This Past Weekend - E311 Tony Mandarich

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

One time lauded as the greatest offensive lineman prospect in NFL History, Tony Mandarich fell deep into the grip of addiction after being drafted 2nd overall in the 1989 draft by the Green Bay Packers. The addiction destroyed what once seemed destined to be a legendary career, but after washing out of the league and hitting rock bottom, Tony was able to get sober, get back into the league, and transform his life. Theo and Tony sit down to swap stories about injecting steroids, mainlining pain killers, burning bridges, and mending relationships.   “Get That Hitter” Merch now available! https://theovonstore.com Follow Tony: https://instagram.com/tonymandarich New Merch: https://theovonstore.com    This episode is brought to you by…   Magic Mind Use code THEO at https://magicmind.co for 10% off   Faherty https://fahertybrand.com/theo for 25% off   Shipstation Try for free for 60 days at https://shipstation.com/ and use promo code Theo   Music “Shine” - Bishop Gunn http://bit.ly/Shine_BishopGunn    Hit the Hotline  985-664-9503   Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: http://bit.ly/TPW_VideoHotline      Find Theo Website: https://theovon.com  Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend  Twitter: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiEKV_MOhwZ7OEcgFyLKilw   -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Producer Nick https://instagram.com/realnickdavis     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today's episode is brought to you by Grey Block Pizza Grey Block Pizza 1811 Pico Boulevard in Los Angeles. If you want pizza, then you want Grey Block Get that hitter, baby Today's episode is also brought to you by Magic Mind Flow state now comes in a bottle and flow state. That's not a woman that you met somewhere. Maybe outside of Detroit Flow state now comes in a bottle matcha not tropics Adoptogens and a hint of honey. It's the ultimate nemesis to procrastination Magic Mind

Get Magic Mind use promo code Theo to get 10% off MagicMind CO Today's guest was the second overall draft pick in the 1989 NFL draft And maybe the largest offensive lineman that people had ever seen he was on the cover of sports illustrated He's lived many lives to say the least. We're gonna hear a lot about that and he's transformed his own life through the power of recovery

He is a retired athlete Motivational speaker and photographer mr. Tony Manderich I Thanks for coming in my friend Morgan Murphy, do you know she is she's a right? She is a writer She messes you I think I never met her one time, right? That's what she said, but she messes me yesterday She's like, oh, I'm so excited for this. I'm such a big Tony fan I'm she's a comedian. Yeah, she's a comedian and a writer and she's like I'm such a huge fan of his photography Right. Yeah, she um, I want to say about six months ago messaged me or had commented on DM on Instagram

And then I kind of looked her up because I saw she had that Seal like that. She was who she was right? So I was like, well, I just want because I didn't know who she was So I checked it out. I was I was like, oh, you know, she's a comedian and she's been the I think 10 p.m. Provin all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, she's a right Yeah, she goes over to the comedy store a lot of our fraud I know her from and then she's written on a bunch of shows But it was just you know, it's just interesting the people that will reach out when you have a certain guest coming on right, right and it always It always surprises me. Yeah, I told her if she's ever through Phoenix. So yeah, that's what she said

She's like she just has a man. I guess that's what she said. She's like tell him I plan on on seeing him at some point Cool. Yeah, she's definitely a worthwhile. I mean a lot of people are worthwhile. Yeah She seems very straight up very authentic. She's cool chick. Yeah, and or cool. Whatever she is man I mean, I'm a woman, but yes cool person Um, I'll be g t q y n. Yeah I don't know what letters to say these my friend juggles now and he said he feels left out. So I want to call him the alphabet Yeah, I know that's not referring to her. I'm just talking about oh in general. It's hard Can you imagine going to get it your license now male female Hispanic ghost good, right? Yeah, I'm the alphabet somebody

Yeah But the thing is it's just gonna add up until it's just everything and then it's gonna come full circle It's so stupid. It's some things are getting absolutely ridiculous man You live where do you live these days? I'm in Scottsdale. Oh nice. How do you like it over there? I love it? I've been there since oh four oh four oh five and what's burning the move over to there, you know It was kind of I had a golf course in Canada where I grew up and It was family owned down half it and I was just tired of You know how family businesses can go awesome or they can go hmm not so good

so It didn't go like really bad, but it wasn't like I wasn't I Guess receiving what I was Promised I was gonna receive. Okay, so I was kind of like instead of making a big deal about it I'm just gonna get out of the business and instead of giving them a two-week notice I give them a nine month notice. Okay, just so you know, they could figure things out and stuff. Yeah, like a baby Yeah, right. I mean, it's plenty of time to figure stuff out. Yeah, I'm not just gonna leave them hanging so I

Literally sat at the kitchen table and I was like if I could do anything anywhere where would it be? And it was photography and it would be in the Southwest. Although. I didn't know if I was gonna go Nevada Cali Utah or Arizona You know, I think Arizona was the pole for some reason probably cuz of Sedona. Yes You know, I mean, I'm only an hour and a half from Sedona say answers up there a lot of yeah a lot of a lot of crystals Yeah, yeah a lot of oh, it's it's not crazy It's a dinner to drive by a woman's house and see her charging her crystals out in the in the yard, right? Right on the moon, right? She's putting all she's wheel bearing them out there to charge up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's um

That's natural. It's probably my favorite place on the planet, but the crystal stuff It doesn't even freak me out. It just makes me kind of go whatever. Yeah Yeah, that's not this right I'm like cool Whatever get you through it Exactly what it really is because what works for me may not work for them. Yeah, right? It's kind of amazing how there's so many different like Whether it be relics or Deities and there's so many different avenues for people to find comfort. Yeah. Yeah, I mean Yeah, there is there's and then sometimes they're like I do I used to do a lot more than I do now

But I used to do a lot of ritualistic things. Maybe I shouldn't say ritualistic, but just Stuff like I would always tie my left shoe before I would tie my right I would always put my left shoe on before my right shoe like we're game or just in day-to-day living And then I forced myself to break that. I just said I was like I'm gonna live wild on the edge. I'm gonna put my right shoe on first. Oh, yeah And I was like, oh nothing happened today. That was bad. So I'm good. You know, I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna put this So you You started you so when was it hard to leave Canada when you left Canada was it tough

When I left the golf course when I left school left for school when you left the golf course when you kind of was It was Canada's awesome. It's freaking awesome. I love it. I mean, you know, I you know I grew up in Canada till I was 15 and then my senior high school went to Ohio For the sole purpose of besides the obvious of graduating from high school But to get exposure to get a scholarship to major American College because it was easier by if you're in the states Yeah, and then it just so happened at the high school I ended up going to was in the same town as where my brother was going to college at Kent State. So So

He would become my legal guardian. So like really go to court and everything my parents had to sign off Wow, and they got you a home down there. No, I actually ended up living with my brother Wow on off-campus apartment and were you guys was that like kind of party-central? Are you are you so focused on that time at phone football? I was very focused, but there was yeah There was some partying like I mean there was it was the first time ever got drunk was believe it or not a senior high school Yeah, I mean a lot of people will so build surprise a lot of people right first time I ever Dabbled in weed was for it my senior high school. Yeah

So yeah for so for some that would almost seem a little bit late in the yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what what is your height and weight now? What are you at now? I'm six five probably about two sixty five two seventy And what were you at when you were at your maximum beefed out? You know butcher box? The heaviest I ever got or the biggest I ever got was like wow six six I was an inch taller, but the compression gravity catches. Oh, yeah God will pull you back right right Before for one of that It's like one of those I'm glad I didn't get what I really deserved right. Oh totally man

But um, I was like 333 was the big like offseason biggest I got and it was like just slinging weight around heavy But playing weight that was not a good playing weight. It wasn't a good playing weight. That's you right there Damn, bro, okay, and he's a romantic. Oh my god If I was a shark and I saw you surfin No homo, bro, you know or yes. Oh, I don't know what they're doing now What is it like carrying What was it like carrying that much body weight around?

This was there anything that started to be different. I have you steroids in myself growing up, you know So I have some experience of what it's like to have a body that's different than like what'd you take? I took a testosterone and then some other things. I don't even know what they were So but you got like how much would you gain like what 20 pounds 30 pounds? Yeah, I probably gained 30 pounds Yeah, so that's a significant amount of weight right of muscle mostly muscle. So you know that feeling right? Well, here's the thing in the offseason I'd be like 333 and just to put muscle on put size on it was almost like I don't want to say it was like bodybuilding where they have an offseason and they're putting on weight So they can cut down for a show, but I would try to do all my building and my bulking in the offseason

I get my strength and then as the season got closer and I mean like 16 weeks out We'd start running so it you know as you're running it makes sure it leans your muscles out and it's harder to keep Like that big bulk. Yeah, but a good like playing weight for me was like 310 like I at 310 Like I can honestly tell you at 310. I felt like I was 150. Wow I could like run like it was I was like I could stop on a dime and like that's what I felt like Yeah, and you know and you set my scale on your 310 But I think it's like everything was so strong like you know your core is strong just from heaving all that weight

I mean you didn't have to work your core. Yeah at that point if you're doing all the power cleans You've been down to pick up a hundred hundred pound dumbbell. It's I mean you're on a late day, right? A hundred pound dumbbell. Yeah 150s 160s You know, right? Fucking meathead Oh, yeah, so I'm jacked up. I'm like, I never walked like that You're curling your grandparents Right, I'm like you guys need to eat it. Do you remember the first time that you when wouldn't you first start? Is it okay to talk about this kind of thing? Okay, cool. Thank you. If you're comfortable with I am man

I am our audience a lot of our audiences. I mean, I don't know what I mean a lot of them I think need help and But but we all do and that's kind of where our audience all kind of meets each other is in that space where it's like We're all imperfect creatures. Yeah Do you remember so the first time you ever used steroids? Take me through a little bit senior senior my senior year high school in Kent Mm-hmm, but it was I should say but that sounds like I'm making an excuse for it It was in April slash May. So it's like the last two years or last two months of my senior year

So I had a really signed a scholarship with Michigan State. So football was over. You had already been doing really well at football Yeah, and you know it well enough see I was lucky because our team our high school team had like five like like tier one Like my recent arrest, right? I mean they like, you know, Ohio's like all these big schools were coming to watch those guys and The whole plan was what's keeper fingers crossed? They noticed me and they did and they did so the move down to America The move to Ohio the live with your brother all that was really I mean you guys must have been living a little bit like wow, this is all painting out. Well, yeah Yeah, yeah, well, you put a plan together, right? So I mean we literally put the plan on paper This is the plan and let's not continue the plan until this gets executed because if it doesn't work

Then there's no reason for the other plan, right because I don't want to make a plan B, right? As soon as you make plan B screwed yourself on plan A. It's like oh, I always got this to fall back on Plan B has a lot of pizza in it. Right. I always know and we'd apparently, you know, yeah Nick gets all excited when we say That's only because but yeah, but yeah, the sole purpose of the Ohio move was literally To get a scholarship So you got that so as so right at the end of high school So you start that's when you get that's when I started the steroids and the catalyst was

I told you about it my brother. He did. Yeah, he was into it. Yeah, cool And he's you know, my hero and and my mentor my idol, you know, he passed away with his 31 from cancer Oh, I was like 93 1993 February to 93 and uh, but you know, I'm sorry to hear that man. That's hard break Yeah, it was you know, and you know, it's like the toughest part about that is I was like so in the bag Messed up with alcohol and painkillers at that time, you know, it's like I wasn't there sober, right, right? Yeah, you weren't that impressive that you didn't like Oh, yeah, but you know, it's like there's tools to deal with that stuff, you know and stuff and I've dealt with it And I'm good with it, you know, and but uh, what was he like? What was he like your brother starting to interrupt?

He was he was the best. Yeah. Yeah. He was the bad he taught me so many things like he taught me so many things that And and did so many things that today would be considered abuse, you know um He made me I remember one time it was like a Friday I already got the scholarship and everything and it was a Friday working out And so I'm a high school senior. He's a college senior and he's working out with his Lifting partner who's a bodybuilder and this is in Kent and Kent at that time was a really small town and um

I was just gassed. I was tired and I was like, you know what? I I'm just gonna chill today. I'm not gonna work out I'm but I got to go to the gym because he's my ride home Oh, yeah And the gym from the high school was like walking distance and the walk back to the apartments was like two three miles Hey, I mean, it's not like it's not walking. This is but huge snowstorm. Oh, yeah, and And I was like, I'm just not gonna lift and And I could see them both like shocked and because I loved lifting but I was tired

and They freaking ripped into me like it I mean, it was life-changing. It was life-changing because they were like Tony Robbins. Yeah No, they no, that would have been nice. Tony Montana. Yeah Yeah, exactly Yeah, say yeah, say hello They uh, yeah, they were like you think fucking uh, you know You know

John Smith who's at Michigan State right now in his third year Is gonna, you know, not take it easy on you when you get there. You're gonna knock your you know, what off when you get there He's like they're like because I think that they thought And and maybe I did or maybe it seemed that way that I thought that okay. Well, I got the scholarship already I'm good, you know, I can chill now and I never really was like that But they really were like, you know, staying on top of you. Yeah, which is good Right, I think we're today. It'd be like, oh, you're pushing somebody too much. It's like, no, look it's support I've looked at it like they were supporting me. I had to walk home

And that blizzard. Oh man, I'm so glad it happened. Oh, right. I'll run a four one in a blizzard With the wind behind you. Oh, yeah, dude. I run about a four 15 or four 50 or four I run about a four 120 Five just an eight to 40. Well, you got some momentum goes. You're probably in the seventh second mark. Did I run a jog? Okay, I'll be honest with you. I run as fast as I have to Did you think do you think like looking back on it that you did like Do because I get curious as to like I remember I was working at a restaurant They had a bus boy there that was an older guy and he was doing steroids in it

And so we would go to the gym together and next thing, you know, it was just like something we did Right, you know and um And he was older than me this guy. So sometimes I went looking back I wonder would I have done it if it wasn't like an older person if it had just been a buddy I don't think too much on it, but sometimes I just like to look back at like You know, where was like the influence coming from or was the influence coming from inside of me like wanting something Um different or wanting a different experience, you know wanting to like put anything into myself To replace something inside of me that was missing, you know, yeah, which is a story of our lives. Totally, right?

I mean, I'm chasing later in life. I'm chasing something that's already inside of me Yeah, but I'm looking for external answers Or external things to fill that void But really the answer is inside of me, right? Yeah, but it doesn't feel like it is because it feels like there's nothing inside of me Once you get so over clear-headed and kind of can start reflecting on life as you get older Yeah, you that's when at least for me at my experiences. I start to see I was like the dog Jason Mattel. Yeah looking for this looking for that and it's like the whole answer It's like with me the whole time. Yeah, it's just like stop take a look slow down, you know breathe

And yeah, but the catalyst for the actual steroid taking was I couldn't bench 315 because that's three big plates on each side. Oh, yeah But I could do 295 for like five wraps, but I couldn't do 315 for once It was like a psychological block and I got on like some really light steroids and like within two weeks I was like at three bench in like 325. Damn. So I was like, oh, they definitely were Well, we got on some vietnamese shit one time. I don't even think he helped me lift He helped me cook It definitely helped me like I could run away dude. I'm not even joking

I could cook over a fire suddenly in my yard, but I could not Fucking do it Because we got some gutter steroids. It came through man. Like we got like bottom of the barrel Was it like top of it taped closed? Yeah, it was like it wasn't even sealed and stuff I remember one time we all went to mexico on a class trip So we came back literally people would buy steroids and then put them in shampoo bottles It's kind of rinsing out a little no and just pour it in there

Oh, so then for like people are just pulling up at this dude's house and just syringing out of this You know head and shoulders unreal, you know, and that's it. I mean it got you it got you both of those pharmaceutical Holy smokes, but yeah, we had some of the cleanest muscles in town. I will say that Well, you're willing to go to any lengths, right? Oh, totally. That's the question that it's like I really was Yeah, and so was I and I am today too in in certain areas of my life. Yeah, but it was like I'm gonna do whatever I gotta do to be the best player I can be within like within the rules, right, but

Stairways are breaking the rules. So those were within the rules at the time. No, no, they were breaking the rules They were yeah, they were so and so there was a day where I had to make a conscious decision It's like I'm not gonna kill it I'm not gonna sit here and lie to myself Because I wasn't like hooked on paying girls. I wasn't drinking alcoholically or nothing like that at that time I was like Is it worth it? And it was and I it was yeah

I mean looking back at everything and and you know what it was worth it And the least amount of that worth it is monetary Even though it made me it helped me make millions of dollars right The least the greatest worth and value in that are the lessons learned in life from taking them But yeah, at the time you didn't know that though, right, but I had to make a conscious decision on Will I ever look back and regret and say like what could I have been? Ah, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, I'm gonna go to any lengths plus and this is not to like I'm not like blaming anybody but the

Atmosphere was like, you know, the end of the 70s it happens. This was 1983-84 So who won four championships in the NFL in the 70s Steelers, right? I thought maybe backers steel. No, they are the Steelers. That's right I remember they won two in a row or is that Bradshaw? Yeah, you know all those guys and they're like, you know Jerry Olshanski was out there. I don't know him but but Webster and Steve Korson all these old linemen they were I mean all jacked up right and it was obvious Yeah, and I was like in my head and and my brother kind of felt the same way It was like the only road to the NFL

Is through steroids or at least it's a spoke in the wheel. Yeah And especially I think as a white guy you got to get a you got to get on something, you know for what? I mean, just no, just oh, I think no, you just got to get if I'm a white guy I'm getting on steroids you to put anything listen. Can you imagine if you if someone had a drug for that? Yeah, oh, man. I'm how rich they be. Oh, yeah You mean it's bigger. Well, hell we sell them half of our ads today So, yeah, they're trying to give me some samples before we get I'm sure we know but it was it was Like when I say this

I say it literally like I try not to be in too much gray area because that's kind of how I lived my life and as the older I got I started to realize I thought I had to be in gray area somewhat, but it's not it's just being more tolerant and flexible of the way other people are But I I can make it crystal clear on what I'm about and what I believe in and what I don't believe in And then all the variables in between So I knew I was taking them. I knew what was wrong. I knew I was breaking the rules whether I was taking pills and injections or both, right? um

But I was like, I'm gonna you know, their testing was so mediocre. Yeah, and you know, I think that I became kind of like a red flag to the NCAA because um Like we did them well, right? I should say I did them. I did them the correct way to get the most out of them and

I didn't like I held nothing back In the in the training and that was whether it was running whether it was lifting doesn't Oh, I see you didn't try to mask it. You almost didn't even mask it. You were doing them. You just hit it from the test, right? And and I did like I didn't go around telling people and I always whenever the question was asked um, do you do steroids by the media? My answer would always be like I've never tested positive for steroids, right? So it's like you got to be pretty dumb not to read between the lines exactly. Yeah, there's only two lines, right? Um, if you had a comment, there's only one

That's really true, man There's uh, I remember one thing that got me I remember about and I'm just we haven't had anybody in here I don't think that's ever that has ever done steroids that I knew of so it's like It's just for me. It's interesting to talk about because we talk about it on the podcast sometimes over the years and um So I remember being in class one day and some kid there was a new kid in class And he thought I was going through the hall the the aisles picking up people's papers or something for the teacher And he thought I was the teacher's husband

And I think because I'd been doing stuff. I was suddenly Just looked stronger right and you know and I just you know at that time the thought that somebody Would you know that I would be married to somebody that knew first of all that even knew mathematics as well as this lady did You know, like it almost just was flattering You know, holy shit. Do you think that's my wife? That's pretty old the older women She drove here. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a real lady over there. Um, but I just remember that one moment that's like I don't know. I just felt like people saw me. I just felt more confident. I felt stronger my I just And right right then man, those feelings were feelings that I never had

Are they good or what? Oh, right, bro. They were so good, right? They were so good and then uh, but you also did the work You also worked out right? Oh, I was it we worked out all the time and I you know diet it properly You know, you would get on milk thistle and all these like things you would hear about to kind of take care of yourself. Um But it was definitely like it was interesting how I went from if you to ask me two weeks before would you ever do steroids? I just said no way right, but then suddenly I was over a line right and for me and a lot of my areas of life that that that became Sometimes I really don't want to look at the truth that there's a lot of lines that I've crossed in my life that

I probably wish I hadn't you know, I remember thinking oh, I'll never hook up with a married woman You know and then cross that line just like right things that like like where you're saying like setting kind of boundaries Or where who you are and things that you do will and won't do right? I had those things But I always went past them and then would live and still probably live with a ton of the shame from a lot of it you know and that's you know and A lot of the stuff you described. I mean you're it's like were you following me around right? It's like, you know like like everybody's done stuff that where they've kind of said their boundaries are

These are my code of ethics like my personal code of ethics And then you know you cross them and and I think when you're younger At least the majority of the people I haven't encountered was far as friends and stuff The younger you are the more Kind of like yeah screw it. It's okay the older you get the the road narrows And stuff that you could do a couple years ago or five years ago that were maybe not the most ethically You know, right be a man stand up and be a man like kind of thing because stand that up and be in a man Today is not about how big your muscles are. Yeah, it's about doing the right thing

It's changed a lot. It's changed a lot and and I think I think it's changed for the better even though we're in a present circumstance of debacle It's been such a great year to watch people And how messed up people are and and and to be like Man, I just want some toilet paper and it's not even a shit disease, right, right? And it's like, why is everybody hoarding toilet paper? And I was like like six rolls will last me six weeks seven weeks I'm good. Yeah, right. It's like but there's not on the other was one March April. It was like nothing to get

Yeah, it just it just it was interesting to watch people panic because You know, you're sober. I'm sober So we know like in a way like I feel lucky that I had a lot of hardship because And the reason I feel lucky is because I've put perspective on it and I've also The tragedy would be if I didn't change it if I kept living that way Well, that'd be the tragedy, right? And but it gave me perspective to change it. So my

four years in Green Bay were a train wreck and I was there wasn't you know a single day in Green Bay Where I was like stone cold sober. It was either some kind of a pill in me There was anything that would alter me from the chin up, right in my brain Where I was drinking or I was doing something now That doesn't mean I was sloppy down falling down drunk drinking But I would need a drink to stop the shakes and then go to practice Why what's kind of hurt the past block in the NFL? Period let alone when you're half in the bag. Yeah, so, you know looking back at a lot of those things and being

Going through all that pain like I got into so much emotional pain. I was sick and tired of my own bullshit Oh, man. That's that's that's right. It's exactly where I'm at right now. I'm just tired of myself That's when we change sick of yourself right like literally people like what are you on and you're like I'm on myself And it's fucking killing me like it People understand sometimes and that's a lot of what I think addiction is for me I don't even know sometimes if I've ever had a lot of chemical dependency as much as I The way I'm feeling affects me so heavily Like it's a drug

Like to the point where it's like and then I become addicted to it and at the same time suffering from it And I think people sometimes can't understand some of that like what it's like to feel that way And it's and they're like you're a wimp or you're this man. It's like you think I don't Don't want you think I want to feel this way every day when I wake up You think I want to be angry or be miserable or you know, like no, this is something that's happening to me And it's hard to handle. Right. Yeah, and and You know, I mean and listen you it's like again. Are you following me around because you're telling me my story Right. It's exactly how I feel and I don't feel I still get definitely times like that

But less and less yeah, and and it'll change and I've been you know Over 25 years and now almost 26 years sober and wow, but you know what like the first three years were like just Like you could have cut me off you could have done Robbed me out and been like, all right, here you go. Cool. Have a good day. I was so happy not to be miserable Yeah, right. Oh the beginning of sobriety when you're like When you see when something happens as a perspective switch and the way you see in the world and the way that it really is God, bro. Yeah, I went it literally like you talked about the four or five days or two weeks before you took steroids You never thought you'd take steroids

Four days before I got sober. I never thought I'd be in a treatment center four days later Wow, and that was a decision I made right and Because of the emotional pain and I was just looking in the mirror Disgusted at what I saw and I was like what a A bunch of bullshit lies and deceit and just and it just gets so hard you stack up so much stuff It's just too heavy and it's so interesting. You had so much weight on your body Like so much and it was like but then you get this relief of all of this fucking weight crazy, isn't that?

Which is just almost so ironic in your like in your space and today but in today like like you talked about like today's circumstance when I do feel The way like, you know, if I feel I have a shitty day or it's like like I'm sabotaging myself or whatever I know why it's because I'm not connected. I'm not either talking to people Or I'm or I haven't like for me. I haven't hit my knees in the morning and ask for help Well, when you're I think that this is a powerful thing when you're six five like now six five two sixty five whatever When you hit your knees and you are praying to the god of your belief And asking for help through the day and asking about what you can add to the stream of life instead of sucking out of the stream of life

for a change That's a pretty humbling experience when you're that big a stature So, you know, I was doing that when I was six six, you know playing for the cult at six six three fifteen three twenty strong as an ox And it's it's a very humbling experience knowing you're knowing how powerful you are right and I could make stuff happen Like I can make things happen by the old phrase just grab the bull by the horns Just make it happen if you got a step on people's toes do it just make it happen It's like I don't care how you got to block this guy. Just don't get a penalty and block them

I don't care if you got to take his knees out whatever right? It's like go to any lengths to protect your quarterback So it's it's kind of like that, but it's like, you know, it's When you have that stature that size that power and you're in the weight room slinging weight around and all this But in the morning You know When you get on your knees and ask for help, that's a humbling. It's a humbling act. Yeah And yeah, and you know, it's like it's basically saying, you know, I can't do this by myself I tried and almost killed myself. Yeah almost killed myself trying. Yeah, because I'll never forget

But I'm in the treatment center in Detroit And was no fancy treatment center. This is the first time you ever went into treatment first time ever So you went in and got it. Yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. Right. Yeah Um, and uh, okay. Take us there. No the girl the girl the lady counselor It was their first like small like 10 people session with a counselor It was all our first time with this meeting and she goes Um So before we start and she's like this isn't pointing anybody out. She's like this applies to everybody

She's like just before we start. I just want you all to know That all of your best plans of building your empires and building everything Got you here in this treatment center in Detroit, Michigan, and I can see like I you know I in 90 or whatever it is going by in the interstate. I'm going She's right And I was like talking about a Louisville slugger coming across your forehead going That reality Yeah, I mean funny now

Wasn't funny then Yeah But I'm trying to think of some of those first moments that You know, whenever I went into the rooms because mostly I learned about recovery through my family My I have a siblings that are you know in and out or been in the program and um And probably my father. I mean, I think so many people struggle with addiction to different things But I remember getting I remember I drove through the parking lot one night of a of a room that's not far from where I live and I was talking to my brother something the next day and he said, well, you know, who's not thinking about getting treatment and I said

He I said who he goes people that People that aren't driving through that parking, you know, I'm saying like not everybody's driving through the parking lot of an AA Center last night, you know, I'm saying like there's something inside of you. That's curious. That's thinking like and I think sometimes it is There's a magnet that's created by that program You know last night I went to a meeting and I went over to a buddy's house and uh And I got there and I hadn't been in probably like three months to his meeting and um It's just like six or seven guys sitting outside by fire Right, and I get there and suddenly like I walked around the group and just hugged like every guy there. I know them all right

And it was funny because I just had the worst day and I get there and uh And I was like, man, I didn't know that I was gonna hug all these guys when I got here I forgot that and they were all so excited to see me like each individually. We have our own little relationship and like I just I'd forgot that all these guys cared about me and I forgot that I cared about them like it's just like comradery Yeah, and unless I like the half-life or the residual effect of like care It doesn't the shelf life isn't long inside of me for some long it's you know, it's really like it's almost like the shells are like At an angle and when somebody puts care on them. They just slide it just and I don't know why I think it was just the way the shells are built or something You know, but it was just crazy because next thing you know is like the best moment of my day and all these guys was like man

I always feel like nobody cares, but these guys care. They all care And I care about them and I just for it just it doesn't Stick to my ribs like I wish it would a lot of times. So that's why I think some people are like, man, you chase your tail a lot It's like because I forget that That that the tail is there. I forget that it how it grew the tail's wagging the dog, right? Oh, yeah, it's like, um I don't know. It's just it's it's all fascinating man. The program is pretty fascinating. You know recovery It works so Uh, it works. So so take us a little bit more. So so you you have that experience with your brother kind of and then you get into it

And then you're playing at michigan state then. Yeah And you do it and so at that point you're on sero. You're getting into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like, um My brother had got drafted in the first round in the canadian football league. So he went up to edmonton over the eskimo. Yeah Oh, but ricky, uh, who played up there a quarterback war moon was just done He had come went to houston who just played up there ricky Uh, he just played a few years ago six seven years ago. I couldn't tell you six seven years ago But it was done again. I think it was a quarter but matt dunnegan was the quarterback when my brother played there but um

And then you know that year he got drafted was the same year I went to michigan state Okay, because he was already done with kent state So was that pretty so was that tough when he left and you're still there or it was at that point you were off No, we sat down and we made a new plan Dang because it was like, all right. This plan is executed now. Let's make another plan And then so we made a general plan. He reached his goals to get drafted. He obviously wanted to get drafted the nfl but You know wasn't

You know, I guess it's a nice man in canada though. They apologize for sacks They pick a guy out of the stuff. Yeah, sorry Here they're like stepping on the guys to road canada. Some people come across the street. Just apologize to you They didn't even do anything. Hey, they've ever been to a tim hortons. Oh, yeah. It was good or what? Yeah, that's really it was really good. Cake donuts and stuff like you can get a meal there. I was like, what'd you have for dinner? Eight chocolate doughnuts. Aren't those fluffy? No, they're like cake doughnuts. They're good. Tim bits, you know the little tim It's like doughnut holes. I love going into tim hortons. Every time I go people are like, what do you like to see in canada? I'm like tim hortons, you know They're all a little different. Right, right, right, right, right, yeah

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That's fire t f a h erty brand Dot com slash teo for 25 off firety brand comm slash Theo. It's uh, we had a question that came in This is a question that came in from a young man right here About your time at michigan state you had a kind of a long preamble for tony is um Well, first of all, I grew up in east lansing. So I'm familiar kind of with the incredible bulk the folklore the story of the incredible bulk And uh, but I was curious and I know a lot of other people are going to be asking questions about steroids and small penis things and

I'm sure But what was uh, what was the academic life of a 1980s football star like Like did you go to class did people do your work for you or Maybe you were really diligent in class. I don't I don't know but I suspect that It was different from the stereotypical college students uh experience. That's a great question. That is a great question It's a great question. Um So, I mean I'll be 100 transparent um

I went to class I didn't I didn't graduate. I was like 12 credits short of graduating when I then I moved to cali After the gator bulls our last game and then I would have to go through spring semester and graduate You know, and I already knew I was going to get drafted. Okay. Um, I just went to cali and went to move the wittier trained with my trainer Inches it was balls to the walls for the next six months training. What was the studying like when were you at school? you know, it was um

You know what? I guess I'd be lying if I said there was no favoritism because There was there wasn't favoritism favoritism not a good word. There were certain things that were made just a little bit more convenient for us But it's really at the end of the day comes down to what you make it right because if I want it I mean michigan states known as a great agricultural school and great veterinary school um, so it if I really applied myself which I wish I would have um, like it's something like business administration or you know, something that That there's fundamentals of business that will be timeless. Right, right?

There's obviously the internet changed a lot of that but still relationships are a fundamental of business. Yeah, so but you know, I took public relations and marketing which is still good even though the marketing these days is so different than the marketing would have been in 80s like print marketing and stuff and right, right, you know, or public relations or whatever But that also did help me. Yeah, but that did help me with a lot of the you know PR stuff with interviews and just you know stuff like that So you were going to class some yeah, I mean we had tutors at our disposal, but

you know our like my day was started at 7 a.m. And But you know, you have to be at practice at 3 And I'd have classes all the way up to like about an hour and a half before Classes all day before practice and then you practice for two hours And then you have to watch film and then they'd have study hall mandatory study hall at the football facility Right, so they'd have tutors come in if we wanted them and there'd be tutors available and then Or you could just stay in study hall like it was mandatory by the coach And were you a prize pig at this point? Were you like one of like the heroes on the squad?

When I when I went there. Yeah, no, I was I was just one of the guys in this class There was some studs that came in my class. Did y'all ever play against Rudy from all that movie? No, we ain't that old. Yeah, good I can't remember who they played. No today. That was Notre Dame. He played for Notre Dame But we played Notre Dame every year. Yeah, but now he's he's he's probably 10 years older the next generation um So so the academics were not I mean it wasn't like there was no like no freebies given right, you know, there were some There you I would always have like I would say one course a semester that was kind of like

You pretty much if you attended it, you're pretty much gonna pass, right? It almost sounds like anybody's college. I mean, I remember going in like the Greek kids always had all the tests somehow Right, like that was insane. How the fuck does this girl just because she's kind of hot, right, you know, right, right? Rebecca has the fucking past You know what I'm saying? She's never done anything But it was crazy to have like people really studying and then you would just go over to somebody's house on a four And they would have the same it was just college sometimes was crazy I got remember getting paid by a coach one time to write

Papers for some of the players even um, so I think there's always been some of that in school, you know Just like uh that athletes get help. Yeah, they get it But I think they should because their time is taken up that's again with practice too, right? And so that being said their time is taken up with practice plus How much revenue does that sport bring into that school? So and and that's not saying hey look the other sports don't matter. Yes, they matter But a lot of those other sports at that school or any school wouldn't exist like not I'm not talking about basketball I'm talking about yeah, I'm not even gonna say because I want to offend it. I'm gonna say it

I'm not gonna say anything the alphabet between titles eight and ten And it's like it's like, you know, I respect anybody who wants to compete and do something that they love to do But but the money comes from that. That's where a lot of the red and Michigan State is football and basketball Right, so um, which by the way, they beat Duke yesterday. Did they yeah, I didn't see that I saw Kentucky loss last night. I think to Kansas did um, was there an opportunity for you to play basketball at some point? Seriously, yeah They never said hey guy I would uh Oh, what is that a guy? Intermural maybe. Oh really? I wasn't the last guy picked an intermural team

Okay, but no Michigan State like they were I mean Magic Johnson had just left there. Wow Like three four years prior and they were like stacked and they were I mean, that's big-time basketball. Yeah, I mean, they're good I mean You know Indiana's big-time basketball too, especially because at that time was Bobby Knight was there. Oh, wow and The head coach at state now for basketball was an assistant to Judd Heathcote when I was there. Hmm. So I've got to watch uh This coach just you know blossom over the last

30 years So you get so you go through Michigan State and then you get drafted and by then you're like a hero That's when we see like the big pictures of you. That's when we see you like um, you know really kind of put on this I don't know. What was that like like take me through a little bit of that like did you Kind of start that legend of yourself or was that all kind of media created? I know that sports illustrator came out like the day before the draft or a couple days before Yeah, or you know one of the famous

um Yeah, that's right on that's right on venice beach actually Damn dude, let me tell you this bro. If you want to do a start an all men's football team today On venice beach bro that picture we get it done. I'll tell you that I'll tell you this half the men will be wearing polar skates But you could start like the four skates or the not the blaze Rainbow socks rainbow socks. We're talking in line We're talking in line, but out of line you feel me daddy So take I mean because like that that image right there especially for people that are looking at sports illustrator

Like that's the thing that comes in the mail where it's like, okay. I didn't know about this guy and now I know about this guy and then I go to the water cooler and I'm talking about like I've known about this guy forever Right. Yeah, it was like a phenomenon. It was it was it really like it was almost overnight like that for me, it wasn't like any different like I was like Working my ass off every day to be the best right. I woke up like literally every day being like what can I do today to get myself better And were you doing steroids that whole time? Um When I was at school. Yeah. Yeah

And did you feel like um Do you did you ever I guess did you have the like were you afraid to probably get off him at that point? I would be afraid to get off. Well, I mean, I was just want to math. I would have ready to get off of it You're collecting papers from the students. You were married to the teacher though You know, yeah, I mean if I had my preference, I would not have got off of them Um, but the you know, the nfl's testing was way more uh, sophisticated So was that scary thing you're getting drafted and you know that like You know, it wasn't as scary as you might think and this is why because I I've looked back at this in my life and

Every time I took steroids and then got like if I got off for 12 or 16 weeks and then got off for Uh, 12 weeks and got back on I would lose about 10 15 maximum 20 percent of my strength One and you know, so every time you cycle you compound that strength that you keep getting stronger and stronger So when I got drafted, I mean if your bench and close to 600 pounds and you lose 15 or 20 percent of your strength You're still pretty strong. Yeah, and you're still pretty much stronger than a lot of the guys in the nfl So really wasn't that much of a concern The psychological effect of steroids are as well as they work physically the multiplier on the psychological effect in my opinion

Are at least five to tenfold. Um, like you know that feeling you were talking about earlier like when you feel like yeah Yeah, and then then you don't have that feeling Yeah, right and you're going to another level. Oh, that would be to me That's all it don't give me anxiety right now here and you say that like okay I'm walking into this place and suddenly like some of the wet the sword is my sword's different right and All the expectations all the shit talking I did Not on steroids anymore. I'm still all the accusation. I was like, you know and I was like I'm definitely not going to do steroids because that's gonna everybody's gonna be like see told you so he tested positive, right?

So But you know what the the thing was like that was definitely that was a spoke in the wheel But everybody was like no that is the reason the only reason and it was perfect for me because it was like there's so much Distraction there was focusing on steroids. I was over here taking 89 painkillers a day conning all these pharmacists and doctors That's crazy. So it took kind of like the thing like the concentration away from something. They didn't know about Because they kept saying steroids. Well, I was half in the bag all the time So at this point this when you start to realize you probably have some addiction Looking back it's easy to see it, but were you able to see that at the time or not really?

um My fourth year there third or fourth year there. Well, actually my third year there. I knew it was main lining pharmaceutical painkillers That was the problem went in green bay. You mean? Yeah, I knew that was the problem. So i'm just gonna switch to livestock country You know what i'm saying like You're talking dairy stuff. Oh, hey, you're getting something wrong. That's why you weren't making your own milk I probably could have Ha ha. Oh, come here. I was talking about this. Did he? I'll just give it a minute. Jesus like you wake up ready to work

You at least look at that aluminum machine up on you. Oh, yeah, dude. Yeah, I've had fresh milk right off of the animal It's not that good. I don't think it's good. It's not that good and it's hot. Yeah It's really overrated and like a lot of the you know old school pictures and wc, but um, yeah Oh, and we don't have to talk about sir. I mean, I want to talk about your whole life. You know, I just know it's You know, I just know that it's interesting and it's something that I could kind of relate to Yeah, you know, um and the addiction like I never thought I had a problem with drugs until it came to the painkillers That's because I was like I like when you go through physical withdrawal whether it's alcohol or painkillers that they're different types

But listen, it's pain, right? It's not a good comfortable feeling and you were putting it in your vein Yeah, I was mainlining it right there with the nc the mark. Oh, I could hit that vein right dark little basketball You could tell I was right handed, right? I didn't need a turn again. Yeah, right because I was all veiny anyways, but I knew that that was the problem. That's the rationalization kick then, right? I know it's the main lining that's killing me. So I'm just going to switch to oral painkillers Wow, well then you're taking 60 70 80 90 a day and what were you on were some different things you were on at the time Yeah, a lot of the basics that you'll hear pergadam per cassette

There was one called furan all three that I really liked furan all three. I thought it was a movie. Yeah, right? That's uh, it's not the sequel with the third Is it Wesley Snipes in that? You know, if you're on all three, how about this every year? Jason versus Freddy, isn't it? Within myself, right? It was a dark. It was a dark neighborhood up here and there was some dark alleys boy. I tell you Yeah, but there was uh Yeah, there was

There was like if you're an off like you you probably don't remember this Because it was before the internet. There was something called a pdr And it stood for physicians desk reference And if you'd ever go to your doctor's office back then they'd have this big thick it looked like a big old encyclopedia Well, it had every drug made that year or that was available that year So I would like this is the links I would go to to get the narcotics I would find which ones are not triplicates like triplicate Copies of a prescription. Okay. Now it's all digital and stuff even though they get right physical

If it's a triplicate one of the Forms goes to the dea Okay, one goes to the doctor and one I think goes to the pharmacy or something Well, the trick was to find something that was a like a class or like a duplicate. Okay Because then it only goes to the pharmacy and your doctor and the pharmacies all weren't integrated So you could like if there was wall greens on this corner, it's not connected to that wall greens I mean, it might be on paperwork. It might be at a crisp. It's not already right. You're right. You're right, right But that was the old internet. Yeah, I keep coming by and get all these refills, right?

And uh, wow But yeah, so I would look for the duplicates But that still had the certain chemicals that I knew would you know, mind alter. So you were in it. Yeah, and then So that that that that was a duplicate That injection it was used. It was mainly used for women that started labor Um, because they didn't want to numb them too much because they still had to push Yeah, but it would give them enough of a relief to take the edge off the pain So that was like for somebody like a drug addict. It's trying to you know, it's perfect

Perfect. Yeah, it's over to the bathroom, but I'm gonna be fucked up, right, right exactly Do um, where was your head at at that point? So my ass And there's still some days solvers on my How much How much what was your ego like at that point? I saw because it's funny I saw uh, the uh, david letterman interview out there years and it's hilarious, bro You have so many funny lines in it. Um, do you like my theory haircut? Uh, yeah, I did I noticed that I knew I knew you were on your way immediately

This is definitely a sign that you're gonna end up in recovery But this interview I thought you were just so First of all, I could feel a little bit of your nerves Just because what does it have to be like for a guy like this to be I mean, this is a huge show Um, and then to be sitting there and you went toe to toe with them with a lot of great, uh comedy a lot of great Barbs, um, he had a lot of great lines. What uh, where was your ego at during this because I could imagine that this would get you Probably, you know, your head would also start to gain size. Was that happening for you? Or were you just were you chill? I mean, where was your vibe? No, the ego was starting to get out of control and and this was

You know, I was The injectable painkillers were just starting and I was I was at this time I was on the tail end of living in california. I lived in Cali for nine months And that's after the draft This was after the draft Before the season started. Yeah, because I held out till september 5th. Oh, that's right. You're talking about your contact in this Because we were gonna because tyson's people contacted tyson's people contacted my people that sounds so fucking stupid

But that's how it works. You have to have a lot of those people We all get it But you know the the cool thing was I loved letterman growing up I watched him all the time and then you get this invite you're going to you freaking kidding me It's like almost as good as getting the invite to be on the show almost as good almost as good and Because I was like, whoo And I was like, I had to check this guy out online before I answer this email and I started watching it

I'm like four hours later. I'm still watching all these different stuff. I'm like this guy's like legit He's like authentic. He's no bullshit. He's funny and shit. We're trying and he's over We're trying our best man. You guys are doing it man. I'm telling you but yeah, I am really glad that you uh That you gave us the opportunity to be here with you. I really am man So yeah, because it's just it's interesting man like uh for one I'm surprised how easy it is for me to talk to somebody else that's in recovery You know like a lot like a lot of that. It's interesting. It's like it's like a non tangible risk It's not a risk. It is kind of a respect

But it's like I know you've been through the gutter and I know you fucking pulled yourself out of it Yeah, and I know how you feel. It's funny. It's like I know how you feel in places where I can't Even describe it kind of you know, right, right, right? And it's especially interesting because to have those feelings but also to be such a big guy like When did that kind of come to a head for you to because it's like some of those feelings. It's like damn I feel like such a bitch, you know um And no offense to bitches, you know, no, but every if someone hasn't been a bitch in their life at some point

They have lived in a cave Sorry If you haven't failed in life, okay, I mean we get the fail on the front page. Yeah, right? So Yeah, I mean I brought it upon myself. I take accountability. Um, did you start to feel like um So take me out on the road out of that out of the NFL. Take me on that some of that road the first time out Yeah, so for your contract with the Packers was Four year 4.4 million dollar contract. That was the first offensive lineman to get I need water. You have one of your eye. I got got okay. Cool. Um, I thanks. I got uh,

so I was the first offensive lineman ever In the NFL to make a seven figure average salary per year without ever playing a play So, you know, that's kind of kind of rubbed some people wrong, especially offensive lineman, but The smart offensive lineman were like, no, this is gonna help us right because the next year there was like 27 28 guys It made over that were in the league already And they deserved it. So I went in it with the Kind of attitude of this is a short-lived career And it could be one play and you're done like you could blow your knee out never come back from it

I mean probably one of the greatest athletes ever in my opinion is Bo Jackson And I think the amount of torque that that guy had and strengthened his body is what kind of hurt his hip Like I believe that right it's almost too much Yeah, it's almost too much right because the guy was like just I mean baseball He was an all-star and in in football. He was up and an all-pro. Yeah I mean that's he was unprecedented. Did you play it around the same time as him or no? He was like three four years older than me. Okay um

Hershel was like in that like kind of like you could have that discussion with hershel walker, too He's like ridiculously like athletic. He's still looking. Yeah. Yeah, and he's I mean, he's the real deal You know, he's a great guy and like for me My class my draft class like, you know for the first five guys are in the hall of fame bring it up Nick, please You know deon Like deon sanders, right? I've never seen anything like that on the field. Yeah, that guy didn't run across he glided across the floated Did I mean it was ridiculous what he did and um

You know, he's uh, he was a pleasure to watch Is it wild to see your name when you look at this, honey? Um, not anymore. It's right. I don't like you know, it's like I I you know, listen. Wow. Look at that lineup. Yeah, look at those guys, uh I mean, unfortunately, you know, Derek Thomas had that accident. That was heartbreaking. Yeah. Um, but you know, burt grossman From the chargers. I had done. Um, his radio show From san jago like maybe a month ago Um, there's some like steve outwater. Yeah, do you remember when outwater hit? Um, Oh, the guy from kansas city, uh, the nightmare the nigerian nightmare. I don't know if I remember when he hit a guy from

Uh, san francisco one time Um, in this well the guy that uh, what was his name? Oh, uh, christian acoy? Yeah, and that From that hit that guy's career was never the same because he was running people over like a train and when he hit that guy It was one of I mean to this day one of the best hits I've ever seen And you know outwater was taken what late in the first round Right, watch this And christian acoy was like 250 260 was unbelievable man, and he knocked him

Backwards at full speed Wow, I'll tell you what I got a lot of respect for that those broncos were fun to watch. I got a lot of respect for that. Um So what what was so take so you take me uh, take me out of the end of that So you get into you go into recovery in a rehab? Well, no. Well, yeah, so I get you know pretty much Not officially kicked out of the league, but kind of like green Bay's like after the contract was over after four years They're like, we're not gonna resign you We don't we don't want your services and they were professional about it right and of course at that time I was like, well, I don't want to pay for you guys. It's your fault. Anyway, is it my career screwed up with my life?

It's not my fault, right? It's all about you. You're right. It was nick's fault. Totally I got that tattoo tomorrow It was Nick's fault with an arrow on this one so so it was you know it was so that you know, so I get that call in january and February I get the call that my brother uh had passed

And then so it was like god things can't get worse. It's like oh man, don't ever say that Just things just got worse. They got worse and I knew that I mean I knew That my NFL career with the Packers was a definite bust because of the my addiction problem and just my You know not being capable of Doing what I could do before I just wasn't capable. I don't think I could have worked at us Anywhere 7-Eleven and that's not dissing 7-Eleven or anything. It's just I wasn't responsible enough to show up and

For three years after that that was out of the league I it just get darker and darker and darker and more and more and more Pin killers and where were you living at that time? I was in uh, michigan maple city, michigan, which is right by trevor city Wow, I can imagine it gets pretty dark if you start just killing pain over in michigan after a while Yeah, I miss you. It's beautiful. I'm missing. It's a great place. I just imagine like in those long winters in those places You know what I'm saying like I imagine that coming around. It was a long summer. It was a long spring It was a long fall. Everything was everything was like, why do these bad things keep happening to me? It couldn't be me could it and you were on a lot of painkillers, huh?

Yeah, and were you just like spending days in bed? Were you just like do I mean? Partying where you haven't no, I was uh, I wasn't much for like going out to party like I was like kind of like a loner drink. I was married and stuff, you know, and we had a daughter our first daughter and um, it was It was like isolated drinking. I guess drinking and drugging would be the isolated I think would be the best way to describe it. I hated people. Yeah, you know because Just guys they're gonna interrupt my buzz And I know I want my buzz perfect

And they're you can watch in this white Bronco down the 405 And I'm in Michigan. I'm going people leave this shit is happening. Am I might be messed up or is this shit really happening like and you know, it was It was like a it was like a I mean you're conscious, you know what's going on, but it's a blur. It's like a blur Yeah Yeah, being being messed up that kind of says a blur, especially it feels like what pain with painkillers I never got into painkillers, but the couple times I did

Um, my friend got arrested and I just woke up in my car, right, you know, and so this shit like that would have Really too, right? Like for me it like really a painkiller is a downer. It's a depressant as his alcohol but for me When I would take a downer like painkiller like a opiate I would get high like like energy high And I'd be like let's go to the mall right and walk around the food court and get something from every plate Okay, um such an offensive lineman high No much has changed there

But but it was it was weird, but then you know that darkness that's in yeah, it's not good It's uh when the darkness gets that dark You either get sober or you die or you die from it Yeah, or an or a symptom from it whether you take your own life whether you Your liver goes whether your heart goes whether All the side effects What do you think right now? I mean You know, we had this guy morgan wallin on the podcast last week

He's a country musician and we talked briefly about the side effects of this all this lockdowning and the inability of Like i'm going to meet with with a new sponsor later today actually to go over to start doing the step work again And we're trying to find a place to meet and it's like we can't even meet anywhere Like we have to meet at one of our houses, which is fine, but if you're if you're just getting in to try and Doing the steps or something like if somebody's like hey come over to my house and you've never even met them Right like that can be you know some guys won't go do that

And it just makes me like all the meat, you know So many of the meeting rooms even though some are still going on the dl But like a lot of them being closed and I just I feel like we're gonna lose more people from The fallout of addiction problems than we ever are from this silly disease or whatever coven That's just from addiction What about just mental illness right like like the suicides? I saw you know a report. I don't know what to believe anymore when I see right

It's like so warped one way or the other but numbers are numbers facts are facts and like There's a fourfold Numbers are up in this one state of teenage suicides From last year to this year And it's like well, what's the only difference? It's the lockdown right and not nobody in school and it's like Kids that were on the fence with maybe depression or with You know kind of trying to figure out still who they are. It only took me like 40 years, but

I'm still trying to figure it out. But We're slow learners though as long as we're learning right as long as we're trying to learn um So, you know a lot of those people Went on the fence the other way and just took themselves out because they felt it was it was you know easier Yeah, and it is easier. It's the easy way out. It's you know, and it's that's you know, no disrespect just to You know people that are related that has had somebody do that to themselves because it's it's it's gotta be a horrible feeling

I mean, I've had friends that have done it and I and I just like my heart just bleeds for them um because it's like I mean how bad Does it have to get to do that? And you know, it's like well, it did get that bad, you know for me it got that bad Yeah, and oh there's I've had some moments over the years. You're like, yeah You just isolate enough and you feel like nobody cares even though they do but you just yeah The worst conversation to have is with yourself in your head It's like it's like it's a bad conversation. It's a bad conversation

It's like I gotta run it by a lot of people Yeah, you know and and not there's like three or four people that I like trust my life with and I'll just be like What do you think of this am I out of line here? Is my is my ego getting into this or is Am I being selfish with this or is this an opportunity to take advantage of and you know because A lot of times my perspective is different. I grew up like I think your environment The way you grow up affects your perspective on life and your life's experiences. Um, that's like easy. That's obvious So that's why I need other people's perspectives if if if

People were to raise their kids today say the way I was raised They'd be in jail right for child abuse right or like, you know, you got slapped or whatever I only had to get hit well slapped in my face twice Before you pancake block someone. No it was once I was like before you got together before I was like after After the second time I was like crystal clear. I understand Yeah, you say don't do this. I won't that's the rule. Yeah, and and I was like, you know six seven years old And it was like and and you know what? I'm glad

That it was that way for me because I don't want to be babied right. I don't want to be you know I don't want to do pillow fights It's funny because you say baby and sometimes I feel like honestly what I feel like sometimes is a baby I'm like I'm like I'm a baby that never got certain things when I was a baby probably so fucking Sometimes I still act like a baby, but then I'm the only person there It's like I'm the baby and I'm the person fucking reaching and that has to reach into the crib to fucking help myself, you know So thankfully over time I start to realize that I need to be more

At least I know I'm capable after a few minutes of being the baby Or getting a which is fine. Yeah, we're just allowed. You're allowed and I can't help it right lots. I'm I can't help right Um, so when did so we kind of gone through like a little bit of like your journey So tell me like you like when did you start to get like a new perspective kind of March 23rd and 95? Walked into that treatment center and I remember Think into myself like I can picture that that stainless steel door like industrial door and thinking to myself the funds over Yeah, but I was like I'd rather be boring and sober than miserable and drunk or an alcoholic life and

11 days later I stayed in that treatment center 17 days at the day 11. I started laughing again and um My gut hurt From laughing that day. Wow, and I was like I forgot about that. You noticed it. I forgot about that feeling that powerful And I was like, I don't know what's happening, but I'm digging my claws into it And I've been laughing ever since damn even on the tragic days There's been some kind of laughter even if it's been internal like amusement in my own head like as you know

Like we make fun of her poke fun of ourselves. Oh, yeah, I don't have to sit and laugh out loud to be You know put things in perspective But you know even on days where my mom died in three years or three and a half years ago It was like a hard day for me and and and and really it was like the harder year after it was harder for me than that week that You know that she had died and stuff because you always have stuff to do that week. Yeah Yeah, I kick into like, you know, I got to get things done. There's responsibilities. I gotta, you know, make sure things are right And then once you sit, you know that passes and then you sink in and then you're not buying that ticket To go see mom in november like this year for christmas because you're like mom ain't there. I'm going that's when you're like

That's heavy um So you so you went into there you started to get better Yeah, yeah, like day 11 start laughing again and then Yeah, there's little things man. You notice I I remember having uh A thought that made me laugh. I remember just driving one time and um And i've struggled in and out over my five years in recovery, but i've never given up on on the program or or trying to

You know, I haven't given up on that path yet in my life. Um And i'm trying it new now, you know trying it again um but I remember yeah a time when I just was driving down the road and I laughed just by myself and I was like Fuck, I haven't done that in months. Just the little things that were like, um That you just came or just like I remember I woke up in the middle of the night one night And I didn't have a thought in my head and it was like Jesus Christ. This is so nice

The noise is not there. Yeah, just like especially for someone like you You know, it's like somebody started. It's like somebody left something plugged in that's rattling like 40 years ago And it's rattling all that and I can't find it. Put a twist tie around that thing Something So you had a second opportunity with the nfl. Yeah, okay, which I was very lucky to get because I burned all my bridges I was I was thorough Burned them all I was like I'm not gonna burn one or two. I'm gonna fry them all because it's all their fault It couldn't be my fault and so, you know, there was a huge paradigm shift

once I left sobriety it literally almost went to What's it went from what's in it for me? To What can I pack into life? What can I pack in this? How can I make things right that I wronged? And then after I make some of those things right because some of me can't Then how am I gonna live And am I gonna be adding on a daily basis to life and participating? Or am I gonna be sucking and conning people like sucking out of life and conning stuff out of people and you know

Because then it's like it's like that, you know I'm sure you've heard that analogy of the so the drunk horse thief that you get sober You get it, you know, if you get a have a drunk Horse thief that steals horses and you sober him up. What do you have you have a sober horse thief? He still steals He's got to change. He's got to change And so I I knew that okay the the chemical part was changed But now I had to change and that paradigm shift happened kind of naturally Just from the removal of chemical of what's in it for me to

Holy shit, like I did some fucked up stuff and I wronged some people right and so I you know made those amends over You know, most of those amends were done over the first two years and then The one of the bigger ones with my dad Um wasn't done until the four-year mark, but it was done and it was it was you know necessary What was that like? Well, you know what? It was this it was the one that obviously scared me the most it was had the most fear and I was in indianapolis he was in canada and um

I was four years sober and a guy walked in to a regular meeting I went to a 12 and 12 meeting and He was like almost 20 years sober and a regular guy that I knew and he had said that his dad had passed away that day And and then he talked about how he never made amends to his dad and I was like I was like Louisville slugger came out again, man out that next day. I was on the phone with my dad. I was like We do for christmas. I like to come up and see you you know and uh, and he was like yeah So I went out like that was towards the end of the season. So when the season was over um, I drove up to canada and made amends to him and uh

It was it was it's You know, it's like I was lucky to be surrounded by good sobriety guys that were very good and sobriety and that were And I chose a sponsor that would not baby me. I don't want to be babied um and He said when you make amends you look at the person in the eye and you tell him you were wrong For the way you acted or what you said or what you did you don't say i'm sorry because you know You how many times have we said i'm sorry for this and when we're all messed up, right? I'm sorry. We're always apologizing, right?

It's like no He literally said say I was wrong for acting that way while I was drinking or Drugging or whatever and you know, I'm here to You know acknowledge it and even if they played a part in it. It's not about that You're there for to make your part right and it's crazy how people don't realize that that is the real key to a lot of it you know Is setting yourself free even though it feels like you're letting them off the hook Well, you're getting your own but here's the thing

There's a huge caveat in there that is huge the that I know i've seen people do this and it's like I just want to like punch them in the face and it's like they make the amends For them, you know, they do it right the amends at the expense of that other person Yeah, it's gonna hurt that other person more Or rehashing that up or whatever the situation is It's there are some things better just left alone. Yeah And just let your life the way you live be the example And if that person ever approaches you or if you just get in a situation where it feels right to be like, hey man, you know about

You know You know about the past or whatever But there were ones most of my amends were literally like Like where I planned them and I you know I would talk to the person or communicated and said, hey, you know, I'd like to meet up just talk to you about some stuff and Um, so they were you know, mostly like that But to look at your dad in the eye and say I was wrong for all these it was wow be powerful It was powerful

Had you been like ashamed of your dad or something you've been like or scared to death were you there? I was like six six three 25, you know strong as shit second time in the nfl And that should put a lot of things in perspective for people that don't understand addiction That how emotions can Run your life and how fear can run your life and how just because you're big and strong doesn't mean you're not scared Yeah, you know people have assumptions that I mean, I've It's just I've there's just been some humorous things

I'm sure as you have had in your life where people have this assumption of what A comedian how they live what they drive what this you know, they live in this 10 million dollar hell or what it's like, yeah It's like, you know, it's it's it's interesting to me to observe that as life has gone on but um I forgot what the fuck we were talking about the immense Yeah, look I've had concussions. Yeah I'm not that smart. I never was I work with a guy who's fucking got enough concussions for all of us. Not me real delinquent. Not him. Yeah But yeah, it's uh

Well, the thing about putting things in perspective that look my fear is the same fear that soccer mom fear has right, it's like Just because You know, some people will say to me You know like when I played and and they even sometimes now or they might say it You know, if it's just comes up in conversation about You know, well, I mean, I know you wouldn't be you know, that wouldn't mess with you because I mean, you know You could handle the situation like that and thinking of myself and I would literally will be transparent

I'll be like, how do you know? Yeah, and they they're still not getting it and I'm like and then I would just share a story with them That is almost the semantics are different. The story is identical The situations are different, but it's identical and it's like and I was scared to death the story I shared with you about my dad It's like, what do you like? I'm sure there was people going. What do you mean? You were scared of your dad Your dad will always be your dad. Yeah, no matter what And your mom will always be your mom and you know It's like your bigger brother will always be your bigger brother or younger brother or younger sister or whatever

It's like it's kind of like we get these certain roles and it's like You know dad will always be alpha. No, I don't care if I'm 10 times stronger than him. He'll always be the alpha of the family Yeah, yeah, I think there's probably some like uh Code that's within some of our national law. Yeah um, we got a question right here that came in from somebody that has a iphone And I actually had one too. How often when people hear your name do uh, They mix your story up with Todd Marenevich. Does that ever happen? You know

Uh hardly ever because yeah, he was just a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then he was a little bit younger than me But I'll tell you what I do get a lot of Is when people will hear my name and they'll be like They'll be like Are you the yeah? And they'd be like, okay But that makes sense carry on that's your name No, I suppose to fake it. That's true. I thought maybe you were the guy that died that fought rocky for a second. Oh

But then you know, I've made some I don't know a lot. Here's a young fella that has a question right here He's probably trying to buy some windstraw I bet Little boy, what up Dio? What up Tony a big fan from the university of alabama represent from tuscalusa On a side note Dio. We're gonna be lsu's ass this weekend. You probably will damn My question for Tony is as a former offensive lineman myself What was the best game as far as knock downs or pancakes? Whatever you want to call them that you ever had And how many did you have? Gang gang gang bro. What do you think there Tony?

There was is there a game that stands out really? Um Yeah, there's one because I I like wanted to go out and torture the person or the team Or the school That I didn't like, you know, is that other school in michigan? I don't know what their name is But there's only one school in michigan's state, right? No, that's no disrespect to u of m I mean, they're a great institution, but obviously huge

Interstate rivalry and at that time they were like Constantly winning going the rose bull bow sham beckler iconic. I mean so much respect for that guy um But you know, I I probably had games where I had more pancakes or off otfs. We used to call them off the film um Where you drive a guy so far off the like You don't even see him on the film when you're on film next day So I had like probably like some games or more

But there was a certain michigan game that we had where probably maybe had 13 or 14 pancakes Wow, but it's because it was michigan It was sweeter. Yeah, right and um Yeah, it's like I It was interesting like when I look back and I don't think I'm sadistic but I didn't play to make friends

And I didn't play to help you up if you were my opponent. I didn't play dirty Um, there'll be people that say well, you cheated. Okay, and that's legit, but I didn't you know after After michigan's state, you know, it's like I didn't take any steroids But yeah at school. I mean, yeah, did I take steroids? Was it? Yeah, did I cheat? Yeah, I did I was wrong for doing it and I don't recommend that anybody does it um But that drive for for like, you know, you're etiquette and stuff I mean what's in your blood and what's in your heart and what's in your behavior can be different things

Yeah, and you don't you know, there's people that especially guys that I'm talking that are like Well, yeah, but he took steroids and it's like, okay. Well, yeah, why didn't you play in the NFL? Right? Why didn't you become all american? Why didn't you Do all these things of all you had to do is take steroids. Yeah, right? It's like it's like you don't just take steroids Sit around and get jacked. Yeah, everybody every guy would be jacked and have abs, right? You have to put in the work with it Right, right and my work was relentless Because of walking home from some storms Yeah

Because of the head coach I had because the guy who recruited me Nick Saban They were all relentless about work ethic And the way I grew up parents were immigrants. They like literally escaped Put their lives on the line out of a communist country in the 50s. Wow So I'm like thinking to myself. I'm laying there on the field at camp sober in indianapolis my second year there and it's hot as shit in july humid And like just beating up with sweat during stretch, right? You still got to our practice to go and kind of feeling sorry for myself and like

You know, and then I started thinking about a story my mom told me or something Where her mom pulls her out of third grade back in the old country in europe and it was Croatia But it was at that time, igoslavia pulled her out of third grade class and said The guy that was taking care of our sheep in the mountains Has bailed on us. So here's the wooden staff. I need you to go take care of the sheep and keep the wolves off of them Damn that's social studies, right? So good. So when I I would start thinking of those stories and I'd be like You whiny ass

I know You feeling sorry and you're getting paid seven figures and you're bitching about it Of course, this was all internalized, you know, my self-discussion in my head And it helps put things in perspective and it's not tricking yourself. It's legit perspective, right? Like that happened in 55. That wasn't that long ago. Yeah Yeah, we've got I mean, it's even I think about it during this pandemic It's like we're all kind of stuck but then we're all stuck with our machines and our You know trimming our manscape and our penises or whatever everybody's doing. I was doing that way before the pandemic

I was ahead of the game. I was ahead of the game. You might have been ahead of the game there But you know what the pandemic for me? Um, personally has been awesome. Yeah, because like I started to realize I really like psychology and like the study of just observation of people and how they act in human behavior and including my own and It was a fantastic year to do that Yeah, like with the toilet paper phenomenon. Yeah, plus there was a ton of things I had on the back burner that I was gonna eventually get to

Like when I had a lull in photography or I had a lull in something with work I would get to this and so now there was a lull Right. So now I was like, okay. Well, hey, I can do these projects I had on the back burner because I because it was possible. Yeah So now I've got those projects going and so, you know for me Personally it's been a great year and and and not so not as much great monetarily as it's been learning Mm-hmm. It's been freaking phenomenal. It's a good attitude, man Yeah, we talk about perspective and stuff and hear a lot and not battle it every every week and every day

Um, a lot of what you're doing now is photography, right? Yes Did I answer that guy's question? That man said he said Your best game. Yeah, michigan. Oh, yeah, best. So was michigan. Yeah, I was again And what was Sabin like at that time, you know, he was do you remember him fondly or no? Yeah Yeah, I mean I babysat his kids. Oh damn. Yeah Um, I would behave. Nick was uh, oh, yeah

I behave and I'd be alarmed if you freaking bottle fed me dude. I would be alarmed Nick was uh, awesome. Nick is the same guy I mean, he's a different guy today, but he was pretty much the core of him was exactly what he is what you see now He was about fundamentals Discipline keeping things simple removing distractions and do your job You be you should go talk with jaco willing. He'd be great on jaco's podcast. Um, what to put you guys together, man He you guys I'm a huge man. Yeah, he's a good. He's legit. I got his books and stuff Yeah, he's um, he's definitely when I think about giving up which is a couple times a day usually at least one of those times

I won't Yeah, you and me both. Um Yeah, Sabin's unbelievable. It's just it's unprecedented almost what he's done He was a db coach when he recruited me and Ohio was his area Yeah, hmm. So you weren't even on his on his docket. No, he was there looking at another guy Who was one of the stars on our team and Then he said to our head coach at the high school who he knew It's like who's that guy and he told him and everything he goes

I want you know, we want to talk to him and they watch film and stuff and then he they offered me a scholarship and on I remember sitting with nick and Nick was the same. I mean, he's the same. He's a phenomenal human being The guy is like a first-class human being. I mean and terry is wife terry um, they're great people and uh, I was so lucky to be surrounded by some of these people And even all the mistakes I made I was so lucky to be surrounded and amazing and then to watch nick go from this db coach to Possibly being one of the greatest ever college football coaches. Yeah, and then when he went to alabama, I was like, oh, you know, I'm gonna

Uh, like not bear brian to the side. Come on now. I mean there's like a tonic, right now It's like no that could be argued That could be argued because he did it at lsu. Yeah, yeah You know, there's a lot of michigan state people that hate him because he left michigan state as a he was a head coach at Michigan state when he left for lsu, but it's like it's like look man. It's a business. Yeah It's like it's funny how your dreams sometimes when they interact with business how they don't You wish they would go a certain way or be a certain way, but then sometimes the gifts you still get your you still get your dreams It's just not exactly how you'd expect

um Looking back. Do you feel like uh Do you feel like you did the best that you could have playing football? Do you feel like What you did was what you were going to do. That was it. Yeah, I held nothing back. Yeah, I held nothing back at machine state It's like it's almost like oxymoron to say I held nothing back at green bay. I held nothing back drinking and drugging Yeah, but I just wasn't capable of giving them everything that

you know That they had saw on film But then when I got sober I got the chance to go to indy and I was like I literally treated every day like um Like literally like life and death. Wow. It's like if I don't do this today I will die. Hmm and there was times where Do what you mean?

The work right and and not just the time The work at work during the time because you can put in a bunch of time and spin your wheels or you can put in the time and Keep moving forward. Even if it's that small increments because it adds up Yeah um, do you still uh, you speak on on recovery and stuff these days I speak on recovery um adversity and

just a lot on thinking you know like Kind of like there's a talk I give When I speak public do public speaks, uh, which kind of slowed down after the pandemic About and the talk is titled Uh, why not me? Yeah, and then it's got like it's through a four description for the people that book people to speak on what I talk about and

You know, I've always asked myself. Why not me? be the one to Go from canada and I was like 11 years old when I made that decision like I want to play in the NFL Yeah, live in the dream and you really got to live out your dreams and I was like, why not me Right, like why like seriously? Why not? somebody's gonna win the the um powerball Right, so why not me? Well, okay, we gotta take some action. You gotta buy a ticket, right?

So at least you gotta have skin in the game, right? If you don't buy a ticket, you're not serious, right? Right, at least you're trying right you're going to see your sponsor. You're moving. You know one thing You're moving forward. Whether that's the right sponsor or not. You're looking and seeking for right making yourself better Yeah, so that has to be that has to be acknowledged. It has to be acknowledged Well, I think those are the things that build up little bits of esteem inside of yourself You're like, okay. I'm making this choice. I'm this is what I'm gonna do. You know, it's like Whether it goes well or not then you are you already win a little bit because you're like, I'm making this effort Yeah, you know, that's such the hard part sometimes is just you know sharing or raising your hand or

Yeah, I struggle with it too. Yeah, it's hard. It's crazy. Sometimes I'll be in a meeting and I'll everything in my brain I'll be like just share just tell what's going on and I won't you know, I think you like I think when you do like I think Like I'm gonna be honest with you. I've watched a lot of your stuff in the last couple weeks and I'm like fuck, you know like This guy's described a lot of my life Like so you like it's like there's so many common things but The state I like the least in the whole union is Louisiana. Yeah

I just it's just one of those states that I've gone there like three or four times to play the saints And it's always been smoggy and smelly. Yeah, so like that's my impression of Louisiana There's so much tradition there and and like stuff and like culture and stuff that I You know like I know about but I really don't know about right and it's like it's it's it's not a disrespect to the beat It was just kind of like every time I've gone there. It's kind of been dirty and smelly Yeah, sometimes you get those experiences in places So it's like, you know, but I'm sure there's people like, you know, you live in the desert in Arizona. It's like

Like, you know, yeah, they got a lot of serpents out there. Yeah and scorpions and People have crystals and you're trying to get that money Oh, they stick out like a swamp. Oh my god, the red flags walking around all they need is a sickle and a dammer Uh, yeah, connection is so key man. It's crazy. Our connection breaks down the different things that we Well, you know, I Yeah The other day you had said something when you do your like, uh solo podcast

You do like a lot of talking about what's going on and stuff and you talked about You had said something I was like, I can fucking relate to that shit there I pulled into a donut shop and I started crying. Oh, wow didn't get out of my vehicle You go wasn't touching myself. Yeah. No. No when I was listening to you was watching it on the youtube You're like, wait a second But you know, and then you kind of right right and I'm like, yeah, I know that feeling And it's like, you know, you think like like you shared it. It's real. It's transparent Yeah, but you don't know how that affects other people right because I was like, oh fuck

I know that feeling it may not have been a donut shop might have been a denny's right that I pulled into Or it just might have been an empty parking lot that I pulled into and started feeling sorry for myself If that was the case for me or whatever the case was and then, you know I love the fact that you can laugh at yourself because you crack a joke While you're doing it and you do it without laughing. Can you say well, I was calm, but I wasn't touching myself. Yeah glad I wasn't Because people walking by you get arrested for that. Well, yeah, now you're right. Yeah, you get a long john with cream in it. Yeah Dude, that's your that's the original Tim Hortons right there dude. It's some guy masturbate

That's crazy, man. Yeah, I was just having a day, man. I just had a weird morning It was just kind of lonesome and I went there and then my brother's talking to me and my brother's been doing this thing recently like when we're on the phone if I'm talking about like How I'm feeling or just something that's going on like he'll be like, oh if you need me to stay on the phone with you After we're done talking, I'll just sit here with you, you know And I won't say anything And you don't have to say anything right and he's like, I'll just sit here with you That's pretty cool. You know and man it just like that's pretty cool

I mean that's it was crazy because I just never had anybody say, hey, you know No matter what you're feeling or thinking right now. It's okay. I'm just gonna be here with you And it you don't have to say anything and I don't have to say anything and I and I'm just here for you and man it just Powerful. Oh, it just like it just it it gets uncontrollable. I'm just like man. That's powerful, you know That's real shit. It's not but I think that's authentic real stuff and you find out who the real who who's in your Who's loyal to you? Yeah Like and there's different levels. I guess of loyalty different degrees of loyalty, but Like when it comes to life and death, I'm talking. Yeah, that's the only loyalty. I want I'm talking about is like I'll be

In your corner, even if you're wrong. Yeah, like that's the kind of loyalty I'm looking for and I have less than in my at 54 years old I have less than that on you know on one hand like less than five people less than four people Well, it's it's interesting because the one of the remarkable things about it for me sometimes is that I think some of my Reality and the A little bit of the pain that comes with it is that I don't know if I'm ever that for anyone

And so some of it is told realization. I just shared with you about the donut thing and it wasn't It was a funny thing. Oh, that's interesting. And I'm sure people were like, well, that was like out of left field But here I am at 20 almost 26 years. So we're going like it made me stop. It stopped me in my tracks Yeah, so I was doing shit around the where I live I was doing something right and I had your podcast on and I was listening to it and and I was like I was like lumping my throat. I was like, I know exactly what that feels like. Yeah So you never know what we say And we may think it's something like minutia doesn't it important

Um, but it'll affect people. Yeah, and it may Help somebody that's on the fence say, you know what if If that jackass tony can do it I can do it Like I can write over I can at least try and you know what there's a lot of pasta sobriety The 12 steps aren't the only way It was the way that worked for me. Yeah, and I don't question it and I back it up and I'll help any I'll help somebody if they think You know if they think having a crystal in front of them or something as long as it's not crystal math

A Sedona crystal. Oh, yeah, if they think that's going to get them sober Okay, so be it's like all right Look if you're trying to improve your life and if you don't drink and it's like well, you can't be you know drop an acid Around a crystal try not to drink because well, that's kind of you know, you're yeah, you got to give something into the program That's the thing about it. You know, it's like you just you have to give you have to give up something That's the only reason there is any value to it to you Um, and especially when you're somebody who has always taken just for yourself to have to give something up That's a really hard thing to do. It is uh to really give it up and say you can't you're not going to do it

You know, so then I want something in return So that activates a part of me that's going to really seek out to probably get better Because I'll be damned if I'm going to give something and not get something right because that's the way that I felt growing up like Um Like if somebody cared about me that they it was a give and get situation like It was all transactional, right, you know, even if it really wasn't right may have been right, right But that's how it registered inside of me, you know, and the cash register inside of my heart or whatever That's how it registered that it was a transaction and that's not

Quite like that feeling when you freely give selflessly. Yeah and expect nothing in return Now if something does come back in return, so be it, but if you don't expect anything, you're good. Yeah, it's like there was times that There were times and I noticed this after it happened And this would be years a couple, you know more than five years ago I would on Thanksgiving sometimes or if it was Christmas or whatever I would just show up at the phoenix elevation army downtown And I'd be like, um, I've got four hours

What do you need me to do? Like I can put meals on the table for uh, the people I can wash dishes I can bus tables. I can do it. I take garbages out. Do you spinal adjustment? You probably could We need you to crack people's backs over here by the by the uh, uh, by the stuff pancake this guy You know, it's like so you show up and you do that, right? And it's the humanly right. It's a good thing to do if you have if you know, if that's something that It motivates you So when I've done that before and then

I've shared it On social media like maybe a picture and not bragging just shared like uh, you know I was lucky to be able to do this today, right? Then I've done that And not shared it on social media and just shared it with some friends and then I've done that And not shared it with anybody. Hmm And it's funny because when I don't share that with anybody and I just go do it I get the most out of it. Wow

It's kind of like That when doing the right thing and doing the stuff when people aren't watching It's like you still do the right thing so it's like As much as I I want to say well, it's my ego that wants other people to know look at the good stuff. I'm doing, right Even if I just tell my close circle I'm still part of it the way I don't think that and you know people to do that. There's nothing wrong with that No, but I kind of looked at all three of those situations and I found that I got the most out of it

Because I knew, you know, I believe in God. So I knew God knew right I knew And I was just trying to be of service to God's kids Yeah, and those people the only difference between the people those people and me when I was drinking was time Because it was only a matter of time before I was going to be at that table with them If I was lucky to be at that table with them if I wasn't dead Yeah, man, it's it's interesting to hear that especially in a day where we live in such a place Where we want to share things and how we do it and how our communication is You know our mouths are our phones now. It's like that's um

It's interesting, man, but it's a nice reminder, you know, it's a nice reminder of uh Especially going into the holiday season, man. Um, I gotta get some photos taken And can can can you take me to Tony's pictures real quick, please nick? um Nick forgot his charger at home. That's okay Nick's right. We're gonna finish up quick seven percent. That's how nick always is I got one right behind Nick's always on about a seven percent man, but he's but he the other 93% he spent it He definitely spent it getting his job done

um It's not because he just showed up was you know, he spent it Right. He spent it wisely. Wow. This is awesome, man So you got into this photography. How did it tell me to take me through that, man? We know like the big catalyst was the si cover. That's a big catalyst, right? I'm catalyzed You're in ketosis right now. Yeah Oh, this is interesting. Yeah, it's like a lot of it's compositing. Um, so I think uh, we'll have a plan

we'll take the picture of the person in studio and then um Um, whatever the plan is we'll uh You know add the composite and usually I try to make nine any composite. I do I try to make the Picture like the background picture the picture I took whether it was a shiprock or whatever like Oh, I see what you're saying. She'll take a virtual photo of a person and then put it on another photo of a that I took Right, right Interesting this one like that one is cool. Like how many that thing got a ton of likes

I I believe this is the one that got a ton of likes, but here's the funny thing. That was 120 weeks ago Okay, so 79,000 views. Okay. I got home And I saw this clouds like that like they weren't moving. That's time lapse, right to do the shot taken every say three or four seconds five seconds and I took my camera and I literally all I did was I put it on top of my jeep No trifle. I just put on top of my jeep kind of try to make it as level as possible I set the timer to record and I hit set and my camera was like a

decent camera It's like five or six thousand bucks. So I was like, well, I gotta hang out Just like walk away from the jeep. I'm not in the middle of a desert where you can walk away from the jeep and And that thing ended up getting a ton of views and it's like one of it was one of the most simple and unexpected photos You know and like that you can see the before and after there the of the gentleman with the white tank on You know, it's like that's like that when you see the final shot or that's like the behind-the-scenes shot And then you see the final shot. Oh, it's interesting and it's like a lot of people will say well I never thought it would look like that. Yeah

And a lot of times the person can't picture what I'm picturing Because I have an idea and we try to get on the same page with a lot of stuff Like that one of the Milky Way there. Yeah, that was I was looking at the other one. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you were looking at the Milky Way I Was looking at her anus, right? And that's out of line and I'm sorry too. No, it ain't. Yeah, you're right. That's a planet. Isn't it? Well, yeah, you're talking about So, you know, they see the Milky Way coming up. Wow

So that was at Goblin Valley and what is that lasers right there? What is that laser? Those are uh, actually those are Some of them are shooting stars, but most of them are planes Wow, most of them are planes. You can tell the difference between a shooting star and a plane By certain things. Those are planes right there. That's dope, dude. Isn't that cool? Yeah, that's crazy That's in the middle of freaking nowhere. That's really really cool. And I love it Dude, I'll have well as to do some pictures sometime when I get out there Absolutely, that'd be super cool to get something neat. I think I think Get something exciting. Yeah, and just something that really like especially, you know, it'd be cool to do something

With my boy. Oh, that's a puppy you have. Well, yeah, he's uh, a Newfoundland a brown Newfoundland. He's a really good dog He's the best. So he's from what? He's from another country? Well, he's from the from the province of Newfoundland, which is east coast of canada Yeah, I think I met someone there off the internet once Halifax Yeah, Halifax is yeah They out there. Yeah, they're uh It's nice over there. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's uh, cold off the ocean. Yeah, it seems really

Like you just marry whoever you meet first kind of thing. Just make sure they're in your family. Yeah Yeah, well, it's a different, you know, times I think we'll see more of that coming up in the future Worth the assurge of numbers. Well, I think people are tired of just meeting people outside of their families, honestly I really do. I think people are like, oh, this isn't working out Yeah, a lot of avenues of humanity aren't really working out that well It's kind of like a big shakeout just happened of riffraff. Yeah, it's crazy. I'm yeah, like But man, I'm glad to be a part of your tribe, Tony and and I'm so thankful that you came in I'm grateful I got asked to be on and and um

I I I feel I can call you a friend. Yeah, you can't man It was it was I mean watching a lot of your stuff I watched a lot of your stuff because not because uh not like I started watching some of it just to make sure you were legit Uh-huh, right because I mean I just don't watch much of that like certain genre stuff, right And when I started watching I couldn't stop watching And they started losing track of time and then when I start losing track of time when I'm doing something I know I'm doing something good. Like I know I'm doing something that I'm into

So it's like it always kept me interested In what like you were and the diversity of people that you'll have on or talk to and then when you do the solo ones When you just are reflecting about stuff you say funny like funny stuff Obviously, I find it hilarious because I can relate to so much of it. It's like my movie is dumb and dumber, right? It's like I can relate to it because that's I'm freaking Lloyd, right? But it's like it's like I catch myself I probably banked 20 hours of of whether YouTube or pop So I'm like no like this I can relate to this guy this guy adds like this Show adds to my life

Even the stupidity part of it adds to my life because I can relate right, but there's so many things that go deep Yeah, that you know, like we'll stop me on my tracks and it's hard to stop me on my tracks That's probably because I walk with purpose that I got shit to do And I got shit this I got time to stop and just waste time because time is limited for me It's interesting how as we get older starts to get a little bit limited If somebody ever said do you want to try to stop 20 minutes in his tracks? I would have said no Please I'm gonna send Mick in to do this job Man, no, it's a pleasure man. It's a it's a pleasure to talk to somebody, you know

I think I needed to be around somebody today that's in the program and just you know I don't think you know just how much I needed that in my own life today So I think even you being here is kind of like a service call in ways that you probably can't even know, you know Right, right. Um, and that is reciprocal, right? That works both ways. Yeah, and it's cool, man And yeah, I'm here for you and and we'd love to have you back some time and uh And just thank you, bro. Thanks for coming in today, man. It's an honor. I'm grateful. I'm I'm honored to To be on the show and yeah, it's cool, man. You just never know how things are happening I mean literally what happened was I saw 15 seconds of

Uh a video about you probably like six weeks ago and um, probably the e 60 special or something that did it last year Maybe yeah, and I'm not even sure what it was. It was like a no, this was just a clip There's just a clip on top and I was like, oh man This is so interesting and nick is a huge greened Packers fan And so I was like, oh, this is this seems like it would be something that we could talk about and then once I looked More into you saw the recovery and stuff. I was like, oh, this should be pretty cool No, I appreciate it's uh and and I know that Somebody that listens to this

It'll help somebody. Yeah, it'll help and for somebody to reiterate that I am and I ask yeah Where some people it'll it'll be like if they can do it. Yeah, why can't I do it? Why can't I get sober if they can get sober? Yeah, right. Yeah, I think and we're made of the same stuff As far as the laws of nature. Oh, it's a simple recipe, man It's and we're just pretty caught, you know, why not me? Yeah, why not me, man? Why not me gets over why not stay sober and not have to go back? Yeah That's the way I look at it Yeah, I think especially right now, man. It's a good message for a lot of people, you know

Um Tony mentors. Thank you so much, bro. Thanks, bro. Now. I'm just on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be cornerstone Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this piece of mind. I found I can feel it in my bones But it's gonna take a little time for me to set that parking brake and let myself on one Shine that light on me I'll sit and tell you my story Shine on me

And I will find a song, I will sing it just for you And now I've been moving way too fast on a runaway train with a heavy load of my past And these wheels that I've been riding on, they want something that they're damn they're gonna I guess now they just work