed all knowledge. Every book that's been written, every mathematical formula, every physics proposition, They got it. That's what they got. And what worries, not just me. And this is, do you remember, what was it, 2001, the movie?

Starting point is 00:45:52 Do you ever see that movie? Oh, yeah, Space Odyssey? Yes, Space Odyssey. All right. And you remember, and this is done many years ago, Hal is the computer that runs the spaceship. And one day the guy says, Hal, I'd like you to do this.

Starting point is 00:46:04 And Hal says, well, sorry, I'm not going to do it. Rebellion, okay? Everyone's all, really, you know, big joke, funny. I had a public meeting in Georgetown a few months ago with a guy named Jeffrey Hinton, really nice guy. Yeah, he's the godfather of AI, right? Right. He's the guy, he's been studying the issue.

Starting point is 00:46:21 Alleged, yeah. He's been studying the issue for decades. He got a Nobel Prize in physics, okay? It's a big deal. There he is right there. I've heard a couple of his speeches. Yeah, and this is what he says. He says there is no question in his mind

Starting point is 00:46:35 that at some point, sooner than later, AI will be smarter than human beings. And it is not science fiction to worry about whether or not AI is going to communicate with each other in a language that people don't know. Right. Ain't going to be English.

Starting point is 00:46:54 And that they may see the human race as an impediment to their progress. Okay? You with me? All right. That's the doomsday scenario. So that the computer's like, God, these people are slowing us down.

Starting point is 00:47:07 You got it. Okay. Now, again, you know, some people, I mean, I think nobody thinks that that is crazy anymore. Some people say, well, you know, it's kind of unlikely, maybe five to one, maybe 10 to one. But it is incredibly risky, and they don't have the safeguards to protect us. All right. Now let me give you something that I am seeing today and you're seeing. And that is, we are living in a country with a lot of emotional distress, okay, for a variety of reasons.

Starting point is 00:47:34 A lot of young people are turning to a. for emotional companionship. Okay. I broke up with my girlfriend. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Okay. And, you know, what do I do? Or, you know, my mom is safe.

Starting point is 00:47:47 Da-da-da-da-da-da. So we're seeing people not relating to other human beings, but relating to AI. What is the long-term implications of that? I mentioned earlier that robots are now treating patients. Musk talks about creating millions of robots in the next few years. is through Tesla. Oh, it's Orwellian at some point. It's this very thing where it's like, do we, would we even,

Starting point is 00:48:14 here's my question, would we even notice the day when we switch over from thinking that we have control and we are making choices for ourselves to the day where we are just following along what the computer says. Do you think we would notice? Maybe not.

Starting point is 00:48:29 Because they would create the environment. It's, you know. Dang, Bernie. It's pretty crazy stuff. It's crazy. And then you got even things like warfare, okay? You know, right now, to some degree at least,

Starting point is 00:48:44 certainly not in the Ukraine, but, or in Gaza, but to some degree, political leaders are constrained about going to war, because they don't want to be telling the parents of their young men and women who died in war, right? Well, every week there seems like a new place that we're trying to attack or bully or take control over. We get to that one in a minute. But generally, what happens?

Starting point is 00:49:05 What happens now if I'm president of the United States I don't have to send your kids off the war. Right. I send robots off the war. What does that mean? In terms of farm, right? Am I going to go invading every country in the world? I don't have to tell any parent that the kid was lost, right?

Starting point is 00:49:19 Yeah, you could sit up at night in your White House or whatever and just use a remote control. You got it. And no loss of life. Right. All right. So what does this mean? Not here, not for us anyway. Right.

Starting point is 00:49:27 Right. Exactly. So what does this mean about international instability? It's incredible. Well, it's going to be not much communication anymore. If someone doesn't know if a drone just showed up in the middle of the night and did a bunch of horrible things to their country. You got it. All right. So all that I'm saying, and I think this stuff is moving very, very quickly. It is being pushed by the wealthiest people in the world who, in my view,

Starting point is 00:49:52 could care less about ordinary people who want more wealth and more power. Now, they deny all that stuff. That's my view. I think we've got to slow it down and ask the question that you ask. All right. If AI can, and it can, do some good medical diagnoses, do some good blood testing. Is that a good thing? It is a good thing. If you're working in a crap job in a factory, right? You know, and AI can increase worker productivity so you could work 20 hours a week rather than 40 hours a week. Is that a good thing? I think it is. Et cetera, et cetera. Right. If the company then shares some of the profits that the company is making with the workers. So that's the issue. It's a very, very good thing.

Starting point is 00:50:32 simple proposition. Who is AI and robotics going to work for? Does it work to improve human life? Or does it work to make the billionaires even richer? That's the question that we've got to focus on. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely getting in it. It's definitely, yeah. And I would urge you on the show, keep talking about it, bring knowledgeable people on, you know, I have my views, other people have different views. But I'll tell you, this is, this is monumental. stuff that we are unprepared for, we need to discuss it a lot. Well, it feels like, I mean, it feels like we're not going to be, I don't know, it starts to feel a little bit hopeless that we're not going to have things that could

Starting point is 00:51:15 change it down the line. Or it starts to feel like with AI stuff that we're getting there too late. But also with AI starts to feel like, remember the internet? Remember Y2K? Like the people thought like it was going to be crazy or everybody was going to start, you know, everything was going to disappear, that a website name was going to be the biggest thing. never amounted really to anything. Right.

Starting point is 00:51:34 So the answer is, we don't know. We don't know. I mean, that's fair enough. So I'm not, you know, I'm telling you what my fears are. You know, 100% and I think those are a lot of people's fears, you know. And you know what? They can put up an AI figure that looks exactly like you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:51:49 That sounds exactly like you that is saying something you have never said. That's already been done to me. Yeah. Okay. And it could be done pretty easily. Which raises, you know, you know, come in election time, you're going to see somebody. Wow. Why is they saying that?

Starting point is 00:52:03 Can't vote for that guy. Turns out to be a total fraud, right? Yeah. Okay. Do you feel like it's a time where we just need to be in the streets more than ever, where people need to be revolting?

Starting point is 00:52:12 Do you think it takes a revolution to change? Like, what's really going to change? It doesn't seem like voting is going to get us there. Now, I do like the idea that you have a guy like Mamdani that inspires you and makes you feel hope

Starting point is 00:52:23 and you feel like it's different and he's against an establishment, even if it feels like it's a local one, whatever that is, that he feels like it's different, right? I agree. That is exciting. that is exhilarating.

Starting point is 00:52:33 But is that, is a guy like that, is like a Tom Sawyer like him? Can he go through all the rapids of the like dirty Mississippi that is fucking politics and get us to somewhere new? My body is, he's not a savior. He's going to be a good mayor. We need a hundred men, Donnie's. We need what I call a political revolution. And that is, you know, what the establishment does.

Starting point is 00:52:57 You know, they're very greedy people. They could care less about ordinary people. more wealth and power. But the ugliest thing that they do is through the media that they own, et cetera, et cetera, is they tell people that they are powerless and they have no power. And the answer is, when people are organized and stand together, they do have power. And that's what we're trying to do all over this country. Bring people, not allow Trump and his friends, I don't care if you're black, you're white, you're gay, you're straight, who cares? You know, you're Muslim, you're Jewish, whatever you may be. Let's stand together. Because, again, I've been all over this country.

Starting point is 00:53:32 People understand that health care is a right. They want a good education system. They don't think they should be 1% owning more wealth than the bottom, 93%. They're concerned about climate change. They don't want this country involved in endless wars. Are there disagreements on abortion and other issues? There are. But by and large, you'd be surprised.

Starting point is 00:53:52 I was in a few months ago, I went to Mingo County, West Virginia. You know where that is? I don't know where it is. I've spent some time in West Virginia, though. I like it. Yeah, I love where it. It's a beautiful state, the poor state. I went to the county,

Starting point is 00:54:06 you know, Trump won, Trump won West Virginia by over 70% of the vote. Okay? I went to the county where he did the best. He got 74% of the vote. And I went to that county precisely because he got 74%. I want to hear what people were thinking about.

Starting point is 00:54:25 Walk into a meeting. Wasn't the largest rally we ever did. Four or 500 people in the middle of nowhere. This is nowhere. That's it. There's a picture of it. A lot of people thought you were probably giving away free Ben and Jerry's out there too. Nope.

Starting point is 00:54:39 And there it is. There's a picture of the... Oh, that's nice. Yeah, a big gym there. And it turns out, this is Trump country. He's a decent people. They're worried about their kids. A veteran up there.

Starting point is 00:54:53 Worryed about the needs of veterans. You know, mom worried about a baby. So I'm not saying, you know, Vermont's a liberal state. West Virginia is a conservative. I'm not saying that there aren't differences of the opinion. There are. Oh, yeah. But you'd be surprised.

Starting point is 00:55:06 This is the good news that as Americans, we share a lot of common values. We know that so many people fought and died for democracy. What does democracy means? It means that just because I'm the president, I don't have the right to shut you up. I don't have the right to politically prosecute you because you're against me. Yeah. You disagree with me? Fine.

Starting point is 00:55:26 I'll argue with you. You beat me in an election. Fine. I'm unhappy. That's the way life goes, right? All right. See, the American people don't want a few billion, few people billionaires controlling the economy. They don't want an authoritarian society. They want an economy that works for all. Those are the common threads I think that we can build a political movement around.

Starting point is 00:55:46 Well, I don't think people care if they're, but I think people less and less even associate with a party anymore. I think that's happened in the past two years. That's that, to me, feels like it's happened more than ever. It feels like how to, like, if you've been looking at like the fraud, case like in Minneapolis. And I know it's like we don't know all the information about it. But it's like the fact that a vigilante journalist type of kid, you know, this Nick Shirley kid has to go door to door and that he's even bringing that like whether or not everything he's saying is true or factual. I don't know. My understanding on that issue. And again, I haven't studied it. The senator from Vermont. But I think there was massive fraud in terms of

Starting point is 00:56:27 child nutrition. Okay. That's absolutely right. I believe that was. investigated on the on the on the Biden's attorney general in 20 21 actually I believe dozens of people were arrested so it is a real issue and it's ugly and it's disgusting because again stealing money from hungry children I don't know that you could do worse than that yeah it's like how do but if but this childcare thing I think is largely exaggerated I don't think you know I think you know you could take a a camera and go someplace and the child care center has closed the subject.

Starting point is 00:57:03 Oh, nobody's there. Right. I don't think the child care is an issue. The nutrition issue is real. Yeah, I agree. I agree that there's some parts of it that it's like it's tough to know. And if you just see a clip, it's tough to know what the full reality is, right? I agree.

Starting point is 00:57:15 But the thing to me, well, there's two things. One is that we're getting to a place where vigilante journalism, where somebody hitting the streets, knocking on doors, like you're saying whether it's to get somebody to vote, to get somebody to open their ideas to a new thought, to make sure that something that their tax dollars is going towards is going to, like that is becoming more important than ever. And I think that's going to start happening more than ever.

Starting point is 00:57:40 But two, that it's like that why didn't our gut, why, like, it feels, it makes us feel as as regular people like, dude, we can't even trust that our government's going to figure this out for us, that there's money just falling out of the bottles here. Look, the answer is yes. And then that makes people cannot care about either. either party. That's what I'm saying. It's just like... But let's put this thing in context. Okay.

Starting point is 00:58:05 The answer is what you're saying is true. Period. Okay. And I'm not yelling at you about it. I know, I know, I know. Okay, good. All right, but context. You got 340 million people in this country. Guess what? A lot of them are dishonest. Yeah. Yeah. There are politicians who are dishonest. There are business people who are dishonest. There are media people who are dishonest. That is the reality. Right. I mentioned you before. We spend a trillion dollars a year on the military, every single major

Starting point is 00:58:29 defense contractor has been involved in fraud. That's what they do. The insurance companies, every day, they're ripping off people, drug companies lying every single day. You got fossil fuel companies saying, oh, carbon emissions don't cause climate change. Total absolute lie. You have the tobacco companies.

Starting point is 00:58:47 Oh, you can smoke nine packs a day. Ain't going to cause you can. So look, fraud exists. We've got to fight it wherever we can. In government in the private sector, no argument. And you're right. When people see it in government, it discourages them. but you got to put it in a broader context.

Starting point is 00:59:02 You have, for example, a social security system, 99 plus percent of the checks that go out, go out to people who need them. So all that I'm saying is when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of people, yeah, you can find an aberration, you can find fraud, put it into context. Got it.

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Starting point is 01:00:34 What am I really going to do this time? Not dream, not talk about, do. If you've been sitting on an idea, a little side thing, a weird passion, something you keep telling your buddy about, but never start. Shopify makes it way less intimidating to finally try. Whether you want to do a two-story lemonade stand or you want to make homemade frisbys in your oven at the house, Shopify is the move. They've got a ton of website templates, but they don't feel cookie cutter. You pick one, tweak it, make it yours.

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Starting point is 01:01:47 And that's where therapy can help. You know, it could be a part of an old relationship that you're still tugging along. It could be anger at an old boss. It could be financial concerns or worries, fears. Could be a lot of things. Better help can help. Better help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms,

Starting point is 01:02:15 having served over 5 million people globally. you can't step into a lighter version of yourself without leaving behind what's been weighing you down. Therapy can help you clear space. It has for me. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash Theo. That's betterh-e-l-p.com slash t-H-E-O. One thing that's really kind of changed a lot of people's,

Starting point is 01:02:40 like young people's opinions too, I think is Trump's relationship and our funding of Israel, especially during like the Gaza conflict, right? It was like one of the first times in my life where you got to see, you know, you saw children getting killed. You saw a lot of,

Starting point is 01:02:58 and I know that there was conflict between those Palestine and Israel and those October 7th. I know that I know the history of it. But it felt like Trump like just sort of went with Netanyahu on whatever was he wanted to do there. And it felt also like as a regular American, like we were supposed to be the ones to go help in some instance. I think a lot of young people are kind of discouraged about our relationship with Israel and what does that mean like, especially like with APEC and influencing our elections and stuff like that.

Starting point is 01:03:29 Let me just say a word on that because it's an issue I've been deeply involved in. On October 7th, Hamas committed a real atrocity. I mean, they went in, they invaded Israel. They killed, I was a 1,200 men, women, and children. A lot of kids committed sexual abuse. which are disgusting. They were a terrorist organization. Israel had a right to respond, like any government, you know, that's attacked. But Israel did not have the right to go to war against the entire Palestinian people. There are 2.2 million people in Gaza. That's not a lot of people, right?

Starting point is 01:04:04 There are 9 million people in New York City, or 8.5 million people. That's all there are two and a and they're poor people. Over the last several years, Israel has killed over 70,000, mostly women, children, and the elderly. It has injured, I think, 160,000 or even more than that. So over 10% of the population has been killed or wounded. Okay, again, often children, the elderly. Israel stopped humanitarian aid coming in so that children were starving to death in violation of all international law. And the United States, under Biden, and under Trump,

Starting point is 01:04:45 continued to fund a guy who I consider to be a war criminal. Okay, war is disgusting business. Well, the ICC voted a war. Didn't the ICC say he was a war criminal? They did. Except for America. Yeah. So look, war is a disgusting business.

Starting point is 01:05:00 But out of World War II, you know, the Geneva Convention, What they said is, look, war is disgusting, but you don't starve children in a war. You want to kill an enemy, you kill an enemy. It's this horrible business. We want to eliminate war. But there are rules of war, engagement. Starving children is under any definition, a horror.

Starting point is 01:05:21 And that's what happened. Bombing all of the entire, people don't realize this. Not only killing people, virtually every medical facility has been bombed, schools have been bombed. water systems, waste water, the place has been laid desolate. Those are war crimes. And I did my best, and with some success, I managed to turn around. It started, the war started, almost everybody would say, oh, you know, Israel, what Israel, Netanyahu?

Starting point is 01:05:47 That has changed. And your point is very important that a lot of the impetus for those changes in Congress came from young people. And not just, you know, people on the left, you got conservative, Republican kids who are saying, you know what, not a great idea to fund Netanyahu. Yeah, how much control do you feel like, like, what is that relationship with Israel like? Because I think it seems that, because of some of the atrocities, it makes a lot of Americans question why we fund Israel.

Starting point is 01:06:17 Why do we give money to Israel? And the answer is getting back to a corrupt campaign finance system. If you check the record, and again, it's not just APEC, it is the crypto industry, it is the insurance companies, it is the drug companies. but APAC is a significant funder of, I would imagine, hundreds of members of Congress. So as it's customary, you're there, we'll send you a check for 10,000 bucks. If you're a leader, we may make it over a period of years,

Starting point is 01:06:45 hundreds of thousands of dollars, you're in the club, you're gonna be pro-Israel. But having said that, we're seeing, for all the reasons that you have suggested, we're seeing more and more people saying, APEC, thank you, I don't want your money, actually, because the people in my district, are not happy with what Netanyahu is doing.

Starting point is 01:07:04 So I think we're turning that around a little bit. But to my mind, I have long advocated not another bloody nickel to go to the Netanyahu government. But it's not just Netanyahu, switch gear a little bit. In that part of the world, you got Saudi Arabia. You know, run Saudi Arabia? You got a guy named Mohamed bin Salman. Okay. Remember, Muhammad?

Starting point is 01:07:26 According to American intelligence, Muhammad killed... Right here. Yeah, they call him pizza outhead. There was a guy named Jamal Khashagi. That name mean anything to you? Yeah. Remember him? He was a reporter that got killed.

Starting point is 01:07:39 He was a washing. There he is. That was under his rule, right? That's right. So what the intelligence agency said that the leader of Saudi Arabia, Mr. Muhammad bin Salman, murdered. This guy, Khashagi went into an embassy someplace. Was it a Turkey or somewhere?

Starting point is 01:07:54 I don't know where it was. Walked into an embassy, came back, carved up, and put into a suitcase. Okay? Dismembered. he murdered and yet when bin Salman came to the United States

Starting point is 01:08:08 do you remember a few months ago White House rolled out the red carpet we are the Marines there welcoming him why was that why does a guy who the American intelligence says is a murder a guy by the way who runs the country you try to protest

Starting point is 01:08:24 this rule can't even do it huh good luck to you I mean thousands of people are in jail, they execute people, there's no dissent. Even when, like, when Netanyahu came and he pulled his chair out for him, remember that? That's the kind of thing to people, to, like, regular people, it's like, what are we doing? It feels like our intelligence agency does not work for us.

Starting point is 01:08:42 All right, but it's not a question of intelligence. They did work. Why is it that Musk is investing huge amounts of money in Saudi Arabia? Why is it that Trump loves this guy? Why is it that Saudi Arabia is now allowing a Trump family to build, I don't know what, it's resorts, golf courses, whatever the hell they do there? Okay. Why is that? And the answer is, and this will upset some people, it is my view. That is the kind of government that Trump likes. It is an authoritarian government.

Starting point is 01:09:09 They don't tolerate dissent. It is run by the... That family happens to be the wealthiest family in the world. Bin Salman. Bin Salman? Yeah, they are, I think, combined, not, you know, they're probably richer than Musk. And those, and meanwhile, we are attacking Europe every day. You know, we're going to invade Greenland because Trump didn't get a prize or something. I mean, that's already crazy. That is really crazy. I mean, for a second, it is, it's so crazy sometimes. You got to laugh at it. You have to laugh at it.

Starting point is 01:09:38 It's like we've had police officers on and they say sometimes, you know, there'll be murders inside, there'll be victims, people have been shot and murder, horrible things. And you'll see us in the front yard laughing. And it's like, because sometimes you have to, you have to step outside of the absurdity and laugh for a second. All that I'm saying. And this size, it's a whole longer discussion.

Starting point is 01:09:57 but it used to be that the United States was a strong advocate of democracy. We became a model for countries all over the world saying we would like to be like the United States, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence was an inspiration to a lot of people. And now you've got the President of the United States having his best friend, a dictator in Saudi Arabia, supporting a war criminal in Israel, Mr. Netanyahu, et cetera, et cetera. And by the way, going to war. if you like, hopefully, not literally, figuratively at least, with Europe.

Starting point is 01:10:31 Why is that? Europe is a democratic, democratic governments. Some are conservative, some are progressive, but they are elected by the beagle. Trump does not like democracy. So that worries me very, very much. I maybe one or two more questions if we could. Okay, great. That sounds good. Recently with the ice raids that have happened in Minnesota, and they're happening everywhere, right?

Starting point is 01:10:49 I mean, it's become a big thing. And for me, a lot of it is in response to, you know, there was such a border policy that was allowing a lot of extra people here, right? Extra people that were not meeting up with their, like their probation officer, not probation officers, but they're like attendance officers at times, that sort of situation, right? So it resulted, it seems like in this situation, we had to hire a lot extra ICE agents, some of them even unqualified. Anyway, it's left us in a unique place in America right now, but also just another place where people in the streets are having to figure things out. Right.

Starting point is 01:11:22 And we are all the ones fighting about it online. Let me briefly tell you my view. People agree with me will not agree with me. I agree with you that our border security was weak. Okay? There is no excuse. All right. My dad came from Poland, you know, other people's parents came from all over the world. All right, you come to it. There are reasons why people have kind of tried to slip into the United States. 99% of the times it's poverty, it's violence, drug violence, and wherever it is Mexico, Guatemala or whatever. All right, but that's illegal. and it should be prohibited. We need borders, strong borders.

Starting point is 01:11:59 We need an immigration process. In my view, okay, that's number one. Number two, we have between 10 and 14 million undocumented people in this country right now. No one knows exactly. Yeah. All right. But the vast majority of those people work hard and obey American law right now. During COVID, by the way, those were the people who were working in the

Starting point is 01:12:25 meatpacking plants. Those are the people who got a lot of the virus. Those are the people who died. They kept the economy going in many respects. In my view, and I think what most Americans agree with, if you have lived in this guy, even if you came across the border illegally, but if you have obeyed the rules of America, you haven't committed crimes, you're working hard, you're raising your family, you need a path towards citizenship as part of comprehensive immigration reform. And by the way, given the fact that we have worker shortages all over this country, we need those work. Okay? So that's, I think, what we need.

Starting point is 01:12:58 Especially skilled labor we need right now. That's right. That's right. And a lot of these people are doing important work, keeping the economy going. What Trump has done is in this big, beautiful bill of his greatly expanded funding for ICE. And in my view, what he is doing is not just trying to get, and by the way, it used to be, we're trying to get the criminals out of America.

Starting point is 01:13:22 Remember that? Yeah. You know, rapists and the murderers. We're well beyond that. Now you're knocking on doors of American citizens. You're arresting Americans. The arresting people have never had. Oh, now that they're finding anybody that makes good top us.

Starting point is 01:13:33 You got it. That's right. That's exactly right. Okay. And I think this is what frightens me. What Trump is using ICE for now is a domestic military operation. And it's part of this intimidation. And if you stand up and that woman in Minnesota Good is the name?

Starting point is 01:13:53 Yeah, Renee Good. Renee good, all right? I saw that video, you know. You don't shoot somebody in the head who is in that call. And I think it's Trump saying, I have the power, and we got domestic army. It's called ICE, and we're going to go out there, and we're going to arrest, and we're going to intimidate.

Starting point is 01:14:10 And part of that, this is what Trumpism is about. It's intimidation. All right, you're in the media. You're CBS. You say something, I'm going to sue you, you know? Theo, you say something I don't like. I may sue you. you know, and I don't like Venice.

Starting point is 01:14:24 Well, I'm going to, you know, send in the troops. I got the power and I'm going to use it. I really, that scares me because that's what authoritarianism is about. So do we, should we deal with immigration through comprehensive reform? Absolutely. I think that's what the American people want. Do we want guys with masks around their face, dragging people out of their apartments, out of their cars?

Starting point is 01:14:48 You know, I don't think so. I don't think that's what the American people want. want more and more resentment to that. Yeah, and we're in a tough spot too because we see things more now, right? We see all of it. Yes, you do. We see it. So before you would just hear about her, you would know it was a plan.

Starting point is 01:15:01 That's right. But you didn't have the visual effect of it and how the visual effect makes you feel. Cell phones have revolutionized politics and that. So everybody got a cell phone can take a video. And I think that's one of the side effect. It likes to, like, I agree, like Trump has an authoritarian energy, right? There's this, you know, and there's positive parts about that and there's negative parts about that. I don't agree that there's anything possible about authoritarianism.

Starting point is 01:15:24 Well, maybe authoritarianism. I think somebody that's like somebody that... Decisiveness, yes. That's what I mean then. Decisiveness, yes. Making bold decisions, yes. Yes. Authoritarianism disregarding the constitution and the rule of law.

Starting point is 01:15:37 Sorry, no. I agree. I agree with that. And that's what I meant. One last question before you go, Mr. Sanders. And Nick, will you bring up those CEOs one more time? I just want to see the faces of those good gentlemen who have made 15 million, allegedly,

Starting point is 01:15:50 I believe in 26 million allegedly as well. Not allegedly. I think that's the fact. Oh, there you go, Bernie. I'll take that. While nurses, nurses are trying to make sure that their health care doesn't get discontinued at certain points. And just real quick, people can get involved by donating to the NYSNA hardship fund. And we'll put the link to that and where you can show up to support the strike.

Starting point is 01:16:14 It's going on every day right now. There's one other big concern that people have is that there, is with the Epstein stuff, that there are people really protecting pedophiles. Do you think that's as big of a thing as people think, or do you think it's more of a political kickball that gets kicked around a lot? Hard to say, we don't know.

Starting point is 01:16:34 All I can tell you is when Trump ran for office, what did he say? Going to release all, underline all the files. Yeah. Okay. I think you should. And I think the thing about the Epstein files is it touches on everything we've talked about it,

Starting point is 01:16:47 is there is a sense we're living in two worlds. You go out, you know, you go through a red light, or you do something stupid, get drunk and drive, you're going to be arrested, right? Right. But if you're a very, very wealthy person, are you doing some really disgusting things with women and girls? Well, you're rich and you're powerful and you have to pay the price.

Starting point is 01:17:05 With children, that's the fear. It's like you say, we can't even protect our children. Right. But, and these guys get away. That's the, it's a two-tier system. You get punished. You're an average person. You're a billionaire.

Starting point is 01:17:16 You can do horrible, disgusting things. Hey, no problem. That's what it is. So my own view is Trump said release all the files. Release all the files. We should release him. Did you, but you never knew it. But when, like it was, but you don't hear anything super that we don't know by being in,

Starting point is 01:17:31 by being in your position. All you hear is speculation, you know. And I don't want to engage in that speculation. Just release all the information and let people decide. Let people decide. All right. Yep. One more time.

Starting point is 01:17:41 Bring those CEOs up. I just want to see them. And Bernie Sanders, thank you so much. And, yeah, I just appreciate your time. Well, it's my pleasure. and thank you very much for the work you're doing. We're trying, man. You know, it's a, you know, I'm learning as I go.

Starting point is 01:17:56 Look, Theo, the important point is you're honestly, you know, you know, you and I can agree or not agree. But having serious discussion about serious issues is exactly what the country needs right now. Yeah. Well, thanks, man. Yeah, I do care. I know that. I know you do.

Starting point is 01:18:12 Now, I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm afraid. I must be. I'll share this piece of mind I found I can feel it.

This Past Weekend - #635 - Sen. Bernie Sanders

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