This Podcast Is... Uncalled For - National Nude Day Special

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Today we celebrate National Nude Day with a family-friendly naturist episode of the podcast. We are joined by naturists Dan Hawkins, Ashley Papavero, and Kip Gineau about their experiences in the nude world, what they most enjoy about nude living, and how others can give it a try.

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Flip-flops parked in. To the podcast's very special episode today, happy national nude. day. Yes, you heard that correctly. If you are a somewhat regular listener to the podcast, you know I identify as a naturist. You might also be familiar with the term nudist. Other way, I do like to be naked from time to time. And that's what today's episode is about. We're going to be interviewing fellow naturists. and get their take on this lifestyle that we share. So today is July 14. It is National New Day. This is annual holiday. That's why I chose this holiday.

Also, it's On Natural Day. This unofficial holiday encourages body, positivity, natureism, and shedding clothing restrictions. It is typically celebrated at designated clothing optional resorts, beaches, or by streaking and enjoying the outdoors. If you're looking to observe the day responsibly and legally, always research local zoning and decency laws first. You can find vetted clothing optional locations. clubs and resorts through ANR, the American Association, for Nude Recreation,

or by looking up local naturess groups on the Naturist Society website, naturesociety.com. But yeah, we'll go on. Let's do a, we'll read about naturism from the INF. This is the international natuist Federation. If you've never tried natureism before, a new experience awaits. The next time you go to the beach, just imagine stepping out of all your clothes and feeling the sun warm your body, warm your whole body, as the gentle sea breeze crosses your skin. Then swim in the warm sea, a delightful, natural feeling that everyone should try. Bear skin dries much more readily than swimming costumes No need for the towel dance when again dressed

And no wet costume to carry or travel in New recreation is a great way to unwind and get back to basics And the beach is only one place where you can enjoy it Clubs associations and events are available on many countries countries worldwide, including right here in the United States, meaning it's possible to participate in natureism all year around, not just while you're on holiday. Clearly not American English, but that's okay. Natureism is practiced by millions of people around the world who understand that it is enjoyable. It is good for mental and physical health.

boosts self-confidence and counter his body shame isn't sexual side notes that is a great way to get a nude beach or a nature's club shut down is to engage in active sexual behavior so that is totally not allowed all right and is legal in many countries natureism helps us feel more connected with nature and promotes respect for others, for ourselves, and for the environment. It was defined in 1974 as follows. Natureism is a way of life in harmony with nature, characterized by the practice of communal nudity, with the intention of encouraging self-respect, respect for others. and for the environment. Natureism, nudism, and nude recreation. The INF and FNI,

which is basically the same thing just in French, is an inclusive organization. It recently updated its statutes to make clear that whether you call it naturesim, nudism, or non-sexual nude recreation, the INFFFNI is for you. That's a bit of a mouthful, however. So we use the word natureism throughout this website.

So we do not have to keep repeating it. Social nudity. Many first-timers worry about being seen naked by other people. The experience of many regular natures is that this feeling wears off quickly, often within minutes, as people realize that nobody is looking at you. Bodies come in all shapes and sizes, and it's okay if you don't have the body of a film star, model, or super fit athlete. Naturists are friendly people, and the definition of naturism is centered on respect for ourselves and for others. social nudity promotes self-confidence and encounters body shame.

A way of life. The 1974 definition of natureism describes it as a way of life. Quote, notes, they didn't use the word lifestyle. Lifestyle means swinging in these communities. So we tend to avoid that word lifestyle. So a main naturists consider naturism is central to who they are and embrace social nudity as often as they can. But there's a huge spectrum ranging from dedicated naturess to people who visit nature's clubs and events at weekends or go on holiday to nature's resorts and to others who only visit nude beaches when they are on holiday or enjoy occasional naked. recreation. Many people just like being categorized and that's fine. Wherever you fit on the

spectrum, there will be a warm welcome for you among the clubs and federations that make up our world naturist family. Whether you're an experienced natureist or skinny dipper or if you're new to natureism, are you a member of a National Naturist Federation, whether through a club or individually? I'm not part of a national organization

nor do I really want to be right now. And the club I belong to with the Heartland Naturists, we're having that discussion right now. I say as someone who is on the board of said organization. If you enjoy the pleasure

of natureism on beaches and clubs or anywhere else, remember that your right to enjoy going nude is often the result of years of tireless campaigning by your National Federation. If you're not a member, please consider joining in order to

support your Federation. Remember, the more members the Federation has, the stronger its voice in campaigning for nature's rights and you can find your naturess variation at this link

if there is no national federation in your country you can join the INFFFNI yeah so I don't believe

ANR is part of this but I will take a look anyway and I know Canada is part of now yeah the United States

is no longer parts of the INF. But that is an organization that you can ask questions of and such. And same with the Nature's Federation. Nature's Federation deals more with, has historical done more with the nude beach, of things here in the U.S. And all that, whereas Anner has been focused historically more on the resorts and campgrounds and all that. So it's entirely up to you, which one you would choose.

But the laws they, the rules they have, F clubs follow are pretty pretty. consistent anything and no sexual behavior always sit on a towel and stuff like that so the rest of this episode we will be talking with fellow natures about their experiences

whether or not they have any advice for people and I will end this part of the episode with a challenge to content creators who are themselves natures, even though your content might not be naturist in nature. It is worth exploring at least once.

Worth getting out there and exploring natureism, talking to your audience about it. And, yeah, I'm doing that right now. This is not necessarily a naturist podcast, but I'm devoting this particular episode. to the subject. So without further ado, let's talk with some naked people. So this is the first part of our National Nude Day presentation. And I am joined by Dan Hawkins. Stan, good morning. Good morning.

Tell us a little about yourself. Well, I have been a nudist, natures since 1985, well, I guess 84. I graduated high school in 84, went off to college and started modeling for art classes there, nude. And the following summer, I made my way out to my first nudist resort. It was a little place just, I don't know, about 50 miles east of Dallas called the Pondurasia Ranch. And just loved it. And went back there a few times, never became a full member. but and then I got married my first wife didn't want anything to do with natureism so I kind of backed off of it we split up in we got married in 89 we split up in 98 and jumped right back into it and

I'm currently the president of the southwest region of ANR the American Association for New Recreation All right awesome awesome yeah so a little bit about my history with nature is some I'm a member of Harlan Natures of Kansas City, which is not an Anner Club. We are having that discussion right now, whether we, whether that we should. Because they're both pros and cons to become an Anner club. I'm not, and that was 20 years ago, is when I first started going to Harlan. In terms of nude recreation around my area, we have Camp Gaia, which isn't technically nudist, but it's spiritual retreats that is used predominantly by local pagans,

and they do allow nudity on most of the property. So the interesting thing is they have a beach next to a lake. Well, that lake, in order to get to that beach, you have to walk across the levee. And the levee happens to be right next to the main entrance to the property. And you can't be fully nude. You can be top-free, topless. But you have to wrap around the wastes. Make sure your journalists are covered up.

And then once you cross the levee, you're going to. can be nude. Which is interesting quirk, but it is what it is. Yeah. And if I recently started taking nude yoga classes, one of our Heartland members does a monthly nude yoga class. And I've started going to that. And every time I'm thinking, oh, I am entirely sore and as shape. Yeah, I go to a festival.

I've been three years. They postponed it at the last minute this year, so I didn't get to go this year. But it's usually in April when I've been the last three years. And it's a festival based on ecstatic dance and yoga, those type of practices. and before I went, I, you know, I read the website and they said, you know, they want their participants to be at their full expression. And I wrote them and said, you know, I'm a professional nude model. I'm a nudist.

Does that mean I can be nude if I want, if I consider that my full expression? And they took a little while and then wrote back and said, said, yes, that there went to allow that. And so the first year I went, I took down the first night. I got there and went to the ecstatic dance and had a wonderful time. It's just so freeing to dance naked. And, you know, I was the only naked person there. And the next morning I got up and thought, you know,

the instructions say be it your fullest expression at all times. So I'm thinking, okay, I'm not going to get dressed. I'm going to see how this goes. Went down to the area, the common area where the vendors were and everything. you know, the only things that people said to me were positive. They thanked me for being free to be myself and making them feel more free to be themselves, even though they didn't take their clothes off. One young lady did.

She was naked not too long after she saw me, and she said Blake told me that seeing me gave her the confidence to do it. Yeah, it's a, and the last year I went, I actually led it work somewhere. a life drawing workshop. So I've been brought into the fold of that family that built around that festival. And usually I'm the only naked person. And I'm just known as, you know,

it's like cheers. I walk in and everybody knows my name. His name's Dan. But they did have morning yoga workshops. And I did some morning yoga. I was naked. Nobody else was. everybody else had clothes on.

And it was done outdoors under this little canopy tent. And it was a wonderful time. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. So nude modeling, that's something I'm not had the opportunity to try. We do have a couple of art schools in my area,

but I don't know. I don't know if that's particular for me, but go on tell me a little bit of how that, how that works. Well, you know, I was an 18-year-old college freshman in the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville. Raise it back, sir. Yeah, I had seen a three's company episode where Jack Tripper is dating this, or trying to date this woman who's an art teacher. And she says that, you know, her model didn't show up.

And she needed a model fast. And so Jack Tripper, played by John Ritter, volunteers, and he gets to the class and he didn't realize it was nude modeling. But he goes through it with it anyway, because he really likes this girl. And the punchline of the episode was his landlord, Mr. Furley, played by Don Nott, walks into the room with his drawing pad under his arm and his face just all contorts when he sees Jack up there. It's funny episode. But I had seen that while I was still in high school. So I met away at college. So I knew that they drew nude models in art classes.

But I didn't, you know, I thought that was like a. New York or LA thing. You know, I didn't know, I didn't think University of Arkansas and Fayetteville would do it. But I was talking to one of the, a girl in the dining hall. And she said that they drew new models in her drawing class. And I just immediately wanted to do it. And I probably thought about what it might be like as I watched that Three's Company episode back in high school. You know, so I went in and filled out or talked to the person.

They had a, they had a Tuesday evening open session. and where I'm going to go and draw, you know, just pay, you know, contribute money to pay the model. So that was the first gig I did and it was on election night. I got the call late. Apparently the model they had had canceled and I agreed to do it like at less than an hour to get myself mentally ready to go do this. Took a long walk around the campus and went in and only two people showed up to draw and they were, you know, two women. And they were older than typical college students. But it was a great session.

I mean, I didn't know what I was doing, but I enjoyed it. And the following semester in February, I started modeling for the regular four-credit figure drawing course and did that several times. There were only five students in the class. So I guess it barely made that semester. But toward the end of the semester, the teacher asked me to model for her intermediate drawing class. So I said, sure, because I really liked the modeling. So I walk into that class, and there's like 20-something people in it, students. And the room was packed.

And I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't know if I can do this. But I did it anyway. Got undressed and started doing poses. And by the time the class was over, I didn't want to have to get dressed again. There was just an energy with more people in the room. And to this day, I still love the bigger classes with more people. people, more people, more energy. And I just enjoy it.

So the next year, I had transferred to UT Arlington here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and modeled for classes there. Texas Wesleyan University, I mean it was just called Texas Wesleyan College back then. So it's still 85-86. But I model for a lot of different schools now. I've been doing it, you know, 40, 41 years now. like I said, there were a few years during my first marriage where I stopped modeling, but got back into it not long after we split up.

And yeah, I love the job. You know, I'll probably do it until I can't take a pose anymore. Right. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. Yeah. So I do know locally we have the KC Art Institute, which I believe Walt Disney is a graduate, of another thing, but so in fact,

Walt Disney is responsible for my alma mater, University of Missouri, Kansas City, where the ruse in parts because of Disney. Yeah. So I actually lived in Kansas City for a short time when I was in

kindergarten. I went to, I don't remember the name of school, but we lived in I think it was North Kansas City. Okay, yeah, I work in North Kansas City. Yeah. I think it was on Parvin Drive. It was a bunch of condominiums. I went back to Kansas City in 2006 and found that place where we lived, you know, because we moved out in 1972. So it was a long time ago.

I found a place and it still looked kind of like I remembered it, you know, a little kid, you know, my memories. You know, everything had shrunk or I'd got bigger, one or the other. Maybe a little, probably a little bit of both because, yeah, the Northland continues to grow, I think, And, yeah, my, I work up there. So I live in the Kansas suburbs. So, yeah. But yeah, that's, that's really cool to hear the story of how you got into modeling and all that. I've had a couple models on the podcast.

And none of them, I know, has done nude modeling for artists and stuff. I don't know if they're doing art classes and everything. And you bring up another good points. Colleges for anyone, you don't have to be a certain age to go to college. As long as you're an adult, wanting to improve your skills. College is for you. Yeah. Yeah, I'm all for some of the community colleges around here too,

which are kind of considered two-year colleges to continue prep people for the university. I'm a model for classes there I'm like I say I'm model for I don't know how many different institutions you know there's a lot of them in Dallas Fort Worth were a major Oh yeah Major metropolitan area Yeah yeah yeah yeah

All right So So assuming people can't get into modeling But want to get natureism a try Do you have any advice for any of those people Um To give it a try

it's probably not what you're going to expect. It's not sexual. It's more about the freedom. In fact, one of the workshops I was going to lead at Dragonfly Festival before it got canceled at the last minute was a natureism, a nature is a 101

course. I was going to talk about the history of the history of the history of, you know, how nudist resorts started popping up in the late 1920s, early 1930s. And, you know, the etiquette you know, always have a towel to sit on if you're bare. You know, eye contact is very important. I mean, you look, but you don't stare.

You see other people, but it's not, I was going to have him do an exercise where we all stand up and close our eyes and then they can undress to their comfort level if they're not already nude because I was going to make the workshop clothing optional. And then to just kind of talk them into feeling the breeze. feeling the sunshine, feeling the warmth of the sun on your skin. Because that's kind of what it's about. It's about being yourself and being free and open. And when you do that in a social setting,

you see people for just themselves. You know, when you're naked, you know, the person you're talking to, he could be a CEO of a major company, or he could, you know, be a fast, food worker. You don't know because, you know, all those, that's so much of what we wear denotes our status in the world or our level of success or whatever. And when you strip all that away, you're just a person. So that's, that's kind of the beauty of social nudism, I think. Yeah. I would add, probably start, you know, at home, you know, just being naked more at home

before you get into the social aspect of it. Sleeping naked is a good exercise. Because, I mean, think about it, we're supposed to be spending a third of our time in bed, resting, and that's a perfect time to experience it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, of course, Heartland, we do.

monthly swims. So we rent a, we wear a local indoor pool and they let us use it for a couple of hours and that is a perfect opportunity to experience nature as

because yes, you're naked but you're in a body of water and that keeps you pretty much concealed if you will. But, but At the same time, you're experiencing the feeling of the water against your skin.

And once you've swam naked, you won't wear a swimsuit ever again. I haven't worn a swimsuit in, I don't know how many years. You know, if I'm at a situation where, you know, there's a pool, but I have to wear a swimsuit to get in the pool, then I just don't get in the pool. Yeah. You know, because it's just, you know, you get out of the pool with a swimsuit on. And it's, you know, your body dries pretty quickly. Yeah.

actually, but the swimsuit doesn't. It retains the water. It hangs off of you. It's just, it's just, it gets this cold, climbing feeling. It's just, it's, it's not a good feeling. It's, you know, swimming naked is much better. Yeah. I'm seeing that.

Yeah, I'm going to use my, I have two nieces and a nephew, all of them underage right now. They swim fully clothed, um, as in their bathing suits are, cover their whole bodies. In my nephews, Casey, wears a t-shirt to go swimming. And I don't want to criticize my brother's parenting skills at all, and knowing that they're not naturists themselves. But in my opinion, those kids are going to be very uncomfortable

getting out of the water. Yeah, I've noticed in the last few years, a it seems like the fear of the body, the fear of our human bodies has grown. I was talking to somebody the other day. I applied to do a show

at a French festival based on my art modeling, you know, a model log while I'm in a pose, nude. And I was telling him that it's changed. I just noticed the way that they run the classes. Like nowadays,

when the model's posing, they all have a sign on the door saying do not enter. And then most places they'll have the door locked. You know, and I was telling him about a teacher I modeled for in the early 90s at UNT, University of North Texas.

And she didn't even bother to close the door most of the time. You know, and people walking in the hall and see the class and see me naked and in a pose. That wouldn't happen today at all. And then there was another session I did at a bar.

There was a bar in Fort Worth called shipping and receiving. And of course, it's been sold, it got sold during COVID, I think. So it's called something else. And I don't think it's as artist friendly as it was then even. But, you know, this was in 2016. There was a group that I modeled for regularly, and they modeled at different art studios,

artist studios around Fort Worth. And we'd had a special session in the bar because the bartender that night was an artist. It was on a Monday or Tuesday night. It was a very slow night for the bar anyway. So I walked in and said, where were we going to do this? He said, just right there in front of the bar. Because he wanted to draw two, so he wanted to be able to see them all.

And he said, well, should I wear anything? And he told me it was totally up to you. Well, it's up to me. I'm not wearing anything. So I did. I started down and did some poses. And that class, that session was so fun. You know, it was entertaining for me.

It's when people did come into, because the bar was still open. people could walk in, come up to the bar and order something. And it was funny watching people's faces and their facial reactions when they walked in and saw a little art session going on. I think there were only like five artists drawing that night. I don't see that happening now, even just 10 years later, because there's just fear of nude bodies. You know, they're building new fitness centers, health clubs, and they're making. the locker rooms to where you have to change in a private little cubbyhole rather than just out in the locker room because of this fear that just, I don't know if it's fear or just

dislike or I don't know, just, I don't know what it is. It's, it's, it's, I'm trying to change it, you know, I've written five novels that are kind of nature of space. My pen name is D.H. Jonathan, if you're interested in going to look at him. I just acted in two, movies that are nudist related. One is already out. It's called Naked is created. The Pastor Jim Moore story. It's very much a Christian faith-based movie because Pastor Jim Moore, the real

Pastor Jim Moore wouldn't have let us do it if it wasn't. And it's based on a true story, his true story, where he, you know, somebody comes to him in the church and asks him to talk somebody else out of being a nudist. And he said, okay, well, that's probably not going to be a problem, but I'm going to study my Bible. I want to give them scripture rather than just my opinion. And so he does. He does this exhaustive study of the Bible. And he not only finds nothing wrong with natureism, he, he determines that it's probably a preferred way of living. So he becomes a new Buddhist himself. And of course, he gets fired from a couple of churches. This is the story of the movie. He gets fired from a couple

of churches. It winds up starting his own ministry. But that movie is out now on Amazon Prime for rent or purchase, and you can get a DVD or Blu-ray of it, too. And I play one of the bad guys. I play one of the editors who's publishing stories, you know, calling him like Pastor Perv or whatnot. It was a fun movie to do. We shot it during the fires in L.A. You know, I drove out to Los Angeles to shoot the movie. So I had my car with me.

I was glad I did. It was when we got evacuated from where we were saying. I had a car that I could drive. Right. It was strange driving at 4 a.m. with the fires everywhere. It did. It looked like Mordor or something.

But we got the movie finished. We wound up going to Shangri-Law in Arizona to shoot the resort scene since we couldn't shoot it at the place we were staying in Altadena, California. That movie's out. And then in the fall, late September, early October, we shot a horror movie called Naked Alien Massacre. And that one is still in post-production. And I play the owner of a nudist resort in that one.

So I got to be naked for every scene I was in. That's pretty cool. I was wearing too many clothes in the first movie. Yeah. I believe Tim Chesmire is involved. Yeah, Tim Chesmire was the producer. He directed Nakeda Lian Massacre. We had an Australian director named Mark Savage

directed the pastor movie, the first movie, the one that's already out. Yeah. I know he's been big in the nudist media the last few years. and such a Yeah, the naked as created was on the list, on the faith and spirituality

Amazon bestsellers list for a little while. In fact, I think it's still on there. It's like it's fallen to number 16, but it was up as high as number five I saw. Like outselling some of the seasons of the chosen, stuff like that, which is strange.

You know, it's a Christian faith-based movie, but it's a nudist movie, and it's got full frontal nudity in it, probably the only. Christian faith-based movie with full frontal nudity. So it's an unusual movie. Yeah. Chances 225,

you know, Adam and Eve, we're naked and unashamed. Yeah, well, the production company, Jim Moore's production company, is Genesis 225 productions. Cool. Cool.

That is awesome. Yeah, that leads into another interesting a discussion points natureism and I want to say

religion overall not singling out Christianity but we are in the United States and most people

in the U.S. are Christians. So yeah we could point to Genesis 229 as an example of

the Bible supporting natureism some will take chapter some will take chapter three of genesis and uh this is why we can't be uh naked because uh amony've sinned and uh well it wasn't so much that they committed the sin it was their reaction to committing the sin that caused them to hide part of their bodies there was they who did it.

God just helped them out. Said, okay, those big leaves aren't going to work. If you were the one to cover yourself, here, here's some animal skins. Yeah. So it wasn't God clothing them. It was just God helping them clothe themselves. Right. If you look at Isaiah chapter 20, God tells Isaiah to go naked and barefoot for three years,

you know, as he's prophesying, which apparently wasn't that uncommon. for prophets to prophesy and nude because in there's, I think it's in one of this Samuels, King Saul, the first king of Israel was naked and raving on the ground or something and everybody thought he had become a prophet because apparently prophets are naked and prophesied. It was just a common thing. In fact, in, well, biblical times, a set of clothing was like a car, you know, they were not easy to make and create. Right.

And if you did any hard manual labor like gardening or fishing or whatever, you took it off because you don't want to ruin your only set of clothes. So nudity was really common in the biblical times. It's only with the advent of indoor plumbing that we're not naked outside very often anymore. Right, right. And again, the certain Christian misinterpretations of. these very Bible verses that we're talking about two. And you don't have to look strictly Christianity, for examples of nudity being good in a religious setting.

Of course, I think of neo-paganism is a good example when they do their rituals skyclad. I talked about Camp Guy, you know, being a pagan. place and everything several uh several traditions in India

come to mind as well um most notably the um I'm going butcher this the Nagasadus I believe is what they call themselves

in the Hinduism and the Degambaras in a Jainism uh yeah the Degambaras are noble because

those are uh yeah they The monks, and it is just the monks, and unfortunately, no nuns do this. They commit to living naked, and they plug every hair off of their bodies. And so they're just naked and bald and carrying it around a broom sweeping in front of them, make sure they don't kill anything accidentally. And so, and, yeah, so there are traditions out there that say, this is okay. Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up Christian and I don't know that much about other religions in the world. I wish I did because, you know, I might have been more richer. I don't know if you know I was a contestant on who wants to be a millionaire in 2001.

Oh, that's cool. And host Regis Philbin saw on my car that I was a nude model. So that's all he wanted to talk about. So if you watch my millionaire appearance and it's on it's on YouTube in like three different videos in YouTube. He talks a lot about my nude modeling. there are a lot. But the question that I missed was on the origins of Buddhism, like where it was. And I said China when I wish I'd said India. So I wish I'd be more about world religions. Yeah. Because I'd be a lot richer if I did.

Yeah. Yeah. Buddhism is a tough one because it did start in India. Yes. Yeah. But a lot of Chinese practice it as well. A lot of other Asian countries, East Asian countries practice. It's in different forms. Taravada, Mahayana, Tibetan, Zen. And the cool thing about Buddhism,

from my understanding, is you can practice, you could be a Christian and practice Buddhism, I think. Yeah. Yeah. There was,

there's a lot of Buddhist, I don't know, imagery, symbolism in the festival that I go to, the Dragon Plot Festival. Yeah, cool. I tell them and say, I'm kind of embarrassed.

to tell y'all what the question I missed on me and there was. But yeah, I was raised Christian, in my case, Catholic. I was raised, and then I spent time in the Mormon church, and this was before I became a naturist. In Mormonism in particular, since we're talking about the nudity taboo, in Mormonism, they have the temples, right, and go through the temple rituals. there's one temple ritual called the

Endowment, which is a book on the two parts. The first part is a washing and anointing part. I'm just going through why read. I did not experience this myself. But it's a washing and anointing after which

they give you a special set of underwear with Masonic markings all over it. And they say you have to wear this underwear for the rest of your life. and then they take you through the ritual part of the endowments

it's a group ritual it's a dramatization of Adam and Eve but the Mormon interpretation of it and through which everyone's taken different vows and given Masonic handshakes and well then because

Joseph Smith ripped off free masonry and they're all wearing this special underwear and uh and uh it's a pretty and uh if you ever go to a a l-d-s service and you see you can see underneath uh it has a very distinct uh neckline to it that you can see uh through uh shirts and so i have a problem then i you know on modeling days i stopped wearing underwear, you know, because it takes a while for the red marks, the elastic band marks, to go away. Right. I don't want that to distract people.

So I go commando when I would go, you know, when I know I was going to go model for a class or something. And that just led them just going to commando all the time. So I'd be in trouble. I wouldn't want to wear the underwear. Right. Right. And it's a very stylized underwear

that you can only buy through certain manufacturers and stuff. And it's just insane. I had this discussion. I had Carrie Cott on the podcast about a year ago, and I brought that up to her, and she's like, well, I'm my underwear and no fun to wear. And it's just insane to think that there is a religious group that forces you wear certain type of underwear. Well, going back to the Christianity and nudism, when you think about it, Jesus was naked on the cross. That was the Roman tradition. That they made him naked when they were crucified as part of the humiliations or whatever. So Jesus was naked when he died for our sins.

When he rose from the grave, the Bible says he left the grave clothes in there. And one of the Mary's mistake mistook him for the gardener. Well, gardening was done new like I just said because you don't want to mess up your set of clothes. So he was naked when he died. he was naked when he came up. And for the first at least 400 years of the church, baptisms were done in the nude. Mm-hmm.

I think the Eastern Orthodox still do nude baptism since who did. Yeah. Think about that. Yeah. So, yeah, a lot's, that's a lot of reparation that gets started. and I've got plenty more to go. So yeah, I think we'll go on and leave it at that. So thank you, Dan, for coming on.

All right, so wait for the next part of our National Nude Day festivity. So I got another wonderful guest with me today. Go ahead and introduce yourself, please. Hello, my name is Ashley Papavaro. I am a naturist in Arizona and also an admin for the group No Tan Lines on Facebook. And No Tan Lines is one of the groups I approached for this project. And thank you so much for doing this. It is my pleasure. Thank you.

Yeah. So how did you get started in the Naturist lifestyle? Back in 2018, I was living and working at Bullfrog Marina at Lake Powell in Utah. And I was kind of seeing a park ranger police officer at the time who informed me that there were no laws against nudity at the lake or any national federal land, basically. And so that kind of ruined me. I didn't realize what it would do at the time, but a few weeks after I learned that information, I went out to a Fourth of July party

and got invited to a boat to go watch fireworks and then told them, perfect. I wasn't planning to be on the lake, but if we are going on the boat, do you mind if I skinny dip if we're going to do that? And so when the time came after the fire, We went to a little cave, or not a cave, we went to a canyon across the way, and I stripped off my clothes and they were like, oh shit, you were serious. And I'm like, yeah, I was very serious. And so out of the 11 people on the boat, happy to report that eight of them ended up getting naked with me. So there was only three people left on the boat that were not nude in this excursion that kind of just happened about. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I just started with my local club. That was 20 years ago. I was in my late 20s. I'm now my late 40s and still active with the club. I'm actually a board member with the club, the Heartland Atress Club in Kansas City. Yeah. Cool. I haven't heard of them, but I'll definitely look into them. And if I wander that way, I'll let you know.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So our main activity is we do a monthly swim, except for July and December. July, we've got other activities going on. And then December, that's Christmas. Everyone's busy and everything. But yeah, we do have a few nudist places within driving distance of here. And the past few months, I've done a monthly nude yoga. class which is pretty which is pretty cool and uh oh that's um so that's my neck are you go are you the yoga teacher no or you just who's say okay no i just i just said yeah i wish i was a yoga teacher um and um funny yeah i'll go on fall suit as well so if don't mind you know it's 102 degrees outside. I'm standing in the shade, but it's still just damn hot. So I have neighbors. I'm in my backyard right now. It's like partially covered. My roommate was playing music inside, so I didn't want to have him disturb or interrupt or whatever. So I came outside and it is darn hot out here. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty warm here, but not 100 degrees warm. It's like 80s today.

I live in the Arizona desert So it's quite Warm where I'm right Yeah yeah It's certainly It's officially begun Yeah It certainly compared to

The Midwest Where I am And all that So But yeah Back to the new yoga Yeah It's one of our

Club regulars Host a monthly New Yoga class And I I'll check it out And It's The first time

I ever tried yoga to be completely honest with you. I still haven't done it yet. So you're a step ahead of me. Yeah. Yeah. How did you enjoy the class? Well, I'm a bit of shape. But yeah, I definitely feel that's every time I take the class and everything.

Can't do the very advanced stretches and everything. But you know, it's over when you do that corpse pose, you just fly flying your back, your eyes close. And she starts playing those meditation bells and everything. She does the sound bowls? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. I have done the sound bath, but never the whole yoga part with it.

But that sounds so fun. I would love to join something like that sometimes. Yeah. I'm pretty sure there are glasses in the. Arizona. I visit a place called Shangri-La Ranch, which certainly offers that on occasion, depending on if there's somebody that happens to be a yoga structure that's there for the weekend or something that wants to host a class for free. But yeah, there's definitely some opportunities that I just haven't taken advantage of yet. So one of these days, I will get to naked yoga.

Yeah. Excellent. And I guess there are companies that do naked yoga. classes online and online. Yeah, there's definitely some new meetings for sure I've heard of. Yeah. So my favorite activity is to do naked,

aside from yoga, swimming, sleeping is a big one. I don't blame you there. Yeah. And, yeah, out there are, There are a lot of activities out there that can be done naked. I probably shouldn't.

I probably wouldn't try driving naked on my part of the country, at least. It depends on where you are. Yeah, Kansas City area. You can get away. You know, the cool thing about being a man is a shirtless man isn't any sort of danger. So as far as someone can see in your vehicle. Right. You know.

But if a woman is topless, you know, you know, you might be able to see more than you expected depending on how low the windows are. Right. But yeah, there's definitely some certain, some different things that can come with, you know, being a guy or a girl, nude driving. Right. I've done it, but like in the forest. Okay. Yeah.

I know I'm not going to run into anybody. Right. Right. That's awesome. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, around the Kansas City area, I probably once tried driving naked. and certainly not in Arkansas.

Yeah. For my audience, nudism is illegal in Arkansas. That's a bummer. I will avoid Arkansas at all cost. Thank you for that heads up. But that's it. I know there are a few nature's places around Kansas, Missouri, and Oklahoma. But I've heard good things about.

Certainly. one of my favorite things to do nude is boating at lake powell i don't own a boat but whenever i get invited to go boating i will definitely be there um one of those little what is the word one of the requirements on you know as i get invited i'm like cool can i be nude will that offend anybody will everyone be like does that bother anybody and then you know kind of get the consensus and if it's a no will be uncomfortable then i just plain don't go because I will be uncomfortable if I have closed at this point, unfortunately. But one of the great things about Lake Powell, where I personally live or Glen Canyon National Recreation Area,

which is basically my backyard, is that on all national federal land, there are no laws against public nudity unless there are specific laws against public nudity. like from my understanding the Canaveral National Seashore, for example, is one that specifically says no nudity. But unless there is a specific law against nudity, there are no laws against nudity on our national public federal land, which I appreciate and I live in the middle of. So I take advantage of that as much as possible. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Good deal.

And I know you do a lot of nude photography, nude self-photography and everything. A lot of which I think is very tasteful. Thank you. Mm-hmm. That is my aim. I definitely try to represent females in social nudity or just natures women in general in the most healthy and respectful way that I know how to. So I have often been found photographing myself naked in nature among beautiful, beautiful mother nature, gorgeous backgrounds.

I just try to be a little tiny piece in the corner of I'm just enhancing the scene rather than being kind of the main focus of the photo. So it's certainly something that I strive for and something that I take pride in, kind of representing something that's kind of underrepresented in nudism. Yeah, you bring up a good point here. I can hear myself a little bit, but that women are very, very underrepresented in the nature as nudist as seen. And I have theories about that. Let's talk about them. I think the big one is the perception of guys like me,

no single guys coming to the clubs, expecting to see beautiful women there and trying to hit on them. And I get it from that perspective and everything. But if you're coming to a nudist camp, but there's sexual activity will get you banned as simple as that, you know? I prefer to stay at ANR Resorts, the AANR affiliated resorts, where sexual activity is strictly prohibited in the public, you know,

do whatever you want in your room, but don't keep it by the pool. There's families here, there are children here. There are definitely different types of resorts. I prefer to stay at the Anner Resorts where, you know, some sort of behavior is specifically not allowed for those reasons. And as an admin of a group of naked people, we have somewhere between 7 and 8,000 people now members from all across the world. And we have a quite low membership rate. I'd say we're stuck about 23% females versus about 77. percent men.

And I find that a lot of the times when a woman shares herself online, even if it's something like I do, just a little tiny piece of the picture, you know, where you're enhancing the beauty, the men who perceive it or the men who are the audience sometimes like to cross the line and, you know, for some reason think it's appropriate to comment on the way you look or comment on. on, you know, wishing they were there with you, which is so weird. Don't do that. That's so weird.

Or just choose to view your picture and then send you a friend request because don't you want to be friends with all of the random men who see you naked on the internet? Like, that's a hard pass. That's a no. That's weird. Start a conversation with somebody. You know, tell them that you like the landscape. like there's so many other ways to start a conversation with somebody and through personal experience and through being an admin of this group no tan lines we see plenty of people from all sides of the spectrum and we do in that group specifically request that people report other people crossing the line making them uncomfortable because what we're trying to create is a safe space for everyone to share whatever they want to as long as it's within the Facebook censorship standards.

And, you know, the community standards that they set. But yeah, we want people to feel comfortable. And when a woman decides to share herself and then 50 strange men comment, or not comment, comments are fine as long as they're not crossing the line. But when people just decide to reach out to you or send a private message, like, hi, I'm a naked person too. Like, cool, I don't care. That's why we're in the same group.

Like, don't make it weird. I don't know. The things that people choose to do when women share themselves on the internet definitely makes a lot of people step back and rethink their thoughts and second guess sharing. And again, that's why in Notan Line specifically, we strive to make it a comfortable space for everyone that wants to share. and anyone that does cross a line, we are constantly scanning comments, scanning, post, scanning, whatever we can to weed out the people that do not belong and the people that are not true naturist, not true nudist, not there for the right sort of motivation, not there for the right reasons. And we try to eliminate them as soon as possible because, again, we want to be a safe space where all of our members feel comfortable and feel, safe to share what they want to share without being hunted by the thirst people.

I don't know. Right. Right. Yeah. Some people cross the line immediately. Like say hello. Ask how someone's doing. Don't say, hi, I'm naked.

I like the way you look. It's weird, guys. It's fucking weird. It's weird. You can guess on this podcast. That's when. My apologies. But yeah, Hartland,

in particular, it is, it does skew mostly mail as well. You know, we do have a background check process that anyone who wants to come to one of our offense has to go through a background check. That's great. See that you're not

to make a crime. On a predator list or, yeah. Yeah. Excuse me. Someone that shouldn't be there. Someone with wrong intentions. Exactly. Is that everyone there for the

right intentions. And we also have rules in place that if someone makes you feel uncomfortable, you tell the board member immediately and we'll take care of it. And yeah, we are not an Annar Club, but as a, as a Harlan Nature's board, we are having that discussion right now. Should we be anner or should we reaffiliates with the Nature Society? Or things like that. Would, would Anna and the natureist society be along the same lines? I would feel like natureism is non-sexual, which is kind of how Anna is or along the same lines. You know, so when I think of not naturist or Anna, I think of lifestyle, which is like the whole other level.

So I don't know if there's something between those two extremes. But yeah, if I had, if you wanted to gain more membership or have more people interested, I would say proving yourself as a non-sexual safe space would be a good way to go about doing that and recruiting other people or finding other people that might be interested in a safe place to hang out naked. It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing to say to people. Yeah. Yeah, just, yeah, Alan Publix. Say, hey, Sonsa, you want to get naked? No.

No, I can't work this. It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. I am a proud naturist, and everyone knows me, knows that I am a naturist. It's within, like, the first three things that you learn about me. It's usually, like, my name that I'm a naked person, and I don't know what the third person. Maybe I like to sing karaoke. I work at this restaurant. I don't know.

There's, like, whatever the third thing. is, is my name that I'm naked and then, you know, whatever that sort of thing might be. Yeah. Yeah. So it's good to put it out there and let people know who you are from the start because there's a good chance if we go do something. I'm going to end up taking off my clothes at some point. So we should just clarify if that's going to make you uncomfortable or not from the beginning. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, we need a, yeah, I think the U.S. especially would be a much better place if there were more naked spaces that we can engage in non-sexual nudity and activities. Anyone's welcome and all that? You know, I wish the same. I feel out of the world and out of the things that I know just from joining the group that I'm in and, you know, knowing what I've learned. for some reason the United States has sexualized nudity and all of the movies and all of the shows and all of the things sexualize that when it used to be art in Roman, you know, in Roman times. And it used to be, it's not supposed to be sexual.

It's everyone has nipples. Yep. Who cares? Like it's not, they actually have a function on women. Like, it's not, it's not supposed to be sexualized. but it has been. And the rest of the world looks at social nudity or just nudity in general as a healthy function of life.

And they embrace it. And going to the topless beach or the nudist beach or raising your children as naked, kids is normal. And kids by nature want to be naked. Like no one wants to put on clothes. No one wants to wear a diaper. No one wants to wear underwear if they could not. So we're trained to wear clothes

or trained that nudity is taboo or wrong in some way, but it's really the most natural way that we can possibly be as humans. So we're born that way. Yeah, absolutely. We're all born naked. Yeah, it's our natural state being, and we need more places that we can, yeah, be naked. Exactly. Yeah.

So. So. So, uh, what advice would, you give a woman who is interested, well, specific to women, but it could apply to men to, what advice would you give to someone who's interested in this way of life? I think to anyone, men or women, not, the biggest thing is you are restricting yourself. It's more likely how you think people will see you, how you think people will perceive you, what do you think people are going to think about you.

That shouldn't matter. Social nudity or natureism is about enjoying being yourself. And once you're comfortable in your own skin, like, there's nothing that can stop you. So if you have the thought, if you have the idea that you might want to tie it sometime, just go do it. Like, if you're around actual nudists, no one is going to mind if you have an extra roll or two.

No one is worried about your body hair. Nudity and naturesm is about being comfortable in your own skin. Feeling the breeze in your hair, the wind on your skin. It's just about enjoying being natural and being free. So if you're thinking about it, just go do it. If you're uncomfortable, go make a little spot in your backyard, find some place where no one can see you, just like get outside and feel the sun on your skin. If you've never done it, don't do it for too long because, you know, you will sunburn for sure. There are parts that are more sensitive because you probably weren't a bathing suit your whole life.

But yeah, just feeling the sun on your skin and that breeze in your hair, all of your body hair is amazing. don't let people's thoughts about you or people's judgments about you or the way you think people are going to think about you stop you from living your best life like honestly and i feel like once you actually can do it there's nothing like you become unstoppable there's nothing that anyone can say that will ever bother you because you know in your soul like who you are like i don't care how what you're thinking about me what you see what you're judging me for like i know who i am and i love me 1,000 percent and that's like if it it's it's like gaining a self-confidence that you never knew was possible like i hope that you already love yourself i hope that you already know that you have

value but once you like see yourself with nothing to like make yourself up no dressing up no makeup no like once you can just be yourself and still love yourself like there is there's nothing else matters like whatever anyone thinks anyone says anyone i don't give a shit if you're looking at me if you have some negative thoughts about me like i love me and that's what matters and i feel like becoming a naked person and just like wholeheartedly loving yourself is is what has gotten me to that level. And I hope that other people, the women that I have spoken to that are in natureism agree.

And there is nothing else that you can do. Like, it doesn't matter. Say what you want to say. I know who I am and I love myself. I love me. All right. All right. And that's a, I think it's a great way to end this.

portion of our special so i want to thank you actually for coming on it is my pleasure thank you very much to have him and michael this is from true naked yoga.com is and also where you can download naked yoga classes they have a blog in keeping with the spirit of the holiday This is five ways to celebrate National Nude Day. So July 14 is National Nude Day. And while it may seem like one of those silly, meaningless holidays that often circulate the internets, it's actually a special day for people who partake in the practice of natureism.

The holiday is a celebration of the joy and freedom that many people experience from being nude. Natureism is defined as a lifestyle of practicing non-sexual social nudity in privates and in public. It is a movement that promotes body positivity and self-love.

One of the main tenets of natureism is the desexualization of nudity and a recognition of nudity as our most natural, normal state. National Nautism New Day is rumored to have vague origins in New Zealand in the 1970s, but amongst modern natures, it's a day that aims to spread the knowledge and positivity about the movement. Spending more time nude can lead to greater confidence, better self-image, and increased body positivity.

It allows you to become more acquainted, comfortable. and accepting of your body is actually as it is. Unfortunately, nudity remains taboo in most societies, which leads to a great deal of shame surrounding our own bodies.

But as many naked yoga practitioners can attest to spending more time nude can lead to greater confidence, better self-image, and increased body positivity. It allows you to become more acquainted, comfortable, and accepting of your body,

exactly as it is. You don't have to be a full-blown natureist to enjoy National Nudes Day. Although myself and everyone who's appeared on the episode so far is a full-blown natureist. And you certainly don't have to be naked around strangers if you're not comfortable with that. Instead, start by trying a few simple, non-threatening ways. to becoming more familiar with your naked body before you move on to any social nude activities. So here are great ways to celebrate National Nude Day and become more relaxed with nudity.

Number one, this being a naked yoga site, of course, they're going to suggest naked yoga. Naked yoga is an exceptionally liberating practice that combines all the benefits of yoga with all the benefits of naturesim. Because yoga encourages you to focus on your breath and the movements, it helps to release feelings of shame, awkwardness, and discomforts with nudity by encouraging you to focus on the present moment. Number two, similar to naked yoga is naked meditation.

Meditation is another way to cultivate mindfulness and doing it while nude allows you to fully face any feelings of shame or anxiety. You might be feeling head on. It's important to have a safe space to process these feelings on your journey to releasing them. Number three, cooking naked. Whipping up your favorite meal while in the nude is a lot of fun and because cooking is such an innocent and low-key activity, it makes being naked feel a lot less intimidating. Just be careful if you're working with hot liquids and oils and wear only an apron if needed. Number four is dancing naked. Dancing naked is so fun and freeing,

and while it might feel quite silly, laughing at yourself helps to take the edge off of the nudity. Try blasting your favorite song and getting down in your birthday suits before getting dressed in the morning for a great ray to start the day. And number five is Sunday. bathing naked. If you're lucky enough to have access to a private area outdoors, try soaking up some rays in your birthday suit for a healthy dose of vitamin D.

The sun will feel so amazing that you'll almost forget you're naked. Just make sure to wear sunscreen. And namaste. So, yeah, they also have another blog entry, so 10 things to do. naked at home. We can skip one's naked yoga, two, meditate naked, three cook naked. They've already been mentioned. So four is swim naked.

Swimming naked, also known as skinny dipping. It's a fun pastime that goes back centuries. And for good reasons, swimming naked feels great. It can be a great way to soothe muscles and increase your body mind connection. after stressful day. Number five on this list. Paint yourself naked. We're all looking for fun

grave outlets at home. This was written during pandemic times. So why not paint a nude self-portrait? It can be an awesome way to increase self-love and body positivity. No painting skills. That's okay.

Try taking some artsy nude photographs. with a digital camera. Number six is read naked. Reading is a great way to kill time at home, while also learning or being entertained and reading naked can take that to the next level. Try conning up with a cozy blanket

and a good book in the nude to freshen up your self-care routine. Number seven is sleep. naked believe or not sleeping naked is good for you it can help you regulate your body temperature fall asleep faster and feel less stressed overall if you're not used to sleeping naked try taking naked naps number eight the sunbathe number nine is clean naked cleaning can be a drag but you can make it more exciting by cleaning naked and it's a great way

to Movage your partner, if you have one, to help you out with the chores. And number 10 is dancing. So that's on there as well. All right. So on to the next thing. If you could please introduce yourself. My name is Kip Geino, and I wrote the book, The Art of Networking Naked, a bold guide for first-timers. All right.

seems highly appropriate for our discussion today because we are talking about getting naked. There you go. Yep. Yeah. So how did you start getting naked? Well, it was a funny thing. See, I've been a networker for many years. And one day I was thinking about how I would change networking make it different. And I wanted to make up some new rules.

So one of these things I started writing out, and I realized that if I went and changed it from a dynamic of a business environment to a nudist environment, it would change the whole dynamic of the conversation. So I started writing the book and everything else, and I realized I needed some research. So I went to a local nudist resort, maybe 45 minutes from me for the first time. And I got there on a Friday, and of course, there was nobody there but one person. So I was kind of dismayed because I wanted to talk to people and interview them. So I said, well, I see one person. I'm just going to go over and talk to them real quick and get some information. I ended up spending an hour and a half with them.

They told me to come back on a Saturday, which I interviewed 25 people out of about 100. Felt very relaxed, very comfortable. I didn't feel like anybody was judging me or anything else. And the people were really warm and friendly when I told them I was writing a book. So that's how I got into it. And since then, I've been on Instagram. I've been creating videos. I've been talking to a lot of people in the industry.

And it's just dynamics that you don't expect. And I think that's what's got me involved. That's why I wrote the book. Awesome. Awesome. So why are some of the insights you picked up from that first time? Yeah. Well, the first thing I picked up is that I was worried about how people would perceive me.

I'm 81 years old. You know, your body is in the best shape. And you figure you're going to be going against a bunch of younger people. What I found was the average age was like 50 plus. So that was a little bit of reassurance. The second thing is when I talked to them, they said to me, we don't care what you look like. We don't care about anything.

As long as you're nice and you're speaking with an open heart, that's all we care about. We don't like people to come in and lie or anything else. I said, well, I can do all of that. And one of the things in the book it covers is very unique is that I talk about dropping your armor. Your armor is your clothing, your glasses, your phone, your fancy watch, all that stuff.

And when you meet someone, and especially in the nudist environment, You're talking one-on-one. You're not hiding behind anything. And I think that's the essence of what the book is about is stop hiding, start being present, believe that you're okay, and you're allowed to be within that realm of people that you don't think you belong. All right. All right. So I assume we've gone back for further visits as well. As a matter of fact, I've got an event.

I've just finished. My book is coming out in Soft Cover. It's supposed to be here in two weeks. I've been invited to the largest nudist resort in Florida, McKissombe. And they want me to do an author book signing for four hours during their open house. So I'm going to be down there on the 11th, I think it is, of July, signing books for four hours. And talking to people about what I've learned in this type of industry, what people feel, how they think about you, what's good and bad that I've learned. and just, you know, challenge people a little bit to think differently about, you know, nudism itself, which I'm thinking differently.

Sure. Sure. I assume we're going to leave a copy of your book for, because one thing I do know about Psychicoseco, if they have a, they have one of a few nudist libraries in the United States. I assume we leave a copy of your book for them. Well, that's the goal. And I'm dealing right now with the head marketing person. I've also ended up joining the AANR, and I got friendly with the president, Linda Webb, and I've been championing her along to get reelected.

And we haven't had a chance to get the webinar yet, her and I can meet face-to-face, so to speak. But we've been in contact. She's wished me good luck on my signing and everything else. So I'm reaching out to the right people, and I'm making inroads in where they're listening to me. I've sent them all copies of my book. They love the book. So, you know, I'm just meeting people along the way. that I never thought of me before.

Really cool, really cool. So I myself have never been an inner member, mostly because I can't afford it. It was only $65 for the year. That's a lot for someone with not as good an income as I have in the other. Okay. And that is a discussion we are having in my club right now because the club is not an Anner club

but certain people want to push it towards that and I'm I'm frankly against the idea because that would force all of our members to join Anner if they aren't already and once again we already charge $40 for a year long membership

And I and there are people, you know, much like myself who are in that situation, they can't necessarily afford the ANR membership. So we're going to turn these people away just to appease one or two people just pushing this. Yep. Yeah, ridiculous. That makes no sense. And you have to weigh the plus and the minuses, you know. The other thing that's been going on is kind of weird.

I met a guy online and through my Instagram, he responded to one of my videos. and he's out of South Australia. And he runs a tour group that has new tours. And we start talking and send him a copy of my book. And he read it. He says, look, I have high expectations for this book before I read it. So you better live up to it. He writes me back.

He says, I got the chapter two and I'm already exceeded those expectations. I can't wait to finish the book. So then he sends me a book that I didn't know about. He just is a gift about black naturism in Africa and Australia. So he wants to collaborate on that a little bit because he does all kinds of tours. We're talking about Gen Z, how to get Gen Z involved more, because Gen Z thinks it's more about nudity. It's really not. It's about your personality and how you feel about yourself is what it's about.

So I've been doing some research on that and trying to work with him as well and come up with maybe a joint thing or whatever. I'm not sure at this point, but I've been doing the research anyway. Yeah, absolutely. That sounds great. And yeah, that's another demographic that's very underrepresented in the nature's community. It's the black African-American or African wherever you happen to be in the world. Exactly, exactly. And I'm doing some research, too, to give them some percentages of the number of people, the ages.

Because a lot of the Gen Zers, their thing is they think it's just for old people, that they won't fit in. And the reality is that tide is shifting. and it's becoming more younger people than ever before. I'll give you a great example. When I was at the place I was at, Sun Ridge up in Sterling, Connecticut, I was talking to this young couple. It was their first visit. The woman was very shy and withdrawn.

She said it took her husband four times to convince her to come. She finally came, and then, you know, she was covering herself up and everything. We talked for about 40 minutes. Finally, she released herself. She turned around. She was very conversive. And I said to her, I said, you know, she had four children. I said, what do your children think that you're here today?

So we told we're gambling at the casino. We didn't tell them we came here. So they hadn't got to the point where they were willing to share with their family that they're expecting, because they didn't know what they would expect when they got there. So they were waiting to see. And I asked her point blank, if you'd be back, she said they would come back again because I took the time to speak to her and calm her nerves down because that's what I like doing my business coach as well. And I was able to calm her down to the point where she felt more relaxed. wants to come back. So, and she was in, you know, probably her late 30s. All right. All right. So I was in my, uh, late 20s when I got started. I'm in my late 40s

now. So I, so I know for facts that, uh, yeah, young people can't get involved in natureism. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, no. And no one's going to think differently of you. And yes, you will see older people. But that's the beauty of it. choose. You're going to see people of all ages at this point. And once again, they don't care what you look like, just that you're having a good time and are comfortable and everything. But Gen Z's ears are the biggest fear is being judged. Right.

They don't like judgment. They don't like any of that. So when they have an older perspective, they feel like the generation is going to judge them because they may not feel in place or that they're younger. Whatever the case may be, that's the dynamic that's the dynamic. holding them back. And that's the next level of natureism as getting the younger people involved because we're not going to be around forever. That's true. That's so true. And probably the reason I do this podcast, too, but you also bring up women as well. And that's a, that's another sector that is way underrepresented, I think. And I personally don't know how,

we address that I would say yeah I have more women in leadership roles at the local level and all that but I was having this conversation earlier in the

earlier in the episode and we think a lot of it has the same reason that single guys know myself included would be ostracized from the community is that that that's a stereotype that's we're just going to be

hitting on all the women that are coming in like no that's not that that's uh just behave like you would in a polite society right but that you know if you if you look at the research Michael that I've done some of it I find that that's not the number one fear the number one fear is they fear about body shaming. They fear about being observed and, you know, maybe rejected. They also fear about the fact that somebody's going to take a picture. They don't know where that picture is going to go, even though we know that's not allowed, but there's sometimes people, you know, they got these glasses with cameras and stuff.

And that's a big fear. And the other thing is that, you know, self-esteem is a big issue. They don't feel that good about themselves. So they figure everybody else is thinking like them negative. And they're being judged when they're really not being judged. I think that's what holds a lot of women back. I did a thing today. I was doing some research, and it's kind of funny we brought this up.

I said to him, I said, you know, what is the difference with a woman that goes to a to apless beach, undresses in a locker room, or is in a sauna versus going to a nudist resort? And the only difference is that women feel more compelled to wear that sheer garment or their panties because they think that's a protective zone from everything else. and they feel like they're more acceptable because they're not fully nude. And so somebody can judge them. They feel like somehow it's a psychological thing, but they're already creating objections before the objections happen.

And that's how their mind is thinking is that, oh, this is going to happen, this going to happen. And when they get there, it doesn't happen. They go like, wait a minute, I didn't expect this. And all of a sudden they start to realize that all that worry and fret and everything else didn't matter. But they got to get there to understand this. They can't do it on the sidelines. They have to be involved. I think that's the next level.

It's how to get them involved. And it's about self-esteem. It's about feeling good about your body, not worrying about what people think. You know, my role in life is I tell people as a coach. You know, I don't care what you think about me. It's what I think about me that's important because that's the only thing that drives me forward every day. You can dislike the way I look, my hair, my thing. I don't care.

It's how I feel about me inside. And that's what I'm going to project to you. Is that honest individual, not ever what, whatever you think. that sounds bad rights to me yeah so so yeah we just need to do a better we i think the two go hand in hand yeah actually so uh but uh yeah well we need to find a way to uh get women to think a differently about self-esteem and everything i'm certainly not the right person to try to do that Well, you can have a part in it, though. I mean, it's about education.

You're in the education field, so you can educate these women to what their fears are and relieve them before they actual face them. And that can bring that tension down and get more people involved because you've already set the precursor to what they can expect. Right now, they don't know. They just know they're going to walk into a group of strangers, and all of a sudden, am I being judged or not? You know, it's just weird that, you know,

one of the videos I just did was, are you more afraid of being naked in front of strangers or being judged by strangers? And I'm getting in some commentary on that. And people say, well, I'm afraid to being judged. And so far, that's been a two to one answer because everybody thinks that you're just looking at them and you don't want them there.

And that's not the case. You know? So I think education from your standpoint, from people like myself and others, can build that momentum a little bit greater than it is right now. and people start to relax a little bit and feel, maybe it's not so bad, maybe I'd give it a try.

Now, that's not discounting a bad experience the first time either. I mean, you know, that could happen as well, but we can't control that. Exactly. Well, we can control it by making sure that there is protected as possible. Yeah. From having that bad experience, I'll use my club as an example again,

And we have a hard and fast rule, no sexual activity. If you get one sexual related complaints, that person's gone. Exactly. Yeah. And it's not exclusive to women. You know, men can feel that way, too. Sure, sure. Yeah, I managed to get someone bands from the club because they tried to approach me in an uncomfortable way.

Okay. And it was a guy. Good for you. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah. And, yeah, that's, yeah. that sort of behavior is uncalled for, you know.

Well, we have a nudist resort in Rhode Island close to me. It's about 50 minutes away. And before you can check in, especially for your single male, you must go through a background check criminal. And I forget what the other part is. They want to make sure that you're not going to be a problem when you check in. We have a similar rule. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a good thing, you know, because you never know. I mean, there's all kinds of weird people out there today and they get off on stupid things. and it can ruin your membership. It can make people fearful. They don't want to come anymore. It's just, it's too evolving. I can't deal with it myself. Right.

Right. Now, there's a time and place where that sort of activity. Yeah. Yeah, in front, potentially in front of, it depends on the, if kids are involved too. If kids are involved, absolutely not. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Absolutely not. And even if there are no kids, still, no, not unless you're one of those swinger groups. That's not my thing. No. It shouldn't be. I mean, you know, and the club has to have, they have to protect their membership, too. That's part of where you're there.

You're supposed to be providing a safe environment for people to express themselves. Feel excitement, feel friendship, build bonds, but yet feel like they're not in danger because your rules don't substantially protect them. And when you start throwing people out, that gives the message. that we're here to take care of you. We're not just going to let things happen. So I think that's a good point you made, that you have those rules.

And I think that membership should know that. Now, in your club, do you have a, what I'm going to call a first-time visitors packet? So first-time visitors, I think we send them an introductory email. I'm not involved with the membership side of things at all. But I'm involved. My primary contribution is trying to try. trying to work on at the education and outreach sort of thing.

But I think we do have a first time. Mercer packet of some sort. We do offer a brief tour of the facility that we rinse. Okay, everybody does that. What I'm looking at is something where you have that it shows you from the time you arrive at the facility, walks you through all the rules, regulations, all the services that you provide. So they don't feel like they're just being thrown in.

A lot of places you go, thanks for your fee. There you go. Have a good time. Right. And you don't know nothing. You don't know what to do. You don't know the etiquette. And people are afraid they stand there and they know, what do I do next? With this little walkthrough, it lays out everything. And a lot of clubs don't have that because I don't want to take the time to do it.

I develop one for a friend. And it's really pretty intense. It's almost like somebody's holding your hand walking through the resort. And it talks all about the rules and things you should do, things not to do, the things to expect, things to enjoy. and what happens is you feel like you've been there for 10 years, but you just walked in the site for the first time. And I think that's going to change membership as well because people feel more comfortable to join now

because they realize you're trying to help them understand. All right. I encourage you to put one of those together for either that or whoever's on the marketing team to do that. Yeah, yeah. Really simple. Yeah, in fact, we have our next event happening tomorrow nights as I'm recording this.

I will bring it up to the rest of the board members who show up. Yeah, just go on chat, GPT, and it'll knock it out in a heartbeat. Just tell it what you want. You don't have to do nothing. And then to revise it until it has everything you want. You can personalize it, do everything. And I think this is something that most clubs need to understand that you're in the education business. No matter how pretty your place looks,

how many five stars you got until somebody arrives and they know that they can feel secure or not judge, they're not walking in the gate. they're not and how many people come there and it's clothing optional and they don't move forward they usually say after 10 15 minutes if somebody comes to clothing optional they'll join in and take their clothes off that's not always the case i'll give you an example when we go to this florida thing my wife's going to go because it's closing optional she's not into this she'll be doing her stuff down by the beach where you don't have to worry about you know it's clothing optional. But for other people that come, they should know that you have these opportunities

and what it means to them. They're not being pushed. They're not being rushed. You take your time. You walk around. You meet other people. Then when you feel that moment and you feel like I can blend in, then you will join them. But they need to know the steps because right now they don't know the steps. They don't even know how to start a conversation with somebody. You know, that's one of the things I've got in my book is how to start a conversation with somebody, how to remember names. You know, how to leave a group when you've been talking to them for a while? How do you exit in a good form without just walking away, right? All these different things, even etiquette 101 for people that never been to a camp before.

How do they know what to do? Right. Right. So these are things that your group could be fulfilling to increase your membership and get more people to maybe pull some of them Gen Zs in from your area, you know? I mean, that's where your future is, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. and yeah so yeah yeah it sounds like a couple of ideas i can bring bring up uh perfect i said and

yeah i'll go ahead and end it's uh tell us tell us about your book uh where can people find your book yep it's right now it's an ebook right now it's on amazon uh barns and noble and google play Google Books, and Google Books has a two chapter of preview where the other two don't. Unfortunately, Amazon won't let me put my book up because it's got social nudity in it, which is driving me crazy because it's only from the waist up. But we're trying to get it on other sites. Meanwhile, I'm going to have my website is almost finished, and I'll sell my soft cover through the website.

All right. I've got a distributed out of California that just ordered 500 copies. they're going to distribute all through California through four different bookstores. Excellent. Yeah, that's weird to me that Amazon isn't allowing you to sell on their platform. Considering they sell nudist nature's books on that platform. Right in the front, too.

It says it's social nudity to match the chapter, and it's for adults only. So there's no discretion where it's inappropriate. But when they try to upload it, the key word is that they wouldn't go for it. And I didn't want to get blacklist. So we stopped. So I'm getting a new publishing company, and they say they're going to try a different way

and see if we can get it up that way because I'd like to have people see it. I don't know. Here's the cover. You can see it? Yeah, your camera's off, so I can't see anything. Oh, my camera's off. Yeah, it's been off this whole time. Oh, okay.

I don't know why it's off. It should be on. Hang on. Yeah, I don't know why either. Oh, there. Oh, you had it for a sec. All right. You see it now?

Yeah, the, yeah, it's, yeah, it's. It's, yeah, it should be, it should be fine, but I don't know, I don't know what's going on there. I don't either. I don't get it, but, you know, I can't argue with Amazon. So, you know, so if I, if I sell it on my website, then, you know, that'll be a happy thing to do. But it'll be ready shortly. And I'll notify you when it's live and then you can do it, you know, pass it on or whatever. Oh, absolutely.

Most people that read it, that I've already read it, have got a lot out of it. I'll give you another example. the lady that's in Florida that read it that's invited me to do the book signing. I said to her, I said, after you read the chapter, the book, what was the thing that touched you the most? And she says, well, I enjoyed the chapter on introverts. I said, really? She said, I was a stay-at-home nudist for a year and a half.

I was afraid to go out of the community. And she said, after reading that, I realized that it was, you were talking about me, even though I'm out there now because I work for the resort. She says, I never thought of myself as being that. that open until I actually tried it. But it held me back for a year and a half, that thought process that I was an introvert. I couldn't meet people. I couldn't talk to people.

I was shy. What was it going to do? And she said that chapter helped her a lot. So I'm happy with that. Is it proved it's worth to me? Right. Right. You're an introvert, you said?

Yes. Yeah. I'm an introvert as well. So, yeah. Well, you know, there's good things and bad things. You know, an introvert is a better listener than an extrovert. I'm an extrovert, right? And you're only good for relationships if you feel safe.

Then you'll engage. Right. So if somebody makes you feel safe, you become pliable. You can just integrate and you're happy. But until then, you're like, well. I would agree with that, yeah. So it's a good thing. You've all got our strengths and weaknesses.

And introverts got more strengths than I got and vice versa. So enjoy what you have. You know, I'm ADHD. That's my superpower. I'm on the spectrum as well since you mentioned that. Yeah, yeah. And it's nothing to feel bad about it. It's kind of a cool thing.

You know, I feel like I think got something nobody else's got. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things about this podcast is it allows me to, it's made a safe venue to explore. Yeah. Topics like what we're talking about. Exactly.

Yeah. And so on and so forth. You don't feel like you've got to hold it in. Oh, heck no. Yeah. Yeah. And I, appreciate the fact you're doing this because it not only helps someone like me see more about

the world, but it also gives you the chance to come out of your shell a little bit. And every day you chip away at that little by little until pretty soon you blossom. You know, so I think it's a good thing that someone like yourself can do this and not be apprehensive or nervous about it because you realize that nothing's going to happen to you. You're just enjoying yourself, right? Yeah. You know, what's all about it's. You're learning stuff.

Yeah, learning stuff. learn yourself and hopefully people who are listening are learning the same stuff. Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, that's the goal, right? Yeah. You're not falling on deaf ears, I hope. No pun intended. That's a good one.

That's good one. All right. Anything else you want to ask me? That's going to be it for the interview portion. So I want to thank you for coming on. All right. I appreciate you having me, Michael. I really do. Mm-hmm.

And like I said, just keep doing what you're doing. That's all. And if you talk to your group and they, you know, they want some advice, just email me and I can give you some advice as well. All right. Great. All right. Well, thank you again, my friend. And you have yourself a great weekend.

Yeah, you too. All right. So this will have to do it for this edition of the podcast. Thank you to Dan, Ashley, and Kip for your participation. I hope others will come on in the future. I'd love to talk more about this subject. And we'll close with some words of wisdom from non-natured's Jason Kelsey. Get naked.

We're all going to get naked now. It's not weird. You're making it weird by not getting naked. Now what are you trying to hide? Just be naked. And that will wrap up this National Nudesday edition of this podcast I'm called for. which is also produced and edited by myself Mike Chernivsky. We have a special music for this episode.

Creatsuno.com, sunno.com. And also some music we found at Pixabay.com, P-I-X-B-A-B-A-Y.com. Please say, for those who are textile-inclined, we do sell merch at cafepress.com slash uncalled for pod. Please feel free to explore that and buy some. And thank you so much for our listen.

We will talk to you next time.