This Podcast Is... Uncalled For - Thoughts on Climate Change and Green Energy (with Sunflower Brew Revisited - Zack Pistora)

Episode Date: January 9, 2026

Conservatives clearly have it out for efforts to fix climate change and transitioning to green energy (think wind and solar).  Mike reads a few articles on the subject, then revisits a Sunflower Brew episode on environmental issues.  (This in response to Google recently and intentionally taking down the Blogspot post on this specific episode - and only this specific episode.)

Check the mic will go live stories told their eyes and dive Topics fresh with every spin you won't guess what's coming in Every week a new surprise minds away never lives conversations bold and free just press play And welcome everyone to this podcast is uncalled for and normally we try to keep things entertaining and everything but today is not one of those days at least I don't think I'll try my best to keep it's entertaining it's a very serious topic today's thoughts episode because we are going to be talking about climate change and green energy and we will be recycling so I'm

the Sunflower Brew here and I'll talk about that in a second as well. So I'm recording this July 4, 2025, so happy Independence Day to my fellow Americans, but not a good day for

America because that son of a bitch just passed his big, beautiful, beautiful bill that that is anything but beautiful.

All right. It screws over middle class and working class taxpayers. Severely restricts Medicaid spending

that's spending for low-income Americans and by the way in Kansas is already fucked up because it's already privatized under can care. And of course what we're

going to be talking about today and it is doing away with energy tax credits that Biden had put in through the Inflation Reduction Act which created tons of green jobs green energy jobs a lot of them in states like mine in Kansas where we're already producing tons of wind energy here and and And on the Soto, about halfway between the Metro and Lawrence, they're building the past side renewable battery plant. So green technology is very much on the way up, and these sons of bitches want to kill it.

And I would argue they'll wind up killing the rest of us as a result. Why? Well, there are plenty of reasons why. But my favorite excuse from them is Donnie's excuse. Well, they say, the noise from the windmills causes cancer. So before we recycle sunflower brunitone and tell you why I'm doing that, I'm going to read some articles for you. So we start with Politico, headline, Conservatives say Trump.

won their mega bill votes by promising crackdown on renewable energy credits. Credits for this article goes to Kelsey Tamarino and Josh Sagle. And it reads something like this. And of course, I'll interject when appropriate. So Howard Line House Conservatives said Donnie assured them his administration would take action to constrict wind. solar projects that qualify for Inflation Reduction Act tax credits a pledge that ultimately persuaded them to back the party's mega bill. We believe the administration is aligned with us in terminating the green new scam subsidies. We

believe we're going to get 90% perfect, we believe we're going to get 90 plus percent off future projects terminated, said Representative Chip Roy R. Texas and member of the House Freedom Caucus after the mega bill passed on Thursday. And we talked to lawmakers in the administration. We believe that's true. Okay. Green energy is not a scam. All right. You know what is a scam? Throwing bad tax dollars. towards fossil fuels, especially coal. It's beautiful, clean coal. Okay, stop with that shit, okay?

Nothing clean about coal. All right. Anyone that says clean coal, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Or, take the coal and they clean it. No, that's not how it works at all. Coal is actually very, very dirty. And very, very labor-intensive.

In fact, miners die from... mining that shit and and uh and uh honestly calls on the way out all right uh coal plants are closing all over the place and good luck to try and find new miners to uh mine uh this crap so uh so that that needs to go away all right solar and wind those are those have proven to be good energy efficiency, clean technologies. Are they perfect? No, but nothing is, unfortunately. But to say that it's a scam, fuck you, Mr. Roy. That's what I'm going to say about that.

It ain't a scam. And as for Freedom Caucus, you know what these guys used to call themselves tea baggers. And they protested, uh, they started protesting very early in Obama's presidency. I don't, they

say it was about, uh, it was about taxes and everything. No, in, in reality it was about, uh, they couldn't handle the fact that a person of color was in the White House. Or to quote that, uh, campaign call from

the Obama campaign quote we ain't phone for no fucking N-word all right so let's uh let's continue reading the article so just want to get those out of the way so roy added executive action would help ameliorate the damage added by the senate and the eleventh adder on the renewable energy tax credits uh what damage which the Senate tried to do away with increasing taxes on green energy, which would have effectively killed it in this country. So fuck you there too. House Republicans passed their domestic policy mega bill by a 218 to 214 vote on Thursday.

After nearly 24 hours of debate and discord, and that's six on Dini's desk, for his signature. But before it can pass, House Conservatives pounced on the Senate versions of the reconciliation bill, which passed the Upper Chamber earlier. This week,

it included compromise language, including the face-outs of incentives for solar and wind generation projects under the Democrats' 2020 Climate Law. That compromise was crafted in parts by Senators Lisa Murkowski, of Alaska and

John Curtis of Utah, both Republicans. The Senate language gave projects one year to begin construction to claim current tax credits while projects that started later would need to be placed into service by

2027. Okay. At least that's reasonable in, you know, because we already have projects underway. All right. underway. So, yeah, if they can get them up

in a couple of years, then great. Don't punish them. That marked a shift from the language in an earlier version of the bill passed by the House, HR 1-19, supported by conservative hardliners

that would only provide 60 days for projects to begin construction. Fuck you, very much. That's unrealistic. Conservatives also oppose the Safe Harbor Clause, allowing projects to qualify for the credits

if they begin construction by incurring 5% of the total cost of the work. I probably spent about six hours yesterday with some lawmakers in the administration about what they can do, frankly, to reverse the gutting of the gutting.

Fuck you very much, Mr. Roy. In other words, the Murkowski language that got put in there that would put that in construction language the year that we thought was not particularly helpful or good policy to achieve what we and the president wants to achieve I think that there's going to be some things there that they're going to be able to

do. Boy, do I want to strangle this guy. I'm not suggesting that you do, but that's how I'm feeling. Moving on. So, Representative Ralph Norman, Republican, South Carolina, another member of the T-Bag caucus, echoed on CNBC earlier Tuesday morning that Donnie is going to use his powers as chief executives to make sure the companies that apply for solar credits, for example, are telling what they say they were going. They say when they, they say they started, construction and Norman says

Donnie gave assurances that changes were going to be made particularly with getting permits, although he did not provide further details because they have none. And while the president can't remove the subsidies,

Donnie's pledge on enforcement of the change helped win support from conservatives. They wanted to put when construction began as when the time frame would extend from like the wind and the solar we wanted a date of service which means they can't take a backhoe out there and dig a trench and say

that's construction so things like that the president is going to enforce congratulations your property values went down and they're these big and it causes big bird cemeteries and they say the noise the wind, the noise from the windmills

that causes cancer that's what we're dealing with conservatives also flooded the range of other potential administrative actions Thursday including fast-tracking permitting pursuing tariffs

and issuing memoranda he can put tariffs on stuff that comes out of China. Okay, don't give me starting on tariffs this episode at least. That's always an option,

I hope he exercises that option, says Representative Tim Burkett of Tennessee after the House votes. But an effort by the Donny administration to undermine the tax credits could also face its own pushback from

moderate Republicans who supported the last minute changes in the Senate. Today, the tea baggers have unfinished business, and we have unfinished businesses, Rep. Juan Sisko Mani, Republican Arizona, a moderate whose district is home to

a range of green energy projects. To Biden's credit, a lot of these projects, went to red states who have could use all the help they can get, and what better when we do it, then create these green projects. The issue is not over for either side,

and we're each going to do our best effort to make sure that our constituents get taken care of. I know I will, for sure, he said, adding that the face-out just needs to be responsible. There's nothing responsible about this, Jackass. So it needs to be done in a way that it's doable for our states and the companies in our districts. And spokespeople for the White House and Murkowski did not return a request for comments on Thursday. And Curtis of his declined comment.

So lots of fuck yous all around. Let's read another article. This is fun. So this one's Vox.com, Vox, written by Umer Irfan on July 2nd. Trump's plan to replace clean energy with fossil fuels has some major problems. Okay, so, and, well, when I read this, I was able to read it for free, but it doesn't look like it wanted me to do that anymore. I'll try my best.

So the first solar... Damn it. Okay, so it won't be reading this article, but that is the headline. Let's say if I have any luck with the Wall Street Post. Okay, enter your email. I'm not going to sign my email on the podcast because I don't want. Yeah, I'm going to sign in. And fun times.

fun time. Just trying to read some articles for you people. But yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. Climate change is real. It is really happening right now. It's getting hotter and hotter. All the fucking time.

It seems anymore. And, you know, we got to do something about it. Not just for me, but certainly for my nieces. and nephew and yeah I would okay yeah that's even better that I can read it off the

screen and not off my phone so posted yesterday so July 3rd beautiful call and ugly solar see these photos and decide Donnie likes to make an aesthetic

case for fossil fuels see how coal, oil, and gas projects compared to solar and wind. And the first photo is a field covered with wind turbines. I see a telephone

tower and mountains in the background and solar panels in the foreground. The caption says wind turbines and solar panels blankets, the landscape near Palm Springs, California.

all right so this we know where that photo was taken and this is this article is run by Anusha Matur Apologies So Donnie's plan for the future of American Energy don't include

wind and solar One argument he has tried it out lately They're ugly as hell Which uh Which goes hand in hand with The noise from the windmills causes cancer. Donnie has said he wants to meet

growing U.S. energy demands using nuclear. Okay, we got a whole discussion on the safety of nuclear. Oil, gas, and especially coal. I got clean, beautiful coal. He told Fox Noinche

Maria Bacaromo this week. I don't want windmills destroy our place. I don't want those Some of the things, they go for miles and they cover half of a mountain that are ugly as hell. And they say the wind, the noise with the windmills cause this cancer. This aesthetic objection to renewable energy is something of a long-riding critique from Donnie. In the past, he's called wind farms unsightly and garbage. While referring to wind turbines themselves as big ugly suckers that are rusting and riding,

and the whole noise causes cancer nonsense. His Aberdeen-shear golf course unsuccessfully sued to block a wind project off the coast of Scotland on the grounds that it would spoil the view. And a lot of folks on Red have said that's his main objection. and they got pissed off at the Scots for putting them in. But to be sure, it's not just Donny who considers renewables on Siley. Solar and wind farms have an enormous visible footprint, requiring significantly more land than nuclear, natural gas, or coal

to produce the same amounts of energy. They also run the risk of sustaining damage from particularly fierce natural disasters like hurricanes and tornadoes. Plenty of projects in the U.S. have faced opposition from people concerned. There would be an eyesore, hurting property values and tourism. The federal agencies that oversee permitting are obligated to conduct visual impact assessments and consider local stakeholders'

feedback. But Donnie's particular formulation raises the question, which energy sources are least offensive to the eye? Then we see two competing photos. The first is a wind turbines lay

topple in the aftermath of tornadoes near Prescott, Iowa. you can see a couple of cherubines just crumpled over onto the fields that they're on so definitely going that's going to say zero damage because clearly there is damage but it looks fairly easy to clean up right next to it is a photo of a rusted coal shoot Coal travels on Beltline at the Iron Synergy Mine in Kirby, Pennsylvania. And it's rusted and ugly as hell. And then, oh, there's a third photo.

This is a solar array at work at Brookhaven, Calabro, airports in Shirley, New York. It's just a bunch of solar panels. yards away from a runway since we know it's an airport. All right. So continue with the article. So what surprises some energy experts is not the presence to disdain for renewables,

but his argument that fossil fuels are somehow more beautiful. This jack has probably never pumps gas because there's nothing that beautiful about pump gas or again oil changes or pretty much anything to do with cars anymore. Everyone has their own view of what's beautiful and what's not, but I have a hard time understanding how people can

think that solar panels are such a desecration of the land while mountaintop mining or drilling for natural gas and crude oil is not, says Severin Bornstein, faculty director of the

University of California at Berkeley's School of Business Energy Institute. And we see another photo. Looks like a housing development that's gone up with a bunch of oil rigs.

Popjacks sit in the middle of a residential neighborhood in Midland, Texas. Some experts spoke with the Washington Post, noted that much of the visual impact of renewables

is localized at a single sites, whereas fossil fuel production involves multiple sites with potential for multiple eyesores, like the proposed Keystone XL pipeline, if that thing had been built. Fortunately, it wasn't, but had it been built, you'd have a metal pipe that is prone to leaks that need to be cleaned up, and could potentially contaminate farmland and even more devastatingly groundwater. So it's not just the coal fire power plants that's going to be in my local area with the baked smokestacks. As Stephen Jarvis and Assistant Professor of a Firemill Economics at the London School of Economics. it's all the upstrain supply chain

thinking about the railway tracks that are bringing coal to that area all the way to the huge mine that's probably affecting a large part of the natural landscape as well and we see yet another so we have another photo oil drill pipe casings set at a coal gate energy LLC sites in Reeves County, Texas. And they kind of look like giant drill bits is what the look like. And then yeah, we see another photo. This is oil holding containers, which we have plenty of those around here.

two at certain sites with pipes going in between it looks like and a bunch of fuel and I see some development in the background as well but this is a crude oil tank farm

in Midland Texas there's also the visual aspect of fossil fuel emissions conventional fuels have from an aesthetic point of view an enormous impact on not only climate change but visibility impairments

everywhere it says Martin Pasquiletti a geography professor at Arizona State and he has written extensively about the

visual impacts of renewable energy landscapes with the pollution that's coal-burning power plants, refineries, and oil put out? I think there's no comparison. Experts have found that people who oppose renewables on aesthetic grounds tend not to have lived near fossil fuel sources. And just because the community is pushing back against renewable projects

doesn't mean residents would prefer nuclear plants, a mine, or a coal fire. power station in their neighborhood. This is a good type of nimbie. If you look at research on pretty much any energy technology, it's pretty rare that people are thrilled

about having this big piece of industrial infrastructure in their backyard, says Jarvis. And now we see a photo the crescent dunes solar energy project in the desert of Nevada. So ain't

no farming happening then. in the middle of the desert. But it is pretty cool. They have all these panels in a circle and there's a tower in the middle of all that. But from a policy perspective, the energy has to be generated

somewhere. True. Everything we do is going to have a visual impact. Most of what we do is going to have a noise impact. Although solar panels are probably the least impactful in that area. and some of the things we do are going to have a health impact as Bourne scene. None of this stuff is going to be entirely free from these spillovers,

and we have to make a choice. A burgeoning field within design and architecture is devoted to making renewable energy more aesthetically pleasing. And we have another. The eliminated airway gateway gateway. greets visitors at El Paso International Airport and they look like a fancy wind turbines. So that's pretty cool. So some projects such as bladeless wind turbines and hummingbird inspired blades use sleek designs to mitigate concerns about noise and visual distraction. Others like the Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation's DNA shape.

turbines and El Paso International Illustrated illustration also serve an artistic purpose. Okay, we can take a time out here and yeah, conservatives don't care for art either. So that was a pain, that is painfully obvious when you consider what was

Herr Brownbeck's first act when he became governor. He killed the Kansas Arts Commission. That is all. Continue with the article. Robert Sullivan, a former visual impact

assessments consultant for federal agencies, says the geometric design of solar and wind technology makes it more conducive to artistic innovation than fossil fuel sites. From a design sense,

they have some things going for them because they're sculptural says solvent a pretty large number of people actually like looking at wind turbines and solar facilities you'll never really

ever get people saying they look like they like looking at strip mines or open pit finds mines or refineries because if you're seeing a refinery you know it's visually chaotic.

And now we have a photo of river basin and plenty of wind turbines. The remnants of floodwaters can be seen beneath wind turbines in Palm Springs after tropical storm Hillary in

August of 2023. Pasquiletti points to Palm Springs, California, as an example of a 180-degree turnaround in public perception about the aesthetics of renewables. The community, once fiercely opposed to wind farms, now opts for new renewable projects over other energy sources. In Palm Springs, there were people who were suing the local jurisdictions because the wind turbines were obstructing their view. Nowadays, a generation later. They're promoting

wind turbines for tourism. People are getting married in the wind turbine fields. They have wind turbines in the logos and one of the most prestigious tennis tournaments in the country at Indian Wells. Pasqualeetti says a shift in aesthetic

perceptions of renewables as well underway in other places as well. The fact that you can see them as well is southern to be happy about because it means they don't have the same pollution

and all you have to do is get used to the facts that they're there and in fact it's a reminder that's what you've chosen is in all other ways the most advantageous

all right so that that's an interesting article now before I get to our last it's uh I do need to talk a little bit about uh transportation. Uh, so I'm not going to go into details of what's going on with my car, but, um,

as I say it is, uh, it's, uh, one thing after another and, uh, I'm just going to leave it at that. I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus or I think, but, um, but uh, it is, uh, I still would love to eventually. get it converted to electric. Maybe that would take care of a lot of the problems that I'm having. I don't know.

But that's it is what it is right now. But cars, you can make the arguments. Cars are a huge source of

pollution because they have to be powered by gas. Right? Unless it's an EV and there's some bitches undercutting EVs. And that is absolutely

disgusting. But that said EVs aren't perfect. I've heard horror stories about EVs exploding

because it got too hot. I've heard horror stories about the maintenance fees for EVs being the tens of thousands just for

battery. But we need but still we need to be heading in that direction towards EVs and in the meantime let's continue improving our public transit now now of course the two extensions for the Casey Street car the main street extension and the riverfront extension all the rail is in both those extensions will be open by this time next year the main street extension my

should be open by the time this episode comes out. But that's a greener form of transportation than cars. And I know that they have I know of they have two

routes currently in study. The East-West that we've talked about before as well as the North Rail. They just commissioned a study of for a 18th and Vine line. And the Mid-American Regional Council, M.A.C.

are looking at a green corridor. To their shame, it's mostly buses. From Village West all the way to Independence Square, to their shame, it's mostly buses. And that's not going to help with the whole green thing. I see. there needs to be a lot more rail to it well the only rail they included in this was a 12th street streetcar line with term and I at East Village remember that's from the

royal's discussion and gone past Barney house palpast past ball hall past quality hill down into the west bottoms and into KCK with a tournament at the existing transit stop at 7th and Minnesota so so and and I will take out the word that there there are plans for more metro wide options light rail commuter rail and all that I'm going to take another word for it and I'm going to to strongly advocate for those projects because we can't keep driving. I definitely want to see some far rail here in Johnson County, especially streetcar or light rail lines servicing Metcalf and Quivera.

Why Metcalf? Well, Metcalf is essentially the main streets of Ovalon Park. Why Quivera? Well, three reasons for Cuvera. Oak Park Mall, John Scan, Community College, KU Edwards, campus. Now, of course, of my discussions with transit people, and I would love to get more transit people on the prize guys. I said I would love to do a whole episode just on local transit and local transit projects.

They were talking about Gardner, which is way the hell out from here. So I'm so if they're thinking all the way connecting downtown to Gardner, I'm all for that. And now we get to recycled sunflower brew. Now we haven't done sunflower brew since 2012, 2013. And for the most part, our blog was largely unmolested until just a couple of months ago. when they took down one of the posts of one of our episodes at this episode had already been cycles out. I think because we were using pod bean and pod bean you have to cycle stuff out. Well, the one episode that got taken down was on climate change in the environment

and was a sit-down discussion with Zach Pistorra, who was at, at the time with the S. Sierra Club. I can only speculate that they took this down because it was on the environment. Well, there's what I'm going to do about it. I'm going to pause, and we're going to come back, and it's going to be our Sunflatabrew episode with Zec Pistorra. So you brought this on yourself, Google, and Donnie and everything. So, enjoy.

Bye. Welcome to Sunflower Brew. I'm your host, Zach Lua. Today we'll be discussing environmental issues with my guest, Zach Pistora. Did I get that correct? Yep. All right. The legislative coordinator for the Kansas chapter of the Sierra Club.

Welcome to the program. Thanks for having me, Zach. All right. Well, Sunflower Brew, as most people know, is about political discussion and beer. Today we're drinking Goose Islands Honkers Ale. And Mike's going to have a little bit more about the beer later on in the program. So while I pour us the beer, why don't we do the usual introductions? Tell us about Sierra Club of Kansas and your role as the legislative coordinator.

Sure. I've been with the Kansas Sierra Club chapter for two years now. Kind of my dream job. I was a political science grad. And coming into the Kansas Sierra Club, I told him I'd have to work harder than anyone else because this is my passion, environmental issues. And they gave me a good shot. We have about 4,500 members across the state. We're caring about preserving our ecosystem and enjoying our environment. And so we're the largest nationally, Sierra Club is the largest environmental organization.

We're the largest voice for your protection here in Kansas. All right. Real quick question. I know you're a K-State grad. I'm a K-State grad. What's the overrun around the football season? We got like 45 days until the start. Sure.

What are we going to do here? You know, last year was a sneak attack. I know. It was a good season. And I don't know if we're going to quite be there without our quarterback. But I'm optimistic. We got Sam's and we got the guy from the Juko transfer. So we'll have to see who gets started.

So I got faith in Coach Snyder. I think we'll do well. So I'm hoping for at least an eight-game winning season. But let's jump into some of our questions about environmental issues here in Kansas. And one of the biggest one is about these confined animal feeding operations, CAFOs, feed lots for a lot of people, whether that would be with cattle or hogs or we don't really raise a lot of poultry here in Kansas, but those are also some of the cafes. Those are broken down into groups by size by the EPA.

Now, on the Sierra Club Kansas Chapter website, that's one of your issues. These cafes are huge economic players in Kansas. What's your main concern with them? Right. These are big farms. You know, farming, agriculture's top industry for, for Kansas and and you know personally I grew up on a pig farm outside of Tonga Oxy and we you know it's important I think it's great for kind of our fabric of of who we

are as Kansas growing food as well as energy for for our state and beyond our big thing is as these cafes started becoming more popular in the 90s and it's just about how can we make the most bank for a buck with getting the most animals out there. Right. And so really, we kind of went away from the family farm model and went into these large-scale corporate farms instead of 300 pigs or 3,000 pigs. Now we have 16 farms in Kansas over 30,000. Really?

Yeah. That is a tremendous amount of hog and hog waste in one area. Right. And so that's our biggest concern is the waste, the health effects for the workers. There's been studies in Iowa showing that children that live near these cathoes have a higher risk of asthma. Just the sheer amount of waste is hard to control. You dump that on the land. That land might not be able to grow because it's too high levels of nitrogen, et cetera.

The workers in these cafs can get respiratory problems. And so we're just worried that maybe bigger isn't necessarily better with this. Right. And particularly in the news, there's a... a recent development in a virus that will impact the hog population here in the United States. So we'll see how that goes. And when you have 30,000 animals confined in a very small space, that's ripe for disease. Specifically on the waste and the handling of waste, what are some of the issues, is a water issue?

You mentioned basically the kind of toxicity on the land and the ability to use that land for something else. What's kind of the Sierra Club's main position on that? Do you want wastewater treatment? Do you want storage silos? How would you, you know, what are you looking at for them? Sure, sure. Well, a good example is out in Greeley County, almost on the Colorado border of Kansas. And seaboard farms, who I think's got an office pretty close to here in Kansas City.

They got an operation close to 80,000 hogs. And they're building it more. And one of the things we're concerned is they don't have enough water to fill their lagoons. So how are you supposed to dilute all this waste so that it either is maintained, stored correctly, or if we have a storm that it doesn't run off and contaminate any surrounding lands? And that's kind of an interesting concept or issue in and of itself because my understanding is, again, I grew up in Western Kansas. So they're basically taking water from the Ogalala aquifer to fill these lagoons. And so people who are down aquifer then don't have that ability to use that water for maybe growing crops.

So, you know, that's kind of an issue there in and of itself. You know, when you're using the water just to store waste. Right. So that's pretty interesting. We could talk for a long time on this issue. But I do have a couple. And, you know, I promise Mike, I would keep this right around the 20-minute mark so he doesn't, you know, his brain doesn't explode, removing all these pauses. Big issue for me, and I love this issue, is wind power in Kansas.

You know, as I drive back to Ellis, you know, you around the hill that route 30 miles outside of Slinah, and you see that giant wind farm. It's spectacular. For me, each one of those white, you know, towers is just a gigantic white middle finger to Middle East and OPEC and their production and all that stuff. So I love it. I think it actually enhances the view scape. So, but what's kind of the Sierra Club's position on that, Kansas chapter, on that? and, you know, what are some of your issues maybe with it, or are you, obviously you guys are pro, but what are some issues that you have with that?

Sure. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think energy independence, the more we can get our energy from Kansas, homegrown, the better. And so I absolutely agree that those windmills are a sign, a beacon of clean, renewable energy that can stay there for us and our children, et cetera. You know, there's a big debate about whether we should have windmills all over Kansas or just in certain parts. Right. And that's what we're talking about with worried about maybe the sensitivity of our environment and, you know, maybe concern to the prairie chicken, native species of birds for Kansas.

And so some people didn't want windmills in the Flint Hills per se. A study just came out from K-State Biology Department that said, said, these windmills don't really have a negative effect on the prairie chickens, which is good, because the more we can create our energy processes and energy systems to suit our natural environment to get clean energy, the better. And so that was a good source of news that we weren't damaging the greater prairie chicken and also different ways of burning practices that we can do around windmills would better. keep the environment too.

No, one of the biggest issues has always been, not just raptor strikes, but bird strikes in general, and the effect that it may have on migratory patterns along those lines. I mean, and, you know, we're placing a lot of these. I don't think any of them are near like Cheyenne Bottoms out in Barton County, but, you know,

you still have, you know, some of the migratory patterns are in these areas. I know in Ellis County, they were, they had a big issue with some of the people were really pushing against it, saying, you know, this is going to be an issue. You know, you hit bird, You kill birds, they drop to the ground.

That's going to increase predators. Those predators are then going to prey on sheep and other livestock. What's your kind of just general opinion on that? Well, I think the wind sight people go through extensive sighting protocols, and they do check for environmentally sensitive areas, and we're glad to help work with them on that. The birds, it's one of those things where we try to do the best we can. But then again, you know, getting our energy from somewhere else,

we've got to totally destroy the ground and getting, you know, coal, et cetera, then that's not good for the habitat either. So, you know, the wind systems usually have a less of a displacement of less than 1% of total area, which is great. And Kansas is certainly abundant in wind resource, second best state for wind potential. We just doubled our wind capacity just last year. And so Kansas is booming with this wind energy. and that was one of the biggest debates in the Kansas legislative session last year.

And I think our legislators did the right thing and say that the wind power should stay in Kansas. No, that leads into the issue, not just the siding of the towers. You know, one of the things you guys have in your, we need appropriate safeguards to ensure that wind farms do not cause undue harm to ecologically sensitive areas. I kind of want to follow up with the undue harm, but what about also the transmission lines? Because that's one of the major knocks against Kansas, is that we have the capacity to generate, but we don't have the capacity to transmit. I mean, I know they just completed the big power lines from, I think, the Sterling up into the Maraska. And then also, I think the transmission lines from basically Dodge City to Wichita and then into the Southwest Power Pool, maybe.

I think that's right. So we're getting close to that. What about the issue then that comes along with those environmental impacts of the transmission lines? because those are entirely different towers. Right, absolutely, and that's a great concern. We do need to make sure that those transmission lines aren't going through ecological-sensitive areas, too, are the best we can to avoid those. Again, the Flint Hills comes back into play.

And then property rights, you know, some property owners don't want the transmission line to come through their area, and that's obviously their right. So doing the best we can to inform people about what those, impacts would be and how to mitigate them doing the best we can. All right. Well, you mentioned earlier, coal. Coal isn't really huge in most of Kansas, but there is some, you know, a little bit in southeast Kansas.

Is it still the biggest, or not biggest energy city, but a large employer that it was? And what kind of coal mining do we do in Kansas? Is it kind of strip mining or is it what everybody kind of thinks of, you know, the 18th century, some, you know, Welsh guy living in Ohio, you know, black-faced and, you know, Zoolander type of thing, you know, something like that. Are it, is it something different? Could you kind of... Sure.

We do have, anyway, have had a history of coal mining down in southeast Kansas. You're right. As my understanding, a lot of that isn't economical anymore. Okay. So they pretty much shut it down. Probably 95% or greater of our coal comes from Wyoming. Okay. And on rail.

And that's when you turn on the lights in Kansas, that electricity that you're getting and almost nearly 70% of it's from coal power. Right. And all that's coming from Wyoming. So in Kansas, it's really more about the use of the coal. And that goes back to the sunflower plant down by Dodge City, and they were wanting to build that plant. What was kind of the Sierra Club's position on that?

Sure. We fought the Holcomb plant. Yes. We fought the Holcomb plant, kind of toothed and nail and said, hey, we're in the 21st century now. Let's get with 21st century energy. resources. And coal is just not going to cut it. It's unhealthy. Long term, it's just not economical because you have to clean up after it. So with that in mind, we opposed it. And then

Kansas, you know, cried out and said, hey, we don't want that power that's primarily going to Colorado to absorb the health effects in Kansas, eastern Kansas. And so we fought that. And And it sounds like it's not going to go through. So it's a win on our behalf. But that said, we're kind of dealing with the current issue on the board is West Star is asking for an increase in rates, $31 million, but a shift of $82 million on residents and small businesses of Kansas. They've asked for 18 rate increases since 2008. So what's their justification for these? And for those of listeners that don't know, they have to go through before the, it's the KCC, right?

Right. Kansas Corporation Commission. Kansas Corporation Commission. Ask for approval of the rate. The commission then has to make a determination and then allows the rate to increase. And they can either go up to the amount asked for by the utility or set a lower rate. Is that correct? Absolutely correct.

So what is Westar's justification for this rate increase? Primarily, they point out that they need to pay for their retrofits on their list. seen coal plant. Okay. And so we just last week presented testimony to the KCC saying, hey, we, the residents and small businesses especially shouldn't absorb the cost burden from bad energy choices that this private company makes. Right.

We told them that coal wasn't a good idea, and here we are paying for it later on. So what happens, you know, what happens if later on they decide to retrofit that coal plant into natural gas, which is now cheaper and which has actually been causing the decline of the coal industry. You know, are they going to pass those costs on to? It's interesting, the dynamic that these private companies can raise rates, but they still have a guaranteed rate of return for their shareholders. There's like eight and a half up to 10% guaranteed return. Oh, that's pretty nice.

So, yeah, it's nice for the investors, but they're in the business of making energy and selling it to us. And we want to reduce our energy, save money for our residents, but you could see how that's kind of contradictory to their business platform. Right. And they're essentially granted a monopoly, right? Is that kind of how it works? I mean, because the investment and the public policy that we want to have energy for all of our citizens, they kind of set aside, you know, antitrust issues and create a monopoly for, you know, Westar or Sunflower or all the, the couple. How many Kansas companies are there in like the energy production, utility type of? Right.

There's probably five or six main players and then a lot of small places have their own independent energy source. But yeah, it's like I couldn't get my electricity from anybody else. Right. There's no competition in the market. Right. I have to take it from there. All right. We can talk about this issue forever.

But I do want to hit a couple more fracking. We talked about natural gas and then oil. and that's big out in western Kansas, particularly natural gas, and then in the oil, the going back to older wells, the unproductive wells, and starting to use new technology. What's the Sierra Club's position on fracking, and is there a concern, and what is that concern? Sure, yeah, you got it. It's becoming a big player in Kansas with the Mississippi and Lyme formation down in south central Kansas, but they're starting to move north across the central Kansas. Basically, there's been a lot of problems with fracking in other states. Colorado, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Wyoming, and we just assume the precautionary principle better be safe than sorry.

I'd like to do a little bit more studying on it just a couple weeks ago that explosion in West Virginia killed some people. Yes. And then also documentary Gasland 2, I think, is premiering tomorrow on HBO. And Gasland One was where they lit the faucet on fire, right? Right. Yeah, I remember that one. So anyway, that's pretty scary stuff.

And for a state based a lot on our water supply for our food and for our people, we ought to be very concerned about it. Okay, so just to kind of describe fracking in general terms, it's basically where they drill, they either take an existing well that's no longer productive or they drill a new well. They drill vertically. They hit a certain point. And their argument is that they're below the shale and they're below the aquifers. And so there's no issue of seepage. And then they start to drill horizontally. And once they hit pockets, they inject proprietary material, which I think is interesting.

It's a good way to say it. Yeah. Into this well, which causes expansion of fissures. And then the natural gas leaks into the well and comes back up with the water, right, that they pump into the, or the proprietary solution, which is then cleansed. You mentioned water rights as well. How much water does it take to drill one of these wells? Sure.

It's 4 million gallons of water per fracant. Wow. Yeah. That's a lot of water. And then the other thing is they inject that much water down. It's water, sand, and these chemicals that they use and they pressurize it. And it's kind of like blowing into your straw, your drink, and then sending the fluid back up. Well, this micro explosion down there, they,

can only return approximately 60% of the fluid back to the surface. So a lot of those chemicals stay down there. We're worried about not only the chemicals, toxic chemicals, migrating into our water, but also methane, which can contaminate water, and that's how you get the gas on fire. Now, we just proposed my first bill introduction I've done in the legislature. Very nice. Congratulations. It's called the Fair and Responsible Actions to conserve Kansas, the Frack Act, and we have about 16 safeguards that we propose that would just make fracking a lot safer,

some of the best policies and practices on the books. So Kansas, if we do engage in fracking, which is a big business for Kansas, could be potentially big business. We want to be as safe and as sound as possible. I got two more questions. One kind of touches on that subject, and then the last one will be about your involvement in the Kansas legislature and how it progressed this year and kind of, you know, reading the tea leaves and see where we can go in the future.

So there's this general conflict between some conservative members of government and environmentalists, you know, the opposite end of its extremes. And the conservative members say that, you know, the EPA and the state agencies are really out there putting undue burdens on business and are really killing and hampering business. And the environmentalists, some environmentalists are, you know, on the opposite saying, you know, we need to look out for the brown-reclu spider and, you know, watch the habitat. So is there a balance there? Can government agencies and businesses and organizations like the Sierra Club really work together to not only just promote the responsible use of our natural resources but also engage in business?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that's one of the primary motivations for the Kansas Sierra Club is we want to enlighten people, but we also want to cooperate, work together. So we can form partnerships so people can engage in business, but make it to do. to where it suits our environment, so it's not polluting, and it's not harming the people. The government, I mean, if you want to view it as a rulemaker, which a lot of conservative legislators do, we agree with that. Obviously, somebody needs to be the referee, our businesses that pollute, or people that pollute.

But there's also this idea that government can be proactive, and that's kind of the more liberal point of government, and we agree with that, too. If the government can do more to help our environment and make the air and water and land safer and cleaner for people to enjoy, then by all means. What about the classic free market argument is that the government shouldn't be in there and that these polluters will be punished by the market and that will stop them from polluting. And then there's the kind of the Rachel Carlson, you know, if I can go out and I can dump 10 million pounds of, you know, pollutants straight into the water and it's going to save me $100 million. Where do you think I'm going to go with it?

And I only get fined $100,000. That's going in the water. So what are your thoughts on that? Right. Yeah. Just the profit or the bottom line isn't the bottom line, in my opinion. There's more to the picture. And if companies can get away with pollution, then they will.

Just the other week, a National Geographic photographer just got arrested in Kansas. Yeah, I saw that. for flying over a feed lot and it was arrested on a different case, but it brought up the point that Kansas has a rule that you can't take pictures inside of an animal facility like that. And while I'm curious... Technically, he wasn't inside an animal facility. Are you claiming the airspace above a feed lot is now restricted airspace?

Still to be determined on that, but yeah, it just brings up the point is what are the companies, why they have to be non-transparent? You know, farmers should be proud of business. energy providers in Kansas should be proud of providing energy to people. Let's try to do it in a way that people can be proud of as well. Gotcha. All right. So last question here, or second to last question.

Kansas, you know, the House went very conservative. You know, we had the election of Governor Brown back back in 2010. 2012 was kind of a transitional, more new, a whole bunch of new legislators came in. Kind of thoughts. And I know you have to work with them people, not them people, but you have to work with both. the House, representatives, and the senators. How did you see it go this year? Was there a lot of willingness to work?

Was there a lot of closed doors? How did it go for you? Sure. The House, the legislative session this year was very interesting. I, you know, think that conservatives, heavy conservatives, should be for conservation. It's in the name. They should be for the environment.

Less risky risk takers. Why not, you know, make our environment less risky by reducing pollution? our impact, et cetera. Now, we had to play a lot of defense this year, deciding whether or not we should have a goal for 20 percent renewable energy by 2020 was a big issue. The black-footed ferret causing problems, apparently. You know, that's a big issue. We can come to the table. We can talk about, obviously our governor is for wind power, which is great. They also introduced legislation that protect our water, but obviously there's much more that we can do. So we just keep working with them, whoever.

We're non-partisan, bipartisan. We work with everybody. So we'll keep on voicing our concern for the environment. Great. And that's one of my, I don't know, I can't remember if it's your guys's line or somebody's line, but it's, you know, being a conservationist isn't a bad thing. You know, you're there to protect it. And it's, again, like you said, conserve it for later generations.

Because that's really the only thing that we're passing on to our children. So it's great to see, you know, people out there working for that. And again, setting aside that hole that you guys are a bunch of dirty liberal hippies that want to end business and all that stuff, which I think is hilarious. But all right. So the last and most important question, how was the beer? Oh, the beer's great. Yeah, the Goose Island, New York, right? They are out of Chicago.

Oh, Chicago. Yeah, I think the most popular one or most well-known one is their 312 wheat. This is their honkers, ale. and Mike is going to have a little bit about the beer. Inspired by visits to English country pubs, Honkers Ale, combines a fruity hop aroma with a rich malt malt metal to create a perfectly balanced beer. Immensely drinkable. Honkers Ale is not only the beer you can trust, but one you'll look forward to time and again. This is a really good beer.

Yeah, it's an English-style bitter. It's really nice, really smooth. Nice session beer so you can drink a couple of them and not. I have to worry about shaving your tongue. Alcohol, but yeah, some of them we've had on the program. They're good beers, but boy, they were hoppy. Alcohol by volume is 4.3%. Bitterness units is a 30.

Color is a golden sunset. That's their description on the website. Hops is supersteroin and steranian golden, and the malts are two-row, caramel, wheat, and roasted barley. And you can visit that at www.goose island.com. This was purchased at Ranch Mart Lickers. They have a great selection of beer, so go visit our friends over at Ranch Mart Liquor. And, Zach, thanks for being on the program.

Hey, pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. I mean, we could do like nine of these sessions on each one of these topics. And I think it's nice to learn that, you know, I say it's hung in cheek that, you know, the whole dirty hippie, you know, want to save the environment. And, you know, we need to squash business. And it's nice to see that people aren't like that. that there's this realization that we need to have a responsible balance between being

pro-business but also being, you know, wards of our environment, you know, making sure that we leave something for later generations and, you know, because that's really all we do have. I mean, this got one planet, so if we tank it, that's our problem. You know, and water is always going to be a huge issue in Kansas, particularly, you know, we're now looking at severe, not severe droughts, but, you know, continuations of, you know, almost a generational drought, and then the depletion of the Ogallala aquifer, the impact that's going to have on agribusiness and the use of water in these various types of agribusiness, like the cafes and fracking, and how to, again, reach that balance.

So it's going to be really interesting here in the next couple of years to see where we go with it. But again, I think the biggest thing is invest in Westar, an 8% return. I'm joking. I'm joking. But we'll go from there. But again, thank you very much for coming on the program. Really appreciate it.

Anytime you want to come back and talk about one of these specific issues, let us know. Plug your website. Yeah, we're at Kansas Sierra Club. Just go ahead and visit our website. We're getting a new website here pretty soon. So check that out. It's very interactive. You can get involved.

Okay. That's a good follow-up question. How can you get involved? What's kind of, I don't get into membership? news or anything like that but what are some layer of chapters and where do they mean sure uh well we have a chapter really close by a group close by called the consa group we got five groups across the state so uh go to our website check it out get involved with very friendly people so come on and and learn about environmental issues and see what you could do for your state all right well thank you very

much okay and that will uh... do it for this edition of the podcast. So once again, credit to Sunflower Brew, Sack Luia, and our guest that time, Sack Bistora. I had to bring it back because this is a very important issue. I think green technology is the wave of the future. And shame on anyone who would say otherwise. Vote them out of office.

If you live in these districts, vote those people the fuck out of office. I swear God, they will be the death of us unless we don't do something about it. So get out and vote. All right. I'm not going to be a stochastic terrorist here. Just get out and vote. All right.

vote for candidates who agree with green technology and want to see it succeed and to hell with these jackoffs

who say otherwise so this podcast is uncalled for is hosted, produced and edited by myself, Mike Chernevsky. Our opening music is the Sunflower.

Our opening music is the this podcast is on call for theme. written at suno.com. S-U-N-O-com. The outro music that you are listening to right now is AfterTune. Be free original mix by

AfterTune. License under Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. can find this music at free music archive.org. And we also used Morocco Sting by Kevin McLeod and Accomptech.com. Licensed under Creative Commons by Education. I think we have 3.0 license now.

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You tell me that one. And of course it's like a graveyard for birds. If you love birds, you'd never want to walk under a windmill.