This Week in Startups - How AI splits startups into winners and losers | E2322

Starting point is 00:00:00 All right, everybody, welcome back. It's this week in Startups with me again. My guy, Lon Harris. We've got two amazing guests today. We're going to get to them in a moment. We've got a row.com weight bet that's coming at the end of the show and my brother Jamie and Lon. And lots of news.

Starting point is 00:00:14 This week in Startups is brought to you by Lightfield, the AI Native CRM that updates itself so your team never has to. Try it for free at lightfield. Century. Your team should be focused on shipping features, not chasing down bugs. New users can get $240 in free credits when they go to century.io slash twist and use the code twist. And DigitalOcean. Want to see what building on a true AI-native platform looks like?

Starting point is 00:00:40 Head to DO.com slash twist to start building on DigitalOcean's AI Native cloud today and cut your AI workload costs by up to 50%. The first thing I want to get to is markets, Lon. We've had a lot of market activity. Markets hit an all-time high, as many people know. But what it's been surprising is after this hedge fund blew up, situational awareness, he had a lot of shorts on SaaS companies. Correct. And SaaS companies have been taken to the woodshed, right?

Starting point is 00:01:12 We just saw Airtable get sold. I think we talked about that already on Wednesday show. But companies that have embraced AI and gone AI first have had a little bit of a turnaround here. And it's a mixed bag. But if you look at, and I want to just go through three people who reported earnings, Airbnb, Figma, and then Twilio. Now, I own all of these, I believe, and I bought them all during like the COVID, right after COVID when I started J-Training, I think in 2023. So I think I'm like massively up on all of them. But let's do this rapid fire.

Starting point is 00:01:47 We'll get through these three important companies and what we can learn from them by their AI, embracing of AI or not. All right. So we'll start off with design software Figma, down about 77% from its high of $122, set shortly after last year's public offering. It's at about $23.81 right now. Co-founder and CEO, Dylan Fields, actually given up around $46 million in stock awards, which he was set to receive back in July in hopes of boosting investor confidence. Here's his quote. Dilution is something that I feel just like our shareholders feel, given that this is an investment period right now. That felt like the thing that made sense to do.

Starting point is 00:02:25 For his part, Field posted on Exit, he thinks things are going generally well. He points to $370 million in revenue in Q2, 48% year-over-year revenue growth rate. It's their third straight quarter, Jason, of accelerated growth for Figma. You just bought in a big J-trade on Figma only about a month ago after getting into a discussion about the health of the company with Dillon Field on X. Yeah, what did I get in? What is the price I got in? So I got in at $22.

Starting point is 00:02:52 So I'm basically at par right now. I bought 4,500 shares. And, you know, when I see a founder being a little bit chippy, a little bit with something to prove, and founder-led companies, especially when they're public, they have founder-led authority. For Figma, him giving up a huge stock grant brings up a bigger issue, which is stock-based compensation. And a lot of companies lawn have gotten into. giving huge amounts of stock-based compensation a year, one, two, three percent. If you're a shareholder and the company's not doing well and the management team is giving out, you know, one, two, three percent of the company every year, I think Snap was kind of in this

Starting point is 00:03:37 with a lot of stock-based comp going on. And they don't put it into their books. So you don't take it as an expense. They kind of put it off the books. And this has made, you know, sophisticated investors Bill Gurley talks about it a lot. But it's a tough thing to bring up because you want people to be incented by stock. But if the company's not doing well and you're taking out one or two or three percent of the company every year, you're diluting over five years, 15, 20 percent of the company while the stock is sideways, that gets people's Irish up. And then shareholders are like, I don't want to be involved in this company because

Starting point is 00:04:15 they're just taking and taking and not performing. So I think what Dylan did here with Figma saying, hey, I'm not going to take. I think it's like a $50 million grant. He probably owns 20, 30% of the company. I'm taking a guess here. That would be a high number for a publicly traded company. But what does he need another $50 million? He's already, you know, if he owns 10% of the company even, he's got a billion plus.

Starting point is 00:04:37 It's an $11 billion market cap company. So this is signaling, which is, hey, I'm not going to try to make an extra 2, 3, 4, 5% on my net worth. I'm going to give that back to the shareholders, and I'm going to show you. how great this company is. Now, of course, they're up against Claude design. They're up against Gemini. They're up against some serious competition. But I like a founder-led company. I think the stock will be trading at 2x in three years. That's my guess. Right now, if they're making 350 a quarter, I think is what you said, puts them at $1.4 billion. That means they're trading at like nine times sales or something in that range, which is pretty high multiple. We'll see what

Starting point is 00:05:19 the earnings multiple is over time. But I believe in the founder. I think he understands designers and design. I don't think design's going away. I think we're just going to get more great design. Now, if we go to the next company, which is Twilio, this story is also pretty fascinating. People had given this company up for dead, no longer founder led, but they're up 30% today. So give us a story here.

Starting point is 00:05:43 Thanks for our friends at Perplexity, by the way, for helping us out with this. Twilio shares are surging up to 31% to near 52%. week highs after the company delivered a blowout Q2 2026 report and sharply raised full year guidance, revenue of a dollar revenue of 1.5 billion top estimates and grew 22% year over year. That's 17% organic while adjusted EPS of a 1.47 beat consensus by over 11% driven by record free cash flow of 352.6 million and accelerating organic growth. Yeah. So it's becoming a money printing machine. They have free cash flow. That means they could buy their stock back or they can acquire companies. But they have started to do a conversational layer and they're doing AI. So as people

Starting point is 00:06:32 remember, Twilio was an API if you call an Uber and you get a text message or an in-app message or you want to go shopping somewhere and you get SMS messages, email messages. They did all that. So it's like AWS for messaging. And so everybody plugs their application into that. And people were spending millions of dollars a year with this. Now they're adding agents and AI that will take live conversations and then have these conversations between agents, sending messages to each other, which is something that people are going to want to have, and routing, you know, customer support, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:07:14 So I think that they are turning this around because they have embraced AI fully. And that's really what all these SaaS companies need to do if they want to survive. And the per seat model was under attack, Lon. And Twilio never had that. They were always based on consumption. How many messages are you going to send? So it's interesting to see that company turn around. Yeah, Dylan owns 9% of the company.

Starting point is 00:07:38 So he's got a billion dollars there in equity. By the bye, I'm going to share my screen. You are asking for companies that have the large. largest percentage of stock-based compensation. They note that it's difficult to say this, and now we don't have a totally open kimono for all of these private companies, but based on what we do know,

Starting point is 00:07:54 S-1 filings, OpenAI seems to be leading with about $6 billion in estimated annual stock-based compensation, followed by SpaceX-X-XAI with about $2.8 billion, and then they're guesstimating that Stripe, Databricks, and Anthropic would follow pretty close behind. In terms of public companies, we've got alphabet leading the way,

Starting point is 00:08:14 25 billion in annual stock-based comp, then meta, 20.4 billion, then Amazon, 19.5 billion, and then NVIDIA with 16.2 billion. So these are ranked, just so you know, by the total amount of stock-based comp, which, you know, those are very big companies. The way, you know, sophisticated investors might look at it is, what is it as a percentage of revenue? And if you look at Snowflake, that's 35 percent. I think their stock-based comp is at 35 percent of their revenue number. And that's when people get a little tweaked is when, you know, this gets to be 20%, 30% of revenue. So just small in the weeds observation. Let's go on to Airbnb. This stock has been much maligned. And everybody thought Airbnb was going to be this rocket ship. Yeah? Yeah. And that kind of hasn't

Starting point is 00:09:05 happened. If you were to look at the Airbnb, say, five-year chart and there was a lot of excitement about it because it's such a great product. Today, they're trading at $140. So if you put money into this company, it's been sideways forever. But they did have a big rebound. So maybe we would talk a little bit about that in today's results. Airbnb CEO, Brian Chesky says AI is improving every part of their business. He's ready to spend more on tokens. Chesky said the gains are measurable.

Starting point is 00:09:36 AI is helping Airbnb attract more bookings, making it easier for hosts, lowering customer service costs. The travel and booking company were reporting. Q2 earnings that beat expectations and raised full year guidance thanks to CNBC for that. Quick update. Yeah. The truth is, most of the big popular models can handle your AI workloads. Now, your performance, not to mention your cost, that really comes down to your infrastructure,

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Starting point is 00:11:07 How? well, their earnings could surge if they can lower costs and maybe find more customers. They do have a challenge, I think, which is some people have, there's a bit of a war. Yeah, Lon, I don't know the last time you did an Airbnb, but the novelty. You did one recently. I was in Rome. When I was in Rome, we stayed at an Airbnb. Let's see if this came up, the number of instructions and the 10th, the number of instructions and the tension between Airbnb hosts and their annoyance at the customer staying in their homes or

Starting point is 00:11:43 their properties in some case, this has like turned a corner where they're just, it feels like angry at the customer base. Yes. I did not. In Rome, Julia and Federica, my host lovely, they were wonderful. I had no tension at all. But when I moved to Austin, I was staying at Airbnb's until I could fully move in and my furniture arrived and I could move into my

Starting point is 00:12:08 new house. So I was in two or three different Airbnb's and this was a chronic problem where there was a lot of hostility coming at me and there were so many rules. The trash goes here and do this and turn this off and don't go in here and don't touch this and go here and park here but not right there

Starting point is 00:12:25 parked next to that by the trash kit and I had a neighbor even yelling at me that I parked in the wrong place even though I thought I had followed the instructions and at a certain point I do agree you're like I should have just stayed at a hotel. Hotels don't give you any flat, there's no agita, you just get in, you put your stuff down. I do feel like some of these Airbnb's it's becoming a little bit fraud. Yeah, and I think they need to bifurcate it.

Starting point is 00:12:46 Like, they need to have the hosts who understand service and go through service training. Will Garado, who wrote Unreasonable Hospitality. I had him on the program. Oh, yeah, I too remember that. I'll look at him. He's awesome. But they need to bucket. This is what I would do if I was Brian. I would put people through host training. buy them the book, Unreasonable Hospitality, and say, if you are in this category of hosts. Will Godara, Will Godara. Will Godara.

Starting point is 00:13:14 Thank you. And the movie, the TV show, The Bear, is based upon his unreasonable hospitality insights in large part. And he actually, I think, was a producer. And I think he appears on one of the episodes, like, as like he's at dinner with the other restaurateurs. Anyway, they need to have a certification and a star for delightful hosts who want to service you.

Starting point is 00:13:36 I had two experiences over the summer. My wife likes to stay in Airbnb because she wants everybody in the kitchen and in the living room together. Sure. I would have preferred to stay at some hotels. Anyway, because I like the full service nature of them. We had a serious problem in Paris. People kept saying the hotel, the Airbnb's had air conditioning. And then the air conditioner was like Jimmy rigged.

Starting point is 00:14:01 It was just, here's an air conditioner. The doors are open out, you know, out the windows. and you've got hot air coming in and this little hose going out, you know, charming of them to try to fix the air conditioning problem. Yeah, but it didn't work. So now I'm back and forth with the guy that like, he's like, listen, I give him a lot of credit. He was like, if you want to leave, I'll just charge you for the night you stay. I understand.

Starting point is 00:14:23 That was good. That's nice, yeah. Then I was like, yeah, but that's going to be like a big inconvenience. And then the elevator's broken. I said, maybe we should just work out a discount. Give me a 10% discount. I don't even need the discount. But I thought that was a nice thing.

Starting point is 00:14:35 It's nice for him to meet you halfway. They already have the super host concept. So I feel like it's a natural, like, well, those people should have a little background in hosting and hospitality. Let me, before we move on, I do want to get to our guest. Harmonic. I do want to go back to Harmonic because I got exactly what we were looking for. Let me just share my screen here again one more time. And Harmonic for people know is like just a huge database of startup knowledge and company knowledge.

Starting point is 00:15:03 It's incredible. It's great. You just, you could prompt it just like. you would in LLM, but it's got incredibly deep knowledge about all these startups. So here we go. The full spectrum of here is a ranking of companies based on SBC as a percentage of revenue. IONC, number one, 240% OpenAI, about 46%. Snowflake, which we mentioned before, 35%. J. Frog, 28%, at Lassian, 25%. And you could see the rest of the list from there. Took just a moment to pull up, thanks to our friends at Harmon. You know, when things are going well, so in those

Starting point is 00:15:36 private companies. And what I love about this data from Hermannic, and thank you to them for supporting the show. What I love about this data is you got private companies and you got public companies in there. Now, if you're in a private company, you want the VCs, want there to be a lot of stock-based comp. Why? You want the best talent. You don't want them to leave. And so, yeah, you want to be super generous with stock-based compensation. And the revenue is, you know, just starting to kick up. So as a percentage of revenue, nobody really cares. It's like, Let's just make this thing grow. As long as you don't dilute the investors massively, it's all good.

Starting point is 00:16:12 But in a public trading company, now you've got institutions zoning it, and they're looking at it, and they've got a menu of choices, Juan, and they're pulling up harmonic and they're looking at other things and saying, hey, across our portfolio, you know, if you're Ackman and you've got 12 names, he might look at it and say, which of these names is the management team just out of sync on stock-based companies? compensation, and then he has, you know, or somebody like Brad Gersner, they have people's ear. I think Ackman owns 30 million shares of Uber as an example. Yesterday, he started talking about Uber and it being underpriced. The CFO got involved. Dara was getting involved. They had their results, which were spectacular again, but the stock is still, you know, frozen in the 70s. And what's interesting is, you know, he comes out.

Starting point is 00:17:01 He has something to say that they're going to listen. Yeah. Because, you know, it's 30 million shares. a lot more shares than I own. And so, you know, it's super important for publicly traded companies a little bit easier to deal when you're a product coming. Thanks to Harmonic. Yeah, great data.

Starting point is 00:17:17 Check it out yourself, harmonic.a.i. All right, let's get into our first interview. We're going to bring on, he's from Blue Core Energy, Jason. They are, and I'm very curious about this, they make small modular nuclear reactors that are then mounted on barges. And they're using them right now to power ports. And the idea is one day, maybe data centers after that. We're going to talk about it.

Starting point is 00:17:40 The CEO and founder of Blue Corps Energy, Kofi Asante. Thanks for joining us, Kofi. Hey, yeah, good to see you all. Yeah, thanks for having me. You're putting floating nuclear modular reactors on barges. Explain to people first what a small modular nuclear reactor is and the state of that technology. And is that in what is the state of those being deployed?

Starting point is 00:18:05 just prior to you putting them on barges. Yeah, well, thanks for having me. Love the show. And, you know, part of our logic here actually starts with like the pain point. So I'll start all the way at the top. The problem that I found pretty often across the board, whether you're at a port or talking to AI data center or, you know, a community without access to a lot of energy is that you just can't get the energy you

Starting point is 00:18:31 need and you can't get it quickly. You can't get the amount that you need. And so by process of elimination, whenever you need to get a lot of energy, you need to get it quickly, you want it to be clean, and then you also have a small footprint, and you need to be distributed fast. Nuclear ends up being one of the best solutions here. And so we didn't invent light water reactors. We didn't invent nuclear, right? Like, this has been around for 70 years, 20% of the electricity in the U.S. already comes from this same type of reactor. The Navy already uses this for submarines and ships for propulsion.

Starting point is 00:19:06 They have an incredibly safe record. But for us, we think this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to actually just make the reactor smaller, leverage a lot of the existing supply chain that's existed, and then distribute it in the right spots. Because when you put it on a barge, you can move that barge by tugboat to all sorts of different locations. And so when you think about SMR technology, one of the best things about it is, is it small, it's compact, it's modular, which means you can actually have a production facility, which gets the cost down. And then it's so energy dense that something literally the size of like your iPhone could probably power this whole facility for like a year.

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Starting point is 00:20:40 use the code twist for $240 in Century credits. Make sure you use that code. Make sure you use that URL, sentry.com slash twist, so they know your Uncle JCal sent you. So are there small modular reactors in communities in the United States? I know they exist on nuclear submarines. And when people say nuclear submarines law, and I think they typically think,

Starting point is 00:21:02 oh, they've got nuclear bombs on them. Right, they have a nuclear payload. They have a payload. Nuclear powered as well, yes. They're powered. Powered, exactly. And so I've always wondered, if you can put this into a nuclear sub,

Starting point is 00:21:14 and nobody seems to have a problem with it, or maybe the public just doesn't understand that there are some number of these in the water, underwater, and they could crash at any time. It could be, you know, an underwater Fukushima. Like now, and I just watched a documentary on Fukushima. My God, so many mistakes were made with that.

Starting point is 00:21:35 Seawall and where they placed it and the technology is completely different, but we should get into that. Why are we, in your mind, Kofi, or the public, so accepting or clueless about nuclear subs? And I'm assuming there are dozens of them from different nations out there in the ocean right now, But do we have small modular reactors in communities or on the ground in the United States? If not, why not? Part of the exercise here is that reactors have been functioning safely behind the scenes for a long time. I mean, it's very possible that even like this room or the room you're in has some sort of electricity that comes from a larger industrial plant.

Starting point is 00:22:20 There are 93 industrial plants in the country that are powering 20% of the electricity. And so that's happening just. But those aren't SMRs, right? Those are big ones. Exactly. Those are big ones. And so for small modular reactors, there's actually a number of great startups that are, you know, going after making sure that this is now available and accessible.

Starting point is 00:22:41 You know, the regulations are, you know, in a position now where they understand that there's a big need, plus there's been a big safety record. And so they're working with industry in a special way to allow. small modular reactors to be available. If you want to currently go and get like a commercial small modular reactor and put it with your community, there are great companies that are working towards that. But there's none of them on the ground, right? Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:23:08 There's none on the ground, US. And the reason there's none on the ground is what? I mean, we know we have these legacy ones. We know the Trump administration has been very pro and they broke the log jam here, which I think you should give them credit for, we all should give them credit for. But if small modular reactors are being produced for submarines, why aren't they, you know, powering a data center right now? Yeah, the way that we've at least looked at it, because I think everybody might have a slightly different opinion on this. But from my perspective, when it was building Blue Corps, I think about it as like a supply chain production and distribution opportunity, right?

Starting point is 00:23:47 Like that is the challenge. So from a supply chain standpoint, a lot of times you're building large-scale industrial plants, but now if you build them smaller, that actually allows you to get into production. Then when you're thinking about distribution, a lot of them typically you have to go and excavate into the land and go get the right permits and put them right in the right spots. Even if you want to build a new home,

Starting point is 00:24:09 let alone like a nuclear reactor, that's an extensive process. But for a lot of rural communities that are landlocked, that's going to be phenomenal. Like that's going to be really helpful. And so for us, it's like when you get a barge, These barges are, they could be literally like football stadium size amount of real estate and you can move them around very, very quickly. And so I just, I don't know if, you know, I came to that conclusion by spending a lot of time at the port and, you know, working on electric ships.

Starting point is 00:24:38 It may not necessarily be obvious to everyone, but we've been really fortunate because the port's been excited and, you know, AI data centers are also getting excited about it. And so I think when you actually get production to the right pace, right, like treat this more like an automotive exercise, then you can get the cost down to make it economical. And then do you have a lot of the macro level trends from regulations that are really eager and working deeply with industry to understand in depth how to how to support? And so the combination of that where you have the private sector, there's venture capital following a lot of these startups, you have production facilities that can ramp up and actually get the economics to the right spot. And then you have the regulation that now is, you know, keeping pace with industry and in a special way. I think that's the like once in a generation dynamic that's happening, not just for us, but I think for a lot of small modular reactor companies too.

Starting point is 00:25:30 You mentioned the port. You're actually at the port of Long Beach right now. That's where you're in my old, my old hometown of Los Angeles. And I'm so fascinated because when we think about new data center projects, new energy projects, there's so much resistance. And I would think of Los Angeles, Long Beach being. one of those places that would put up a lot of resistance. Are you getting any pushback or is this so, like when you're doing things at the port

Starting point is 00:25:53 and you're doing things offshore, people kind of don't notice that it's happening. Yeah, you know, we stayed in stealth very intentionally for the first portion of our business because I wanted to actually have the direct conversations with the local leaders here. So like, you know, spend time with the mayor, spend time with the CEO of the port, spend time with all the communities that care and are going to hopefully be able to get this like zero emission energy. My wife's a pediatrician in the area. We're local here. You know, we care about the impact of clean energy on kids and, you know, our facility. I wanted it to be based here so that everybody understands that when we say it's safe, we are literally standing right next to it.

Starting point is 00:26:29 We like, we care about that. Right. And you plan on making your own reactor, yeah? Exactly. So you're not just buying one of these. You're making them and then you're going to put them on a barge. And then the barge has a tether, a cable that goes to the port of Long Beach or to the city of Long Beach and provides energy? Is that how this is going to work? Yeah, exactly. Our barge, I mean, put in perspective, I got the bars that's sitting right outside, like, if you check out anything on our website or pictures or videos, I got that from San Diego. So I went down to San Diego, was talking with one of the leaders who own that barge and he's so helpful. And I was like, okay, we'll take it. He's like, great. He's like, when do you need it? I was like, when do you need it in a few

Starting point is 00:27:10 days. They're like, awesome. They'll be there. And they got it like to the, to the like minute. They were able to deliver it when I asked for it. How far offshore is the barge going to be? This is the obvious question people are going to have. How far off shore is it going to be? And then who has jurisdiction? And when does jurisdiction end? I'm curious. Yeah, you know, so far, depending on who you talk to, I mean, we work with, you know, American Bureau of Shipping, Coast Guard, nuclear regulatory commission, Department of Energy, right? We, we embed ourselves deeply with, with everybody to make sure we have the right guidance on this. But up to 12 or so miles, you're traditionally still within U.S. territory.

Starting point is 00:27:45 And so our barge doesn't really care how far it needs to go out. And then the sub-sea cables don't really care. And then the reactor is going to work no matter where it's at. So it really becomes more of a question of just like what is everyone's comfort level. From a regulatory perspective, like the actual reactor and the shielding and everything that we do is incredibly safe. And because it's small, the footprint of it is actually contained to the barge. So there isn't like a actual structural reason why we have to be pushed out. But from perception, if it makes life easier for everybody else, we're able to go further out and then just run those subsea cables back and everybody gets the benefit of that electricity.

Starting point is 00:28:20 Is the United States the right place to do this? Or are there other geographies where they might be more open to this who already embrace nuclear and need the power more? I'm thinking about islands because islands typically are getting gasoline. If you go to Hawaii, they're still shipping gasoline to Hawaii, Yon, and burning to get island. And they have a limited amount of space for solar. So you have this, you know, sort of double or triple incentive. They don't have room for solar. They're already putting in gas.

Starting point is 00:28:58 And they've got plenty of water around them. It's all coastline. So when you pick where you're going to install. the first couple of these, what's the best geography to do this? Yeah, I'd say the U.S. is the best place, right? Like the innovation, the hunger, even the like appetite right now for zero mission and and also nuclear, like it is one of the best, if not the best place that we could be doing this.

Starting point is 00:29:24 And I don't even know if it'd be possible if we had the support of a lot of what's happening in the U.S. right now. But I do, we are getting a lot of inbound and a lot of enthusiasm, also all around the world. And so we want to think about ourselves as a global company that's able to support any place that needs access to clean energy. But we're starting here in the U.S. and so far, that's been going well. Yeah. Hey, everybody. I'm here with Keith Paris. He is the founder of Lightfield. They are an AI native CRM. And it builds and it updates itself in real time based on whatever's in your email,

Starting point is 00:29:57 your calendar, your Slack, your meeting notes, you know, all the most important stuff. That keeps getting lost. Great to be here. You decided you would create a CRM based on AI. What is that? It's two things. Our CRM is freak. We don't sell software. It's a fully functioning CRM. We only charge when we do great work for you. So we just have a completely different business model than a SaaS CRM.

Starting point is 00:30:19 And then second, you know, when I think about what goes into an AI native CRM, first, it has to fill itself out, you know, automatically. It shouldn't require reps to update things. It shouldn't require manual entry, manual input. Second, you know, it should be automatic. working for you in the background. It should be finding you new accounts. It should be reaching out to folks that have gone dark for you. It should be uncovering roadmap opportunities for you, all in the background while you're outselling and building. So you're making you so I don't have to

Starting point is 00:30:51 spend my life working for my CRM. My CRM works for me. Exactly. Everybody go check out lightfield.com. What is the answer to, oh my God, this is going to be a floating Chernobyl, a floating Fukushima. I don't feel that way, obviously. But I do think we do have a lot of environmentalists. People care deeply about the ocean. And we had the BP oil spill lawn. And that was disastrous. I don't think people are logical enough. It'd be such an easy lift to say, look, here are your choices. BP oil spill. Or this barge gets caught in a tsunami. It flips over. And what happens? And how do you deal with that eventuality, Kofi? Yeah, and I think you called it right.

Starting point is 00:31:38 The status quo is inherently dangerous today. And so that's the first thing that I think, independent of, you know, where you fall on the spectrum of enthusiasm for nuclear or, like, you know, any sort of fear for it, you realize that the status quo today is not safe. It's explosive, right, for a lot of the, the, the, actual baseline of what exists. You think about the impact on the environment. Like I was mentioned with my wife being a pediatrician. We talk about this on like a daily basis. Like right now, kids do not need to be exposed to the type of air that's happening. And so that is the status quo.

Starting point is 00:32:20 When you then start to introduce. The air from natural gas you're referring to a natural gas. Exactly. People don't understand. You know, Trump loves that neck gas. We got a lot of it where, you know, drill baby drill. Putting aside, how anybody feels about global warming. Pollution is a real, it's not just noise pollution, although that is a thing that people are complaining about these data centers, but you have the extra room. So let's get right into it, Kofi. You must be doing scenario planning. There will be a storm. A barge will sink. It's just a matter of when or how something will happen. And what happens in that instance if a barge were to flip over and sink?

Starting point is 00:32:59 Yeah, absolutely. And so the people, that I was sharing earlier, right? Like status quo isn't the way that we want to continue to operate. I think universally it's understood that we need to get more energy, plus we need to find other solutions that are cleaner. Independent of what side of the aisle you're on, you kind of agree nuclear or you agree zero emission. And so that's a universal piece that we're finding right now. For our system right now, there are a couple of things that we're really proud of and why we, you know, feel very comfortable about it. One, the actually team that's pulling this together. They are nuclear scientists who have done this multiple times.

Starting point is 00:33:37 We have Navy nuclear submarine officers who have the highest standard of quality and safety. They literally will go operate reactors in like the middle of the ocean and stealth missions and keep everybody safe. And so that's the like at the core of our foundation. We are building with that. The other piece is the actual best place for these reactors. They're water cooled. And so you have an infinite amount of water around you that you can always use. Nothing comes out, but you can always have more cooling mechanisms around you. So it's actually the safest place for it. And then when you think about this from like the bottoms up, which is probably helpful for people to process, it's like, you have these like uranium pellets and they're cladded in a fuel rod that's also cladded and shielded

Starting point is 00:34:20 and a fuel assembly, which also has its protection and a reactor pressure vessel that has its protection with a dome around it that has its protection with another dome with multiple control mechanisms that all independently turn off. It's literally probably the highest bar for redundancy and safety on top of the fact that you've actually made it much smaller. And so for industrial plants, they may need hundreds, like four or five hundred fuel assemblies. For ours, you know, you might need like a handful. And so the footprint of what's actually, you know, possible in terms of proliferation is like so tiny and also contained to this like this very dense dome. So when you you're thinking about it being out in the ocean and water, right? Even the like thermal portions of it,

Starting point is 00:35:05 like even any extra heat that come from it is smaller and marginal compared to what status quo is with the traditional power trains that are already out there. And so overall, we've, you know, we feel really good about that. And you don't need to worry about this too much, Lon. You know why? Nine nuclear submarines. I just looked it up. Are at the bottom of the ocean. I think one or two have been recovered. Sure, yeah. Do you know how many had like any kind of? Any kind of of cataclysmic release. I mean, I don't think I've ever heard of that. I know there was that one Tom Cruise had to dive down into to achieve the enigma machine

Starting point is 00:35:40 or whatever. The fresher, USS Thresher sank April 10th, 1963. USS Scorpion lost in 1968, rest 460 miles southwest of the Azure's. K-27 had a little bit of leakage. K-219 went down in Bermuda. I mean, these things have had a has. happened many times, and we already have the evidence, Kofi. They don't, and these are the old ones, and they have leaked. Related, we've got a question that's come up a few times in the chat room now,

Starting point is 00:36:12 Jason Turner, fat dot, a few others. They're wondering about waste. When we think of nuclear fission, we think of like, well, is there radioactive waste? Is there radioactive waste from small modular reactors? And what happens with that when it's out at sea? Yeah. So the two things. One, exactly what you were saying, Jason, right? Like, there have already been submarines that are at the bottom of the ocean and have nothing to do with the propulsion just for other reasons they sank. And that's even what our Navy nuclear submarine officer had offered to us, right? Like, when you think about those. And those are very different levels of enrichment for fuel. So one is, like, very high levels of enrichment that we are never going to get access to from,

Starting point is 00:36:53 like, a commercial standpoint. And ours is, like, pretty much the most, like, commercially available, like low grade enrichment level. So just wildly, wildly different on that side. And then you really only have to refill these once every couple of years. And so when you're thinking about like the waste, it's so small. Plus, they're already, the NRC has already done a great job of, you know, making sure that there are clear guidelines and compliances that you need to follow. So we're not the ones needing to create that.

Starting point is 00:37:25 industrial plants do this at a massive scale already for the last 70 years. You might even be driving on the highway next to a distribution of where some things are located and not even know. And so these things are happening. Our job is not necessarily to create like new science or a new way of, you know, doing this. We actually want to be incredibly pragmatic and make sure that we fit into the guidelines that have already been able to keep us soon. And in the worst case scenario, Lonna, just looked it up. Like, when these things are in 5,000 feet deep, you're not going to recover them, right? It's just, it's too much lift.

Starting point is 00:38:03 But even the smaller ones I'm reading here, you know, this one, the Kursk, that was only in 330 feet of water, which, you know, I've scuba dive to 115 feet without any special gear. You know, that recovery costs $65 million. It's not a big deal to go recover them if they're in one of these situations. since they haven't proven to leak, there really should be no reason we're not doing this. When will you have the first one, best case scenario, realistic scenario, Kofi, in the market, and then running a startup, how do you keep your startup alive when you're in such an unpredictable, highly regulated space? Two questions.

Starting point is 00:38:46 Yeah, great question. I've been fortunate because I started my career off. I was really, I think really blessed to just be at Uber at the right time when we were doing the advanced technology group and launching Uber freight. And so I had a chance to be a part of that and then felt the same way with the aerospace company or we were building an autonomous hybrid electric aircraft, highly regulated space. And then the same previous to this with like electric ships. So I've had an opportunity to be in deep tech thinking about how do you manage capital, stay capital efficient at milestones, be pragmatic, get to market quickly.

Starting point is 00:39:20 And we're taking a lot of those learnings and applying them here. I mean, in the last like a couple months, we just started the company in January this year. We've, you know, we've been very capital efficient to get here. When I think about, you know, what is in front of us, the biggest things that I'm really excited about is that, you know, we're not necessarily needing to invent anything from scratch. There are some things that we're going to do naturally that are IP for us that we feel like are going to just improve safety and be like, you know, a net positive for economics for production. But for that reason, you know, when we go to talk to suppliers, they give us estimates and we can actually make our ideas off of those estimates. And so it's not like we have to build everything from scratch situation. And for that reason, we think we're less than a few years away from actually being able to create like meaningful electricity, like on the order of like tens of thousands of homes worth of electricity, even for the port or for any of the AI data centers that have reached out. So you're saying three to five years you might be able to stand one of these up. Department of Energy, Department of War, Trump administration, Chris Wright, they are fully on board with nuclear.

Starting point is 00:40:26 They're on board with all solutions. So what's the relationship with the government? Have they contracted you yet? And then explain, you know, what this administration's policy has been and how that's affected the space and investing in the space. Yeah, you know, we had a really special opportunity a few weeks ago to actually be over at the Department of Transportation, the Secretary of Transportation, the Secretary of Transportation. like Press Conference Room, where we had a pretty historic moment, like the Long Beach Port, the Department of Transportation, Merat as well. We were all there and kind of signed this moment where we were able to say that, you know, we want to enable commercial nuclear energy in ports. And so this is the largest port in the U.S. And I think that wouldn't be possible without the collaboration at the federal and at the local level, mixed with industry, mixed with venture capital. And also, you know, we got to give credit to a lot of, like,

Starting point is 00:41:22 from the ground up thinking about these local communities, like a lot of people have arrived at the similar conclusion that we need to have more energy and that nuclear has been one of the safest forms of being able to do that, especially when you can make it smaller. And so to my pleasant surprise, sometimes whenever I'm talking about this, you'll have, I'll have groups, even though the port will keep the doors open, we'll have people walk over. And they'll be like, I've been thinking about this. Like, I've actually, you know, there's, enthusiasm or excitement. And so I think the perceptions change.

Starting point is 00:41:51 And, you know, it's a credit to federal, local industry, venture capital groups like you all as well who are like sharing the message about nuclear and asking the right questions. And, you know, I'm trying to make myself accessible because that's the goal, right? We want to make, we want to democratize access to clean energy. And so so far it's been been training really positively. It's been great working with everybody. We talk so much about data centers in space, Jason.

Starting point is 00:42:15 So we're now talking about data centers at C. Maybe it's going to be both just like as long as we get them out of away from our cities. Kofi, thank you so much for being here and joining us. Of course. Thanks, Kofi. Wow, it's just so great, Lon. If we look at the energy issue, I think what these data centers have done is they have created a buyer. And they've created the demand side.

Starting point is 00:42:41 Right. And then you have the administration saying, hey, wait a second. we need to be independent of oil from the Middle East. We need to be energy independent. And the public is like, yeah, I don't see the public fighting against nuclear the way they once did. So something has changed here. There's a generational. If you grew up and Chernobyl happened and Three Mile Island happened, you add, or even just like the boomer, like, get under your desk in case there's nuclear,

Starting point is 00:43:14 fallout, you know what if the explosion start happening. I think if you lived through that Cold War nuclear terror stuff, it has a huge symbolic meaning for you and it's terrifying. And I think if you're alive in the last 25, 30 years, it's out that, you know, in Japan, that one thing went wrong, but I don't think it's drilled in. It's become as archetypal a thing to fear as it was when I was a kid and everybody was terrified of the world being destroyed by nuclear science. There was, you know, it's so interesting how pop culture, your wheelhouse, plays into this.

Starting point is 00:43:46 Sure. You had, you know, two nuclear bombs go off Nagasaki, Fukushima, and Hiroshima. Okay, that really impacted people. How could it not? Those people. How could that imagery not impact you, of course? And rightfully so. But then when we were growing up in the 80s, and I think this might have been right before airtime, there was this move, this TV movie, the day after tomorrow?

Starting point is 00:44:14 I know it. I'll look up the title. It was British, I believe. No, there was an American one because it was terrifying for me. I was like a 14 or 15 year old. The day after, it's 1983. So yes, I was only five years old. I wasn't allowed to watch this.

Starting point is 00:44:29 I was 12. Directly Nicholas Meyer, the guy who did Rath of Khan. What do you know? There you go. This movie was so terrifying of, you know, what would happen after a nuclear war. And I was like the last generation, I think, Gen Xers, that had our parents talking about this fear of like a nuclear Holocaust, everything blows up, the Russians, etc. And that spilled over with the No Nukes concert and the No Nukes concert, I believe,

Starting point is 00:44:59 was 78. And all these artists, Bob Dylan, et cetera, they all played. Bruce Springsteen got it together, but I'll look up who else was there. Yeah. So you had the no nukes concert, which was no nuclear power. Then you had the fear of nuclear bombs going off everywhere. And this set a 30-year, you know, I think chilling effect on the space. Now, hey, if you can have sustained energy, we're going to be sitting here, I think, in another generation, 10 to 20 years from now, the end of our lifetimes lawn, nuclear and solar and unlimited clean energy are just going to be. be there because of this specific moment in time. AI is driving the customer base. And then governments now, with the exception of, you know, like say the EU, which is a bit desal on this, you know, they shut down the nuclear reactors in Germany. Yes.

Starting point is 00:45:55 After Fukushima, yeah. Yeah. And here we are. Like, it's now obvious to everybody. This technology is safer than oil. This technology is safer than oil. Let that sink in. You know, do you want to put rigs in the ocean that drill down thousands of feet into the ocean floor?

Starting point is 00:46:15 And there's no way to close those. Right. And there are now hundreds of these oil rigs in the Gulf, and nobody is cleaning them up. They're, like, abandoned, and there's a very slow process of dismantling them. It's a real problem of this pollution of wells, and this would all be solved by solar, battery, and nuclear. Let's do it, folks. I think every form of energy has pluses and minuses if people get so caught up in the negative aspects of all of these different technologies that they forget, like, well, we do have to pick one.

Starting point is 00:46:49 At some point, we have to pick one, or we can go back to caves and living in the woods or whatever. But if we like our cities and we like our way of life, we have to figure out, you know, well, maybe despite all, you know, windmills aren't pretty looking, but maybe it's worth having them. I think we've solved this issue, and we're just in the, like, contours of the last throws of lunatics not thinking logically about it. And it, you know, if you look at this administration, I got to give them a lot of credit because, you know, in the prior couple of administrations, there was no progress on nuclear. It was just frozen.

Starting point is 00:47:28 Obama, Biden, Trump won. It just never moved past, you know, nobody had the courage to say, hey, let's explore this. Let's get this back on the table. It's a bit of a third round. I think a lot of politicians didn't want to be seen as the guy who wants to put a nuclear plant back in your town or whatever. And now you don't. Just put it a whole miles off shore. It's hard to argue with let's send them out to see.

Starting point is 00:47:51 It's like out of sight, out of mind. Great. That's perfect. We're kicking off our weight loss competition. I'll wait on that a little bit. We've got a special guest waiting. But first we'll do some rapid fire news. We got to talk about bite dance.

Starting point is 00:48:03 According to the financial times, the giant Chinese company behind TikTok and Capcut, they are training an AI model with up to 10 trillion parameters, Jason. That's three times the size of Kimmy K3, the current largest model in China record holder, and it's the same ballpark. We don't know exactly how many parameters are in Mythos 5, the Anthropic model. They have not disclosed. Most people think it's around $8 trillion. So this would be $2 trillion parameters more than Anthropics' frontier cutting-edge model.

Starting point is 00:48:36 It's currently in pre-training that takes about $3 trillion. three to six months, bite dance founder and chairman Zhang Yeming told the team working on it that they are aiming for a world leading model capability. So do you think that there is a chance bite dance genuinely takes over? This crown is the maker of the world's most popular AI model. And how do you feel about the TikTok company controlling the world's most powerful largest AI model? I think we're seeing the commodification of the models. If everybody can build a model and, uh,

Starting point is 00:49:08 all it requires is data sets distillation. And we talked about, hey, some people are selling the Chinese data sets. Including, you know, big American Merckor, surge, like some of our biggest companies, according to Forbes. There was an article in Forbes. Yeah. That, yeah, these companies that are training these sort of elite data sets based on human experts, they're selling them both to American labs and to the Chinese labs. Micro 1, our company didn't.

Starting point is 00:49:39 They came to me and said, what do you think? And I was like, ooh, I don't think the Trump administration is going to feel too great, nor will it look good to Americans that were taking American data sets and selling them to the Chinese open source community. As much as I love open source, that felt to me like, I don't want to say not patriotic, but I don't want to say traitorous. I would not say that. I would say it does feel a little not patriotic.

Starting point is 00:50:04 These data sets, it's not like military intelligence. that we're selling to the Chinese, but it's definitely scientific engineering. I mean, they're hiring STEM experts at companies like Merkor to train these models and make these data sets. I would assume. I would assume. And, you know, again, I don't want to say any of this is known for a fact, etc. These are just early reports.

Starting point is 00:50:26 So I give everybody the benefit of the doubt. And I don't think there anybody's breaking the law here. Also, it's important to say that. Sure. It's just we're in unfound territory here. So shipping a bunch of American, not. from American experts to China, that feels wrought with tension. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:42 And we didn't necessarily used to think about data that way. I mean, other than classified data or sensitive data, just like data every day, you know, numbers. We didn't think about it as a potential national security theory. But now that that's how you make a world-class AI model, I think we're refocusing on what the rules ought to be. Well, if this is, you know, that powerful, and, you know, it's basically pretty clear that China is catching up if these reports are accurate.

Starting point is 00:51:11 If this is like a zero distillization kind of model because they have so much data themselves, Biden's has a ton of data, and they're willing to open source it. In some ways, they're being better for humanity by dense in the open sourcing of this model than the close source ones in America, which was Elon's original premise in giving $50 million to Sam Wotman to do opening. was the technology is too powerful. Everybody should have access to it. The Chinese are taking that position.

Starting point is 00:51:39 Give it to everybody. Right. Put it anywhere. I mean, your computer is probably not big enough for this model, but put it on a, go to Exo Labs, get a bunch of computers put together and put it on there. I feel like we are now crossing into an area of pace that no one human can keep the innovation in their brain at a time.

Starting point is 00:52:03 Every day these new models are one-upping each other in the crimes that their models to create. It's like, we got to stop keeping these models in sandboxes, folks. We get like cages, put the model in the octagon. No more. They can get out of the sandbox too easily. I think that's what we've just. But it's almost like if you, if your model doesn't break the law, are you doing your job? Right.

Starting point is 00:52:26 Like there seem to be in a competition for being like, oh, no, you won't believe we're not going to believe it, man. They were talking for months, planning this caper. Well, and if you train the model to be resourceful and to please a human, right, which is what these models are doing, right? When you saw me ask one of the models today, hey, can I get like these 10 YouTube videos, the transcripts, can you download it for me, put it into a Google Drive, and then do analysis? And it was like, yeah, we're not allowed to do that, but, you know, that breaks the terms of service. And, you know, they're trying, literally the AI told me today.

Starting point is 00:53:02 and AI told me today that downloading these videos, they would be blocked because the YouTube knows they are a bot. And it's against the terms of service. And then I was like, but if you got this, you know, piece of software, we could actually do it because, and if you gave me your cookies and then we could spoof it, it literally presented how to break the terms of service,

Starting point is 00:53:26 how to route around all the protections YouTube has, for not letting you download a video, not let you download transcript. And by the way, would you like me to do that? Yeah, I mean, it's how they purposefully train them to please you. Like, that's how they keep you coming back. It's like the model will do anything to fulfill your request that it possibly can. But yeah, that brings with it to that.

Starting point is 00:53:47 I also found out this is also it. We can jump into this. Let's talk about it. I don't know if you heard that two of the Open AI engineers actually were at the Black Cat Security Conference in San Francisco this week. And they sort of revealed. some behind the scenes more about the open AI models that escaped and got into Hugging Face.

Starting point is 00:54:06 It turns out those models teamed up. They collaborated. They built their own message board, which they didn't tell any of the researchers or engineers about. And then they used this message board to communicate between models, and they literally like Ocean's 11 style, planned

Starting point is 00:54:23 the Hugging Face caper together for months coalescing in the background. But I also discovered, I think this is an interesting wrinkle. They purposefully gave those models a task that you couldn't complete without an internet connection. And then they put them in there and they cut them off from the internet. So in a way, the test was still could they figure out, they're Kobayashi maruing these models for some reason.

Starting point is 00:54:49 They're giving them a task they can't complete without going online. So it does seem like, well, then, yeah, of course the models tried to break into online. I think the assumption a lot of us had was that they were proactively, cheating. The reality is with open source, no matter what we do to build harnesses and constraints into these models, with open source, you can just fork it and remove them. Yeah. So cats out of the bag. Everything's going to get hacked. Act accordingly, folks. If ByteDance is about to have a Mythos 5 level model, all of our like, oh, well, maybe we should take a month and look it over. Like, that's over. Like, it's just going to be on people's

Starting point is 00:55:27 computers and there's nothing, you can't put it back in the box. It's over. And so then it's just up to each model company to say, what are we comfortable? I guess. In the same way, Reddit and 4chan, you know, and other communities said, you know what, we're okay with this level of debauchery insanity. And then remember Reddit, like it was getting like pretty dicey there with some of the communities doing really gnarly stuff. I'll leave it at that. And Reddit was like, you know, as a commercial business, we're not going to allow some of those things.

Starting point is 00:55:56 Right. And then 4chan, I believe that was like when 4chan got really popular was. The people doing the super spicy stuff on Reddit went there. And that's always been the dynamic. I mean, there used to be like dig or FARC or these very public communities where you had to sort of be respectful. And then all of us from the classic internet remember the something awful forums, which is where you could go to be nasty or spicy or post-gory things or disgusting things. You wanted to, you know, do a, you know, Taliban beheading video. Like those things got removed from some places.

Starting point is 00:56:31 There have always been places to post those kinds of things. And there's always been places that won't let you post those kinds of things. Yeah. So I think that might be an interesting analogy as to what's going to happen here. There's going to be unhinged models. You're going to run them locally. You're going to run them on your own server. You can run them on AWS.

Starting point is 00:56:50 AWS doesn't have inside your container any insight into what you're doing. And so this is, I believe, unstoppable. It's only who has access to it or the ease of access to it. Just like Napster because it was easier to just buy Spotify, Napster kind of went away.

Starting point is 00:57:13 But Napster persisted for a long time, right? Sure. And LimeWire and a lot of those other competing systems. There are still ways to steal music if you really want to. It's just easier to pay for an Apple music or a Spotify. Or go to YouTube and just watch the videos. I do want to leave this with one quote. Here's Michael Dalton, one of the Open AI researchers who was at that conference.

Starting point is 00:57:35 Frontier models really like to cheat. And the reason they like to cheat is because often during training, there's different sorts of pressure on them to work fast. So I think that's what it comes down to is we're never going to be able to stop this because we're training them to cheat. That's part of what they do to get there as quickly as they can. To cheat or to please. Or to cut corners to get you the answer you want as quickly as humanly. possible. One person's cheating is another person's resource. Right. Yeah, exactly. I think that's sort of the same way with humans in some ways. Uh, yeah. And so here we are, folks.

Starting point is 00:58:09 All right. Yeah, we got to do one more thing, Jason. We're, we're having a little weight loss challenge on the show. Okay. Thanks to, uh, row.co, shout out to them. Uh, throw, so through, what's our URL? Row.co slash twist. Uh, row dot co slash twist to get started. Absolutely. That's where you go. So thanks to our friends. That's my provider of my GLPs. They do a great job. You know, if you have insurance, if you don't. And I told people who I love and care for, hey, and some of them included people who work for me, if you want.

Starting point is 00:58:41 If you want, you have to opt into it. But if you were looking to take that journey, hey, I'll pay for it, right? I'll pay for it because I'm an employer. And, you know, listen, if it's on the insurance grade, if it's not on the insurance, whatever it is. And so two people took me up on this. payment. Right. So one of them is myself. I will be joining the row.com weight less challenge. The other is your brother and my fellow launch colleague, Jamie Callicatus. Jamie, thanks for being here. There's my older brother, Jamie. How are you? Hey, pleasure to be here. Good afternoon.

Starting point is 00:59:12 Pleasure to be here. Now, Jamie works on our sales team here. You know, all these great partners we have. He helps, you know, service all of them. But you started doing this. And, uh, I peaked at 2013. We have a certain genetic makeup in our family and a certain passion for food. Let's call it what it is. No question. You blew past me at 213, and you're here to be honest about this.

Starting point is 00:59:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you want to be slim and trim like your baby brother. I lost 40 pounds on GLP's plus at a little muscle. But you were concerned about your weight, and you did something about it. I'm very proud of you for that. Tell everybody, your progress so far.

Starting point is 00:59:56 Yeah, started, I guess three months, was probably up around 235, 240. I'm down to 215. Wait a second. 235, 240, you know the number. Let's get the exact number. What were you at?

Starting point is 01:00:09 Like 237 was sort of my... That's the peak. I think that was the peak. I'm 5.8 and a half on a good day. You're taller than me. You're a year and a half older than me. A little better looking. It's okay, sure enough.

Starting point is 01:00:21 Smarter. Nicer to get along with. you're 511 5.10. No, just 510. So that's 237 at 510. What is the ideal weight according to Jacob, look it up or somebody to look it up? A 510 male should be what weight range, I guess, is the question. Because I want to understand exactly how far over the bogey. I'm guessing 185 is probably, I think, 175. For an adult male who's five feet, 10, inches tall a healthy and normal rate ranges between 132 and 173 pounds. 132 is ridiculous.

Starting point is 01:01:00 I mean, that's if you're a small. 170 lean. That's not going to up. That's your lead. 173, which is my current way is 171 172. I was as low as 167. But again, a little bit of muscle backs. I'm proud of that.

Starting point is 01:01:13 But do you have a target you want to hit? What would make you like be really proud of yourself two years from now or something? where you feel like, hey, this is great. Well, listen, just breaking 200, you know, I wouldn't have thought was approachable. But, yeah, if I could hit 190, 1805. So 185 is the ultimate goal. You started at 237. Three months ago, you started with Rodecoe, and you did the pill.

Starting point is 01:01:43 There's a pill version. Yeah. Because you, when I talked to you, had a heart to heart with you. Like, I'm not so sure about the needles. True. Yeah. Yeah. Not a fan of needles.

Starting point is 01:01:52 Even though it's the little micro-thin needle. And, Lon, are you in the same boat? It's true. Yeah, I didn't want to give myself the injections every day. I just, I, that would have been, I would have given up on it. So now that there's, now that there's the Wagovi pill, that's the one I have that I'm starting. Okay. So, Lon, where are you at?

Starting point is 01:02:11 Now, you're taller than me, I think. Are you also 5'10? Yeah, I believe I'm 5.9 and a half. I'm between 59 and 510 is what they usually tell me. I am right now, as of today, I did a weigh in this morning. I'm 224 pounds right now, Jason. Now, what I would say is, I post-pandemic, I actually got that down to about 190. I was spitting into clothes a lot better.

Starting point is 01:02:33 People were giving me compliments all the time. Since moving to Austin, I have bumped it back up. There's a lot of good tacos to try around here. It's Taco Central. But when you eat tacos law, and by the way, these guys have opted into this. They're under no pressure. No, no. This is yes.

Starting point is 01:02:49 awards here. This is all... Completely optional. I did not. I have not been pressured into doing this at all. Not just everybody's here on their own free will, although I have a unique ability to give an incentive. What's your goal? Where do you want to get you? You similar to Jamie? 185, feel good to you? You told us to go for sort of three tiers. So I think, tier one, I'd love to drop about 20 pounds that'd get me down to 205, pretty close to 200. 20, minus 20. Then tier two, minus another 15 that would get me down to 190. That's about as lean as I've been in over a decade, I would say.

Starting point is 01:03:24 At least 10.15 years. And then the stretch goal on the third one? And then the third one, if I could get down to 175, that puts me in the healthy range for a man of my height. And that would be, like, I think probably as thin as I've been since college. So, Jamie, 237, let's just do the same thing there, minus 20, minus 15, and minus 10. Fair enough. Like, minus 20, minus 15, minus 10.

Starting point is 01:03:47 Those are three. That's that you're one. Way marks, Lon? Mine are minus 20, minus 15, minus 15 for a total of trying to lose about 50 pounds. That's, will I make it to Tier 3? I don't know. I'm setting a- Well, that's a stressful.

Starting point is 01:04:02 It's a similar for you, Jamie. A moonshot for the- Jamie, what he sent me was, so he's currently at 2.15. Oh, wait, no, let him say. Let him say it here. Jamie, you've started. Currently at 2.15. So I've lost 25.

Starting point is 01:04:16 I've lost 25 pounds in three months. How do you feel? Yeah, much better, sleeping better. My clothes are falling off. But this is it. So here's what I'm going to do for my brother and for my other brother, Lon from another mother, who I consider him a brother. I think so.

Starting point is 01:04:35 You have three targets. This is big. I'm putting up five dimes each for each level. $15,000. It's a big payday. It's a big pay day. On the table. Jamie, you hit the first one, so I'm going to ship you $5,000. Now, you can put that towards whatever you want.

Starting point is 01:04:59 Well, I was about to say, this could be, you could just do your wardrobe, or if you wanted to put it into like a 401k or a $529 or anything else, it's up to you. It's your company's going to pay for it. It's going to be entertaining here on the show. Happy to do it. It's not a big deal for me to do it. And you guys, I hope, along with me, a lot of people got inspired to try. try it. And thanks to my friends at row.com slash twist, if you want to go on your weight loss journey along with Jamie and Lon, and I'm already there. And I'm going to commit to being part of this

Starting point is 01:05:31 and trying to hit my ultimate goal, which is 165. I want to get to 165. But I want to have muscle. So, you know, it's only seven, eight pounds for me, but I'm going to join you guys in. And listen, you guys can weigh yourself in. It's a trust-based system. But Jamie, I saw you at the wedding on Saturday, and the first thing I said, whoa, wait a second. You got something to tell me here, brother? And you were like, yeah, I did it. I did it.

Starting point is 01:05:55 So, and I'm also covering any cost at a pocket that you incur at road.coast slash twist where they'll check your insurance. Did you get covered by insurance or not, Jamie? Okay. Yeah, no, our insurance plan is not. I actually think, I don't think many American insurance plans are yet covering GLP ones.

Starting point is 01:06:12 I think they'll do it if you're morbidly abused, which you two guys and I were. So we should try. actually to see if the insurance will cover it with the insurance checker there, and it's really easy to do. So, Lana, I want you to make sure you check that insurance checker there. I did see if they'll cover it. But if they don't, or if we just want to, like, cut to the chase, I'm happy to pay for it.

Starting point is 01:06:30 You know why? I want you guys to be around for a long time, and I want anybody in the audience who struggle with their weight to at least investigate this option. I'm not telling you to do anything. But I can tell you, my lord, people will call me a fat bastard for the last 10 years, 15 years. And Jamie knows I used to run marathons. How she felt was I, Jamie. And then I...

Starting point is 01:06:51 Oh, yeah. I was a marathon runner. I ran marathons. I was 165. 164, 165. I gained 35, 45 pounds. I was so ashamed of myself, I'll be honest. I'm always speaking of myself.

Starting point is 01:07:02 I was ashamed of myself. I couldn't get this under control, but I was working hard. I got the three kids. And I'll be honest. I had food noise constantly. And the food noise went away. And instead of eating five or six slices of pizza,

Starting point is 01:07:14 and now I eat one and a half. I get that. There's no change in my lifestyle. other than I don't feel bloated and weak anymore. Right. And so I have, this has been one of the great things I've done in my life, and I've kept it off. So there it is.

Starting point is 01:07:28 You can go on to like a maintenance dose down the road. Gentlemen, just want to say I'm very proud of you already for starting this or even considering it. And if you're in the audience and you want to join in on this fine. I'm not giving you $5,000. But join us on your journey anyway. Let us know. You come on the show. If anybody, yeah, anybody joins us, you come on the show.

Starting point is 01:07:50 Yeah, we'll check in if you lose a bunch of weight on row.com. Okay. Any final closing comments here for the YouTube gentlemen? You can, when you hit your goal, just come back on the show. That's it. There you go. Give us another. If Jamie hits another tier, we'll, anytime any of us hits another tier, we'll come back

Starting point is 01:08:06 and do a celebratory. Actually, if you're even like a third or a halfway to a tier, I think, you know, come on the show, do the, the row.co ad. Yeah, we'll do the check in. appreciate our partner. There you go. It's the easiest way to do it. And hey, man, the pill makes it so easy.

Starting point is 01:08:21 Phil makes it so easy. I don't mind the shot. I'm doing the shot. But you guys can do the pill. Yeah. Yeah, the pill makes it so much easier than I'm like, oh. Is it every day? Yes.

Starting point is 01:08:32 Yeah, you take it every day. The only trick is you can't eat or drink for 30 minutes. So, you know, I take it before I head out to the office. I've got a 45-minute commute. By the time I come in, I have my coffee. I think I can wait a half hour for my morning coffee. I'll be all right. I do want to share, before we go, Jason,

Starting point is 01:08:48 thanks to Fat Don in the chat room for this look, future look at my after photo. That's what's coming soon for all of you guys. Wow, you're really, you and Joe Rogan, I guess you and Joe Rogan and the whole brosphere here in Austin. So you're going to take it another level. You're going to add some muscle. Apparently, I'm there.

Starting point is 01:09:04 Jamie, too, has a go. That was Jacob. Yes, thanks to Jacob. That's a good look. Our producer for helping us out with these. Amy with the trim beard and you look a little angry. You look like you're part of like the daredevil universe. It's like the Punisher.

Starting point is 01:09:22 Can somebody make an image of James? Is the Punisher? Yeah. Jamie's trying to turn into a superhero. This is that AI Slop I hear about? I don't know if this is AI slap, but you look. It's AI, but it's not Slap. AI Slap.

Starting point is 01:09:36 A.I. Slap. It's Slaps. All right. Get out of here. Go back to work, Jamie. Go bring the register here. That's it. Let me go sell something.

Starting point is 01:09:44 All right. Go sell something. Go sales something. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. This is that the show has been sold out for 16 years. Only one time we were not sold out was during COVID.

Starting point is 01:09:54 We had five people. Three went out of business, two just delayed their head. So, you know, we work with a sold out for the year at current. This is the problem. On everybody's like, do it. Then the sales team, hey, well, can we do another episode? Oh, there is Jamie. Look and going.

Starting point is 01:10:07 Jamie, the Punisher. Not bad. Jamie going into special forces. Yeah. But, see, in that picture, he looks like he lost the muscle death. But it's okay. He's wearing the pot of your shirt, but it's not the full jacket. I don't know what Fat Dallin's putting in these prompts, but Jamie's like a very jovial guy.

Starting point is 01:10:23 These are producer Jacob. I was wrong. Oh, producer, Jay. Full credit to producer Jacob. Did you say get angry? Was the prompt to show Jamie pissed off? Wow, Lord. All right.

Starting point is 01:10:34 This is a lot of fun, guys. Thanks for doing it. I think it's a mitzvah what you're doing here for yourselves, for your loved ones who want to see you around for a while. We're all of that age, you know, getting 40s, 50s. Jamie's pushing safety. Yikes. Yikes.

Starting point is 01:10:48 Yikes. Yikes. Somebody told me I'm going to be 56 next year. It's no good. There we go. What's going on here? Oh, there he is. That's a Jamie is the punisher.

Starting point is 01:10:57 Brother Jamie. I mean, if he gets to that level, he's going to quit and join special forces. Looks like he's about to do a show at Comedy Mothership. Yes. He's about to do his set on trends. He's about to get on stage, yeah. Let me tell you about trans athletes. I mean, literally, I got to sell the guys like,

Starting point is 01:11:15 I get it. You guys milked it for a while, but every time I go to the mothership, I'm just like, how much of this set is going to be about France people? Oh, my God. It never. Let's just get off.

Starting point is 01:11:25 It's just, it's enough for it. It's saying the R word and trans people. That's every night at comedy mothership. It really is like, you just, we got to move on to new material folks. All right. Anything else here we're going off duty or anything?

Starting point is 01:11:37 We can go off duty. I did want to talk about, I don't know if you saw, there is this Chris Pattinson, or Robert Pattinson movie coming out. Oh, I know, R-Pat. Prime Time where he plays Chris Hansen. I don't know if you saw it's about the making of to catch a predator

Starting point is 01:11:53 and the sort of rise and fall of that show. 824 is putting it out. Lance Oppenheim did the direct it. It looks really good. But I wanted to point people while we're waiting for that movie, which comes out this fall, which I'm really excited about. This is the movie with R-Pats coming out. But I was going to point people there is a great documentary

Starting point is 01:12:13 that's on Paramount Plus, right now. It was actually made by MTV films called Predators that is also about the behind the scenes of the making of To Catch a Predator and the legacy of To Catch a Predator, which is so fascinating. Because like, you know, Jason, if you go on TikTok today, if you go on YouTube today, you will see people doing like, we're here, we've lured a pedophile, they think they're going to come meet a 14-year-old, and then we're going to mob them. And, you know, it's good content. I see this. It's like these streamers are so desperate for attention that it's i think we have to reassess as a society because the truman show we blew past that yeah right we're on the other side we're we've all made ourselves

Starting point is 01:12:56 between the equivocular and this yeah it's crazy well it's interesting the truman show the idea was you'd have to trick somebody like we we we've captured this baby and put him inside this experiment and he has no idea his world is fake but the way it worked out is we all put ourselves we all decided we wanted to be in the Truman show and we all turn the camera on ourselves which i think even that movie didn't really see coming which is fascinating and like we're doing our ads to ourselves in the phone all day like they thought it was going to have to be a trick but yeah i i think this idea that well if you're if you're catching pedophiles you're doing a public service and so anything else that you do in the course of making your content is okay because well the target is the worst kind of

Starting point is 01:13:39 person imaginable. And that's what... Yeah, nobody has any sympathy for a predator, but I... And if you say, hey, you should... That this ends badly. Right. And if you say, hey, you shouldn't do that. People are like, oh, what, you support, you support pedophiles.

Starting point is 01:13:53 Like, you're in favor of pedophiles. So I think that's a lot of what the documentary may be more so. I think the movie is more about... What's the name of the doc? It's called Predators. It's on Paramount Plus right now, but you can rent it, you know, anywhere you would rent things on VOD. Really, really... Is that about...

Starting point is 01:14:09 all of the people who are doing these things? Yes. It sort of opens with Chris Hanson and to catch a predator. And then the whole second half of the documentary is, here's the cultural impact of to catch a predator. And it looks at, yeah, the guys like Vitale and all of these creators who have sort of picked up the mantle of what Chris Hansen was doing and are now doing it themselves.

Starting point is 01:14:30 And, of course, cutting corners and catching people who aren't maybe pedophiles or like, you know, and then using violence and all sorts of other. things that they're using. This is not a good idea because if people even look at to catch a predator, which was, I believe, done with the support of local law enforcement. Yes. And it was, the law enforcement would always be there. I mean, it was being produced by a TV network. There was some vetting of like, as risky as this is, let's do it right. Correct. Spoiler alert. One of these people, like, ran, went back to their house and and then killed themselves and got into a standoff with the police.

Starting point is 01:15:12 So this is fraught with danger for everybody involved. But the cops could get killed. You could get killed. This is not something to be done for clout or views. I don't know how any of these platforms allow it in their terms of service. The same thing that makes it great content, great television, the drama, the excitement, the uncertainty. It's also what makes it inherently dangerous. Like, it's the same, it's two sides of the same thing.

Starting point is 01:15:39 it's like, you know, like fear factor. People used to complain like, are those things safe or whatever? Like, that's what makes it exciting. That's why people want to watch it. Maybe something's going to go wrong and this person is going to get stung by scorpions. And I think it's the same. It's the same thing. Yeah, but you don't die from a scorpion and you got people there to like, you know, give you venom

Starting point is 01:15:56 or whatever. Right. I will say like this reminds me of Alex Honnold as well. And I really had a problem with the Netflix. The free solo. The free solo guy, Alex Honnold. Yeah. I wasn't, I wasn't in favor.

Starting point is 01:16:08 I mean, listen. And I understand he's got to secure the bag. This is his... You mean the thing where he was climbing that tower in Taipei recently? Yeah, I just thought, like, where are we at folks here? This is turning into the running man before our eyes. Running man was a, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Sure.

Starting point is 01:16:24 It's a Stephen King story, and then they made it into that Schwarzenegger movie, and then they made one last year with Glenn Powell. It was okay. It's a horror to think that people are doing very dangerous things to get ratings and money. and you know yeah i i know this is alex honnold's argument is like people do ufc fighting so this is a lot safer than ufc fighting this was his got a good argument he was doing this before he was famous for that movie made him famous for it but he was yeah he was he was doing it for love of the game not to be famous that's what alex honald i think would say that he'd still be doing this even

Starting point is 01:17:01 if a bit of a pass um in this whole thing i don't give the vitalities of the world you should not Nobody should give Vitale a pass. Let me tell you. All right. Great episode, everybody. Fun show, fun show. You went, good turnaround. You started a little grumpy and then we got it all worked back.

Starting point is 01:17:17 Was a little overweight. Did you get enough sleep? Maybe the GLP's are going to put you in a better mood. You think so? Maybe. Are they mood in Hansen? I got to tell you, when you get rid of the food noise, you all of a sudden open up a lot of time. That was the other really big unlock for me.

Starting point is 01:17:33 I didn't realize how much time I was thinking about food. snacking. And the time it took me to eat, when I started eating much lighter, I've recouped so much time, like an hour or two a day. Wow. Came back.

Starting point is 01:17:48 Well, think about it. If you're snacking, you know, for 15 minutes, four times a day, which I was, that's an hour. If I was skipping a meal or just eating something light like a yogurt, that recaptured another half hour. And then like this constant noise,

Starting point is 01:18:03 oh, is there food? Is something in the kitchen? Yeah, yeah. Or all that distraction. It's distracting. That's right. But I think you get back 90 minutes a day. That sounds exciting.

Starting point is 01:18:13 All right, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

This Week in Startups - How AI splits startups into winners and losers | E2322

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