This Week in Startups - Microsoft consumes Inflection and AI Demos from Suno, Cohere, Deepseek VL and more! | E1918

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

This Week in Startups is brought to you by… Eight Sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. Now you can add the Pod Cover to any mattress! Go to http://www.eightsleep.com/twist to check out the Pod Cover and get $200 off the pod plus free shipping! Squarespace. Turn your idea into a new website! Go to http://www.Squarespace.com/TWIST for a free trial. When you’re ready to launch, use offer code TWIST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Gelt. It’s time to take control over your taxes. Discover how Gelt can help you to manage and optimize both your personal and business taxes. Visit http://www.joingelt.com/twist now. * Todays show: Sunny joins Jason to dive into AI news and demos, including Microsoft absorbing Inflection AI (1:29), the new song creation model from Suno (13:28), impressive reflection skills from Deepseek VL (45:57), and more! * Timestamps: (0:00) - Sunny joins Jason (1:29) Big news as Microsoft eliminates competitor Inflection AI by gutting their team. (6:23) Is this a new way to not have regulatory scrutiny like in M&A? (8:14) Apple has been busy acquiring AI companies! (9:14) Eight Sleep - Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/twist for $200 off the Pod plus free shipping (13:28) Sunny demos the new model from Suno v3. (15:58) Surprising punk song from Suno with interesting lyrics. (17:52) Squarespace - Use offer code TWIST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain at https://Squarespace.com/twist (19:24) Implications of Suno bringing everyone access to produce their own songs. (25:24) Sunny demos Coral by Cohere. (28:53) Gelt - It’s time to take control over your taxes. Visit http://www.joingelt.com/twist  now. (30:08) Diving deeper into fair use regarding the data and content scraped from the internet. (45:57) Sunny demos Deepseek VL. * Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp * LINKS: Check out Suno v3: https://app.suno.ai/create/ Check out Coral by Cohere: https://dashboard.cohere.com/playground/chat Check out Deepseek VL: https://huggingface.co/spaces/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-VL-7B 9to5Mac article about Apple buying AI Startups: https://9to5mac.com/2024/02/08/apple-bought-ai-startups/ Tech Crunch Article about Microsoft and Inflection: https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/19/after-raising-1-3b-inflection-got-eaten-alive-by-its-biggest-investor-microsoft/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFUxPOXc4AHnjptN6dxkwFgpZ0kvPL_gTJ1uMicNRJwwtbQbuS1P0AI0MbDZzGawLNTArPSTT6VrWbByv-AyGXGWF_mkTdLG6eBSgiTrJPpqyBvY1y-GZoAE4xzQdq9v8ciP0VfQpKcSr-acjKYZEdwlc0XZV2lP6CeOb9I_QqXl Rolling Stone Article about Suno: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/suno-ai-chatgpt-for-music-1234982307/ * Follow Sunny: X: https://twitter.com/sundeep LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sundeepm * Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis * Thank you to our partners: (9:14) Eight Sleep - Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/twist for $200 off the Pod plus free shipping (17:52) Squarespace - Use offer code TWIST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain at https://Squarespace.com/twist (28:53) Gelt - It’s time to take control over your taxes. Visit http://www.joingelt.com/twist now. * Great 2023 interviews: Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland * Check out Jason’s suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis * Follow TWiST: Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups * Subscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.founder.university/podcast

Microsoft had a big announcement that they've gutted a company and stolen all their employees. Infllection. Congratulations, I guess, to the team, but maybe not the investors. Congratulations to Satya Nadella to running the table on everybody. I mean, my lord, this guy is like, getting super cutthroat. Yeah, be careful out there. Yeah. Satya will take all your employees. Satya might steal your girl.

He might steal your girl. Exactly. This week in startups is brought to you by 8Sleep. Good Sleep is the ultimate game changer. Now you can add the pod cover to any mattress. Go to 8Sleep.com slash Twist to check out the pod cover and get $200 off the pod plus free shipping. Squarespace. Turn your idea into a new website.

Go to Squarespace.com slash twist for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code twist to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And Gelt. It's time to take control over your taxes. Discover how Gelt can help you to manage and optimize both your personal and business taxes. Visit joingelt.com slash twist now.

All right, everybody. Welcome back to this week in startups. You know, we had so much news breaking in the world of AI that Sunny and I had a conversation about it. We said, you know what? We didn't do any demos this week because we had to talk about, God, so much going on. And then more news drops in that. the meantime. Yes. Microsoft had a big announcement that they've gutted a company and

stolen all their employees. Inflection. So explain just briefly. We're going to do demos today, I promise, but we do need to address what happened here. And there's a lot of feelings, I guess, or debates about it. And so maybe you can level set and tell us what. Yeah. So inflection was this creation between Greylock and a bunch of folks from the deep mind team, maybe mainly one of the co-founder's Mustafa, co-founder of Deep Mind, incredibly talented person who's built several iterations of AI. And when they came together, the promise of what they were doing, which was really awesome, and they raised a lot of money for this, was they had built a huge compute cluster. They were one of the largest purchasers of Nvidia hardware last year, and they were claiming

to create both a new chatbot and a brand new foundational model. So it was a direct, competitor to Open AI and being built from folks that, you know, come out of the same lineage, have the same experience. You know, the team had raised, I think, upwards of $1.2 or $1.3 billion to compete. And everyone was excited to see what they were building, what they were launching, would we mean more competition in the ecosystem. And then we wake up yesterday and we find out that Microsoft has recruited the team away. There's a new CEO in inflection. And, were all kind of scratching our heads. And we also learned that there was some kind of relationship

between Microsoft and inflection as well. That was the other thing that kind of came together. So I did see that they also had like some number of investors in common, including Bill Gates and some other folks. So this and then Reed Hoffman and then Reed, so LinkedIn to Microsoft and I believe Reed is still on the board of Microsoft. And so they've gutted the company. And this was Microsoft's approach as well with OpenAI.

When there was a little bit of friction there, they said, oh, you know what? We'll just take the open-eye team. So this is like a very cutthroat Microsoft approach now of, hey, we'll just steal your team if you don't sell your company to us. And here they are. They've now essentially stolen a team. And then I guess there's going to be some back-end payments. But they're giving up their chat GPT competitor. Pie. Pie. Yeah. So that's over. The dream of that front-end consumer-facing agent has been taken out of the market. so Microsoft now doesn't have that competitor for their Windows operating.

Co-pilot. So they eliminated a competitor. They took all their employees or their main employees. And they stood up a whole lead owned sub called Microsoft AI, which Mustafa is a CEO of. That's interesting. Yes. So what does that say to you? Okay.

Well, let me frame it in a way that's different at least from the way I see it and what's going on in the market. Why is this happening? I think it comes down to the following reasons. I think, one, for large enterprises, and Microsoft being, you know, the biggest one these days, AI is so important and their need for resources that can build defensible AI for their business, they're willing to do anything. Now, that stretches from hire the entire Open AI team when they had that big falling out a couple, maybe months ago, to taking a company that they're, investors in that have been funded through a well-known Silicon Valley investor and gutting it. This is how important building AI technology is to enterprises.

And I think what Microsoft is showing is that if they really want to play to win, they must own that technology. We give them credit for pseudo-owning it through the Open AI relationship, but clearly they don't own enough of it. And they sort of pseudo-owned this one through their investment relationship, but that wasn't enough. And what it really means is the basics of business, if you really want to own something,

you actually have to own it. And this is how important it is for them. They're willing to kind of, you know, not quite blow up, but do these funky things with these businesses in order to be in the market. I think that's A. I think B is these things require so much money.

And this kind of got uncovered in the Elon messages, right, between Open AI and Elon. Yes. it's almost likely impossible to build one of these things as a standalone company because if you don't have a giant machine that's generating cash, like in the case of Google and search and the case of Microsoft and their core business plus Azure, it's probably next to impossible to build out the infrastructure needed to pull this off. And so I think that's the second reason.

What if the team was like, hey, we're not happy with the 10,000 GPUs we have. we need a hundred thousand. Yes. So this is super interesting. Microsoft obviously has become the world's most valuable tech company, huge market cap now. They added to the market cap after this. And they are under obviously regulatory scrutiny,

like all of the major big tech companies, Apple and Amazon included. And what people are saying is this is a way to not have regulatory scrutiny. Just hire the team and Lena Khan, the UK, we know, we screwed up the, we'll put the kbash on the Adobe Figma deal. You know, you can just, hey, I just hired a bunch of people. It is what it is.

And so now this is what happens in a free market. If you try to overregulate a market and you get rid of M&A, well, now people have found a backdoor. I'll just hire the whole team. And that's a thing. And the outcome is probably as good as an M&A. Well, we'll see because now what you have to do is, you know, how do those investors get paid their money back? Is the company going to buy the investors?

Not for the investors. It's shitty for investors. For employees is probably even better. Yeah, who knows? But I mean, you would think in order to pull this off, they must have figured out a way to make those investors whole. And I think there's been some back channel about they're finding some way to do that. But this is putting somebody, you know, who's super qualified. And, you know, he was on the podcast.

Mustafa was on the podcast this summer. August 17th, episode 1794 when his book came out. And this is specifically he's going to report to Satya, Satya, and he's going to have Bing and their co-pilot is going to be his area. So this is super interesting. You have to wonder, like, Apple and Google are not being super aggressive. It's kind of weird. I don't know. Why isn't Apple getting more active here?

Did you see this one thing? I didn't see it, but I saw this article. It said Apple acquired 23 AI companies last year. What? Very quietly, I guess, huh? Yeah. I saw it, and I was totally surprised by it. That's a new piece of information for me.

I know they've bought some small ones. Six days ago, Apple buys Canadian AI startup, Darwin AI. So that one I know about. And there is nine to five back. Apple bought 30 plus AI startups last year. Wow, this is incredible. Let me take a look at this here. Okay, new information.

Apple is said to have bought companies at an earlier stage in their development. Apple's pursuit of AI innovation has been evident in recent years. The Tech Giant has made a series of strategic acquisitions, including staff hires from AI startups to bolster its AI capabilities across various product lines. Apple purchased up to 32 AI startups by 2023, the highest number among Tech Giants and the overall AI startup acquisition. Hmm. When did you get a list of these companies?

It says by 2023, not in 2020, 23. Yeah, exactly. Ah, okay, that makes much more sense. Elite performers have a secret, and it helps them stand out in their field. want to know what that secret is. I can tell you it's sleep, whether you're an athlete, an entrepreneur, or are you just a career-driven professional like the people who listen to this podcast? Quality sleep is the fuel that powers your success. Well, how do you get deep, restful sleep? Very simple. You do what I do. Eight sleep. I got two eight-sleep mattresses. I

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This may have been over a very long period of time. According to Stock Lidick, Apple purchased up to 32 companies, okay. Back in 2020, Apple purchase Voices, B-O-Y-S-I-S-N-A-S-N-A-Sys and AI start-involved to making digital voice assistance and nationally aid in comprehending natural language. They did that to improve

CERI, ostensibly. They also acquired Wave 1 in March of 20203, whose technology is helpful in ample video compression. That doesn't seem like AI. Hmm. They bought Drive. and AI and AI. com. They are known for making

what they call tuck in acquisitions at Apple. So some team of 20 people figures out like a technology gets some patents. They're just like a really good SWAT team but they don't have a public facing product

or if they do, they shut that down immediately, get rid of the website, scrub as much information as possible. They did this with an acquisition of a company called SWEL, which was a podcast player. And that team became...

They were a customer of ours at XTRA months. Yeah. It's an awesome podcasting. We doubled our money. I was like, please don't sell. Keep going. It's going to be great.

And I think the reason why Apple's podcast player got a lot better and they took them more serious, it was because of that application. But they immediately killed Swell. And Swell had this really great interface. It was tile cards. So you'd swipe the tile cards. I guess you were involved in building it. Maybe you did the Android after them.

But what was interesting is they would drop you off, you know, into a moment of the podcast. So if they knew you were into Apple, they might skip the first part when we're talking about Microsoft, then just drop you into that Apple. And that was their kind of idea was like TikTok-ish understanding what you like about podcasts and then drop you off at the moment in time that you would like. That's a pretty interesting idea. Yeah, way early on.

I was actually, I was an investor in a company called Locationary that they bought to clean up Apple Maps. Okay, here we go. Apple is looking to add more acquisitions even as a plans to bring on board, brighter.a. Germany may start up to improve its new headset, the Applevision Pro. Hmm. So let's get to demos.

A lot of demos. Hey, congratulations, I guess, to the team, but maybe not the investors. Congratulations to Satya Nadella to running the table on everybody. I mean, my lord, this guy is like, yeah. I mean, this is people where Microsoft is cutthroat back in the day. It's, this is getting super cutthroat. Yeah, be careful out there. Careful out there, folks.

Yeah. Yeah. Satya will take all your employees. Satya might steal you your girl. He might start. your girl, exactly. Be careful. Don't leave your girl on the death floor. Sonti comes right up. We insert an AI video inside the end up selling somebody's girlfriend on the dance floor. Oh my God, it's so funny. All right, let's do our demos. Come on. Okay, first one, we're going to,

we're going to rock and roll here today. So Suno is back. And what I would say is they have a brand new model, B3, and what they've done is, so I don't know if you remember this one. This is where you give it a description. Yes, I remember this. Yeah. And so they have a new model. That's why we're bringing them back here. Okay. What I was going to say is I did some ones beforehand, but these were kind of the default. Give me a little description, J-Cal.

We'll do one live here. A rock song in the style of dire straits. Oh, my God. Okay, so I know what's going to happen about the kind of the style of. Oh, because I'm saying dire straits? Yeah, yeah. I want you to see what they're doing. Okay.

That's it. Rock song in the style of Dyer. Yeah. So if I do that, what you're going to see is right down here almost immediately. It's going to kick an air. back basically saying could not generate that song description contains artist dire straits. Ah, okay. So let's take out dire straits.

Yeah. Yeah, they're being respectful of this. But it kind of kills exactly what we all want to hear here. So what we would say here, a rock song in the progressive rock style with finger picking electric guitar about a rock band playing in a dive bar. I'm kind of alluding to Sultans of Swing here. Yeah. Yeah. So it's so funny, J-Cal. This is what this song up here was. While that's coming up, I did it and I basically had like Chat TPT explained to me what the style of Dire Straits was.

I mean, you can see how much fun this is going to be. I mean, literally, this is going to be so much fun when they figure it out. This is your one. Okay. That is literally, it doesn't sound like Mark, exactly like Mark Knopfler, but it is definitely like a bluesy, it's more John. Mayer who is influenced by dire straits, but it's similar to dire straits. I mean, they understand electric guitar, progressive rock. They understand soulful. They understand finger-picking. Wow. Wow. I mean, it's actually starting to sound like dire straits there. That is really impressive. That's super impressive. I mean, so let me hear the one you did. Oh, mine was not as good. So, uh, because I, you're much better at describing songs than I am. I got it. Let me do another one. I'll never sleep

I walk Yeah, that's melodic. You got melodic. Let's do another one. Let's do one that is progressive punk rock about breaking the law and getting caught by the cops.

And so this is, I fought the law and the law one by the clash. Progressive rock, punk rock about breaking the law and getting caught by the cops. I thought the law and the law one. I thought you're going to go for West End Girls

for a second by the Pet Shop Boys. I mean, that would be more of Skydains playlist. Not exactly money. He's into those emo. Pet Shop, boy. Okay, here we go. Pretty fast-paced punk rock.

Okay, that's kind of... Ready? No. Didn't do a good job. I don't, no, no. Hold on. Play it again. Let me see something here.

It's got the drums. Okay. Whoa. Did you say F the police? Yeah, right here. They just said F, the police? Giving the finger to law enforcement? F, the police?

Oh, my God. I mean, that's a little hardcore. Yeah. You know, maybe because I put progressive punk rock in there, but it went for fast-paced punk rock. I just wanted people to understand here who are not watching. They should go to YouTube and type in This Week in Startups and subscribe and hit the bell and watch us do these. Because it's giving you in under a minute a musical track with lyrics that are somewhat synced to it. Yes.

And if you were to play this to me, I would say that is the, what do they call the tapes when somebody would give their audition to the devil? This sounds like a demo tape. Like, it's bad, but it's a demo tape, right? It feels like it could be good if they were more produced. Like, if you gave this to a professional producer, they might be able to make something out of it. Yeah. I give this an A. This is A for awesome.

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this blueprint AI that you got to see to believe. Squarespace.com slash twist. Squarespace.com What's really interesting here is this is, it's not a proof of concept anymore. These are actually demo tape quality. These are. demo tape quality. I'm going to play this one for you. This was your second I've borrowed one. Oh, okay, yeah. Oh, it's got lyrics.

More country. Yeah. Yeah. No, that one wasn't good. That one wasn't good. So what's interesting there is they put auto tune on the person. They made it into more of country. And they,

my finger picking, it didn't understand that I didn't want a song about finger picking electric guitar. I wanted the finger picking electric guitar sign. So that sounds like my, our description wasn't crisping up. It should give you, tell me about the lyrics in one box. Yes. Tell me about the guitar.

Yeah. Tell me about the drum. So I wonder if we did that. A drum style that's, you know, hard charging, an electric guitar style that's finger-picking, a vocal style that's a female vocalist. I wonder if you could even give it all those. Yeah, you can. It's, you know, kind of lets you describe it and how much detail you want to.

I mean, here we are, folks. It's pretty clear what's going to have. happen here. How this was trained is interesting because although they are not letting you put in dire straits or band names, I believe this was trained on copyrighted music. I don't know that, but I'm wondering, it does feel like, so this is going to be an interesting trick, right? We don't let you say you want to create Darth Vader or Jedi's because we know that's protected IP. You can't make Marvel characters. You can't make Dire strait songs, but we kind of trained it on Marvel in dire straits.

So if you do enough, you know, prompt engineering, you can still get that. I think that. And is this, tell everybody the URL of this so they can go try themselves. I'm just pulling up this. It's, yeah, suno.aI, right? SUNO. dot AI. Okay.

But what I want you to see here is from a commercial use aspect, you are allowed to take these songs and put them in monetization services. And so as long as you're a subscriber. And basically, if you are a paying subscriber, you own the songs you generate while subscribed. So as long as you subscribe, you own it. So what's interesting, though, is while you are subscribed. Oh, while you are subscribed.

So if you unsubscribe, they get the rights back? Yes. Oh, that's interesting. Maybe that's just a weird way of saying. If you are a paying subscriber to Suna, then you own the songs you generate while subscribed to Pro or Premiere. Subtition requirements of Sonsored. Okay.

So if you stop your subscription, that's not worded very well for the team over there. You know, interesting business model. Make a great song. Subscribe to them in one of those plans. Use it in your YouTube for audio or, you know, background music. That's pretty incredible. Yeah. I like that they're dipping their toe into the rights issue and trying to explain it.

Yeah. I would like to know the training data. Yeah. So we'll look into that and, hey, if you work at Suno, let us know. How did you train this? I'm on the show. Exactly. I'd like to have them on the show.

That'd be a great time. Come on. Great job. And I want to give it an A. I give it an A. Okay. I'm going to give them, I'm in the same spot as you. I also want to say, there's one more thing I just wanted to show that they had here,

is they kind of have this trending so you can see by the number of plays. And so I'll just play one of these for us right now. And that's something jumps at you here. Yeah, one at the top. Any one on the top one sounds good. Definitely not speed metal, but. Yeah, this one sounds cool. Kind of soon.

So electric punk? A magical world to us, the forces of evil. I mean, this is, like, I was listening to some of these. Honestly, for me, I couldn't tell if one of these songs made it into the, you know, Billboard Top 100 and whether it was a real artist or not. Yeah, I don't know if we have a bet on this, but if we do, the under is going to win. I mean, it's pretty clear that we saw that they could do Gwyneth Paltrow's voice, for example, in Speechify.

So, you know, or getting me to speak Chinese and do you and I can do this in French or Japanese or Chinese. Like, it's okay. We know we can get speaking to the point at which you really can't tell the difference, whether it's a robocall of Biden or lip syncing, you know, us speaking in another language. So, okay, checkbox there. And now it's kind of clear, like we knew lyrics would get done. That's not difficult. We know artwork for albums can get done.

So the real question was, could you actually make a melodic, interesting song? So can music and the singing voice get there? And it's pretty clear that it can. It's impressive. A's all around. A, A, A for awesome. It's going to be great. Yeah.

We got a little breaking news here. Oh, okay. Wow. Open AI faces multiple lawsuits over chat. GPT's use of books, news articles, another coppery material, and its vast corpus of training data. Soon as founders declined to reveal details of just what data they're shoveling into. their own model other than the fact that its ability to generate convincing human vocals comes in part because it's learning from recordings of speech in addition to music. Naked speech will help you learn

the characteristics of human voice that are difficult showman says from Rolling Stone. And I think our bet was that there's a top 100 song by AI. And so, you know, it's, I'm going to make a thousand of these in one. I don't win that bet. I'm going to be like the streaker. People don't know. Somebody bet, whatever, 10 to one odds. There'd be. a shrinker out to Super Bowl, so then they decided to place the bat, get butt naked, and run across the field. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do to win. And we'll put a

link to the Suno story from Rolling Stone by Brian Hyatt in the show notes. So you can read that directly. Thank you to Rolling Stone for asking that hard question. Let's keep going here. Let's keep going. This is a good area. I think you're going to like this one a lot. Go here.

So we haven't really talked about them a lot. They are one of the foundational model providers. And they released a new model called Command R. Command R, which is, I believe, to refresh the pay. That's usually, yeah, it is. It is. You got it right. But what Command R is, you know, claim to be focused on and really good at is Rag. Stansford Retrieval, augmented generation. Effectively, what that means is using a model to go get, not the source of truth from its training data, but to go use an external source to go get the training data.

You get the information you're looking for. So using it as like an almost like an agent. Okay. And so in this case, I've pulled up their playground. And what you can do is you can say, hey, get me a quick overview of global market for solar panels. It's just one of their built-in defaults. Yeah.

And it's going to run here. But while it does that, I'll just kind of, I did this a few minutes ago. And so what you'll see here is it went and did this search. It did this grounding search. And it put all the references, right here. Okay, so you say, can you give me a global market overview of solar panels? And then it went

to the web and it found a bunch of different articles. That's a solar panel, market size, share, etc. Okay, so it's doing a web search. Yep. And then what it did was it put this like, you know, short summary together with the links to where it got all the data from. Okay, citations, which is what we've always been asked, I've always been asking for. And some people don't. don't want to do it because I think the reason people don't want to do it, Sundee, they don't want to get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. So they'd rather pretend that they didn't take this information. This is different. Because it's searching the web. Exactly. So this is using the model as a reasoning engine to search over the web. And then it's

putting it here. So this is not coming from the models training data without it being connected to the internet saying, oh, well, I went and I went over this site. And I realized that, in 2023, the market was 165 billion. This is a distinctly different thing. And I think let's spend another minute making that clarification. What you talk about a lot is when someone takes a model and basically in the training data, they go over things. And when they regurgitate this information without a reference, that's not falling under,

I guess what you would say is fair use. I think that's how you categorize it. Yeah. And let's just even use the word fair. like put aside all legal concepts, it doesn't feel fair. That somebody did all that work and then somebody else,

you know, got the value from it. And here, when you do a citation and you take a small portion of it and you link to the source, I wouldn't mind that. If you,

I was literally talking to, somebody's got like a Twitter and Instagram handle called Startup Archive or something. And he, like every week does one of my videos. And I said, hey, listen, I'm okay with you doing it.

But would you please put at Jason and at TWA startups in your first tweet because he wasn't actually linking back to this week in startup so people had to guess who I was in the video and I'm like hey here's the conditions under which I'll let you do this put at Jason at TWA startups and in the follow-up put a link to the source and then I'll let you do this

once a week or whatever which I try to be reasonable about it if they're a fan on the show I thought that was fair are you grinding hard to grow your business I bet you are you're listening to this weekend startups of course you are but don't let your hard on profits slip away because of overpay paying on taxes, you need to check out Gel, G-E-L-T, is the secret tax weapon trusted by savvy founders and CEOs, their elite solutions will transform. How you handle your taxes? You can integrate your personal and business tax planning with one provider. They have tech-driven efficiency that

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The other thing is data and facts are not protectable. You cannot copyright data and facts. So if you were to make a website and you were to put, these are the heights of all of the NBA players in the NBA. Now, I could take that data and put it into my database. You cannot claim that those facts are copyrightable. Now, so does that you can say... Okay, interesting.

Yes, sports scores, whatever it is. There are some exceptions that where people have tried to put copyright onto it. One of them is my terms of service are that you can't scrape data. And if you do, you're breaking into my server. This was the LinkedIn case versus an Israeli company, I believe, that LinkedIn wound up losing. So, you know, scraping data off of Crunchbase or pitchbook or other places, like, if it's behind a paywall, you know, and you take that data and you've scraped it,

you know, they can make some legal claims against you. It depends on jurisdiction as well. Obviously, in Israel and some other countries, they don't stop me from doing that, but you would have to get past the paywall. And really, it just depends on if you're being fair with people. But I could go on to, for example, Crunchbase or LinkedIn, take the CEOs, name of every company in San Francisco and make a new website with that information. But if I scraped it, they might be able to make the claim, or if there's your website,

you know, San Francisco startups, you could make the claim that I invaded and I broke into your servers. And that's why they probably put them all behind logins now too, right? Because then that forces you to agree to terms of use. That's exactly why they do it. So the name of the company was High Q and LinkedIn. Yeah. So I'll just read it here really quick because I think it's, I'm super fascinated by this.

Hickew Inc. versus LinkedIn Corp case about web scraping. The Ninth Circuit affirmed the district court's preliminary injunction preventing LinkedIn from denying the plaintiff, HICU labs from accessing LinkedIn's publicly available LinkedIn profiles. Hicue is a small data analytics company that uses automated box of scrape information from public LinkedIn profiles. The court ruled that HICU had the right to do web scraping. However, the Supreme Court based on Van Buren versus United States decision, vacated decision,

and remanded the case to further review in a second ruling, they affirmed the decision and then in November 22, the users scored Northern District of California, where that IQ had breached LinkedIn's user agreement and a settlement agreement was reached between the two parties. So even though they had the right

to scrape in, they didn't have the right to break the terms of service if that makes sense, right? And so that's how that sort, and then I've said this before on this podcast and on All In, most of these things get settled, right? And so it's very hard to actually know what the law is in a lot of these cases.

And there's not like a bright line. It's always like interpretation. And the interpretation here, I think, was, hey, you can scrape and read data off the web and, you know, the data is not copyrightable. And an article might be, but not data in the article. However, you also have to, you can't break somebody's terms of service to use their service, right? Because that's an agreement you're making when you log into the website. super complicated. How does, well, I guess in this case, let me just put my share back up. In this case, we're okay because they're citing it, so we don't run into that issue. You know, even if you cite it, if you did scrape the person's website and break the terms of service, they could still say you're

broke into my servers, basically. You broke our agreement. I gave you an agreement to use my website. You agree to it, therefore you've broken it. So if these folks have a terms of service, it's possible that this is they broke the terms of service by scraping it like that so when i clicked on this right here and it took me to this this came from grandview research solar panel and they've ingested the entire thing and they're presenting it on their website that's illegal yeah they didn't just it i asked this question let's go through this workflow okay it then went and searched the internet and then it basically used um its web search connector to go through this work through through these, you know, different references.

Yeah, but see, it's got the whole entire article there. So they have republished the entire article on their website. That's the part that would be illegal and all like that. But do you consider this a republishing rate? Sure. The whole thing's there. You scrape the whole thing and publish it on their website. So you don't have to visit their website now.

They did not have the right to republish it on their website. If they put a snippet and linked back to it, that would be fine. Yeah. Okay. So on the left where it's citing like one sentence. Yes. That would be the equivalent of Google doing that one box where they just take a clip. But on the right here, they've republished it.

So if I was advising them on fair use and legal issues, I would say, hey, you know, here maybe truncated and say visit the website. Because then Grandview Research from the Web, Solar VP panels, whoever this is, Grandview Research on Solar panels, market size, they're getting no value here. You've just stolen all their value. This page, yeah, got it. So this page that you linked on. and they're trying to sell reports. You've basically sucked in the report. You've intercepted and given all the value,

essentially, in my mind, stolen the value. That would have happened if they went there. And so that's the challenge, I think, with these kind of services. Now, what somebody like Freiburg will say, or a lot of like Google, techno, you know, first people will say, well, if it's on the open web,

then you can do whatever you want. And that's just like a level of naivete or, like, techno might is right. that's just ridiculous. Just because something's available on the web, like, listen, Netflix is available on the web. That doesn't mean I can take, you know, Queen's Gambit and re-publish it, you know?

It's the whole copyright and matured. So your recommendation would have been they can look at this entire page, which is this is the page they looked at. This is the whole page. Yeah. They can go and extract this 165 billion to 355 billion, which somehow came from this page somewhere, right? I'm sure if we look for 165.

page has, the terms of service are you cannot republish this. You cannot pull this data and republish it. And they agreed to it. Now, if that page is on the open web and you didn't agree to the terms of service, but the bot now the question is, does the bot have to agree to the terms of service? And the bot does. If you send the bot to go do this stuff, you know, it does. And this is why people create bot for watering software.

Yes. And so I bet you the way this is working is they're firing up a browser to do it. And this is where, like, being fair is the easiest path forward, you know. And I think the new standard will be robots.t and language model.t. Or a.i.t. Where they can say, hey, here's our rules. You can use this one time in a session if you put at the start of the sentence, the following information is from this website for the complete information go here.

And that you can present up to 10% of the page. Yeah. How do we make a better internet? Because that's still kind of as a disjointed experience. Like, I like what they did here. And honestly, I wasn't thinking about it. Like, I was like, oh, this is great. They got this information. They linked to where they got it from.

And, you know, but I see your point. How do we make a better internet? I think the robots.t. And a lot of the early Google work was pretty good. They always took a small portion of the original work. And they linked back. And so they could always say, you know, and they said if you don't want to be in the index, you don't have to. So you could opt out of it.

Now, most people would say opting in would be the higher standard. But okay, let's just say opting out at least gives the person who owns it some power. And all you have to do is just put website.com slash robots. Dot T and you get out. But they also said, we're only going to take a small portion of the original content, the abstract. And they even got rid of recently the web cache. Remember they had web cache where you can see the whole page? They got rid of webcash because I think that was causing.

issues around copyright as well. I suspect that's why it went away, but I can't confirm that. And so a better way to do it would be to say, if you want to use me in your language model or your AI product, we have a license, and here's how you can pay for that license,

go here, and it might be you pay automatically through an API, it might be a clearinghouse, like the music industry has, or it might just be talk to our cell scene. You know, if it's ready, it might just say, here, you know, if you want to license it,

talk to this person in sales and set up a meeting. And so, yeah, Some sort of automated rights would be good. If you look at YouTube, they also came up with a solution, which was, if somebody's using my content, I have the right to claim the advertising, right? So if you were to do a Mark Knopfler song on your channel, if we played Mark Knopfler right now, his representatives would claim this video, put ads against it, and they would get the money. They get all the monetization.

All the monetization. So I, as a creator, can be like, you know what, I just wanted to play a dope song. I don't care about the $6 I'm making from this video a year. Yeah, go ahead and take the money. I'm not in for the money. Now, other people, there's an entire genre of reacting to songs. Yes. And they claim fair use. And it's a bit of a hack. There's people type in, I want to listen to Solans of Swing. Oh, yeah, there's a ton of these videos. It's like the first time. Yeah, so just type in Soltons of Sing reaction video and pull it up on the screen and you'll see it on YouTube. I like watching these sometimes, because it's kind of funny for

me to see people, but it's now become offshore. So there are some people in, like I think the Philippines or it might be somewhere in Africa are they have armies of people doing this format which is react to videos and there's so many look reaction comes up automatically way do you see how many there are okay so this one's from two years ago next one four months ago next one three months ago yes next one 10 months ago another one another one keep going and those guys are like the originals by the way there and then i know that guy is a famous person but like You can see how many of these videos there are. And then what you'll notice is a lot of the folks are from foreign countries, and you're like,

wait a second, what's going on? And I think that some group of people in other countries have figured out this is a hack. Now, if you pull one of these up and you look at the back guy, classical composer, reacts to song, the Daily Doug. I love the Daily Doug. This guy's great. He's a professional composer. And he's had a problem because he responded and he goes really into detail.

It's super educational. And he doesn't play the song all the way through. he pauses it and stuff like that. So it's not a replacement for Spotify. Okay, and some of them, they have disclaimers, and then some of them, these get, you know, he loses his monetization. And then he said in his videos,

I don't fight every claim because he makes his money from Patreon. But then there are some people who insist he can't publish it. So then he gets multiple strikes against his account. And if you get three strikes on YouTube, your account gets turned off forever. And so three copyright claims are done forever. And so you have to be careful. if you do too many of these and you have to fight them.

So he'll spend all this time on a reaction video of a certain song. Okay. The artist will not say I want to claim it. They'll say, you can't use it? Period. I'll stop. Wow. Because I was going to ask, can't they just claim it?

But they say, no, they're so pissed off. They just say, you're done. You're done. And then he gets caught in that copyright claim. So anyway, there's abuse in every system. And so YouTube and Google have navigated this over decades. And I think there's something to this give and take where people get to opt out or they have a way to collect the money from it

that, you know, feels at least somewhat fair. You can actually publish an entire version of Star Wars if you edit it. So people have re-edited, like, the three prequels into one movie and then put Clone Wars video into it and made, like, their own movie,

like their own two-hour movie out of like seven hours of videos. And they publish it on YouTube or other places, and as long as they don't claim ownership up or monetize it, it seems like Lucasart is okay with that. We started in one place. Yeah, we went to a totally different place. Well, but it's all related, though. We started in a place where these guys have created this, I think, a really good model.

I thought, you know, they did a really good job. And I think you agreed. They've done a good job of citing where this has come from. Absolutely. To me, of all the models that are out there right now, this is awesome, because you can now at least press that this is not a hallucination and you can go find out where these numbers come from. Yeah, I've always felt sort of.

is super easy to do. The way they're doing it is they put the sources on the side, as opposed to putting them in line, like you would do in a college paper. I like when you put the number one at the end, like you're doing a college paper on Wikipedia. So I would like to see, I would just make that one little edit for the citations.

But otherwise, I give it a B plus. I give it a B plus. I would use it. I like it. I think it should exist in the world and people should have the ability to opt out of it. And what they should aspire to do is send as much traffic

and give as much recognition to the people who they get the content from so that they don't piss them up. Yeah. Maybe it's just like you said, a little bit, a little short snippet here on the right or down below and then basically link people out. So that the original. I gave it a B plus. What did you give it?

Well, so for me, like, you know, we've been spending a lot of time in and around reg for the last year and a half. I was blown away because the number one issue I have, and it's funny because I end up having this argument with friends where they pull something up from Chad GPT and I said, well, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's real. And then, you know, we'll do like a search and find out that it wasn't real. So for me, this was an A because I would send everybody to Command R and say, if you really want a Q&A style approach to a language model, this is where you can do it and you can get the references so we know that what is telling us is real. So what is your grade again? I'm giving it an A. Okay, perfect. I'm giving it a plus. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I had a friend that recently got in trouble on a flight. He was having a grade. I'm giving it a grade. I'm giving a grade. I'm giving a great. I'm giving a guy. I'm giving a friend. I'm a friend that. I was having a couple of drinks before. And then when he boarded, he was carrying a drink in. And then he got rid.

Yeah, exactly. And he got rid of it just as he was sitting down. And he wasn't trying to do anything nefarious. Then they asked him to get off the plane that he pulled out Chad GPT to ask what the rule was that he was trying to show them. And then basically the, you know, the agents and everyone else like, yeah, that's not, that's not the rule. Like you can't walk on a plane with an open drink.

And did he want him getting bounced? Yeah, he did. Yeah, I mean, my advice. is, yeah, if you really like alcohol that much, just the thing about people who love alcohol, I'm not a drinker, as you know. I've seen you have a cocktail once in a while. You know what you can do if you're really that into it

is you could get a bottle of Snapple and put your vodka with Snapple and not have this issue. But I always see these dopey people, not your friends, Toby, but other dopey people who pull out, like, they pull out a bottle of vodka on a plane. And I'm like, are you dumb? Like, just pour it into a snapple bottle and you're drinking a snaple. No, or if you're going to a concert or whatever, are you walking down the street and the second, you can't have an open bottle.

Snap was a way to go. Like, you got the hack. I think he was just, you know, there's like, he was, his plane was delayed. He was drinking at the bar and he just took the drink from there. That was it, like sort of, yeah. He gave it wheels, as we said. He gave it wheels. Oh, I like that.

Gave it wheels. All right. Well, you know, this was a drunk driving, um, very poor taste joke. I grew up in Brooklyn, people would ask you, hey, you want to give it wheels? And people like, yeah, give it wheels. And they would just put your drink in a to-go cup for your ride home. And these people were tanked. So don't drink and drive, folks.

Don't drink and drive. Don't do it. Don't do it. Okay. One last one. This one's really cool. So, you know, end of last year, we talked about multimodal models becoming really, really good. This is a Chinese company actually called Deep Seek.

And they have this new model, very small, only seven billion parameters. And, you know, they have some different examples here. And I just pulled one of them up, which is how many people on this image is why? And so basically there's one person, he's wearing a pink shirt, standing in front of a large mirror. So it's able to figure out that it's a single person's standing in front of a mirror. Why I really liked what this team has done, all these models are open source. They're available to use. And to get a $7 billion parameter model that's able to, you know, hold up this type of reason, exactly, over images.

is this is going to give us superpowers. And this is going to end up everywhere for us. This is really interesting. You can see this on hugging face.co. Yeah. And the name of it is DeepSeek, just do a search for D-E-P-S-E-E-K. And the image given to it is how many people are in the image, period, space, why, question mark. And it's a person holding a mirror as if they're putting the mirror on the wall, like they're

installing it. So it's around mirror. And you can see it's got the reflection of the person. So you would think the computer would get it wrong that there were, was two people in this image. But it says this is one person in the image, period. The individual appears to be a man wearing a pink shirt, which doesn't want to assume gender, it's a little bit woke,

standing in front of a large round mirror that reflects his image. He seems to be adjusting or touching something on the wall beside him, possibly checking for any imperfections for making sure it's aligned properly. Wow. So it knows, because I said it looks like he's trying to adjust it. This action suggests he might be involved some sort of home improvement project or simply ensuring everything looks neat and tidy.

I mean, that is, that's just next level. Come on. It's next level. They're describing the person's actions through the image. That's bonkers. Like how many images must it be trained on to understand somebody's involved in a home improvement project, that they're in a mirror, that they're a man, you know, that they're wearing a pink shirt. I mean, this is nuts.

And it is kind of a pink jacket. So it's not a human would know that's a. pink members only jacket as opposed to a shirt. But hey, at least there's something that a human can figure out in this image. This is an A. Yeah. I mean, based on this one, but is there another one? Click on one more.

Let's take a look. Yeah, yeah. So there's one. Just click on one more. Let's see. Yeah, we'll just do, uh, which one of these do you like? Help me write Python code based on it. Oh, what is this app about?

I like that one too. Both of those I like. Yeah, pick you the one. Let's do this one. Okay, let's do it. All right. So it's showing. Okay.

Help me write a Python code based on the image. And the image. is a thing and if this, then that, right? Kind of situation. The image depicts a flowchart,

okay, for a Python code that simulates a game where the user is asked to guess a number between one and 10, the flow chart includes several condition statements,

which are represented by different color boxes with text in them. Here's how you can write the corresponding Python code. Okay, there we go. I mean, yeah,

it's just getting so good. And I've come to the conclusion that even though many of these things are not ready for prime time, I'm convinced that they will figure it out at a rapid pace. Unlike, say, self-driving, which is incredibly hard because of the edge cases

and because of, like, you know, what's at stake? Like, what's at stake describing an image or writing some software code that you're going to edit anyway? Because you could take this and put it into Devon, right? Yep. Yeah. I mean, it's an egg. This is another one, which is like, what are you,

it's like, hey, what is this app about? So it's like minutes, listened, meditations, points, courses say, and it figures it appears to be a meditation or mindfulness tracking application. This is indicated by your statistics section, which shows metrics such as meditation, minutes, listen, and points. Right. Additionally, there's your mood. This stuff is incredible.

Yeah, it's really, and if you can describe these things, what's interesting is then you could write the next series of prompts. So by describing what's in the image, now you could say, what questions would humans have next. Yes. Right? Or what would a human being like to do next? Yeah.

You know, oh, okay. Yeah, let's go ahead and ask it. Given this information. I don't see what it does. Yeah. Like who makes the app maybe or... Yeah. Basically, in the image, humans might have the following questions.

How many minutes did I spend meditating today? What is the total number of meditation sessions completed? How many courses have I... You just stop thinking. Yeah. It's incredible. Can I set reminders for when to meditate to listen to content? Yeah.

I mean, it's incredible. I mean, it's totally incredible. give us 10 questions that somebody who is using, they took the perspective of the person using the app, what they might be. Wow. Are there any specific activities or challenges within the app that contribute to earning points?

Like, how do I hack this app to level up? I mean, wow. Isn't this just wild? And with 7 billion parameters and the size of this, I could run it perhaps on my M3 laptop? You can for sure run it on your laptop. And this is getting to the place where you can probably run it on your phone. I mean, here we go, folks.

It's a brave new world. And Sonny and I are here to help you with it. This week in startups.com slash AI. This one an A. Let's give them, this was an A, right? It's an A. Hey. Yeah.

A. Yeah. I mean. And this is the thing. I was talking to somebody the other day, and they were just telling me, you know, ah, you know, these big models are expensive. Yep. I was talking to the CEO of Glein, I think.

Yeah, yeah, of course. program. And I think Mamoon from Kleiner backed him. And so the head of Glein was on and he's like, you know, sometimes like we're seeing customers who can use it, I think it was him, but I may have juxtaposed with somebody else. Like it might be better to

ask the question three or four times to these other cheaper, faster models and then ask a follow up question on that and then give an answer than to use the most expensive model. Yes, that's called reflection. It's actually a term with an X. They call that reflection. Just like humans reflect. And so one of the things is all these scores, these benchmark

marks you see J-Cal, they're based on one shot. If you do it multiple times and if it goes fast enough, then who cares? Because if it's just running fast enough, do you really care that it answered in one, you know, because you can get the score way up by doing a multiple times? A bunch of smaller models, get five answers real quick, but then how do you determine which is the best answer? Or how does AI determine what's the best answer? Well, that's really good, the grounding.

Yeah, I mean, there's different ways. One, the humans obviously do the reinforcement learning, but two, the grounding against actual data, right? So like what we saw earlier with Command R. That's the intersection of these things. That's why I don't think we'll ever have a moment where they'll exist without the internet. They'll always have to have the internet. And the internet will become it's sort of the way for these models to go ground themselves in whatever resolution they've come to. Got it. This will be their fact checking department, their reference desk, their card catalog, their library, their Wikipedia, just a way for them to level set that they got it.

right. All right, listen, if you guys want to get it right, this week in startups.com slash AI and x.com slash sundeep, x.com slash Jason. You can follow the show TWA startups on Twitter. And I'm doing some TikTok experiments. So I just search for Jason Kalakana's on TikTok. I did my first TikTok today where I just mentioned Tiananmen Square, the Uighurs, and banning TikTok.

And I just want to see if like it gets past the sensors and anybody sees it. Don't do it. I'm tempting the easy page. I was just curious. It was nice to know. Hey, listen, it was good to know me. I'll be in a, I'll be getting reeducation with Jack Ma. We'll see you all next time.

Bye-bye. Bye.