This Week in Startups - Bolt layoffs, DroneUp, Lunar Outpost, $4.5B crypto fund, Ape theft + Diagram’s Jordan Singer | E1471

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

In today's episode, Jason and Molly cover Bolt's layoffs (12:11), Walmart's drone deliveries (17:02), Lunar Outpost's $12M seed (32:31), a16z's $4.5B crypto raise (44:07), and Seth Green's Bored Ape heist (54:40). Producer Rachel sits down with Jordan Singer, founder of Diagram, for this week's OK Boomer (1:03:54). (00:00) Jason and Molly introduce today’s topics! (2:47) Bolt is laying off an undisclosed number of employees (10:56) Gun.io - Get $250 off your first developer hire at https://Gun.io/twist (12:11) Bolt Layoffs story continued (17:02) We Live in the Future: Walmart expanding deliveries w/DroneUp (20:31) Embroker - Get an extra 10% off insurance for your business at https://Embroker.com/twist (21:47) Walmart delivery drones story continued (31:16) BetterHelp - Get 10% off your first month at https://betterhelp.com/twist (32:31) Startup of the Day: Lunar Outpost raised $12M Seed to build moon exploration and mining tech (44:07) a16z raised another $4.5B Crypto Fund to invest strictly in crypto startups and projects (54:40) Actor Seth Green’s Bored Ape stolen weeks before it’d star as the main character in his show (1:02:03) Jason and Molly tee up this week’s OK Boomer (1:03:54) OKB: Jordan Singer, founder of Diagram

Hey, everybody, it's Friday, and we've got five great stories for you. First up, Bolt is laying off a large number of staff members. And remember, Bolt had convinced their staff that it was a good idea for them to take out loans and buy their stock. Uh-oh. Yeah, a little bit of uh-oh. Then we live in the future. We live in the future. Drone deliveries, I mean, honestly, if I had to have taken bets, this would be the thing I thought was never coming.

It's here. Drones are delivering goods that include. laundry detergent, trash bags, and evidently hamburger helper because the company pioneering this is not Amazon, it's Walmart. And I have a theory of why they got their first. And then everybody's other favorite feature, start up at the day. We have a company called Lunar Outpost that raise 12 million to go send rovers to the moon and mine the moon. I wonder what they're looking for up there, Molly. Mine in the moon. We're going to have a lot of ideas. I mean, it is a real Friday

variety show. And then we could not let the weekend without talking about A16 Z's largest crypto fund. The firm really at this point I think should be called A16C for crypto. We're going to break down though whether they're in over their heads. Yeah, 4.5

billion additional dollars, over 7 billion total going into crypto. That's a big bet and a scary bet. Finally, Seth Green, a star of TV and the Silver Screen, had his board ape which is going to be in a TV show apparently stolen from him and we get

into a discussion about IP and rights and terms of service and what you can and cannot do with your board aid. It's going to be a great... Oh, and then, but wait, that's not all because it's Friday variety hour. We've also got... But wait, there's more. But wait, there's

more. Don't go anywhere. Don't touch that dial. Because we have everybody's favorite Friday segment, other favorite. If it's not we live in the future and it's not startup of the day and it's not dunking on crypto. You know it's okay boomer. Absolutely. It's going to be a great show. Stick with us.

This week in startups is brought to by gun.io. The simplest way for anyone to hire world-class developers expertly vetted by you by senior engineers. Get $250 off your first hire at gun.io slash twist. And broker. And broker's startup insurance program helps startups secure the most important types of insurance at a lower cost and with less hassle. Save up to 20% off traditional insurance today at a broker.com slash twist.

And while you're there, get an extra 10% off using offer code twist. And BetterHelp. Providing access to easy, affordable, and private professional counseling anytime, anywhere. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash twist. Hey, everybody. Happy Friday. Tons of news happening. We made it, Molly. It was a rough start to the week.

It's a rough week period. It's been a rough week in a string of rough weeks. Just a lot going on in the world. And I really enjoy our time together here every day. Usually 10 a.m. You can tune in at YouTube.com slash this weekend. Hit the subscribe button, hit the bell.

You're listening to this, obviously, on the podcast, in all likelihood. But, you know, 250 to 1,000 people show up when we go live because a little notification comes out. We call them the Notie gang, N-O-T-I. And sometimes we'll give them a little. a gift or a piece of swag or invite them to a party. So, you know, the live audience is like this little tiny piece of the audience, but they're so great because they get to comment in real time on the stories we're covering. And today we have five great stories to cover.

Yep. We're sticking to tech today. I am pretty sure. All tech all the time. We have an update on Bolt. It's been a while, and I know you've been thinking, what's happening with Bolt? Where's Ryan Breslo? Oh, wait, he's locked me.

Jason's not sure because he's blocked. But what is up with Bolt? Well, unfortunately, Bolt, according to tech writer Gergley Oras, Bolt is laying off an undisclosed number of employees. The CEO, Madhu Kroonvilla, sent a message today to the all staff on Slack and said, quote, it's not a secret. I feel like now there's like a template for like, or maybe this was sent two days ago. Because this, wait, maybe it was from two days ago. So today's Friday. So maybe this was two days.

Oh, yeah, totally. Yes. So earlier in the week. Earlier in the week, Gergli O'Ros, a tech writer, tweeted, Bolt CEO, Maju Krohnvilla, sent a message to all staff on Slack. He wrote, it's not a secret that the market conditions across our industry and the tech sector are changing. And against all the macro challenges, we've been changing to adapt our business. This includes reducing the size of our workforce and parting ways with some incredibly talented people on our team as of today.

For those directly impacted in the U.S. and Canada, our goal is to inform you within the next 30 minutes. People are getting the meeting invites now. It's rough. There's no easy way to do it. But these layoffs are upon us. In fact, Sequoia did a deck. My bestie David Sachs did a presentation. We talked about it for the last six months here and on the All In podcast.

So we all knew this was coming. And I literally just wrote a note to our founder Slack. of a founder slack with a couple of hundred of our companies in it. And I'll just read it for you you very quickly here. You've read all the tweet storms and decks and listened to the podcast from Sequoia, David Sacks, myself, Jamath, and countless others talking about the market downturn. To make things super clear, the only companies getting funded right now are the ones with growing revenue, cash in the bank, low burn, and a clear path to break even. Those four things are what I wrote. even those, these companies, which I would describe as the top 25% of funded startups,

even for these companies, the valuations have reset to five to 20 times revenue. Four million in revenue equals 20 to 80 million dollar valuations. In other words, there is a flight to safety and are repricing occurring. So, paradoxically, the startups that need the money the most are not getting funded, while the companies that need it the least are getting funded. We have six to 12 months in this bottom out period. It could be three to six months or 12 to 24, but I think six to 12 months would be the most realistic. So if you have under 12 months of runway, the best course of action is to cut burn by increasing

revenue, raising prices, reducing salaries, doing layoffs, and focusing on one core business. If you are working on two or three business lines products, it might be wise to pause them to increase runway and put all your resources behind your best business line or product. Happy to answer any questions you have here and our entire. team is available to review your restated plans. The Dow market is where fortunes are made. They're just collected in the up market. It is time to build value and build your career.

Things will rebound, but you need to be alive to benefit from that rebound. So do anything you can to survive the next 12 months. Yeah. I've already got 13. I've got about 30 emoji responses and a couple of actual responses that I'll deal with here. But here it is, folks. We told you this was coming. and now everybody, remember we talked about the layoff contagion?

And I think I said that when there was one or two companies doing layoffs, this is the contagion now. Every company is assuming that we're going to be in six to 24 months of downturn. That's a long time if you only have three to 12 months of runway. So that's all that's happening here. It is. The one thing that makes this sort of interesting, of course, there's the bolts, you know, the ongoing.

coverage that we have talked about on Bolt. The absolute obnoxiousness of the former CEO claiming that everybody's against him. Totally. And telling his employees to buy their stock. That's the part. Oh, yeah. That is the part, I think, that makes this. I was wondering if that was the part that anybody would notice.

Exactly. So there's like all of the mafia stuff, but there's also the part where back in February, Ryan Breslo was tweeting about how Bolt had allowed employees to exercise, to early exercise. Basically, I think to take out in some cases, at least, to take out loans to purchase their own options. Loans from the company, yeah. Loans from the company. And at the time, Jeff Richards had tweeted for almost every private company in Silicon Valley did this back in the 90s in the dot com boom.

And he wrote it was an absolute disaster. Employees spent years paying back loans for worthless stock, tax bills for merely exercising, etc. I'm not in the mob, but unfortunately lived through it firsthand as a founder. And Ryan Bresla responded at the time again in February and said, over half of our employees chose this. Plus, I would strongly encourage my family and friends to choose this. But VC says it didn't work in the 90s, so it's a disaster. VC. Twitter pumps the tweet.

This is why VC-run companies are never able to make strides for employees. So here's a, I mean, I hate the, what's that word, Chardonfreude? Shadenfreude. Shardin Freud. I literally pronounce that correct. Shadenfreude. I mean, amazing.

You gave a little shardin-froider. You gave it a little shart at the time. I gave a little. I sharded. I sharded Friday. You sharded it a little bit. Really, shout out to Hologam Polly and rest in peace, Philip, Seymour Hoffman, rain man, rain dance.

I sharded. If you haven't seen it, Long came Polly. Have you seen Alon Kamp Friday? Yes. And that is one of the greatest lines. Ever. Ever. So great.

But, I mean, here's what you need to know. Don't take advice from people on Twitter. And sometimes. In all directions. You have to come to your own conclusions in life. I mean, this is one of the big lessons in this era of chaos you know, in some ways

exacerbated by social media. This advice is being given on social media. This advice is being given by two you have two different sets of advice. One from somebody who's a seasoned vet who's seen this movie before and lived the pain of it. One from, let's face it, a highly successful kid.

Yeah. Who's his first time at the rodeo? Who do you believe? Yeah. Well, I would take both things in and talk to an attorney and accountant, maybe get five or ten more opinions from people who live through it and just make an intelligent decision. Here is what is super problematic about what just happened here. They just laid off apparently because there was a note from, I think it was the New York Times. Yeah, the New York Times said Bolt's employee count in Slack, in the main Slack channel went from 900 to 660. So isn't that interesting? Nobody really ever thought about that number before, but now it's a way to leak how many people are gone to the New York Times. That's just a good little detective work right there.

A little detective work. So congratulations. I mean, I think that's going to be spreading everywhere. Hiring software engineers can take a really long time, don't I know it? Sometimes it takes months, but gun.io is going to change that for you right now. They're a developer hiring platform. They're super focused, and here's what makes them different. their candidates are expertly vetted, and then they're matched to your company by a team of senior engineers, not by an algorithm or just a recruiter. Gun.io developers have eight plus years of experience, building products,

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So anyway, they laid off what looks like a third of the company, 25%, maybe close to a third. How many people in that third? If half the people took this, statistically, that means 150 people bought their options, took a loan out from the company,

now have some sort of, they don't work at the company, so now they no longer have insights to how the company's doing. Are they going to be fully vested? Are they going to get their shares advanced? I mean, who knows what's going on? here. But this is super complicated because if you laid those people off, Molly, if they only

had vested a year, would they have paid for all four years and now they have a loan to the company, they got to return their shares? This stuff gets mechanically and legally, incredibly complex, which is why they only do it for the founders or like top senior executives because it involves thousands of dollars in legal bills. And you know what? When everything's up into the right, everything seems like a good idea. When things come apart in February, even in February, even in February there were signs that things were going to come apart. And I hope now, it's important to note that it's a Bolt spokesperson

told Bloomberg that the number of employees who have been laid off and had also taken out loans is quote, in the single digits. Oh, they did. Okay, great. And that the value of their combined loans was less than $200,000. Hopefully that's true. I think we have to take them at their word.

But yeah, I wonder if Bolt should just forgive those loans. I wonder if they can. That's another thing. I don't know if you forgive those loans. If you have to take the shares back or something. It's complicated. Even if you've, like, if you did an early exercise, like I do remember a lot of people in the late 90s. I remember one guy in particular who was really wiped out by an alternative minimums tax bill on shares that he had exercised but had not cashed out. If that makes sense. He had converted them. There was like a conversion that

that counted as exercising them and you had to realize them as income and pay a whole bunch of tax on him, even though you had not realized the gains and the money. And then the stock was underwater. I mean, it wiped him out. I think. you had to declare bankruptcy. This is why people generally take the most conservative view of these things. That's why a lot of companies that are sophisticated have just moved to RSUs where they give them to you. It's just a very challenging thing.

And so we wish everybody who lost their jobs there well. And it probably is the right thing for the company if the company is struggling. And remember, we had that other story where they were getting sued by their biggest customer who was alleging they had securities fraud. Right. So this company has now got tons of headwinds against them. The category is obviously challenged. And investors are going to be, you know, challenged to put more money into a company that had such an absurd valuation.

Because I remember they raised that in a really high valuation. So you start putting this all together. Should you go work at this company? If you're at this company, is this the best place to work? And then this is where, you know, another contagion happens, Molly. Yeah. Somebody who's working here says there's so many headwinds against this company. My stocks are underwater.

You know what happens? You know what? Apple just, some people don't want to go back to the Apple campus? I'll take that job. And I'll go, I'll take that job and I'll go work at Apple. Flight to safety. Yeah, Flight to Safety. So Facebook's not hiring.

Apple is. Uber is selectively hiring. It's an indulgence or whatever word Dar used. Now you can see how quickly the employment situation changes. So all the startups and all the employees who had seven offers, three from startups, four from big companies, now it might come down to you have one or two. And the one or two might be less money than, you know, the seven you had previously.

And so this giant reset is happening in the economy. It's going to be painful. And for companies that are in this tweener situation where they still have to get to profitability, it becomes really hard. So I think they're doing the right thing by taking the medicine, but boy. I know.

But choose wisely if you are an employee out in this market. And if you are at a company in a boom time or a bus time, don't take financial advice from your CEO. Okay? Well, it's a little bit conflicted. Yeah. Get your own counsel. That's a good point.

Like, it's a really good point. It does not, work doesn't love you back. Sorry. I literally didn't even consider that. It's a very astute observation. You're learning very quickly now that you're on the other side of the table of where the conflicts

would be. I always tell people when they come to work for me or they're wondering about Carrie, listen, talk to an attorney, talk to other venture capitals, understand how this works. Could be word zero. Could be, you know, you hit the lottery or anything in between. So that's why you want to negotiate if you're doing these things for reasonable comp and, you know, great upside potential, but, you know, you do have to understand that we live in a formalized lottery here in Silicon Valley. It's almost like a casino that's rigged for us. You get

paid to stay in the casino. And depending on how you run, you could run it up and be a huge winner, or you can go to the casino and you just get a big hangover and you don't make any money. In this case, man, you're just taking too much risk. But in other news, Walmart announced they are expanding drone deliveries across six states with operators using a company called drone up. And so this is getting very interesting. I saw Jobi just got approved for air taxis. So a lot of the stuff we heard about drones and VTOLs, I think it's six or seven years ago that became like a big, big deal.

It's actually starting to happen. And I said, in a prediction, that I thought these would arrive before self-driving cars without steering wheels. So it does seem like, I don't know if I'll wind up being right, but it is neck and yes. Yeah, totally. Like we have Argo, but not widespread. And now we have drones.

What I find interesting about this is the Walmart part. Amazon reportedly had invested so much money into this, I thought. And this will, in fact, be the first large-scale drone delivery operation in the United States. So far, they've only been available in a few small towns. Customers could select from a short list of presumably pretty lightweight items. If you are watching this on video, we're showing a video of, I think, some of this drone delivery getting started. I'm not sure where this is, but it is not California.

It's like miserably snowy. I mean, it's a Walmart, yes. It's kind of a fascinating. If you're listening, it's like there's a almost like a mobile home, a two-story mobile home with a roof deck. And then next to it is some sort of a, like a two-story. Like a cherry picker? Like a cherry picker with a, which I think is where the drones launch from. So we're not sure exactly how this works.

I guess one is kind of like the tower that you would see at an airport, but only like a three-story one. And then the other one is like an observation tower. And the other one is actually where the drones go out of. I have a theory about why this is a priority for Walmart. And let me see if we'll run this up the flagpole. And let's see if anybody salutes. I said that VTOLs, like Joby, would first. First come to

Vertical takeoff and landing. Vertical takeoff and landing. Thank you. Joe B's of the world. Uber has a big investment in the space as well. To cities that have water. Why? Well, if they fall out of the sky, they don't land on somebody.

The chances of it falling out of the sky into New York Harbor and hitting a ferry is very low. The chances of it falling and hitting, you know, water in the bay is very low. Same with Australia. Sydney has all the ferry systems. So anybody with ferry systems like Hong Kong, Sydney, New York or Sanford's go are going to be amazing for vetoes. Now, for drone delivery, where would you not have to worry about landing on somebody's head, Molly?

Like rural areas, I guess? Correct. Perfect. In a city, if you're in New York City and one of these things gets clipped and it falls. And it's definitely going to hit somebody. The chance of it not hitting somebody on 57th Street or hitting a taxi is, you know, very low. Yeah. The chances of it landing on somebody in Wisconsin

or a non-denseate, Nebraska, Ohio, Wyoming, the chances there are absurdly low and everybody lives on an acre or 100 acres. So putting something in your backyard and saying, here's the four cones, drop it here, everybody in your family knows, don't stand there. It's doable, yeah. It's so doable.

And Walmart services this area more than Amazon does. Amazon is a city phenomenon. Walmart is a rural phenomenon. I'm going to quickly explain one crucial type of insurance that all startups need. It's D&O insurance. You've heard of this before. You might not know what it is. This is directors and officers insurance.

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Go to Inbroker, E-M-B-R-O-K-E-R-com slash twist and use that offer code, T-W-I-S-T. That's a good. That is an interesting thesis. Tell us what you think. No, D-E-S. I mean, it's as good as anything, right? Because it is interesting that they're getting there first, and it does make sense that they're looking for not only a competitive advantage, but do have these, like, this very far-flung network

of warehouses. They are launching to 3 million households in areas, presumably less populated areas. It's happening. Arizona. Florida, Texas, Utah, and Virginia. Crazy. What is it going cost? Three million. There's two things. So that's one percent of America, by the way. You know, there's over 300 million people here. There's 90 million households or so in the United States. You know, a couple people per household. So they talk about 1% of the population in the States, but these are probably people in rural areas who maybe don't have really great access to delivery. We talked about how GoPuff or Uber Eats or Postmates or Instacart don't work even in the

some suburbs they don't work, let alone the country. Yeah. This is going to open up a whole world because these things, I guess I have three questions. What does it cost? How much weight can it carry? And then what distance can it travel? Those are my three questions. Did they answer any of these?

I have answers to two of the three questions. Each drone delivery comes with a $3. $1.99 cent fee. Free basically. Pretty freaking cheap. Yeah, like $4 delivery fee. Customers can order items totaling up to 10 pounds, according to CNBC. And it's only daytime delivery.

You can order 8am to 8 p.m. So yeah, like you need some shampoo. You need, I mean, this covers a lot of ground. The 10 pounds thing, I mean, yeah, so to speak. It says that they will be delivered in 30 minutes or less. So I'm guessing it's not a very far distance. I mean, that's the one thing about drones is the battery life. bar is pretty like,

you know what's going to be really important in this. We talked about this with the company and our accelerator is packaging. These are going to have to be lightly packaged. So I think there's going to have to be an option if you order cereal or if you order a pound of sugar or you order a, you know, a razor in one of those giant plastic boxes. There should be an opportunity for you to say, unbox and put in paper for me. And because it will reduce the weight and space, density. So this is going to be amazing because, like some of the other products and services we've talked about, you know, including the little robots, including piping systems and hydraulic tubes, you really want to minimize the size of the item.

Like a razor and a toothpaste probably have as much weight or more in the packaging. In packaging, totally. I guess in the case of a razor, it probably weighs more in packaging and totally more in space. In the case of toothpaste, it's probably 20% packaging. I'm guessing when I open a box of toothpaste. Right. So it's going to be super great. Now, how far can it go is the other question?

I'm guessing these things. What can I drone go? 20 miles? No problem. Not very far. Well, it's the battery is the question. They say it's about 30 minute delivery. So that's the one question.

30 minute delivery. We do have an interesting. We don't know if that's 15 minutes each way or 30, but let's just say 20 miles. I'm guessing you can go 20 miles. Yeah. That would be my guess because they also are lowering to the ground. These are quadcopter type things. They're not like drones, like military drones or skycatcher, whatever the other ones were

that were fixed wing. These are lowered to the ground, release the box, and then take off again. This is awesome. Also, I love the little data that CNBC has about what types of things customers have been ordering in the tests. Gallaud of milk, sugar, cigarettes. Walmart was like, oh, they're going to get over-the-counter medication. like things they really need.

One store that was a test site reported that the top seller for drone delivery is... Coffee, of course. Hamburger helper. All right, well, that confirms my theory that this is for hillbillies. This is for people living in the country. Ain't nobody in Manhattan, San Francisco,

got hamburger helper in their pantry. Thank you for going coastal elite so that I didn't have to because we were all thinking of it. Other frequent items delivered by drone are batteries, trash bags, laundry, detergent, and Welch's fruit snacks. All right. Yeah, I think we, uh,

Winston's. Winston's and, uh, Paps Blue Ribbon. It lowers it on like a cable. That is incredible. Yeah, that's,

because they don't want you going anywhere near the blades. That makes total sense. So it's a witch. And a huge brick house and like a McMansion neighborhood. Yeah, I'm moving. I want drone delivery. This is rad.

I think, you know, uh, for me, let me think. It's going to be coffee. Yeah. Beans, when I run out of coffee beans, because that's non-negotiable.

If I don't have coffee in the morning, I'm driving. I do have a subscription. I was using Fonte, coffee, F-O-N-T-E, shout-out to Fonte. But I stopped for a little bit, you know, because I was doing it for like four years, and I just wanted to try some other beans. So I may go back, but I'm looking, if anybody has coffee subscription suggestions, let me know. I mean, I do, I do, I do Pets. I love their espresso forte.

Well, because I have a brevile espresso maker. I'm very specific about my Americano situation. So you have a one touch and you want fresh beans and they have, do they give you the roast date? Like the roast date is on X date and you get it, what, five days out, 10 days out from roasting? Pretty much. I get a delivery every two weeks. So it's pretty. Perfect.

So it probably takes under seven days to get there. And I think when you roast coffee, correct my or not, there's like a five-day sit that has to occur for gases to release or something. Something like that. So it might be actually advantageous, you know, or it might be fine that it gets shipped. over, you know, a week or something. But yeah, it came in a nice box, like a small enough box that I didn't feel too bad about it. Yeah. There's no packaging.

It's literally two pounds of coffee in a cardboard box and that's it. That's it. Yes. No, no fancy. Like, there's no plastic in it. I like that about the Fonte coffee I was ordering. This is going to be great. I mean, a gallon of milk is 8.6 pounds.

So you could literally, I mean, a half gallon of milk. I wonder if this thing is fast enough that if you're delivering. ice cream who would melt. The ice cream test is coming. Six pack of beer is coming. Like, there's going to, and, you know, the way- Field trip? Let's like rent an Airbnb in Utah. Yeah, send somebody. And then just do a whole segment. Or actually, we have an audience. If anybody in our audience will actually use this,

we'll pay for your delivery. So up to 50 bucks, deliver whatever the heck you want. I'll pay for it. Send me a receipt. And just, we asked you to videotape and send us a mini-review. So look at your phone. Give us a mini-review. Send it in. And we'll get the first review of these and tell us if it was worth doing. This is how he saves the money as he spikes all my field trip ideas and outsourches them to you. I love a field trip. They send us a video and it's a legit video from Walmart. They send us the receipt.

I'll give them 50 bucks. Up to 50 bucks. I mean, don't refuse it. I mean, it's kind of hard at 10 pounds. I mean, I guess you could order batteries or something. And Walmart is a small investor. And it'll be the first one we get. It's going to be the first one we get.

For sure. And it's a little video. We're not going to refund them all. So, yeah, don't send 50 of these. First one we go. The first one in gets paid. The other rest of it's on you. First one in gets paid.

And maybe we have drone up on the pod at some point. So CEO founders have drone up. We'd love to have you on here. Let's talk. So that was our We Live in the future. Pretty much. Which is going to be our Netflix, HBO show. You want to do it on Netflix or HBO?

What do you want me to? HBO's got bigger budget, but Netflix moves fast and is international as bigger audience. So you let me know, Molly, what's in your, what's a priority for you? I'm all about that popular. Alice trash. Let's go Netflix all the way. Okay, Netflix all the way. Okay, Netflix. You won. Netflix, you won. Sorry to my friends at HBO. I got people sweating me for deals.

I may have damned them with faint praise a little bit. Really, we're going to go with whoever offers us the most money. Let's be honest. No, no. I don't know if that's like, well, that's a good point. Well, we don't care about money. We care about budget. People are going to watch us either way. Exactly. That's what I mean. Like, who's going to give us creative control, ownership of our IP and the best budget.

Nobody's giving ownership of IP. We may have to concede that one for we live in the future. But anyway, and also we need a producer for that. So I'm going to probably use one of our interim. We're hiring a fourth producer here. So you email your resume to producers at This Weekend Startups.com or Nick at This Weekend Startups. com. We're looking for a fourth producer so I can take Nick, who is the senior producer right now and have Nick work on one of our show ideas.

Because I want to actually, you know, I'll flip the whatever cost $25, 50 grand to make a pilot. And we'll just make our own pilot, right? And we'll cut it ourselves. And then we'll be like, hey, look, we know what? what we're doing. All right. So that's our, we live in the future.

Yeah, and by the way, the largest reality TV company in the world who produced like five of the last 10 largest reality shows

of the last decade. Yeah. Sent me in a contract. And they are sweating me. They are fans of all in and they're like, Jake out, we want to do something

around you investing in companies, open concept. Like, we just want to have the rights for you for a year to go meet with people. I was like, oh, that's very charming. Yeah. So, you know, here we go.

Yeah. It's okay. I got your Wonder Woman. You're with me. Don't worry. You'll be involved. You'll be involved. I got your wonder woman.

I believe. Oh, no, no. You got your own inbound. That's what I mean. I trust you, partner. Yeah, you got your own inbound. Sometimes people don't even realize the stress they're under. They get physical symptoms like headaches.

Maybe they're grinding their teeth. I used to do that. Even digestive issues, right? You get that pin in your stomach. Well, those are all indicators of stress. And let's not forget about doom scrolling like I do, oh my God, and not getting enough sleep. When you're a founder, a capital allocator, the weight of the world is on your shoulders, and it's stressful.

And listen, it's been a stressful couple of years with the pandemic and the swings in the stock market. So here's your reminder to take care of yourself and maybe try some therapy. Better help is customized online therapy that offers you video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. there is no shame in the game of getting therapy. Go do therapy, get some stuff off your chest, have somebody listen to you, and just have a place where you can spend an hour, a half hour, whatever it is,

and just let it be about you and solving your problems and releasing a little bit of that anxiety. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy, and you can do it on your time, and you can do it at your space, right? So give it a try. Twist listeners get 10% off their first month,

at BetterHelp.com slash twist. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P-L-P-C-T-T-E-L-P-T-T-R-R-T-R-R-R-R-T. All right, here we go. Start-U-A-R-O-T-E-S-E-S. Start-E-E-N-E-R-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-T-E-T-E. People love the segments. People love these segments. They're so good.

We need stings. We need some, uh, some audio transitions for these. Yeah. Oh, which way. We shung Spielberg. I need some stings from Spielberg. I need some stings. I need a Spielberg sting. Lunar outpost.

Lunar outpost has raised a $12 million seed to build moon exploration and mining technology. It's like half we live in the future, half start up of the day. According to Axios, quote, the moon is poised to become a major geopolitical and scientific center of operation in space as more nations and companies turn their attention. to the lunar surface. Sure. A number of companies have plans to take advantage of that interest by figuring out how to extract resources from the moon and get paid to do it. So the money will fund this company, Lunar Outpost, its plans to build a new autonomous

rover for the moon. And then, of course, amp up what technology it currently offers. They plan to launch a rover onto the moon within the year. Wow. Yep. So they're going to go to the moon and start taking samples and then, and try to get them to come back. Yeah.

Or maybe in their first version, they'll just take samples and analyze them up there and send the data back. They'll probably send the data back. Yeah, exactly. They're probably never going to bring the rover back. Now we're going to start littering on the moon.

Then there's going to be an opportunity for a company to go and scoop up all the stuff from the moon. Have you read the moon as a harsh mistress by Arthur Sinclair? No. It's really good. It's basically about a future in which there is a mining colony on the moon. that, you know, spoiler alert, of course, wants to declare its independence from Earth because that's how those books always play out.

The lunar outpost has a $1 contract with NASA currently to collect lunar dirt for the agency. But, you know, obviously this is mainly about creating this, like, framework for companies to mine the moon on behalf of an agency. I wonder what, do we know? I'm going to go ahead and offer $100 for the dirt. I just outbid NASA 100 to 1. I'll take $100 for a bag of dirt from the moon.

What's in the dirt on the moon? What if we get up there and it's like, yeah, it's nothing more. The moon is just like a piece that came off the earth or some other planet. There's nothing valuable up there. And what are the chances. Do we know there's something valuable on the moon?

That's exactly what I just looked up. Helium 3 is evidently on the moon. It's rare on earth but abundant on the lunar surface. So that's a big one because that's the fuel source for nuclear fusion reactors. Should those ever be developed? So that's a big deal. Other rare earth metal. evidently exist on the moon.

I'm sort of scanning. That's going to be great for nuclear energy. So, I mean, here's an idea. What if we put on the moon, put the nuclear reactor on the moon, and then somehow had a way to get the energy from the moon to the earth. Now, I know that sounds science fiction-wise. But if we put something on the moon and there was, you know, God forbid, on the moon a three-mile island or a Fukushima or Chernobyl, well, nobody lives there.

so it's not going to damage anybody. We don't have this like thing. So theoretically, if the fusion reactor was on the moon, would there be a way to light it up and somehow get it to Earth? I'm thinking like a directional, you know, stream of energy. Well, you know what you can do is if you solve for back and forth transportation, which isn't that hard, it seems like, you know, on a relative basis. I was talking to my boyfriend about this because he's in renewable energy

and I was telling him about Elon Musk's comments, actually, that solar is better than fusion because you'd have to build this big infrastructure for fusion. And he was like, no. It's like decentralized distribution is actually the way. Like that's the way that renewable energy is going solar. And then also that's the way to make fusion work. Like basically every household gets a little Tony Stark nodule. So if you could create, if you could manufacture the nodules on the moon in this like sort of safe environment, potentially safeish.

And then just bring those home. and then every house, like, gets one. Because the thing is, you only need one. It's a permanent power source. Got it. This is like super sci-fi, and I don't know what I'm talking about. Exactly. Me either.

I'm like, okay, good luck. I hope that works, Tony Star. Whichever Tony Stark makes it. If we can, like, if we can solve fusion with hydrogen three that we get from the moon and then have an unlimited, effectively free energy source, we can solve every fucking problem. Every problem that you'll, yeah. I mean, you just think about, like, uh,

the challenges of shipping stuff around the world and flying people around the world and keeping people warm. Like, I mean, a part of the reason people don't live in certain parts of the world is it's too hot to air conditioning and too cold to heat or both of those things, depending on the season, and so those places are hard to live in. Part of the reason we don't have water is because desalienization is expensive. Part of the reason we don't have great vegetables available to everybody is because certain places require an inordinate amount of water in order to do that. But we have plenty of water, we just need to be able to clean it and ship it. And shipping and cleaning water takes energy. So this is why if we had five nuclear power plants along the Pacific Ocean, which we do

have some, and we had desalization, and there are some, and we put them next to each other or solar farms and some combination of these, we could actually just have water flowing into Arizona or something like, you know, we're more than willing to build a pipeline filled with oil. What about a pipeline filled with water? And you literally get it out to an area that's more arid and can't grow stuff. And now you can grow stuff and you don't really have to worry about the water because the water goes into the earth and goes into the water table and gets evaporated. Exactly. And that's just talking about the nuclear energy that we already have. Fusion. Yes. It is even more unlimited.

It's 100% solvable. And that's like, that's unlimited. That you do whatever you want. You solve every freaking problem. It's coming. Energy is free and it's coming. Except China is going to get there first at this rate and then we're screwed. Next. Yeah, I don't know. I think China's going to go into a civil war. I think they they bit off a little more than they can chew. We can, we can criticize our plan. We can criticize our system here. We got a lot of things. It's like a race to civil war at this point. Well, I mean, if you, yeah, who's going to have so. I mean, if you think about it, the issues we fight over are so frustrating because they are so easy to solve, you know, for a modern society. We just happen to have some weird constitution that makes some,

things and, you know, a weird government system that makes some things harder and voting system to resolve, abortion, gun control. We know the list. But then we also have freedom to pursue this and have somebody create a company like this and get it funded. So I'm going to go with our freedom and weird problems. We have a hard time solving that Xi Jinping or Putin can just sign with a stroke of a pen and be like, here's how abortion works, here's how guns work, here's how high-speed trains were,

discussion over. Our messy system maybe you know, it's why we can make this company that's going to go to the moon and collect dirt. So, you know,

take the good with the bed. Honestly, we might just end up in a war with China over who owns the moon, but that's like a whole separate issue. Yeah. Well,

there you go. I mean, there's like a, there's a treaty. We should, it would be really interesting to get somebody on and do a show about

all of this sort of this. Well, there is like a space treaty that sort of like tries to lay out ownership and what you can monetize. and when, and a lot of that is about to get tested for like a nanosecond of time,

I was like, I want my next career to be space lawyer. But then I changed my mind. Seriously, like, that is going to be a massive industry. Your Honor, this is unacceptable. We were here on the moon. We had set our water vaporizers up. We had started terraforming. And then this person came over and started terraforming in our plot.

And it's literally going to be like California. That's it. That's exactly what it's going to be like. be a battle like, well, okay, on what date did you start terraforming? Which, you know, which quadrant of the moon did you start terraforming? Okay, I'm going to split the difference. You get half the terraforming. I claim this moon for launch. I mean, look at today's show. We're literally talking about, you know, getting helium three off the moon and drone deliveries delivering hamburger helper. Yeah. To these poor hillbillies who ran out of hamburger helper and sorry to hillbillies. everyone. I'm referring to, is it not? I thought hillbillies.

Hashtag coastal elite. I thought people are proud of being hillabillies. No, I'm talking about hamburger helper. It's not good for you. Oh, okay, good. I thought you were admonishing me for marginalizing hillbillies. No, look, listen, I spent five minutes in Miami

and you want to know what I told my friends? I was like, I'm a coastal elite. This place is trash. Oh, my God. Well, I should tell my joke about Miami. I lived in New York, where everybody was, beautiful, ambitious and smart.

Yep. Then I moved to L.A. And everybody was beautiful and ambitious. Mm-hmm. And then I spent some time in Miami where everybody is absolutely beautiful. So beautiful, aren't they? That's it.

Also, that's it. Not everyone. But they don't seem to care. There is another factor. I do think, and we're not going to get ourselves in trouble here. Oh, we are. Oh, yeah. No, I know how to phrase this.

I am super body, positive. I don't want anybody to feel bad for their body. However, in my personal experience, when I was 40 pounds overweight, I didn't wear a mankini. Now that I've lost 40 pounds, in another 12 pounds, I will be wearing a Speedo and I will be on the beach at Miami. But not until that time. Because I would like to be modest. But when this body is ripped and I look like Chamas, yes. I will be doing a shirt off selfie.

Done. And that's a lock. I mean, if 64-year-old, 67-year-old, Professor Galloway can take his shirt off, I can take my shirt off. I'm 16 years younger than. Absolutely. Let's keep going.

Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. The whole town. Okay. Eight. That was a lot of booty in Miami. A lot of booty.

Whether you wanted it or not. It wasn't really your choice, Polly. You were going to get booty? It was not. It was not your choice. No. And there's no HR department in Miami. Also, this, I kid you not, my brother and I were having Covee and a car drove by.

And I kid you not, there were three people twerking, one twerking out of one window on one side, one twerking out of another. Another one was laying on the top of the car, not the hood. Yeah. The roof. No, there's no rules. I mean, they're right about that. roof. No rules in Miami. And she was on all fours twerking on the roof of the vehicle. And I just thought to myself, I can appreciate some dancing in the afternoon. Yeah. But is that safe?

I mean, if the car has a sharp start and you're twerking, you're going flying off the hood. This is just dangerous twerking. Definitely. Yep. I don't. I don't know. I mean, look, they told me there were no rules in Miami and that appears to be the case. I mean, if you were in New York and you were twerking on the roof of car, a police would pull you over and they were to arrest you. And they, that's it. Game over. All right. Listen, talking about game over. Let's talk about crypto, shall we? Yeah. Talk about game over. Let's talk about crypto. Let's talk about crypto, shall we? Exactly. Because A16Z, to borrow some parlance is all in on crypto. A16Z has raised another four and a half billion dollars to invest strictly in crypto

startups and projects. This is Andreessen's fourth crypto fund, which will be broken into a one and a half billion allocated for seed investments and then three billion for venture investments, which are slightly later stage. That brings the total crypto funds raised to $7.6 billion. And during this same time period, 2018 to 2022, a 16s's original fund, which invests in ho-hum tech startups that don't pay them twice with tokens has only raised $4.6 billion. dollars. Like, they're just a crypto fund now. That is bonkers. So in order to make this work, just so people know,

4.5 billion for this fourth fund, later stage funds, you know, you don't have the same multiple expectations because of a larger number, but this seems obscene and insane. You would have to return, uh, in order to this to be considered a success,

basically three times. So three times, 4.5 is 13.5. So you've got to return 13.5 billion. It seems very hard to do. Well, they got to return 20, almost 22, a little over $22 billion for all of it. I know. It's a lot.

It's a lot of money. I mean, if, and you, you only, they only get to own 10% of each project, right? So if Coinbase is worth $15 billion right now, I think, and they own 10% of Coinbase, if they had owned 10% of Coinbase, I don't know what they owned. But that would be a stretch because, you know, that's hard to maintain the percentage. but let's just say it does happen. That would be $1.5 billion. So in this case, to get to $15 billion,

they would need to have, just for this latest fund, 10 coin bases in it. Coinbase is one of one in the crypto field, I believe. And so this is, you know, the increased size of a fund makes it really hard to get an actual return.

And that's why most people, yeah, have a hard time. Math is a harsh mistress. even harsher than the moot. I mean, right? When you put it in those terms, it's like, what are these LPs thinking? 10 coin bases?

Yeah, well, here's the thing. In 10 years? Well, we also know about the grifting and bag holding and the back dealing that occurs in crypto. Now, I'm not accusing and tracing of that, but other people have. Like, I think Jack Dorsey was very clear on Twitter saying, like, you are buying the coins

before everybody else has to them. You're the opposite of building. a democratizing investing, you're getting an early on these coins for a penny. The bagholders wind up being the, you know, the retail investors who buy them for $100 or $10 or a dollar even. And they get to liquidate them. And typically the VCs, especially these early ones, my understanding, Jack had said, this not me.

I'm not making any accusations here. I know Chris Dixon, a nice enough fellow and we're friendly with each other. We're not exactly friends, but we're friendly. We know each other for over 20 years, I think. and I wish them the best. But I do think that when all of this winds up getting investigated in the final instance, if an Amazon or three don't come out of this and the government starts unpacking everything, they're going to look at this self-dealing and trading.

Like, you've got to think the Department of Justice and SEC wants to understand what's going on with these, you know, these tokens that behave like a security that investors are buying. and now the investors are buying these tokens they're an investment firm they're not using the tokens for utility right so you have an investment firm buying these tokens and then flipping them right uh and then the public's buying them

this seems to me to be highly illegal or against securities law my not accusing anybody of doing anything illegal to be clear i'm just saying it might appear to the SEC given what their pursuit of xrp and ripple and who knows where that case will wind up that a venture firm knowingly doing this and buying these coins early if that was what was happening, like Jack said in his tweets. If that's happening, I think the SEC's got to be all over this. Well, and we have talked to companies who have said,

I think, you know, our investors own some percentage of our tokens. We did an interview to that about 30%. And so that is like fundamentally my question about these funds. We keep saying these funds like it's code A16 Z going so hard into crypto is like my thesis here is aren't they getting paid twice. They are taking equity in these companies. And if there is a token and they get an early issuance of the token, then not only do they get paid twice, but they get paid one way that has a lot more liquidity. Right. That's true. The tokens are instantly liquid and the private company stock. And if the LPs don't, if the LPs don't get a cut of the token, proceeds, like do they? Like I would. I would love to see that contract. But you can understand

why it would be attractive to either the LPs or the firm itself. Some tokens, of course, have lockups and can't be instantly liquid, but they're still more liquid than equity. But it's generally first in, first out. Right. Is, I think, what happens here. And so it does, like, it does start to feel like a

really big scheme. Like, you can certainly why you would want to get paid twice if you could, but it's sort of like, I'd like the innovation, I'll be honest, I just think this feels like, you know, and I think Chris Dixon said, you know, in a blog post, hey, listen, we are,

I'm just you have some quotes from Chris Dixon and I'll give you my reaction to them. We think we are now entering the golden era of Web 3. Okay, maybe. I would like to see some actual products. And he says, program of blockchains are sufficiently advanced and a diverse range of apps have reached tens of millions of users. Now, this one I have a problem with. Yeah.

If you took tens of millions of users, the word users should be replaced here with speculators, investors. And they're not users. There are not tens of millions of users. of crypto. There are tens of millions of investors in crypto. Everybody who is buying NFTs that do not have a

specific right associated with them, like getting into Fryfish Club or, you know, whatever, or after party, getting into a music festival. If you're buying an NFT just for the art and flipping it, that's an investment. If you're buying tokens or Bitcoin or Ethereum or Solana or whatever it is,

that's an investment. So these are not users. They're investors. It's not a coincidence. that the biggest names in crypto right now are exchanges. Yes. Right. Coinbase. It's not a diversified set of apps, right?

It's apps for buying and selling crypto and crypto-related assets. So here's where I think he's not being intellectually correct. There's two parts of the sentence. I got the first. I got the second one. You got the first, actually. I didn't even consider that. A diverse range of apps.

They're not diverse. That's not true. They're far from diverse. The apps all center around speculation and money transfer and storage, which are kind of the same thing. When you buy a diamond or gold or American dollars or a stock or a piece of art, there is a store of money to it, there's an appreciation of money to it,

and in some ways you can transfer them, right? You can take your coin, your gold bouillon, your piece of art, and you can transfer it to somebody. That's not a range of apps. It's kind of one app, also known as investing. And if the whole thing's investing, and nobody's actually using this stuff. Like, I don't know.

Is anybody storing their photos on Filecoin? Or is anybody using a distributed, there was the distributed rendering platform where they were going to render Pixar movies across a distributed set of blockchain, you know, of extra CPUs. That's not happening yet either. So, man, they better hope that some of these products ship

because if it doesn't ship and this thing keeps going down, this is going to be cataclysmic. And, you know, and I have to, I mean, I just have such a philosophical. I consider this a war for the planet in some ways, right? Like there's, you've got A16 Z that's raised seven and a half billion dollars in venture funding for crypto projects, many of which remain incredibly energy intensive. And you have in 2021, 37 billion dollars worth of funding going into climate tech venture capital.

Like, we're just getting like, you know, outgunned by the terms of investment. And it's like that's where all the FOMO is, is in crypto. I mean, that's a lot of money going into climate tech funding. But I just find I'm like so, I feel like that to me is the book about what Venture Capital could have done when. We'd have to put all the crypto funds together, right? And so it would be interesting to put the climate tech funding by year against crypto funding by year.

And it doesn't just include, Molly, the VC funding. Because in climate tech, you have downstream investors, sure. Oh, for sure. You will also have a layer of investors that's the public being involved in crypto. So you kind of have to put two layers. Here's the institutional money. Here's the public's money. And the third thing he says in this blog post, they are brilliant and passionate.

More importantly, a massive wave of world-class talent has entered Web 3 over the last year. They are brilliant and passionate and want to build a better internet. I don't disagree with this. I think there's a lot of passionate people over there. Some of them are talented. Some are talented. I think nine out of ten are passionate. Just like New York, L.A., Miami.

He could, I mean, there's a reason why Miami is a center. Some are talented. If you were going to trace crypto back, Miami's the hub. L.A. is the second hub. New York's the first hub. So do the math. It kind of works backwards, right? On the plus side, it looks like crypto in 2021, at least,

crypto venture capital was like maybe about 30 billion total compared to climate. Climate's 37 billion. So we got this, people. We got this. The question is, which is. on our backs. Which is more important for the planet is a good question. You know,

people's sovereignty of money is important, you know? Just like people's information is important and the internet played such a big role. So if this is the equivalent of the internet for money, sure, it's possible. But I would really like to see more product ship. And I don't know what game Andresen Horowitz is playing here, but it seems like a dangerous one.

All right. I saw over the last week that something happened with actor Seth Green. he had a board ape, it was stolen. Right before he was going to launch a show. Amazing. That was going to feature his board ape main character. Now, I told people plenty of times.

I think the board ape club is interesting because of the shared collective IP universe. Imagine if a thousand people, each board a Marvel character, and then could exploit the Marvel character, and make whatever they wanted, collectively that would be chaos and perhaps interesting. obviously to make Marvel work

Disney had to not only buy Marvel but then they had to go get some licensing agreement for Spider-Man which was owned by Sony because Marvel did exactly this. Marvel gave away the rights to 20th Century Fox for the Fantastic Four and X-Men and that's why

certain cameos over the years, Spider-Man X-Men, Fantastic Four included happened in like phase three or four of the Marvel universe because they had to re consolidate that ownership. But anyway, I do think it's an interesting concept. It is, right.

I don't know what happened here, Molly. So the IP question is profound and fundamental, and that, of course, has drawn in people like Seth Green who bought a board ape and developed a show around this IP that would feature his board ape as the main character. Then he did have his wallet hacked. No, I'm sorry, he was fished. He had four NFTs stolen earlier.

May in a fishing scam and one of them was in fact board ape number 8398 on which this show is based. Then a few minutes later, just like that, almost suspiciously quick, some have speculated. Someone bought an anonymous account, Dark Wing 84, bought that board ape for over $200,000. It happened so fast that Buzz Green was like, BuzzFeed was like, uh-oh, it seems like maybe the thief and the buyer were connected, but we don't really know. Seth Green started tweeting, Hey, Yuga Labs, please don't buy or trade these

while I try to resolve this. Hey, at Darkwing 84, looks like you bought my stolen ape. Hit me up and we can fix it. And then... Darkwing 84 again. Darkwing 84. Seth Green now is tweeting, looking forward to precedent, setting debates on IP ownership and exploitation,

having spent 18 years studying copyright and industry laws, I'd rather meet Darkwing 84 to make a deal versus in court. We can prove the purpose. promise of the ape community, and then writer and CEO of the media relations company, EZPR, Ed Zittron, tweeted a screenshot of the Yuga Labs ownership rules, which basically say, you are SOL. It is so clear in the ownership rules that whoever, that possession is all, whoever owns the product owns the IP, Ugo Labs has no input on that and we'll do nothing.

They've watched their hands of it. They don't want anything to do with it. Nothing to protect you. We will not freeze or otherwise modify the ownership. That is not how US copyright works. If he had acquired this, Seth Green, and made IP based on it and then trademarked that IP, that subsequent derivative IP would also have IP on it. The derivative IP, right?

So if you had created a Marvel character, say, Spider-Man, and then you added the Green Goblin or you made a Spider-Man comic book, or let's say you made a Spider-Man doll, a character, like an action figure, perfect. you make the Spider-Man action figure, right? And then you make a black one, like what do they call the black version of Spider-Man, Spawn or something, or the evil version? There's always different Spider-Man. There's a dark Spider-Man who's Venom. There's like a whole bunch of these.

Venom spawn is a whole group of Spider-Man. Spider-Man. So you take those, and Spider-Girl actually. So you take all those, those would be derivative IP that would be owned by the person. So that's a question I have for Yuga Labs. If I would buy this Bort-Ape and then I said this board ape got cloned and I now have a hundred, other apes and I made them in all different styles and they went through, they got bit by a spider

and now I have a spider board ape, I would own that IP. There's no way to stop it. So can you make derivative works? It's question number one I have. But I think he's not SOL. I think this is Yuga Labs doing CYA rather than SOL. They're saying, we don't want to be involved in this.

But anyway, this person who stole it's going to jail. Yeah, they're not going to help. But this person who stole it, we'll go to jail. I mean, it's computer fraud and it's a felony. And it's grand theft because it's a large, expensive thing. Yeah, could be. And we have no idea, by the way, if the anonymous, if the Dark Wing 84 account is actually attached to the thief, but we do know that the purchase occurred really quickly. And yes, I mean, this sets up a show, you know,

and I think that's what Seth Green is saying in that tweet is he's like, look, this is going to set up a showdown between terms of use, terms of service, which is what Yuga Labs has. Yes. And actual existing copy, US copyright law, like you're saying. And derivative rights. and what when IP is conferred. But either way, with respect to a show that he's planning to launch, there's some entity out here who seems malign, who owns this asset, and he's got a whole show attached to it.

And so minimum, f***chow. Minimum fission show. And that's interesting. There's board ape beverages out there? That's interesting. I guess so. I just saw a picture of like a board ape on a can of soda. So I do think that they've got something here.

Here's another crazy question. Are there limits to the types of media I can create with my board ape? I'm thinking of a certain type of media. That's the number one user of bandwidth on the internet. That is a little bit adult in nature. Mm-hmm. Right. Could you have nudie apes?

Yeah. Could you have adult board apes? It would be, yeah, yeah, infused apes. So sorry. Yes. Here we go. It's been a long day. Long week.

So could you have enthusiastic apes doing adult pursuits in a graphic fashion? Because that would then mess up the IP for everybody else. So what if you made a murdering ape? What if you made a sociopathic ape? What if you made adult content with apes? Is that allowed or not in their terms of service? That's an interesting question for somebody to answer here. If you can make a TV show out of it because you quote unquote own the IP,

you can do whatever you want. But if you were licensing that, if you own the IP, but there was a terms of service associated with it for being part of the group. The group might have agreed no adult content or no. What about hate speech? What if you made a terrorist one? What if you made one and you turned it into Al-Qaeda's, you know, new mascot? And this is like you're going to start blowing buildings up and putting this on the side of bombs or something.

I mean, this is crazy stuff. A lot of ideas. I don't mean to, no. No, I'm not saying you're giving people ideas. I'm just saying like, oh, that's going to happen. You're right. I'm sorry, my mind just thinks having spent so much time in the IP space, my whole career, adult life, I just think about every single permutation here. The edge cases always have to do with violent content, adult content, racist content.

You basically just look at the terms of service, the things that are not allowed. What if somebody took an ape and had them do that? I mean, it's, it's, you know, again, not to belabor the point, but show. Okay. All right, everybody. Well, there's your Friday news, but Fridays wouldn't be Fridays if we didn't have OK Boomer with Rachel reporting. Let's tee up our OK Boomer. Everybody loves this segment.

They really do. It's OK Boomer. Why wouldn't we? It's producer Rachel out in the world finding phenomenally interesting people. And this week we have Jordan Singer, the founder of Diagram, which is evidently a software, a product that creates new ways to design. products and make design overall more accessible. Their first product was something called Automator, which is a plug-in for Figma.

All of these words make no sense to me, but it lets you custom drag and drop automations that turn time-sensitive tasks into one-click and presumably looks amazing because it's design-focused, which I love. I am a big fan of Figma. I am in Figma designs all the time and also in Vision. These are the two contemporaries, I believe. I was in a Figma looking at the deck for launch

fun for. Some designers are producing decks in them. I was in Figma for Inside.com, which is, we now have questions over there so you can post a story. Then we added YouTube videos, then we added Spotify and iTunes podcast, then we added questions just last week.

And next week, I just approved jobs. And then maybe in two weeks after that press releases. So I'm thinking of everything a business person would want to share and making it like a single place to share every business thing to get feedback on it or to promote it. So jobs is coming, but I basically go inside of Figma.

So this is a tool that enhances the Figma experience. Very cool. That's great. And they've raised $3 million by Ludlow Ventures. I know the Luddlo Ventures team, great team over there. So congratulations. And enjoy a conversation with Jordan Singer of Diagram. Okay, Boomer.

I understood the assignment. All right. Thank you so much, Jordan, for being on the segment of OK Boomer. I'm at Jordan on Twitter where I meet. most people who come on this show, but I actually didn't see your startup first. Your startup is diagram. Congrats on the recent raise. I saw a bunch of things you were building.

And then I checked out a website that you made that says, I build my ideas. And I thought that was really, really cool. And that's why I continued to follow you. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. So to start off, can you explain a little bit about the website? I build my ideas because I think that is super awesome.

And then can you also explain what diet? diagram is. Yeah, totally. So I build my ideas actually came about because I think it was when I was in college a few years ago. I was just building all of these side projects. And my whole thing had always been like building things that I wanted to exist in the world that I could, I thought could solve my own problems that I could then, you know, release and share and have people use and also solve their problems. And so it was all about kind of creating this umbrella personal brand, if you will. And bought I Build My Ideas.com and kind of ran with that.

And that's always been like my motto. And it even translates to Diagram where I also own the domain, we build our Ideas.com. And that redirects to Diagram.com. And Diagram is the startup I'm building with a small team of three at the moment where we're building AI product design tools inside of Figma. And I spent about four years working at Square on the cash app as a product designer on the design team. And that was an amazing

experience, you know, just getting insight into the way that the team designs and how they use design tools and me being a firsthand product designer myself and connecting these dots because I have a bit more of a technical background by nature. That's, you know, I got my start in code and did the computer science thing. And all these insights kind of led me to diagram and thinking about how to, introduce more design automation into the world. Because again, along this theme of I build my ideas, I saw myself doing a ton of manual, repetitive, cumbersome things in the design tool

and see a lot of really cool opportunity to build in that space. Very cool. I find that there's a lot of ideas, people out there, but not a lot of executors. So it's really incredible seeing how many people, especially how many people that inspire, that you've inspired just from your Twitter presence, you were kind of talking about personal brand.

I really like the tweets that you ask the question, like, what are we building today? Those are some of my favorite threads. If people are listening and do have Twitter, you have a great handle. It's just at J-S-N-G-R. You are one of my favorite Twitter accounts to follow. I'm not going to lie.

And Diagram is awesome. As somebody that really likes no-code tools, I really like you X and Y. I'm a huge fan of what you were doing. And I know your first product was Automator, which is a plugin for Figma. Can you explain a little bit about the main goal behind Automator? Yeah, totally.

I mean, back to my time at Square, a lot of what I did really for fun on the side was build these internal design tools for our team, where designers were doing things that were 20-minute tasks where they were just repetitively pointing and clicking and pressing a keyboard shortcut and repeating that thing over and over and over again. In my mind, a label goes off and I see the opportunity to write a little snippet of code to do that thing in two seconds when otherwise they would have been spending 20 minutes an hour on some of these really repetitive tasks. And so Automator was this really fascinating idea. It's one thing to be able to write Figma plugins on top of their developer ecosystem to write some code that can solve some of these automation things. but it's another to be able to introduce no code into the design tool

and allow anyone who doesn't know how to code to create their own design automations for the tedious stuff that they do inside of a tool like Figma. So automator is this no-code visual way to basically build your own Figma plugins that can automate all the crazy, you know, layer renaming, organizing your files, you name it inside of Figma. and it basically exposes the entire Figma API visually. So anyone who doesn't know how to code can create their own Figma plugins and automations

and save tons of time. Awesome. So I'm getting your timeline correct here. You were in college. First job out of college was Cash App. I'm so surprised that you never went to go work at Figma because right when you graduated college, it was a few years ago.

I know Figma has been rapidly growing. I know they were rapidly growing work when you graduated. why did you decide instead of focusing on a company that was like incredibly UXUI focused, why do you decide to go to Cash App? Yeah, you know, what's interesting again back to this like whole I build my idea theme. Like I love this, I love building things that I get to use myself. Yeah. And a consumer product like Cash app, you know, I had been using since the early days of Square

when it was called Square Cash and it was actually email based. And that's how you like sent money to people. over email. So just seeing the kind of evolution of that and being really inspired by Square is what ultimately, I think, led me down that path. At the time of graduating from school, Figma, I actually wasn't really on my radar, to be honest, you know, like, I think around that time in, you know, 2017-ish, Sketch was still kind of predominantly the main product design tool that a lot of teams were using. And interestingly enough, I kind of helped to lead that effort to migrate from sketch over to Figma within Square. And yeah, I mean, my coworker's always joked. Like, are you

splitting your time between Figma and Kachap at the same time? Because I was building so many things within Figma. But they're an amazing team and really grateful to have their support as well with diagram and all the things that we're building. Yeah. So I said, like, I think in the beginning of the episode, I said congrats on that. Ray is you raised a $3 million seed round led by the wonderful Ludlow Ventures. Other investors I saw over there, Figma, Figma was one of them, right? Yes, totally. And so cool.

Thank you. Yeah, and just really grateful to have their support. They're such an amazing team and have been just a huge fan ever since the migration of Figma within Square and the developer ecosystem and all the amazing things they've empowered, you know, people like me building companies to build on top. but their platform is just, it's really tremendous. I love that.

The first program I ever used was in school and it was Adobe XD. And I remember when I found Figma, it was like a life-changing experience because if you've ever had like Photoshop experience before, I actually think it's the best tool to learn after Photoshop because Photoshop is a little convoluted as so many buttons and you don't, there's no innate understanding of how to use Photoshop. Like, I'm sure it's gotten better since when I started in like high school.

I honestly haven't touched Photoshop in a while. But when I was first starting out, you're like, what the heck do I do with this? You go over to Figma after you know Photoshop, you're like, oh my gosh. Like it's so, you know exactly what you're supposed to be doing right away. And I think that's such a good tale for a product. Totally. I mean, you know, it's so fascinating because the evolution of specifically product design tools has been that we were actually designing user interfaces in Photoshop for the longest time.

Oh my gosh. No. Which is ironic because, you know, Photoshop was made for photo ads. and not to design, you know, apps and websites. But I think that is actually a really fascinating, you know, time around this whole schimorphic era where Photoshop has all these crazy effects and things like that. And so we were seeing way more textures and gradients and things like that years ago in

design. And as things shifted a bit more flat, you know, we saw the evolution of sketch. And finally, for the first time, really a design tool dedicated. to designing apps and websites. And then Figma came along with their breakthrough to, you know, make design collaborative and get your entire team inside of a design tool. And since then it's, you know, been, for me, I've just been a huge Figma fan. That's all.

I love how you said flat because that's always how I describe sometimes when I see like Apple interfaces, which is obviously like if you're into product design or anything like that, Apple is Steve Jobs in particular. That era of Apple is like the be all end all. I'm sure you love Steve Jobs just as much as much as I do. But the flat nature of what Apple pioneered in the product world, I feel like Figma does so well at replicating another app that is just beautiful in that same note is Airbnb where you wouldn't have an,

I just can't imagine building an app like that on something that wasn't Figma. Yeah, totally. I mean, Apple is a huge design influence to the entire industry. And so when they shifted to Flat in 2013 with the introduction of iOS 7, everything else followed because, you know, when you've got this schemorphic app that has all these patterns and textures, it looked really out of place inside of that new flat system that Apple came out with. And so they really established the trends. And Flat has stuck around for a while.

And I think we're just now starting to see this slight turning point back towards introducing, you know, gradients and more like, you know, layering inside of design. I totally agree. I see gradients everywhere now, and I don't know if I like them. I don't know yet. I almost made a podcast cover for my own podcast a few years ago with a gradient that was made in Figma. And I was like, I don't know. But it's interesting that Figma hasn't tried or has not yet, like that your product does not yet exist. Automator, I'm talking about, does not yet exist within Figma. Because I think in every other area of tech, we have this automation, right? If you're looking at like coding in general, maybe you're on like SQL, even in any,

Excel, you have this like automation that takes place. Whereas in like the design world, it's a lot of doing the same thing over and over again. Are there any other areas within design besides automation that you think we could be focusing more on that would make it a more accessible field? Yeah, you know, I think one of the key reasons why diagram to this day is really even possible in some of these AI-oriented things that we're exploring in the intersection of like product design and AI really goes back to the evolution of design systems. And if you think about it, you know, I got to see this certainly at Square. You know, we established this really incredibly robust design system, which lays out all the components and pieces that your app uses for

your designers to pull from. So they're being really consistent with every designer's using the same thing and things aren't out of whack. And it's all very, very much looks and feels the same across the entire app, no matter who designed it. I think that the evolution of design systems is kind of what's empowering some of this automation stuff. And certainly what I saw my pattern recognition pick up on as a designer was that I was going to our design system and pulling the pieces that I needed when I was designing something rather than designing something from scratch every time.

And so when you think about this kind of shift to more systematic and pattern-based design by nature. I think you're you're opening yourself up to the opportunity to automate a lot of what you see and not to say that it's going to completely replace designers as a whole, but certainly be that more assistive kind of companion as you're designing to make suggestions and even inspire you on ideas that you hadn't had previously. So design systems is certainly like at the core of what's empowering a lot of, you know, the stuff that we're looking at. at building a diagram. That's awesome.

So I think the three areas that we could always focus more than product are like efficiency, usability and accessibility. So diagram is obviously killing, killing that in that space. And you talked a little bit, you just mentioned how we're not going to replace designers. You know, that's not, that probably won't be happening anytime soon, let's hope. But I think that's really funny because we were chatting the other day. I tweeted something where I was like, girls only want one thing. and honestly, it's disgusting dolly to access.

As like that, that was the thing that all the girls want. And then you and I stare talking about Dolly 2 access? Do you think Dolly 2, and you can explain, I guess, to start off what Dolly 2 is, but do you think that has the foundation to replace designers in the future? You know, what I look at it as, and I think Open AI has done an amazing job, and it's another reason why diagram can even exist as they expose the power of these incredible models that they have all this data trained upon in the power of these API endpoints that I can use who doesn't frankly have that crazy AI or ML background.

And so seeing things like GPT3 was really inspiring and some of what they've done with their codex model that actually outputs code and how that's manifested inside of the code editor with GitHub co-pilot and it's effectively auto-complete for code. that's really inspiring for what we're doing and thinking about how we can translate some of those experiences and how it applies to design. But Dolly too certainly has been so fascinating as I think they've done a really great job of giving people access and the ability to share on social all the crazy things that you can tell it and just how amazing it is at outputting lots of different options and really photorealistic, you know, generative art and illustrations.

photos that look like they were, they're real. And it's just really, I think, capturing our imagination in ways that we only used to be able to visualize those, those crazy thoughts in our minds and now to be able to see this AI actually output those things and be able to share it and react to it and truly like visualize those things, I think is a breakthrough. And so what's happening with Dolly is so fascinating because it's just, you know, really inspiring around seeing AI make its way into design and art and things like that, which I think is a great use case. And so, I've been having a lot of fun with it. And, uh, you know, I know a lot of people are trying to get their hands on it. Oh, I am. I mean, I'm loving it. It's so funny that you mentioned GPT3,

because the first time I ever saw it was when I was in college and I had a friend that automated an entire essay that we needed to write for school with it. And it was, it wasn't, you could tell, you could tell a little bit. But I was like, this is incredible. This control. totally wipe out and just, it first off increased like the levels of kids cheating in school. Like this is this crazy. But also it can wipe out like specific fields. You know what I mean that maybe need to write research papers

or white papers on certain information. As long as you're not feeding it like extremely messy, dirty data, it would produce something that's really cool. And I wonder how far it's going to be until I can write. For example, like I'm really looking for another personal CRM right now. I use Notion.

But I want a CRM that does a bunch of really like specific things to my life. And I'm like, at what point am I going to have a Dolly 2, a GPT3 style tool where I can just type in, I want this type of app to do these specific things and for it to generate that for me. Like, how far away are we from that? Yeah, I don't think we're far off at all. And honestly, like, I know a lot of really smart people who are working towards some of those problems, including us in the product design space, hoping to make design way more accessible to anyone so that if you have an idea and find Figma to be,

intimidating and you're staring at a blank canvas and don't really know how to visualize the idea for an app or a website that you have in your head. You know, hopefully we can make that way more accessible to people. And so that's what we're working towards. And I think, again, this idea of what Open AI is doing and just making these really powerful models, like in the case of GPT3, this really powerful language model that can take natural language input. You can train it.

It can actually output a response. We've done some really fun things with a diagram that we're exploring that used GPT3. And so the ecosystem that they're building and just making AI and ML way more accessible is another breakthrough that we're seeing. Yeah, it's so cool. I love that that was my first experience with machine learning. In general, it's impacted me a ton. I'm excited to see what future products that you guys use.

But on the Dolly 2 side, I can see the GPT3 heavy practical use case. what do you think a practical use case is for Dolly 2? What are people going to be able to use this for in the future besides just having, like, I don't know, cowboys riding dolphins? Yeah, you know, I think as far as generative art is concerned, it's one thing as a really fascinating, you know, opportunity just to visualize, you know, your crazy ideas. And I think a lot of what we're seeing right now is mostly feeding prompts for fun

just to see what it can output. But over time, though, I do imagine that it starts to more practically make its way and embed itself, even in something like Figma and things we're exploring where it can actually, you know, for example, if you're designing an app and you have placeholders for where people's avatars might go, you could use Dolly and their API in the future to like automatically generate random avatars of people, you know, just as an example. I think there's so many use cases. And that's the cool thing about putting an API out there

is just you don't know half the things that people will come up with. But I imagine that people will do really crazy things with it. What do you think the overall impact of AI in product design, and Figma and other user interfaces is for the long run? Yeah, I mean, I think we're at a point now where, again, kind of with this development of these really robust design systems,

an amazing developer ecosystem with Figma and the power of these amazing AI and ML models at our fingertips with Open AI. All those things combined. I do see a lot of room to start thinking about almost like a GitHub co-pilot-esque code autocomplete experience making its way into Figma, where you do have this companion that maybe it's not entirely designing for you, but it's taking some of what you've you know, started to put together connecting the dots, you know, taking context and drawing patterns and able to output iterations of what you've already started and kind of take you that next, you know, 10, 20, 30 percent of the way there. And then you can, of course, take that output and continue to adjust it further. And I think also for, you know, thinking about how non-designers really

find Figma sometimes quite intimidating, it's something to, there's something really to be said about the opportunity to take an idea that's in your head. And if you can imagine just being able to describe that design in words and have it output on the canvas and visualize and be able to take that thing and really make it your own, I think there's a ton of opportunity there. And so we're exploring a lot of different areas, whether it's related to copywriting in user interfaces and the copy that's on apps and websites to designing for you and being that, know, kind of creative AI companion.

So there's a lot of areas that we're exploring, and I think that it's just such an untapped space that we're really excited to just be really experimental and explore. I love that you keep mentioning the GitHub's co-pilot, which is, like you said, auto-complete for code. Because I was thinking about that the other day, where I was like that the tagline first off, autocomplete for code.

I think that sounds really good. but I want to see a grammarly for Figma where, so I saw a picture of, I believe actually it was after I said how much I love them, but the Airbnb logo has some like aesthetic mistakes to it where things aren't symmetrical and things like that. I would love to see somebody create like a grammarly style platform for Figma where maybe there's like it indicates where things aren't centered correctly, where things aren't smoothed out, where maybe it should be. So if you know anybody or maybe if you guys are doing that, you know, just saying putting a, putting a idea out there. Grammarly for Figma. Yeah. Won't rule that out in the future.

But, you know, certainly like that's the thing in design, you know, back to these design systems. Often it's, it's in a designer's best interest to kind of break away from these, these systems and really try to, you know, think about how they could adjust things and change things to make it work for their particular design. And so there are some of these, you know, kind of linters, if you will, when you run them, they say like, hey, this style is detached and doesn't belong in the system or whatever the case might be. But, but, yeah, lots of, lots of fascinating stuff there. I'll keep that one in mind. How do you stay so inspired to build? Because obviously, this isn't, like I said, if you go to like your website, I build my ideas one, you're not just working on diagram. you know, like, so much that you're working on.

Where does this inspiration and motivation come from? Yeah, you know, I think it really goes back to, like, I love to work on things that I get to use myself and I personally want to see in the world. So there's a, I think, a really consistent pattern of all the products that I've put out there from the things we're building a diagram to, you know, airport, which was this Tesla app store, to Little Wallet, which was.

an open source, you know, crypto wallet app. Like, these are just things that I wanted for myself. And I, you know, I see the opportunity to just build things and design things. And I love that process so much. And just putting things out there and allowing other people to use it and solve their problems at the same time and get their feedback and see the excitement from them using it. Like that's what really keeps me going. And so, you know, it's a number of things.

but really it boils down to, I also just frankly, selfishly love to get to use the things that we build for myself. And so in a lot of ways, it's inspiring. I am sure people have like so many conflicting opinions about this, but I actually love talking to founders who are the users of their product. And I know sometimes that's difficult because it's difficult to step away and see an outside perspective,

but I think it's so awesome that you were able to use everything that you build in your day-to-day. and I would love to see more people in the design space in particular branch off into this. There are so many amazing designers that I follow that I would love to see do what you are doing. Like, for example, one of them, I don't even think he actually is product design, but his name is Jack. He just visualized value this account that has just really minimalistic, like graphics paired with quotes.

And it's almost like the visual version of what Jason really pushes on. all the producers where he's like, take these really complex problems and say them in the most simplest way possible. And Jack is able to do that in design where it's the most simple design possible to convey a specific message. He's somebody that I would love to see, like, branch over into the product design space. I'd be interested to see what he would come up with in your side of things. Is there anybody that you really look up to in the design space doesn't have to be product, but that you just think is really on top of it? Yeah, you know, one of my absolute favorites, probably favorite Twitter follow is a friend Joey Banks who currently works at Twitter.

And he's an amazing contributor to the design community as a whole. What he does is put together these really complex design kits like the entirety almost of iOS as a UI kit for any designer to use that has over 100,000 downloads on Figma. Like he's an amazing contributor to to the design community. And he always puts out fun little teasers and things like that on Twitter, kind of like my style. And, you know, people like that, I just really enjoy, like, those that put in so much time and effort and don't expect necessarily a whole lot

in return and just do it because they love, they just love to do it. Like, those are the, those are some of my favorite follows. So Joey, for sure. That's, I love, I absolutely love his page. One of the reasons why, like, both of your pages is because you guys both add the little video components. And I found that in design, not, I love static things. Like, don't get me wrong.

But when you're doing something on Figma, in particular, seeing how it's done is oftentimes like 10 times more impressive and interesting than just seeing the final output. And I really wish, going back to Steve Jobs, that this style of like videotaping when you're designing in like a very short format, not like the whole thing, obviously, but seeing him design like just, or whoever was designing the products at the time. seeing like them create maybe many short videos. That would be cool to see actually, you know,

they have those entire movies for Disney, where they talk about like the authors and the illustrators that write Disney movies. That would be cool for like the top people that made like all the really legacy UXUI beautiful apps, like even down to like Robin Hood, Airbnb like I mentioned, maybe like the App Store or something like that.

Yeah, I totally agree. It's fun. Sometimes people are, record these time lapses of them just working in Figma. Yeah. You get to see the really rough, raw process and all the iteration that happens and how they go, they diverge and converge and just repeat that process until they find something that they like and they think works.

And the design process is really messy. And so anytime you get a glimpse behind the scenes, I agree, it's super fun. It is. It's super, it's super awesome. And I love, um, Joby is really cool too, not just with looking at, uh, you actually XUI, but I know that on his Twitter, he focuses a lot on looking at old products, like actual physical displays and things like that, which is great. Some of my favorite things that you focus on, though, are buttons.

You do a lot of different things with buttons and maybe like even like the small. I saw one thing that I thought was just really cool when you posted a tweet and it was like opposite day and it was the Uber logo in pink and the Lyft logo and black like they were switched. How would you know as a designer or how do you find inspiration in what? to pinpoint out and to fix or redesign. Yeah, I mean, it really comes in the form of just lots of iteration. Like, I think if you see a lot of times what ends up happening in these, in these Figma files that designers are designing in,

it's pretty common to have a scrapped page where you've just got a huge dump of all the iterations that you've done. And you're just saving them as little timestamps for a design at a, given time to reference back to perhaps. And so it really, you start to just truly refine through lots of iteration and duplicating what you have. If you, something doesn't feel quite right about it and kind of tweak a few things and take that thing and tweak it a little more. And just that process of refinement is I think really where, you know, you sharpen your design and get to a point where you're happy with it. But it's, you know, design is just such an iterative process and also very

messy at the same time. And it's, it's a great feeling when you know that you landed on, you know, the final version, because a lot of times it can take quite a while to get there. It's so funny how you call it messy because everything that you do, I find a design style to be very clean. So really awesome, you can say the process of it's messy at least because you make it look easy. Thank you so much for coming on. And again, congrats on that $3 million seed round. I keep looking at the people. Like, I have to like shot you out a little bit. Like you have some crazy freaking investors on here. Like we mentioned Figma, shrug capitals on here,

not boring capital, absolutely love. Like investors from companies that operate at meta, blocks, drive, GitHub, party around, Gumroad, Bullywork, and Italic. Like, you are just killing it. Super excited to see what you do in the future. Where can people find you in Diagram if they want to check you out?

Yeah. And thanks so much for having me. You can find Diagram at Diagram on Twitter and Diagram.com. and you can find my personal website, I Build My Ideas.com and on Twitter at J-S-N-G-R. That's crazy how you've got Diagram.com. So congratulations. Jason's going to love to hear that.

He always talks about how hard he is to get those simple URLs and ad diagram. Wow. Incredible. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jordan. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.