This Week in Startups - E1045: 15Five CEO & Co-Founder David Hassell shares insights on remote work: transitioning from in-person to remote, tips for keeping employees engaged, defining trust & more!

Episode Date: April 15, 2020

0:51 Jason intro 15Five's David Hassell & checks in on how his company is doing 4:23 What does a great leader need to do in a crisis? 8:26 How to share information with your team about potential layoffs 10:27 What is 15Five? What have they set out to accomplish? 15:22 Tips on transitioning an in-person team to fully remote 22:24 Defining trust in terms of business & how 15Five keeps their employees engaged 32:16 How increasing trust has resulted in hardly any employee turnover at 15Five 35:13 How remote work is revealing 42:24 How are employees feeling about getting back into the office? 47:43 What will COVID-19 change? 57:09 What is David hopeful about?

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And Delighted is the easiest way to measure and monitor your NPS. Claim your free lifetime account complete with a complimentary advisory session with a delighted concierge at delighted.com slash twist. Hey everybody, welcome to this week in startups. I'm your host Jason Calcanus. We're taping this as the last couple of weeks of episodes. have been remote and we're really dialing in and trying to get the audio quality. Perfect. Thanks to Charles and Nick for doing all the work. If you want to join the Super Secret This Weekend Startup Slack Channel, go ahead and email

Nick atlaunch.co. Tell them what you like about the show. Tell them who you want to see as a guest and then he will invite you to the Super Secret Slack Channel. 3,300 members. Crazy. And it's a really good discussion. If you do choose to join this week in Startups Slack Channel, remember it's, really about two things. One, the podcast, two, startups and running companies. It is not a place

for you to find leads or do top of the funnel nonsense or get people to follow you on LinkedIn or download your goddamn ebook, okay? I banned like four people in the first week who are just selfish and didn't want to have a conversation about startups. So go ahead and join that this week in Startup Slack Channel. We're having a really good time they're talking about life. And I tend to get on there at 10, 11 o'clock at night every night and talk to folks after I put the kids to bed and I'm all alone and lonely in my house. We are in week four or five of quarantine, and it has been brutal for me personally, but nowhere near as brutal as the people who have been impacted and the people who have to go to work every day, putting themselves on the front line to those

people who are suffering. You're in our thoughts and prayers, and to those people who are on the front lines, we're in awe of you. Thank you. To the Uber driver, Uber Eats driver, the postmates driver, the postmates driver, DoorDash driver, Amazon, factory worker, packing things up, making sure the food supply is still up and running, EMTs, police officers, firefighters, nurses, nurse practitioners, doctors, everybody, janitors in the hospitals. My God, thank you for your sacrifice and putting yourself on the front lines. Today I'm having one of my early investments, the founder of one of my early investments and just one of the great human beings I've gotten to meet in this line of work that I stumbled into at the age of about 38 or

39 years old. I started angel investing. What a privilege it's been to know David Hassel. He is a CEO and co-founder of 15.5. That's 1-5 spelled out. So the number one, the number five, F-I-V-E.com. And he showed me his product. And I just thought this is a brilliant idea. and I put a tiny amount of money in and then over the years kind of forgot about the investment. David would come on the podcast, come speak at the events, but I, you know, wasn't really tracking it until one day he sent me a chart. And David, welcome back to the podcast, but the chart was kind of going like this,

slow and steady, and then all of a sudden you had a big upswing. So welcome back to the podcast first. Thank you. Great to be here. How are you doing during this crisis? How is your family? Family's good, and I'm good personally. Thanks for asking.

And the team members, how is everybody at the company dealing with this very challenging time? You know, I'd say that people are, people are shaken. It's definitely a concerning time. We're doing our best to lead with clarity and conviction. And there's also just a lot of unknowns, so we're being honest about that. And that's what we want to talk about today, I think. You reached out and you're like, hey, you know, I've been listening to the pod, great episodes. We'd love to talk a little bit about your views and how to be a leader, too.

Let's talk about being a leader in crises. What's the first thing a leader needs to know or do in a crisis like this when leading a team at a startup or a country or a city, etc? But in our case, we're going to talk about startups because it is this week at startups. Yeah, I think the first thing you've got to do is you've got to take care of yourself. you know, for me that means doing exercise and meditation and getting good rest. Because, you know, one person told me that, you know, the CEO's first and foremost job is chief emotional officer. So the way that you actually show up in front of your team is going to influence how they experience what you're saying and whether they can kind of trust that you've got things together and handled, even if you don't know all the answers. So first and foremost, make sure your psychology, make sure your temperament, your health, physical.

spiritual and otherwise, is tight. Good? Yeah? Exactly. Yep. Now what's next? You're meditated. You got your com.com going. You went for your work. You do a little tennis or whatever. And you got off your peloton, tonal, whatever you chose to do. What's next for the leader? Yeah, I think you got to, you got to realize that you probably don't have all the answers and you don't know what the impact's going to be. And I think it's important to be honest about that. So I think you have to take a moment to get into risk mitigation mode, look at all the things that could possibly go wrong. And also, you know, when we're in an up market and a bull market,

there's a lot of things we can predict and count on, right? So we can build out these great plans and usually come within 10, 20% of what we're targeting. In a market like this, there's just so many unknowns. So what you now have is a set of possible scenarios and probabilities. And so you need to be, you need to first look at what are, all the different possible scenarios. There could be a scenario where my company gets cut in half in a year. There could be another scenario where I could equally believe we double or triple because what we offer happens to be really needed right now for remote workers. And each of those has a certain probability

to it. And so you need to know what the probabilities are, what the scenarios are. You need to make a bet on one of those. And then also understand how are you going to move or pivot if you move from, you know, as you get more information from scenario A to scenario B to scenario C, for example. And then I think it's important to understand what are all the things that can hurt you and build out proactive plans to address those from a risk mitigation standpoint and mobilize the team to focus on those. So right up front, one way I've heard it is great leaders define the reality that they're in. You see this as, hey, here are the possible scenarios. This is the reality. And here are the scenarios that could happen.

That's right. could be in a three to six month crisis. We could be in a 12 to 18 month. We could be in a 24 month, a 36 month. Nobody knows. But it is important to define each of those situations, even if they are scary, correct? Correct. Yeah, I think it's important to be transparent and honest with people about it, you know, because one of those scenarios may happen. And if you're painting an overly rosy picture or you're not actually being up front, people can sense that. They're not going to trust your leadership. And if you are actually believing that there's a one-third chance you're going to have to lay off the company or lay off the majority of people, a one-third chance,

you have to lay off half the people in a word, one-third chance, you know, everybody's got to take a pay cut. Do you explain it in those stark terms to people? Or is that going to just absolutely get people anxious and paranoid and increase their anxiety. How do you present the situation I came up with a hypothetical, a third, third and a third, extreme cuts, serious cuts, modest cuts. Would you explain it as candidly as I just did, or is there a way to present this in a less candid way that is less shocking?

Or should you go for shocking? Yeah, I think it depends. I don't think there's a universal on that one. I think it does depend on the probabilities. Like if I think there's a 10% probability I need to lay off a third of my team, I'm probably not going to share about that until I have better data. If there's a 70% chance that it might happen and we need to hit some numbers in order to avoid that, I'm probably going to share that.

I think it also varies based on the kind of culture you have. Do you have a culture where people are really, really committed? And do they trust that you have at least laid out a really good plan or enrolled the right people in the company to engage on the things that matter. I find that, you know, I was telling someone, when there's a really dangerous situation and you don't have a plan, that's terrifying. When there's a really dangerous situation and you can see one or two pathways through, that sometimes can be exhilarating if the people come together to make it happen. It can certainly give you additional purpose as well. Yes. To work against a plan. This is one of the things, Victor Franco,

in Man Search for Meaning, you know, sort of keyed off of in his theories of, you know, who survived Auschwitz and who survived some of the worst situations in history, the ones who could find a sense of purpose, the ones who could visualize the world getting back to normal or changing and they having the ability to execute against that plan to get there. That purpose help people through that day to day. Are you finding that in your company today? I'm finding that exactly. It's been amazing. In one sense, you know, I mean, this is a terrible situation. In another sense, there's been, I'm so inspired by the way the team has very quickly pivoted and mobilized and made certain things happen inside the company just in the last four weeks. And so I think that that's

really true there. You know, we have a lot of people who are very, very connected to the mission and then also have clarity as to what some of the problems are and are working very aggressively towards solving those. What are the things that you set out for the team to do? And this would be a good moment for you to explain what 15-5 does and who uses it. Yeah. So I'll start with what 15-5 is and does. So 15-5 is a historically a continuous performance management and employee engagement platform. Some people call it a people-management platform. It's kind of the thing that sits between your HRAS, which is like people admin and your project management. where your work gets done. In kind of another frame you might see, you know, kind of Zoom and Slack

as being your open office in your conference room. And then things like Asana and 155 are where you actually manage your people and the projects. So it starts, 155 starts with a weekly check-in that has every employee check-in with their manager around things like, how are they doing, what challenges they're facing, what progress they're making toward their OKRs. Do they even know what their OKRs are? Or rocks, if you call them, whatever you call your strategic objectives. It creates a structure for people to do peer appreciation through something called high fives. So it creates this regular cadence of communication between managers and employees that mimics what the best managers in the world naturally do. And it also just happens to be an ideal remote work management tool, which is something

I actually built it for, but we've never marketed as such. So on one hand, we're seeing a big uptick in people wanting to now use this because they're all stuck at home. On the other hand, we have customers who are already being impacted. Some have had to lay off their entire teams or made big layoffs. So we're looking at on the risk mitigation side, how do we manage our cash flow effectively? How do we anticipate and address any potential churn from customers who are being badly impacted? And then how do we also get the word out and help and really move forward in helping teams the way we know how? Because we built our company as a remote first company.

and we didn't miss a beat moving to fully remote. And we have a lot of institutional knowledge, a lot of it baked into our platform that we're now out helping companies get there too. Explain to other SaaS founders how you're looking at your projections and historical churn versus coronavirus chaos, crisis churn. These would be two different things?

Yeah, two completely different things. Again, it's, you know, When you're in a stable reality, you can predict with relative confidence based on your historical is what it's going to be. Let's say that the payroll protection plan that's rolling out keeps employees around for the next three months, but we end up in a situation where we're in lockdown for another six or eight months. Does the government come to the rescue then? Are there a bunch of layoffs? We don't know. If there's a bunch of layoffs, there's definitely going to be people cutting their seat count in 15.5, they're not going to pay for employees who are no longer employed.

So again, it comes down to a number of different probabilities. And we're also looking at, you know, are there situations where we can help customers get through this period and working with different customers depending on their situation? I need to tell you the world is changing and that businesses are being forced to adapt in many different ways. And you need to make sure your marketing gets results right now so you can keep your business vibrant during these challenging times. And LinkedIn can help you reach people or looking for opportunities. help their business with over 62 million decision makers on LinkedIn. You're able to connect with the right business leaders.

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Thanks again, LinkedIn for support on the podcast. Good luck, everybody. Let's talk about. remote work. A lot of companies suddenly find themselves remote for the first time. Yes. One company I run inside has always been remote. The other company launch has never been remote, much of the chagrin as to some former employees who desperately wanted us to never come to an office. And I was like, well, I kind of need to come to an office if you're going to be investing in companies. You need to meet with them. And lo and bold, here we are operating as

remote, which I don't like. I'll be totally honest. But here we are. If you're a company like mine launch, an investment company and suddenly you find yourself remote, how do you even get your bearing and how do you make the company functional in this new reality? What are your first couple of bullet points for a company who suddenly finds themselves remote for the first? It's kind of a funny thing. One of our early core values, we've since refreshed them, but one of our early core values from the time when you invested was embrace freedom and flexibility. We were in a situation where, our belief was that we should all be together in the same room at that time. And there were some

situations that emerged with our leadership team where we had to be physically apart. We decided, you know, one of my co-founders moved back to the East Coast because they had to, you know, was raising a family and was there with family. And so we said, well, you know, we know there's some upsides about this. What if we can actually lean into the upside? So we created this value, embrace freedom and flexibility so that we would kind of reframe the, the idea that there are our challenges about it and look for the positives. And so even though we've had about 50% of our 200 employees prior to this pandemic working from offices, we ran the company as a fully distributed remote team, fully distributed remote infrastructure. And so I can talk a lot about,

you know, how we think about that. The first thing that's important is you have to have a mindset. Like I get, Jason, it's not ideal for you. But it can be done. I think a lot of people are being surprised by the fact that you can actually do business over Zoom video, it's different. It's not as ideal in some situations as face-to-face meetings. It really isn't. But it's possible. And so it's not like, you know, thank God we have the internet. I mean, you know, what will we have done in 1987?

Right? Nothing. You couldn't do this on. You couldn't do what we do on the phone. The ability to see somebody when you're trying to make an investment over Zoom and watch their presentation feels like 60 or something. 70% of what I need to make a decision. Yes.

And so I agree it's possible. It still feels so non-ideal because I just, the body language and being in the room and sharing space, God, I miss it. I think certain big deals. I think, you know, key hires, it's going to be very hard. A lot of people are going to wait on those things until we can get back together. So what's the game? So the game is, I think you have to over-communicate.

One of the things that someone said to me once that's really resonated, we talk about it a lot internally is that in the absence of information, people go negative. We always fill in the blanks in our stories about people, companies, et cetera. When you're a CEO walking into an office every day, your people see your presence. You don't have to hold regular all hands meetings because people see you. They feel your energy. You're in dynamic and prompt you conversations, et cetera. Love it. You need that. That has to happen. So all of a sudden, you need to have all hands meetings much more regular so that your people can see you. It doesn't have to be long, though.

So we do it every Monday morning for 30 minutes, gather the whole company together. We actually also do one on Wednesdays, but typically it's department heads who are leading those and sharing about things internally. But having that regular cadence of very short, all hands meetings, so your people can see you, feel you,

hear how you're thinking about things, they can see your presence is critical. The same thing happens between managers and employees. it's all about trust when you think about it. So if I don't trust somebody, which is more likely if I can't see them and see what they're doing, then what's going to happen is I'm going to think I need to micromanage them. And that's going to actually completely thwart any sense of productivity

and further deteriorate the relationship. So you need to find that fine balance between being informed as a manager and then granting autonomy so that the person feels like they have autonomy to go out and act and do their best work, but you know what's going on and you can address those roadblocks. And so that's really where our weekly check-in practice comes in and why that's so important in remote work. Describe what the best practice is for a weekly check-in. What should a weekly check-in be? Yeah. So you can do this by email. It's much obviously better institutionally if you have a

platform that just automates the reminders and also the threaded conversations that emerge from it. But let's just say we're doing it by email, for example. So on a Thursday afternoon or a Friday afternoon, whatever your cadence is, you ask people to just answer a few key questions. You want, you want an emotional pulse check because we're not, we're not actually face-to-face as much. So it might be, how are you feeling on a scale of one to five about the past week? It's been amazing. Typically, 15-5 runs around a 4.2 average. With this pandemic, we've dipped into like the 3.9, 3.8 range for a couple of weeks, and it's booing back up to four. Wait, for your company or for the all companies and aggregate? My company. What about all companies in aggregate? Do you have

that data? Do you... Yes. I don't have it in front of me right now. Yeah. It must be everybody's down 10 or 20%. Oh, I'm sure. It's amazing.

You can actually look at the graphs and see when there are certain different historical events or, you know, the election, for example, there was a big dip in our company. And then when we had our all hands retreat in January, there's a big spike. And so you can kind of see these things and how they influence the mood of the company, essentially. Now, wait a second. Yeah. When you ask for that emotional state, I just want to pause for a second.

Yes. Are you opening up Pandora's box and getting, you know, the cynical or the critical would be, hey, listen, is it my business to know emotionally how the employee feels on a Friday afternoon and getting it to the person? Aren't we here to do work? We do ask how are you feeling about your work? We do, you know, how are you feeling about your work this week? And look, we're emotional beings.

We may not like to believe it, but, you know, in fact, there's a lot of, lot of science that says that we actually, despite all of the, you know, this belief that we make decisions logically, most people actually make decisions for emotion and then justify it with their logic and not the other way around. The stock market is a great example of that. So we should just come to this discussion with the reality of, listen, humans are emotional creatures. Yes. So you can pretend that they're not and run a hardcore business or you can embrace it. Exactly. And I actually find you can increase performance where you give people space to actually show up and share how they are versus try to put on a front and hide it because in that case you're going

have people who show up inauthentically and they're not really you know again it erodes trust right we're trying to get to my belief is the the teams of the highest trust perform the best and so everything that you can possibly do to create high trust you should be doing okay define trust what does trust mean in this context because it's just a word we look up the definition But in the business sense, how does trust manifest itself in a remote team? So there's one person defined trust for me as operating in three vectors. This is one way to look at it. And that it's really a snap assessment that you make of someone around their sincerity.

Do you believe they're actually sincere? Are they reliable? Do they do what they say they're going to do? Can you rely on them? And do they have the competence? So can you, you know, do you actually believe they can do it? Do they have the skill to do it? And I'm leaning more into the sincerity vector there. I mean, in terms of reliability and competence, you know, that's how you're assessing whether the person's

the right one for the job. But is this part, do I believe this person actually cares? Do they have my back? Are they telling me the truth? Are they, you know, they really committed? And in that part, you get, when you're in an office of someone, you just get it kind of through osmosis. And so when you're remote, you don't have those, those regular interactions to give you that sense. And your, your mind can start going off in different places of being like, you know, do what, do I really think this person's actually working right now? Do I think they're doing their best work? Are they, are they looking for another job right now? You might make up all sorts of stories. Yeah, no, if somebody falls asleep and they said, hey, I'll call you later and they fell asleep, you might be

like, oh, they don't want to talk to me. And it could just be as simple as they lay down and fell asleep because they were exhausted. It had nothing to do with you. But in a vacuum, people's minds will go to dark places. We make up places. It is a... That's right. It is the pessimism that has made human survive for so long. Is that... That's right. We think, uh, maybe if I go into that river, I'll get eaten by a crocodile. I'm not going to go in the river for a swim. Yeah. And I, and you hear, the crazy thing is, like, it's true because, you know, if you look at the neuroscience, you know, there's a, people, people say, our brains are wired to survive and not to thrive. And so we are wired to look for what's wrong. And it is, it's an important survival

instinct. But there's also science that shows that, uh, the people who are in a positive mindset are far more creative and productive than if they are negative, neutral, or stressed. And that's not our default. So you almost have to train that. You have to overemphasize the things that are going to create that across the board. And in an environment like this, where people are at home, maybe they've never worked from home, they're struggling, maybe they've young kids or they're completely alone. There's a lot of mental health issues that are coming up. And so, you know, your ability to give somebody some of that natural human connection that they would otherwise get by just walking into an office is critical because your people are going to struggle.

They're not going to do their best work. So I believe you have to engineer that from a manager employee standpoint, but also create opportunities for your employees to connect with each other, not just around the work topics that they're working on. Okay, that's an interesting one, I think, as a real tactical one. I did something funny on our Slack. I said, we're going to have a contest. Winner gets a case of Bundaberg. I think I said something funny like that, because that's my favorite drink.

Yes. I said, ginger beer from down under. And I said, wear the silliest hat. And the first five or ten minutes of our, you know, weekly lunch were hilarious. And then the week before that, I said, you know, You can come, but if you have kids, they have to be on for the first 10 minutes. You've got to bring your kids. Oh, no way.

That's great. A lot of laughing and goofing off, not work-related. And it did act as a stress reliever, I think, even for me. That's great. That's exactly right. I mean, you know, we have our own versions of that, but, you know, engineering some of that time. Give me some of yours. People love this kind of stuff.

Yeah. So we, on Zoom, what we do is, as part of our Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, All hands. The Monday and Wednesday from 9 to 930 Pacific are mandatory meetings. And both of those start out. They have a business purpose. We share the numbers on Monday. We introduce new hires. We make announcements, et cetera. Maybe share any, you know, kind of updates or changes in strategy. Housekeeping. But we start off with the, you know, and this is us, right? So we start off, start off with a gratitude meditation every Monday morning or gratitude reflection. So our chief culture officer Shane who you've met will come on and share, you know, just something for us to,

to consider. You know, maybe it's, you know, feeling gratitude for the frontline workers during this pandemic or, you know, whatever it might be. On Wednesdays, we have somebody who leads a five-minute guided meditation for the whole company, kind of like a com.com type thing, but live by a 155 member. And then we go into department updates. And, you know, those are things that, you know, kind of unify the company, but we're not necessarily getting the social interaction. So on Friday, we do something, and this is optional,

but a lot of people participate. We call it question Friday. So once a month, someone's assigned as a question master, and they'll come on Zoom, and they'll ask a personal question to the group. And then we'll push a button. Everyone gets in breakout groups of 10 random people. So you're meeting nine other people throughout the company that you maybe have never met before. And we just go around and share the answers to the questions. Wow. I think this morning's question, which I missed, because I had to prep for a meeting, but it was like, you know, describe your room when you were 15 years old. You know, it might have been one a few weeks ago was, you know, what was a dream that you had or a big goal you had in your teenage years that you, you know, you ended up giving up, for example. So sometimes they're, you know, they're interesting, they're deep, we learn about each other.

And it builds this sense of cohesion across departments, which is really critical. Because in a lot of companies, you end up with these silos and turf wars. You know, one of the common ones that happens is engineers versus sales for different reasons. And this kind of breaks those barriers and has people feel like, oh, wow, you know, that person over in sales is just like me. I'm an engineer. Or, you know, we have some point of relationship. There's enough uncertainty in the world to go around right now. And NetSuite reduces it by giving you visibility and control.

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How should one deal with the high-performing, cynical person who does not, want to participate in team building nonsense. I don't need to do this stuff. I don't want to go on the whitewater rafting trip. No, I'm not interested in doing a bowling tournament or sharing my feelings or telling you about my 15, my room when I was 15 and what posters were on the wall and I was goth and whatever, like not interested, not why I'm here. How do you deal with that person? Do you don't hire them? Or you take them aside and say, hey. So you might not want to do this in your company. And I recognize that. But there are other ways just like you do. like, oh, let's wear a funny hat. Let's bring our kids in. Let's humanize our connection some way.

For us, yeah, we are sourcing for people who, you know, want to lean into human connection, vulnerability, personal growth. You know, those are attributes of our... So you have that manifest itself in the hiring process. Well, think about it. Now our core values, our first two core values is one is being, become your best self. So we're looking for people who are looking to grow themselves and become better performers, better human beings. Our second core value is cultivate relational matters. So if you're not into connecting with other people and, and so here's my belief. My belief is that when you don't have like super high order relating skills, which none of

us learn in our, many, many of us don't learn in our families, companies, society, what you're typically in, where companies tend to trend through through these little misunderstandings and resentments that build up is some form of gossip politics, resentment, blame, all of that kind of stuff that just happens in human systems. And it takes a lot to counteract that and actually create the opposite. And so we've built a, you know, kind of a set of guiding principles around, you know, kind of clearing misunderstandings and assuming positive intent. There's a number of things that we, we coach and teach on. And we're looking for people who want to do that. It's, you know, so we hire, higher and fire based on the core values. The other two core values are due the extraordinary,

because we believe that if you're becoming your best self and you're cultivating relational mastery, it lets us do the extraordinary and do things that other companies can't do. Cultivate relational mastery. Relational mastery. What is relational mastery? So for us, that's, again, it's the ability to connect with other people in a way that is, you know, human relationship. So mastering how to relate to other human beings, got it. Correct.

Being good at being a coworker and a human, et cetera. Exactly. Yep. And this has resulted in what, in terms of turnover year over year for your organization? We are, we probably run somewhere between 25 to 20, I'd say about 25% the standard Silicon Valley tech company in terms of our voluntary turnover. So 75% less voluntary turnover. Correct. Because I remember early on, you just, you didn't lose anybody ever.

We didn't lose anybody for like five years. I think we had two people at one point. And that really is because you took your time getting the right people on the bus for the good to grade analogy. That's right. And building the right culture to support that. How many people are in the company now? Just over 200. And how is it different now with 200?

Do you have to lead the culture or is the culture so set now that it propagates itself, it maintains itself? or do you have to constantly be out there tilling the field and reminding people to what the core values are? I think you, I don't think that job ever ends. We were definitely worried. We do an all-hands retreat every January. And last year at the beginning of 2019, there were 70 people. We'd gone from 30 to 70 to 190, I think, this year. And we were worried going from 30 to 70 that we wouldn't be able to maintain the sense of cohesion.

and we did. And the bigger jump from 70 to 190, we were really worried. And it was actually, I think, even more cohesive and connected with 190 people. So I think we did a really good job. But we, you know, we spent a lot of time during that retreat actually rolling out these new core values, talking about what they mean. You know, and then again, looking for ways to support people in the company in learning more about those things, you know, for themselves. Every one of our core values needs a set of operating principles. and how we actually do it.

And so we're continuing to build out training programs and ways to actually have them be lived and not just said. When you move to a remote team, one of the things I found is because everybody has to say what they're doing, you don't get that credit. You showed up on time and you were the last person to leave the office, right? As like, you know, I was sort of raised on like, be the first one in, be the last one to leave.

That's kind of how I made my career. I used to do that. My New York company. What's that? I ran a tech company in New York in the late 90s, and that was my ethos then, too. Yeah, I was just like, listen, I'm going to out hustle everybody. I'll be here first. I'll be the last leave. And I still joke about that. Like, when I have people come work for me and I see them leave before I do, I'm just like,

can't even fathom what's going through somebody's head unless, like, you know, it's a graduation or a wedding or somebody died. Like, how could you ever leave before your boss leaves the office? It's like unconscionable to me. I can't understand it. But that's changed. When everybody moves to remote and you start to see clearly what people are doing, you start to know, I think, and this is one of the second order effects I'm hearing from a lot of my founders, oh my Lord, I'm realizing this person is doing twice as much work and this person's doing half as much work. But they're really good in the office. They're really good at the water cooler and they look busy and they dress nice for work. but I got their end of the day report and I don't know what they're actually working on.

How much of that do you think happens when you go full remote? That to me seems like the big upside is quantifying what people got done in a day. I mean, I think you should be doing that even if you're not remote and I think that a lot of people don't. Here's the thing. By running your company as a remote first company, not only are you more resilient if things happen like they just did.

Right. Or you, you know, you can be productive even if you're not, you don't come into the office, for example. You could, you know, you could take a trip somewhere and you're still engaged. Your people can move around, go from office to office and still not miss a beat. But if you have the practices in place that you need to run a remote team and understand what they're working on and what's getting accomplished, you can do that even if the people are in the office and you're going to be more informed. You're going to get two sets of data. You're going to understand like, okay, how are they showing up culturally, but also, you know, how are they actually performing? relative to what they say they're going to do.

So I think it's just good business practice. I think when you're running a remote team, there's just a lot of things that you kind of think just happen naturally. It just requires more structure. One thing I will say to that point of like knowing what people are working on, highly encourage you to add two channels to your Slack immediately. One is just working on. We have a, you know, hashtag working on channel where people do post.

Like, here's what's up. Here's what I'm working on. I love that. What a great tactical one. It's great. It's opt in. You're not saying like holding a gun to be. people's head. No, totally opt-in. And it's a for us that's evolved to a channel that's more about

each person posting, you know, important updates. So if I need to do an all-hands announcement, I'll post it him working on. If, you know, for example, we just had a meeting with one of the top analysts in our space. And he's completely fallen in love with our management philosophy. I posted that as a big win in working on, or that I'm even on the call. I posted a screenshot of the, the Zoom call. So it's kind of like a tweet. It's like, hey. Yes. Because Twitter used to be in the old days, what are you working on? What are you doing? That was the prompt. I think they tried a bunch different prompts, but what's up and what are you doing? Was the previous prompts? It's kind of like a prompt like that. It's like, yeah, I guess it is like Twitter 1.0. And then the other one, we have the

water cooler channel, which is where people just post like, you know, all sorts of things about their family, what they're doing on the weekend, funny gifts. Like random. Yeah, random. But again, it creates that. It creates that. Because people start posting memes. And some of the memes are inappropriate. You have to have some guidelines. You have to have some guidelines. Like, if you do the Tiger King memes, that's okay. But if you do some fire festival, some of them might make people uncomfortable because they

involved, you know, sex or drugs or whatever. You have to be very careful having this, I think, discussion with people because people were making a lot of jokes about one of the more salacious scenes in Fire Festival early on. And it was really funny. And everybody was making those jokes on Twitter. And I had to explain to people like, on Twitter, the expectation is fine in a business. People might see them on Twitter and take them one way.

If they see them in a corporate slack, we might get sued at some point for people feeling uncomfortable because the meme had a sexual undertone or innuendo to it. So be careful. That's right. So, I mean, just clarify your guidelines. I mean, clearly. But giving people that place to connect. We also have a couple channels like parents of 155 where people are talking about how they're

doing their homeschooling right now and pets of 155 where people are sharing. pictures of their pets. That's fun. It's great. You're keeping it fun. How many hours a day do people actually work and get shit done? Chimoth had this tweet. He's like, what people are going to learn ultimately from this is that people have like three or four hours in them of work a day and they're done. I don't know if I agree with that. You might be talking more about himself. It's a pretty emotional wreckage as a, as an investor to go into that six, seventh, eighth hour meeting with companies. I can tell you that it's exhausting. Yes. How many hours a day do people actually do work?

I've heard people say that four or five hour things as well. I think Tim Ferriss talks about that. I'm definitely not a four to five hour a day CEO. I'm usually at my desk probably, I don't know, nine, maybe ten hours a day. And it's actual work? Like just grinding through task after task. Yeah, there's a lot going on right now. It's not always like that.

But, you know, we're also in a big moment. I practically wrote a book the other day two weeks ago to do. post-a-medium about all the remote work stuff. Yeah. So that took a lot of work. When we're evaluating startups that we want to invest in, we ask them, hey, tell us about your NPS scores. Do you record your NPS score?

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clean, simple survey template for NPS. In fact, they have many templates. So you can pick one that you like, as well as C-Stat, C-S and others. That's C-SAT. All the channels you need to reach customers, email, web, SMS, QR code, and more. And the built-in best practices will get you great response rate. And you get robust reporting so you can see and analyze your feedback in real-time with actionable insights, which is why you're doing it to begin with. You get seamless integration to tools like Slack, Zendesk, front, and more, and that's why Delighted.com is such an amazing asset. Here's my associate press setting up a Delighted campaign

to track the Net Promoter Score, the NPS, of This Week in Starlight, which is very podcast. And he's customized in the form and emails, and it lets us segment our twist mailing list all from the Delighted dashboard. As soon as it's sent, we can view the responses in real time and see what our listeners think of the email. show. What do I think of the guests? What do you think of the segments? The quality of the audio, video, etc. Show notes. You get the idea. This allows us to understand our audience better.

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Great piece, by the way. Everybody can find it on Medium. Just do a search for David Hassel. CEOs and leaders, here's how to prepare for an extended period of remote work. And we're talking about this. how are people feeling about coming back to work? And how are you managing that? I was talking to one CEO today who is having that management discussion now,

because if you're a manager or you're running a company, you're not going to have this discussion on the day you come back. You have to have it now. Great question. If we're expecting a May return for some number of people, and some people might think it's June, whether it's May or June, under what circumstances are people going to come back? And if they don't come back, are you going to fire them or furlough them if they are too scared to come back?

So how are you thinking about the road back to normalcy? It's a great question. We're a unique case. I was tuned into this outbreak, I think, earlier than most, well before the shelter-in-place orders. And we have offices, big offices in North Carolina and San Francisco as well as a smaller office in New York and a couple in Europe. You know, Spain happened first. And then you were queued into this because you're on Twitter, yeah? And you read news?

On the Twitter, I was also connected to some folks in Silicon Valley who had a Facebook group that they started early on to track what was happening. And, you know, a few weeks before we actually told our employees, look, if you're feeling any sort of anxiety about coming into the office right now, stay at home and work from home. And then what happened when you said that? Half of the people didn't show up? Some of them, some of them did, which is fine, because we already, you know, we already have 50% of our team that's remote anyway. So if you come into the office and we do an all hands meeting, everyone's sitting

there on their laptop on Zoom, on their own Zoom cameras. Right. So it doesn't make that much of a difference to us. You know, again, all of our meetings and Slack and Zoom and all that is all structured as if we're all remote. We just happen to have offices where people can congregate. So we're unique. and I think we'll probably do something similar on the other end when you, you know,

technically or legally can do it. We'll also say, look, if you want to take some more time, continue to work from home, we're fine with that. And so, you know, but, you know, for other CEOs, I think you have to, you know, I think you're going to have to understand the reality of people feeling fear. And is it really safe? And what are the implications? You know, certainly don't want to have people.

having to take, you know, put themselves and their families at risk if there is risk. But there's always risk in the world and there will always be risk. That's right. So this is the challenge, I think, for CEOs who have in-person businesses, like an investor who meets with people in person or runs an accelerator in person. If people are still scared, it puts me in a very weird position. And this other person I was talking to has a similar business. I'll leave them out of this because I think this is going to be, there's even

to be liability associated with this as well. That's right. Like, okay, I reopen my yoga studio or my spin class. Let's pick that. I reopen my spin and my workout facility, my gym. And I tell everybody you got to come back to work now. And three people say, I'm too scared. I want to work from home.

We're a gym. You can't work from home. So if you show up on Monday, you have a job. If you don't, you don't get paid. Now say some people show up on Monday. Two or three of them get the coronavirus, God forbid. and one of them gets in the ICU and they're intubated. Now are you as the CEO?

Because you told people, in order to work, you've got to come to work responsible for their dying potentially, horrifically. I think it's going to be interesting how people manage that legal risk because I think once it's accepted that, you know, yes, there may be risk out there and we're opening up the country and there are jobs like that. you know, I think you really do need to put the onus on the employee that if, you know, it's a job that is required for them to be in person, they still have choice to continue to working for you or find a job that can be done remotely. Right. That's going to be a really hard conversation. I agree.

There's going to be a lot of hard conversations going on. And especially if, let's say, you're somewhere in between and there's a debate, like the debate we had at the top of the show, where I said, I, I feel like I can get 60 or 70% of the job done remote, but that last 30 or 40% that's important to me. I don't feel that we're getting. Yeah. Now what do we do?

Now, am I going to be the CEO who says, you know what? Yeah, we can get 60% of this done, but I need you to come in because the last 40% I'm like, well, no, I got to stay home because I have too much anxiety coming out into this new reality, this new world where you could just catch something by accidentally touching a door handle

and be intubated in your lungs collapse. uncharted territory. Now I'm scared, David. Thanks for the podcast. Thanks. Now you got me terrorized. I'm actually scared as an employer to even think about this possibility, right? And this is what we talked about being a leader.

And then think about it than not to know it, right? Being a leader's hard. It is. I think this is going to be the end of commercial office space. If I could short commercial office space as a category, I'm not sure exactly how you do. Somebody will tell me in the super secret this week and start up Slack. Email Nick at launch.com if you want to get the super secret invite, but you have to tell them something good that you love about the podcast and try to improve it to get in. That's the price you pay to get into the super secret slack. I am thinking that you have how much space in San Francisco ballpark? Oh, gosh. How many desks, ballpark? We've got about 40, 40 desks, 50 desks. 40, 50 desks, probably 150 square feet per person, something in that range. You got all this space.

Yep. We got about 11,000 square feet in Raleigh, North Carolina. line as well. And this is not cheap. Nope. And it's going to be empty. For now. And when you come back, maybe it's half full. I think people are going to go from 150 square foot estimate per employee, maybe down to 75 or 50, and just say, we're doing office suiting. We're going to assume that only a small subset are going to be here at any given point in time. Every company will get by with less. I mean, we work is, I'm sure, and getting crushed right now. Well, also think about the Google bus and the Facebook bus. Oh, gosh. Oh, man,

Right. Who's getting on a bus for 75 minutes, the risk of being on a bus. But also, if I've been in the city or in Napa or Oakland or Berkeley or wherever, you know, Santa Cruz, and now Zuckerberg's like, hey, get on a bus and spend 75 minutes coming here. You're like, but I was in Santa Cruz. I crushed it for you. Why are you making me get on a bus to come to this giant million square feet of office space? It makes no sense. And you know what?

The employee is going to have the high ground now. That's going to be the big change. It's like, hey, but look, here's my work. Yeah, it's going to be really, it's going to be interesting to see how this thing all unfolds for sure. I may have to rethink everything. It's very challenging to be a leader at this time. How does a leader keep their shit together? How do you keep your shit together?

I know you're a balanced guy. Ah, man. But you're scared, right? Be honest. You scared about this? It's scary. Because you wrote this blog post. I sense that you are scared about this situation in a, you're scared about this situation in a, you're

in a very, it's deeply disconcerting to you, is it not? It's disconcerting. Yeah, it is disconcerting. I think that, you know, I think it's easier to deal with a situation when you know the impact. I think unknowns are really scary. And I think that for you. For anyone. Yeah, but for you specifically.

Can me take me through your fear. I'm trying to do what your culture number two is. I'm trying to get to know you here. Yeah, no, great. That's great. What is your fear right now? I'll tell you my fears. You tell me your fears. Yeah. So I would, you know, I really want to keep my team together. And there are certain numbers I have to hit in order to do that. I do not want to lay people off. Yeah. At this moment, I don't need to do that. But there's a chance I could. I don't know what percentage of my customers may be so severely impacted or reevaluate their priorities right now and say, you know what? The cash is more important than your product. And we're going to like, we're going to cut all, you know, unnecessary expenses. and maybe we get lumped in with that.

Yeah. And I don't know how many of those there's going to be. And on the flip side, I don't know how many people, because we've had an influx of people, we've been giving away 15-5 through June to help companies transition to remote. I don't, you know, we've had some of the biggest numbers

we've ever had in our history coming in to use the product. I don't know how all of that's going to net out. And where it nets out is going to actually basically make a determination of whether I can keep my team together or not. And that to you, as somebody who is so considered, you spent so much time

hiring the right people and investing in them and being one of the top companies on Glassdoor in terms of reviews for you to have to walk into that conference room or to pick up the phone and say, I know that you love this job more than any,

but you no longer have a job at 15.5. That's right. That's heartbreaking for you, isn't it? That would be heartbreaking. Yeah. See, for me, that as hard as that is I know I don't feel that as a heart of love as you but the thing that I'm scared about

just to open up here is I'm scared that people are not going to email me and say I want to start a company and I'm scared that the next David who had an idea and who I write a 25K check or a 50K check to says you know what? What is the point?

What's the point of being an entrepreneur? That to me rocks me to my core. That's what keeps me up at night. Yeah. I'm also scared societally that, you know, the, depending on how bad this impact is and how impacted people are, that this could create real serious societal scars where people are, you know, afraid in general. I think, you know, afraid of jumping into being an entrepreneur being one of them. You know, I think it could, I think it can really change the entire orientation to how we are as a society. And I think there are things where, you know, there's a lot of people out there talking on Facebook about how this is the best thing that ever happened.

and we're going to, you know, the world's going to be so much better. But I also think that there's a lot of ways that, you know, this is, this is, there could be some really, really long-term negative consequences. I think there's a group of people who may be, this is my other fear, I think there was a group of people who were barely able to believe in the societal structures we have. They were either disenfranchised or it's too intense or the anxiety of modern society. the pace of society, which has been so violent for some people, so anxiety producing. And I'm not talking about snowflakes like liberals on the left.

Like that's a different thing of like people shouting at each other on Twitter. I'm just talking about people who just felt like the system's rigged or it's too hard to get by. And, you know, I see all these people crushing it and they've got private jets or they've got a second home or they've got this other thing. They can afford college. I'm $200,000 in debt. their parents paid for the school. I didn't. All of those people who maybe were just barely above the water, but they're above the water. You know what? I'm just going to stay home. I'm just going to stay home. I'm out. I don't see the reason. And then you know, you get a large group of people who get laid off,

a large group of people who don't buy into, you know, the American dream that we've been living for over 200 years, this ability that, this belief that we will always solve every problem. We will always get out there and fight. We will always get out there and innovate. We'll lead the world and democracy, human rights, and all these great ways. People just say, you know what, fuck it, I'm staying home. I just don't have the energy for this. And I don't feel that that's like an impossibility. I think you could see 10, 20% of the population just go out to the woods and just be like, you know what, I'm going to go live a rural life. And maybe that's not a bad thing. But I could also see that leading to societal upheaval, you know, people being violent,

people protesting. You know, if you look at that Operation Wall Street chaos that occurred where people were rioting or, you know, doing sit-ins. Listen, I'm fine with people protesting, but some of those got very violent out in Oakland and other places. I could see like a whole group of people saying, you know what, the system, this is the breaking point for them, right? That concerns me. I mean, we already have more unemployment now than we did at the peak of 2008, I believe, by 50%. And you remember how dark that was and how people really. we're fearful. Yeah.

That being said, let's turn to optimism. Yeah. What do you see in this crisis that has made you optimistic, David? Oh, man, I think the, there's so much creativity coming out of people's homes right now. Yes. Isn't it amazing? Extraordinary. Yeah.

And the sense of unity, like we're all in this together. I think that there really is, you know, a level of kind of humility that this has snapped into some people. For sure. Yeah, for people who thought they were masters of the universe, that they could just dictate how things go. And, you know, I always felt like I was in command of, you know, what's going to happen. And, you know, when your ship goes into the storm, you start to realize, like, wow, we're just a tiny ship in this great big ocean. Like, you know, like, you thought you were a captain? Yeah, now, the ocean and the storm is the captain.

Right. They're the captain now. But boy, do I feel like people have reconnected with their families and they're creative? And the emergence of entrepreneurs embracing the challenge to me has also been awe-inspiring. Whether it's Feed the Front, I saw Ryan Sarver did that quickly popped up a way for people to donate. I think it's called Feed the Front. You can donate money to restaurants, so you help the restaurants, and then the restaurants give food to the nurses and doctors and janitors who are so busy saving people's lives and the risk. So you get this like double impact, right?

It's like double bottom line, right? And then I'm seeing other founders helping each other, you know, fill out the forms for the loans and the, you know, keeping payroll going. It's just inspiring. And then people making masks and buying masks and buying. mask or Elon working on ventilators and people shipping them and saying, you know what, I'm not going to even wait for the federal government or the local government. I'm going to start getting these testing kits and start testing people, Dave Freiburg. We did a bunch of testing three weeks ago, even before this stuff. These testing kits were out there. So there's a group of people who are

empowered by the crises. Yep. And seeing them mobilize so actively. And as critical as we can be of the Trump presidency, and it doesn't think in this situation, it's pretty easy for even Republicans to be super critical of him denying that it was just going to go away and there were going to be 15 people and it's going down to zero. This, I mean, those moments in history will be paramount, I think, when you look back on the situation. But even, you know, through all of that craziness, even our elected officials, people had given up on the city of San Francisco

and California being mismanaged and they got it right. They got it right. and Jack and Microsoft and Satya and all these folks saying, we're going to do the quarantine a week or two before the city does it, then the city doing it, then the state doing it. Our government moved quickly in some cases. Yeah, it was amazing, actually.

And to give Trump credit, and the Congress and the Senate and all they passed all these bills for stimulus. I have some friends on a group chat, and they were being super critical of Trump and everything else, and the loans not being fast enough. I'm like, this loan program did not exist. this three weeks ago. Oh, it's, it's amazing. And then it's up and running. And it's up and running. And you're complaining about like a week or two, you realize like a stimulus package

you just takes two or three years to pass? They did this in two or three weeks. Give them a break. What are you, what else are you positive about? What are you hopeful about? Hmm. You know, I am hopeful that science is going to find some way to get out, get us out of this mess sooner than 18 months. And I'm also hopeful that if it does take 18 months or longer, you know, that we are going to find ways to, you know, to kind of come together and support the people who need the support. All right.

On that note, David, thanks for coming on the pod. Congratulations on the recent success. Thank you. One more time. If you haven't used 15-5, it's... It's extraordinary and game changing, and it's free for now. What a mitzvah, how generous of you. 15F-I-V-E.com.

And then just in terms of my investment in the company, seven years ago. Yep. When I invested, what was the valuation in that round? What was the first valuation of the seed round? Four or five? The seed? I think we did a, well, we did a friends and family round. I think around two, and then I think when you invested it was probably six.

So I got in at six. Yep. Without going into too many details now, you've got 190 people. Yes. Making some serious bank, it's reoccurring revenue. That's right. Company is worth more than $6 million today. Oh, yeah.

So J-Cal could be looking at another one of these double-digit return. It's 2030X for J-Cal already. Could be. That's right. Thank you, David, for the hard work in entrepreneurship. It's been great to learn from you. I, you know, it's one of the great joys of my life is not only backing founders, but learning from them and getting to be in their lives. And, you know, you and I are not hanging out every week,

but the time we have spent together, I always feel like I'll learn something from you. And I just feel like you're like one of the best managers I've ever met, you know, and just, I mean that sincerely. Thank you. You're a great leader, a great manager. And it's been a great lesson for me because you did have that slow growth for what, the first four years? That's right. What year did it tip?

Actually, it didn't. Yeah, I think it was four years because it's just. 2016 that we had a little bit of a tip and then again in 2018 when we did the A and last year when we did the Series B. Think about that, 2013 to 2018 between the seed and the A. Yeah. People didn't believe in what you were doing back then. I remember it. I remember the nose. They didn't believe that this was like an important piece of software. They didn't believe in SaaS exactly. Something changed in the world, huh? It did. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

What was it? Because this is a really important. lesson for founders to stick around, stay in the game, hang around the rim. Good things happen, right? They do. And, you know, I was, I was looking at, um, a few trends when we started the company. Okay. So number one was the millennial generation, not just moving into the workforce, but would be moving into management. And I knew that was going to create a sea change, uh, in how they actually did things. It just took a few years longer than I expected. Right. Um, because it was the first truly digital native generation. They, you know, they look for, you know, they're, they want constant feedback. They're on Twitter, they're on Facebook, they get likes and reviews and everything's at their fingertips,

and why wouldn't we have the same kind of thing in the workplace? And then also technology is we get, you know, these mobile devices and more ubiquitous internet and the ability to work from anywhere. I thought that was going to be a trend. Now this, you know, the pandemic's accelerating it even faster, but that also happened. And then, you know, I think a lot of the big companies finally woke up in 2015. There was all this writing about how the annual performance review, which had been created, you know, 40, 50, 60 years ago, wasn't working for this time and place in history. We need to blow it up and do something differently.

And that also created a big opportunity. What a great lesson. Just if you're out there and you believe in what you're doing, sometimes staying in the game for that fourth or fifth or six a year, you know, you get that break. The world catches up to your vision. And the world has caught up to your vision, David Hassel. And I am so proud to be in business with you.

Follow David, a great leader, a great entrepreneur. great great friend of the pod in mine de hassle on the twitter d h a s s e l l 2 s is 2 e's 155 is free free right now yep 3 3 3 june 5 5 5 the number 1 the number 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 VE dot com and just really thank you if you want to go back in time episode 650 episode 790 and episode 907 David congrats on your great success and getting me a great return, super important, so I can go put more money to work and your fourth appearance here on This Weekend Serraps. Stay strong, brother. Okay, we're going to get through this. Thanks, Jason. Absolutely. Be cool. We'll see you all next time in the This Weekend Start of Super Slack. Nick at Launch.com. Tell them what you love about the show and he'll get you in if you give him a good

suggestion. Bye-bye.