This Week in Startups - MetaKovan on financing digital art & buying Beeple’s $69M NFT, plus Clubhouse facing new competition in social audio | E1200

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

Check out Metapurse: https://metapurse.fund FOLLOW MetaKovan: https://twitter.com/metakovan FOLLOW Jason: https://linktr.ee/calacanis

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with their industry leading easy-to-use platform. Sign up today at funderize.com slash twist. That's F-U-N-D-R-I-S-E dot com slash twist. Hey, everybody got an awesome show for you today. Today I am bringing you an interview I did at inside.com's NFT event where I interviewed Meta-Covin, a crypto investor who made waves back in March when he purchased an NFT, a non-fundable token, essentially like a digital asset, like a gift. essentially that is stored on the blockchain and there's only one of one for $69 million.

Let that sink in. It was one of people's first 5,000 days. If you don't know who people is, people would release a piece of art every day. And then he took those 5,000 pieces over 10 years worth of work. And he put them into one piece of art. And so we had a great discussion about why on earth would anybody pay 69 million, million, not $1,000, not $6.9 million, $69 million on that. In other words, like a couple of jets and a couple of houses around the world for something

that could be deleted off of a thumb drive. Pretty crazy times we're living in. But we had a great chat, and I actually believe in NFT. So it was, although I don't believe in buying them at that price. And I'm doing some other events at inside.com, including a podcasting event and Meet Our Fund. Meet Our Fund is a new concept I came up with that we'll be doing on June 8th and 9th where 50 venture firms pitch 10,000 founders, including you because you're invited for free as my guest. You know how we do it here. So go to meet our fund.com and apply if you're a founder. If you're not a

founder, if you're a lawyer or a sales exec, looking for customers at this virtual event, you can buy a ticket. But founders always free. But before we get into the interview, I just thought I'd give you a quick update on what's happening in the news. Casual audio like Clubhouse, which was just pinned at a billion dollar valuation. We'll get into that in a minute, has become all the rage. And we're seeing a lot of interesting players emerge in the space. I didn't see this one coming, but Reddit has launched a casual audio product, which basically looks like Clubhouse, but uses the design of Reddit. And think about that. Every Reddit, every subreddit, I should say, and subreddit's

on Reddit are basically like message boards, whether it's about dire straits or Led Zeppelin or the Sopranos TV show or making pizza or baking at home, whatever hobby or topic, is now going to have a casual audio space associated with it, which is pretty epic. And that is an amazing turn of events. And then at the same time, Mark Zuckerberg today announced that Facebook is joining the social audio game. And he did that on a discord discussion with Casey Newton, the journalist who left, I don't know if it was at Vox or The New York Times.

I can't remember. but he left to do a substack and now he has a Discord server that he's doing and on that Discord server Discord is kind of like Slack but for video games if you don't know it

Discord has added a casual audio feature where you have a stage and then you have people talking and they've had video and audio in Discord for a long time and now you're seeing Discord doing this Casey left the verge

that's right so ironically Casey didn't interview Zuckerberg about his clubhouse clone on Clubhouse, they did on Discord, which is interesting in and of itself. And Zuckerberg basically likened casual audio to features like the news feed and stories, in other words, basically giving himself a little cover for stealing the idea. Like Twitter has stolen the idea and Reddit, everybody's running with this idea. And here is

Zuckerberg talking to Casey Newton. The third area, I think, is more around, you know, live audio, like the type of stuff that we're doing. And I think that's been a really interesting trend that, you know, I think every once in a while a new, you know, like a new medium comes along that can be adapted to a lot of different areas, right? So I think feeds were kind of like this initially where, you know, we, you know, built news feed in 2006, but then since then, almost every social product has some sort of feed. But it's like a feed isn't one thing. It's a format that basically takes the shape and feel of the context that it's in. So, you know, your feed on Pinterest or LinkedIn is going to feel a lot different from your feed on Facebook,

for example. And we've seen that a bit with stories too. And I think that's certainly going to be true with these kind of live rooms. You know, I think the areas where I'm most excited about it on Facebook are basically in the large number of communities and groups that exist. I think that you already have these communities that are organized around interests and allowing people to come together and have rooms where they can talk is, I think it would be a very useful thing. Okay, so this is really interesting.

Zuckerberg, not very well spoken, but basically kind of lied there. The feed, I think Twitter and friend feed get a little bit more credit for a feed and also the RSS readers, not Zuckerberg himself and Facebook. But put that aside, obviously everybody has a few. feed and they're going to put it in groups. Groups has been a big focus for Facebook. And just like they incorporate stories into everything and LinkedIn incorporates stories, everybody's going to have this audio feature.

But at the same time this is going on, I think Clubhouse burnout has happened. And I think what people are realizing is that being entertaining and compelling in audio is hard. I know this. I've done 1,200 episodes of this podcast and before that I did radio. It's kind of hard to be entertaining. It's kind of hard to keep people's imagination.

it's really hard to produce high quality audio on a regular basis. And, you know, to keep people entertained, there's a reason why Howard Stern got paid, you know, nine figures every five years to do his radio show. It's because it's hard. It's hard work. And you have to have a certain amount of talent for it. And we have seen a drop off like you would not believe at Clubhouse.

If you open Clubhouse up now, it's a ghost town. And it's a lot of weird rooms. And actually, there were a lot of weird anti-Semitic rooms the last couple of days, which isn't Clubhouse's fault. I mean, they'll police them as best they can, but if you have people talking at a bar or a cafe or in dinner parties, they're going to talk about things. And some people are racist. Some people are anti-Semitic. Some people are stupid.

You're going to have stupid conversations, enlightened conversations. And even, yes, anti-Semitic and racist conversations. Putting that aside, it's a separate issue. And I actually don't think it's Clubhouse's fault. It'd be their fault if they let people do those all the time. But, I mean, think about that. If somebody is, you know, got really sharp elbows and, and, you know, you know, got really sharp elbows and, and really gnarly opinions about things.

And, you know, they're saying them in a room. It's going to be hard to police. They're going to have to start recording rooms, and it's going to be difficult, I think, on a moderation basis, as opposed to text, which you can just scan. I suppose Clubhouse will start transcribing things and looking for people saying certain words and maybe locking their accounts based on that.

But, boy, it's hard to be in social now today because so many people are now on these platforms. But Clubhouse's downloads from February, March, and April of this year has been a stunning decline. Now, of course, installs only happen once, generally speaking. So as a product gets more popular, the install base is installed, and therefore they don't have to install it. But February, 9.6 million, March, 2.6 million in April to date, 643. So they'll probably double that, be at 1.2. But it's basically going down dramatically, according to this tweet, we just found

sensor tower, I guess, is the, or the people who are monitoring this. And it's also invite only still. So when they finally open up, it could pop. But back in February, I think they said they had 10 million users. And they just raised at 4 billion. And this is where it gets really crazy. The same venture capital firm did Clubhouse at 100 million, 1 billion, and 4 billion in 14 months. Why is that important? Well, here's the thing. When you are, an investor, you do, let's say, the seed round or the Series A. In this case, the Series A was five times bigger, six times bigger than the average Series A today. The average Series A today, 15 to 30 million. They did 100 million plus. And there was also this weird thing where the founder

sold some shares. Put that aside for a moment. Then a couple of months later, boom, a billion dollar valuation, 10 times the value. Then four months later, boom, a $4 billion valuation. So why would a product in decline and get a $4 billion valuation, well, normally that company would have to go and get a lead investor and have them price the round. In other words, put a value on the business. The business makes no money. It only loses money. It stopped growing fast, or it's declining in terms of the velocity in which it's growing. And it's got massive competition from Facebook, LinkedIn, Reddit, Discord. Slack said they're coming out with one. Twitter. I mean, it is bonkers how many people are now competing with this product. Spotify also announced that they're

going to do something. So this is going to go down in the history of books as perhaps the most bubble insane bet in the history of venture capital. If this company becomes and sells for anything less than 10 billion, or anything less than 4 billion, I'll be honest, it's going to look really bad for Andreessen Horowitz. Now, why would they do this? It's likely that somebody offered to buy for a couple of billion dollars. Why would they do that? Well, sometimes you hit magic and somebody defines the format in a big trillion dollar company or a 500 billion dollar company. It's only 1% of their net worth. So who cares? And reportedly Twitter did hold discussions to give four billion dollars to take over Clubhouse. So what does an investor do if they want the company to go long?

They offer them the same price as the acquisition. So now you got the internal venture capitalists who are negotiating essentially to keep that business growing because they're not in it to invest at a billion and have itself for four and four times their money. It's nice. It sounds nice to you. I'm sure if you're not a venture capitalist. When you're a venture capital,

you're trying to go for that 50x, 100x,000x, the Coinbase, Google, Apple, Tesla type return. And so apparently, Andresen Horowitz, is going for it. And for them to break the cardinal rule of letting other people price around is really suspicious and weird, if that company sells for $50 billion, my goodness, Intrace and Horowitz will look like geniuses, because who knows how much they bought, 10%, 10%, 10%, maybe they own 30% of the company now, and then it sells, oh my Lord, they're going to be just

swimming in cash. But if it doesn't work out and they invested at $4 billion as all these other companies, I mean, and we're talking about like the biggest shark in the ocean, in social is Zuckerberg. Like he just is a great white shark, a bull shark. He just rips people apart. So that is a really crazy bet to make. Now, add to that, that I believe Mark Andreessen is still on the board of Facebook.

Somebody fact checked out for me, but he was. So this is really weird. No conflict, no interest, as we say in the business. So to recap, Clubhouse isn't going to be sold anytime soon. They're going to go long. They're going to go for the five, 10-year growth. While the format is burning people, out. And everybody thought podcasters would stop podcasting, and I just thought, no, this is something

different. Casual audio is not the same as podcasting. Podcasting. You get great guests, great quality audio, video, great production values. You can't do that on an app. You can do casual fun stuff, so, you know, that's nice, but it's not the same as doing a proper interview, at least not today. Maybe the technology gets better, and it will be. But right now, they're up against Reddit. Spotify, Twitter spaces, Facebook, Microsoft, through Discord. And who knows how many startups. This has got to be a half dozen startups that I know of that are making a go of this. So I do think there'll be five winners in this.

And the five winners might be three or four existing companies and two or three, you know, independent companies. So it's an incredible space. I tried to invest in Clubhouse and I would have invested in Clubhouse probably at the billion dollar valuation as well. And in fact, I asked somebody who was involved in the company, like, is there an opportunity there? But there wasn't. And so I wound up investing in two other companies, and I'm happy with those bets.

But I would not have invested at the $4 billion. I'll be honest. Because I think this could be just a huge disaster for Andreessen Horowitz. I'll be honest. I mean, if I was an LP and Andreessen Horowitz, I would want to see what this was about. Because this seems really, really risky. This would be the equivalent of you have a good hand in poker, but not the nuts and not the second nuts or the third nuts. Maybe you got the fifth best hand, fourth best hand. And instead of folding or just

betting small, you just bet huge, bet huge, bet huge pre-flop, bet huge on the flop, bet huge on the turn. And now you're going all in. I mean, whoof, this takes guts. And so I give the Andreessen Horowitz team credit for being absolutely insane in their betting strategy. This has been done once before, by the way. WhatsApp was funded by Sequoia multiple times. Now, WhatsApp was growing like a weed. WhatsApp had a good revenue model. They were charging, I think, users a dollar a year, but they had 600 million users for something crazy like that. So they were highly profitable from what I understand. And they never went out and raised funding from other people. So I think Idrisen Harowitz copied the Sequoia Playbook. We'll see if it was.

works out for them. Okay, let's get to this interview. Equity crowdfunding and other investment platforms have been blowing up in 2021, but you know what investors really need to look out for before investing? Platforms with a proven track record that thoroughly vet their startups. You as the investor, you really want to do vetting and you really want a platform that is vetting every deal. Well, accredited investors are in luck because our crowd has already vetted over 14,000 companies and only one to two percent past their diligence process. Our crowd's professional, VC research team identifies promising companies and funds across a range of sector stages and global locations. The investment professionals at Our Crowd have already invested hundreds of millions

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For example, our sales guy Matt just invested in plenty, which is an indoor vertical farming startup, and he invested alongside Jeff Bezos and SoftBanks Vision Fund. How often do you get a chance to do that? The R Crowd account is always free at OUR. W-R-O-W-D.com slash twist. Oh, you are. CROWD.com slash twist. We're going to have a lot of questions for our next guest. I know many of you will. Meta, how are you? Good, good. How are you, Jason? I am good. Let's start out with, who are you? Who are you? Who is Metacovin? The person who spent $69 million on an NFT? Who are you?

as metacomone metacone is a year old now so i've been a metaverse avatar right like and i've been very active the nfti space since 2017 right and yeah i just i think this um this life of of of of metacode is completely something that i got to experiment with and i'm just running with it But before Metakowen, I'm Vignesh, right? And I've been in the space since 2013. I built several companies. I built a Bitcoin ATM company based out of Canada. Yeah, I've done several things in the industry before.

And I'm assuming that you have an enormous net worth because you spent $70 million on an NFT. So how did you make all this money? Were you an early Bitcoiner or you got an early on Ethereum? or you sold a company? What did you do in your day job that gave you the ability to spend this much money and capture everybody's imagination? So definitely did not make money out of startups. It's quite hard.

Yeah, tell me about it. Like Coinbase is just having the exit, right? So it's not like a lot of companies in our space has had an exit yet. So most of the money I've made, like all of the money I've made is through cryptocurrency. toe, right? So I started with nothing. I started participating as a escrow agent in the Bitcoin talk forums back in 2013. So I was the middleman and then that service grew to a extent where it became kind of an exchange. And then I took that money, a little money I had and invested in Ethereum when the crowd sale came on. And then from there, like, you know, that mental model is what I live

with. So I'm not a maximalist. I look for new technology. I think it's a beautiful two things right one is this is a free market of ideas and it's it's it's free like capitalism right like it's completely unrestricted so what it allows it allows anyone to invest in high growth startups at a very early very early stage which is unique to our system because I don't think I'd be in the cap table of I'm not in the capital of coin base right so it's not it's not every day that we get access to high growth investments like that. And I did get it. So I invested in Ethereum and then on PolkaDot and last year, Flow and several other interesting

blockchains also. And you have over 1,600 Bitcoin ATMs all over the globe with bid access. Is that correct? Yeah, that's true. but, you know, like, I'm not with the company anymore. When I left the company, we had maybe around 600. So this is 2016, end of 2016. But the good part was the first year, 2014,

we put around 100-8 teams around the world, and it has scaled quite a bit since then. And so what is MetaPers Fund? This is your fund to buy NFTs or to invest in startups or some combination. It's roughly a $200 million. fund that you're investing out of? Yeah. So again, it didn't start out as a $200 million fund. I took some of the money I made through crypto and I started buying NFTs, right? Like for two reasons,

one of them had this base thesis of the virtual worlds and I looked at them as a new distribution platform where I feel like the new social media will not look like the same social media. So it's going to be different. And so I started investing in all these virtual worlds and and buying up like scores of land. So that's how that started. So that was back in 2017 and that's part of the fund now, right?

And I've also invested in all the infrastructure companies and all these NFT related companies, not in DAPA Labs, but in flow, right? Like I kind of have this tendency to trust the tokens more than the underlying company itself personally

because liquidity is staying in. You trust the token more than the company I, as an investor in startups, was insistent when a number of my startups asked to do ICOs that my investment remained in the company and that if I wanted to buy some tokens, I would do that. But I took the opposite approach. So who's going to turn out to be right in this one, do you think? So it depends, right? Like, not every company is going to have a successful token, definitely.

But I have very few investments, but all of them are, you know, like well thought of and high impact to an extent. There are a few that didn't work out. But for me personally, I move myself into Singapore. I have no capital gains. That means that, you know, I can roll over my money. So like accumulation is very different here, right? So I get to do a 10x and then take the money to do it another 10x.

I don't think that's the same across the world. No, you would have to pay capital gains and you would have to pay short-term capital gains, in fact. So in Singapore, you can just move in and out of crypto. currencies all day long and flip them without having the tax event, correct? Not if you are, you know, actively trading. Actively trading then becomes a business, you know, and you're treated like that's your business and you have to pay income on that. But, you know, I never trade, right?

I move from investments to an investment. Got it. So wait, you're saying you never sell your digital assets or you use one digital asset to buy the other? Yeah, that's right. So I have no fiat. I don't live on fiat at all. So I just moved from, say, this route, right?

Like I moved from Ethereum to Polka dot to flow. And there was not much happening there. And so you have no fiat. What do you do when you go to dinner or you have to pay your rent by a house? I do have a personal bank account in Singapore. Nowadays, it's a little more easy to get the account. Last two years was a little hard, I should tell you. But, you know, and there are also these crypto cards, right, like crypto.com and 10x and various stuff.

So I've been swiping that away. So it's not been hard. When you made this investment in People's piece, I think it was an auction. You paid twice as much as the previous highest bid. Is that correct? No, no. Like, Christie has a very interesting bidding system. So you cannot bid whatever you want, right?

Like it's 250K more than the previous bidder. That's it. Oh, okay. So do you know who you were bidding against? Were there many people at the end? Or was it just you versus one other person? And who was that person? I don't know him personally.

And I didn't know at the time of the bid. But, you know, I found that it was Justin's son through Christie's and also his Twitter. Got it. And so why was it so important for you to own this piece? I think it's a very much. important piece in NFT history. So if you look at my collection, person collection, I've been collecting very important pieces that marked the change of medium and the importance of medium as NFTs have come through like starting 2017, right? So I've had these collection of

programmable art, the first official collectibles like from F1 to this specific piece that that I felt like was signaling to the world, the traditional world that NFTs are here and NFTs are here to stay. That is a lot of things going on, right? And people think about a lot of analogies all the time when we think about something new. And every analogy is a little wrong, right? And that's what gives this a lot of value because it's, you know, there is so much to talk about it.

Yeah. And like frankly speaking, I had, like I felt like a hat. to do it. And it had a lot of value going forward for a lot of reasons. Hey, everybody. I thought I would have Christina Casiofo on this week in startups to tell you about Vanta. Vanta, of course, has been sponsoring the pod and had a great reaction. And we're going to talk today just a little bit about what SOC2 compliance is and why it's so important for SaaS products. Welcome to the pod. Christina. Thank you so much for having me. What are the things that these big companies are looking out for most when they are looking at your SOC2? Is it two-factor authentication?

is it encryption? What are the details here? I'm just curious. Yeah, it's a good question. So there are details like encryption or people really like to see. Like if you get any one-off security questions, you can imagine. Those are great items for your SOC2. I think at a higher level, often they're just looking for, they use a SOC2 as a sign of organizational

maturity. So is your startup kind of like still a few people on a couch and a little untrustworthy or are you mature enough to work with an auditor to get one of these reports? And so overall, they're just looking for a bit of, you know, you've crossed your eyes and dot your teas, you have your things together. All right. Thanks again, Christina, for explaining to us why this is so important for SaaS companies, especially when you start getting into that sales process.

And you've been very generous. You're making a nice offer. If people go to vanta.com slash twist, where are they going to get, Christina? They're going to get $1,000 off their Vanta subscription. And we're a big fan of Twist listeners. Oh, thanks. I know you had a great response from our listenership. And they always tell you they found you here.

Thanks to our Twist Army and we'll see you all next time. Bye-bye. So you believe that this piece will be worth much more in the next 10 or 20 years? So I'm not planning to sell it. So first of all, and it's not a good starting point at creating scarcity good. You clearly are very sophisticated in how the art world works, even if you're new to it. So you're never going to sell it. But if it did go for sale, do you think it's going to appreciate you? You bought this because you think it's going to appreciate in value.

So, like, I don't think it's a bad investment, right? Like, I didn't buy it so that, like, for the appreciation. But I definitely think this is going to be, because there's a first piece in a very important change and the kind of attention it got in the world is phenomenal, right? And everything plays into it, right? So that's the thing. NFTs actually captured the art of the moment more than anything. and that's what, you know, Dapper Labs has also captured very well.

And if you look at what NFTs have a lot of values, the ones that can capture the moment and kind of become really unique. And it's very rare. So these, this people pieces has become so rare. In the sea of NFTs, you know, you are able to see it separately. And everyone almost knows about this NFT in the world today, right? So I think it's very valuable. and we are going to have like so many billion years coming out of crypto in the next decade.

Let's wait till Bitcoin hits a million dollars and yeah, a lot of people are going to want this. You think Bitcoin's going to hit a million dollars? Yeah, definitely. I'm a po-ma bull, right? Yeah. I'm assuming you still own a large amount of Bitcoin. I don't personally own Bitcoin. What?

Yeah, I'm on. Like I'm inside the industry, right? Like for someone outside of this, I'll be like, yeah, own Bitcoin. I believe in Bitcoin, but I get to take a lot more risk. So if Bitcoin is true Xing, I'd want to be in something that's 10xing. Got it. So you think the appreciation of Bitcoin is going to be slower going forward than other opportunities you have in front of you? Definitely.

As the number gets, like people have the psychology. Like as the number gets bigger, maybe, you know, people tend to invest in other things. So tell me, do you think that there is. is an opportunity for Bitcoin to be replaced by a better technology. Because if you were to say this to somebody who is a Bitcoin maximalist, they would freak out and just absolutely lose their mind. But in every other aspect of technology, we see technology being replaced by the next thing.

It's very rare that a technology or any standard stays forever. I mean, we do have some examples of ones that have been around for a while, like the open web or email, these are standards that have last, lasted decades, but typically speaking, things get replaced with something better. So what do you think the chances are Bitcoin gets replaced with something that's much better? And what would that look like in your mind? I feel like there's very low probability that Bitcoin gets replaced, not because it's superior technology again, right?

Like it's a single-celled organism, and that's where we started. But what we should understand is blockchain is not over the tech, it's over the narrative and the story. So the blockchain is you have to analyze and understand blockchain. It's very political and and a more of a, you know, like you have to do a religious study about it than an economical study or a technological study about it. So Bitcoin winning and Bitcoin staying the top currency is for the good of everyone because if we can break Bitcoin, that means that everything else can be broken too. And that means the base of this whole movement is always shaky.

So it's in the best interest of everyone in the Bitcoin or not to make sure that, you know, Bitcoin wins. So it's like that. So even for me, even if I'm directly not invested in Bitcoin, I'm always, you know, talking about Bitcoin and making sure that people like enjoy Bitcoin. And from there they take the other risks. Because my point is you cannot talk about the other crypto story. origin story without talking about Bitcoin.

And that gives it the value. So it, even if there's a better technological solution, something that operates much more efficiently or provides other benefits that Bitcoin doesn't and Bitcoin doesn't adopt those features quick enough, you still believe that everybody should support Bitcoin because if Bitcoin did collapse or get replaced, it would cause a contagion within the crypto and people will lose faith in the crypto industry. Yeah, that's correct. So you're describing basically like a cult or religion.

And you kind of use the term religion, right? You believe Bitcoin is a religion more than a technology? That's why I started a little before I was saying, there are so many analogies we can go by, and every analogy is a little wrong. Yes. That's one example. But the most right one for you for Bitcoin is religion.

Definitely, definitely. So religion first, technology. second and maybe utility. Maybe third. Like technology in case of Bitcoin is maybe third, it'll be economics, right? Like on the second level, yeah. If Bitcoin were to stutter or foul, what would be the cause of that, you think? Because we did have discussions early on, hey, China's going to come out with its digital

currency. Other countries are going to have their own digital currencies. and they could, of course, regulate Bitcoin to the level that it would be not economical. They could put a tax on mining. They could put a tax on using. They could basically tax it or ban it outright. And we haven't actually seen that happen, have we? I don't think China would take that route, right?

Like, if China has to be more McAvalian, what they would do is they will let mining really flourish and then try to firewall attack the whole Bitcoin system. and probably China would like you know they are in the best situation to pull that off compared to you know trying to shutter it because that does not make a lot of sense for them but I don't believe

like a CBDC is going to stop you know like or the interest that's on Bitcoin will be like reduced because of CBDC it's very very hard but yes the countries are going to try very hard but cross cross-country relationships right now are becoming harder and harder.

And I feel like we have to understand Bitcoin from a context of governments which are not in a very good position. Right. So there are countries in the world like the U.S. where it's fine. The system is fine. Singapore, the system is fine. But it's not the same in the rest of the world. And I think that's where Bitcoin is winning, right? like it's it's it's some it works very well in a country at a time and then you know there's another

country for its use case and and this keeps going on and people have this narrative built in their head so you know it's it's just easy you can just remember it very well and you go for it so that's going to keep happening well what do you think the pieces of bitcoin that are going to be or the aspects of bitcoin that need to evolve or that new currencies are going to just do much better. So the scalability, right? Like especially the transactions and I feel like what we have today, I've been recommending, if I have to go recommend defy to someone today, right?

It's not Bitcoin, right? And I've also very reluctant to recommend Ethereum because it's like $100 a transaction. And someone who has $1,000, I really want to tell them, don't put your money in the bank. You can convert that into USDC and then probably, you know, like make 10% and maybe some more tokens which are given for free instead of buying Bitcoin.

But the thing is to do that, they have to spend a $100, $200 transaction. So I think that's very important to be solved where, you know, the transaction fees is something that's very low, like a sub-dollar. And that's when we really get the crowds in. In 2021, a truly diversified portfolio needs more than the traditional mix of stocks, bonds, and mutual funds, according to almost everybody. It should also have exposure to private real estate. You want to have real estate. I own real estate.

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Fundrise. com slash twist. Okay, let's get back to this amazing episode. What are you doing with regards to these scholarships or grants for new artists? Because when I first heard about this $70 million purchase, I thought, wow, is there not like a better use of money? And I had to think to myself, okay, what is the motivation of this person? Okay, they're a collector.

Great. but they obviously must care about the arts. And I just immediately thought, well, if you had $70 million and you gave, I don't know, 700 artists, $100,000, you could basically and had the rights to their first 100 works. Maybe that would be a better bet. And then I look in my research that the team at Inside gave me, and they do a great job with the research and great job to the team here on today's event. They told me that you're doing exactly that.

So tell us about your support of new artists. I find it fascinating. So, and I, by the way, I find you fascinating, by the way. You seem like you're a very honest assessor of crypto, and I thought you might be a little bit more of a fanatic. You seem very logical. You're a developer, or what did you do before this? So, yeah, I'm, I come, I'm, I'm definitely a coder. I've been coding since 2002, 2003.

So yeah, I don't get to code a lot these days, but yeah, I am a coder. Yeah, to go back to your question of creators and grants. So there are two kinds of grants that, you know, like I'm looking at. So one is as MetaPos, the NFD fund, we are doing exactly that, right? Like where we are going after artists and we're going after, you know, like especially things that are changing the medium a little bit. So taking NFTs and seeing that, you know, there is a unique use case to it or a unique way someone is using in the real world, we would immediately go support it, right? So there are a lot of these social causes related to art right now. And those artists are moving on to the blockchain.

So we are big on it, right? So we have a team of four at least who are picking these arts all the time. So it's not just me. So that's one thing. And the other part with the creative program itself, the grants itself, what we were thinking is we need a lot more people to educate the newcomers into the industry about, you know, like how do they understand NFTs and where do they start, right? Like it's really when we are building, we are just head down and we just talk technical all

the time, right? Like we skip a lot of things. For example, we will not even say crypto-waxes. We will just say CV. right and and we just assume people understand but the thing is it's like when we when I use the word metaverse it's a magical word right like people are like maybe the guy puts on the VR and that's how we get started they have this romantic idea about it but it's not true the metaverse is just a URL right now and anyone can actually visit it right and the metaverse can be 2D also right so

I feel like the clubhouse app is it's part of the metaverse and it's a very difficult idea I have. And so I want to create this whole system where, you know, there are creators who get supported and also content creators who are supporting these creators to kind of take their message and amplify them. What type of, when you give that $100,000 grant, what are you getting out of it? Do you get the right to buy their art? Do you get their first 10 pieces? Or is it literally a gift? No, it's a gift. It's a gift. Why would you do a a gift, why would you not have some financial upside in this? Because if you got to own their first, I don't know, 10 pieces and it got half of it,

and then you would, because you are the greatest collector now in this space, wouldn't that validate them? And then you could put them on the market again and get this sort of flywheel going. So I seem not cutthroat enough. So I feel like, you know, like I really like how you were speaking to Roham and how he was talking about, you know, like this new, you know, this new. new world and that's very true. The artists are getting a lot more empowered right now and I feel like you know trying to

trying to earn goodwill is much better and as an asset right now and and that's that's what I'm focused on. So I will stand in the queue right. Like if someone is dropping an NFT I would never break the queue. So I've told this a bunch of times and I try to bid and be part of the auction because I feel like that's that's more of the number. narrative. It creates that moment where everyone would remember it, etc. So if I just buy an NFT and put it in my wallet, you don't even know what's happening, right? Like, I have to come to

you and explain to you what just happened. So it's, it's the, there are a lot of things going on, you know, like, so it's just better to buy NFTs rather than commissioning them, except I am commissioning a few pieces, but it'll be from very different artists who are maybe not digital artist yet, and I want to pull them into this industry, I'm doing a few commissions. Yeah, that to me is the most fascinating part about this is the smart contracts and what the downstream economy might look like for these NFTs because, you know, you saw an emergence of entrepreneurship come out of Airbnb. So some people were renting a room, but then other people said, wait a second, maybe if I had 20 apartments or 20 locations, I could make a

real business out of this Etsy, eBay, right on down the line. And it feels to me like with these new artists, if they could be commissioned for 100 pieces at $1,000 each, but they got to negotiate half of the sale or two thirds of the sale. And then maybe, or maybe they get, you know, 50% of the sale and then on resale half that, 25%, next resale half that, and then a flat fee of 5% after that. It's just so many great opportunities, aren't there? Yeah, yeah. And I, I, Like, whatever you're saying here is something that can be explored, right? That's the freedom we have right now. And I think every deal is different.

And there is so much of activity happening right now. So everyone talking to us has a different deal. We have no standard deals right now, right? So we're giving away, like, we are like for each person on a, on a, like, deal by deal basis is how we are negotiating right now. and that's how it is because we don't know what's going to win as a model too, right? So let's see, let's see. Maybe in six months to a year, I think there'll be this emergence of a standard of how this relationship could be. Yeah, and that's the amazing thing about open standards, isn't it, that everybody gets to try what their view is.

I have to say, like coming into this event, I was excited or I was intrigued about NFTs. And now after speaking to, or just sitting through this and speaking to you guys and hearing all these great talks, I'm actually really excited about the potential here. What are your thoughts on the grifters and the scammers in crypto and the impact they're having on sort of making the space look bad while actually there's some great stuff emerging out of the ICO wreckage of the last three or four years? And did you participate in those crazy ICOs? I'm just curious how you look at it as a really early true believer. So, how do I say? Yeah, it is, it's the wild, wild waste, right? And you're going to have all kinds of players.

You cannot regulate away just the bad players. It's very hard, right? And if you stop someone, I'll give you an example. Once U.S. started regulating the ICOs, what has happened is that ICOs moved out of the U.S. And then only the accredited and the funds in the US could participate in these ICOs while the rest of the world could, right? Take flow, for example. Flow was not offered to the US and flow was offered, but flow was offered to the VC companies and a lot of people outside. A lot of people outside the US made money, right?

So it's a it's a double-ed swat, right? So you're also missing the good opportunities. not just the bad ones. So I feel like it's very important for people to understand the change in this phenomenon and do their own research and be very careful. Because the problem which is, you know, if you're, the world has a way to take, take the money away from a stupid person still exists. And it's very true.

Right? Stupid people lose their money quickly. Quickly. And like crypto is like walking. in a street in Somalia with cash in your pockets. So it is risky. But that's the last time I went to Somalia and I was going to the cafe, I didn't bring any cash.

I didn't bring any cash. I just did Bitcoin for everything. But yes, you want to, if you've seen the movie Blackhawked out, Somalia is not the place you want to go with a briefcase for the cash. I love your analogy. But yes, be careful. And to make small bets, 5% of your net worth or less is what I always tell people. when they're doing experimental stuff.

How much of your net worth is in crypto? Okay. So this question again is a disclaimer, right? Because I said I have no fiat. So like I am 99% invested in crypto at any point. Do you own your own home? No, no. I have no house.

I have no car. I have no physical property. So if the crypto bubble were to pop like the dot com one did and lose 90% of its value, you would literally lose 90% of your net worth. But, like, yeah, but that's okay because my burn rate is like $3,000 a month. Got it. Okay. Are you open to unsolicited feedback?

Please, please, please. I think you've done okay. And if you could spend $70 million on an NFT, I think it's okay for you to buy a really nice house. And then buy a second really nice house. Like, this is my best advice to you. Literally, 20% of your net worth. trust me, it's not going to make a difference in the end. And it's a great downside protection for you to have the best penthouse in Singapore and the best island beach retreat.

You'll get use out of them. Promise me, promise me you'll diversify just 10%. Okay. Will you diversify 10%? So here's my answer, right? Like, I'm planning to do that and I've already, you know, started working on it. But the thing is, I didn't get here because of a choice of just keeping. everything in crypto, it was not a choice. I don't come from the US. You should understand that.

I come from a country where if I had physical property and I was who I was, I might not have that physical property today. Oh, explain which country is this? I'm from India. Right. And so what you're saying is you can't, the system there is not trustworthy. Yeah. Like you think like physical property rights is not the same across the world. And that's the, that's the motivation. for me to be in crypto, right? Now I can say, okay, in Singapore, maybe it's safer. But like five years ago, three years ago, right? Like when I wanted to buy a property in India,

it was always in my head where I was thinking, because you can be targeted, right? Like, every individual is a minority. See, this is a fascinating discussion. I'm coming to it from the American perspective where I've never seen anybody have their home taken from them. In fact, if you want to build a highway here or when they were building the Net Stadium in Brooklyn,

there were people who held out and were like, I'm not giving you my house. And the government's like imminent domain. And they were like, F you, I'm going to fight it forever. And we literally have instances where people, in fact, did you ever see the movie, the Pixar movie up? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With the balloons?

Literally the premise of that is there's an old man in a house where he grew up with his sweetheart or his wife and she passed away and he just doesn't want to give up the home. And no matter how much money they give him. So we have in our hearts and sorts, souls, this idea that it's your property, you have it forever. But you come from a world where that's actually not how the world works. And it's one of the beautiful things about crypto in this moment in time is that we all get

to see a different perspective when coming to the table. To you, crypto's less risk. To me, it's more risk. It's a really fascinating moment. That's truly America, right? Like, I'm having goosebumps right now. But I've been telling this to people, crypto is that like, if I'm, America is an idea.

Crypto is just the new America. Right? Crypto is the new America. Because it's freedom. It's freedom. And open borders. And like I came from India. I didn't grow up in the US.

I didn't grow up in the West until my, until I was 16. I grew up in a small town in India. And I got the same opportunity to invest in Ethereum as a guy from San Francisco. and I'm like, wow, this is amazing, right? Yeah. And so that's how I made my money. So whatever you see today and the people's story, this whole $6,000 million story also, is very powerful because it's a story of crypto more than it being a story of just me, right? Credits to the industry and credits for the generous people who decided to share the piece of the pie.

Listen, you're a fascinating guy. Any closing comments you want to make? Sure, sure. So, like, a bit about NFTs, right? Like, a lot of people look at NFTs as, you know, like, interesting new investment asset definitely is. And, you know, there's a lot of risk involved in it. But I feel like there's more angles to it, more angles to look at NFD. So you could be a collector for a narrative for a cause.

You could also be an artist for a cause, not just, you know, like taking your digital art and putting it online. but you can really support a cost with it, right? And it's a visual medium. So NFTs are a great way to support a specific cost. You are really fond of and it's going to hold its value over time based on the community that's around it. So again, this is a huge risk. It's not like NFTs will make you money, but it's a nice way to even think about it as as a philanthropic thing, right?

Like, there are angles to it. There are angles to it. So I would urge people, especially the people who made a lot of money in crypto, I urge them to buy art, right? Like, I urge them to say, like, take a little bit of your money and maybe buy a little bit of digital art and make a gallery in the virtual world and hang them and I'll come and visit it. I love it.

And I just, I think will end. with if America was an idea, crypto is the new America. It means freedom. It means open borders and global accessibility. It means ownership of property. What a great, great discussion this has been. And really appreciate you taking the time. I know you've got a zillion other things to do,

but I can't wait to meet you in person. But here we go. Lightning round as quick as you can. If you do not own Bitcoin, what cryptocurrencies are in your portfolio? Polka dot. Okay. Anon asks, how would you recommend a young content creator start utilizing or investing in NFTs?

I think you answered that, like do things you enjoy with art, anything else? And probably be at the meetups. So there are virtual meetups, one called WIP, WIP, work in progress. Yeah. So if you search for it, yeah. It's a best place to get started and be part of the community. Love it. Veronica asked what are Medicovin's thoughts on the upcoming PAC action, P-A-K-A-K-Oction,

rather. What is the pack auction? Do you know? Yeah, like, yeah, like auction, right? Like, pack is doing a saw the bee drop. I think it's interesting. I won't observe it. I don't have a like particular opinion about it. And yeah, I don't know if I'm participating. So, so I don't want to comment on it. Cody asks where can we see experience Medicovin's collection? The best way right now is just going on OpenC. We are building up a lot of these monuments, but two things. B20. Metapurse. Fund has all the BPL collection.

So that's a monument in the Metaverse. So you have the coordinates. That's one. The other one is OpenC. You can go to OpenC and search MetaPurse, and you will see our wallet full of these digital art collection. Fantastic. That'll end our program for the day.

Medicoven, you've been absolutely fantastic for giving us so much of your time. Thank you to the inside team. Inside.com has 16 newsletters from the business newsletter, podcasting, etc. And we're doing another event called MeetRfund.com. And this is a reverse demo day. Any founder who wants to come can come for free. 10,000 founders will, it's a two-day event with two tracks.

This was our little test today. We did one track for four hours. This is the next one's two days, two tracks, and 50 different venture funds. And I think Medakovin's going to do his fund as well. I hope he'll present his fund. But how these funds work with founders and how they invest and what their value add is. And then you ask them the questions and they have a full half hour.

So imagine 50 funds, incubators, accelerators, platforms, et cetera. We'll have some crypto stuff. 50 different ones that you'll get to with your co-founders or friends. Pick which ones you want to go to. A hundred percent free. But you got to sign up now because we're going to turn off the free registrations when we hit 10,000. And then we're going to charge people like 300 bucks to come. So meet our fun.com and we'll see you all next time.

Bye bye.