This Week in Startups - Airtable CEO Howie Liu on pivoting from blitzscaling to profits, AI applications, and more | E1838

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

This Week in Startups is brought to you by… Lemon.io. Get access to Lemon Hire, a platform with more than 80,000 pre-vetted engineers that you can interview within 48 hours. Get $2000 off your first hire at http://lemon.io/hire today! IntouchCX. Give your startup a boost and simplify your processes with next-level automated customer support solutions from IntouchCX. Discover your custom strategy at Intouchcx.com/twist Northwest Registered Agent. When starting your business, it's important to use a service that will actually help you. Northwest Registered Agent is that service. They'll form your company fast, give you the documents you need to open a business bank account, and even provide you with mail scanning and a business address to keep your personal privacy intact. Visit http://northwestregisteredagent.com/twist to get a 60% discount on your next LLC. * Today’s show: Airtable CEO Howie Liu joins Jason to discuss his philosophy of product-led growth (1:35), the current explosion of AI (36:37), and much more! Time stamps: (0:00) Airtable CEO Howie Liu joins Jason (1:35) Howie’s philosophy on product-led growth (5:05) Bridging the gap between spreadsheets and purpose-driven apps (7:12) Tweet storm referenced on the All-In podcast (13:19) ⁠Lemon.io⁠ - Get $2000 off your first hire at ⁠https://lemon.io/hire (17:13) Blitzscale hiring (24:28) InTouchCX - Get started with a free consultation at ⁠https://intouchcx.com/twist (26:18) Charging per-seed basis and revisiting Airtable on E814 in 2018 (30:36) Jason shares two successful use cases utilizing Airtable (35:32) Northwest Registered Agent - Get a 60% discount on your next LLC at ⁠https://northwestregisteredagent.com/twist (36:37) The AI boom and its potential dangers * Check out All In E146: https://youtu.be/X-Sb8sIi22g?si=fhiIi5ehFOyrMUD-&t=3673 Check out Howie in TWiST E814: https://youtu.be/55JnirJ7oHk?si=oPlNol8cotYrJTI1 * Follow Howie: https://twitter.com/howietl * Read LAUNCH Fund 4 Deal Memo: https://www.launch.co/four Apply for Funding: https://www.launch.co/apply Buy ANGEL: https://www.angelthebook.com Great 2023 interviews: Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland Check out Jason’s suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis * Follow Jason: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jason Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis * Follow TWiST: Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin * Subscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.founder.university/podcast

How did you know that this was peaking out? Did you have some crazy moment where you knew it was peaking out where people were like just offering you sick amounts of money without doing diligence? I will say one very, very, you know, big, big time investor, you know, offered a multi-hundred dollar million round on the spot, you know, as I was pitching them. Yeah, again, who knows if it would have come through.

In the room. And in the room. Getting offered a couple of hundred million in the room during the presentation. Yeah. That is peak. This weekend startups is. brought to you by lemon.io. Get access to LemonHire, a platform with more than 80,000 pre-vetted engineers that you can interview within 48 hours. Get $2,000 off your first hire at lemon.io slash hire today.

InTouchCX. Give your startup a boost and simplify your processes with next-level automated customer support solutions from InTouch CX. strategy at in touchcc.com slash twist and Northwest Registered Agent. When starting your business, it's important to use a service that will actually help you. Northwest Registered Agent is that service. They'll form your company fast, give you the documents you need to open a business bank account, and even provide you with mail scanning and a business address to keep your personal privacy intact. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash twist to get a 60% discount on your next LLC. All right, everybody. I'm really excited to have our next guest on the program. He hasn't been here

for five years. Last time, Howie Lou was on this week in startups, was in April of 2018. Here we are in 2023. My God, so much has changed. Last time you were on, Howie, it was pre-pandemic and you just have your series B for Airtable. Everybody loves Airtable. Welcome back to the program. But the audience who doesn't know what Airtable is and your inspiration for creating it, please explain in the simplest terms possible,

what Airtable is. Yeah. So Airtable is basically like a Lego kit to build really useful business apps. I worked at Salesforce briefly, solid power of their platform and how configurable it was and basically left to start Airtable as this really,

really elegant, intuitive way to build, you know, a large class of business apps, initially with a kind of direct end user PLG model, and now increasingly with more of an enterprise focus going after bigger, media use cases. But it's still the same concept, the same vision of, we want to empower every company, every line of business, even every person who wants to go out and build a really useful business app

to do it with the best possible Lego kit. Got it. And you mentioned the acronym PLG, product-led growth. Why don't we explain to the audience, since a lot of founders are now saying, hey, our success comes from this philosophy when you first became aware of it and how you kind of incorporate PLG into your process at your team? Yeah. So, well, I can tell you when it wasn't a thing, which was when we started out, you know,

founding the company and going out and raising our initial seed ground, I remember getting so many investors saying, you know, love the concept, love the platform concept, you know, maybe even like you as a potential founder, but this whole idea of build an awesome product, you know, it's going to get traction on its own. You're going to grow at least initially through organic virality. That just doesn't exist. You know, maybe Dropbox did it. This was actually before Slack had launched. So Slack wasn't even yet a case study. But really, you know, maybe Dropbox kind of did it, ever know to some extent. But there's no really good comps for a company that's grown primarily on the backs of a, you know, beloved product. And so if you

to get serious, you got to go and figure out an enterprise sales motion from day one, right? And in some sense, I'll come full circle to this, but like, you know, I'm sure we'll explore this topic. They weren't entirely wrong, but also, you know, what I think they miss and what we then saw over the past 10 years really happen is, you know, bottoms up adoption really did kind of hit the mainstream. And obviously we've seen now a bunch of SaaS companies, you know, start that way. In fact, maybe it's more of the default way to start a SaaS. product these days versus build up like a direct sales motion from day one. And that bottom up is, hey, there's some hero in the organization who's tech savvy,

who likes to GSD get stuff done. You use another word for us, if you like. But they like to GSD. And so they come to work and they're like, hey, I got this like a little secret thing here. We got this problem. Boom. I'm going to solve it over the weekend. You got that hero champion inside the org.

And then they spread your product. And we used to call this word of mouth, but it's slightly different than that because you do have this person who's evangelizing, I guess is the term we used to use back in the 90s. This evangelist is out there telling everybody this is the greatest thing ever.

What was the tip of the spear for Airtable? Because when I first saw it, I thought, oh, there's a spreadsheet. You know, oh, this is like this weird database spreadsheet because people would open up spreadsheets and they would use them as databases. They would use a spreadsheet as a CRM. It was that kind of,

the start of this was like the the Swiss Army knife spreadsheet of Excel that everybody used a different way, but it didn't really have the tools or the ease of use in the templating and that inspired you? Yeah. So I think what I saw was this big gap between, you know, spreadsheets, like you said, are very widely used for everything, right? Like, they're not just used for number crunching, which is really what they were designed for initially, like going all the way back to like Visical Lotus one, two, three. Like, you know, the spreadsheet was really used. really designed as a numerical, you know, analysis, like a number crunching tool, right? I mean, literally for accountants or finance people.

And I think what they've become, because there's nothing else out there that's as easy to be used or build on, is the default way to make a really lightweight app. It could be like inventory tracking for a small business. It could be your makeshift CRM. It could be here's how you actually manage production workflows at a media company. But it gets used for everything. And, you know, in contrast, like on the other extreme, if you want to actually go and build or use a purpose-built app,

it's very, very complex or brittle, right? So you find, like, here's one very specific point solution that does this specific thing, right? Or, you know, if you want to go build your own, it's obviously very laborious, and then you have to kind of maintain it, evolve, and et cetera. And so what we saw was this big, big chasm in between those two extremes. And we wanted an air table to have as frictionless an entry point as a spreadsheet.

So it was a very explicit design. principle to make air table feel like a spreadsheet. So, you know, the model internally was like, make it no harder to use than a traditional spreadsheet, but immediately add much, much more value if what you're doing is not number crunching, but you're trying to build an app, right? You have data in there. You want to build a workflow around it. Like, we can do a lot better of a job by picking off those use cases. So I was going to have you on the show because we had mentioned, or I think it was Sacks, we were talking on All In about the state of the company. Yeah. And, you know, it's been like a rough time the last two years.

And I guess there was some sort of tweet storm that we referenced. But you email me and said, hey, Jayhow, and you also emailed Sachs. Hey, that tweet storm wasn't correct. It had a lot of weird data in it. And we were like, oh, yeah, you know, our bad. And we want to correct that. We corrected it at the top of the show, I think, the next episode of the episode after. For sure.

Explain to me what that tweet storm was, how it got out there. And then how you went about correcting it. Because this is kind of a new phenomenon. There are these like anonymous accounts or quasi-business accounts. Sometimes they call them the thread guys on Twitter slash X. And they're kind of getting clout by kind of telling stories and tweets, which is kind of cool. You know, sometimes you call them the reply guys, right? And so somebody did that, but they used your company as like the format.

And it turned out they just, you know, triangulated information from like crunch base or wherever or like random stories. So what did they say? What is reality? Let's just get it out there because the company's actually doing really well. Yeah. Well, you know, I appreciate you calling that out. I actually don't know exactly where this person who posted this original tweet got their data. I was soon from CrunchFace since they work at CB Insights.

But they referenced, you know, air tables at like 150 million in revenue now, I think they said. And, you know, it's only been growing, like low double digits. Like I think they quoted 14% or something over the past three years. So basically, like almost. no growth. And, you know, and like, it might have to raise more money. And, like, it's like, what, what is the state of the business, right? Like, and, you know, and like, again, actually don't, don't fault this person.

Like, you know, maybe they were just trying to get some buzz around. Oh, you know what? It was the CB Insights guy. The CB Insights is, I don't know exactly what their business is, but there's some sort of data provider. I think, like, maybe they compete with crunch base. And so their premise was, oh, you're, you know, you're like this, you know, exam. of like if you take the public market comps of like Monday and Asana, they're trading at six times or every 12 times. You're a private company. And you have like a very high private market

valuation at some point. And that the bottom line was that your valuation was probably somewhere between a billion and two. And that's like whatever, 90% from the private market, 11 billion dollar value. Right. I got it now in front of me. Yeah. So. Yeah. I think their specific part was like, well, we've, you know, air tables raised almost a amount of money, right? Like, we've raised 1.4 million in total capital. So what if air table is not even worth the money they've raised, right? Which, you know, like, it was a very speculative post. And, you know, again, don't fault this person, you know, like, I think they were probably trying to want and get some buzz and, like, you know, a conversation started with something probably intentionally a little bit more sensational. But also, like, you know,

there's limited data out there or a lack thereof. And, you know, I think it was speculative by definition to kind of fill in that document and maybe again just kind of solicit a conversation to get going. That being said, you know, like we actually had already gotten to $150 million in AR by the time we closed our series F, which was like, you know, our last round. It was, you know, obviously during the peak. The 20-21 era. Correct.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we can infer like at a 30% growth rate, even with headwinds, 20%, whatever it is. And frankly, we've grown it much higher than 30%. Okay, great. Since that time, right? So, like, you know, even the overall business, and by the way, like our enterprise business,

which, as we talk more about the product and where we're going, that's been the part that we focus more on. But even the overall business has grown at high double-digit percent for each of the last two fiscal years, like even this year, which, you know, we're obviously closing out, you know, the second half of, like we've still continued to grow at a healthy pace that we have seen, you know, like some tighter budget cycles, et cetera, some like, you know, tougher, tougher, you know, kind of sales cycles, but, like, still growing

at a very healthy rate. And also, by the way, like, we're profitable now as a business. Oh, wow. You're profit. We're actually generating. We're generating cash flow. And we still have the vast majority of our funding rates in the bank. So we have over 900 million of capital in the bank. Obviously, now we add to it. So, like, you know, the specific. So let me ask you a question about that. Like, you felt the pressure in the market to switch from $100.00. high growth to, you know, growth, let's say, from absurd growth to high growth with profits. Even with 900 million in the bank, that seems like maybe an overreaction. So how do you make that decision as a CEO? Hey, we're not to get profitable. When you're sitting on 900 million, would it kill

you to lose 100 million a year for the next nine or 150? Or were you just trying to be ultra-conservative? And then how do you deal with these late-stage investors and the pressure of like, well, Why are we putting this money to work? We gave you the money. We gave it to you grow. How do you manage all that? Yeah. Well, first off, I feel very fortunate to have, you know, all of our investors really

understand and be supportive of us building the best company we can for the long term, meaning I've never felt from any of our investors at any, you know, round, you know, creating pressure on us to do something that's perverse to what we actually believe is going to be the best outcome for the overall business long term, no short term pressures, etc. What we're really trying to do is build a high quality business. And it turns out, you know, I think in an era when there was very cheap capital, it makes sense to go and try to deploy that capital in the pursuit of both experimental initiatives, both product-wise and go-to-market. And also just rationally, where the return on the dollar is low, right?

When literally the, you know, kind of, you know, risk-free interest rate is next to nil. Like, it's rational to try to deploy your own capital. Absolutely. Yeah. People are offering you money. At zero percent, essentially, and you're getting minor dilution. Of course you're going to go for the goal. That makes sense. But the game changed on the field. The game changed.

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I would say, you know, it's not. simple as just we got to go profitable, although that's one obvious, like, kind of milestone that we crossed. It takes much more of a surgical understanding of, you know, how, what are the growth levers of the business? And truth be told, I think, you know, airtable for sure, but probably a lot of other companies that, you know, I know of, like out there don't have as good of an understanding of their growth levers as, you know, we, we hoped or thought we did, right? Meaning, like, if you're a company that's super optimized, like Salesforce at some point, got to the point where they could predictably add, you know, another rep to the system,

get this much productivity out like clockwork. And they just could know, you know, we can scale it up at this rate, right? And I think for a lot of other businesses, especially those that came from PLG, and especially for us where it's organic PLG, we weren't even paying performance marketing dollars to get our top of funnel, like top of funnel just compounded over time. And obviously now we've added on this enterprise. sales layer to our business, it's actually murkier, like, how much incremental return are you going to get if you, like, add more people, if you invest more into the business, right? It's not

as predictable as we would have liked. So I think, you know, a lot of what we did was spent the past call it year, even year and a half, really trying to surgically understand, you know, how the business worked, right? And that meant for me going out and not only talking to other operators, some of whom are great, you know, advisors or friends to the company, people who are. of run companies or operated at scale like service now or sales force or many, many other kind of SaaS companies, you know, or, you know, for me to go internally within the business and like spend time both on the ground level with customers, etc. And kind of really understand like when things are working well, like when we do really well

with a customer and we're expanding and growing those dollars, like what's actually happening and what are the pieces of that that we can recreate more consistently? So I think it takes both an outward of like, you know, an externally informed approach. And certainly your board and investors can help with that. We have some great ones who have like really good perspective, but also like this very internal oriented approach where you go and really understand like what's working within our customer base

within our org. And really it's about like, you know, one, just getting to a healthy size as a business that, you know, candidly is like the right scale and the right structure for our type of business and our scale. you know, and I think, again, like the cheap capital, in many ways, it allowed you to kind of go and grow ahead of the curve, right? How far out were you hiring? Was it? Because this is something we talk a lot about on All In. We talk about it here.

You know, they seem to me that, you know, the big tech companies were hiring two to three years out in terms of like, let's get staff in here for literally two years from now. We'll get them, you know, because we're in this crazy competition. And then, you know, I'd say the large pre-public companies like yours, maybe you're, what, a year ahead of, you're trying to hire a year ahead of plan or something to that at the peak? Yeah. I mean, the thing is, like, I don't even think about it in that way anymore because, you could say, like, for our revenue scale or for the revenue scale we're going to be at in a year,

you know, what is like the typical SaaS comp, like the SaaS benchmark head count of sales and marketing and product dollars, you could do that analysis. But I think it's kind of the wrong way to think about it because, if you're really tight on understanding the incremental impact of every hire you make in any of those categories, product marketing sales, you know, headcount or more dollars, then you don't have to just pull forward all of those hires in one big mass, right? I mean, it's easier to go and hire aggressively ahead and just try a bunch of stuff. And, you know, frankly, I take accountability for kind of trying that, you know, kind of a little bit

messier approach of, let's just go and, like, step up and. Reed often calls it blitz scaling, right? It's like Uber did it, Travis did it, you know, like, for sure. It is a known strategy to scale. You had, I think, 1,300, 1,300 people to peak. You did two rounds of layoffs. Yeah. I think you cut 500 people or so.

Yeah. 6.50, wow. So half the amount of people. Yeah. And that's tough, right? It's brutal. It's really tough emotionally. Totally hard.

You know, for, from like, everyone in the room. Like, I feel, you know, there were days where, like, I felt horrible. Oh, God. imagine having to like, you know, go through that. And obviously, like, I'm not even the one who really has to bear the brunt of, you know, of these changes. But at the same time, I think, you know, the lesson learned is blitz scaling, I think makes a lot of sense. And I have a lot of respect for the concept and re-coining it. Sure.

I think it makes a lot of sense in certain domains. So certain businesses are truly a winner-takes-all. Like, if you're Uber, if you don't get in there, other, you know, Lyft or some other competitor, whether it's this park or a different one is going to come in. And it's literally who can get there first, right? Like the only advantage you're going to have is in building bigger network effects, getting better economies of scale, et cetera, especially as though when you have a business where the unit economics get better with scale.

And so it's almost like you can't even build the profitable version of this business without getting to scale, right? SaaS economics are obviously very, very different. And I would argue in most cases, if a SaaS company, especially after you get to like 100, 200 million of revenue scale, like if you can't make the economic model work or start like being very clearly on the path to making it work really well, throwing a bunch of fuel on the fire is not always going to help you. Now it might in some cases where, you know, there are some light, you know, kind of economies of scale like R&D dollars.

Obviously, you know, you invest in the software product once you get to sell it as many times as you like. But I just think it works differently in SaaS. And also these are very rarely as commoditized, you know, hyper-competitive markets as the on-demand economy, you know, companies that require blitzscaling, right? So, like, even with their table. Yeah. Well, as I was going to say, describe the feeling, the vibes, as the kids say, but just a general feeling of going from, hey, we're in blitzscale mode. We're adding tons of people. Yeah. And I would suspect a little bit chaotic, but like, you know, you know, like sort of this, like blitzscaling would be. And then, oh, my God, we're profitable.

we're efficient, we're safe and secure in this crazy maelstrom that is, you know, this, what was definitely a recession and is a recession for our industry, even though there's weird stuff going on, like GDP is growing at like a really incredible number. It's a very bizarre. Yeah. It's the craziest recession I've ever been through because we're having a crazy recession, travels going into a recession. It's almost, I call it the rolling recession where it's like every industry gets like three

or four quarters of down market, crash and or correction. and or recession. So just the vibes. Like, how did it change from one to the other? And does the company run more efficiently and feel stronger now? Yeah. Well, look, I think we're in the early days of building what I would call like the scaffolding for a really lean and focused business, right? And we've been trying to build, you know, that scaffolding and kind of phases over the past even couple years. You know, the riff is just part of that. Like, you know, actually getting leaner, getting smaller is part of that, but I think there's a lot of other parts of it, like, you know, having a really good operating framework for the business, like, how do we create accountability? One thing we did

with our product org, which is really exciting to me and I think to a lot of the folks in our company is like we're actually aligning our major product pillars. Like, these are the groups that, you know, the major surface areas of the product organization, we're really aligning them around different segments of the business with real revenue dollars attached to each of them, right? So no longer is it just like a, hey, we build. awesome features functionality. And then, you know, eventually it gets sold in marketing somehow. Give it an example. Like that. Yeah. So how you do it. Completely, you know, we have, we have like three major pillars. And one of them is around

self-serve revenue. And it's basically called the team's pillar. And we're orienting around like the self-serve product experience. So we always want to have this amazing, you know, kind of top of funnel experience. Anyone can hear about air table come in, sign up organically and get a really good onboarding experience, right? And even build an app of their own share it, whether they're a small team within a big company, or they could be, you know, a small company in and of themselves. But we want to make that experience as effortless as possible. And that's actually going to feed in not only to our self-served revenue base, which, by the way, as a separate, like even by its own would be a $100 million business and still continues to

grow hyper efficiently, right? Because that doesn't require much human touch at all. Or it's going to contribute by feeding in, you know, becoming the seeds of adoption within large enterprises, that eventually we can put a human touch on and turn into one of our many, you know, a million dollar accounts, right? So, like, that's one pillar. And it's, uh, it's accountable to real revenue outcomes, especially in the self-serve side. So it just, there's this like feeling of like, wow, like, you know, now the product, uh, folks and the, the R&D folks can really feel like they own revenue, right?

And like, I personally think, like, there's just something really palpable and exciting about, like, thinking as a business owner, like, GM rather than just, okay, I build this functionality, this feature, watch it. That's kind of, that's kind of it, right? So that's one of the three pillars. You know, won't go into all three. Well, no, but it's nice like when the people who are in the kitchen who are making this incredible dish can bring it out, land the dish on the table, and see the customer's reaction to it. And for a long time, the chefs, you know, and the kitchen staff in the front of the house is two separate experiences. And when they kind of get blended and you can kind of connect those things,

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Ready to ignite your startup growth? We'll book a free consultation with an automation expert at intouchcx.com slash twist. That's intouchcx.com slash twist. To build on that metaphor, you know, It's almost like if the chefs are actually coming out and seeing like the look on the customer's face and even like seeing which orders they read like which items the customer comes back and keeps repeating an order for. Yes. Then you can actually tailor your recipes around that, right? Like you actually start developing different menu items and like the way you prepare it caters to that end customer experience. Right. So you get like whole feedback loop going where I think in truth like one of the challenges of hyperscaling is it's really hard to keep.

that tightness of the whole feedback loop, right? Like, it's the opposite of the lean startup manifesto or methodology where, like, you really want, like, everyone in the room working on the company to understand deeply what the customer actually cares about what they're willing to pay for. And if you're adding, you know, like a ton of people and you're growing every function kind of at the split scaling speed, I think you end up getting, you know, like almost by necessity disintermediated from that feedback loop. You cut the company down almost by half.

Your clients were doing that at the same time. So you charge on a per seat basis. For sure. And so here's a clip. I'm taking you back in time. An unexpected clip. They just pulled this live. Here's a clip of you and I five years ago.

And me asking you about pricing. So 120 bucks a year, $240 a year for a user. If I'm an enterprise and I got 10 people in my company, do I pay more or less? So you pay more. Why do I have to pay more? So you get more of everything. So you get, you know, kind of expanded usage limits. You get a lot of administrative controls.

So certainly things like SSO. And you also get, you know, kind of... When you say that SSO, what do you mean by that? Yeah, so SSO is basically where we allow you to use your own authentication system to allow users at your company to use AirTeele. So I don't have to create a whole bunch of new accounts. Exactly. I just have the single sign on, boom.

Right. And you can provision, de-provision those users whatever you want. So they get all those tools. And that would cost what? 30 bucks in the enterprise a month? So it's more. 40 bucks. 60 per user per month?

60 per 20 per year? Yeah. So we actually think that we're... Marron! This is expensive. No wonder everybody wanted to invest in this company. And I missed it. I mean, I think... Oh my God, what was that Series A like?

That must have been like a 10, 15 million dollar round? So we raised actually a little bit less than that. It was around 8 million. Oh, my God. And you just raised 52? Correct. Yeah. 52 million.

And that was probably for no more than 20% of the company. That means a $250 million post. We're not coming on the But I'm in the ballpark But sure, yeah Because I'm in the ball It could be 10% of the company, who knows? Oh my lord.

Wow. I mean, it's just incredible. You dress more like me now and I dress more like myself. Yeah, exactly. I used to put the suit on and try to be respectful for CEOs, but you just think about that like,

gosh, what a moment in time, huh? Like, that was really, if you think about ZERP and you think about the inflection, that was 2018, you did your series B. Just look at that crazy, like, jump in valuations.

You had, you said the series A was like 12 million or something. And then boom. That was the ZERP. That was the start of the peak. I mean, that, that B round for us was before our unicorn round of obviously, which happened, you know, later in the year. And, you know, obviously we grew as well as a business during that time and sets that time. But yeah, it was, you know, like, I remember when we got to, you know, get the unicorn status, which was never something I, like, cared for neatly.

But, you know, to symbolize, like one, one step along the way. like there weren't that many unicorns out there right i mean they're like you know especially in in sass i mean there were a bunch of no in sass it was dozens yeah and yeah and consumer and yeah and consumer and everything it was low hundreds it might have been like 200 at that time or something not 2 000 and you know i think people extrapolated and suspended disbelief on a lot of companies in terms of product market fit for sure and maybe it wasn't there and that that was the big mistake in the entire industry but you you had product market fit yeah How did you know that this was peeking out?

Did you have some crazy moment where you knew it was peaking out where people were like just offering you sick amounts of money without doing diligence or like showing up at your house with donuts trying to get you to take it? I mean, I wish. I never had that experience. I will say one very, very, you know, big, big time investor. You know, I think this was more tongue in cheap than serious, but, you know, offered a multi-hundred dollar million round on the spot, you know, as I was.

them. Yeah, again, who knows if it would come through. In the room and in the room. We didn't take the round, you know, I don't even know if it would have been a real, real hard offer. But, but, you know, I think we always took a much more methodical approach to finding investors. So we never really got to, like, experience the full, like, you know, the full on wildness of the funding environment. Like, I wish I had stories of, like, investors, like, throwing term sheets. No, I mean, getting offered a couple of nuts. million in the room during the presentation. Yeah.

That is peak. I mean, usually you think, hey, you got to meet my next set of partners. You got to do diligence. Let me talk to a couple of customers. That should be a 30-day process, not a 30-minute process, right? For however many minutes into the room meeting you are. But listen, you had an incredibly strong company. Back to the product.

Yeah. Because I'm fascinated by the product and a product trend I'm seeing. There were verticalized apps and there were developers. And for example, we needed to do like two products recently in the last year. One of them was we wanted to have, as speaking of investors, when our startups, we invest in 150 a year now. So it's like when I met with you was like we're investing in like two a month. So 24 a year.

Now we're at 150. And we have all these founders together. And we wanted to build away two different things. One, a demo day kind of handshake thing where, you know, everybody who's an agency. angel investor coming to the dim sum demo day. I hosted at a dim sum restaurant because everybody loves dim sum. We would send him a link, hey, pick companies you like, click here to request a meeting, click here to request to join their thing. And I was like, okay, like, we'd hire a developer to do that. And they're like, oh, we built it already. I'm like, how'd you build the air table? I'm like,

okay, great. And that's supposed to cost me. I was prepared to pay 25 or 50K to a developer to do that. No developer. There's people today who are good at scripting and using these tools and the views and Zapier and if this, then that, whatever they use as glue to get it dialed in. Then the second one was we wanted to build an investor intelligence database. And so, of course, SurveyMonkey type form,

they start doing the forums where I'm like, well, you need a presentation level for this. And so they start using air table. But then there's Coda, we use a lot too, and then Notion. And so Notion, kind of documents going into database, Coda kind of database with some documents. You are like Excel

with database. And the thing I love about this trend is one, we can prototype software and it just works and it's not like no code and it's not developing so we can kind of go faster and I can

have the product leads. It's only a certain type of business person who can do this but if I can get them to learn how to do this and some people do it natively about 20% now of I think either young or highly technical people can do it. Man, it's so powerful when the business leader

can build the system and just take a week to do it, man, you don't have to hire a developer and then have them disappear and everything like that. So maybe you would speak to how people are using this. And if my use case is kind of indicative of why this is so addicting and why, you know, for me with a 20 person company, I don't know what we're spending on our table, nor do I care because I'm sure it's low thousands. It should charge you $25,000 to $50,000. Well, it sounds like we're paying low thousands because I have probably have

I don't know, 20 people on it or whatever it is. So 20 people, 30, 40 bucks a month, wherever we're paying, probably like under 10K. Yeah. It's a really great deal for both parties, I feel like. For sure. Yeah, I think what's happening, and I love that you called out, you know, to be honest, it's not like every single person in your company or even like, you know, outside of your company.

I'm sure like your company tends to skew much more tech savvy than like most 20% companies out there. But it's not like every person is coming in and like, building very elaborate apps on Airtable all the time, right? And I think what's actually, what's actually happening with this genre of product is it almost like abstracts away the technical bits of building a useful business app. Right. So, you know, if you literally wanted to develop it with code, you'd have to know all the best

practices of front-end engineering and back in engineering and get the off right and like just do all of these different bits and pieces just to be able to then work on the part that actually captures what I would call like the business data layer and the business logic, right? So in the case of, you know, let's say the like matching the, you know, the, the alarms or the company founders, like or the fundraising apps, like there's a know how around the business, you know, part of things, right? Like, what do you want to happen from a business standpoint? What's the behavior you want? What's the rules? Like, what are the best practices that you want to codify into the software? Like in traditional software development, you have to go through all the

technical bits that have nothing to do with that, just to get to the point where you can express that part. So really what's happening is that we're trying to abstract away, and I think a lot of these other products are trying to abstract away a lot of that technical complexity and make it, you know, it's almost like how you build a website with Wix versus with HTML, right? Like HTML has nothing to do with your business. It's like a very like, you know, kind of wrote language.

Yeah, no, I mean, you got to muck through some technical stuff to build the thing you want, whereas Wix just lets you go and, you know, designing yourself, right? In Arcade Squarespace, but yeah, both of those are exceptional products at that. And it's a perfect analogy. I don't have to get in there, you know, and do that. And just the same with forms. Like, you used to have to fire up a database server, fire up some HD on the front end. And then you have like something like type form or survey monkey, just super elegant.

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Twist listeners a 60% discount. For just $39 plus state fees, they'll form your LLC, corporation, or nonprofit. Visit Northwest Registeredagent.com slash twist. Once again, Northwest registeredagent.com slash twist. So let's go over to Aon. Yeah. You must be obsessed with this. I'm getting crazy obsessed with it. I made everybody in the company use chat GPT4 and Bard and everything. When they have some sort of an issue or question, I'm like, share with me, because now you can share the threads, you know, the chat thing. Share the thread with me where you asked chats before. Like, oh, I didn't. They smacked the head. It's like, let me Google that for you. It's literally like, let me Google that for you, the website.

And I'm like, let me chat GPT that for you. And had an incredible experience the day. We were looking at an equestrian company to invest in. And they're like, we have questions about the TAM. I'm like, and I just like write my thing. You're an investor at a venture firm. You're considering an investment in an equestrian company. Please give me all the data you can in a table with citations of the total addressable

market and subsections and categories of this. And like, I put it into Claude, chat GPT, and Bard. And my lord, the amount of incredible information. And I was like, we could have hired an expert in equestrian or spent 30 hours of research and not gotten something to spend. Hire McKinsey to go and do like a million dollar project on this. Exactly. It's literally like, what is McKinsey going to do with this? And this is year one of the technology. We're about to hit the one year anniversary. So that's just from my world, like a small thing. What are you doing as CEO? What are you playing with? What are you seeing internally as you run your organization? And then what are people looking for in the product? And how do you think about the roadmap?

So internal to external. Yeah. So, I mean, I agree. I think I think this is like pretty profound stuff. Now, I do think we're also at this point where there's a lot of hype. Right. I think we're in like maybe close to peak height. And, you know, while these models, especially I'm more excited personally about the LLMs as opposed to like image generation or other domains, but, you know, or at least LLMs that have multimodal capability. So it can reason and perform, you know, tasks like what you just described, like size me this Tam or write me up like a product description for this new concept I'm toying around with or whatever. It's more of the reasoning skills that are interesting to me than just like purely like, you know, something, something much more

visual or audio for instance, like the music generation. But I think to me, what's exciting is that like this is like the iPhone one, right? It's like clearly going to be a game changer. You know, it's got some roughness around the edges. It's not like it can't replace everything all overnight. And I think the problem is like, you know, I just hope that the hype doesn't get so big, whether it's on the investment side and funding a bunch of, you know, companies. Too late.

They're doing ASF or, you know, probably. Or on the customer side where like, you know, customers are pitched a bunch of stuff that doesn't actually work well enough today to serve the purpose. that there's this massive trial of a trough of a disillusionment that we have to dig ourselves out, right? Because that would be my fear is that this is really a potent technology. There are clearly ways that it's going to be applicable today, but more so as it just gets better and better.

And even comparing GPD4 to 3, right, the difference between those two, even though they're both large language models with many billions of parameters and trained on like really, really large data sets of text, like 2D4 can pass the ball. with human-like accuracy, GPD3 could not, even though GPD3 is pretty good. So I think we're just getting closer and closer to the point where you can actually get

these breakthrough applications. The way we think about it with their table is we're not at, and probably won't be, personally, I don't think we're going to be at, you know, in the very near future, maybe not even in like five years, a point where, you know, AI is so good at everything that it just replaces all human interaction, intuition, etc., in software, right? like you just completely cut out the human in product development, and generating marketing campaigns, etc. It's all completely run turnkey by AI.

I don't think we're at that point. I don't think we're going to get to that anytime soon. I do think we're at a point where if humans are very much in the loop and can use AI in a very specific way, right, and they can tailor how the AI is used that is predictable and very tailored, then you can get really interesting applications overnight, like tomorrow you can start unlocking these use cases. So like the whole premise of AirTable is like we create this app platform that is really easy to build on. And so, you know,

by virtue of that, we think we can give you AI pieces to put into that platform. AI field is, you know, our first example. Yeah, I like that. That's a really cool idea. Explain it. Yeah. And it's like, you know, if Airtable's a Lego kit, like now we give you AI pieces to build in that Lego kit. But it's really still about what you're building with those Legos, right? So if you're, if you're, want to build a way to do your product roadmap better. But now with AI, you can choose exactly what prompt and what data feeds into that prompt and, you know, kind of how you output the result. Maybe it's to customer or to triage customer feedback, right? Yeah.

Into your product roadmap. Or maybe it's to generate product ideas or, you know, a PRE for a feature that is in development. But you can choose exactly how to feed that into that workflow. Yeah. In the context of your own data with, with our, you know, kind of Lego pieces. So yeah, that's Yeah, you're right, mouse flag on, hey, this is customer feedback. Anytime customer feedback comes in, you know, say it in bullet points, as short as possible, and then put it into a category so you can tag it, etc. I noticed tagging, I'm working on a project on inside.com and like just tagging of news stories or tagging of blog posts, it's kind of figured that out better than humans can do it.

Like it knows the who, what, when, where, why in a document. So if you say, like, tell me the names of people and tell me the locations in this field of data, it kind of does that perfect. For sure. And that's just, if you think about data normalization and trying to make sense of data and feedback from users, man, that's amazing. And you say, let's give me the top two points each piece of customer feedback is and then look at this body of feedback and write a daily summary of it. Wow, that stuff is crazy. I think the range of it is what's so powerful, right? Like when you talked about like, you know, doing Tam sizing that's like very high grade stuff, right?

Like, you know, like strategy consulting level stuff. But the fact that you can also have it do very road work. And by the way, like, you know, in either case, even if you're using the most advanced model, like Claude 200k token or GP432K token or whatever the next best version it's going to be, yeah, it's expensive relative to the cheaper smaller models. We're talking like cents per quarter. Yeah, no, I mean, it's ridiculous. Yeah. It's like a billionaire. It's like a millionaire like going into Starbucks.

Like there's no amount of damage Starbucks can do. You could just order whatever you want and leave half of it behind. You're going to be okay. Yeah. Like the bills on these things is like laughable. Are you upselling people on the AI or are you just eating the cost and putting it in flat rate? How do you think about that? Yeah, we're still, we haven't officially watched the, you know, the paid, you know, full GA version of our AI capabilities.

and we're building out more features to that leverage AI. So in addition to AI field, we're building something that allows you to ask questions of your data, you know, like pretty much what you'd expect, right? So if you have a CRM and your table, you know, or your, you know, companies you've invested in, you can ask questions like, hey, what was that company I invested in that does this? Or, you know, list off all the companies that I've invested in in this category or whatever it may be, right? We're doing more stuff with AI than we want to package it all and both offer it one as kind of an AI bundle. And TBDS to what that pricing will be.

But we think of it similar to how Microsoft is thinking about co-pilot for Office, where it's going to be a lot of enhancements that just make the product so much better that it's worthy of like a significant add-on fee, right? It actually allows you. That's exciting for SaaS companies. Yeah. Because if everybody's going to do more with less, right? You're doing, your company has tripled in size, I'm going to guess, doubled or tripled

in size since you went half in terms of the staff size ballpark. I'm in the ballpark again? Something like that? You doubled a triple. I mean, we just did our most recent rift a couple months ago, but like we've continued growing. We've definitely gotten much longer in scale than, you know, at the time, like, we priced our last round. And your customers are coming to you. Like, obviously, Elon and Twitter went down 85%.

He's releasing more product in the past year than I can remember last five years of Twitter releasing product. So people are learning to do more with less. So then it makes sense that if everybody's becoming like, I don't know, like a demigod or a god, you know, like everybody's the 10X programmer who has a job, well then if their tools a little more expensive, if they're sword or their bow and arrows a little more expensive, like, okay, that's worth it because like if a 10x programmer wants a $5,000 laptop instead of a $3,000, and you just get it to them. For sure. And so that's kind of exciting. If people were paying $6 or $700, maybe they pay $1,200. Who cares about the incremental $500? the seat-based pricing, which has been, you know, everybody's, you know, cutting the number of seats as people tighten up their organizations. And everybody's doing that all at once, which is really weird.

But then people spend more, right? If you could spend more. So I don't mind, like, getting people a more powerful computer or spending twice as much on a SaaS product if it makes those people that much more effective at work. That makes sense. For sure. No, 100%. And, you know, I also think the C-count reduction or just like headcount reduction. or just like headcount reduction is probably a little bit more hyperbized than it actually exists.

Like we've at least not, I mean, there are certain sectors, really small businesses or like, you know, high growth tech in particular, obviously has, you know, a major hiring slowdown or even like contraction in head counts. But, you know, a lot of other industries, like we're not really seeing as dramatic in impact, right? So with our customer base, like, we're still continuing to expand, net expand, like in most of our customers. Oh, you know what? They didn't over expand. They didn't over hire like we did. So they weren't going, they weren't doing the Blitz Gallery. Totally.

Yeah, they were kind of, yeah, they pasted it more evenly throughout, right, the whole time. But, but I also think to your point, like, you know, if you can really increase productivity of each person by a dramatic amount, then, I mean, one, you can definitely charge more for it, right? And that can counter, like, if you can get, you know, a real 50% plus increase in the average revenue per user through these capabilities. He's like, you know, that's a pretty significant, you know, jump up, right? And that would be our aim is to get like a sizable jump up, not like something more, more incremental. But second of all, arguably, the companies have more reason to hire people who are more productive, right? Like as something, you know, as an ROI on hiring an extra person goes up, not down. Like, I actually think there's a world where at least in some functions in some industries, you hire more like developers, for instance, if they're more productive with AI.

co-pilot than not, right? And I would venture to say, like, I think the same would be true for even non-developers in other, you know, areas, like PMs, marketers, et cetera. Yeah, I think it's going to be very interesting to see what happens in terms of the economy and jobs specifically. We're still at, like, record low unemployment for our lifetime in the past 50 years. And there's still 1.6 or 7 jobs for every person who wants to get a job. Unemployment, participation actually ticked up a little bit. So I think we peaked at 69, 70%. you know, back in the like late 90s, early 2000s. And now we were like 60, 61, and now it's back up to 62, 63% of able-bodied folks in the United States who are looking for a job taking it.

So I think in this down market, you'll see more people, maybe come back to the workforce, which is great. But then there's going to be whole swaths of jobs that are removed. But, you know, it's so inspiring this new technology that I think it's going to make people want to solve more problems in the world. and the world's got an infinite number, I believe, the world's got like an infinite number of problems to solve. So what I'm seeing is

all the freezing of hiring in big tech is resulting in more startups. I'm seeing many, many more two, three person startups and they feel like they're as productive as the 10-person startups

just five years earlier because they're all using AI up and down the entire stack. For sure. So I'm super excited about where this all had. Are you excited about AI? Are you concerned about job destruction? And we had this executive order

come out and everybody's going to have to submit their paperwork and i don't know somebody in the biden administration is going to like tell them if they are allowed to do stuff and it's a little bit it feels like a little regulatory capture shout out bill girly what are your thoughts i don't know if you saw this stuff but what do you thoughts on you know the the best this could be or how bad it for sure i mean look i i think near term i'm very excited both because you know it's just cool to to see you know play with directly some of the stuff that you can do whether it's with mid journey or chat activity or so on. Like we can all touch and feel it and like it's exciting.

Right. Some of the stuff is like actually pretty mind-blowing. And obviously for us as a business, like I think there are some pretty obvious ways that we can take advantage of it and help our customers gain value from it. We can be that conduit. I would say long, long term, um, as in like 10 plus years out, I'm pretty worried. But there's just so many unknowns from here to there. You know, like obviously a lot of the conversations around like what have we,

you know, create superintelligence and, like, all of the AI safety features and can you even build AI safety with, you know, with a super intelligence that thinks far beyond or in a different way than we can. I mean, that stuff is like truly mind-blowing and like really, really, like, unnerving when you think, like, deeply about it. I can't, you know, claim to know, like, I'm anywhere near an expert on the topic. You're getting into science fiction. For sure. I mean, literally science fiction. What, what happens when AGI kind of starts thinking, about, you know what, how could I make myself smarter? Yeah.

And I mean, the chip companies are now using AI, optimize the design of AI chips. Right. And so if that's any indication of like how this thing could spiral out of control or in a wonderful way, I mean, we could see like the concepts of Moore's Law or chip design. They're going to figure some things out that were orthogonal things. thinking things that humans just couldn't get to. It's going to find all these nooks and crannies of efficiency that, you know, maybe we stumble upon every decade or two. For sure.

And it's just going to find them and be like, oh, by the way, dummies, here's six more things you could have been doing this whole time. There's a completely new way to fabricate processors hyper efficiently and with much higher performance. We can get like a lower, like a smaller nanometer process. Here's like how to be less heat. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be wild.

I mean, it's going to be wild when that starts. happening. And then this whole generation that's worked from home, you know, they're really like tweaked out about like commuting. There was this whole viral brouhaha on Twitter of somebody freaked out that they had a commute and they had to leave their house at 730 and come home at 615. And I dunked on the woman a little bit like, oh my God, the humanity. But I was thinking about it. You know what? Like Henry Ford put everything at a five-day work week from a six-day China and I think it was Japan at some point. People were working too hard.

And Japan started putting up posters. And then I think it was the late 90s, early 2000s. Like take some recreation time. Leave work early to go play tennis. Like they were trying to promote people to have more social lives. Yeah. I think we might get to the point with this AI in five or ten years that bosses like me are like, you know what?

Everybody's doing so great. Companies thriving. We're going to move to a four day work break. I know people are like cheering right now. Like, oh my God, Jake, how's seen it? But I mean, if things did get that good and you could get your job done in six hours a day or you could do it in four days a week, like maybe that's where the world winds up. Maybe we just, the great bargain is going to be, yeah, come back to the office, but three days a week and work one day from home or something. What are you seeing in terms of people's work ethic and how that might change and then work for home?

I'm curious as we wrap here. I personally, I love the idea of work smarter and not harder. And I think, you know, going back to the topic of like who are the people who are the people who. who go up and build systems, build apps, right? Like, you know, instead of going in and trying to like, you know, match, you know, companies by hand and do it in a very manual way, like, how do we automate this system? I think there's going to be more and more value for systems thinkers, people who, especially, you know, with AI capabilities,

figure out how to do something in a more automated way, still with some human intervention. But, like, you know, to your point, it's like three days a week, four days a week worth of human oversight and input versus like a full five day or six day plus I'm doing every single little thing in this. You know, the obvious example would be like, you know, if you're trying to generate marketing content, you know, obviously a lot of the actual writing itself of words, you know, writers, you know, often got and still get paid on a per word basis. I think, you know, I think obviously AI can help with some aspects of the writing. I don't think, you know, it's ever going to be a replacement for like human crafted or human edited writing.

But, you know, how much more leverage can you get with, you know, the, the, the, the, the leverage is big. I can tell you, like, in every organization I've ever been in. And I'm, you know, I'm a former journalist and editor. You know, there were always people who are great at editing, proofreading, fact checking, sendage structure, you know, leads, style things. And you should just run around the organization. Okay, who's my style guy?

Okay. Who's my fact checking person? and oh, who's my, you know, grammar, like lunatic. And now you use grammarly. Shout out to another amazing-sense product. And, like, it just gets everything right. And then you can highlight stuff in grammarly. And I think Notion has a similar product.

So now, like, I'm using Notion and Grammally. But just highlight something. You're like, make this better was like the prompt in terms of writing. Just highlighted and make it better. And somebody had written something. And most people are not natural writers. They forget what they learned in school. They never had a good teacher.

now you can just write something that's really sloppy and choppy, highlight it, and say, make it better. And it literally goes from like a six to an eight, or maybe even nine. And I'm like, well, that was a lot of what I did as an editor. A lot of what I do now in terms of how people, I feel like the AI is replaced 80% of my proofing with people, maybe 90. Yeah. Maybe 90%.

And then the part that's left is like, what are we trying to communicate here? you know and that's super exciting to me if everybody could be an eight out of a ten of as a writer as opposed to four to seven right man that would freaking fantastic and then we just focus to your point on like what is it the what is the actual essence of the thing that is different or matters here right that's super exciting whether it's a product or you know like writing content or you know you're designing some kind of new uh you know concept like it's all about like what is the like essence of the thing. And I think that's, that's exciting to a natural world where like more of us,

we all spend more time on that because I like, that's the fun part of the job. Exactly. I mean, Sacks was saying his biggest challenge as a writer, he's a good writer. He's obviously a great thinker, which is starting from a blank page. And he said now, like,

because it builds the bones of the framework for him and he could fill it in really quick, that kind of plays to his strength because he didn't have the ability to like, where do I start, which was kind of like my strength. Like I know exactly where to start. start. Like, I don't have to capture that first paragraph. I know the ending. And then I'm just like, okay, you know, how do we get from point A to point B? It's going to be a couple of twists and turns in here. I got all my little toolkits. And now it's like, well, you know what? Day, I can do all that.

Frickin fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Fill in the legs. Exactly. All right, listen, continue success. Thanks for taking the time. I know you're super busy. If you don't use air table, it rocks. I mean, your organization is going to be like 10 times more efficient and it's getting more efficient. Just give it a shot. Go to, there's like a bunch of templates and all these lunatics make amazing templates. So if you're doing your fundraising or tap table or OKRs or project management or CRM, you can just start whipping stuff up and it's kind of an addiction for some people. If you get addicted, don't blame me.

But it's a great product. It's super affordable, uh, airtable.com. Listen, Howie, great to see you. Let's do it again in five years. Yeah, that's fine. All right, man. Talk to you soon, brother. Cheers.

Awesome. Good soon.