This Week in Startups - DAO breakdown with Orange DAO's Ben Huh + Amazon's $11B NFL deal with Lon Harris | E1567

Episode Date: September 23, 2022

(0:00) J+M tee up today's segments! (2:57) J+M intro Ben Huh and discuss his background and why he helped start Orange DAO (15:21) OpenPhone - Get an extra 20% off any plan for your first 6 months at https://openphone.com/twist  (16:51) Understanding how DAOs handle distributions, more DAO mechanics (26:06) Odoo - Get your first app free and a $1000 credit at https://odoo.com/twist (27:20) People taking advantage of business processes left up to interpretation, how blockchain helps solve this, standardizing DAOs (36:58) Lemon.io - Get 15% off your first 4 weeks of developer time at https://Lemon.io/twist (38:22) Understanding trustworthiness, downside protections, will the US fall behind in crypto? (48:32) J+M welcome Lon Harris! (56:13) Amazon's $11B TNF deal (1:06:20) House of the Dragon doing huge numbers for HBO, Rings of Power (1:17:06) Andor, Disney+'s new Star Wars show (1:24:02) Disney losing goodwill with superfans, where to put the next Disney park Check out Orange DAO: https://www.orangedao.xyz Check out Origami: https://joinorigami.com FOLLOW Ben: https://twitter.com/benhuh FOLLOW Lon: https://twitter.com/lons FOLLOW Jason: https://linktr.ee/calacanis FOLLOW Molly: https://twitter.com/mollywood

All right, everybody, it is Thursday. That means this week in streaming with lawn. Yes, and that is not all. We also have a great interview with Ben Ha of Orange Dow, which we talked about on our crypto roundtable, and we had more questions, and Ben was happy to oblige. Yeah, this is really interesting. You know, I have told everybody multiple times that Dow is the most fascinating of Web3 concepts, ideas that I like, NFTs comes after that.

And, you know, I think Ben is trying to, uh, He emailed me right after this interview with his people. They're trying to get J-Cal to do a Dow. So I think there's a lot of interesting things he unpacks here. He's very honest about their advantage and why they're doing this. It's a really, really interesting interview. If you're in startups or capital allocation, this could be the future of startup funding on a global basis. And we must in the United States get ahead of this.

So this is an area where I am demanding the SEC and everybody get their act together to make DAWS legal and regulated in the United States before we lose this to Switzerland or Singapore. Very important. Yeah, it's a really good conversation and hopefully you will come up because you have to understand it. Even if you are skeptical right now, even if it's early, you need to understand this because the people who understand it make all the money in the early days. So pay attention.

And then yes, we're going to have a blast with Lon Harris to talk about Thursday night. Football, House of the Dragons, insane numbers. We got a whole plan for Disney in there. And which city should Disney? And the challenge Chapic. He's challenged right now. Challenge Chapic. Which city should he put a third Disney in?

Let's get those Disney prices under $100. BS that families have to pay three grand to go to Disney. This is absurd. It's going to be a great show. Stick with us. This week in Startups is brought to you by Open Phone. As a startup founder, a lot of money. mistakes are easy to roll back, but using your personal cell phone number as your company number

isn't one of them. Open Phone makes it easy to get business phone numbers for you and your team, right on top of your existing devices. Visit openphone.com slash twist to get 20% off your first six months. Odo is a fully customizable and fully integrated suite of business apps that lets you build and scale your stack as you build and scale your business. Your first app is free forever, and right now O-Doo is offering $1,000 off your first implementation pack at Odu.com slash twist. That's ODO.com slash twist. And lemon.io. Need to speed up your product development without draining your budget.

Hire vetted engineers from Europe at lemon.io. Go to lemon.com slash twist to get 15% off the first four weeks. Okay. Thursday. We almost made it to the end of the week. We're getting normal. Last week, on the crypto roundtable, we've been talking about DAUs. These are decentralized autonomous organizations.

It's a crypto thing. Nobody really can define what these are. Outside of saying it's a discord, there's some voting mechanism, a bunch of people give their crypto. They then share in some prizes, I guess, or some equity. But I've been fascinated by DOS. I think you have, too. Yeah, absolutely. Sure.

I just like the way you said that you get prizes that made me think of Chuckie cheese. Sure. I mean, depending on your voting stake, you could either get some smarties or a giant Pokemon stuffy. It's kind of like ticket on your podcast. What is that ski ball when you throw the balls up and try to get in? I love ski ball. So it's kind of like getting the tickets there.

You know, it's kind of like a reward. So sometimes it seems like there's NFT communities for this, et cetera. It's a way for crypto people to geek out. And then there's venture funds. Right, which we do. We're in the process of raising launch fund four. I did our first pitch last week for launch fund four. Man, did that go well?

Yeah. Hundreds of people showed up. And, yeah, a lot of people made requests. It's awesome. And we're doing a version of decentralized, both fundraising and investing, because of the raising in public and the syndicate model. Sure. So maybe a short leap to a Dow.

I think a Dow takes a lot of inspiration from the concept of a syndicate at SPV. People have to organize together as a group to invest in the company. So we saw this orange Dow come up. We've been talking, we talked about it twice on the program so far. Had a lot of questions. So we were like, well, we know the guy who's starting this. We wanted to get him on the program and have him explain it himself.

And he said yes. So we're very excited, actually. Spoiler alert. We got Ben Ha, who I believe is currently the, there he is, CEO and founder of origami. The creator of ICAN has Cheeseburger. I wonder at which point you want to just like live that down and not have us bring it up all the time.

I mean, it's awesome. Well, yeah, well, that's actually, I like that. So technically the Godfather of the company behind ICAN has Cheesburger, Eric Takagawa was one of the co-founders. He was also in crypto, by the way. So there's a theme here. A bunch of two media guys transitioning over to crypto, reliving our youth. So you joined Wycombinator in 2016, came out of Y Combinator and founded social construct to invent new processes and technologies to assemble high quality apartment buildings faster and cheaper.

And then in 2021, help start and raise this Orange Fund, which is the venture investing partner of Orange Dow. So yeah, we talked about Orange Dow. You got on the tweeters and we're like, I think I can do a better job explaining this. And we said, yes, please. All right. So, looking from the outside of it. What did we get wrong? Well, yeah, I mean, let's just start with, let's just start there. Like, so we understand raising a fund.

Yeah. To specifically target Y Combinator companies. It's a great pool of companies. You're an alumni. And let's face it, many people have done this. There was a funder's club or something that was a bunch of YC grads. A bunch of people have had this concept of doing funds, syndicates, to go out, you know, whether they were Uber, alumni, YC alumni,

tech stars, alumni, etc. You get some advantage. You understand the programs. You know, maybe you can front run the market or just in some way leverage your knowledge of it. Great. Explain what you're doing here. Like, why add a Dow to this tried and true fund strategy?

So the origin of Orange Fund came from a crypto WhatsApp group that a group of us were running. So it's NFTs and regular crypto and things like that. And in order to create an organization where we can all have some say and control over its outcome, we said, hey, let's create a doubt. Let's create a more democratic institution. It's not purely democratic. It is tokenized voting and things like that.

That organization will help a venture fund generate better returns. And then we'll have a venture fund that gives all of its carry to the Dow. Right. And so the GPs, there's a management fee. We take the management fee to run the fund and the organization. but all of the upside gets basically tokenized in the form of the Dow. And now we can tell the Dow,

hey, if you want to participate, here are the different teams and different activities you can do. You can earn tokens by doing it. And so please help us with two things. One, well, I guess three. One, deal flow. Help us generate deals.

Two, provide some expertise, screening these companies and giving us some notes. And then three, support our companies as a network when they need help. And so that was really the fundamental genesis of all of this.

There's nothing really deeply strategic about it. It was, we have a community already. Web 3 is different. We have to think differently. YC's not doing it. So why don't we create a community that can do that? And this often happens at YC where they're a little bit later to the game because they're a much bigger organization now. Well, and they also have a lot of work to do just running the program, which is a ton of work. It's incredibly a lot of work. And they also need to maintain, and people can debate this.

Obviously, it's a hot-button issue. But they need to maintain at least some appearance that they're not front running the market and that when you come to Demo Day, you have an equal shot at the companies as everybody else. We all know that's not exactly true. But they do need to have people come to Demo Day and invest in the companies, even if the top 20, you know, get taken out before Demo Day. And you were right in the last call. We do have an advantage in that we are alumni that we can actually attend Alumni Dema Day, which occurs before the actual event does. Right. Right. So we do have a little bit of incentive. It's just, it's not enough to make a deal in that time, but we do get a little bit more heads up. Do the, do the,

companies in the current YC class, are they put on Bookface immediately when they sign up in week one? Or do they get put on Bookface on day, you know, week 13 or whatever the end week is, the weekend? They get a choice of launching. So during the batch, there will be launch Bookface, which is a company is launching on Bookface with the community announcing their company and their product. Some wait till Dema Day. Some just never do it at all. So you have access to that, or all of your Dow members do.

So you will get access to these companies in week zero through. Is it a 12-week program still? 10 weeks. 10 weeks. So you might get access to the company's weeks. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. That's a major advantage. Yeah, we certainly keep our ears to the ground and make sure we understand who's doing what and why.

Because we do often see pivots along the way. And those are the ones that we're really interested in as well. So I have a question about the voting structure and why it's, Like, why is it necessary to have this democratic structure where everyone can vote? I feel awkward asking that question. But at the same time, like, democracy can bring some chaos, which is why we've abstracted it with representative democracy and government and also in companies with, like, leadership. So I wonder, like, what is the benefit?

Why would we need democracy? Believe me, the irony is not lost. I mean, it's never been a democratic process in venture investing at its best. It's always been, you know, so number of indiscences. Yeah. It is also not a democratic process at all. So the way it's structured is that the fund is independent. There's this relationship between the carry and the additional work that that provides.

But the final decision is to like who gets investments in RAA is left up to the three GPs, myself and two other partners. And so, you know, we do have our regular, you know, fist and cuff's matches of like, are you sure you want to invest in this, huh? you know, those moments at the debate. So we don't run by consensus. Okay, but they can go find companies and then present them to you. And then the three of you vote and I'm just curious in your venture fund, what's the structure? If somebody feels strongly about it and two people don't go ahead and do it or two out of three or you're figuring out of three. It's two and three.

Okay. Usually we generally run making sure somebody is passionate about it. Somebody has to stand up and say, I really like this company. I won't support it. Okay, so then, but going back to the voting structure of the Dow, what is that, how is it better? Like, how does it generate better deal flow and better outcomes than, say, a syndicate? The Dow governs its own treasury. The limited partners of the fund, they exist inside the fund, those funds are completely segregated from the Dow.

So the Dow cares about what's in our multi-sig or our treasury and what can we do with it. And so what they're doing is that they're actually funding programs. So we, about a month and a half ago, the Dow, completely independently of the fund, launched a program called Orange Fellows. And it's designed to be 10 weeks. We give you $25,000, virtually no strings attached, before you start a company. And we say, spend 10 weeks learning about Web 3 in the Dow with us, like make a transition from your entrepreneurial self into the crypto world,

because you need a little bit of time to do that. And we funded a class of 10 people. And that came entirely from the Dow. a program manager stepped up, who is a former YC founder named James Sinka, and now that program's live. That was a completely bottoms up thing. It is our way of recycling the money into the Dow

so that we can continue to fund more entrepreneurs. And so how do you then distribute? Let's say you've got, I think you said you have 1,000 people or more in the Dow. Yeah, we have 1,000 people in there. Let's say 900 of them never do anything. Or they're just kind of hanging and giving some comments from the rafters, but they're not actually doing

noticeable work, but there's 100 who are doing a bunch of work. Okay, you hit your Airbnb, hit your Uber, whatever, you know, you hit Flexport, and it returns, let's just pick a number, $100 million in carry, you got a hundred people over there, you're the three GPs. How much of it do you the three GPs get? And then, and let's just assume you have 20% carry, and that's why you got this, you know, and you own 10% of the company, whatever. So we do the math, 100 million comes in.

How do you pick who gets what? Yeah, so it depends on the number of tokens you hold. Now, to be honest, at this point in the legal evolution of DAOs, there is no way to get a distribution from those funds. So even the Treasury of the Dow received $100 million because we did blowout numbers on the fund, that money cannot be directly given to members like a dividend. So that mechanism doesn't exist. But what it does do is your tokens govern how we spend that money for the next cycle,

or for the next round of companies and things like that. And so the way Orange Dow was developed was that it was designed as an endowment for entrepreneurship. So when you look at venture capital today and see 80% of the capital going back to the LPs, that money is not staying in the entrepreneurial ecosystem. That's going back to the financial ecosystem. We said if we can actually take the carry and start creating a fund for entrepreneurs that fund entrepreneurship and the transition to it, we think that we can have a much better impact because we're cycling 100% of the money,

not just carry. Oh, wow. So you're going to recycle everything. So then when is there ever going to be a payout for the people who have the tokens? Or the tokens will just go up in value as a proxy to this money? So right now, the assumption is the tokens will represent the control over the asset, not the distribution of the asset, until the law has changed and we can find a legal way to do it. That's the mechanism that we're using.

And so now that you can actually direct these funds, you know, you can either create a program for you to run, you can actually have the Dow invent or invest in a public goods program, something like that. And so there's a lot of working capital that we want to forward into this program. We don't necessarily want to take dividends out now. Besides, at any early stage technology venture, why would you take out money anyway? You would also always want to recycle that into the growth part of the business. Interesting. It sounds like you're saying there may never be, right?

Is this ultimately not a profit-making enterprise? It is a profit-making enterprise. It is a profit-making enterprise. It's just not totally clear how you can get the profits? Not yet. There are mechanisms. There are legal structures in the United States that allow you to do that. We're kind of waiting for them to actually kind of shake out

to make sure that we can actually use them the right way. On the program today is Dorena Kulia. She is the founder of Open Phone. Welcome to the show, Dorena. Thank you so much, Jason. Great to be here. You know, I've read the ads a couple times here. It seems like you're charging too little for this product.

It's $10 a month per number. How are you able to do this so affordably? $120 a year, $150 a year, $150 a year? year per person is nothing. So we are a very self-served product, which is why many of our competitors offer much more expensive tiers, is that they rely on like a customer success rep or someone help you out to set things up. We are very self-served. Now, we do have customer success managers who are amazing. A lot of our customers are founders and startups. They like things to just work without instructions without. They'll read the manual. They'll watch the videos. They don't want to talk to a

human. They just want to set it up and go. And you made the product so simple. Absolutely. That's where the cost savings comes. And you don't have to have a sales team going out there selling it. And you know, the other big thing is that the way we also grow and I think it, you know, the way we get a lot of customers is that we have very strong word of mouth and people like tell others about us. And I mean, all of that contributes. Our business model kind of makes sense. It makes sense for us to be able to offer it at a very good price. All right, everybody. Here's your CTA, the old call to action. Twist listeners, 20% off any plan for your first six months. Just sign a up at openphone.com slash twist. And if you got an existing number, no problem. They'll put it right over.

Openphone.com slash twist. O-P-E-H-O-N-P-H-O-N-E dot com slash twist today for 20% off. Yeah, this makes sense to me because people right now can do it for the affiliation, the fun, the joy of being part of the ecosystem. They're not putting in that much work. This is not a full-time job. They're not getting a salary. But when the law becomes more clear, And if this security, if it winds up being a security right now, it's just tokens, but if they become worth something, then I guess the Dow could say, you know what, we're sitting on 250 million. We would like to distribute 10% a year and invest 20% a year. So 30% is going to go back into the ecosystem. And so every year, you know, whatever it is, $50 million is going to go to our top participants in the Dow.

And another 50 million is going to go to companies. And we think that becomes an evergreen fund. We never have to have LPs again. exactly exactly I kind of get it. So this first turn of the wheel is to fund it in fact. Yeah.

First prank will be to create a nest egg and that's actually kind of brilliant, Ben, because it will become clearer how to distribute these shares in his DAWS eventually. Exactly. I have another super basic question.

Like you mentioned that the DAO decided to create a program and, you know, give $25,000 to these Web3 entrepreneurs. Where this is, again, I'm just going to make myself sound stupid it on behalf of the audience and myself. Where does that $25,000 come from? Does the Dow have, it's oh, you said they have a treasury,

how does the Dow get money compared to how the fund gets money and is it the same money? Yeah. So there's actually two pools of capital here. One is a $50 million series seed and a venture fund. That's the Orange Fund itself. There's an additional $30 million committed over four to five years of the Dow from both Al-Garand and NIR. And they're actually financing the Dow's operations until the

carry from the fund materializes to actually cover some of the expenses. So in total, that's $80 million that we have control over. And then it is separate in those two pots. Like if you as the as orange funds, we can't cross those pots. No crossing the streams. Yeah. That's right. So the fellows come out of the near Nogran fund. Right? Because again, we're like pumping, you know, entrepreneurs into their ecosystem and that's what they love, right?

They want us to build the top of their blockchain because one outside of turn pays for all of this. So explain who those people are, because I have heard about this before. A lot of people in crypto had huge raises. They did offerings, and all of a sudden they were sitting on $100 million or a billion in some foundation in Panama or on a BVI, wherever. And they need to use that money to jumpstart their ecosystem. In other words, to get their platforms working.

And so they love the idea of getting entrepreneurs to build on their platforms. So like Intel or, you know, remember Google did Google Glass Fund with Injosa and a bunch of other people. They put $100 million. They made that famous photo of the three of them were going Google Glass looking ridiculous. Cut that in a post if you will. It's a great photo. But sometimes platforms will create a venture fund in order to. So this Al-Gurant, am I Al-Garand? So that's a blockchain for- That's a layer one. That's right. Yeah. So they have money sitting there. They gave it to you so you can jumpstart the ecosystem. That's right. Well, we're one of the many partners that they're working with a jump start ecosystem.

So a lot of them have, like, grant programs. So, like, if you use the technology and if you want to apply for, like, a 10-K grant, you can totally do that directly. But obviously, that has overhead. And also, there's a selection problem here, which is you want to fund entrepreneurs who are likely to build something. And so a alumni group of YC, like us, makes a lot of sense there, right? Because proven history of actually building something and, you know, likelihood of actually raising capital, good support structure, all of the above. if you could wave a magic wand and make the legal system and the Dow system crystal clear how it works and I guess there are some countries outside the United States that do have basically, I want to say a free for all, but incredibly permissive or anything goes, like experiment as you will, what country has that like most experimental?

And did you consider just saying, hey, screw it, we're going to be in Singapore or the ZER, was it the Zerg or something? Did you consider those? Yeah. So there are many major systems right now. there is a bit of a competition out there for like the jurisdictions that will be more doubt friendly. But a lot of them actually are doing this so that they can attract businesses like a registration business like Delaware LLCs of the world. Right. So like we're actually talking to Colorado, the state of Colorado to actually use a co-op mechanism.

That is actually exempt from some of the security legislation. So this is happening domestically. We're also talking to Marshall Islands where a lot of the Fortune 500 shipping companies are registered. and so there's a non-profit way of actually building a down. And everybody should not figure out, like, what is the right way and the financially appropriate way for these dows to exist? The U.S. is just really slow. Right?

It's just by the way in Switzerland. I said, I'm like, Zorg. What's a Zerg? Zorg was pro-taught. It was like a one of the... Starcraft. Oh, look at you. And then Zor was like another alien race in a sci-fi movie, but...

Is he talking about... Is he talking about one of those floating sovereign island things? What does it? Kind of what Zug is, actually, Molly. It's like an area in Switzerland where they said cryptos can do whatever. But which, do you said which jurisdiction in the United States is the most pervasive? Colorado is actually, well, so it's not permissive, but it's interesting, right?

Because it can actually solve the entire security stack. Colorado co-ops and Marshall Islands based on the Pacific. Yeah. Those are interesting to us. Obviously, there's your Delaware LLCs and those are fine as well, in most cases. The Nodies are stuck on this question. and I think it's somewhat reasonable to ask what happens if there is no legal way

to distribute funds. I mean, I think it seems like, I will stipulate, it seems like a very safe assumption. Someone's going to figure out how you can distribute funds. Like, they exist. There's like, you know, their type of something.

Do you have to pay taxes somewhere? You have to pay taxes somewhere. For no other reason than taxes, I would assume there will be a reason to distribute funds, right? Like, is there any conceivable barrier situation in the future where you'll be like, uh-oh, can't get the money out? Yeah, so there may be cases where you put money to a foundation and the foundation says,

hey, really, there's no way for us to actually distribute this capital because this is really more like non-profits. Now, these foundations are not designed to skip on taxes. They're literally just foundations for the holding like a trust of money. The Dow can actually create a new company that is for-profit outside of that with the new revenue line. So you have to think about the Dow as like this umbrella organization above these entities so you can direct its work and say, we're going to put this money into a foundation.

We're going to put this money into a different organization. Right. So your flexibility at the voter and the Dow member level to actually design the future a little bit differently. You're not like a company that's stuck in one model. Yeah. That's fascinating. And it really is interesting. This is sort of like the LLC formation, which I believe started in the UK with the shipping companies, the famous first organizations in the Nordics and in the UK created this great LLC structure. We all use Delaware LLC, but that is limited. We have a lot of limitations on that in terms of, of the number of participants, voting, et cetera. And we kind of need more of like an operating system platform version of this. So maybe you could unpack if this was like an operating system, what would the key variables traits of a Dow operating system, if somebody from Marshall Islands or Zug or anywhere else,

were to watch this, Montana, Wisconsin, whoever, a lot of people are trying to get in on Delaware's business, because this would be a money printing machine for Marshall Islands or whatever figures it out. What would the operating system look like? What would you need from it in terms of legality, transactions, finance, etc? And is that what origami does?

Yes. Thank you so much for that. That's exactly what organ is for. So it was successful. People loved it. People came to us and said, hey, we would like to do more of this. Can we do the same thing? And we're like, hey, we should probably build a company and build some software

and the first thing we do is we talk about what we call the charter. And the charter is a piece of document that says, hey, this is why we exist. These are the rules of the game. Here's how tokens will be initially distributed. And here are the ways of running and managing this organization. So, like, here are the different roles in the organization. And how do we actually elect people to those roles?

Right. And so you set up the starting conditions. You've been plain English. And then you talk about the mission that you're trying to accomplish, just like any other company. And then it's actually backed up by a process of creating those groups, then electing people to it, figuring out what your business is and how the revenue first comes in, like, that's one of the most important things that happens at that stage. Right?

And imagine this is all being done in software. And so you can say, hey, Jason just got elected to Treasury Committee. We're going to now change this role to Treasury. Now you have access to a different set of information. Imagine building a company that is natively software first. Not like I have a business and now to get software to actually make the business run. It's like the software exists entirely in software at first so that we can actually think about it the way we normally would.

Like technology, people would think of a business. says remote, a bunch of data you can move around, that's how jobs are being built today. It is amazing how much offline stuff happens right now in businesses. Listen, if you're a founder or an employee at a startup, it's critical that you become capital efficient at this time. Fundraising is tough right now, and cutting your burn is really important. And one great way to cut costs is to run all of your SaaS apps on one platform. And that one platform, Odo. Odo is the only software your company will ever. need. Using Odu's suite of business apps means you don't have a bunch of messy SaaS subscriptions.

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Well, I mean, we have a board structure. We have board meetings. We have board minutes. You know, we have financial reporting, all of these things are in some cases based on tradition and best practices. In some cases, they're strictly legal. And in most cases, they kind of overlap legal concepts, you know, and agreements between individuals that are papered by attorneys or are based on standards. And I think when we look at when things have gone off the rails, Molly, and we can cover this on this weekend service all the time, you will have some individuals.

who says, yeah, I think I'm going to just try to not do what the tradition, traditional thing is. And so we did have this with a company TopTal where they just were like, yeah, we're just never going to convert these notes. We're never going to convert our save, right? And that was just a perfect example of like, well, that's not how SAFEs work. And he's like, is it because the way I interpret it is, this thing doesn't have a conversion date. And here's the video of the, you know, it's actually, safe's happened to be created by Ycom. And here's the video of somebody saying, yeah, The general counsel, I think, of YC saying,

that's an edge case that'll never happen. And I was like, okay, but it happened here, and I'm never going to convert, therefore I never have to give equity, therefore I can sweep all the cash off. So I guess that's the hard work you're going to do with Oregon. I mean, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but crypto does make that a lot easier,

especially Ethereum, because you can actually see the transactions on chain. And so things like, how much money do we have, right? It's a very simple question when you actually put all of your assets on chain. Yes. The thing of like, hey, Jason, how do you actually elect your board members? Like, what's the process? Right? You have to, like, look up the legal documents.

Like, how do I fire this board member? That stuff is now in software. Like, you have a proposal that says, hey, we want a change of members or at the end of the season, we're going to run your elections and the votes get tallied and people are now elected into board rules. Like, it should happen more like that, less. Oh my gosh, what page trying to look up to figure out how to file this guy? I think, you know, I've often said this as I, like you, I think we're kind of similar

generations when we came into this space, it was very opaque. And I think the opakness was designed to obscurify a lot of who had control. And so I think it was opaque by design by powerful people, whether that's attorneys or investors. And then we've had this 20 years of founders saying, well, what's actually in these documents? And what is a liquidation preference? and how do we actually vote for members? And it's becoming more and more standardized.

And then software is the ultimate standardization. Yeah. Because it's code. And you can just look at the code and say, well, when you execute this code, what happens? That's right. As opposed to, okay, let's get into. And every time you talk to your attorney, Molly, they're just like, yeah. So the case law says this, but nobody's ever actually tested the case law the last time was 1827.

You know, and you're like, 1827. To be fair, that'll still be the case. when you have digitized that though, right? Like, well, I mean, it's not like you, I mean, it sounds like on some level what you're creating is a totally new database of corporate structure information. And the corporate structure itself is different in the sense that it's a Dow. But you still have a hierarchy. You still have funding mechanisms. Like, will there be a board?

Like, are you, to what extent are you creating something entirely new that's never existed before versus digitizing? a lot of the crappy stuff that we have to do now. So I'm going to merge what you and Jason said together. So nothing we're doing here is new under the sun. Like shareholder equity exists, like governance and corporations exist, but they exist and a culture at a scale that is not reinforced by transparent information. Right? So if I go try to look up a K1, I really need to know how to read a K1 and be like,

okay, I'm a shareholder, how do I participate? Whereas a Dow participation is natively baked at. Like you hold a token, you can access to Dow by unsidicating your tokens, you can see all the information, see what's available to vote. And so like Jason was saying, I actually had thought about this. We spent 20 years making startups much more normalized to make deals happen faster and to actually reduce the need for trust, right? It's not that it is absent of verification or trust, but the fact is, like, we are okay

taking these risks because they're pretty standardized risks at this point. The same needs to hold true for Dow is to become easier. If you join a Dow and you have no idea what's going on because everything's new, that's a detriment to our ability to actually grow this ecosystem. And so I need to make sure that things are standardized, that things are onboarded properly that you understand these concepts. And that's a lot of the work of, I think, a first generation piece of software like we are doing right now. And just to build on that, if you're successful and you can do this in a jurisdiction, you could make it, Molly, so a person could a la carte create their

own sort of structure of what they think a company should be. So I could say, you know what, we're never going to have a board of directors. That's antiquated. We're just going to have voting. And the way we're going to have voting is the founders get, you know, this a third of the votes, and then the token holders get this many votes. And these are the things that can be voted on. These are the things that can't be voted on. And once that's codified, you're kind of like making your own version of the Delaware LLC. And you might say, Molly, well, no, no, we're going to have a board. It's going to be representative. And it's going to be based on, you know, the founders get two seats. There's going to be an independent that's voted and the two largest shareholders get a seat.

So I'm going representative. And then somebody else would like, you know what? We want to vote on every decision. So when we hire a new CTO, we're literally going to have a million shareholders each get one vote. And this one person who has 250,000 of the shares and paid for them, they have a lot of influence, but we're just going straight voting. So that's the sort of really fascinating part about this is it could be a la carte. Yeah. And I wonder like, oh, go ahead.

Sorry. Well, no. And if you do it in the right jurisdiction, Molly, then it doesn't apply to the U.S. jurisdiction. and then it would just be, well, are Americans allowed to invest in this and through what vehicles or whatever? But you could see, it's not, Delaware's lock on corporate formation

is not locked. You could see young people just because people are also moving out of Silicon Valley in the United States. Although, people who are moving to other jurisdictions. I'm going to say, how long is it going to be before I bring a company like that

to one of our investment meetings and you say we can invest in them? Because that question, are you incorporated in Delaware? Yeah. Is like, let me tell you what that's canon. Yeah.

Like, crypto investors aren't asking what, where your entities based or if you're C-Corp or not, they're asking about your token price. How much am I buying your tokens for? And what do those tokens actually do? Right. Those are the two paramount questions in fair crypto and buying into tokens. That's a very small subset of the venture market today, right?

Because you're investing on the alternative assets class. But that movement of making things easier and transparent, like it is going to have. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying is like, how, what do you think that starts to look? What, what is the tipping point, you know? Is it like a giant exit? Is it like, at what point will it just become such FOMO that we'll be like, okay, fine? Well, no, we already had that with tokens, I think.

So then the question is, when would venture investors? Yeah. Or other folks and LPs feel secure in this? Non-cropo venture investors, yes. Yeah, if you, and some venture investors have turned into crypto investors. So I think when you feel that these systems are secure and you've seen enough of them not have issues and have positive outcomes. So a long way of saying track record.

So some people will do it. Some people will bet just on, hey, how many tokens are there? How many more can you release? You know, what's the volume like? And they're just making this purely, you know, market-based decision. They're not looking at the legality of it at all. But I do think that these could be so tight that these could be more trustworthy than Delaware, which would be really wild.

I'll give you an alternative path of getting there. I agree with you because these are so much simpler. They're in software. It's so much easier for us to understand. The way Orange Fund makes an investment is that we actually invest in the C-Corp, equity, pure equity. We're investing in a normal thing. And then we have actually an agreement across all the investors that says,

if and when this company issues tokens to its investors, we will be treated prerata at that time. That's it. Got it. Super simple, right? Because if the company basically hollows itself out, turns it into a tokenized organization. where all the values go into tokens and not the equity,

the investors are entitled to that. Right. But that's an is. So, you buy 10% of the company for a million dollars, $10 million valuation. If they do a token, you get 10%. Right now, a lot of founders just leave that up to, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it,

but you put it in like a little side letter or something. Yeah, because tokens, there's actually really two times of tokens. Tocons get issued to insiders, like investors and founders. And then tokens that are actually distributed to the community or is used for like trade. treasury reasons and things like that. And so we take the smaller of the, we take the investor part and say, treat us the same, right? We're the same class of stock.

We don't make claims on the total network because that economically doesn't work for most tokenized startups. It's super fascinating. I think I would be willing if somebody built the software tightly, Molly, I would be willing to personally make some angel investments in this space, you know, 10, 25K investments, just to learn. and I think that a lot of people who have participating in crypto have kind of taken that same approach is hey, this is like learning money.

But you did see, you know, people like Andreessen Hartwood's raised billions of dollars to deploy into these companies and take the risk. So take it for me. Hiring developers is really hard. And so many startups struggle to hire fast enough to keep up with demand.

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and you're going to have easy access to global talent. And they can get your developer up and running. You're not going to believe this in under a week. And of course, it's more affordable. I can't tell you how many companies I know are burning money, every month, but their product's not improving. And if your product doesn't improve, well, then you can't make money. You can't hit your milestones. You need developers to hit your milestones. You don't hit your milestones. Investors will not put more money in, and you won't get revenue coming in from your customers,

okay? So if you want to save time, you want to get a great developer, you want to save money, all you have to do is go to lemon.io slash twist, and they'll give you 15% off your first four weeks. That's right, 15% off your first four weeks when you go to Lemon, L, E-M-O-N dot-I-O-S-T-T-T-S. It is so hard to find developers. They are so expensive, and that's why you need lemon.com. I'm not, yeah, I hope that I'm not coming off as the skeptic. Like, I'm sincerely trying to understand it and understand at what point it, you know,

what does it, what are the metrics, what are the markers that say this is trustworthy and is security really it? Because nothing is 100% secure. And do you, when you say security, Jason, do you mean like the thing where, like, down members just come and take over? Yeah, people absconding with money is the worst case scenario. People screwing over the investors is the worst case scenario. So what happened in venture over the history of it was the introduction of what we call

downside protections. So what are downside protections, the concept of preferred shares, obviously. Our shares are worth more than these other shares. We got our money out first. Another one is control, the board. Another one is major transactions we get to approve. So you want to raise more money, you want to change of control, or you want to sell more than X percent of the company, we have to approve that transaction.

So change of control provisions were added to the legal documents. So the interesting thing about this is why I am actually of all the web three nonsense. Number one, I love Dow's. Number two, I'm really fascinated by NFTs when they're like membership and have smart Contrastant. Why? I think it's because I think they'll actually be better than what exists today. In both of those cases, I see those as products that improve upon the status quo. And all those protect what they call the collection of protective provisions for investors, those could be in software and be even more protective. So the CEO cannot withdraw money from the bank account to

spend it unless it's approved by whatever the governance is, a vote or whatever. Or they can spend up to 1% of what's in the treasury without a vote. If they get to 5% they need this much voting. Salaries can't go above this Oracle. So imagine this, Molly. If you said, we, we know that this company, Silicon Valley banks, you know, or whoever's structure of what each position pays, we could say the founders can spend up to 75% of that number without any, any, they could do 75% Ben has a number with any approval. But if they go above 75% of that number, they need to get permission. So you can actually have an Oracle feeding that data in.

Go ahead, Ben. Jason's perfectly right. We can go even further. Let's say you don't want a single individual who has vested interest in a company, let's say a founder, to not have overly high control. Let's say you want to cap that person's voting power at like 25% of the Dow. You can have dynamic vesting. In other words, unless the Dow, unless the Dow has given away more tokens,

so that 75% of it's in circulation, we're not going to actually invest this person any more than this percentage. Like, you can do things in software. They could never have imagined using a legal contract. Right? So you can say, we are in a power sharing agreement hands down, and this is always going to see that way. It's written into the contract.

So I will say, as the voice of the notice, this is working. Corporate oversight via blockchain sounds like a legit use case to me, says Peter. I mean, and that's really the question, right? It's like, what are we trying to achieve that's better than what we have? and transparency alone is a great answer. Transparency and accountability, because you can do weird things on a board. I mean, I have been on boards.

I told you the stories, and I've wrote in my book, I'll just give one example of, and I'm going to make this a collection of examples in one. So this is not one company, this is a composite of a couple of bad behavior. Imagine a founder shows up and says, you know what?

And I got three of the five board seats. I deserve more equity. I'm going to expand the pool. I'm going to give myself more equity. You know what? I feel like the 409A is too high. I'm going to shop it to three different friends and I'm going to find somebody friendly to run it down.

I'll buy more shares of the company in common at that low 409A and I'll just, you know, I'll not tell anybody. Or I'll take this venture fund is going to give me 50% more ownership in the company if I accept their deal terms, therefore I'll just accept it. Like, these things happen in venture. And then you're left.

as a VC, Molly and Ben, as you know, to sue a founder, which has happened exactly like three times in the last 10 years. Yeah. And it's a big action. Big action. Yeah.

Also, I want to point out of Thursday here, which is this is not just about corporate governance. There's an opportunity here for us to actually build an organization that is native to being a network. It is not about employees. It is not just about gig workers. It is about the fact that we all belong into a network and saying, hey, if I have a,

if I belong to an artist network and I want to pass deals and business to other fellow artists, how do I get credit for that? Right now, it's entirely social, and that's fine if you want to, but there could also be a monetary way where they're earned tokens

towards governing this organization more because they're contributing more. And so there's a fairness to the amount of like inputs and outputs that you can actually provide an organization that Dow's and tokenization enable. It's fascinating. Yeah. So you're actually building the software.

That's what you'll see at join origami.com. correct? That's right. Yeah. So we're launching other large-scale DAOs. So we specialize in DAOs with more than 100 members. Flamingo is the other platform, right? That's who you're like contemporary is, Flamingo Dow. What's that? The Flamingo Dow is, uh,

they're, they're an actual Dow. They do some development work, but they're not a Dow framework. And so there's a Dow framework called Molok, which is everybody has to be an investor member and that's capped at about 100 people. What is that called? Spell it. M-O-L-C-H. M-O-L-O-C-H.

Yeah, so it's a type of a DAO framework. There are different DAO frameworks. That's different ways of setting up DAWs. And so Molok is like, everybody's equal and it's usually a direct democracy. And so we are... Monk is like a demon. Right? I might remember that correctly?

Hold on. I'm looking up. Off topic. It's off topic. Sorry. I'm always like, I just feel like the name sends a signal and I want to know what that is. Yeah. Crypto has random names.

It's actually called phone. It's very artistic. Yeah. Uh-huh. Good times. Good times. And origami is like an enterprise framework, right? That actually has like a legal structure.

It's not represented democracy, whereas Molok's direct. And so there's different ways of thinking about now. What are the different philosophies at this point? And it's one most successful than the others. Yeah, Molok's been around a lot longer. So they, remember the Dow in 2016? It was like hacked. It was like a big deal.

The Ethereum forked because of that. That was a Moloch framework, essentially. And basically it says, if I don't like what the Dow is doing, what the investment is, I can actually take my money, pull it out and go home. Oh, like Spack. Yeah, basically like Spack. Yeah, no, but before the SPAC, de-SPACs, you have the chance to redeem whatever you were going to invest in it.

That makes sense. Oh, wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, here we go. Yeah. So it was like that. And again, the legal cap is 99 members because it's an investment club, right? So it's just you and your friends coming together.

So I've actually been part of one of these, and it's fun in a different way. Like, you can buy NFTs with it. You can do some investment in it, but you can't really scale the organization. Because you're limited by the LL. of Delaware, 99% personal model. Yeah, so it's an investment club, and it has to be accredited investors and all that kind of stuff. Basically, yeah. That's where this gets really interesting as if you could have non-accredited investors involved in this, but you can't do that in the United States,

and this is where the United States, I fear, is going to fall massively behind another country, and we need to do some work here and have a discussion about do we want to give Switzerland or Singapore or whatever island chain that, you know, is aggressive enough. Do we want them to run away with this? If this becomes a standard and then Americans don't get to participate in the formation of the next Airbnb or Uber, that's going to stop. We forget that we're roughly economically speaking in crypto about half the globe.

So we're at a tipping point in which the other half, the majority may be outside the United States. And so we're just not going to see those companies. We're not going to see those technologies. like we have reached that point in which we are no longer the dominant force in the room and so we need to behave like it in crypto you mean in crypto yeah

we need to start acting like we are not an up dominant player anymore this is I mean I will say that's part of why we need to be having these conversations and understand this because it's really new and it look it is still really complicated like that all might be true but the idea that we could just sort of march on into it when when the vast majority of people still don't just fundamentally do not understand

and you're saying there's not a legal mechanism for distribution. Like, it's early enough that I would argue we could pull a little bit of an apple here and like wait for Android to figure out all the kinks and then come in and do it perfectly. I'm just saying that's an option. That's an option for me, right? I'm going to keep charging ahead. It's not an option for me. Android.

Thank you. And just a hibernate for like a few years and then just pounce. Exactly. That's usually how startups work. Ben, thank you. This has gone a long way toward helping. helping us understand, I hope. Good to see you guys.

And it's great to see you as well. Good luck with it. And we are really excited. I wish I could just be in the Discord. Are using Discord for the community? Well, some used to, yeah, mostly. God, it would just be like so cool to be able to just hang out in there and watch it. Like, to me, that the community aspect is just the most fun part.

So I'm sure you could find a way. I'm thinking about doing it down. Jump on in. Yeah. Well, there is, I'm thinking, you know, I'm raising our fourth fund publicly, which is like, like I'm doing this 506C, which I'm literally getting off of this, and in seven minutes,

going to pitch hundreds of people. I'm like, what you have to do right now? Don't worry about it. Anyway, I can do this. When you, this is like a step in the direction of like,

hey, letting more people see it. Now it's only accredited in QPs, so it's still a narrow group. But I do think the next step would be. But the more they see it, the more pressure there will be, right? Like that's why the House members who are not investors who are not accredited on QPs.

Yes. That's what the skill really comes in. That's the interesting part. That's not more about that. All right. We'll see you next time, everybody. Bye, bye. Thanks, Ben.

Okay, it's Thursday. Next up, Lon Harris is here. You can follow him on Twitter, Twitter.com slash LO, and as he got on early, Lon is a writer for screen turkeys. Thanks to you. Yes, I told you to get on quickly. You came back from South by Southwest and you got in front of everybody at Mahalo.com. This is true.

And you were like, there's a new thing. You got everybody at South by Southwest is on it. Go there now and grab your name, even if you don't think you're going to use it. That was your advice. On the day, what a very wise thing to say. So anyway, yes, I got L.A. Jason. He does the podcast, binge boys, you can go take a look for. He writes Inside Streaming, and he is here every Thursday for this week in streaming our little section here where we talk about what's going on in the world of streaming from a business content and artistic perspective.

Molly, what do we have in the news here to chop up with our expert lawn? Football, football, football. Like, can we say now with the debut of Thursday Night Football and Amazon Prime that streaming has really arrived? I'm not saying it has not been a huge part of, obviously, our economic landscape. It's changed just about everything in terms of the entertainment industry. But I feel like once you roll in football and you do giant freaking numbers on the back of America's favorite sport, you've arrived. Right? Is that fair, Lon?

Or is it over stating? I mean, for a long time now, for years now, we've been sort of saying the last things to arrive. Like, the thing streaming still needs to figure out, and then it's totally done for broadcasts are sports, award shows, and like live reality TV. Like, those are the things broadcast still does well that streaming can't do. Would you just be in there? CNN Plus? I mean, I feel like news already, like every one of these news. stations already has a streaming counterpart.

If you want to watch your NBC News on NBC News now, you've been able to do that for years. Got it. Okay. So maybe news doesn't fall into there because it's not. I mean, I feel like it was already. It doesn't draw that many people. Right. Whereas these, these things.

And then just this week, if you think about it, we got the Emmys that you could watch on Peacott streaming live. Right. We got Thursday Night Football's big debut on Amazon and Dancing with the Stars. now is a Disney Plus show live every week. It used to be ABC was the only place to see it. Now Disney Plus is the only way to see it.

And it's the same exact format. It's just on Disney Plus now. So I feel like that's it. Like streaming, they've conquered all the goals. It's basically it for broadcast TV as far as I can tell. That's game. I think so. Molly, I just want to call it an audible here, no pun intended.

Since I heard the word Emmys. It was. This is a message to the people who run award shows. You suck. We tune into award shows because we are super fans of the artists who make the shows, whether it's the Oscars, the Globes, whatever. There is a formula we want. The funniest, most irreverent comedian doing their schick,

This includes Ricky Jervais at the top of his game and Chris Rock, yada yada, Tina Faye was great with Amy Polar. That's what we want, a comedian who can take the piss out of the celebrities. That's always fun. And then let the celebrities give a speech. Let them talk for as long as they want. Or if there's a major category. And then we don't need anything else. need singing numbers, we don't need skits, we don't need anything else. Just a joke, monologue,

and then let the person give their speech. This is a message from people who consume a award show or used to consume award shows religiously and who now can't stand watching them, the end. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Well, I keep, I keep waiting. It feels like every year, the pendulum is going to swing back, and the person who comes in to take over these shows is going to be like, return to glamour, old Hollywood,

let's make it like it used to be in the 70s and 80s and 90s that everyone's nostalgic for. And then it never happens. They always have a new idea, like, oh, we're going to be a train station this year. It's weird.

It's weird. If they figured it out in like the 40s, just go back and do what they used to do in the Bob Hope era. Do that? I mean, to go back where we started, interestingly, it's like, can streaming, streaming might just end up sort of displacing broadcast, but then being the same thing. And that's not exactly what we wanted.

So that would be kind of a bummer. Like just restreaming to, you know, like we are, the Emmys to peacock in the same old way. It's sort of like streaming, we just, I think we keep circling around the fact that streaming is now TV in all the ways. Including, we sort of wish that, somebody would just bundle it together and I could just pay one price for all those channels. Sure. I mean, that's a refrain you see constantly on social media is that streaming has just become, we wanted to get away from cable and the idea that I had to pay all this money for all these services and channels and whatever for four shows that I wanted to watch.

And now, yeah, if you wanted to watch Severance and the boys and rings of power and stranger things and you got to get five services you maybe don't need. In that way, it is similar. The bundles are coming. The bundles are coming. The Bonds are coming. The NATO will happen. We'll NATO this.

But I don't think we'll be forced into it. Like, as long as we can still have Al-a-Cart. And we can. And I think that's what I think people get a little greedy. And I think that you could, you could pick any one of these services with a few exceptions, but most of them. And just have that one. And there would be plenty to watch. There would always be new things, especially one like Netflix or Hulu, where they're adding things constantly.

I don't really think you need people want to have all of them because there's always hot new shows on new ones that you want to see but that's not the same thing. This is a classic first world problem which people don't realize. You have the freedom to be like

I'm just going to subscribe to this for a month while this one show is on and then cancel. That's magical. You have so much power now and we are so entitled. Everybody shut up and enjoy the bounty. It's really true. Don't ruin it.

We're getting... They're losing money on these services. Let them lose money. And if you can't afford $125 for everything, then shut up by $60 for almost everything every three months, cancel, pause, and then do the other three. You greedy, you know, load some. I feel like you're about to go full Kim K.

You're going to be like, oh, you can't afford all the streaming services. Work harder. No, well, just do two more DoorDash deliveries and you'll have everything. I'm not like, as much as I hate to just like blatantly promote Amazon. Like, if you got no. other streaming services. Just prime. You get not only a pretty great streaming service with a lot of stuff to watch,

but a heck of a shipping deal. You know, like that's just one. And that's just, you can just have that one. We're so spoiled. We're spoiled. Right.

Right. And then you were a little bit of how stuff didn't come. I want to know what the NFL did for three days. Yeah, let's get into the NFL numbers. All I care about is numbers because I might be making J trades. I need numbers. I mean, honestly.

Amazon, Okay, here's the deal. Amazon reportedly signed an 11-year, $11 billion deal. So a billion dollars a year for the exclusive rights to one night of football. They get 15 games per season for that billion dollars. Wait, 15 games per season. 15 Thursday night football games per season. Let's do that quick math here.

What is each game cost at a billion dollars a year? $70 million. About $68 million, yeah. Per game. So the deal started this season, and to watch the games, viewers, needed to either... Bestos gets to watch the games with Goodell. He gets to watch the games with the NFL commissioner.

So you saw all those memes going around, right? Of Bezos sitting next to Goodell watching the games. Yeah. It's a two and a half hour game. So I guess that means they're spending $500,000 per minute on a game. Okay, keep going. Yeah. Sounds seems legit.

Reasonable. To watch the game, viewers either needed a prime subscription or they needed to go to a bar because Amazon and DirecTV announced this partnership where Thursday night football would actually be included with its business package, which is distributed to 300,000 bars, restaurants, hotels, casinos, and sports books. Now, the big question is- They're also working with Nielsen to measure that audience. So that's like, that's working in two ways for them. Because they, they hired Nielsen. It's the first time a streaming platform has ever done this. They've hired Nielsen as a third party to look at all their back end, look at all their numbers,

and assemble these reports of like how many total eyeballs are on these Thursday night. football streams. Interesting. Part of what they're measuring is that hotel. How many people are watching in bars? How many people are watching in this hotel, that hotel? I mean, there's nothing. There's nothing better than...

So, in my opinion, there's nothing better than sitting at a hotel bar like watching sports. It's just delightful. You're on a trip. No one needs you. You don't have to take care of anybody you're just having your martini. No kids. No kids.

In the bar downstairs. Just literally making. friends watching sports. It is the greatest guy. I love hotels. It's literally like Jason, can I go on a trip? No, work. Work harder. In related news, Amazon is starting a new chain of bars. It's going to be called Amazon Prime Rib. So you're going to be able to go there and get your prime rib and beers. What is your name? Okay, this is brilliant. During that way, let's talk about results here, right? Because this is obviously a big investment. Anything could have happened. And the moment, this last week, a week ago today was Thursday night football week one.

And Amazon saw, quote, the biggest three hours for U.S. Prime signups ever. Makes sense. Well, they're including Black Friday, Cyber Monday, Prime Day. It beat every promotion they've ever done for Prime. In one three hour period because you know what America loves? Football. You know what this is? How do I watch this game?

It definitely drove a lot of people who had never before even considered signing up for Amazon Prime to Prime, which is a very valuable. If you could grab those people who didn't even know about it, that's a thing. Remember I talked about monetized marketing for the last 20 years, if you were to put this, the billion dollars a year, let's say one third of it comes back in new Amazon Prime supporters. A very small number, like 2 million, right? great. Two million times 150 a year, 300 million. So let's just say they get back roughly a third in actual. Then if they were to the advertising value of this, all the people they reach was worth another couple of hundred million a year. You know, 20 million a game. I don't know what. 10 million a game, maybe 15 games. Okay, they're halfway there. And the other half, you know, they lose.

Still worth it. Still worth it as a marketing experiment. It cost them half the amount they thought it did. And now they have the data on this when they do their next 10-year deal with the NBA or other leagues or they buy leagues or they start buying teams. Now they have all the data. Exactly. And this is part of when you're an executive, when we look at this, it doesn't make sense to us, right? We can't pencil it out in a Google sheet. I'll tell you how executives pencil this out in a board meeting. Okay, 300 million of the billion.

That goes to prime. We would have spent 200 million on marketing. Take that from the marketing team's TV budget. Great. 500, now we're 500 million in the whole. Let's see what happens. If we lose 5 billion, we make that in whatever number of days. Great.

What do we do next? With this information and data, we can negotiate with Goodell and say, you know what? We're not going to pay 11 billion again for Thursday. We'll pay 750, but we also want one more game on Tuesday or whatever. And then they'll just have data to do that brilliant move. This will have a bigger impact than the Lord of the Rings experiment. So look at those both as billion dollar experiments. Way bigger. This is a way.

This will do way bigger. I was just looking up the cost of NFL Sunday ticket because of course every week as a Bay Area resident, you're like, why do I have these stupid football games instead of the games I wanted to watch? And NFL Sunday ticket historically has been the only way to get that. That costs $249 a year, $294, sorry. And that's how you get every Sunday game that's out of market. Or you can spend $10 per game, so $120 per year.

So that's $10 less than Prime to get at least the Thursday night football. And then Nick pointed out that Sunday ticket, the exclusivity expires this year. So imagine of Amazon. Behind the scenes, that's what I was going to say. This is already happening. They're all fighting over who's going to get Sunday ticket on there as an add-on to their platform. Can you imagine if Amazon bought Sunday ticket? And I could get every game.

They would partner. They would partner. Prime subscription? Yeah. It would be, it would be think of that, oh, like an Amazon channels kind of deal. You would have Amazon Prime video, and then you would add on NFL Sunday ticket.

For 10 bucks. Right. For whatever. And then you access it through your Amazon Prime video account. I mean, every one of those users becomes a Prime user. Right. And one of those users becomes a Prime user.

No, you have to. And then think about the merch. You have to. Think about the merch. You see all that merch up there on the top left is merch. is what I talked about with Disney Plus. Like Disney has a relationship to have your credit card.

Now, Amazon has your credit card. You become a prime subscriber. You watch the Jets lose and embarrass themselves or the Eagles lose and embarrass themselves. Like one of those really horrible teams with terrible fan bases

who buy a lot of jerseys. Apparently, there are any shilling merch on the homepage. How dare you? But I'm just saying, Thursday now. Look at that. I'm just saying, you know,

let's say you're like a horrible human being who works for the jet. are the Eagles fan. I know, like, don't bait Philadelphia. I'm just picking the worst fan bases in the world. They're very violent. That would be Eagles than Jans.

And they're in the running for worst. Somebody's only even D battery on your doorstep. And you're going to be able to that man. You take those two fan bases, one of which eats horse poop. It's the city of brotherly loved, sir. They ate horse poop when they won. That's it. Tells you everything you need to know.

He's going to haunt your nightmares. Oh, geez. So you take those Eagle fans and then you upsell them on your jerseys. but the jerseys are on Amazon. So these absolute savages who don't know how to use computers, the Eagles fans, you're now getting those Eagles fans

to actually learn how to use a keyboard and type and buy stuff online. You're bringing those lacquards. The jet fans who, you know, are just drinking vodka straight from a water bottle of a game. Now they buy games. Okay, that's it.

I know. We're trying to talk business over here and you're just like, no, no, no, I'm sorry, I'm busy baiting. I mean, this would be, if Amazon ended up partnering for NFL Sunday ticket, like this is all red,

they've already had a massive victory. The NFL is just raking in money. The fact that the Amazon homepage, exactly, is festooned with merch right now. Merch that costs like 50 times what it should cost. And people are like, I don't care, click. I'm pretty drunk. Like, this is bananas.

You know what the power move is? Google should get in on this. Google's got tons of money. They have no streaming services, but they got that they got YouTube. They should just make this part of YouTube. YouTube plus. In some ways, YouTube is the biggest streaming service. Like, people forget they don't include that with the others because it's not the high profile shows, but just in terms of eyeballs.

How should the NFL pick a partner? How should the NFL pick a partner? If you pick Amazon, you drive massive merch. You pick Google. You drive global reach on YouTube. You pick Apple. Also in the running for Sunday ticket, of course. I don't know what you get to pick Apple, but I don't know what their advantage is.

I don't know. Who would you pay? I mean, they would have to just give the money. They all offer the same dollar amounts. I mean, I guess with Apple, you've got the devices, you know? Like, who knows what kinds of integration you could do with NFL plus Apple Apple directly on everybody's device? That's interesting.

Well, here's the problem. The Eagles fans don't, they would never be able to afford. They have Android users. They don't, they're not sophisticated enough to use Apple products. They have iPhones. They have iPhones is not the. spirited defense that you think it is. They're using flip phones. Eagle fans are

installed flip phones. Come on. There's a little bit of, you know, cheese steak residue on there. You don't, I don't think Apple wants. They just got free-d- You can use a phone and hold a soft pretzel. So many debaters. Let's move on.

Wipped our way. I want to talk House of Dragons. I don't want to, spoiler alert. Andor came out with it. House of the Dragon. It's their suit. Whatever. I call it Dragon. House of Dragons.

I'm not putting in front. Also the House of Dragons, though. Let's talk about this. This is the greatest show on TV. Go. Dude, this show is killing. This show, nobody cares. It's the only show I look for it to right now.

They're up to 29 million weekly viewers. Yeah, they're almost. It's insane. It was around 40, 42 million per episode in the last season of Game of Throats. And it's heat like that was at the most game of throids ever got. House of the Dragon is almost like more than halfway there already. It's the new football. Halfway three season one.

General Zodzlov. General Zodzloff, one of her brothers' train is underwater, but I'm going to buy more. This is a Casey Blois victory, but he's the head of HBO content. I love HBO. But yeah, I mean, it's really surprising considering just a few months ago, there was so much cynicism around this whole franchise. The last series ended on this kind of sour note for people. The books aren't finished. Everybody was like, David Thrones fever is.

forever. Westrose is done. Nobody cares anymore. And all it took was five episodes to bring everybody back and it's and it's everybody's favorite thing again. And it's going to, I mean, this just became the new Marvel. Like this is never going to, we're never going to have any other entertainment than football and some sort of Game of Thrones spin off, I would imagine. I mean, if you were on HBO executive right now, people are being very, very clear, I think about, about what they want, you know? They want teens doing drugs. They want a lot of high school sex.

And they want... HBO understands what people want. Totally. Here's the HBO formula. Number one, you need a story, a plot that moves at a nice pace. Number two, lots of characters. Number three, you need actors that we don't know, or maybe are vaguely familiar with, but that know how to act,

who are great actors. actual actors. That's your, that's your foundation. Now, what do you sprinkle on top of a fast-moving plot with great actors?

Drugs, sex, violence. Extreme violence. Stop. Stop with the extreme. Whatever. I'm going to start, you know I'm going to start watching it now.

I've been reading the recats and I'm totally riveted. Sopranos. What do you got? Incredible actors that we don't know. James Gaddenfini, who knew him? He wasn't get short. He was great and get short. He was also in true romance for five minutes and stole the show.

Small roles, yeah. Small roles. Then you got extreme violence, okay? And then, of course, there's lots of drugs and sex going on. Let's go to industry. I just finished season two. Amazing show. I don't know anybody on the show, except for one guy who I remember from...

Lost. No. I remember them from Rogue One. Sure. Okay. I don't know any of these other actors, but they're having sex. They're backstabbing each other. The plot changes every 17 minutes.

Drug sex. Awesome. There's no violence, but it's whatever. It's okay. Well, you got the wire, you got Boardwalk Empire. Deadwood. They know what people want. And they pay writers and they pay actors.

They know how to select those writers and actors. those writers and actors. Why does every other network not understand this concept? Adult fair. I mean, there are some like AMC, I think does a nice job. They did a good job.

I agree. He does a great job. It has a lot of great original shows. If you're not watching Reservation Dogs on Hulu, by the way, which is an FX show, incredible. One of the best shows on TV right now.

I love that. I do have like a very, very soft spot for FX because the shows are super adulty and also they rerun all the trash movies that I love. That's my favorite That's my little rant on HBO and how awesome they are This show

Game of the House of the Dragon The Dragon The Dragon Killing it is I will say It is still gross It is still

Like creepy and weird It is still super violent But it is less of all of those things Than Game of Throats I do believe that How much less They did make a concerted effort to tone. It's still there.

It's still there. It's still there. I was about to say there's like a little more incest, but there's kind of not because the Game of Thrones was literally brother and sister. And at least right. Brother and sister. And at least this is like cousins. I mean, it's bad.

It's like 10% less of everything. They kept it recognizably weird George R. Martin. stuff. Right. But they have made a conscious effort, I think, to, it's less of a focus on those elements and more of a character focus and the political machinations

and battles. And then we all know war is coming, and so you kind of can't. I mean, honestly, like, I've been doing my usual Game of Thrones thing, which is like I'm too much of a sort of a weird chicken to watch it, but I read the recaps every week. You'll be back in. I'm as of episode six,

I think I'm going to be in, because it's going to make the leap ahead in time and the new kid. I'm just like, fine. They just the last episode with the young cast. So we're going to get, uh, we're going to get the older versions of those two cats. Allison Taitower and Raina Targary and we're going to, they're going to jump in age in the next step. Wait, wait, but Damon and Princess Renara are not going to jump in age, are they?

No, Princess Renera. We're switching, we're switching actors in the next episode. Millie Alcock who played Princess Renair in the first five episodes. She's done. She's off the show. What? Do you even read the internet, bro? No, I try not to.

Wait a second. I was about to say that the two greatest. That was her farewell episode. She's over. They're not getting rid of Matt Smith too, are they, Damon? No, Matt Smith is going to say. The only other character, Allison Hightower, her friend who's now the queen, she's gone. That was her last episode as well.

And Olivia Cook, who you would reckon, I'm trying to think of what you'd know her from. She's been in a lot of other stuff. I know Olivia Cook. Yeah. She's going to win over. are not going anywhere. Reds Player 1, exactly. She's the new Allison High Tower

starting this next week. So the coasters still exist. We're going forward in time, so they have to be thrown up. They can't get rid of Millie Alcock. No. It's done. So there's still the queen and the princess, those characters.

We're just going to see older versions of them because we're jumping ahead like five or six years. I guess as well is, I know we're all very attached to Patty Considine as Prince of his eris, but considering the state of, I'm assuming it's leprosies, whatever he has.

I don't know his arm's not looking good to him. I don't think he's still around. I think we're going to jump ahead to a time when he's already I don't know if I'm with this. I wanted the whole season. I feel terrible actually.

Like the greatest character in game of it's like top five character in Game of Thrones for me. It's like Maisie Williams level. I'm blanking on the name. Emma something who's taking over. Emma Darcy. Maybe she'll be great.

You know, she's taking over. It's the same character. I feel like. If I don't have the emotional bandwidth for the show, Jason didn't have the emotional bandwidth for this news. I feel terrible. You look devastated. Amy's.

They're looking crushed. Emma Darcy was born in 1992. She was born in 1992. Yeah. Millie was born when? 2000. It's an eight year difference. She's 22.

Let the woman have the role. They wanted to really strongly reinforce that this change is like they wanted to reinforce these significance of this time jump to these characters. Okay, wait a second. I am going to call BS in this. This is a purposeful thing that they did. But Matt Smith. Matt Smith is still Damon Targary for the whole show.

Wait a second. Well, he's older. He's an older character. He's 92. Those two actresses are playing younger than their ages, I think, because of the maturity of the role. She's playing, Millie is playing 18 and she's actually 22. This better be great.

This better be great or I'm, this could. I mean, Olivia Cook is a terrific. I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be just bad. And she was really good recently in Slow Horses on Apple TV Plus, which I've been recommending up and down. Okay, I'll check it on. I like your industry recommendation. I just want to shout out to industry in the cast of industry. I think I'm going to start watching industry.

Industry is good. Yeah. Fantastic. And the second season was people had a problem with the second season. It's like a lot of these second seasons where you got to just like let it breathe. They just had the finale, I think, last week. And it was fantastic. I don't want to do any spoilers.

Awesome. Okay. And highest rating. I enjoy industry as much as I enjoy Haster Dragons. Absolutely fantastic. Really, I mean, it's euphoria plus like billions. Like, if that sounds good to you, it's basically

just like hitting that intersection. What did the Lord of the Rings disaster? Because I have absolutely no desire. I don't know what night it's on. I have, I literally painfully watched the first two episodes of the Lord of the Rings. It's phenomenal. Really?

Why so good? I'm not interested in it right now. I love it. I love it. When does it get good? It's good. I mean, I think it was good all along.

It's good. The first two were too slow for me the episodes. I didn't bond with any characters. I love it. I mean, I got to say, like, I've, there's a lot going on.

It's complicated, but I'm just reading the recaps of the House of the Dragon, but I watched the hell out of the terminal list. That was awesome. What is the, what is the, for the Lord of the Rings? We don't know.

They don't tell us. They don't tell us. They're not saying, yeah, they're not saying. What other military fetish trash? like the Terminalist. Do you have,

when is there going to be a new Jack Ryan for God's sake? Like, come on. There's news today. Chris Pratt was on a podcast today and has hinted around season two of the Terminalist is a go and they're figuring out

everybody's deal right now behind the scenes. There's been a lot of questions, a big question mark over will they get another season? Apparently, because like he didn't want to have to do so much work or something.

I don't know. Well, there's a bunch, apparently Jack Carr, the author of the book, There's like a bunch of books in that series. Oh, I know I'm about to start reading them. I'm working. I'm currently making my way through all the gray man books.

I mean, this is literally like I don't know what. I'm just a dude. I'm just a dude. You like a guy airport books. Yeah. I like guy airport books. Yeah. In both TV movies and actual audio books.

Adam Schaefer in the in the chat just made the same recommendation I was going to. Did you watch Reacher on Amazon? Oh, yeah, of course. So good. So, I've already. So freaking. I loved Reacher. Reacher was terrific. Reacher was terrific.

Did you watch and or came out last night, Wednesday? Yes. Technically, if you stayed up like me like an idiot until 2 a.m., you could have watched it Tuesday night. But, yes, technically Wednesday. I have watched the first one. I want to watch you at my daughters this weekend, which, you know, sometimes I'll be honest, I would watch BobaFet or, I would watch BobaFet or the Mandalorian before them and that I'd watch it with them and tell them I didn't. And then they figure it out when I would, like on that Disney. plus they would see that I watched it already.

They figured out how to do that. Like, you watched it already. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just checking it to make sure it was appropriate for kids. Was Andor, just give me a thumbs up or thumb up. I watched the only the first one. Oh, I loved it. I thought it was great.

Okay. I thought it was great. I thought it was true. Molly, thumbs up or thumbs sound? I'm going to give it a thumbs sort of like the first, the very first one moved a little slow for me, but that's kind of always the case, right? It's the first one. And, but it's such a different tone.

from Star Wars that you're used to that I'm very hopeful. I'm actually like, I'm excited to watch the next to. I like it. Here's what I was going to say. I think that they're doing their Disney plus thing, which Disney has this concept that it doesn't, we don't have to follow TV rules.

Like the rules don't apply to us. We don't have to obey structure. You're already in. You love Marvel. You love Pixar. You love Star Wars. Who cares what the format is? We're just going to give it to you however we want.

Yeah. If you watch the first three episodes of Andor together as a 90-minute movie, it works beautifully. It's perfectly structured. That's obviously how Tony Gilroy, the writer, conceived of it and how it was written and how it was presented. And then Disney has been like, well, let's hack it up into three pieces and make it three episodes of TV. Because that's better for us in terms of releasing or whatever. And I don't know why you would do, I don't know why you would do that. It's very frustrated because then people come away with exactly what you two have come away with, which is, yeah, if you watch one, it would be like watching the first third of a movie and then being like, that wasn't a very good movie.

And then I mean like, well, I guess there's more than I have to go to bed now. And I could, I could feel that. Like, when it ended, I was like, wait, it's just starting. You will get to the end of episode three and be like, I want to see more of this. I can just do me a favor? I'm going to pay somebody $100 to do this. Could somebody take the three episodes of Andor, take out the beginning and, you know, whatever the. interstitials are or whatever, put it on a Google drive for me.

I'll send you $100 by Vemmo, whatever you want. And just make it into a 90-minute movie for me to... What we were saying yesterday and Screegelly illegal, but sure. A lot of anime shows do this and some British shows do this where they'll just have a movie and it's like the pilot is just a movie. Like here's a 90-minute movie and now it's like Battlestarkalactica did that, I think. Yes, yes. What this should have just been that.

Like, why not just do that? I don't understand why they wouldn't do that. I know why they would force it in anyway. But as a three episode opener, I really enjoyed it. And exactly what you're saying, Molly. I think it's like a cool reboot. It's a full. I mean, yeah, the tone change is startling.

We definitely should. This is like a PSA, I think. We're doing the world of favor by saying like, don't think of it as the first episode. Because if you think of it that way, you're going to be like, what did I just have? It's not a pilot. If anything, I was like, well, at least it's really short. You got to watch them all three. And episode two ends on this really random.

There's the scene of him like walking through a scrapyard. It's totally uneventful. And they just cut to black, like written by Tony Gilroy. Like, how is that the end of an episode? No, that's a force cut. That's a force cut. Right. It's like it was a three episode thing.

And then they just sat cut it up for no reason. I don't know. It's weird. When they did the, what was the first Marvel show they did? Oh, with the TV. The first one on Disney Plus Wanda Vision, right. Well, I think with Wanda Vision, you're right. They're like, we're going to do something, you know,

unique here that's not like regular television. We're going to challenge the audience with a different format, with a different concept. I like it. I like the different concept. Here's the next piece. If somebody can take Obi-Wan and Andor when they're done, and then cut them up and then use collateral from Clone Wars,

Rogue One, and a New Hope, whatever flashbacks, whatever to stitch it together with some additional material. I'll give you 500. bucks to do that for me if it's good. Well, the thing about Andor that's interesting is that it's, it's not really trying to tie in very closely. It's sort of opening up this new little pocket of the world.

I get that. It's the least referential of all the other shows. Like, there's not a lot of like, callbacks to this guy, that guy, this planet, that planet. But if it's occurring in the timeline when other things could have been occurring. Yeah. Is there a possibility leading into Rogue One is the timeline or it? So is there a possibility with it to have. Yeah, rebels.

Flash forwards or flashbacks to something that happened in the Clone Wars or something that happened. Yeah, you could flashback to prequels or Clone Wars and this is in the timeline of rebels, that animated series. Yeah, so cut in some rebels, right? Which they're going to do a live action version of rebels, right? A route, that's still in the rumored stage. I thought they cast the kid from rebels. I've got the kid's name in Rebels, but. No, yeah, that Ezra Bridger, that character is going to show up in Asoka.

He's going to be in the Asoka show, which is, I mean, that's what I was going to say. The Asoka show is basically going to be Dave Faloni doing a live action follow up to the Clone Wars. Can't wait. So, characters from the Clone Wars will be showing up in Asoka. I amend my previous statement.

Throne is going to be in it. I mean, they're opening up that whole part of the world. I have read some of those books. Those are good. I amend my previous statement in which I said. It's not exactly the same as the Timothy Zon classic books, but they have taken Thron from the Timothy Zon books

and putting him in. Thron is a great character. I love those books. But it's not the exact. It's not the exact. It's not the exact Thrawn. No, it is. I will say, I would like to amend my previous statement in which I said that the NFL and Game of Throne

Spinoffs was going to be our only entertainment. Game of Thrones spinoffs, the NFL and Star Wars will be our only entertainment. Can't get away from that Star Wars. It's a canceled. It's a golden era. Big TV. That's why we have you on week after week, man. It's not ending.

It's not ending folks every Thursday. only exists on television now, no more films. I mean, I guess the question we have to ask is, should this week in streaming become a spin-off show at this point? Because we get to 30 minutes of this and people want more. We keep saying we're going to do 30 minutes with Lund and every time I just lap, I'm like, no, we're not. I mean, I can go for another half hour at least right now. Easily.

And I wonder if I've broken copyright law by putting a bounty out to make fan versions. To be clear, you definitely have. On the internet, those recuts or what have you? I just commissioned them. You did just commission them. Bob Eiger or whoever's running Disney right now. Who's the guy running Disney? Bob Chapic.

Chapic. Chapic? I don't know. I call him Chapic. Chapic. I don't know. I think it's one of us. Not feeling him.

I think they made a critical error with this price gouging. That's my message for Chapic. Like it's not worth it to have people feel bad about Disney. Disney's fan base cap the number. people at the parks, but don't extract money from them the way they're doing. It's not cool. It's unbelievable. It's horrible. You can't charge a lot of ill will among their as their diehard. Don't do that. Open another park. Here's an idea. That's per chapic. Be bold. Find somewhere that's equidistant between the two parks and open a third park in America.

Be bold. Where would you put a park lawn if you had a third park? Hmm. Would you put a third park in Texas? Vegas? Where would a third? See, those places have a lot of competing destinations. What Disney does well. Like,

Chicago. Disney made Anaheim a destination. They made Orlando a destination. So I almost feel like you want to pick something like that, like a place with a lot of infrastructure, but that isn't already like the quad cities or something. You know, like that like Kansas City.

Like right, or like outside, like in between Nashville and, like Nashville and Kansas City like how do you hit both of those markets? I mean you could do Kansas City or even like Detroit. Detroit has like a beautiful airport. It has to be 70 degrees year round. Oh yeah. Kansas City is very hot.

It has to be Southern Hemisphere but not so Southern Hemisphere, but not so it's Southern Hemisphere, it hits 110. You think? It has to be 70, 80 degrees, 90 degrees max year round. I mean, there are popular theme parks in Texas where it gets really like that's where six flags is from. It's like crazy hot. And like it gets crazy hot in Texas over the summer. Colorado?

Yeah. Colorado. You could do New Mexico. Inaccessible part of the year. Like revitalized Albuquerque. They already have that wonderful balloon festival. I don't know. I have such a soft spot for New Mexico.

And you could have a better call Saul and breaking bad. I was just going to say. And then you have this whole like breaking bad. The Gilligan Albuquerque verse. You can make it the adult. Ozarks have Jason Bateman. Ozarks land. Lake of the Ozarks.

If you want to stop me, you're going to have to kill me. I love that clip. If you want to stop me, you're going to have to. That's a really good idea. Like, because they've already got all the tourist infrastructure. Lake of the, yeah, but if you did New Mexico,

you could call it Dark Disney. All right. And make it the adult experience. Yeah. When you say adult experience, why? That is not what I mean. No,

I'm like how Andor is a Star Wars for grownups. Yeah. Let's, let's leave Disney and Adults. If you had like Breaking Bad and, I don't have, you know what, it's already with the Disney and the alcohol. People are already starting fights at Disney. You don't have to have alcohol.

I think the reason they're starting fights at Disney is because it's too crowded and too expensive. Unaccompanied adult Disneyland. What's the max a ticket to Disney should cost during the week? I mean, I don't know. Yeah, like, oh, anytime it's over $70, $80 is when I start to like, and I'm old. So maybe that's me. Like, I remember when a ticket to Disney. was like 40 bucks.

And so, like, can't break a hundred. Part of it is just the old man in me that knows how, like, much it's changed over the years. Just make it. I also remember when a season pass was $150. Yeah. I mean, we bought them. Remember one time?

I think from a hollow I bought everybody a season pass one year. Yeah, it was like, what? $250 at that point. Everybody was low-go. I was like, you know what I'll do for my team? Instead of giving them like, you know, whatever, I'll just, we're going to go to Disney anyway. I took every Disney for an offsite.

And I just gave everybody the season pass. And I get to that goes. I get that that goes up over time, but it's gone up to such a ridiculous exponential degree. Shame on you. Now it's thousands of dollars for an annual pass. Shame. Shame. Like one ticket for one day is 100 starts at $140.004.

And to me, that's where you start to like, I mean, that is kind. And I don't mean to mythologize Walt Disney the man. Like, I don't think he's like a saint like figure. But his original vision, if you care about that at all, was that Disneyland would be widely accessible. That it wasn't just a playground for the rich, that it would be anybody could afford to bring their family working people. Family of five, max cost $400. And I think that you do, it is important in some way for the company to still shepherd that vision. That it's not, it's not Jurassic Park where you have a coupon day and otherwise it's only for the wealthiest.

That's not what Disney is supposed to be great. We got to go. Lon, you're awesome. Let's keep this discussion going. Unsolicited advice for Bob Chepic, Chapic, whatever. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. It's been a great week up until Thursday.

We still have more. We have Friday and Sunday, Molly. We do. More, more, more. Jason's got a huge interview coming up tomorrow. Can't say who? Nope. Leaving you in suspense.

Surprise Friday interview. We're going big on the interviews. It turns out there's a lot of people who want to come on the pod, and we've been, you and I have been enjoying our time together, you know, doing the MJ, the Molly and Jason, best duo in podcasting. But we need to get some interviews in here because there's a lot of famous, important people.

And tomorrow we have one of the top publicly traded CEOs in the world on the pod. I'll leave it a good one. It's good one. And OK, Boomer, because we never leave you hanging on Friday. We know how you like. No, no, no, no, no. Of course. And then Sunday we'll be coming.

We'll tell you about that later. Okay. Bye. See you then. Bye. Thank you.