This Week in Startups - E1040: Figma CEO & Co-Founder Dylan Field shares insights on crucial moments in Figma’s creation, overcoming SaaS burnout, active vs. passive user-pricing, getting Greylock & Sequoia to invest after they initially passed & more!

Episode Date: March 27, 2020

1:00 Jason intros Figma’s Dylan Field & Dylan explains why WebGL was crucial to Figma’s creation 7:09 Why ChromeOS is flourishing in schools 11:28 Who are Figma’s competitors & how do they compare 14:12 How does multiplayer mode work on Figma? 17:29 What does Figma charge, Dylan’s thoughts on charging for SaaS: bottom-up or top-down? 30:26 Is SaaS burnout real? Active-user pricing vs. Passive-user pricing & the importance of increasing pricing transparency 34:41 Becoming a Thiel Fellow, meeting Jason at Foo Camp, what happened between Mahalo & Google? 44:52 Jason goes deeper on what happened at Mahalo 46:33 Why Figma releases new features so quickly, the open-design theory & how it makes Figma anti-fragile 48:42 How is Figma handling COVID-19 on an internal & external basis 1:02:39 Figma’s funding history, why Index led the Seed, why Greylock initially passed & wound up investing 1:08:13 Why Kleiner Perkins invested & why Sequoia passed on the Series B & wound up investing, importance of getting to know your lead investors 1:11:05 How Dylan preps for & leads Figma’s board meetings 1:12:05 How working from home has given bosses better insights into who is actually making major impacts

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Silicon Valley Bank. Ideas Bank here. All right, everybody, welcome back to this week in startups. We're here. Today happens to be March 24th. Not sure when you're going to be listening to this, but we are in the middle of the coronavirus and wishing everybody well and everybody's safe and practicing social distancing, which we are doing here.

I'm in the studio and our guest is in the studio, but we are six feet apart. And so we're practicing social distancing and we're the only people in the studio except for the engineer. And we've been cleaning things like crazy on the program today after many mentions from his investors on this podcast. Dylan Field is here. He is the CEO and co-founder of Figma. That's F-I-G-M-A.com, which is a piece of software

that allows you design apps, websites, etc. And I think your original concept here, correct me if I'm wrong, was what if Photoshop existed in a browser window? Yeah, that was one prompt that kind of got us to Figma. But I think even further back, from that, we're just kind of asking ourselves, like, what if all creative tools were online,

collaborative multiplayer in the browser? Yeah, in the browser, at the time you started in 2012? Yeah, you got it. Was an insane concept. Because browsers were for images, videos, and just whatever, but not for software essentially.

Yeah, I mean, you had Google Docs, you had Google Sheets, that was kind of it. And we knew, because we had done, especially my co-founder, had done some early work on WebGL, which is the ability to use the GPU in your computer in the browser. We knew it's possible. Because of WebGL.

Because of WebGL. So you could basically start to use the GPU to accelerate things and make creative tools faster in the browser. And WebGL was created by who and for what purpose? Yeah. So WebGL came on Mozilla. And it was just basically a way to have an interface to the GPU inside the browser. And then the standard started getting adopted.

Why is it important to WICL? Yeah. Yeah. Why is it important to have WebGL? What was their impetus for doing that? Because we had Flash before that. You had other tools for doing graphics in the browser. I'm not sure if they actually tapped into it.

But was there some specific thing that led Mozilla to want to do this? Yeah, so there's a few different things that might be worth going into there. One is, you know, why open standards are important. And the second one is why the GPU is important. And so I think we'll start with the GPU. So if you look at sort of, you know, Flash with CPU-bound, I don't believe there was a way to do anything with the GPU and Flash. You had actually, I don't know if you remember, aviary or companies like that,

you know, I think that they're kind of this awkward mill space of trying to create a creative tool and design it like as for professionals, but the technology hadn't caught up enough for them to actually be able to do it in a way that professionals needed. It wasn't performance enough. It was too slow. It couldn't handle the complexity of the file formats people needed. And so without the ability to interface the GPU, you couldn't use creative tools in this way online. You couldn't run video games in your browser online. Right. And so that's, I think, just a really key unlock.

Right. The other thing, though, I think is for open standards, right? So, like, you might say, okay, well, why not have, like, a plugin for a browser that makes it so you can access a GPU? And I think just fundamentally, one thing that I really appreciate about Moselle and the way they push the web forward, which is now something I think that most companies represent is like there's a desire to actually have open standards that make it so that we can all sort of share the spec implementation for how this works.

And now we have WebGL and not just Mozilla Firefox, but also Chrome and Safari and Brave, whatever. And in those browser wars, Mozilla came out of Netscape, they open sourced it, AOL had bought it for those people who don't know the history. And then Google had a secret project, Chrome, which they did in stealth for a couple of years, launched it on the world.

And now they are the number one browser in the world, by far. That's my belief. I know the most recent stats, but yeah, Chrome is doing quite well. But Firefox continues to do well as well. Now, there are two different standards, though, right? You have Mozilla standard, and then you have chromium. Is that the open source project that Chrome is based on? Yeah, there's chromium.

But WebGL is an interface that you can actually use across all of them. And so we write Figma once. Right. We actually write it in C++ and compile through MScriptin to WebAssembly, which is another standard. Yep. And making it so that you're able to basically have the ability to run bytecode in the browser. And with that, we're able to make it super efficient and then use WebGL to render everything. Got it.

And we would write that once and then it kind of like runs everywhere, which is sort of the original premise of like something like Java. But now you're able to do the browser with everything being sandboxed. And so if you're on a Chromebook, if you have everything. I'm Chromebook crazy. Yeah, I love Chromebook. I have the new one, the Pixel Book. Yep. Go or Pro?

Who knows Go, I think? Anyway, the new one is amazing. Yeah. Especially if you get 16 gigs of RAM. And then I have all Chromeboxes in our office and I connect them to Dell monitors, like the giant 30-inch Dell monitors. And people get freaked out that they're no longer on Mac OS. And then they use it for a week and they're like, my machine has not crashed.

I have 100 windows open. I have a giant monitor and I don't need to reboot my computer and it's just rock solid. What do you think is the future of Chrome OS? Do you use that yourself? Do you think it's going to become a thing? I have gone through periods of using it.

I'm currently on Mac, but I've spent time like maybe three or four years ago to challenge myself. I spent a few months on just using a Chromebook. And then it was sufficient for my workflow at that point except for wasn't great at signing things. There was no way to open a PDF and insert a signature,

which I needed a lot of that time because we're hadn't quite implemented this process. But I think now we have web apps for that. Yeah. Yeah, there's a few other things that were sort of random. I wanted a ability then at the time to do a code editor and be able to have a shell and now you can do that on Chrome OS. Yeah, no, I mean, it has the whole stack now. So I actually believe that outside of like hardcore finance use cases, we're going to see ChromeOS actually get to the point where more people are using it.

And I think it's sort of like a hidden gem that most people don't actually pay attention to. It's infecting schools because in a school, you log in with your Google account, whether it's Google Docs or Gmail, and your entire desktop just shows up. All your bookmarks, everything, your cloud, everything is just there. Then you log out if you're logged in as a guest and it's gone. So the idea that you have a computer with a desktop and you left something on your desktop and you have to go home to get it, but you've got a remote into your desktop goes away as a concept, which is incredible. Or if you have one computer there, so we have one computer in that. house that's shared, like in the domestic office, and everybody uses it. So you go to log in and it's got everybody's little icon on the bottom. You log in, boom, and you're up and running.

Well, the other thing I think people ignore about Chrome OS and Chromebook is that they've gone through this, like very complex provisioning processes for school, right? If you think about kids lose laptops, like, they get damaged, all this kind of crazy stuff happens to it. Yeah. If you can handle that scenario, you can handle the enterprise scenario. And also, for sure, ChromeOS is way more secure than a lot of other systems. Right. Because it's all sandbox in the browser. And so I actually think there could be an incredible enterprise play there in the future.

And so I keep watching for Google to do that. I mean, they haven't done it yet. And how does Figma work in Chrome just perfectly? Flawfully. And that's one of the things that people say why they don't go to Chrome, where they don't give up their ridiculously priced Mac computers, is because they're tied to the Adobe Suite. Yep. Are you seeing people leaving the Adobe Suite and moving to Figma?

Yeah. We're seeing people leave lots of different platforms, whether it's, Adobe or, you know, their competing platform of choice to adopt a cheaper computer, we're seeing, like, our vision for Figma is to make design accessible to everybody. And so that's a really key component of it is to make it so that regardless of where you're coming from, you can use Figma, wherever you are. When we get back from this quick break, I want to know how you see yourself in terms of competition with Canva, which has infected our organization, probably by use of terms right

now, but it really has spread like wildfire here. And then how do you compete against the Adobe suite and their new $20 a month or whatever it is to have the creative cloud? We'll get back on this we can start it. Listen, your business is going to need to pivot at times. You're going to need to be able to move quick and stay on goal and hit those targets. And sometimes it's impossible to meet those deadlines because your team's not big enough and there's too much work to be done. Well, where do you go to find that on-demand talent? How much is it going to cost? And And can you be sure they're going to deliver? That's always the problem when you have to hire freelancers.

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Okay. Thanks again, Fiverr. All right, Dylan Field is here. He is the CEO and co-founder of Figma, which is, what is your one line for Figma? Yeah. Figma is a way to collaboratively design applications, websites. It's anything you want in the browser. So when I think of Figma, should I be thinking of it as a competitor to the Adobe Creative Cloud or collaborative with that?

Or is it a competitor to something like InVision or on the margins, Canva? Because when I started in graphic design, we were using like Illustrator, Photoshop and PageMaker and all this other stuff. And then I stopped doing it myself. I have people doing it now. But once in a while, I get a link to, say, InVision or Figma. Who are your competitors? And how do you position all of this? Because it feels like a lot of the work I used to do with designers is being done by my rank and file, you know, folks, a salesperson or an operation or somebody from operations makes something in Canva.

Or I get something from an actual real designer in InVision or Figma. What is what's happening in the space and how do you make your two by two matrix, you know, as we talk about and start of the two by two matrix, X, Y, like, you know, where it's cheap or easy to use or simple, whatever. How do you break down the competition here? Well, first and foremost, I'll say that I think everyone's trying to make their things cheap and easy to use right now. Cheap and easy is, yeah, I mean, that's like I think the goal for everyone in the space. You know, it's definitely been our intention from the start.

You know, again, the vision is make design accessible to everyone. And so that implies that it's simple and anyone can pick this up. That said, like, first of all, just we don't see Canva as a competitor, really. there hasn't been a single deal that we've ever gone up against Canva before that I know of. That's for civilians.

Non-designers. I mean, we have a lot of non-designers that use figma too. Oh, okay. Designers and non-designers. I think potentially it's just different use cases that you use them both for.

Okay. But we do see everything else you mentioned. So we see Adobe all the time, a variety of tools that we see, you know, Illustrator, Photoshop, XD. We see Sketch. We see InVision.

And a lot of other tools, too. I mean, there's a sort of crazy big stack people have to put together because you have your storage tool maybe it's like a big cloud company you have your asset creation tool

which is maybe like an Adobe product or sketch you have maybe a prototyping tool like in Vision and there's a sort of a long tail there of applications

and we're not ever going to do everything in prototyping but you know we partner with a lot of these too there's like handoff tools because you want to

communicate your work to a developer so you have like Zepplin you've got Avicode there's version control tools that's really interesting

a designer will go into Figma and make an app. Let's say they make a meditation app like Calm. Yeah. Then what happens when it goes from, okay, I made it in

Figma, and then there's a group of developers in Romania or Brazil that I'm working with and I outsourced it. How does it work that handoff? Explain it to us. Yeah, so in Figma, you just send them a link. And that's kind of the beautiful part is like I can just send you a link to my document.

You can go be inside the document as a developer and you can then like measure distances of things. You can export you know, different areas of the product that you want to be able to use in code. You can actually export out and like read off CSS, iOS, you know, Android code as well. I think, you know, if another use case is kind of interesting that might be useful for you, for example, is if you're on the marketing side. All the time I hear of like CEOs and marketers that are just starting off and they are

collaborating with the designer in Figma where the designer might be doing more bulk of the design work then the marketing person or the product person or the CEO is like changing copy and they're actually interfacing that way. But I've also started to hear of a lot of different companies that I've talked with where it's like a first time founder or someone who's just kind of like starting off. And they are actually using Figma from day one. They have no design training, but they've realized that this is the way they're going to build up their app is in Figma. And they use it as sort of like for a variety of use cases, both for, you know, working through the design, but also through like as sort of like a visual whiteboard almost.

Yeah, like let's sketch something up here. Let's try to mock something up. But also it's a way to organize their ideas sometimes. Like I've seen some people that are using it in like very creative ways. I've also seen teams use it. Like especially right now with all the COVID stuff going on. Right. Everybody's home.

Like I saw earlier today, I saw somebody that was like organizing a bookshelf for their team virtually where they're basically just like we've got brickshelves around us right now. They're literally creating a bookshelf and figma. and everyone with the team was, like, putting in books that they liked. Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah, it was really cool. Or, you know, we have people that are doing, like, like, like, petitionary games and, like, stuff like that in Figma.

Yeah, just, like, all these sort of ways to have fun to and hang out in a space. Did sign up spike during this crisis over the last two weeks? We've got to stay home. We've already had, like, some pretty great growth going into this, and we've seen that continue. So I don't know if it's like... It didn't increase. I don't know if there's...

I haven't yet found much correlation in between, like, consistent. And, yeah. Well, I mean, like, there's a few deals that definitely. like some smaller deals that people are like, oh, you know, budget cycles are weird right now. We're going to put off changing. Oh, right. But then I've also seen on the other side of that, like, some companies have been like, okay, this is the time to actually accelerate into this.

Right. And they're, you know, pinging their legal people being like, can you please review these documents so we can get this in right now? Because like we can't wait any longer. We're all no longer in the office. We need to be together. Yeah. I think I've seen a couple of my investments reported back to me that the number of people

trialing their software for social. subscriptions went two or three X. Wow. And these are like consumery kind of subscription services, which is amazing. And here somebody just said they just had, this is a tweet for those who said, we just had the best Friday evening playing remote Figma Pictionary. Yep. And this person was like coffee maker, tsunami ruler.

It's pretty hilarious. Let me ask you this. How long does it take somebody to get up and running and be proficient enough in Figma? to design an iPhone app back to that like, I'm going to make Calm a meditation app or something or Sam Harris is waking up meditation app. How long does it take to make an app of that sophistication, which I would put at medium, right?

It's not like it's Uber where you have a lot of crazy data sources and stuff like that, but it's, you know, it's not a one function app. Well, as a fan of like that sort of app like Calm, Headspace, et cetera, like I think I'm just thinking about the interfaces. I mean, I think to go from zero to learn how to, to replicate that in Figma. Yeah. You can do that in a few hours, probably.

Now, if you want to go to the point where you're a designer that's able to create a new experience of that quality, well, that's the only years, right? Because, like, that's actually a craft. That's the craft, right. So, you can do that in years. I'll be very impressed to want to hire you. Yeah. So people can get up and running in a couple of hours and have some level of proficiency.

As a SaaS business, right, you charge per person per month. Per seat? Per seat. What does it cost? proceed for months? So it's different tiers. So it's free for individuals, up to a few people. Got it. So if like you're just like watching us or listening to this and you want us try it, there's literally no downside. Got it. If you get to the point where you're at a few editors, $15. Actually, you can do multiplayer mode even when drafts. Once it gets to three people,

then we charge you for basically a pro license and says $15 a month per editor or $12 a month a month if you commit annually. So it's essentially free. It's pretty cheap. bucks a month. Yeah, a year. A year, yes. A hundred feet bucks a year. If you're doing a startup company, and even if you had the most modest of, the most modest of funding, 25K from your aunt, like, you can afford 500 bucks a year for the three of you

to be on it, right? And then also, if you're an enterprise company and you need more sophisticated security control, stuff like that, then it's $45 a month per editor. So there's a little bit of a price increase there. Oh, yeah. But also the value that you're getting is also. a lot more as well. Got it.

And so that's $600 a seat per year or something like that, $5,600. Yeah. Which puts you in the creative cloud kind of versus Adobe kind of space. I mean, we're still significantly cheaper than Adobe. Oh, yeah? What is Adobe charge for something? It's all over the place. Because we pay, what, $25 a month or something, I think?

You probably have like a skew where you're only a few different apps. Yeah. So there's like a bundle where it's sort of a top photography bundle for like, I think, $10 or something. Yeah. But then there's other sort of, there's like an educational skew, there's like a business skew, there's like a, you know, skew for other stuff. I heard you before talking about a little bit about like, oh, getting through legal and all the stuff. Yep.

Is SaaS at this point as a category for buyers, cookie cutter enough that you can just say, yeah, go to this URL and you can buy 500 seats? Or do people who are buying hundreds of seats need to have a salesperson, walk them through every, everything and make a specific contract for that company. This is a great question. So I have a lot of thoughts in this. Figma's oriented towards being a bottom up model. And we're trying to make the business as efficient as possible. Explain that to people who don't know in SaaS, software as a service,

basically a subscription like NetSkip, like Netflix. Yep. What does bottom up mean in this regard? Yeah. So bottom up means that people in your organization are able to adopt it and they're able to spread it without having to be to like necessarily get a lot of buy-in from others around them. And, you know, if you're able to do that on a credit card and people are able to be empowered to actually get their own tools, hopefully they're able to first trial Figma, for example,

for free, and they can go, like, have a purchasing conversation with somebody if they need to. That's like our ideal scenario is they're not even paying for it. And then they're like, this is actually really good. Like, let's go bring this into the organization. Let's have this entire team on this. And for what it's worth, we also see a lot of people spread Figma when they change jobs. They'll bring it with them. Yeah, of course. You know, people are hopping in between jobs every few years and they're bringing the tools they like. But anyway, so to go back to the question about bottom up and legal and sort of what the buy decision looks like, we're seeing a range of behaviors right now. There's definitely a ton of companies that need to spend multiple months or

whatever evaluating software, go through rigorous process, especially at larger corporations. And we've got a great, amazing sales team that's, like, able to partner with them on that. Got it. We also see customers. What is their main concern? Like, what are they trying to accomplish with all that friction? So, I mean, like, security is a big one. Ah.

So I want to make sure that if you are a cloud provider, that you're going to be as secure as possible. And so that's something that, like, for example, we've gone through, like, the Stock 2 process now. Which is, it's basically just a process to make sure that you're able to be as secure as possible, even though you're hosted in the cloud. So you have all of my designs. I'm, I don't know, Nike or something. I'm building a bunch of apps and stuff. I have to trust that your people are not looking at my designs,

just leaking it or selling it, or the Chinese government or the Saudi government hasn't put a plant into Figma like they did at Twitter. The Saudis actually did this. You hear that story? No, I did. Crazy. Yeah.

And so there's SOC2, I was simplifying before. It encompasses a wide variety of controls, everything from like hiring, offer approvals, all the way to like how are your servers run and what are your runbooks for those. Oh, really? So how do you, yeah. Do you worry about that? that. I'm curious, like this international espionage that you could actually have like a

Russian, Saudi or Chinese spy working for you at Figma? It's crazy that we even think of it. Yeah. I mean, I think we're pretty small scale and I think, but that said, we're designing the process to make sure that we are very validated with every hire we make. We do background checks and everybody, like making sure that we're able to feel secure about the data that we're hosting. But just to go back to your earlier point, because I think it's a really good one. One thing that we've been working towards and we're going to launch soon is the ability to also self-serve onto our highest tier, which right now you have to talk to a salesperson for. Right. And so it's just really important, I think, for a lot of companies to be able to, like,

have that self-serve motion for every tier because not everyone wants to talk to a salesperson. If you do, great, they're there. But if you don't want to talk to some salesperson, like, why do you have to? I just want to order my Tesla online. Like to me, the, I mean, I mean, I mean, literally I had to buy a minivan, and my biggest fear with buying the minivan was going to a deal or ship. And I was like, oh, my God. You don't want to be sold to. You don't want to have to, like, get the upsell, whatever. You wouldn't be controller or nesting.

Or sit in a room, like I'm in part of some prison experiment where they're going to leave and some other person is going to come in. You literally feel like you're being accused of murder, and they're like setting a good cop in, then a bad cop in. And then you're like, okay, sign these papers. And I'm like, what am I signing? Do I need a lawyer here? It just feels like horrible, that experience. But I think, so you're saying the big companies will even come and self-served to buy 500 licenses or something. Well, we haven't seen that yet because it's on shipped, but that's my hope is that we'll start to see more of that.

How do you deal with, and we'll do this when we get back from the break, but I'm an investor in a company called capish.com. Okay. Have you heard of that? I have not. Okay. So what capish.com is doing run by Austin, Peter Smith, who worked for Man Inside, or with Man Inside, I should say, they are tackling the, disparity in how much does this SaaS software cost? Because in our founder, Secret Slack, people, the number one sport for startups is to compare who got the cheapest price in negotiating with a

SaaS company and then go and say, my friend got it for this amount. I need you to imagine. Well, that's a really easy for answer for Figma. We don't do discounts. Yeah. And so here is at all. Here is Capiche and Secret Society for SaaS power users. And here they are talking to each other about you can apply for access but you have to go in and you have to, in order to become a member of the community, you have to give your pricing.

When we get back, let's talk about this issue and then what happens to, since you already answered the one before the break my teaser, I had a second one. So I'm going to be burned by a second teaser, which is SaaS overload.

Is it becoming a thing where people have too many SaaS products and are going to get burned out on subscription. Subscription burnout when we get back on this week of service. It's been a little tough for startups right now. We all know that. And Zendesk is trying to be super helpful during this time. Many of us have had our minds distracted. It's a lot going on. But now more than ever, it's important to build and maintain great customer relationships. You know that in a crisis.

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Dylan Feld, Field is here. I'm sorry. He's a zoink. Z-O-I-N-K. You got zoink, huh? I did got zoink. Wow. Pau wasn't available? I don't think so. I didn't try, though. Zy-s-ing. It's pretty great, actually. Are you active on the Twitter? I am active on the Twitter. More active than I should be. Yeah, so you're addicted, aren't you? It's addicting the mentions of Vigma. Of course. So I look at it way too much. Let me ask you this. What's your personal stack? You wake up. You pick up your phone,

obviously, the first thing. I try on to, but yes, a lot of times I do. Okay. My fiance's been trying to get me not to do that. Exactly. So now you've got the phone in your hand. Uh-huh. Give me your order. Uh, Gmail, Twitter, Slack.

Well, SMS, you're not in there, huh? Hey, yeah, I mean, probably, okay occasionally, but, like, I'm not in an SMS as much. So you're, you got Slack. I like Signal a lot as well. Oh, really? Yeah. I try to default my friends to signal. I've been trying to get everyone's transition over.

Why is that? Uh, it just seems more secure. More secure, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I started to have some friends moved to Signal. Mm-hmm. And specifically celebrity friends. I think after all that celebrity hacking,

like anybody I know who's like in the entertainment industry after the Sony hack and after, you know, all those ICloud hacks were done, they all started moving over to those kind of services. Yeah, I find myself going to SMS, I message, and then going over to Twitter, then email on Slack. Because I like to be at my desktop when I do Slack. because it typically requires me to have two or three windows open.

And like my action items tend to be getting into a Google drive or getting into a Google sheet or, you know, firing up. I started using Notion. Have you used Notion at all? You like it? Yep. It's like I always love wikis, but nobody would ever learn wiki text or wiki markup. You know wiki, like you double bracket stuff. And I always love that wiki markup language.

And Notion, I got to touch the mouth. I see touching the mouse as like personal sign of failure. Well, you should talk to Notion about that. I should talk to Notion. The notion wanted to be. I'm trying to get the founder of Notion on the podcast. Yeah, this is no? I guess he's a little shy, which is fine.

But they were like, oh, we have a new product coming out for startups and we'll send you a product person. I was like, no. No, you don't get just to be on because I invited the founder. You don't just get to send your marketing person or whatever. Founders only. No VPs. This week in startups, right? It's crazy.

Like, would you want to send your like VP of product here? I mean, my VP product is like way better than I am. I'm sure he's fantastic, but this is not the VP of product. They're way more impressive. It's not the VP of, but he can't answer or she, he or she cannot answer the questions about how you started the business. We're here to tell the story of the startup. Fair enough.

Now, I want to get into two things, the funding of the company. Yeah. Let's put that on pause for a second. Before we went to break, I had a question about, About SaaS overload? SaaS overload, SaaS burnout. I, during this COVID crisis, said, that's it. Give me a list of every single SaaS product.

Yep. Then I said there's a website called Privacy.com and another one where you can set. Because I just saw a SaaS provider just whacked us for $1,200. And I guess they had increased their price. And they assumed we had all these accounts. They were doing kind of the gnarly thing where, they charge you for accounts but not usage. Yep.

And that really upsets me because I like Slack's model where they're just like, this is how many people you use. So I never, it's very divisive because some people like SlackS model and some people don't. I like SlackS model too. We're not doing it for Figma because we've actually heard people that said they don't like it. Got it. Because it's variable cost.

You don't know what's going to come. Explain the issue to somebody who doesn't understand what we're talking about right now. Yeah, so the Slack's model is that you've got active user pricing. Now, the question is like, okay, Is there enough trust to know that there's an active user? We've definitely looked at the model for Figma. And it's something that I think could be really interesting. To me, it incentivized the right behaviors.

Like if you get to the point where, you know, anyone can become an active user, and then you only charge the people that are using the service actively. That seems like a good thing. It seems very easy to talk about, right? So in Slack's model, if you are in a Slack room and you open Slack and the green light goes on, you get charged that month. even if it's for 30 seconds. Yep.

I wonder if there's a like a minimum threshold. Like, you have to be honest with that. I don't know what it is because I've always, I think like the sort of flip side of it for us at least. Yeah. Figma, like if you try to rip slack out like you'd have like people protest, you know. Of course. I just can't not even be able to hear. But they don't turn your account off.

It's only if you use it. So for Figma, the equivalent would be if I clicked on a link and I opened figma.com and I looked at something on Figma. Right now, so viewers are free in Figma. Okay. So editors are the only ones who. charge for. Great. So if you edit something, but we're not doing that yet.

Right now it's like, right now it's like, okay, if you're an editor, you know, you can kind of restrict it before your next period. And if you restrict it, we kind of, we just assume that you're in good attention and not trying to, like, cheater system. But if somebody came to, it's like, hey, you have, you build this for three editors for the last six months, you would give them a credit, right? Yeah. If we thought it was, like, really clear that it was wrong.

But, but also, you know, if it's, like, depends on the case by case basis, too. This is what you got to do is that you got to build, the SaaS industry now has to build trust. I completely agree with that. They don't send a monthly notice of your bill by email. They should do that. They don't send the monthly recap of who used the product. And Slack is the goal center. They send you your monthly utilization every month.

Yeah. So I love that about Slack is the trust part. Yeah. I think it's hard to get all of the different parts this right for definitely for sure to figure out, okay, what are all the controls of like when somebody is a full user of the product? Right. Because in a sort of hybrid world, what does that mean? Right. maybe in Slack example,

it's like single channel guests versus multi-channel guests versus a full user, et cetera. Every SaaS product seems to have some version of this. Right. I think another example of it. For you, it's editors versus viewers. Yeah, it's a simple version.

But there's also like, okay, what if you have someone that's just like on one project in the team, there's other variants as well. And then there's, I think, in addition to it, I think there's a lot of different touch points that a company, like people forget how large Slack is now. Yeah. And so making sure that you're able to really have a team

that's dedicated to like increasing trust. Like I would give us like a like a B minus C plus right now on this. And that's, I'm a harsh grader for sure. But I definitely think there's things we can still do because we are doing them to make sure that we increase trust for customers and transparency. And like obviously it's what we want, especially in a time like this. Yeah. Where we've got people that are. It's such a no-brainer.

Yeah. Especially when there's downturn. People are really looking at costs. Yep. I think it's super important that you know exactly what your bill is going to be. And that if there's not like some of prizes there. And so we're really trying to make sure that we're clear about that. What was the name, Nick?

producer Nick of Broder's company. I forgot the name. Do not pay. So there's do not pay.com. Josh is awesome. Josh is awesome. He's a big Twitter guy. Yeah, he's great.

It's a good as a human in person too. Oh, is he? You know? Yeah. Oh, you're friendly? We're both teal fellows. You're both teal fellows. Yeah.

Wow. There we go. And now we opened it up. How does one become a teal fellow? Well, take us into that. You apply? Yes. I apply.

I applied when I was 20. Okay. I'm 28 now. How did you become of the T.L. fellowship and Peter Tiel at the age of 20? I literally just applied. So, I mean, I was the second class of Tiel Fellows. But how did you find out that that even existed in the world? I think TechCrunch, honestly.

Sort of a tech crunch or something. Yeah. And then I was the first time I saw it. And then a guy from the Tiel Fellowship, that was one of the fellows from the first class, reached out to me through a mutual friend. We grabbed coffee for like literally five minutes. and he, because he was late. And then he's like, you got to be a Till Fellow.

I'll text you about it later. What does it mean to be a Till fellow? What do you, what happens? You get $100,000 over two years to start a company. And it's non-delutive. There's no equity investment. So it's a gift from Peter Thiel. Yeah, basically from the Teal Foundation.

Got it. So he gives you, and then how many are there? And is there some secret 20 per year. 20 per year. And then in addition to just like the money, what I think is actually more valuable is there's a community behind it. Got it. people like spend time together.

And they take how many pints of blood a quarter? Zero for me so far. I can't talk about the people in the new cohorts. You can't tell the new cohort. No, that was the joke of Silicon Valley. Now, what would you say they're selecting on? What are they optimizing for? I think they pick them.

I honestly think it changes every year. Okay. And. Why do they pick you, do you think? What did they tell you? You're so iconoclastic? Are you like an alt-writer? Are you an independent thinker?

Do you are contrarian? I try to have met a contrarian, actually. Well, they actually had an essay question on, and by the way, the alt-right didn't even exist when I... That's true. Yeah, that's true. It's pretty dated. But when they basically had the famous Peter Till question of like, what's one thing you believe about the world to be true that others don't believe or something? What is you right?

I thought I'd be met a contrarian. So I wrote an essay about how I don't like chocolate. You were... You don't like chocolate. I don't like chocolate. Oh my. So I wrote a full-on, I know, sorry. This is bullshit now.

Honestly, it was great to meet you. But so you said you don't like chocolate. Did I pass on investing in a favorite? No, no. But we met in O'Reilly when I was in high school. Wait, wait. We met when? Uh, food camp.

We met at foo camp when you were in high school, when we were all up there playing Werewolf. Yeah. Oh, my God. I'm remembering you were like a high school kid. Yeah. I have a Mahalo mug. Or rather, my mother has Mahalo mug.

That is hilarious. Thank you for my PTSD. Sorry. It was like my failed startup. That got to 10, we were at $10 million a year. Wow. In run rate before Google just said, Mahalo, ehow, how stuff works.

Yeah, it was a big change. Answers.com. You all are ranking too high and off. And they took 80, 90% of our traffic overnight. Then they took the answer. from our websites and put them in the one box five years later. And now when you go to Google and you type in how many people died of coronavirus, they put the number up top.

Yep. That was literally the idea for Mahalo. I'm sorry to trigger this. And I look back on it and I just think, wow, they, what a sinister group of people, Matt Cuts and these guys lied and said, we were web spam. When we did everything according to the books, we would index pages only when they hit 400 words or more. Because they were like, oh, there's too many stubs in there.

Like, people are coming to landing pages that aren't filled out, like a short Wikipedia page. So we're like, fine. I told him out, well, just no index anything under 400 words, everything above 400 words, then we'll index it. We'll just write the software to do that. Yep. And he'd lied to my face. And they literally, if there's somebody who wants to do an antitrust, just go back in time to them pushing Yelp down, putting Ehow, Mahalo, everybody else out of business, or moving them

down the page and anchoring them and then replacing them with the one box. And the sinister thing is they use their technology to find the answer on your page and then put an abstract on the top. And if you opted out of that, they wouldn't index you. So they gave you no choice. It was like one of the most sinister moves in the history of, it taught me a lot about business, which is, you know, when you're up against one of these big companies, they will lie to your face. And it doesn't matter who you knew. I knew Sir again. I know Larry.

I knew Marissa. I knew everybody at the company. And I called them all. And I was like, I have to lay off 100 writers. who are working from home for $15 an hour because you just took 80% of our revenue away and we've been partners for years. What are you guys doing?

And they're like, yeah, we don't know who's the charge. I'm like, well, can you get somebody on the phone? Like, well, Matt cuts. And that's like, yeah, you know, we got reports of web spam. I'm like, which page? Yeah, so somebody asked, what is Foo Camp? O'Reilly had friends of O'Reilly. Tim O'Reilly would run this camp,

and then a bunch of nerds would go there and they would have an unconference where you just put on the whiteboard what you were gonna talk about. Wow, you were just a kid back then. How old were you at that? 16, 17, 17. Yeah, something like that.

How did you wind up at Foucab at that age? I grew up in Sonoma County, and my friend's dad was the IT guy for Riley. Is it the IT guy for Riley still? That's incredible. Yeah. So cool. So Teal gives you 100K. Yep.

And is that what really made you an entrepreneur? Did that send you on your mission? So, I mean, I was definitely like already interested in tech from Riley days and gained to interface the people like you and other entrepreneurs. I put 25K into the seed round, right? Right? How did I miss this? Sorry. How did I miss it? But I, but I got to work at a few different places. I worked at LinkedIn in the early days. Oh, wow. In summer of 2010, so I guess like not super early, but it was like a few hundred people, four people at that point. Look at you. Hustler.

Worked at Flipboard summer after that. Right. That was an awesome experience too. Went back to school for semester. Went back to Flipboard for six months. Where did your school? I was at Brown. Oh, wow. Very cool. Making your own degree and then you just held on. No, I'm doing computer science math. Yeah. But I had some friends that did that. And then I went to Flipboard, back to Flipboard, because I wanted to do more design work and product work. I was doing CS and math in school,

but wasn't sure, like, that's what I wanted to do long term, be an engineer. I was okay at it, but I also saw that a lot of people were, like, way better than I was. And also, like, I just was really interested in product and design. And Flipboard was willing to, like, give me a design internship when I really had not much experience in design at that point. That's amazing.

And so took him up on that. And then while I was there, started talking with my now co-founder, then TA, the guy named Evan Wallace who had been doing a lot of of web jail experiments. And we were tired talking about like, you know,

what we ever started a company. He was the one person I would like think of as a co-founder because he was brilliant and humble and kind just like an amazing person. I thought, okay, let's go figure out if this is something we want to do. Right.

And the TIL Fellowship I applied to kind of on a whim because I thought, okay, if we end up going on this path, like there's the 1% chance that we do this. Like in the world we do, like we probably want some cash. Yeah.

So go like pay for bills and stuff like that. Yeah. So I applied, we originally applied, I think, with an idea around drones, because, like, it's 2012, 2011, sorry, 2011 at the time. Yeah, and it's like the two different technologies without were cool were like drones and webGL. Yeah. And so the drone idea was pretty terrible. And then like, I think within a few weeks after I apply with that, I said, okay, actually, we're not going to do that. And Evan and I have been talking about like, okay, the only way you can really do a drone business is, it seems like surveillance is probably the only thing. Yeah, it seems like It's a bad one.

We're not interested in that. I don't understand why we haven't gotten drones for non-lethal police work yet. I know that we really don't like the idea of robots doing police work. But when you think about mentally ill patients, we call them emotionally disturbed patients, EDPs, I think is the term on the ambulance. They would say, hey, this has you got an EDP. Be aware you want to wait for the police because this could be a false situation. Why we don't have non-lethal drones that can.

can just fly above somebody and drop a net. I know it seems cruel, but it's a lot less cruel than somebody getting shot. The things that Morterson drones doing right now, sorry, this is a bit tangent. No, let's do it. Changes are great. There's, like, my friend Starr is working on a company, I believe, working on, like, how do you actually do drone deliveries of, like, critical medical supplies? Yeah.

That, I think is, like, extremely cool. Yeah, we had somebody on the podcast who was doing the one with the fixed wing drones that can be launched from these little, like, almost like, rubber band spring things, and then be landed, you kind of hook them. and they're so cheap and they can go so far as opposed to battery operated quadcopters or whatever, but these vetoes are coming and we're actually going to have the Chinese veto company that's already putting humans in these quadcopters on the podcast later this year. All right, when we get back from this break, I want to talk about how you funded the company

because you recently got Sequoia to do the series C after they turned you down for the B. I want to know how you got the number one venture capital firm in the history of Silicon Valley to say yes after they said no when we get back on this weekend startups. Silicon Valley Bank is built to help move bold ideas forward and faster for more than 35 years Silicon Valley Bank has helped startups go from the seed stage to Series A and beyond. With that kind of experience, they know how fast the world of innovation can change. That's why they offer services that can expand with you at your pace, which is probably a fast pace if you're listening to this podcast.

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Ideas. Bank here. Okay, let's get back to this amazing episode. All right. Dylan Field is here triggering my PTSD from Mahalo.com days. Sorry for that. It's okay. You know, it's interesting about that business. We did a bunch of YouTube videos and they still make... I think it might be how I got the mug.

It's probably how you get the mug. We're still making a ton of money every month, like maybe 10 or 15 grand, just from the YouTube videos being up there. Wow. Because they're so well indexed. And we have one site called X-Fit, X-F-I-T, YouTube.com says X-W, we have three million subscribers.

Wow. And we haven't posted new videos in five years. And I'm trying to find somebody to buy it or partner with me on it. So if you were into fitness and you want to do this, let's go. But what was interesting about that is that, you know, I talked to Sergey Brin about, this is back in the day when he was still super involved. And he's like, well, what would you do better or different? And I said to him, like, if you're going to make changes, a way to be a better partner,

is to simply make beta.gul.com, having a budsman, as opposed to Matt Cutts kind of lying to us in our faces. I know you like Matt. I like Matt's very, I know Matt's widely liked, but he lied to my face, and I'm going to never stop saying that because he cost a bunch of people their jobs.

He did apologize to me later. He wrote me an apology letter and said they didn't handle it the way he thought they should have, and he was sorry for what I went through. But, I mean, it still cost 100 people of their jobs because he lied to my face about us having, like, being spammers. But, you know, I said just if somebody would use your platform and do something like tag spamming,

you know, on Instagram, They put like 50 hashtags and they have nothing to do with what you're following. Yep. And they're just doing it to get caught up in search. If somebody did that on your site, in the beta.com, it would say, it would flag them and let you see it. Yeah. And say, these are the things that have been removed. And here's your site and here are the things we're concerned about and communicate that to people.

I think so I think. And they don't communicate that. Well, so just to kind of like level up a bit for the topic, I think there's actually something that's a gem here for all companies. Yeah. And it's something I'm thinking a lot about in terms of design. Yeah. So for Figma, one thing we do in our product process is try to just like get features out in front of the community as fast as we can. Not only not to just ship them, but also just to get the feedback on them.

Right. But people can get upset if you change stuff. Well, it's less about managing people being upset and more about getting to the point where you're building the best product. Yes. And I think that the thing that's going to be really interesting here, so one thing we're trying to do with Figma is talk more and create more of a movement around what we're calling open design. What is open design? So basically open design is like a few different things. is how do I become, in my organization, how do I design more openly?

But also in the context of the world, how do I have a design process that my users, my customers can actually be part of? Right. But doesn't that be more transparent? Isn't the downside to that being transparent that you're educating your competitors? It depends, right? Like another way to think about it is like you're actually becoming more anti-fragile. You're creating a community that's more loyal to you.

Right. And you're working with them and partnering them from the long term to make the product that's best for them. Explain to me to what anti-fragile means. means. It's kind of like, I actually don't know if I have like a good one-line definition. Do you? Well, it's Talib's idea that there are certain, there's, there are systems that do better in times of crises or with volatility. Yep. So if something is volatile like the moment now, what does better in volatility?

So are there cities in the world or people who think and who are designed for a volatile situation? So instead of being fragile, they're the opposite of fragile, which is not being necessarily. strong, it's being resilient and strong in the face of a chaotic situation, right? It's a great definition. Yeah. I think that's the way he defines. I've always tried to, and you know what, I, I, I've listened to that book twice. And every time I listen to it, I get more from it. I kind of feel like his books, I think you kind of get them on the third reading. Huh. Okay, I'll get a few more times then. Yeah. Same with Black Swan. I mean, I think if you are living through what we're living through right now, the Black Swan is something you really need to

understand, which is just out of left field, your whole world can get turned upside down. How have you handled this at Figma? You have over 100 employees. You were a work in the office, mostly company. Yeah, we're 160 people. Yeah. We have maybe, you know, we have three people in Amsterdam. We have 10 peopleish that are remote, maybe a bit more. Now, of course, we're all remote. Yeah. I think there's a few things that we've done to handle it. So first and foremost, you know, as soon as we started seeing the graphs go up for San Francisco, just like a few cases, when you would meant and we said everybody goes work from home now. Did you do that before? Were you able to, did you do that when they did the quarantine before or after?

No, much before. Really? Before it. Wow. Yeah. So it was, I mean, it's like one of those things where if we're being over cautious here, this is completely okay. Yeah. And better to be over cautious and figure out how to do this. Isn't it amazing how quickly it flipped? It was like we were talking on Monday or Tuesday in our company about hosting our accelerator. And it was like, yeah, it's under 50 people. They said keep things under 50 people. The Warriors game is still happening.

Then I think it was that Wednesday night, which was, I think, the day before we were going to have the accelerator, I'm sitting there at home and they cancel the Warriors, not the Warriors game, they cancel a game at tip off because they got somebody's test results while the game was about to begin. And they just told everybody to go home. Yeah. It was crazy.

Yeah. But it's the right move, right? It was the right move, of course. I think the other things we've done in Figma, first of all, just like over communicating every chance we get. Sure. What are you saying as the leader? I mean, well, for us, we're thankful that so far our business hasn't been impacted.

So we've had a few deals, like I said, slowed down. A few deals have sped up. But overall net, it seems like things are growing roughly the same past. Nice thing about having a subscription business. I think in terms of anti-fragile, probably subscription businesses for remote products would be the anti-fragile in this market. Yeah. That's what we think we're seeing. We'll know more soon.

Yeah. But I think, and also I'll say this too, I think that, you know, the next few quarters, everyone's impacted. Sure. Because, you know, if people are, companies are laying off people, et cetera, which is the likely chance of what we'll see. Yeah. I think everyone's impacted even companies that thrive in a remote situation. If half of your companies lay off 10 or 20 percent of their employees, they're certainly going to reduce the number of seats. Of course, yeah. And then people who are not using the products might be looking at their monthly credit card bills and change. That's what I went through and I was doing with this Do Not Pay and Privacy.com. We're looking at those solutions right now. And both personally and at our companies, we're doing burner cards for each SaaS product with the amount we're currently paying. So if they try to do a dollar more, the card times out. And I'm doing this also for horrible customer support places like the New York Times and the

Wall Street Journal where they make you call them on the phone to cancel and then haranguing you for canceling. The Wall Street Journal is the worst. And the Wall Street Journal has all this weird, confusing pricing where you pay 30 bucks a month and then they pop it up to like 20 bucks a week or something. And all of a sudden you get this huge bill. And so I'm going through every single thing. And I think these companies charge 10, 20 bucks a month to have this service.

And I think that's going to become the gold standard is you just have a credit card for each of your SaaS providers, which means the SaaS providers need to behave back to our second or third segment. They need to be ethical, transparent, high integrity. sending the bills and then you don't surprise people and they won't use these tools, but this is the inoculation that people are using versus it. Do you think people, now that you're a work from home company, and you obviously did not, you were not all in for work from home, you believe in people being in the office and collaborating.

I think it's great for people being physical spaces together. Yeah. So you were not bought into this like other people are. Let me define that more. So I think bought into the possibility of it, but still think there's great benefits to being in an office. So how does that change when this crisis ends? in, I think, April 15th. Oh, man.

I think that'd be awesome if it's true. I think, well, Apple's opening their stores in the first two weeks of the rumor, and I don't know if it's been confirmed yet, but I heard some inside information. They're going to open Apple stores in the first two weeks. I think restaurants are going to start opening again, April 15th or so in that time frame.

And then I think Trump said something like, we'll be back for Easter. So I think people are going to get the test results back. We were sitting here on the 24th. I think people, last week was peak fear. in my mind. It could be this week for people, but I was experiencing peak for the last week. I don't want to be a downer here. Okay. Go ahead. But should I be? Yeah, do it. I mean, I think, Dylan, nobody knows. I mean, that's one thing we've learned here is nobody knows.

I think that we're going to see, I hope that for California and for other places that have put more restricted measures in place earlier, that we'll see, you know, sort of like the stabilization, the fact that you're talking about. Yeah. And hospitals won't be overloaded. I don't think that means that we can all just go back to work. go back to the way we were living before. Huh. Because I think we'll see a second wave effect. Right. Where there still is the virus out there and we'll start to see it spread again. And then hospitals will be overloaded then. So I think the, um, uh, you know, you think San Francisco is a chance San Francisco Bay Area, San Mateo County, et cetera, says two more weeks of this, four more weeks of this? I think it could be a lot longer potentially. And I think there could be

all the way to May or June. I don't know. I'm not sure. But it's, um, I think that there's also potential for if we start to see people disregarding the orders, I wouldn't be surprised. if we see enforcement. I think people aren't even thinking about right now. Yeah. But it's a, that would be civil unrest on a level that would be disturbing. I don't know.

It depends on sort of like how people think about the situation. But in any case, going back to sort of our comms, I mean, I think given that we've been very fortunate to be in a situation where, you know, we're doing well as a business, just trying to focus people on,

okay, look, we're safe right now. But we also understand that, you know, doesn't matter if we're safe or not. Like, your productivity is going to be related to the outside of events right now. And there's so much anxiety going on that like if you take a day off, if you, if you're a parent and you've got kids at home, like we know your productivity is going to plummet. That's what I told people. I was like, listen, here are credits for urban sitters. Here's like ways to offset that way, a thousand dollar bonus for everybody in the company

or stipend rather, just like you can use it to improve your work from home situation. Or if you can use it for other things if like that's what more is needed because these are times that the problem with child care is you shouldn't be bringing another child. We were thinking about getting extra child care at our house and we're like, we don't want to introduce another person. We're thinking about getting a tutor. And I think a lot of parents are going through this, which is, okay, a tutor sounds like a great idea. Except what if that tutor was out at a spin class last week or at a bar and or they just flew somewhere and they're non-syptomatic, asymptomatic and they're going to all of a sudden infect everybody. You can't bring a tutor in.

I think we're going to get so much testing online in the next 10 days. Because we did, I think, 50,000 tests yesterday or the day before. And that was on top of like 100. So we increased a third. And I think we're still doing 50,000 tests a day. I think we might get to 100,000 tests today. If we do that, we've blown away all testing in any country. Now imagine we have a million people tested in the major cities, et cetera. We're going to look at this and go, okay, here are the people who've been tested, have it and are no longer, you know, who are now, what do they call them, like the herd immunity or whatever.

We're going to start knowing who has it. People are going to, the fear is going to go down. I believe that we're not going to have, with the exception of New York, I don't think we're going to have overloading in the ICUs. Yeah, I hope that's right. And then people are going to go, I'm going to go back to work if we have enough distance between our desks. If people are wearing masks and here's the kicker, I think we're going to get into a show me your papers. And it's going to be, did you take a test and what were the results? And you have to be tested every 15 days.

If everybody gets tested every 15 days, we're going to have a really good handle where the pockets. are and imagine you got on the subway and had to show your papers and got your test, which is the forehead temperature. I think the question is like how much tests, how many tests are there? And also. Unlimited when they go to these new ones, the IGG test, wherever they're calling them. I'm not sure the regions I heard were limited. So that's why I'm asking about it.

They're limited now, but the amount coming online and the profit motive to do like at home tests and all this stuff has kicked in now. And so I think it's just going to be unlimited testing between 50. and 30 days. Anybody who wants a test, you want to have, you'll have 10 tests in your desk. I sure hope that's right. That sounds great. Yeah. Oh, it's absolutely going to happen. And the inside information I heard is that the ICUs in California and in Washington, they're starting to now empty. And they're not filling. Yeah, I mean, I've also, I mean, like my, New York's a problem. One of my ex-co workers, his wife is working in ICU right now. And where? As of, in King County.

And where's that? It's near Seattle. In Seattle. Near Seattle. Near Seattle. They don't have masks, like the hospitals are overflowing. So it's really, I think there's a lot of different information out there. Interesting. The number of tests went down dramatically in Washington. They're not giving, they only give tests to people who need them. Because of the supply, yeah. No, no.

Yeah, because of the supply, they only give them to people who have symptoms. And they don't have any more people with symptoms. So the number of people being tested is just plummeted down to like 20% or something. So they're definitely on the downside of the slope, but you're correct that it could kick back up. Yeah, so we'll see you. It's really, this is such a crazy time. Do you think? I'm really, again, feel very thankful that, like, things going well, but also, like,

my heart goes out to all the companies that are struggling right now. And it's a lot of friends that are, you know, both in tech, but also outside of tech that are having a really tough time. And so it's, anyway. I was talking, I was playing cards last night with my L.A. poker group. A lot of people are popping up, like, poker games and then putting on Zoom to do something at midnight with their friends. and one of them's in the restaurant business

and he was like Hakasan the great Chinese food restaurant and clubs laid off 16 or furloughed 1,600 people and David Chang laid off everybody or furloughed everybody. Everybody's laying off everybody. It's bonkers.

The restaurant business and that stuff. He told me in L.A. That 80, this is what he believed, 80% of restaurants in Los Angeles will shut down. I was like, how is that possible? But why don't they just not pay their rent revenue? So the landlords have been looking for reasons to kick out the old tenants.

Wow. Who have sweetheart deals. And they might be able to sell their building. So they are going to take this as an opportunity to foreclose on those restaurants. There's also like the second and third or effects. Right. So it's like, okay, well, for real estate, actually, what will supply shock do? And then also from there, will people actually be willing to go out and see these places right now in the first place?

Yeah. Or for construction. Like, can you actually create new buildings when there's not. like the workers to do that. Yeah. Or if people continue to have like pretty hardcore shelter in place restrictions. So I think we're just the start

and it'll be fascinating but also really scary to see what happens next. Yeah, I'm an optimist. I think, no, me too, but I think it might be a different time scale. The other thing I'm hearing about is that this chloroquine, the Z-Pak,

azantromycine, is I think I can pronounce it? And then zinc, this treatment, there's been some scattered reports that people are giving this treatment when they first have symptoms and seeing a hundred percent recovery rate. Now, these are anecdotal on small samples. But I think that's the other thing that happens. And one of the reasons why we are having a hard time judging the data coming out of China is probably

very hard to understand because they have incentives and that Chinese government isn't always 100 percent transparent. I'm laughing for reasons. It should be obvious to everybody. Also, newsflash, North Korea may not be giving out correct information. Kim Jong-un maybe didn't hit three holes in one on his first round of course. golf, as they famously printed. And Italy, you know, might not be the right test case to apply everywhere else because of

their older population, the fact that they didn't have a quarantine and they're smoking and there's a lot of personal contact. Those are all the theories I'm hearing from medical experts of why it went supernova there. So it may not go supernova here. And so then as time goes on, you start to get the treatments and you know how to treat. And then people now, because they're aware of it, are going to the hospital quicker. Whereas in Italy and China, they might have just said, you know what, I don't need to go to hospital. I'm fine.

I just got a little sore throat. I've had this before. It's no big deal. And then all of a sudden they have lung failure. And, you know, people might be going quicker to get tested. So it's really interesting. A note from one of our people, San Francisco, this is just unsubstantiated, but San Francisco hospitals, extra tents are full of homeless. Older at risk nurses sent home.

according to one of our people's neighbors. That's actually another thing is this homeless situation here. Can you imagine how that's spreading through the populations in L.A. and I mean, that's just crazy. Let's go to funding. I know it's a hard turn here, but we have to keep moving forward. I think it's very important that the economy keep moving forward because the second and third order affects here. If people like you or I, you know, other investors, other founders just decide, you know what, this is too hard.

Forget it. I'm not going to hire people. I'm just going to manage my business, not for growth. Yeah, well, the money is still there and looking for return. So I think that the venture markets, I mean, they'll change. Right. But I think it's not like nothing's going to get funded. Because especially with interest rates dropping even further, like, there's just nowhere else to put money in the stock market is not the place right now.

Why don't I have a mortgage? I'm like, wait a second. I don't understand if the Fed is zero. Not quite zero, but it's close. Right. Why are the mortgage is still at three and a half or something? Shouldn't those get much closer? Different rates, yeah.

They should get much lower. If they said we're going to do more All mortgages for the next year are going to be 1%. Man, you'd see a lot of activity. People would start mortgaging their houses and spending that money. I would. Yeah. Why don't they do that?

I mean, I don't know. It's a question for the banks, not for the Fed. Yeah, exactly. So when you, you, Danny Reimer at Index did your seed. Yep. You had Greylock. Congratulations. Do your series A.

Yeah. Kleiner Perkins, Mumoon, formerly of social capital, did the B. but Sequoia passed on the B, you said. Yeah, well, actually, Greylock passed on the C, too. Wow. So we have a history of firms that passed us then back in a later. So you got passed and they said, hey, listen, what was the reason? Let's go through this.

What was the objection that Greylock gave you when they passed on the C? And then how does one as a founder take that no and turn it to a yes 24 months later? Yep. Or 36 months later. Yeah. So basically, the person I talked about the Greylock was John Lilley, who going back to our earlier conversation was the CEO of Mozilla. for a long time. And so deep respect for him, very technical,

loves design, kind of like the perfect person to join us. And stocked with a bunch of firms for the seed. One of them was index. And they called us that night and were like, we're in. Cool. That's awesome.

Was that like a quick $500 or a million dollar check or something? Well, we raised, they did $2 million of a $4 million round. Okay. Wow. So it was awesome. And they were, they've been incredible partners entire way through.

I mean, they've been awesome. But on their firm, we talked with was Greylock and John Lilly in particular. And John, John was like very transparent. I mean, he's like a very direct guy. And he's like, look, like, and to be clear, he was correct. And he says it was a lot of compassion, but he was like, I really like you guys, like what you're doing. I think there can be something here, but like, I don't think you know what you're doing yet. You're not qualified. And to be fair, like, we totally didn't. Agreed. And not just from like a like business standpoint,

which I mean, we're all learning all the time, but also from like a strategic standpoint. Yeah. Like, we just didn't have the right strategy at that point. And so then kind of went to the point of like, okay, we'll just keep talking. And he made clear that he was down to. And so we kept having coffees every month or two. Wow. And he would give us advice and just as, and he gave us connections.

He introduced people that were really helpful. That's amazing. And then how I can be helpful is kind of the way people make fun of VCs. Uh-huh. But what you're saying, in John Lilly's case of Raylock, he, actually did that. He didn't have skin in the game. And he was just helpful. And he was just helpful. Generally awesome and helpful. So people hate venture capitalists in Silicon Valley because they think that how can I be helpful is like pandering nonsense or whatever when in fact it is your first-hand

experience. I mean, I think most investors I've met in Silicon Valley and this is a biased experience for sure. And I'm not saying everyone shares this, but have genuinely be helpful. And like also they, I think like the investor sort of personality type often is definitely one that's much more nurturing and like wants people to succeed. Like that's kind of like you don't, I don't think make it long as an investor if you don't have that person. No, you have to be of service.

Yeah. And it's like if you're not of service and you're like the aggressive like Shark Tank person or whatever, like that's not the thing that actually happens. No, this is why like when they, I got pitched on Shark Tank when it was Dragons Den and they were just bringing it here. And when they pitched me on it and I was potentially going to be on it in that first

and I mean, I did two calls with them and then I didn't wind up on it, which made sense because I didn't have any successful investments at the time. And I said to me, said, you realize that this like negotiation because I watched the Dragon Gen stuff, I was like, this is not actually how it happens.

Like, you're not trying to diminish the person and make them feel bad so you can get a better deal. You're kind of doing the opposite. You're trying to build them up knowing they're going to storm the beach and the likelihood is failure and they're going to get their head blown off

and this company's going to zero. So you're kind of sending them off to this crazy war knowing, so you want to get them pumped up to storm the beach. There's also an incentive for investors of like you don't know when the next company is like the next amazing company

next Uber or whatever is right in front of you. And so you don't want to piss someone off. Bad for optionality. Yeah, exactly. We want the chance to like lead the next round or whatever. Yeah. If you were a jerk to Travis during scour or Red Swoosh,

you may have missed Uber. Yeah. or if you were a jerk to Elon at X or Zip2, maybe you don't get Tesla in space X or a boring company. But I've also just had very few experiences where investors are jerk. Like most of them have been awesome to me. But going back to John and he was at some point after a lot of coffees, he said, look, like, if you ever think about raising a series A,

and someone were still in stealth mode, by the way. Wow. We hadn't yet launched anything, had no customers, but we had started like a very small alpha. and he's like, if you guys think about Raisin N, A, let me know. And a few weeks later, I called him up and was like, hey, like, think about Raised an A. I want to work with you.

We did talk with a few other firms. But like, it was, I basically just wanted to work with John. And if either of the other firms that said yes, I don't know if I would have gone with them. It's a good lesson for investors, you know, like be of service, be as helpful as you can. And as Naval told me when we were both starting off maybe 10, 11, 12 years ago, maybe 10 or 11 years ago, we both started to do Angel investing. And he said, Jason, the reason we're winning is because we're in a competition to see who can be the most helpful.

And the three most helpful people right now, three or four most helpful people are Paul Graham, you, me, and Ron Conway. And we're the ones who go talk to founders and write small checks. That's the race to be the most helpful. And I'm going to start this angelist thing. I'm taking my venture hacks blog and I'm going to make it a website, like Facebook or LinkedIn for angel investing. I was like, wow, that's cool. Totally. Crazy times.

So Sequoia passed on the bee. Yeah, so we talked with Mamun, for example, for the bee, ended up doing it. He's an awesome. He was actually his first check in KP. Oh, was really stoked about that. And KP's been, I was a KB fellow as well. I was a flipboard.

They've been, like, you know, amazing influence for a long time. And then we talked to Sequoia as well for the bee. And Sequoia was like, look, like we just can't reconcile reconcile the position in the space right now. like, you know. To my question earlier, like, is this Canva or Adobe or InVision? What is this?

Yeah. Like, there's so much going on. We don't really get the space. Like, there's a lot. You know, we're going to have to wait this one out because we want to invest in the right company here. Right. But we don't have that information.

Exactly. They're not going to bet on your competitor. Right. And so they're like, we want to wait it out and make sure that we had total confidence. And we're ready to pay a higher price for that. Wow. So come back to us next round when you've proven that out and we'll pay up. Yeah.

And I did. I came back to them next round. I was like, okay, like, you sure you want to pay up? And they're like, yep. Wow. So it happened quite quickly. And we also already had that relationship, and we had been building that relationship with them as well.

Because I think the other thing people, like, I think a lot of times people, when they fundraise, they think, oh, this is kind of like this transactional thing. Yeah. And my experience has been that you don't want it to be that. Like, Danny actually was somebody that I met at Flipboard when he was a board member there. I mean, just like very briefly.

But still, like I knew of him. I had done references on him. like it wasn't like I just like shut up and was like here this BC guy should like go raise from him all the investors we ever had I've tried to build relationships with before you put someone on your board

it's like that's so necessary like that's like marriage you're not going to like jump into marriage with somebody in Vegas that you have met a day before you're gonna like get to know them over time and so always like both in mind when entrepreneurs just like go and

raise from someone after they've known them for like a day it's so weird I mean it's one thing when you're doing the party round exactly or like for a board siege A board seat. It's like, you're going to get ready. Yeah.

Because this person's personality is going to come out. Totally. And you want to know what you're going to get. Oh, God. I've had these board experiences where like, there's got to be like, it's always like every 10th board or something. There's somebody on the board who just feels like this is their chance to show how smart they are and how much experience they have.

And they dominate the conversation and the founder can't speak. I'm like, when I'm on board calls, I'm quiet. I mean, it's good really. unnerving for people considering I talk for a living, but I'm super quiet. I just, I write my questions down. And today I was on a board call. I just, I had four questions. I wrote them in as few words as possible. And I numbered them one, two, three, four. And I said, my questions were, we got, you know, two minutes 75, which is why I had to push the buckets back 50 minutes. And I was like, well, I have my four questions. They're in here. You can answer them now. Or you can answer

some of them now. And if some of these require a little bit of research, you can just tell me by email or text me later. Well, the other thing we do is for board meetings, now we're on a different tangent. But the, no, tangents are great. Okay, great. Point of the show. So we, well, often for board meetings, like, we always have the metrics. They come out every month to board investors.

And that way, it's like, if you have a question with the metrics, we expect that to be like before a board meeting. Like, board meeting is for strategic stuff. Yes. We're going to send out a letter beforehand, and I do a deck as well. And so it's like, here's a very focused strategic like conversation. Right. And then also the other thing we do is I then take the deck and I show it to the entire company afterwards.

Ah, I used to do it too. And it's just like awesome because that way it's like we have transparency across like up and down. Everybody gets scared. Oh, the board meeting is happening. Oh, he's getting ready for the board meeting. Uh-huh. And it's like, oh, it's like, it's like, it's like, let's like, be clear about what we're talking about and what that means for you. You as the employee know more than what's going on in the board meeting. By the way.

As a team member, you're in the Slack all day. You have the back channel. You almost universally have more. The only thing you probably don't have is the first. funding plans or M&A or whatever things can't be public. You know one of the things I just realized when we're talking about what's going to change after this corona crisis that we're going through is I'm noticing, this is going to be a very interesting second half of the year where people who

worked from home for the first time learn how to do it and then bosses who are learning how to do it now. And I'm among them. I mean, I have one company inside, which is the formal Mahalo, which is 100% remote. and then I have launch, which is zero. Well, no, there's three remote people, actually. I take it back. Like support people are remote

because you can't get them in San Francisco anymore. You find out who actually is making an impact because I just told everybody, tell me at the beginning of the day what you're working on at the end of they tell me what you got done. Just where I just have broad strokes, sort of like the stand-up, I guess.

And boy, is it revealing who's getting shit done and who is not? Yeah. And you start looking at these lists. And now what I've started to do is I tell people But if somebody leaves the company, pull out their end of the day, end of the week reports, I'll consolidate them all into one. And then let's look at what they're doing and then ask ourselves, of these bullet points of what they got done in the last three weeks,

which one of them could have been outsources or automated? And I think we're going to see a wave of downsizing because people realize they have gotten fat. And they may have people who are not actually contributing. then you're going to see a wave of promotions of people who are actually getting tons of shit done. Yeah. Well, I think there's different companies, right? So it's like for companies that have been performers managing this entire time and making sure they're like hiring correctly and then, you know,

working through if someone's not a performer. How do you make sure you know if someone's a performer? How do you do it, Figma? How do you know people are not like just coming to work and looking busy? I think it depends on the function, of course. Sure. But, you know, I think it's... Like scales has a score card so we can leave them out.

Like, either they sell a sales as a scorecard, so you can leave them out. Well, sure, but it's, sales is not just about the scorecard, right? So it's like, if I'm a salesperson and I tell you, oh, yeah, like, you should sign because we've got these three features coming. Yeah. And those three features aren't coming. Yeah, of course. You got to look at it.

That's not something that we tolerate. Yeah, line, not good. Yeah. So I think there's stuff like that. There's obviously like the basics, like values, integrity. But also, like for us, the values are, you know, like, it's a different conversation. I'll go into it later if you want. But, um, uh, so I think there's like the culture sort of like the two by two for this one is

actually kind of interesting. You know, it's, uh, you know, if you have someone that's like very like high culturally, they're great culture fit and they're great performer. Um, then like amazing. You got the perfect employee. Yes. If they're like a low culture fit, you know, low performer, awesome, like very obvious. That should not, they should not be your company. Yeah. Bottom left. Or the harder ones are like people that are like the people that everyone likes, but they're not quite, you know, performing at the level that you want them to. Okay. Or they're, top left. or that's actually the one that's probably the harder one is the one that's high performer bad culture fit. That's the ones that you have to actually work through very quickly to figure out, okay,

why is this not working out? You know what I said? And get them out of the door. Cut. I think it's a simplistic answer, yes, but I think the compassionate one is that you have to actually work with people on this stuff. And so it's one of the culture that we have, a figma is more around like how do you actually give feedback? Do you find you can actually give people feedback where bad culture fits and get them there? Out of ten times, how often does it work? Well, I think we did a pretty good job have screen for culture fit, so it's barely to the point where... Let's say you make the mistake or the person, people can snow you during the interview process. It's more likely as if you get people feedback and they don't like the feedback because they're not

good culture fit, then they leave on their own. So that's what we've seen probably more often. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. I said what I learn now is it's very hard for an employer to change the fundamental nature of the employee. So if they do not get it, if they're disruptive at work in a bad way. Like, there's disruptive in a good way. Like, hey, we got to focus on this. This is broken. That's good. And here's my idea is to fix it. But if they're just like, this place

sucks, it's never going to work. Why are we even trying? Like that person, you just, I deal with this all the time with young founders. They're just like, yeah, I know, I'm working with them. I'm like, newsflash, it's never going to work. I just ask people, are you a psychologist? Are you a therapist? It's not going to work. Like, why are you wasting your time? We don't really have anyone like that, I think, ma'am. So I'm thankful for that. You must have had that experience, though,

you did a bad hire and tried to work with them. Even for hires that haven't worked out culturally, like I don't think we've had that level of bad hire. I see people get so desperate at the early stage. I think you've probably been more considered, but people get very desperate at the early stage because they need this specific thing done. Yeah, it's a common trap.

And it's a blocker. Yep. And they get somebody and they're just like, this person can unblock this for us. They've sold before. They've been a great VP of sales. Then they get them and like, oh my God, this is a mercenary marauding person.

who is just going to stab you in the back the first chance they get and demand more money. You have to be really careful about hiring. Yeah. And it's, um, hire slow. It's so hard to actually do it though. And it's like, I mean, we just hiring. We know, hire slow. Hire slow.

Like it's, it's very hard to actually follow that advice. Why is it hard? I agree with you 100%. To be clear. Yeah. And we have followed that advice. But it's, um, I'll give an example. Why is it so hard to hire slow?

I'll give an example. So like, one of the top constraints in our business is hiring right now. Right. Just to get it very met about the conversation. And, uh, had a head talent search that we've been doing for, I think, seven, eight months now. Just closed it. Super stoked. It took us seven or eight months to close it, though. To find a head of talent to hire the people. Exactly. That is better. But we waited to find the right person. We knew exactly what we're looking for. Made a list. Yeah. And we knew there's a few people out there like that. And then we went and relentlessly looked for that person. Yeah.

Meantime, my HR leader, it was amazing. And the reason why we've got a lot of great ways to get people feedback at Figma. She was, you know, managing recruiting. and putting like so many hours in on top of being a working mother who, and then, you know, coronavirus hits and her kids at her home. And it's like, she's got a lot going on. And she was putting her all in every day. And I'm like, oh, gosh, I hope you don't get burnt out. Like, yeah. But in the meantime, she was also on board for like, okay, we have to make the right hire here.

And, you know, everyone on the table was like, let's take our time. Here's the difference. You know, when you get more season, you realize if it takes six or seven months, that's shorter than hiring somebody in three months. working with them for six to 12 months and then starting the entire six-month process over again. Yep. Because that's two fucking years.

I'm sorry. That's two years of your life, the wrong hire. Yep. So you might as well take the extra couple of months. And I'm constantly telling people like they're like, so what's your, you know,

I don't know who taught this to like the Harvard MBAs or something. Somebody gave this to like the smart kids in the class. So what's your timeline for hiring? And is there anything that would stop you from hiring me or that would be a red flag for me? You know, And I'd love that advice. And you're just like, I always just tell people, when we have the absolute right person who's a culture fit and who has the skills and is motivated, that's when we're going to hire.

But we're in no rush because we're overstaffed and we want to wait for the right person. And I always just now, I have the luxury of this now, but I always try to overstaff a little bit. Because if you have 30% more capacity in a business unit, they can be more creative. There's less burnout. The culture goes up. Yep. So sometimes the inefficiency as a, you know, in terms of staff. Sounds awesome. I've never gotten to the point where I feel like we were overstepped yet.

Well, I mean, think about it this way. Do you have a personal assistant? I do. Yeah. Now imagine... Or an EA for the business. An EA business. Yeah. Okay. So P.A.EA. Now imagine you hired somebody for the weekend for five hours every Saturday, five or Sunday at remote, just in a Slack room, who is doing support for you. And now think about that extra capacity in the cost. Maybe the person costs $25, 35 an hour, work from home, remote support. for you. It's an extra 10 hours. It's an extra 300 a week. Can you imagine how much more productive you would be if you had that? I set that up. I was like, you know what? I want to have Saturday and Sunday coverage, just 10 hours. So if I needs to get stuff done on the weekends, I can be productive on the weekends and have that resource and they can do stuff that we know that Monday need to be,

that needs to be done by Monday because we're going to all get back in the office and we want to hit the ground running. Let's clean up the stuff that we need to get done over the weekend and we give them work on Friday so that Monday we hit the ground running. And, and, and, you know, And that's just an example of a little extra capacity. It's like, is this perfectly efficient? No. But it's extra capacity. It's like having those extra cans of soup if in case a coronavirus breaks out or gasoline

in your generator or whatever and keeping your gas tank full. A little extra, especially when you've raised a lot of money, not a bad idea. Not a bad idea. If you can find the right people. If you have the right people, their culture fits because they also then it gives a little bit of that sort of Google 20% of like, well, maybe the people actually have a little bit of cognitive. time left over. So we were always in the studio here worried about our archive, like all the

NASS's and we produced hundreds of hours of footage, actually thousands of hours of footage a year because we use multiple cameras. And now we have two directors here, Charles and Nick. We used to have one. And it's like, we could get by with one. By having two, they don't burn out. I think I hear him with that. No, you could do with one. It would just be, we would never get to those projects. We would never catch up.

So we probably have 50, we probably have a third extra capacity. And you know what? then I don't have people quitting and being burnt out. Yeah, for sure. And if they take a vacation, the place does not fall apart. So I just like a little extra capacity. Listen, this has been great. Thanks for coming in and doing the pod.

It's eight six feet away for me. Dylan, Field, you can follow him at Zoink, Z-O-I-N-K, and you can talk to him. He likes to talk about politics and the coronavirus. I'm joking. Probably wants to talk to you about design. Yeah, Figma. F-G-M-A.com. Go and get a free account.

start using it and make your dreams come true. You know all the people who use it. My team over at Uber, I don't know anybody at Uber anymore. Airbnb, right, Google, Microsoft Dropbox. Everybody uses it? Not everybody yet, but we're working on it. Yeah. Congrats.

Thank you, man. All right. We'll see, stay safe, everybody, and we'll see you all next time on this week and startups.