This Week in Startups - E1064: News Roundtable! Sam Parr & Zach Coelius on Barstool Sports vs. Call Her Daddy, SoftBank’s $17B loss, TikTok poaches former Disney exec as CEO, Facebook launches Shops & more!

Episode Date: May 21, 2020

0:51 Jason intros Zach Coelius & Sam Parr 2:28 Barstool Sports vs. Call Her Daddy 6:49 Penn National Gaming stock soaring, Dave Portnoy winning this controversy 13:17 SoftBank reports $17.7B annual loss, worst figures in 39-year history 17:19 Does SoftBank's involvement typically include a loss of focus for the founder? 21:43 TikTok’s parent co. Bytedance trades at a $140B valuation, poaches Disney’s former Head of Streaming as new CEO of TikTok 25:08 Was Kevin Mayer wrong to take this role? Are TikTok's recommendation algorithms the best in the world? 28:52 How do Chinese companies grow so rapidly? 32:06 Facebook launches Shops, is Zuck trying to kill e-commerce giants? Zach on his experience with Facebook slowly killing his business 40:06 How does Facebook's product organization work? 47:13 Jason on the future of social networks 49:56 Amazon potentially acquiring AMC Theatres, could this be an Amazon Prime upsell? 53:52 Everyone gives their best idea for Amazon's first move after buying AMC 59:59 Zach on his quarantine deal flow

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This fund will deliver resources directly to organizations that can help make the most immediate impact in the fight against COVID-19. Learn more at SVB.com slash impact. All right, everybody, welcome back to this week in startups. It is, what is it, May 20th, 21st when you're hearing this, Thursday, May 8th. 21st. And we're going to do another news roundtable. We're in the middle of the pandemic, but things seem to be winding their way slowly, securitously, here in the Bay Area to reopening. Who knows what that will look like. We'll talk about that as well. But we're going to cover the news because even during a pandemic, technology companies, media companies are extremely active.

In fact, it feels like things are more active now than they've ever been. So business is continuing and I'm really excited to have Zach Collius back on the program. He's a managing partner at Collius Capital. You can follow him on the Twitter, Zach Colius C-O-E-L-I-U-S. And he invests in startups. We do it together sometimes and he's just a

world-class investor in human being. Welcome back to the program, Zach. Thank you. And with us is Sam Parr from The Hustle. I spoke at his conference and HustleCon, I think it was called. And he has the Hustle News newsletter and a new newsletter that's about trends, which we'll talk about.

And have you been on the podcast, Sam? No. No. We've hung out. We've hung, but you haven't been on you. We've hung. Yeah, and I was like, huh. But you're very active on the Twitter.

Yeah, I try to be. I think we have the same haters. Well, I think it's because we're both capitalists. And outspoken and sometimes obnoxious. Okay, well, there you have. Folks. Welcome to the program, Sam Farr, your first appearance, bringing the heat already. Let's get right into the news, shall we? There is a podcast that is called

Call Her Daddy. And it's published by Barstool Sports. Everybody knows Barstool Sports because the guy who runs it, Dave Portnoy, Portnoy, I think is how you pronounce his name, is an outspoken, obnoxious jerk as well. He's in the club. So the three of us should hang out and do jerk club at some point, obnoxious club. I know him because, well, you can't not know him because he's super controversial on Twitter, but I've seen him the last week or two day trading a $3 million position on CNBC and losing and winning a million dollars a time. He really knows how to get attention.

Anyway, they have a hit show called, what is the name of the show again? Call her daddy. Call her daddy. Now, they broke up. The two hosts are named Alexandra, Alex, and Sophia. and I guess it's a sex theme comedy podcast. I listen to the first 10 minutes. It's absolutely unlistenable.

They have the two most annoying voices ever I've heard in radio. It's just like the man show, but for women. Perfect. Got it. So I got about 10 minutes into it, and I felt like my ears were bleeding. But I could understand the appeal, I guess, I think. Now, do you listen to this, Sam, this podcast? Are you a fan of the podcast, a fan of Barstool?

I'm a fan of Barstool. I know all about Barstool. I know I'm a fan of their business. I know a fair bit about them. I've listened to the podcast a little bit. Same. Look, I'm not the target demo, but I get it. It's interesting.

So it's a really interesting story on a media basis, which Sam and I are both in the media business. They hired these two very talented people who built apparently a very successful podcast with two million plus downloads per episode and in the top 20 most popular podcast on Apple at times. and both hosts made $500,000 in 2019. However, they were making up to $100K in advertising per show, which is about $5 million a year. So I guess they were taking in 20% of the ad revenue

if they were sold out. But anyway, if they weren't sold out, they're taking about a third, but they didn't take the risk on it. Obviously, Barstool owned all the IP. And then a huge tell-all was released on the Call Her Daddy feed, which I did listen to, which is hilarious. Because Dave Portney clearly does not give any fucks about anything.

And he basically walks through the entire sordid tale of them trying to negotiate with them. And they came to him with this, like, ridiculous request to get paid a million dollars each, to get 90% of the merchandise, to get basically everything, and to own the IP, to which he told him to pound salt. And then I guess the punchline is one of their, one of the two host boyfriends was allegedly trying to, to get them over to Wondery, which is a bit of a disaster of a podcasting app platform that was trying to build the HBO podcasting, and that didn't work. And long story short, one of the two of them is going to come back and screwed the other one, and it's still up in the air, which then put

the podcast as the number one podcast on iTunes. So a cynical person would say, Dave, just, this is all put on, and they just have this breakdown in contract negotiations order to go to top, but that doesn't seem like what's happening here. What do you, what's your take on all this? Can I even, yeah. Can I even, I'll even simplify it. Let's simplify this into a, at three sentences, which is two, uh, these two women start a podcast at Barstile Sports. Within 12 months, it shoots up to be one of the biggest podcast in the world. Uh, one of the women's boyfriend works at HBO. He tries to go in their ear and say, hey, you're getting screwed. You need to get out of this deal. Both of them try to renegotiate. They end up getting in a fight with Dave. They end up fighting with

each other. And Dave is announcing to the world what's going on. Pretty much. It's a pretty good recap. That's what's going on right now. I think, and then what's happening is the woman who's, the woman and her boyfriend, uh, their name is, uh, Sophia and suit man. They're calling this guy, suit man. They are looking like fools right now in the media because Dave just calls them out and he posts their fit pictures and he says how stupid and greedy they are.

And long story short, what's going to happen, I think, is, uh, one of the women's got to come back and it's going to be a great deal. They're all going to, they're all going to do well. Um, what's interesting is, while all this is going on the best, background, Pan Gaming, which is the company that owns Barstool, its stock crash. It was at $30. It went down to $6 a share. Now it's gone back up to $28, $30 or so. It's almost back to where it should be. So Dave is winning because he just won a million dollars in the markets the other day. They sold the country for $600 million in stock recently, and that stock now is back to where it was.

And I think one of these women is going to come back and do the podcast. So he's having a, he's had a terrible last week and an incredible this week. And he's super transparent and entertaining about it. It's so fun. Now, tell me about the company that bought Barstool, because he's been doing Barstool for the better part of two decades, right? Like, this is a very old company. It's 17 years old. The company that bought it was called Penn Gaming.

When they bought Barstool, they were about $3.5 billion valuation. They basically are just our casinos. And they bought Barstool because Barstool has a, their fastest, it's kind of like Justin TV and Twitch. Their fastest growing, Barstool was only sports, but actually the fastest growing segment started small, but it was sports betting. Now it's quite huge. And once sports betting became legal, Penn goes, hey, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, you're going to, this is like our version of Disney Park.

So we're going to have like the Penn gaming barstool sports book over here. And then we're going to have the day port and white pizza bar over here, that type of thing. Ah, so he's there, uh, Star Wars or Marvel in this, uh, equation. And they were going to literally put bar stool, bar stools. in casinos and they were going to do all this online gambling. And so that's really, I think the meta story here is that online gambling combined with content could be a solution for the content industry. And I think the NBA is getting into gambling as well.

They want to have in arena wagering and all this kind of stuff. And Barstow was already making about $110 million a year in revenue. It in itself is a great business. But the day it bought Penn bottom, their Penn stock, went up a billion dollars or so. I mean, it popped big time. So a lot of people think this is a good deal. It's super interesting.

And the whole time, Dave is just, he doesn't hold back. He tells everyone what's going. He goes, I'm broke now with Penn. This was three weeks ago or three months ago. I'm broke now with Penn's stock going down in the gutter. Now I'm going to put $3 million in the account and day trade because sports betting doesn't exist anymore. Wow.

And then it comes right back. All right. Any thoughts on this snack? Sorry to drag you. to this sorted mess that Sam and I are delighting in as media executive. Anything to take away from... I'm watching and laughing and loving it. It's beautiful. Keep it going.

Did you see Donald Trump retweeted Portnoy yesterday? And Elon Musk said Portnoy should run for president or run for office. Yeah, he's definitely entertaining. He's got a Trump-like spastic, you know, unfiltered, nature. He's a loose canon. You get to watch this guy have meltdowns. It's just excited. Look, this is like our version of Kim Kardashian.

It was actually interesting. I think he came up in another episode where he said something about unions. And he's like, if you bring a union to Barstall store, it's like, I'll fire everybody, whatever. He said like. And then AOC hopped in. Yeah. And he goes, I'm going to crush you. Like, he goes, if anyone talks to that lawyer, I'm firing you.

Which is like literally the rule. number one of unions organizing is people have the right in America to labor has the right to organize. You can't fire them for organizing. Yeah, but he literally tweets that. He has this Alex Jones umbrella, which is like it's all entertainment. And in Portnoy's case, it truly is entertainment. And I think people understand that. Yeah, except when you get pulled in front of a lawyer and you get in trouble for, you know, actually having to explain that, right? And you get kicked up He's gone to jail two different times for their skits. One time he broke into the NFL like a game and they locked him up and he spent a couple of days in jail.

Another time he broke into the Super Bowl and they arrested him. So this guy's crazy. Oh, right. I heard about the Super Bowl thing. He went in a disguise, but they found him, right? Yeah. And then interestingly, Roger Goodell, the commissioner of the NFL basically has banned all bars to employees from the game. well, the other day, Roger Cadell auctioned off a chance to watch the football game in his man cave at his house.

And Dave won the bid. And so he spent a quarter million dollars. And so now he's going to be spending the evening with this guy who hates him. And so it's wonderful. That's nice to see somebody out there. Just trolling. Yes. But, yeah, no, you cannot use the parody to get out of everything.

Like, if you actually send or somebody or actually commit a crime, you don't get to say parody. Like, you don't get to murder somebody or steal their car and say parody. A judge will still put you in jail and you'll still be liable. He's paying the toll for my laughter. All right. When we get back from this quick break, we'll throw it to Zach and talk about soft banks. Ginormous $17 billion annual loss. When we get back on this week's terms.

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All right. Welcome back to this week and Dave Portnoy. I kid. Moving on to additional business news, SoftBank reported a $17.7 billion annual loss overall, worst figures in its 39-year history. The $100 million vision fund went from the group's main contributor of profit a year ago to its biggest drag-on earnings.

The situation is exceedingly difficult. Our unicorns have fallen into the sudden coronavirus ravine, but some of them will use this crisis to grow wings, Masayoshi-san. A number of people referenced my Pegasus blog post for this one. And there was actually a slide in the deck, which we'll pull up on the screen in a moment, if we can find it, with literally unicorns in a ditch going up in hell. And then one of them flying over the chasm. Uber share price was responsible for $5 billion of the Vision Fund's losses.

If you don't know, they bought privately at a price that is slightly higher than Uber's trading at now. And WeWork, of course, contributed $4.6 billion in those losses. WeWork is now valued at $2.9 billion, which is down over 90% from a peak that clearly it never actually achieved. SoftBank has invested more than $18 billion in it and owns most of the company. That is WeWork. Masayoshi-San says he regrets investing and we were calling the move foolish, which actually I didn't know. And another $7.5 billion losses given the rest of the portfolio. And SoftBank is finalizing a deal to sell $20 billion in T-Mobile to raise capital.

So, Zach, what are your thoughts on the whole, there it is, the value of coronavirus? What's a little ridiculous about this is the issues for WeWork have nothing to do or had nothing to do with coronavirus. And I would argue that the issues that WeWork has had were greater prior to coronavirus. virus than after. That's saying something. Zach, what's your take on this whole, let's call it, 30-month experiment in the Vision Fund here in Silicon Valley?

What's your take on it? How will we look back on it? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of very cynical takes to be had. Easy to be cynical, yeah. You know, it's easy to look at what happened and point a lot of fingers. But I think the lesson that I really sort of take away from

this is that in startups focuses everything. And especially when you have sort of a growth stage company where they've spent the majority of their time and attention, there's a really, it's really easy for executives inside the company to empire build and to run off and try to do new things outside of the core focus area of the business. And by shoving way more capital into these businesses than the businesses needed and wanted and expecting them to grow at faster rates than they were. growing at the point that soft bank invested, I think they really created a strategic imperative

for these businesses to, you know, expand focus and to enable executives to basically take that capital and run around and do crazy shit. And I mean, I think it's pretty clear systematically across all of their investments that that's a really, really bad strategy. And so, you know, for me anyway, I look at that as a reminder of like, okay, great. We saw what happens if you try to go off, you know, from where your core is. Keep it focused. Like if, and, yeah, I mean, poker analogy comes to mind here, you know, you, you win a couple of pots, big pots, and then you start playing every hand. Every hand. And you're playing at a position. And suddenly you're thinking like, yeah, my, my 5-8 off suit, this could be the one. Like, yeah,

I'll play this under the gun. And then you start realizing, like, well, why am I playing that hand? Do I have to play that hand? Or can I have a sip of coffee and check my SMS messages for a moment and not play, you know, two-seven. off in 10, 5 because it's not going to work out. It just placed way too many bets and too many big ones. But if Uber rebounds... I think it's more than... I think it's more than just the bets, right?

I think if, like, if you look at Uber pre-Masa and post-Masa, if you look at WeWork, pre-and-post-Mossi. If you look at almost every business in a pre-post softbank involvement, you had pre-Masa, Uber was super focused. I mean, they were growing like crazy, but they were really, really focused on getting done what they need to get done. And Masa went in there and said, here's endless money, do whatever you want.

And by the way, I want you to do everything. And lo and behold, Uber went from super focused to super unfocused. And the consequences were pretty calamitous. Yeah. But I don't think that that's like a thing about the strategy. Because if you look at Masa Sons, if you look at his history, like, have you, if you ever study SoftBank, like this is what they did. They were not focused ever. it worked wonderfully.

No, no, yeah, but we're talking about the, I think Zach is talking about the impact on the founders to receive such a large amount of money. Yes. I don't think it's soft banks being unfocused because Moss has always been unfocused, right? Like, he's all over the place. But I think that the way that in order for him

to enter into this point in the market and to compete with the existing growth investors, because of the nature of this market, he had to come in with more capital at higher prices. And when he did that, he drove up the expectations on those businesses and gave them a lot of capital to deploy. And so they had to move off of their organic growth rates that they were on with whatever their current focus was and expand their endeavors.

And they all did it. Across the portfolio, all those businesses expanded their focus. And we all know what happens when you expand focus. Shit, it all breaks down. Yeah, if you're working on 10 things, it's not as good as working on 2. I mean, it's pretty obvious things are going to go better. Yeah, I knew something was up when I had Tina Sharkey on the podcast and Brandlis, which I thought was a brilliant idea. Kind of like the Uniclo of like delivered foods.

And I was like, this is an idea that'll work. I could see myself getting into this, putting stuff on subscribe and save. You know, who cares what the box says? Just get me the thing that I trust that I know is made to the highest standard for my family and I'll just buy it from you forever. And they raised 200 million. And I think they got it in two torrents of 100 million and eventually came out. But I just thought, that's an ungodly amount of money. How does anybody stay focused?

And how do you look at an employee who says, I would like to have my salary doubled and say no, right? Like, you just can't have no frugality. Can you raise these rounds and just not tell anyone? Because I mean, I've got a few friends who have raised like 30 million and they're able to kind of keep it under wraps. That seems like actually the best strategy is to take this $200 million from soft bank and just not say a word. Yeah, it's very hard to keep it quiet. unless it's an inside round. And SoftBank's idea was we're going to pick the winners,

anoint them, and be very public about the amount of money, and that capital is an advantage. And we had Jeff on the podcast, that was their idea. Capital is an advantage. So we'll give you so much capital that other people won't even come into the market. Other people won't even try to compete, right? That was their idea. And, of course, it's not working very well at this point.

I mean, I think you can basically say at this point, point systematically it's failed. And there's a lot of different arguments for why, but I think focus for me, it was what I really point to. Because if you look at Google or Facebook, I mean, especially in the early days, both of those businesses were just incredibly focused. I mean, you think about Chrome. Chrome seemed like such an obvious thing for Google to build, but they didn't build it for

years and years and years and years because Eric was saying, no, no, no, stick to the knitting, stick to the knitting. And they waited until they were really established before they started branching out doing lots of other stuff. And other bets for Google has been money losing net. And they really, the growth has come from them buying things that were, had great product market fit and being fearless about buying it. They bought YouTube and they bought Android, right?

Google Analytics. Google Analytics. Yeah, I mean, there was a handful. And then if you look at Facebook, it's the same story, right? They just were bold about acquisitions. Apple, not bold about acquisitions. Amazon, bold about acquisitions, Whole Foods. Yeah.

All right, let's move on to TikTok. I thought this was kind of interesting. I don't understand why we allow TikTok to be in this country as a Chinese company when, in fact, our social networks are not allowed there. I don't know how anybody considers this not spyware by the Chinese government. However, an incredible wrinkle just happened. Bight Dance is now trading at $140 billion. and they've poached Disney's former head of streaming as the new CEO of TikTok.

Kevin Mayer was runner-up to replace Bob Iger, and he lost out to Bob Chippec, if I'm pronouncing correctly. He made himself for a name, Kevin, that is, made a name for himself as the head of Disney's direct-to-consumer group and oversaw the launch of Disney Plus, which is extraordinary. He also played a role in all the acquisitions from Lucasfilm to Pixar. to Marvel in 21st century. And I guess the question here is

I guess did Disney drop the ball on promoting him? Or what do you guys think about top U.S. executives running Chinese startups or at-scale companies?

Can we even first talk about bite dance? Is it bite dance or bit dance? Bydance. It's B-Y-T and that would be a bite in typical parlors. yeah well so whenever i so i've read a fair bit about this company it how the hell did these companies get so big so fast like this so like uh because this was i believe ticot is just one of their like side products no or it started they bought it they bought it from somebody and then rebranded it

musically musically yeah so yeah i don't know and i i'm assuming this trades in china and i don't know how the valuations work in china of these companies i mean they could have a giant stock bubble over there as well. And I don't trust any of the numbers coming out of China. No, it makes billions in revenue. Yeah. I know they spent hundreds of millions of dollars two years ago or a year ago on marketing the United States. I don't know if you remember Facebook and other people, you would see TikTok ads everywhere. And I don't know how wise it was to let them do that. But let me just say this. Do you guys think that America should let Chinese companies, in fact, every American's phones and track them everywhere they go and have had.

access to their cameras and microphones. Does this not concern anybody but me? I still struggle with that concern from a, from a sort of like national security perspective because I'm not really sure what data that they're going to be all to collect as a result of that. I'm more sensitive and I agree with you that not allowing U.S. companies to operate on an equal playing field in China, but basically Chinese software companies operate with carte blanche in the United States is pretty problematic. And I think it's another indication of the failure of, you know, the U.S. government to enforce trade laws effectively.

The Chinese have gotten away with a lot for a long time now. And we need to, they need to, we need to even that playing field. Yeah. And I don't think that's even a Trump position. I think even Bernie Sanders had a pretty hawkish position on this relationship. And I don't understand what American would want to work for a Chinese company. You know, this Kevin Mayer is going to wind up being in a situation where he's going to have to turn over people for having an opinion in China who will then be tortured and put in jail. And so for Kevin Mayer, what are you thinking?

Why would you go work for a communist country and a communist company? Well, what do you think? Money? Yeah, I mean. Opportunity. Yeah. He's definitely the CEO of one of the most powerful. It's like being the CEO of Snapchat at the moment.

I mean, they're similarly sized. It makes perfect sense why he would want to do that. But I actually think that young people have incredibly high bullshit detectors, and they know that this is a Chinese company. And I think it does make a lot of them nervous. And that's the only reason why they hired this guy, not for the content. So then what Kevin Mayer is doing is, then, he is giving cover for a Chinese company. And that's something I would not sleep well at night knowing.

I would, if I was him, I would really think this through. I think it's a terrible career choice, to be totally honest. Why would you want to be subservient to the Chinese government in this regard, right? It makes no sense. And if you don't believe me, just look at what happened to Yahoo. Yahoo executives were put in an impossible position of having to have their employees go to jail and be banned from going to China because they had to turn over dissidents. They had to turn over people for religious beliefs.

You're basically buying into confidence. If you go work for a communist, a company that is headquartered in a communist country. That's what Kevin Mayer is doing. Kevin Mayer is now a communist. As far as I'm concerned, he's supporting a communist company. I mean, I don't know. I know that's funny for everybody to think about, but I would feel the same way about somebody who went to work for the Saudis and worked in a Saudi company that was, you know, anti-gay or

anti-women or anti-human rights, right? That's what we're talking about here. You're talking about going over for money to go sell out for money, which you can make here just as easily, just like the NBA selling out by, you know, throwing Darry under the bus for supporting Hong Kong. Like, where is the morals of the American business person when in relation to China, which is a very dangerous adversary for us to have in which tortures and imprisons people in the millions? Do you let your children use TikTok? No, I would never. No, I'm going to try to keep them off social media for as long as possible, number one, because it leads to depression, it leads to anxiety. So I want to keep them off of that as long as possible.

And I would never let them on these social networks because I think they're going to be targeted, right? I think there's a lot of bad psychological impacts. I think you can be targeted by predators and other stuff like that. Do you use it, Zach? No, I don't use TikTok. But I have a lot of friends who do. I mean, it's actually a very well-done product. And their recommendation algorithms are probably at this point the best in the world as far as I can tell.

So one of the things is really interesting about the way their algorithm seems to work is it seems to be able to personalize the content to you as the individual within a very short interaction period. And to have a, it has a very tight feedback loop, which from what I understand technically is very difficult to pull off. Back to your earlier question about why they got as big as they did as fast as they did. Like, they really have innovated and built some pretty amazing stuff over there. Yeah, I mean, it is amazing. I use TikTok. It's, it's shockingly addicting. It's just amazing how these Chinese companies grow so fast.

I just, the dot-com bubble in America was something interesting, but I've read a lot, I like to read a lot about the Chinese companies around that era, and they were even more epic. It got bigger, faster, and crumbled faster. Well, you have a billion people, right? And you have no accountability. Fraud could be rampant and you would never know, right? So, you know, the corruption over there. As much as you could look at situations like Veranos here or accounting fraud or whatever, you know, over there, the government literally picks the winners. And, you know, the monetary system is managed. And who knows what's reality? That's why people ask me, like, what's your favorite Chinese stock? I'm like, I would never. play in a rigged casino. That's like going to a home game run by a bunch of like mafia guys. Like you don't know what you're up against. The deck could be marked. The other seven players in the game could be playing from one chip stack. So it's seven versus one. Like this is a really bad idea. I mean, look at luck and coffee. They were claiming they had what twice as many,

twice as much coffee being sold. And that thing became one of the fastest growing unicorns there ever. I would assume that most of the unicorns over there are a significant number of them. are involved in some amount of what happened at Luckin. Yeah, I still, there is definitely this, like, sense of admiration, though I had from, to me, it's like a love-hate thing, you know? Like, I disagree with a lot of what these guys stand for, but it's almost like being a boxer.

It's like I fear them and I want to crush them, but I respect them. And I'm incredibly fascinated with a lot of these Chinese entrepreneurs, Japanese, like, Masa Sun as well. Yeah, they really do want to dominate the world and build very large companies in China. Like that is the goal. And they have this giant market.

You think about the size of the market there is just having over a billion consumers and having four or five consumers for everyone we have, even though our consumers spend more money in aggregate. They have a lot of consumers. Any further thoughts on that, Zach? All right, when we get back from this quick break, we'll talk a little bit about Facebook launching shops

on Facebook and Instagram and partnering with Shopify and others. And if this will be a giant boost for the ad-driven business to get in on e-commerce when we get back on this week's service. As we navigate unprecedented time, Silicon Valley Bank believes that collective action is the best way to overcome the challenges we're all up against. This is why Silicon Valley Bank, in partnership with founders pledge, has formed the COVID-19 global impact and innovation fund. This fund will deliver resources directly to organizations around the world that can help make the most immediate impact in the fight against COVID-19. Silicon Valley Bank has made an

initial $1 million investment to fund this critical work and invites you to join them in helping those in need.