This Week in Startups - mRNA cancer treatment, Google’s vax policy, Better.com CEO “taking time off” + Founder roundtable: PaidBack, Wearwell, SupporTrends | E1346

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

First Jason covers the Mayo clinic's promising new signs for mRNA cancer treatment (02:02), Google's firm vaccine policy (07:41) and the Better.com CEO stepping away after last week's meltdown (16:39). Then, Jason brings on three founders he has invested in and chats with them about their company: SupporTrends co-founder Oliver Rowen on customer insights (25:23), Wearwell co-founder and CEO Erin Houston on sustainable fashion (37:11), and PaidBack co-founder Amber Masters on budgeting and paying off debt (50:15).

Hey, we have a great show for you today. There's some really positive, amazing news in MRNA. No, it has nothing to do with the pandemic. It has to do with cancer. And the possibility that we can use this MRNA technology to cure and fight cancer to a level that we never actually thought would be possible. Dovetailing that Google has told unvaccinated employees that they're going to have to get vaccinated or figure out another way to either work from home.

or not work at Google anymore because Google is in a tough position. They're trying to comply with Joe Biden's executive order. And we have a follow-up. Better.com CEO is taking a leave of absence. And then you're going to get to meet three amazing founders that I've invested in. One of them is doing a product feedback analysis tool

so you can figure out from feedback from your customers what to put in your product next. Very interesting. One's doing a sustainable shopping subscription service for all of those folks who care about the environment and want to buy sustainable, well-sourced clothing, and then an app that helps you pay off your debt. Stick with us. It's going to be a great episode. This week in Startups is brought to you by Snackmagic is a stress-free way to treat your global team,

clients or sales prospects with a build their own snack box. Get 10% off with code Twist at snackmagic.com slash twist. Marketer Hire. Need expert marketing help fast? Hire vetted marketing specialists this week from the company already used by Netflix, Allbirds and more. Get $500 off your first hire at marketerhire.com slash twist and use the code, twist. And 8Sleep. Good Sleep is the ultimate game changer. Now you can add the pod pro cover to any mattress. Go to 8Sleep.com slash twist to check out the PodPro cover and get a special holiday offer.

This morning, the Mayo Clinic published research that found a positive immune system response to an MRNA, wait for it, not COVID, cancer treatment. Let that sink in for a minute. The pandemic has been horrific. Mental health, the economy, jobs, general strides. people losing years of their lives, kids losing IQ points. I saw some kids are behind, like, massively double digits in their IQ point development. It's been a bit of a disaster. But what if the advances in MRNA and the suffering of the last two years

results in the eradication of cancer, HIV, and other diseases that we've really had a tough time with? Well, I think that's actually the possibility. I've talked about it on the show before, and the Sultan of Science, David Friedberg, and I have discussed it many times. The technology can also be used for other purposes, obviously, MRNA. And according to the Mayo Clinic's research, adding MRNA, messenger RNA, to cancer immunotherapy improves responses in patients who weren't responding to treatment. Untreatable patients, I think is how I would read that.

Here's how the treatment works in plain English. Immunotherapy is supposed to help the body fight cancer, obviously. However, some patients don't respond to it very well, and patients that don't respond, usually have weak T cells. You've heard this all before. Sadly, we've all had people in our lives suffer through cancer. And it was a death sentence for a long time, you know, just two with regenerations ago. So T cells are white blood cells that attack cancer cells and help them stop from spreading.

So this MRNH strategy boosts the T cell response in patients who didn't initially respond well to immunotherapy. So cancer stats from 2020, an estimated 1.8 million new cases diagnosed. That's 5,000 new per day. Estimated 1.8 million new cases diagnosed per year. And 600,000 cancer debts in the United States alone, 1,600 people a day. And we've been losing 1,000 a day, I think, from COVID, if we look at the numbers ultimately here in the U.S. So they're pretty close, in fact, sadly. And who knows? I don't want to get the conspiracy theorists going here, but some number of people who died from COVID would have been probably with COVID or they might have died from the next flu or whatever, which we all know.

But let's not debate that now because I don't want to have the channel get sanctioned as fake news or something like that. We're currently seeing 116,000 new cases a day and 1,700 new deaths per day right now from COVID. Not all bad, though. Our producers were shocked at how positive the stats were over the last couple decades in terms of cancer death rate. According to cancer.org, the death rate from cancer in the, the U.S. declined 29%, 29% from 1991 to 2017. Again, generation to generation, the idea of your parents dying from cancer in their 40s, 50s, and 60s is becoming a rarer and rarer occurrence. I know growing up that I had some friends whose parents when we were young died in their 40s or 50s from cancer tragically.

And millennials and Gen Z and my kids, they're going to have less of this experience. 2.2% drop from 2016 to 2017, the largest single-year drop ever recorded. Not sure why that happened. Here's a chart. Total cancer diagnosis and deaths among men and women since 1975. Obviously, some of these are going to be impacted by behavior, but this translates to more than 2.9 million debts avoided since 1991. This was mostly due to the massive decline in lung cancer, obviously. This is a behavioral thing. lung cancer death rates declined 51% from 1990 to 2017 among men and 26% from 2002 to 2017 among women. Other types of cancer death rates have been declining as well. I think a lot of this has to do from early detection breast cancer death rates declined 40% from 89 to 2017.

Posterate cancer death rates and my dad had prostate cancer and survived. Thank God, 1993 to 2017. And my mom's a breast cancer survivor. So literally both my parents still alive decades after having cancer. Thank you too. science and doctors keep my parents around. And so the treatment is part of this and preventive measures like not smoking and early detection are the other ones. But MRI is going to just take this to a whole other level. The idea of dying from cancer could go away in our

lifetimes. Is that possible? I've talked to scientists who think that's possible. If you think about the leading companies in MRNA, you know Moderna, Biointech, Curevac, and Translate Bio, these all have huge market caps. And Moderna is working on what they call an individualized cancer vaccine. This is where they sequence a patient's DNA from their blood and their tumor. And then once they can identify the cancerous mutations, they create a vaccine that encodes for each of these mutations and loads them into one single MRNA molecule. In other words, it's customized.

And when that MRNA is injected, the hope is, the immune system will be better informed as to which cancer cells will go after. pretty much like having some like, I don't know, military scout go out ahead of time and figure out like, here's the enemy's battle plan and here's how we're going to counter it. Like it's like having a spy, right? It's like having a plant inside the enemy's strategy. How great is this? And everybody's complaining the world's terrible. Well, I do think that this pandemic is going to have a lot of silver lining. So I think we're going to take education, health, work and a number of these issues a lot more seriously and have a lot more innovation in them. So speaking of MRNA vaccinations, Google leadership has told the unvaccinated employees that they'll lose pay and eventually be fired if they do not comply and get a vaccine, as is the right of a private company. According to CNBC, employees received a memo stating that most U.S. workers have to comply with Google's vaccine policy, and that stems from Biden's executive order. As you know, the Biden administration ordered companies with 100 workers or more to make sure employees are vaccinated or COVID-tested weekly. So this order is on hold as the court deals with people contesting the legality of it. I heard Ben Shapiro, a famous podcaster, is filing a legal challenge to it.

And what a great way to get some interest in your podcast, you know, from a cynical perspective. But I think he actually believes that this is oversepping. And honestly, I can see both sides of this story. I don't think the government should be allowed to force you to get a vaccine, put a gun to your ad. but I do think private businesses should be allowed to say who is allowed to work there based on vaccines. Both of these seem obvious to all of us, I believe. So we're probably not that far off on our belief in this. If we talk to each other as opposed to using social media, the greatest evil, the cancer of our generation, social media and the sort of click date media, I would say, are the cancerous part.

those are, if you took those two, they're the cancer, the obesity and the jewel of the modern error. Social media combined with the clickbait media. I'm not saying journalism, saying clickbait media, which some people might interpret as me saying journalism, but specifically the people who are just trying to whip things up and make you feel anxiety, fear, rage. And I put that in two buckets. Clickbait media, social media. And I think that's why Twitter is trying to move itself away from being toxic and really trying to strongly to make a less toxic debate. So right now, as I said, that order is on hold.

According to CNBC, the memo stated employees had until December 3 to show they are vaccinated or apply for a medical or religious exemption. They don't show proof of vaccination, apply for exemption or denied an exemption. Google will contact them. If the employees do not get vaccinated by January 18th, they will be placed on paid leave for 30 days. After that, they will be placed on unpaid personal leave for six months, followed by termination. So they are giving the most delicate landing possible here. It seems Google to comply with Biden's order.

If they don't want to be vaccinated, they can explore roles at Google that don't go against the executive order. These would be roles that fall outside the executive order, independent contractors, and leased employees. I've never heard the term least employees. That sounds dystopian. They're human beings. You don't lease them. Come up with something else. If they do find a role and it can be done outside the office, Google will make this.

employee permanently remote, which makes total sense. CNBC that report that Google is not delaying their return to office plans like most of the tech industry. They will require employees to come into the office three days per week at some point during the new year. That's kind of a big open statement. The new year, technically, is the entire year because it's a new year. So I don't know if that means the first 30 days of the new year or the first 100 days,

but nobody knows what's going to happen. I'm super positive. I think this Omicron is like the end of it, I'm hoping. Knock on wood, it seems like the death rate from that just isn't showing up or people are saying like the first death. And I'm like, wait a second. If this thing is spreading like crazy, we've only had one death, what does that tell us? Either people are getting vaccinated and it's working or this thing is weaker and it spreads fast. I don't know.

Or maybe we're hitting some kind of herd immunity. I don't think anybody knows and nobody's going to be able to handicap perfectly what is happening here. So we'll leave it at that. Also, there were a couple hundred employees who wrote some sort of manifesto. that they were against the COVID mandate, you know, out of the 100,000 plus Google employees. So to me, that's an incredibly low number that only a couple of hundred people.

And again, if you care about my position, which you don't need to, I think my position fits with, in all likelihood, the majority of you listening, which is the vaccines are safe and worth taking. But if you don't want to take it, I don't think we can hold you down in America and shove a needle in your arm.

But we can incentivize you to get it. How are we going to incentivize you to get it? Well, you can't go to Cheesecake Factory. And I saw a bunch of idiots sitting in a Cheesecake Factory without masks. Let me tell you something. If you want to protest, protesting to inside of Cheesecake Factory, I would do a protest to never have to go to a cheesecake factory. Are you guys crazy?

That's your protest. It's 2021. There is a million things in the world you could protest. and you're protesting the cheesecake factory, not letting you eat there in a mask? Oh my lord. This place is horrible. Sorry, come at me.

That might go on Jason's rules of never things, which is if the menu has more than 100 items on it, yeah, no go. Yeah, no go. Spiral Binder, not the restaurant I want to be at. Just pick your lane, do something well. Do something better than everybody, but I am not interested in the cheesecake factory.

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So anyway, totally fair ask from Google. And there, if you look at it, I know the clickbait media and the social outrage media, they will be dunking on this. But when you break apart what Google is doing here, they're trying to comply with Biden's Band-Aid, and they got to stay on his good side because, you know, antitrust, etc. They need to play ball, let's be honest.

And, you know, they might want to acquire something big again, like YouTube. So they're trying to play ball. That's what's happening here. Trying to be supportive. They're giving their employees just a ridiculous runway here to get this done. And then they're saying, wink, wink, if you can't, you know, see a way to get this vaccine and we've got to work from home rule as a consultant. Sure, we'll try to work it out with you as long as we're respecting Biden's executive order.

So that's kind of the wink. What they're saying is if you don't want to get it, stay home and be a consultant. But we're all coming back to work. Be respectful. Everybody coming back to work gets the vaccine. The end. Perfectly played by Google. I know everybody on Twitter and the clickbait media is going to do fake.

news headlines and be outraged on social media, just read the facts, people, and think for yourself. What would you do as the CEO of Google? You would do the exact same thing they're doing. Please get it. We're coming back at some point. And if you don't like it and you really are opposed to the vaccine, you can work from home. That's basically what they're saying here. And they're just trying to, if you have any level of insight here and just think what Sundar is

thinking for a moment, Sundar is just thinking, how do I game this so the few holdouts, they're absolutely exceptional employees can still work here. That's what he's thinking. He's like, is there anybody in the 1% of people at Google or 2% of people that don't want to get vaccinated that are critical if they are? And we can keep them as consultants, great, switch their contract from salary to consultant, figure out how to do it. HR, you take care of it.

All right. Speaking of HR, better.com CEO is taking a leave of absence. It's taking time off effective immediately. In case you missed it, Friday's clickbait media reported that better CEO, Vichael Garg, was taking a leave of absence, Motherboard, gained an email. I'm calling Motherboard, the clickbait media. Motherboard and vice are just like, everything's the end of the world. It's exhausting how everything is just a disaster with those folks. I mean, just the same as on the other side, Fox and Owen, is how you pronounce it?

One America News Network. I mean, it's who named their network, One American News Network? I mean, these people are just based on the title they gave their network. I can tell you that it's terrible content. Putting that aside, here are some quotes from the board of directors. Fashal will be taking time off of the effective immediately, yada, yada. The board has engaged an independent third party firm to do a leadership and culture assessment. That's nonsense.

They're just going to hire a firm and give them 50 grand and the firm's going to whitewash the whole thing. No big deal. That's how it works. I mean, if you're paying for it, how independent is it, right? Think it through, folks. the recommendation of this assessment will be taken into account to build a long-term,

sustainable and positive culture at betterment. Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. Here's a 33-second clip of my suggestion from December 8th, just a couple days ago. I'll see you on the other side of 33 seconds. You're a terrible leader. I can tell you that.

And if I was on your board, I would have the board fire you for that email and for that performance. Those are unacceptable performances as the CEO. That's just bad leadership. You're unfit to lead. But anybody who's working at this company, I should leave immediately. Because I can tell you from just these two instances that this person is not a leader you should be part of.

This person, in all likelihood, will repeat these same mistakes. Because for somebody to change, they need to want to change and they need to take deliberate action to change. I don't see that in this individual. Okay. They have it. I mean, I was kind of beating around the bush there, trying to subtly get my point across. But the guy's a disaster. It's so clear.

is a disaster just from, you know, all the things that have come out. Now, you could say it's a hit job and he's being misinterpreted, but, you know, to fire people on the Zoom, I don't want to beat the dead horse here, but to fire people, 900 people on Zoom right before Christmas, it just shows a lack of empathy and the person needs to go to, again, I don't mean to make this too personal, but you're going to have to go to therapy and you're going to have to talk to a leadership coach and or a therapist and say, how did I miss this when everybody else saw it? It's not like a debt sentence or anything.

Listen, I had blind spots before in my life. And people need coaching. And, you know, listen, I used to fight too much with too many people. I was fighting on all fronts of, you know, over nonsense when I was a kid and an editor of a magazine. Everything was a, I saw everything as a battle, right? And I don't see it like that anymore. I have a sense of humor about stuff. And I pick my targets, you know, in a very considered way.

So I have had blind spots. You have blind spots. This person has just like a major blindspot. that could cause a risk of ruin inside their own company, which is talent's not going to want to work for somebody like this. That's the big problem for the board. If I was on the board, as I said, I'm thinking about the next five hires.

You know, the bar raisers, as we talk about, you know, Amazon's bar raisers. We're going to hire somebody who's better. Somebody who's better than the CEO is going to look at that CEO and say, why would I work for them? I'm so much better than them that I'm going to go work for somebody who's flawed. And that is the key issue here. the article says three high-ranking employees resigned after the layoff fiasco.

Top talent does not want to work for leadership that is not worthy of, you know, being in the captain's chair. That's just how it works, folks. You're going to lose great people. People don't want to work for somebody who's that flawed. They don't mind a leader, you know, just as a caveat here. A leader who knows their blind spot and says, listen, I'm not organized. I'm a vision CEO or somebody says, I'm obsessive-compulsive,

but I'll leave the vision and the product stuff to y'all. I'm a sales-driven, marketing-driven CEO. People love that. People love a CEO who can be introspective, criticize themselves, and be aware of their blind spots. That's showing vulnerability. This person didn't show that. And that's why I think I'm being compassionate here.

And if he wants to come on the pot and talk about it, I assume this person is a good person who just has a blind spot and needs to evolve. And who knows what's going on in the personal. They could be under a lot of stress. They could be going through some personal turmoil. So you have to have a little compassion here. But there's a higher level of responsibility when you choose to be in the captain's seat of a plane.

I think we can all agree on that. So if you're the pilot and you're going through some terrible, you know, depression, anxiety, personal problems, whatever, existential crisis, you don't do your job as a pilot. You say, listen, I shouldn't be in the pilot seat. if what I'm doing, what's going on in my personal life is too acute to ensure the safety of everybody on the plane. That's how you have to think about a CEO, right? That's how you think of a CEO.

And you got to think about the folks who are on the board as like air traffic control and the people running the airline and the maintenance crew. They're kind of ensuring that the pilot has everything around them they need, the people who set the rules, the training staff, the people who do maintenance. All of them are just trying to make sure that the pilot can, the plane. And they did the right thing here because you can't have a pilot in there who's going to, you know, make the plane spiral. And this plane was about to spiral. So a great job. And if you've ever had to deal with a CEO like this, you know, it's a good indication for you to move to a different

company, right? Leadership matters. If you think the CEO is flawed, you can just have a conversation with them and say, listen, maybe it's not my place. But I think as a leader, you're not the right person here. And I'm going to make the choice to go to another company where I can believe in the leader. And in today's competitive environment, there's more expected of leaders. I've tried to up my leadership game. Just because I look at how the world is working right now, if people don't want to go to work and people want to start their own companies, people are independent and 25-year-olds are

starting their first funds or syndicates, you know, they're on podcasts. They don't need to come work for me, right? There's a lot more choices out there. So all CEOs, all leaders have to up their game and be worthy of talent coming to work for them, top talent. So this person, I think, maybe got a little high on their own supply. Again, I don't want to beat them up, but there's the follow-up there. And again, I'd love to have him on the pod when he's ready to reflect on this. And I will make it, I don't want to say safe space, but I'll make, I won't dunk on the guy anymore than I have.

I do have compassion in my heart, actually, for people who have success but have blind spots. because listen, I invest in entrepreneurs as a living. So I love to have him on the pod. That's an open intro, and it would be respectful. And I would try to make that an actually positive experience for him and for the audience. Like, what can we learn from this? What would you have done differently? So to my producers, let's get him on.

If anybody's personal friends with him, send him this clip. Okay, next up, you get to meet with a couple of the companies I've recently invested in. Stay tuned. Are you falling behind on your Q4 marketing goals? Well, wouldn't it be nice to hire a ringer right now to help you out to hit all those important goals and with marketer hire now you can. They give you access to expert freelancers on demand. There's no long-term contracts and there's no risk. You can hire experience specialists across the most valuable marketing disciplines. You know what they are. Paid social, paid search,

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So here's your call to action. Get $500 off your first hire. 500, $5.20s. Right now, marketer hire.com slash twist. Marketerhire.com slash twist. You can also get a free consultation on who to hire based on your needs and your goals. So that's 500 right now, marketer hire.com. M-A-R-K-E-T-E-R-H-I-R-E dot com slash T-W-I-I-S-T. All right, next up on the program, I'm going to introduce you to three companies I recently invested in. The show is called This Week in Startups.

I used to always have the founders I was investing in on the program. That was kind of the whole purpose of the program. I'd meet people who are capital allocators. We'd talk about our portfolios and investing generally. And then we talk about the companies we invested in. Sometimes we'd have them on and then invest in them, like Com. And sometimes we'd invest in them and then have them come on the program. And so we had the launch accelerator's 22nd cohort back in March to July of 2021.

And I just thought, let's have a couple of them on. Give them 10 minutes each. They show their product. These are early stage companies. The thing you can do as a. fan of technology or stage for companies is just go try the product and give feedback to the founders. They always love that. As I always say, founders spell love, just like kids do, T-I-M-E. Give them a little bit of time, try their product, give them a little feedback, always helpful. Could be critical. They

can all handle it. Could be what you love. Could be a combination of both. But we want to have people out there making great products and services to delight companies, great jobs and move through human species. Forward. First up, Oliver Rowan, who is with Support Trends. Oliver, welcome to the program. Hey, Jason. Doing great. How are you? Good. So tell everybody what does support trends do? Yeah, support trends processes all of your customer feedback and tells you what matters. You know, regardless of whether it's a few thousand conversations or a few hundred thousand conversations, we help you understand the important stuff.

And why is that important to companies? Yeah, customer feedback is everything. You know, you can you can listen to customers that have opinions about all kinds of things, both good and bad and it affects your ability to revise. a product to make it better next time through. And when you release products, it helps you release better products, helps you uncink wrinkles in the customer service or customer support experience. Your customers tell you all of these things.

And it's important. So how do you do it? How do you take this big corpus of customer requests, which I'm assuming are sitting in some, you know, Salesforce or Zendesk or whatever? You've got all these customer tickets laying in some SaaS software. How do you, uh, analyze all that and tell people what's important. Yeah.

So with Zendesst, for example, we connect to Zendesk, and then as a ticket comes in, it's processed by our platform. And over time, they accumulate. And what our platform does is each time a ticket or other customer conversation closes, call recording, social media, whatever, the platform processes it for natural language. It structures that unstructured data and organizes it by importance so that you can view reporting and insights over time. that tells you essentially what the most important things going on with your customers are.

All right. So why don't you show us a demo of the product and remember if people are going to be listening to the podcast. So make sure you sportscast it. In other words, explain what's happening on the screen in detail. So first thing I do is connect all of my customer communication platforms that I talked about, survey responses, tickets, call recordings, things like that, essentially anywhere customers talking to you.

And then here we can see that support trends ingests all of these conversations as they happen. they analyze for churn likelihood, sentiment, KPI, things like that. Most importantly, it flags what customers are talking about regardless of whether or not I'm looking for it. So I know why customers are upset or why they're happy. And then, you know, here you can see I'm telling the system to notify me when a certain criteria happens again. So I don't have to sit there staring at screen. It tells my team.

What is the example there? That's when a KPI. Well, see, now, this is where you can do better presenting. Always tell them what the example is. So here, you'd say, you just said an event, but it would be better to say exactly what event. So if more than 10 people mention a keyword, or if this specific keyword cancellation or a competitor name, so if I was, you know, Instacart, anytime DoorDash comes up, I want to know, or anytime Whole Foods or Amazon comes up, I want to get an alert as a CEO.

So is that the case of what we're talking about here? Yeah, yeah, you have the idea. You can tell the system, hey, I know these things are important and look for those, or you can view certain reports that tell you what is important of the customers that they're just talking about. It could be master pin or something that you had no idea was important. It'll surface there. Got it. And do the existing platforms do this yet?

Because this is where I think VCs will give you the classic. Isn't this just a feature? Like what happens when Zendesk and Salesforce and HubSpot or whoever does CRM software? What happens when they edit? So I guess, how did you, did that question come up a lot from downstream VCs? we introduced you to or you met with, and then how did you answer it? It does come up occasionally, but each platform is interested in kind of keeping you beholden to that platform. So, you know, let's say Zendesk, who's a partner of ours, you know, they're

collaborative with us. If they're going to offer natural language processing of some sort, they're going to make it work on Zendesk. Support trends, on the other hand, works with Twitter, it works with all the ticketing platforms, it works with voice over IP system, it works with survey platforms. And we are not stuck to any one of those. So that's a big differentiator. And most of those, most of your customers are obviously enterprise customers and they will have multiple streams of information coming in from customer support. Like you said, Twitter, people might be emailing. Yeah, some of that gets forward into Zendesk. Other stuff might be surveys. So you want to have all those different rich data streams coming in. And so how do you charge for the product? What's the exact

pricing for people? And who's the ideal customer profile? We talk about that a lot. Who is the ideal customer for your product? Yeah. pricing starts at $499 a month. Okay. It's a flat rate service starting at $4.99. We work with a lot of customer service and customer experience departments, and we're starting to work with a lot of marketing departments, too, that run high, high volumes of surveys through the platform so that they can process and see, you know, the trends and all the demographics that are important to them. Got it. And, And OG Bob G asked a question. Is this bottoms up product strategy?

Can lower level employees start using the software in big companies and then, you know, like Yammer and Slack move it up? Or is it too expensive for that pricing? Or, you know, how do you think about that? Yeah, we actually just just released a survey only price point of $99 a month. And that's the bottoms up opportunity because lots of folks have access to surveys and have a lot of survey data they can't analyze. So that's our play there.

And it absolutely can be bottomed up. So if I'm using SurveyMonkey type form and just a Google sheet, I can ingest that into support trends.com and analyze it for just $99 bucks a month. And if it works great, then maybe I want the full package to go and I get the authorization to ingest other sources of data inside of my organization. Absolutely fantastic. You guys are doing great from what I understand. Getting close to that 50K, a quarter in revenue. So you're very early, about 80 customers or so. about right? A fewer than that, but growing every week. Ah, got it. Okay. And so at this early stage, how has your experience been with VCs? Obviously, some of them want to see a bigger base of revenue.

A lot of people say, like, hey, Series A starts at a million dollars in ARR. I don't know if that's no longer true or whatever. What are you seeing out there? What do Series A investors and seed investors expect from a SaaS company in terms of the annual run rate, how much money you're making each month times 12 in terms of subscriptions, if they were monthly subscriptions or just the total annual value of all the reoccurring contracts. What are they looking for? Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So we encountered sort of at $10,000 a month threshold. You know, that's where, that's where a lot of folks, you know, want to see see you pass. Before that, the justification is, is that, you know, you could get your friends and family to sign up or something and kind of

almost get there. So that's an important one. And you just blew past 10K a month. So that's great. So now conversations are qualitatively different for you as a founder? Yeah, yeah, it's kind of... Or people just take the meeting, I guess. They take the meeting and it usually goes a second meeting at that point. Beneath that threshold, it's a little bit harder. And then what do you think the threshold is as a slam dunk in terms of month-over-month growth? Because they are looking for month-over-month growth.

Have investors giving you feedback of what they look for in terms of month-over-month growth to make either a big seed round, a couple million bucks, or a series A, which today's market is five to 20 months. dollars. Yeah, so we've been around, you know, 15 to 20 percent month over month. And I think that's the threshold. But because we're there, it doesn't really come up as an objection. You know, we kind of check that box. They do want to see your go-to-market action. That's a popular one. What does that mean to somebody who doesn't know your go-to-market plan? You're going to market action? Yeah, how are you going to sell this thing? How are you selling it now?

And how are you going to sell it six months from now? And, you know, 10-exit. So it needs to be a scalable thing. It can't be the founder. What was your answer to that? So initially it was tough, you know, because it was just me. I was the founder and I was just reaching out to everybody could on LinkedIn. But, you know, we've outsourced our SDR process, sales development rep process. And we're scaling that. So that's been our answer. Got it.

So starting with SDR, sales development reps, these are people who typically get paid, you know, in America, $30,000 a year plus a 10K bonus to just find leads and just introduce them to the product. So that could be from email, that could be on the phone, whatever. and then SDRs is one of the highest churn positions in sales departments. People either quit because they hate doing it or they wind up becoming account executives because they want to close and they want to double their salary. So SDRs are a great way to just increase the number of leads. And so that's a great answer. If you say you have SDRs, at least you know how a sales team works and you understand

the value of leads. So great job. Good Sleep is the ultimate game changer. We all know that. And according to eight sleep, Over 30% of American struggle with sleep and temperature is one of the main reasons. I know this because my wife and I, listen, we run at two different temperatures. I like it nice and cool.

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A lot of my friends are investors in eight sleep as well. Great job. It's Aaron Houston of Warewell is on the program next. She's co-founder and CEO of Warewell, which you can see at shopwarewell.com. So tell me what does Warewell do and explain to the audience why you created it. Yeah, thanks for having me on, Jason. Wearwell is a membership platform to shop for sustainable clothes. You know, more than ever people want to know that they are making a positive impact on the world when they choose to make a purchase.

Nielsen released some research about a year ago saying this is the decade of the sustainable shopper. Yet if you are a sustainable shopper, you know just how utterly frustrating that process can be. not because that the products that you want don't exist, but it's just too time-consuming to be able to find them, especially when it comes to your clothing and accessories. And we also know that the fashion industry is one of the largest polluting industries of our planet today. There's a whole lot going on that can be transformed to be more sustainable. There are about 34 million women in the U.S. today who identify as sustainable shoppers.

They spend about $2,000 every single year on their clothing. So my co-founder, Emily, and I decided to build Wearwell to make it really easy for them to build a sustainable wardrobe and to support the growth of emerging brands that are really walking the talk when it comes to workers' rights and the environment. And for people who don't know, young people are very concerned about the planet. Increasingly, it's generational and millennials are getting older and they care about the planet in a deep way. Gen X, maybe a mixed bag boomers, you know, maybe their kids harang them into it. But this is really a millennial driven and a Gen Z-driven phenomenon. Am I correct, Erin? Yes, that's absolutely correct. And what we find is that we're most

successful with millennial women because they have come into more spending power. But we're seeing a lot of indicators that Gen Z, they want the same type of positive impact. It's just they're just a little bit behind the curve in terms of that spending power and obviously headed that way. And this is an amazing, I hate to say something positive about humanity at this point because I know we all have to be so negative. But we literally are living in such a time of abundance that people at least in America and maybe some other developed countries are willing to pay two to three times as much money to eat a fake hamburger that's better for the planet than to eat a real one that nine out of 10 people, 95 out of 100 people would say taste better. You could get an amazing, you know, four or five dollar,

you know, five guys or in and out burger, eight bucks. I don't know if inflation's gone up a little bit. shake shack, whatever it is. Shout out to our guy, Danny Meyer, we've got to get him on the program. Legend. But people will actually pay

two or three times to eat something that's objectively worse. Here, people will pay more money, limit their choices dramatically in order to buy something

that's better for the planet but objectively, no better for themselves. Am I correct? Yeah, that's absolutely correct. I think, you know, there's what I have seen over the past five or six years is there's really this missing market in sustainable fashion. There are people who are shopping luxury who have always wanted to spend a whole lot more on clothing and people who are used to fast fashion and want to be more sustainable.

And so now where we're at is people are recognizing, okay, I can spend two to three more times on a shirt, for example. And it's really around, you know, J. Cruz pricing, Anthropology's pricing. It's not runaway costs here, but it's better for the planet. They feel better about it. They feel better about spending their money that way. And it's typically better constructed, so it lasts longer for them. That's the key for me. I have decided, now that I'm old, that I want to buy like the best version of everything

and see if it can last 20 or 30 years. In other words, what I got left on the planet. So like I buy Danner boots and I buy Crocket and Jones shoes. Daner boots are known for a brand from the Pacific Northwest at a Japanese company bought. And I buy my Daner boots. I listen, James Bond's wears them too. Daniel Craig, my style icon. And I buy those specifically because I know I'll have my downer boots until I die.

I will stop hiking before these downer boots will. And I'll hand them off to somebody and they will use them. They can last for 30 or 40 years. And the Crocadne's shoes, they last a decade. And you just get the souls redone. And they typically cost a little more, but they last a lot better. So this is an absolutely awesome innovation. So what is the mechanics?

Let's take a look at a demo of the product. Again, you've got over 1,000 people who are paying a monthly membership. I know you got over 90% retention rate. You're doing pretty good. You're making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, obviously. So walk us through the product and explain every detail for people who are just listening, please. Yeah, absolutely. So a customer comes to our website and they click a button that says start your style quiz.

They take a quiz telling us about their sizing, their fit needs, their style preferences, budget and what they care about most. And then they choose to sign up for a monthly membership. That membership is $8.50 per month. And as a part of that membership, they receive a monthly selection of ethically and sustainably made clothing and accessories that is curated for them by a personal stylist. They can browse those six items that were personally curated alongside other products of the moment.

And they can click in and read about the social and environmental impact of each one. For example, the green skirt that we just saw on the screen. there. It is made of tensile. It's a fabric that uses less water than most fabrics that are that are created. It was made in a factory that pays its garment workers a living wage. They add what they want to their cart. We ship them only what it is they've chosen to buy. And they, in addition to this monthly selection, they also have a lot of other members only perks, such as free shipping, access to new product drops. So lots of reasons to come back and shop with us every single month. And ultimately, you can see what we're doing there is just simply making it easy for

them to build a sustainable wardrobe. It's just asset heavier asset light. Do you have to put this stuff in stock or do you just partner with these brands and then drop ship them from them? How does all that work? Yeah, great question. So we know that it's really important to control the customer experience and make sure it's a seamless one for them. So what we've done is we have a blended approach to our inventory. So leaning on the asset light side. We've got about 45 brand partners today. We carry some of their products. Most of it is on consignment and a few trusted brand partners we have drop ship with. Fantastic. And going out and raising money from Boomer and even Gen X folks for a narrow vertical community, I know from my experience, and delivering goods is going to lead to,

oh, we don't do that. We're not in that category. We want you to service everybody, not just the niche. And then I think, you know, a lot of people will want to take the meeting and feel good about taking the meeting and giving you all kinds of free advice. But let's face it, you want the dore me. You want to secure the bag. You want to get the money. So how does one with a mission driven company in 2021 overcome the fact that, hey, sometimes a mission driven company coming in with a niche audience that obviously is growing? How do you overcome those type of objections? Did you actually get those kind of objections? But did everybody just know you and tell you you're like amazing for doing this? And it's not a fit. I couldn't get my partners over the over the hump. I wish it was just,

you know, you're amazing. Here you go. But what we found to be. be most successful is really, you know, leaning into the mission is what gets people hooked and gets people interested. But when we're actually pitching, you got to lean into the business aspects. So, for example, our average order value today is $136. Our retention rate is 94%. That makes a great business regardless of whether you're focused on social impact or not. So the way that we pitch, when we're pitching that type of investor who you painted that picture of is really leaning in and saying, this is a great business. We just happen to be doing good by being in business.

Got it. So you flip it. When you're hiring an employee, you might talk about, hey, the mission, the mission, the mission,

the mission. That helps you get employees. When you talk about the customers, mission, mission, mission, mission. When you talk to investors, you shift the gear a little bit and say,

look at this incredible business metrics, driven by our mission. Exactly. It's like a little subtle flip. And absolutely fantastic. And so people are essentially paying you about a hundred bucks a year to be their personal stylist

and just present them with opportunities to buy stuff, that has a great margin. That's what they're paying for for $100 a year. Yes, absolutely. So the question is, are there a million people in the world, or at least that say the United States, that would pay $100 for a stylist to give them really great sustainable choices that look great on them? Yeah. So when we've done the analysis of our market, there are about 34 million women who fit the demographic

that would pay for what we're doing. have to then break it down, look at income, look at what do they have around them in their geography. So we absolutely believe that there are a million women in particular, which means the next frontier for us is moving to gender neutral and men's and also extending into other categories when we're able. Honestly, if you could tell me like, hey, this t-shirt, because I'm, you know, guys wear t-shirts and I don't know what happened, but I used to get three for ten, and now I'm buying $60 and $90 T-Shirt. But I don't know if that's a function of my,

me doing better in life or just I'm being suckered for this new casual stuff. But I do see a like a distinct difference in the T-shirt wars. I am now, I went, I'm Mac Weldon. I enjoyed for a long time. James Purse. I'm now very focused on Vince as a brand. I like Vince as a brand. And Page, P-A-I-G-E, which I guess was a women's brand. But I don't know if they're doing what they're doing to the environment, where they're making,

these. And I actually would like to not buy things out of China, but is it even possible to buy clothes and not shop from China? Because I like Nike. And now I'm just like, I kind of feel like I don't want to buy Nike anymore because all the factories are in China and the human rights issue. Yeah. So I deeply appreciate this question because the country of origin doesn't tell you much at all. It can be a good indicator if you're looking at the country of origin and the price point that you're paying. It's pretty easy to say, okay, they're probably not paying their makers a living wage with those two things in consideration. However, you can absolutely make an ethical t-shirt. Vince can do that. Page can do that in China. It's a matter of having transparency into the factories and then beyond transparency, actually asking the questions of how are these garment workers treated? What wages are they being paid? Do they have things like the right to unionize? We go through that with all of our brand partners. We developed a unique process of vetting our brand partners to see who really is walking the talk in that space. And there are to do that with bigger brands,

you just have to really dig in and spend your time doing that, which a lot of people don't want to do. And I've been pitched on these virtual stylists for a long time. Can I, like, move up the stack with my stylist, as it were, and say, hey, listen, for me,

like, I know that you have, like, this very high benchmark, but sometimes I might want a little more styling and I'm okay, opening up the aperture of what's allowed in terms of my sourcing. Do those, request comes in or come in or are people sort of like really narrowly focused on this? And I just want

to hit this very high benchmark of, you know, sourcing and quality. We hold our stylists to account to make sure that they're really hitting the mark, of course. However, we get customer feedback twice a month from members where they can tell us, hey, I really liked this piece. I want something that goes with it. Or I have this gap in my wardrobe. Can you find me the perfect black t-shirt? and we have our stylist go and find those types of items and what's available to them to be able to show to the customer. Absolutely fantastic. Congratulations on your success. Pleasure being an investor in the company and wish you great success.

All right. Next up on the program, we are going into another great category. We had SaaS and now we have consumer memberships, right? I would consider it a consumer subscription product that we just saw. And next up, finance. So when you think about really the four or five really great categories that investors like software, typically SaaS is how we refer to it today, but people use just call it software businesses. SaaS, software as a service, reoccurring subscription revenue.

Consumer subscriptions, com, Netflix. Again, subscriptions to the revenue just keeps coming in. People love that. And there are a consumer that are ad-driven, you know, social networks, etc., Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. Then you have FinTech, which would be Coinbase, Wealthfront, Robin Hood, then Square or whatever. You have marketplaces, which would be Airbnb, Uber, eBay, Craigslist, two-sided marketplaces, buyers and sellers coming together. Uber is considered that DoorDash's considered that because you're putting restaurants and

drivers and consumers who want to get food shipped to them or move themselves from point A to point B. Those are marketplaces. And so those are the big ones. And FinTech is the one that's particularly hot right now. So Amber Masters is with paid back. She's the founder. And they charge a dollar a month to make paying back your debt easy.

and fun. It's a motivational tool. And I believe affiliate revenue is a big part of how you make money. User base growing 15% a month. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about why you started the company, what the mission is, and who are your ideal customers? Yeah, of course. Also, hi, Jason. How are you doing? Great to be here. I am doing well. Good. Well, it started for my own journey, paying off 650K in student loans. So I was experiencing- I'm sorry. Hold on a second. You had $65,000 in student loans? $650,000. How is that part?

Did you buy, do you go to graduate school twice or something? 650,000, 65% of a million dollars is what you got in student debt. How is that even possible? Yeah, it's wild. It was between me and my husband, so I went to law school. Yeah, I went to law school. He went to demo school. So we went to expensive.

Oh, Dendos school is very expensive. Okay, so that's like 300. Okay, now that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. And there's a lot of people in that. that boat. Like, when we started sharing our journey, we were realizing, like, a lot of people have six, not just six-figured debt, but like half a million dollars in debt. And so we kind of

came up with these principles that we were using to pay off debt, which was we're sharing our journey on social media, we're tracking our debt, we were refinancing for lower interest rate and finding other ways to save money. So we kind of wrap those principles into that, into our app, and that led us to where we are today. Okay. So a key principle is, is knowing what interest rate you're paying for various things, whether it's your school debt, your home, I guess credit cards, and then trying to find lower ones. So that is a key driver in success in paying down your debt.

Definitely. It can save you a lot in interest and your monthly payment as well. Got it. And then just there's a behavioral thing here about learning how to save and to budget and to pay down debt. Is that part of the product as well? or is it more about just other optimizations? We don't do any budgeting in the app.

We have AI recommendations. So what a user does is enters in all of their debt accounts. And then we have AI that figures out, hey, like you're paying 15% on your student loans. Like, that's ridiculous. Here's 20 offers. Really, people are paying 15%. That's like a credit card.

So what does you show is the product? Since we're at the product demo phase, let's look at it. So when a user first logs in, they're tracking their debt. So they can see all of their debt in one, easy to see place. They also can do things like

browse our feed where other people are paying off debt and they can like and comment on other people's journeys. They can actually make their debt payments in the app. And then here when they do make an extra payment, they can enter that in the app. And then we'll send them a congratulatory message for doing so, which we display in our feed.

And then they can also share it on other social media like their Instagram or TikTok or whatever behooves them to get more like, I call them out of boys, but when you're liking and commenting on other people's progress, it helps you keep going on your own journey. Got it. So a little gamification

as it were. Exactly. How do you make money? Let's go through that, the business line. Yeah, we had a big change. So at the beginning, you mentioned the dollar a month. We are now free. So what we've offered that we used to charge a dollar a month for is completely free. And at the new year, we're

actually charging $8 a month. for our users to be able to link their debt accounts, get custom AI recommendations, access to lower interest rates from some of our partners, and then they can text our debt experts, so they can ask us questions about their debt. Sometimes it's just, you know, like, is refinancing a smart decision,

or what should I do with my student loans while student loans are on freeze and that type of stuff? So you're charging a dollar a month. You also make a nice commission if somebody was to use one of those products, but you're going from $1 to $8, So $12 to $100, but you're adding something to the service, which is this new concierge that will talk to somebody on the phone or over chat? It's actually, yeah, through text. So we're not even in the app.

It's going to be like texting directly. So that was the feedback we got is when they're laying in bed freaking out at night about their debt, they can just whip out their phone and text us. Great. Awesome. So that means the product could exist just as a text product. It could. So how is the response from the investment community? What bucket do they put you in? I would assume you're still trying to get product market fit.

You're changing the pricing. So venture capitals who are looking for a business that has really tight product market fit and is ready to scale and has 10,000 members. Yeah, no problem. But you're in that sort of in-between zone, I would say, as a tweener. How are seed funds? How are angels embracing the product now? And what has your experience been raising money?

It's been really good. we actually kind of latched on to another fintech company who we kind of considered selling to, and in the end, they're going to fund our round. And so it worked out really well. So we were really early for most. Yes. So there's another fund, another product that you can do a strategic partnership with.

I'll leave it at that. And maybe we'll fund. And the strategic will have a small amount of the ownership, I'm sure. Exactly right. Yep. Fantastic. Because that's always the concern is, do they get any right? or not in your round.

And you got to be very careful about that when you let the fox in the henhouse, as it were. You're going to be careful that they don't see data. That would then let them replicate the product, right? Right. Or something. Right. Because that's always their motivation.

Absolutely fantastic. So let's bring all three founders back for a second here. I'll just go around the horn now. You came to the accelerator for 16 weeks and you got to learn from each other. What did you learn? And this is like one of the great parts about being part of an accelerator, I think, or that I hear back. obviously we introduce you to people.

Obviously, we talk about growth and help you with pitching and answering questions. Put all that aside for a second. I'm curious if you learn something from other founders in your cohort or being part of our founder Slack where we have 200 founders, 300 founders talking all day long. So just going around the horn, what did you learn from other founders? Have your fundraising plan together. As a first-time founder, I think, you know, amongst several other first-time founders, you don't know how to do a lot of things.

And that was how we started. We didn't really know how fundraising worked. So I got a lot of feedback from our cohort members on, you know, what normal looks like. If you have a plan, things tend to go better than not having a plan and hope is not a plan. That's right. And the plan we teach people very specifically is to start with a, it's like basically a basic sales plan. Hey, have two or 300 targets, you know, get introductions to them, get those emails out. Probably have to email them three or four times.

you're thinking about a long-term tenure relationship with the investment community because you may go out and fundraise multiple times and you may start multiple companies as a founder so you're really going to play that long game and then knowing how to emailing and knowing what to email them it's really a great answer I think I think most people think you have to meet 20 investors to find an investor and I actually think it's kind of need to add a zero to that expectation how many investors have you pitched and then how many have you done one-on-one meetings with if you look back over the past year. Yeah, lots. I think I'm probably in the 100 and something range. Amazing. In terms of one-on-one meetings with. Yeah.

Fantastic. Okay. Thanks for that. Oliver. Aaron, what did you learn most in the accelerator from not me, not my team, but from your co-founders in the accelerator? Yeah. How to best answer questions? We did a lot of talking through. you get a tough question from an investor, how do you share what's going well and be, you know, very transparent and truthful about the business that you're building, but keep them interested, you know, and do it in a way that's compelling and succinct. I loved the when we were able to ping pong about that after one of the sessions of pitching together. Yeah. Answering questions concisely will build your credibility. We talk about this a lot as a concept and give you more

time to get more questions, specifically in the format of an accelerator, where you might be limited to two or three minutes of questions, but also even in a meeting with a VC over coffee or at their office, the more concise you are, the better. And what people do is they get a little nervous, don't they? People ask them like, hey, how many paid customers you have? And you're like, well, you know, I was born on a farm and I walked to school two miles and there was snow and it was a hill and my math teacher talking. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was looking for a number, not your autobiography. And the same thing holds true for when I get emails.

I mean, I get emails sometimes. And I just see that there's no links, no charts, and it's a thousand words. I'm like, I got to read a book for an interview next week on the podcast. I don't have time to read this email. Short email, concise, some charts. Same thing with your answers. Tight is right. Okay, Amber, what did you learn from your classmates?

It is not an exaggeration to say I literally learned everything. Like, I was probably the greenest, newest, newbie, new to like the entrepreneur. entrepreneur investor world ever and like how how to make my business plan better what my business model was honestly everything how to interact with investors how to talk up your company for what it is but not sounds like a tool for lack of a better word um everything it was an amazing experience for me absolutely fantastic well listen it's great to be in business with you and i hope you guys really have success with the investment community i hope we did a good job helping you just you know, get that little catalyst, that little acceleration is the goal here.

But ultimately, you got to run these companies. It's up to you to make it happen. And so it was a great success for the people who are watching. You have the URLs. We'll throw them back on the screen here. The best thing you can do to help a founder is to try their product, the payback app.com, the payback app.com. Go ahead and try that.

Go to shopwarewell.com. Try that. Sign up for a membership. And, of course, if you are, have any customer support, email your customer support team right now. Just say, hey, check out support trends.com. And that's one T in support trends, S-U-P-P-P-O-R-E-N-D-S dot com. Support Trends.

Always a tough decision to make. Do you put the extra T in there when you have two? Like, well, domains are available. But support trends.com. I think two T's redirects for us. Oh, does it? Okay, fantastic. All right, well done, everybody.