This Week in Startups - Playstation's $3.2B Bungie acquisition, Metafy gaming tutoring, Shopify CEO joins Coinbase Board of Directors | E1375

Episode Date: February 2, 2022

Another big news drop in the gaming space! Jason and Molly discuss Sony is acquiring Bungie for $3.6B (2:36). We break down what this means for Sony, Bungie’s crazy history, and if other big tech giants should look for M&A targets in gaming. Then, we talk about our startup of the day called Metafy which allows pro gamers to do 1-on-1 teaching, online for hourly rates (29:38). Finally we wrap with Shopify CEO Tobi Lütke joining Coinbase’s board (48:33). (00:00) Jason & Molly tee up the topics, Sony's big acquisition, Metafy (02:36) Sony is acquiring Bungie for $3.6B & Bungie history (10:41) Boast - Get your R&D tax credits without the hassle at https://boast.ai/twist (11:58) Other big tech giants should look for M&A targets in gaming (19:46) OpenPhone - Get an extra 20% off any plan for your first 6 months at https://openphone.com/twist (21:27) Current console pricing and Big Tech competition (29:38) Startup of the day - Metafy is company where pro gamers to do 1-on-1 teaching online for hourly rates (32:07) RealGoodFoods - Go to https://realgoodfoods.com and use code TWIST for $15 off! (33:39) Breaking down Metafy's raise and investment terms (42:11) Jason explains how Blayze is another example of pro-coaching for athletic training (48:33) Shopify CEO Tobi Lutke joining Coinbase’s board (01:10:11) Learn what's going on at TWIST FOLLOW Jason: https://linktr.ee/calacanis FOLLOW Molly: https://twitter.com/mollywood

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. We're doing news again today because there's another big news drop in the gaming space. Big news. Bungee makes Destiny. They were the original creators of Halo, which is now owned by Microsoft. Microsoft, as you know, recently bought Activision Blizzard. What is Sony going to do? Oh, no. By Bungee, but not Halo. So we're going to break down a little bit what this means for Sony, what it means for the gaming industry at large, this weird interconnected web of gaming studios, how they work together. and if other big tech giants should look for M&A targets in gaming. And then we're going to talk about our startup of the day. It's called Metafy, and they allow pro gamers to teach newbies one-on-one for an hourly rate. It's very similar to a portfolio company that we'll talk about as well called Blaze that does something similar for athletic training. So it's never been a better time to be a creator. And we talk about the entire creator economy.

And basically this new Mindici effect we're seeing where people can work. from home, make a podcast, be a creator, be on Twitch, and make tons of money or enough to not go to work. It is a great world. And then finally, we wrap with Shopify CEO, Toby Lukie, joining Coinbase's board as Coinbase continues to basically staff up for, I don't know, world domination. And, and there are so many interviews coming this week. It's going to be a blockbuster week for this week in startups.

It's going to be a great show today. Stick with us. Stick with us. Yes. This Week in Startups is brought to you by Boast. If you're a startup developing new software or R&D, you may be owed up to $250,000 in cashback from the government. Boast helps you get that money quickly and easily, and the first 50 customers will get 10%

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ingredients. Go to real goodfoods.com and use code Twist for 15% off. All right, everybody, let's get to the news. There is a lot of it. More news in the world of gaming. This was actually breaking during the Monday show and we just could not get to it for obvious reasons. So much news. Uh-huh. But in video game acquisition tit for tat, Sony announced yesterday that it's going to acquire video game developer Bungy for $3.6 billion. Bungee, of course, creators of the popular first-person shooter, Destiny, the original makers of Halo, but I am sorry to say,

because Halo is my game. I actually got very excited about this and was like, good job, but I had forgotten that, like, Halo is actually with Microsoft, which we'll get to later. They don't get Halo, but they do get Destiny.

How do we feel about this as a counter to Microsoft's Activision Blizzard purchase? Yeah, I mean, I am not a console gamer. I'm a desktop gamer, and I play real-time strategy like StarCraft and Age of Empires, old school, like, oh, I only play games that are 10, 20 years old, and I only play them once in a while. But, hey, Lo, for me. Yeah, same.

Yeah, I think, yeah, kind of similar here. So this does seem to be in the best interest of consumers, which is to say, I love the full stack of you buy this, you know, piece of hardware, you buy a subscription, and they just keep adding stuff to it. And so I think if this means, when you buy your console and you get your Netflix style, Amazon Prime style subscription, you get more content. Great. I mean,

it does make you wonder if these are going to be platform exclusives going forward or if Microsoft and Sony will take the approach that Microsoft had, which is like, we'll make Office for Mac, we'll make it for PC, we'll make it for Android. And, you know, Steve Bomber tried to stop or I guess he held back,

Office for iOS and Office for iOS, and Office for Android so that they could try to do their own operating system. And Satya Nadell, I guess coming on the show soon. Definitely. He released Office on Android and iOS, and I believe Microsoft Office is one of the top apps, you know, or some of the top apps in productivity. So I hope that they make these cross-platform and they keep making it for PC and, you know, for the other person's platform.

But it seems like it's in the best interest of consumers. So Microsoft did say, I think it is especially this exclusive thing. And you know, my feeling on this is that while I don't think the FTC would necessarily put a stop to these acquisitions, I think they would have some questions. And so Microsoft has already come out and Bungy has already come out saying, we're not going to make the Activision Blizzard Games, Microsoft said, exclusive. Bungee said they will not be making destiny, platform exclusive. So I think that is great. But there is going to most likely be some value ad that you get for subscribing to, you know, Microsoft GamePass and whatever the Xbox thing is called now, I think, or PlayStation. Is it just still PlayStation Live?

Like, I would imagine they're going to use this to leverage some benefit. But it is, it's interesting as a counter. My brother, who is the actual gamer in the family, I'm like still a relatively casual Halo and Tetris kind of gamer, said, though, that he thought if Sony really wanted to kill. Xbox, they should have bought a EA. Yeah. That while Destiny's a big deal, it's no call of duty, and it might not have gotten them

all the way to unstoppable. And electronic arts is still independent. Yep. And they're too big to be bought. I mean, Sony has the cash. We did the back of the envelope math over text yesterday. Sony has the cash to do it. That one, I do wonder, though,

if it might not be too big to chew off or like big enough that they were worried about you know, some Snoopy DOJ. Actually, it's $36 billion. Yeah. It's the market cap today. It's down 2% today. It looks like the stock price has not changed in five years.

It's basically traded in a range of $80 to $140. So it's basically trading at the top end of its range. Hasn't changed much. I think they're a target. Yeah, it feels like a target to me. I wonder if like Google or Facebook or, you know, Amazon or Netflix bought electronic arts, how that would shake things up. You know, Amazon's got a ton of money.

Netflix has a ton of money. Netflix could absorb it and then get into the gaming business. And when you buy Netflix, you get all the EA stuff. Would that be a good move? I mean, I wonder why Apple and Netflix have stayed away from games to the extent that they have. Particularly when Apple's making this M1 chip that could be running games. Like, I don't really know why they have not embraced this industry at all. And I don't know.

Probably because they want to stay neutral and have an app store. and just take a 30% of everything. Right, exactly. And so then they've got that economic reason, although they are now making their own content, right, with Apple TV. So it seems like they're maybe inching closer and, like, take advantage of this hardware. They're dipping their time, right?

Apple TV. Mm-hmm. What do we call Apple TV? Because I have Apple TV as the hardware device. And then I've watched shows on Apple TV like Ted Lasso. They're just Plus, right? Apple TV Plus is the name of the service or something? I don't really know.

Yeah. Not good at naming. And then in terms of Netflix, like, they've sort of maybe dabbled here and there in gaming, but never really gone there. I don't, and maybe it was bandwidth constraints initially, right? Initially, it was probably just like, we don't want that streaming burden. We already pay enough. Yeah. But I would think now it wouldn't be such a big deal.

I don't really know. But Netflix has just not seemed interested in that market. And I think it's interesting. Honestly, I think as they start to continue to face the headwinds from HBO and Disney Plus, that we've talked about so much and Apple and other streaming services, maybe it'll start to look more attractive. Yeah, I mean, also Google has this,

is it Stadia, stadia? I thought that died. I think they already, did they kill that already? Google does not. Like, Google keeps trying. Never early adopts. And they have something called like play game services, like a subscription service.

And I have Apple games as a subscription service, which when you have kids is pretty cool. Mm-hmm. Because when they go to the app store, it says Apple Arcade. and all of those games have the ads and the mana and the upselling for coins taken out of them. And so I just tell my girls, listen,

you can have anything in the arcade. I think I'm wrong about Google Stadia. It does seem that it still exists. Stadia Pro, according to Forbes, five days ago, has a stronger lineup of games in February than PS Plus. It was maybe that article that made PlayStation go by Bunchy. Yeah, and it's, I think it's Android-based, and they have their own, is it a hardware device?

now or no? I think so. There's also a piece about a clear stadia controller selling for $370 on eBay. Huh. I know there's a controller. I wonder if they actually have a con.

I don't think they have a console. They don't have a console. It's streaming. It's just, yeah, it's streaming. So their bet is that you can stream the stuff from the cloud and put the CPU on the cloud and bandwidth will be good enough. Hmm.

Yeah. Electronigarch has to be in play, right? I would think, especially now, right? As of yesterday, I would think if EA is not in play, I don't know why. And they're doing good content too. They have a friend who is a video producer there who did that show that won a bunch of awards, the one about the Sims. So they're dipping a toe into TV and other content production as well.

Yeah, I mean, they have the Sims, Command and Conquer, Mass Effect, Madden. All of their sports stuff is really strong. I'm not a big gamer. You know, you have kids. It becomes kind of hard to. There's only so much time. people. Well, yeah. I mean, it's like when you get, when I play one of these like real time strategy games, like a match can take half an hour, an hour. And it's like, unless everybody's asleep in the

house and I'm up, I can't do it, right? It just doesn't feel about it. I mean, you think you can lose time quickly on TikTok? Try Halo. Like, you sit down. You could have a 12-hour session. Yeah. And then boom, it's two hours later. And you're like, oh, no, no children have eaten. If you're a startup developing new software or investing in R&D, you may be owed up to a quarter million dollars, $250,000 in cash back from the government. But the R&D tax credit program is very complicated. That's why most people don't take advantage of it. It requires a bunch of technical and financial justifications for the IRS. And that's where Boast can help. Boast is a platform that helps startups get cash back from the government. They integrate with over 60 different

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The first 50 customer signups will get 10% off their first year filing. Just mention the promo coach twist. Anyway, I think EA is in play. I don't know who would buy them. I'm curious about why Netflix has not gone that route at this point with streaming games. But I guess EA, it wouldn't be a good acquisition for them because EA doesn't do a lot of streaming games. They're still console base. And this is a de minimis acquisition.

You know, Sony's worth $140 billion. and this is 3.6 billion, you know, it's like 1% of the company, and it's a game changer. Netflix does have, like a Stranger Things game. They're kind of dabbling in taking their IP and making little games out of it

that don't exist inside the Netflix app, I think. I think they link you to an app store. So, yeah, I mean, I think Netflix is going to wind up having, they're clearly thinking about IP with the stuff they're building as opposed to licensing IP.

So making games is a way, to kind of pull people into that. And I saw Lucasart launched like three Star Wars games in the same day. So, you know, Disney is really going for it with their gaming stuff. So it's a, it's a no-brainer. Get somebody, yeah. Let's start. Like we need a, we need a clock, you know, like a countdown.

Yeah. Like an acquisition timer for EA at this point. Who is it going to be? This has got to be a great thing for independent video game studios. Because as these get acquired, you've got to think. the top people at these companies are going to be like, you know what, we made our money, we had stock options, whatever, let's go start our own little game studio. And so when people see acquisitions and they think that's bad for the industry, what they don't realize is the talented

people, when these companies get bought, they get so much money that they then have a life choice. Do I want to work at Microsoft or Sony? Or do I want to go be a pirate again and be a rebel and, you know, start a company? So I think what you'll see is a lot of people who are super talented leave these big flagship and start the next generation of flagship. So it'll actually wind up being a very vibrant ecosystem, just like all the Google folks left to start the next generation of companies. And now we'll see Airbnb and Uber executives leaving to create the next generation of companies and so on and so on.

That's a great point. I had not thought of it that way at all. I definitely was like, oh, these companies are so big that they're going to push all the little studios out. But you make a great point about just sort of the turn in the industry itself. I mean, granted, that doesn't welcome a ton of newcomers necessarily. But it does at least keep the cycle of competition going. It makes people rich who then have, you know, whatever, five, ten, $50 million in their bank account from those sales.

And they're like, okay, I don't find meaning being this many steps from the decision maker. Right. So if you were at Bungy or you were at Blizzard Activision, you might be two or three desks away from or levels away from the decision maker. Yeah. Then you get bought and now you're like six. or seven, you know, and you're like a unit within a unit, within a unit, and, you know, within a giant company. And you're like, okay, well, I've got this money sitting in the bank, and there's four or five other people who do too. We don't need to make a salary for the next

three or four years. Let's go start our own company. And then you go to investors and they're like, oh, you don't, you've, you've already built your prototype because you funded it yourself. Great. Yeah, here's 10 million. Go for it. So it's going to be, I think it's going to be great for the industry. Any other notes on this deal? I mean, I think the, the only other thing is just sort of fun, which is the fascinating intertwining, like how nepotistic this industry is. And then Bungee itself and what a weird ownership history it's had, especially when you consider kind of the all the Halo drama,

right, which is that in 2000, Microsoft got the exclusive rights to Halo, made it an exclusive. It became this huge hit. Yeah. Kept on failing to make the movie. That was so weird. Yeah. And then Bungee in 2007 splits from Microsoft

becomes its own privately held company, called Bungee and then independent bungee signed a long-term contract with Activision to publish Destiny. Yeah. And sounds like the Marvel IP.

Keep going. It totally is. Like you need a PhD to understand all the different ways that these companies are connected. But I bring that up partly because it's super interesting and it's really dishy and there was a really

funny tweet about it. But also it completely validates your point about all these people who know each other who have worked together in some way for years who built these games together and they were at this company and this company, but it was still the same company and whatever, who you know are going to want to split off

and make something new. Great. Yeah. So I guess we'll be waiting for the announcement that Sony spins out Bungy at some point. That's like the next, the end game. That's what, yeah, there's time. Blizzard has spun out for Microsoft

to be its own independent because they weren't getting anything done internally. Well, and when those things happen, what typically happens is whoever did the acquisition then retired, So somebody at Sony retires, somebody at Microsoft retires. So let's say Satya leaves Microsoft 10 years from now. Somebody else comes in.

You know what this gaming thing? These units aren't working. Somebody in the unit lobbies them, hey, can we have our company back? Can we spend it out? And they're like, yeah, sure. This isn't a priority for me. I'm focusing the company on these three things. And this is the fifth priority.

So sure, you can leave. So that's how these things wind up going is when the top level person leaves. They didn't anoint this deal. It wasn't their deal. They don't want to be defined by it. and getting it out of the company becomes like a statement in and of itself, right? Like, we're not doing this anymore,

which is what happens to when a movie studio flips over, whoever the previous person running the movie studio or the TV network looks at all the things in production and they're like, my name's not on these things. And I have a certain number of slots and bullets that I can fire. I'm not going to take the old guard and make them famous for the show, cancel all that stuff.

Or put it in permanent, hiatus. So another studio can't do it and make us look bad, but we're not going to do it because I want to promote my projects. That's what they call production hell in Hollywood. I don't know if that happens in startups. The other and then the final business point or business question I have is whether these acquisitions actually signal a little bit of weakness in console gaming, because PC gaming has really been on the rise. And we talked about like the kids are playing Minecraft, I think Fortnite, although it was also on console, I believe, brought a lot of kids to PC gaming.

And so we polled our live audience on YouTube and asked what console they own. None was 43%. 43% of our audience at least owns no console. 30% of them own PlayStation, 12% own Xbox, 12% own Nintendo Switch. It was 155 votes. Interesting. But just that one tiny data point did make. me wonder if they get, if, you know, Sony and Microsoft are trying to shore up their libraries

to make their consoles more appealing. Yeah, and I, you have so many other entertainment options and gaming options. I bet you if we put in here, do you do, do you do PC gaming, right? Because we asked about consoles. Right. PC gaming is another interesting one because I think everybody, I bet you are audience, business audience, maybe an, a skewing older audience is just really into PC gaming. Yeah.

I feel like the really serious people are into PC gaming. gaming and having a keyboard as opposed to a console controller. But maybe I'm wrong. I think about it now, like internet access, like, internet's gotten faster for a lot of people, you know, even Xfinity, which is evil in a million ways just keeps making the speeds faster, right? So the streaming, if you have broadband internet access, is a lot more possible than it used to be.

TVs can do so much, like you can do so much casual game streaming through a television with casting or other technologies. And it does make me wonder, if making the investment in a console is still worth it, although we did just buy the new Xbox. So listen, lots of founders are Lucy Goosey with their personal phone numbers. They put it on company documents,

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Oh, you did buy the new Xbox? Yeah. What do these things go for now? Are they 500 bucks or something? I wanted Halo. No, I mean, the new one whose name I can't even remember, it's like the Xbox X and the X-plus is, um, it was like 300 bucks. Oh, that's pretty affordable. Yeah, it was, it was inexpensive. It was enough to be like,

let's go to Best Buy and get it. I want Halo. I bought my wife a new iPhone max, and I was like, I'm going to get her to the largest memory because, you know, because I do tech support. Right. You know, I would say about $9,000. Come on, Apple. $1,500. I was like, what? I was like, I think that, I was like, did I put two in the basket by accident. I literally thought for a second, did I put two of them in there or something? And it was 1499 or 1599 for the two terabyte or maybe it was one terabyte. And because I would say a third of problems when I do tech support are memory, a third are connectivity and a third or other, you know, like rebooting memory, whatever errors. I mean, I'm holding on to my iPhone with my cold

dead hands at this point. Like, I'm not. How old is yours? That is absurd. I mean, I'm on the 12. I have the iPhone 12 mini. But I'm like, I'll replace that. I'm to the point now where, I mean, it is It is not an easy, like an impulse. You know, you're not just going to upgrade because it's about $700 and that's what you paid before, which was already absurd. But at least you're used to paying it. Now I'm like, I'll replace the freaking battery in this thing. I'm calling the genius bar because the Bluetooth won't work. Like, it's not a mindless.

I agree with you now. Like, I used to always tell everybody, like, listen, it's a thousand bucks. It's $800. You trade it in. You get half the money back. I would literally get the newest one every year. And I would be like, listen, it's a, if it's, if it's, if it's, if it's, it's, It's $900, and I'm getting $400 back.

It's $500 a year for a phone. It's a buck $50 a day. I'm on this thing a couple hours a day. It's worth it to have the best one. And listen, I'm in the tech business. I need to be on the best one. Yeah. I agree.

I'm now looking at it going, uh, maybe I get six more months out of this and it's not $4 a day. Yeah. Because I now were at like, if you were, if you were to get $500 back and it was $1,000 and you replace it every year, it's $3 and change a day, or maybe it's $3 a day. It's a pretty good deal.

But. And when it's, starts to be $1,500 and also you start to consider, like, if you like me have started to have a little more awareness of the impact on the environment every time you get rid of a phone, I mean, at least now they're taking them back and they might recycle them. But every time I buy a new one, that's a phone they have to make with cobalt and nickel and rare earth. You know, it's like a lot of materials go into that that aren't, like, I don't mean to be environmental buzzkill over here, but it, but those two considerations together have definitely made me pause a lot more.

I, and you know what? It sounds silly as well, but I'm also like, And these goddamn boxes, like, why Apple do I have to get a giant, expensive paper, plastic, wrap box? I don't care about the unboxing experience. Right. Like, literally, they should just come in a little sleeve that protects it made out of paper. They should have 50 of them stacked at a tiny box. And forget about these goddamn boxes, everybody. So true.

I know that Steve Jobs. Especially if I pick it up, just put in a paper bag, man. Yeah, we're done here. Like, just hand it to me. I don't need my toothpaste. is in a tube. And I don't need a box around it with plastic around that. Every single part of it has plastic around it.

Every part. Like, come on. I know. And the packaging situation with Apple in particular is like at this point, like, come on. No. You know what? And Apple's so full of BS because they're like, oh, and by the way, I'm Tim Cook on the roof of this $6 billion building.

We just did something for you. We're not giving you a charger anymore because we know you have one. It's better for the environment. And I'm like, but you're still putting it in a giant freaking box wrapped in plastic, wrapped in plastic inside with layers. And like, who wants the manual? Have you ever looked at any of the paperwork in your phone? No. Right in the garbage.

They all do the same thing. You transfer it with the information. It's an identical phone. Like, come on. It's so dumb. They should literally, this is a message to Tim Cook. Two types of ordering. You can order unboxed and you get $10 in credits in the app store.

box, you don't get the $10. Love it. Now you're, it's costing you seven. That $7 goes to app developers. Just give me a $10 credit on my phone for some app store stuff. And we're good. And the same thing is for app. I don't know if you started doing this on Amazon.

Did you say you could pick a prime day? You can pick a delivery day and then you get a credit. Yes. No, no, no, no, no. There's that, which is like bundle it and they'll give you a dollar, in like digital credits, there's another thing they're doing, which is called Prime Day.

You pick what day of the week, you want to get a big box from Amazon. And everything you order gets bundled by default into that box. Kind of cool. That's good. I like that. Yeah, because the,

when I have too many boxes. Yeah. It's really, I mean, it's really interesting. There's just, there's been this rising conversation about the idea of circularity, a circular economy,

which is how does stuff go back in, right? Like, does it get recycled at the end of life? Is there a way to dispose of it that doesn't make me feel like an asshole as a consumer? And what's driving that, obviously, is like, sure, money and packaging is a hugely, like, cost intensive part of production, but also consumers like us being like, hey, it's crappy customer service. If you leave me with a pile of trash that fills up my tiny little California can or that I can't recycle, which is unacceptable, I just think it's so interesting as a consumer proposition

for us to be like everybody has to do my move this is my move this is my little silent protest I've been doing for years I go to the apps Apple store yeah I buy whatever I'm going to get I unbox it in the store

I put the entire MacBook detrius there I unpack my iPhone I leave it on the counter and the person's like oh you forgot your box I'm like no I didn't And I'm like, you could throw that away.

I don't need it. And I leave it there. That is so smart. It is such a power move. Because everyone do this. They don't know what to do. So here is your protest, everybody. So good.

That's so good. Every time you go to the Apple store, I want you to unbox everything. And if you bought six things, unbox all six things, because they love that place to be clean. And leave it all over them. You know, like put it where the watches are. Because that's a beautiful stand. You know, when the watches laid out. I just cover everything.

And all that, all that trashy little plastic, just like, we're on. It's so good. Yes, a little film, that the film on the camera,

the, you know, I do this literally every time. They look at me like I'm crazy. They're like, oh, okay. Oh,

that's incredible. So I chose violence. Yep. That's my own little social protest. It's freaking beautiful. Freakin beautiful. It does work. It literally works.

It's all, look, consumers still have a lot of power. And this is, you got to use it every way you can to make this stuff. However, I will say that the chat pointed out that there are laws, I believe. Maybe not everywhere.

I lost this comment because it's going so fast. That say that Josh Galt says it's law that a manual has to accompany an electronic device. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. But it could still be that they could get out of all the other packaging. They give you the option. I like the option. Would you like frustration-free packaging?

What would you like to be frustrated? would you like the packaging? So when you go to the store for the most popular items, they should just hand it to you. And I love the idea of like a little paper, easy to rip. You open it up and your unboxing is the experience of like opening up a chocolate bar. Make it like opening up a golden ticket chocolate bar. Yeah.

Because you know Apple can make it pretty. They can come up with a way to make it beautiful and it makes it feel good. Make it that paper that dissolves in water. or the sound, the nice crisp sound of ripping, you know, nice parchment paper. Yes. That would be so nice, Tim Cook. Yeah. You know, we got a startup of the week.

The show is this week in startups. We talk about all these big companies, but I said to the production team and our producers, get us some startups. So they found a great startup. I am fascinated by this one. Let me tee it up for you, Molly. We have a startup of the day, and we're going to try to do this every day. It wouldn't succeed, but if we can do it three or four days a week, that'd be great.

So this startup is called Metafi, M-E-T-A-F-Y. And they do live coaching, not for math, not for race car driving or tennis or golf. We've seen those things before. What they're doing is one-on-one live coaching for video games, which I need because, you know, I am trying to get better at some of these new games and I don't want to play Fortnite and then with one of my nephews or nieces or something get demolished, I would pay 50 bucks, 25 bucks an hour to have somebody just level me up very quickly. So they connect gaming coaches to those who want to learn how to get better with games like StarCraft all the way to sports

betting, which is super cool. I am going to get StarCraft to coaching. I am signing up for this and I can't wait to because I only play Protas. I don't play any of the other ones. I don't read the manual. I just have a good time. And I stay in the Silver League and I'm happy. But they make money by charging students a 5% fee, not by taking a cut of the coach's income, which is kind of nice. Interesting. Well, and also that incentivizes, I mean, they're talking about getting coaching from pro gamers. So there's that benefit, too, which is like you can sign up to literally see the person that you watch in an e-sports tournament maybe coach you. That's a big deal in, you know, certain communities who are really, really, really, really into gaming and literally know the names of e-sports players, which, you know, I shouldn't laugh.

I mean, a lot of us know the name of, I mean, we all know Ninja. Like, there's some that everybody knows, dream. This, before I get to this actual startup, though, this made me think of another reason why, A, you would want to do this and why PC gaming, I think, has been on the rise, and that is streaming. So everybody wants to be Twitch streaming, and it's so much easier on a PC than it is on a console. and so I think that that has probably also driven people to PC gaming and also would drive them to want to do this because when you're streaming, if you're streaming onto YouTube or you're streaming on to Twitch,

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At Real Good Foods. Great job, Real Good Foods. Really enjoyed the product. This is a very significant raise. They're calling it a series A, $25 million. It was led by Tiger Global. So that means I would put the value of this company at a 125 million after the 25 million was put in.

So the 100, this is my guess. I don't know the valuation. But if it's a series A, the investors probably want to own 20%. So 25 million, 20%, you know, would be $125 million total value. So 100 pre, companies worth $100 million. You put the $25 million in. Now the company has $25 million in their bank account. The value of the company, $100, the value of the $25 million, still $25 million.

$125 million, is what I'm going to guess. Alexis O'Hanney. A friend of the pod, co-founder of Reddit, co-founder of initialized capital, who now has his own firm called 776, was also, I guess, leading the round with Tiger, according to our notes. A lot of angel investors in there, like our friend Naval, from Angelus, Steve Galanis, from Cameo, who's been on the pod. They're putting a million dollars toward a fund that will invest over the next 24 months

into tournaments and stuff like that. So that's great. Josh Fabian is the founder. And here's a quote from CrunchBase. I guess CrunchBase now competes with TechCrunch to cover startups. It's kind of funny. They spun CrunchBase out of TechCrunch. I've been pretty honest about how I feel about Venture Capital.

And generally, it's not good. Tiger gives me access to capital and they stay the bleep out of my way. So I guess this is part of the whole anti-venture capital, which is kind of silly, be honest. like venture capitalists are overwhelmingly supportive and awesome. And so, you know, for the bad behavior by venture capital is like less than 10%. I would argue, actually, since I've been on both sides of the table, that I would say bad behavior by founders, slightly more than bad behavior by venture capitalists. Yeah, yeah.

On a percentage basis. I mean, look, it seems to me I could understand why in a hot market, a super competitive market where you're like, I can raise money this way or that way or that way or a Dow or this or that like there's there's increasing, it seems to me that there is increasing resentment about the idea of the ownership, right, taking ownership in the company. Which like, okay, when the market crashes and there's no other way to make money, like you'll, you know, to me this is this peak market behavior is a side effect of. Yes. And also the idea that that startup founders feel like they have been pushed to make business decisions that

might not have otherwise made so that the venture capitalists can get these big returns. Yes. These are all true statements. And the year of end. Word of the year, 2022. But here's the thing. You're absolutely right. This is peak market behavior.

When people either raise out high levels are nagging venture capitalists or generally blowing through money, you know, like drunken sailors, it's a peak market. and, you know, this kind of entitlement, you know, in Josh's statement here, I'm not saying he's an entitled person, but it's a little obnoxious as a comment and a little, it sounds a little entitled. It's kind of a bad look. You know, if he needs money, he's certainly going to go to venture capitalists to get it, like if the company needed to get a bridge or something. But here's the truth. If you really don't like venture capitalists and you don't like going fast and you like going slow and methodical, build off revenue. You build a bootstrap business. That is an option. Our friend Alex who had a really good appearance last week. Alex is great. At Alex.

Yeah. He tweeted a Metify raise $25 million. Cool company. Would have loved it when I was less okay with being terrible at games. Yeah, that is true. It makes childhood me happy that games are no longer this thing that only we nerds do, but something that everyone can enjoy. 100% agree.

I think that's totally true. And also, I would say, I think there's a bigger business story here, too, that we shouldn't forget. Like, this isn't just about making people able to have more fun when they're playing games. Like, let's go back to the part where this company is also going to put this capital to invest into competitive tournaments and other gaming community events. This is about creating future creators, right? It's about growing the entire streaming gaming ecosystem so that these people who are learning how to play games better from pro. can become pros or at least that is the promise right off of of and that that is what like if i were looking at this i'd be like well that's cool you can learn how to be a better gamer but like how

are you going to make a billion dollars see i'm learning yeah the way you make a billion dollars is that you start to create a bigger and bigger and bigger gaming ecosystem yeah so that more people want to do this you grow the pie but this is this is actually fundamentally a gaming and a creator economy story i think absolutely yes that is the dream for a lot of young folks they want to be YouTubers, they want to be Mr. Beast or they want to be ninja. They want to be able to make money off of this. And let's face it, even if you make but, you know, three or four thousand dollars a month, it's enough if you are living not in a major city to sustainably live by playing games. And, you know, when we talk about, oh, what are people going to do for a living? The fact that there are

so many streamers or people on cameo or people on YouTube or people doing podcasts that are making enough money to survive. It's almost like the Mindici family, you know, in Florence. Like we have this new Mindici kind of effect where people are able to do art, be able to pursue their passion, whether it's a podcast, or being a TikTok, entertain a comedian, somebody who does impersonations,

somebody who does video games and streaming, and you can kind of make enough to exist as that artist. And that's pretty cool, isn't it? That actually is such a nice way to put it. Like, it really, we're like, there are patrons. I mean, that's the idea that Patreon is built on. But also, there are patrons that come in all kinds of different forms. And it's, I mean, you look at like, China actually has perfected and really advanced this kind of digital creator economy with purchasing digital goods, giving gifts, you know, tipping creators and live streamers.

And I do think that it is just becoming bigger and bigger. And it is kind of a nice way to look at it that like, yeah, there are. lots of ways for you to have a job that might not have traditionally been considered a job. And these streamers aren't just in some cases making a pretty good living. Like, they're making a lot. Remember when there was the Twitch hack and all of the

salaries were leaked? Like the amounts that you were making six figures. Like, they're making more than they would if they had a law degree. Several are making, I'd say, at least 10 or 15 are making seven figures. Yeah. I mean, so even just taking those out, you know, you start to have this like, you know how they talk about the

long tail? Yeah. I think there's like this fat middle that's emerging, right? And the fat middle is like, I don't need to get a job. And the long tail is, I have spending money and the top fat part of the tail, you know, the, oh, the, yeah, the top of the tail is people who are like, you know, millionaires. But I just think they were increasingly making this middle part that is, you know, okay, yeah, I have enough money to live doing this. It's pretty freaking compelling, I have to say. And I really, and also, next time you're on a podcast, where someone is talking about how people just don't want to work anymore. The fact is, people have a lot of options to work in a lot of better ways that are very fulfilling.

I mean, the comparison to the, I think it's the Medici's in Italy, but that comparison is really apt. If you can do this as opposed to getting yelled at in a restaurant behind a counter or driving a truck, you're going to do this. And increasingly, that's going to be an option, but it's not going to show up in the jobs report. It's not going to show up as employment. I don't think OnlyFans is showing up in the jobs report. or Twitch streamers, right? You know, putting all judgments aside of how you feel about adult workers or whatever.

But, you know, if you just look at it, you're right that those don't show up. And, you know, these folks could also maybe do DoorDash two days a week and make some money from that and do streaming for three days a week. All of these put pressure on the people who have arduous jobs to pay a fair price for the pain of having to pack boxes at an Amazon,

warehouse every day and or like you're saying having a a bad boss and that's good for the economy we have an investment in a company i'll just give a shout out to them blaze bL a y z e dot i we can pull it up on the screen and they're doing one-on-one coaching not for video games uh but this will blow your mind uh they're doing they have coaches now uh across soccer basketball you know carding motorcycle car racing all these different things and what's great about it is you know when I met the founder, car racing is extremely expensive. Car racing is like, you know, $5,000 to have somebody go out with you for the weekend and make you better at. But you can videotape, you're videotaping your car racing anyway.

They can give you tips for, you know, whatever, $200. And they can draw on the video and you kind of get it like email, you know, asynchronously. And the person who's the coach doesn't have to drive to your, you know, racetrack, spend a week with you. So there's kind of like, this is happening all over the place. I mean, I just think that we are so everybody, we're like right now, our society is like proto, Neo in the Matrix, right? Like we are so close to be, because if you need to know something at this point, that thing is on YouTube or that thing is on a coaching app.

Like we're all just, I mean, we talk about the future of work and I think actually that our startup of the day, Metify, that's an investment in the future of work, even though it sounds like a video game startup. Yeah. But the future of education is what we should really be talking about because like, what are you going to learn at school at this point when you can practically jack in to the back of your head? I know Kung Fu.

Yeah. I mean, it literally is like that. Anytime I have a problem with a device, I don't even like when I was just unpacking a humidifier because it's up in the mountains and it's dry air. And I was like, okay, I'm going to try to set this up just, you know, by looking at it. And then I was just like, I typed the name of the company, you know, set up on YouTube. Boom, there's a video. I go to that video.

I put it on 2X speed, which you can do that now on YouTube, and I just watch this person set it up while I set up. I didn't even look at the manual. And then you have a problem with your dishwasher or whatever device it is. You just type it into YouTube. Somebody has made a video

where they were frustrated by something, spent two hours, figured it out, and then they shared it in 90 seconds. And now you're done. It's so great. Totally. And that's, you know, I mean, just the how-to category on YouTube,

like the idea, I mean, my boyfriend built me the studio that you see. right now had never built a thing. Built an entire room, like electrical, got some help with drywall. You know, now is like, I'm going to build a sauna. I'm like, okay. Oh, dokey.

There will be 10 to 20,000 videos on YouTube that are, you know, or 200,000 videos on how to build a sauna. So I just, I like, I find it all so fascinating in terms of creating options. Somebody in the chat was like, UBI incoming. Why would it? Why would it have to come? You can now make a job out of any freaking thing on the internet. Yeah, it's amazing.

Find your passion. Yeah, UBI is like, we had a giant, listen, I don't have a problem with, you know, people who are having a tough time getting unemployment or whatever. What I would say about UBI is we had an experiment for the last two years in some cases that was UBIS or adjacent. Right. And what happens when money drops from the sky and people have nothing to do? Like, things get weird.

They start buying NFTs, you know? Or people start buying. drugs and overdose or, you know, people need to have meaning and purpose in life. And that's the problem I have with UBI is, okay, what's your purpose? Why do you get out of bed? And not everybody, but we all have people in our lives who, you know, maybe they had a trust fund or something, or they had like money gifted to them. Do they, are they happy in life? Do they have purpose? Do they wake up every day and are they happy? Maybe not, you know? Maybe not. I didn't really mean to start a UBI conversation. I think that's sort of true. I think,

there are people who won't want to. I think we probably need a baseline of support. What we did see also during the pandemic in our great UBI experiment is like child hunger in the United States was cut in half, right? That was great. I mean, so there were some really true. And people were like, wow, I'm able to pay my rent. And because I have a baseline of support that keeps me in my house, I can get a job. Whereas previously, I was too unstable to get a job. So like there's pros and cons, obviously. But I guess what I mean to say is that it has always been the way of America and humans to create, more work. Right?

Yes. Of course. So we have this big freak out about, which is, you know, we're like, what's going to happen when robots take jobs, exactly. And AI takes jobs and whatever. And it's like, oh, you're, people are going to make money playing video games. You could argue about the pros and cons of that for sure. But people are finding, like, the river finds a way.

Exactly. And like, but one example, I'm a big Knickerbocker fan. I love my Knicks. And my fan, CP, the franchise, a franchise. created Knicks fan TV on YouTube after every game. And then once a week, and when there's breaking news, he talks about the Knicks. And, you know, he has a community just like we do here on YouTube.

And I've met all these friends. And they have this like super chat feature. We don't turn it on here because we have advertising. We don't need the money. But where you can double click and give, and people give him super chats while he's talking. And he reads the super chats for five bucks. But when the Knicks win,

I'm so happy that he does this, probably 20 times a year. him 50 or 100 bucks. Now, like, I'm giving him $1,000 probably a year. And I look at it as I'm a patron. If I went to dinner, that would be what this would cost me. And I'm getting as that much entertainment as going out to dinner. I just want to see him keep going, right? And there's other people like Chuck D. the famous rapper, musician, he gives $25 bucks, 50 bucks, you know, every other game. And we're just trying to keep this guy doing it. Right. And hopefully he'll be able to quit his job. And then we have this incredible Nick show that we get to watch. Yeah. And there's got to be another 20 or 30 fans who put up $2 to $20 tips as well. So I got to think he's making a thousand maybe $500 to $1,000 every episode with 80 games a year. You know, okay, maybe we're getting there. Maybe we're getting to 40 grand or 60 grand, you know, which is, you know, I don't know, enough for somebody to quit their job, but getting close. Yeah. Monetize your interests, everybody. Okay.

I have a founder meeting coming up. So let's keep talking to tech news. The latest, this is just sort of interesting and also a very 2022 sentence. Coinbase added Shopify CEO Toby Luky to its board, which is interesting for lots of reasons. Coinbase founder and CEO Brian Armstrong announced the appointment saying Toby's experience as a founder and CEO, scaling his business from a small niche online marketplace into what has become a critical backbone of global e-commerce, will help guide Coinbase as we seek to bring. crypto to more people and businesses around the world.

That's great. We have seen this before. Zuckerberg had Mark and Drison famously on the board, who is a founder who turned into a venture capitalist, Peter Thiel on the board, founder of PayPal who turned into a venture capitalist. And then he also added the DoorDash CEO, I think, to the board, Tony. And I think he already had the Dropbox. Did he have Dropbox CEO, Drew Houston on the board? So anyway, if you're the founder of a company and you want to have like really good discussions around your board. Like capital allocators are great. Capital allocators are previously founders, have both.

And then people who are at scale, it's pretty great. The one thing I will say about this is it's going to be a lot more men on boards. I was a lot of white men. I was like, do they have any ladies on that board? But probably not. Well, right? Here's a thing. In the, in the, in the, if you look at diversity, let's just take

gender as one portion in Silicon Valley. It's gotten a lot better over the last 10 years. Everybody would agree. The number of companies being led by women is just exploded. That being said, there is a trailer here, which is if you're only going to pick people who've been on public boards or whatever, you know, there is a trailing 10-year, 20-year lag, just like there are for venture funds. So I always encourage people when they're looking at diversity statistics, you have to look at

the number and the percentage of people who've been funded recently, not just the dollar amounts, right? Because the dollar amounts are trailing indicators, right? That's which companies survive, which means which companies are 10 plus years old. And so, you know, in this case, I think if you're only going to pick CEOs of successful public companies, it's going to look like 20, 2005 to 2010 or earlier. So you're not going to have as much diversity. I would say, I think the other aspect of this that I find interesting is that, you know, I've waded into this once on Twitter. I don't think we've had a full pledged conversation about crypto targeting men so specifically as its primary audience and demographic, right?

Not even targeting, but like crypto, it's basically like- Are they targeting it or is it just turned out that way because they were like this underground and cell group? That a lot of like dudes are into it, right? I mean, there's the crypto bro concept. And then there was a Twitter thread that I jumped in. on that was basically like, everybody I'm talking to in the crypto space is going into,

is heavily, uh, targeting sports marketing, which is code for looking for men, right? Like, I'm a huge sports fan and also a long time business journalist. And if you say that you're going to sports marketing,

like this was around the time of the crypto.com arena name change. Yeah. And so it's sort of like, there's clearly a target demo here that is. I think I, but potentially limited. It's limiting. I think it might not be as nefarious, I should think.

I don't think it's nefarious at all. Oh, okay. I think it's horribly, actually, now that I realize it is horribly nefarious, you know what's happening? What? Crypto is more analogous to gambling than it is to startup investing or investing in stocks, right? So if that's the case, who bets on sports?

That's overwhelmingly a male behavior, you know, for whatever reason. Maybe women are too smart to waste money. maybe they think about the long-term consequences of things. I don't know the, you know, Darwinian nature of why men are so apt to gamble versus women. But that's what this indicates to me in terms of why crypto is so appealing to men or why they might be doubling down and advertising to men. Right.

And then you do start to get, without a doubt, right? Then you start to get a population, like you start to get behaviors. I would say that like at this point, seven out of the 10 rando trolls who show up have dot eath as their display name. It's pretty toxic in pockets. There are toxicity pockets. It can be incredibly toxic. There's no doubt.

And so then you have this kind of crypto bro culture and it gets perpetuated. And the more like dudes you add to your board, the more you continue to perpetuate that culture. And listen, I'm not so much complaining about the culture as I am pointing out that as a business strategy, it's limiting. right? There's only, if you can't grow beyond a certain population, when you are claiming that you're going to decentralize and revolutionize finance, like, it's a narrow lake. There was at that famous Bitcoin conference in 2021, there was a dude. And let me say, that whole conference was dudes on stage. I mean, it might have.

been literally like 97% dudes based on what I saw. Somebody could fact check me on that one. But they have this concept of being a Bitcoin maximalist. And then they have a subset of that, which is a smaller subset for sure, which is Bitcoin toxicity. And what that doctrine states, and it is a doctrine. And this guy, Nick ZM, kind of explained it. And he explained toxic maximalism is important for the survival of Bitcoin that you have

to attack anybody who attack Bitcoin. Yes. And that is like really gross. And that's why they create all of these anonymous accounts that are under a year old, that have no followers, but that follow 100 people who will reply to you if you say anything negative about Bitcoin, the explicit strategy in this group of people is to reply to you and say, have fun being poor, OK, boom, or whatever. Or attack your physical look.

look like they did for me. This is before I lost the weight. And it was, you know, they're like, you're fat, you're old, you're dumb.

Have fun being poor. And I'm like, I'm not poor. I own over a million dollars for the bitcoins. I'm just saying like, there could be another technology that would be better than Bitcoin.

And like when I took that position, which is a really strong position, like all technology gets replaced with better technology. Yeah. Bitcoin will be replaced at some point. There's a 100% chance of that with a better technology. All you have, The bet you're making is when that happens.

Is that going to happen in five years or 15 years? But it's between those two numbers in my mind. Yeah. It's between those two numbers, right? Like, pick a technology. Like, almost all of them get replaced. Or commodified. Or commodified within five to 15 years.

Yeah. With very rare exceptions, you know. And so, anyway, I agree with you. It's pretty toxic. But all that being said, back to this story. Not to take anything away from Toby. No, I don't think either of these guys are toxic. I actually.

We never talked about the Coinbase. Don't bring your... I wasn't here then. You weren't here back then, but that would have been an exposed to discussion because I was kind of like, I kind of agree that like for startups, kind of important that they don't take on every single issue.

And Coinbase has objectively done much better since they said, do not bring social issues to work as a business. Now, is that good for society or not? That's a whole other story. But... Right. You know, I know it's hard.

I'm not saying people, I think his, I love the fact that Brian did not apologize, double down and just said, listen, don't work here. And it's kind of worked well. If you actually care about social justice issues, like, don't go work there. He doesn't want to talk about it. Right. He created a filter. He created a filter. He set the tone of the culture and gave the employees an option to leave and they were in a market where people had plenty of options.

So like. And he gave them huge severance. That was the power move. You do you. You're the CEO of a private company. You can absolutely do that 100%. And to me, that is exactly though the kind of, it just raises the same question for me,

which is do you want your audience to get bigger or not? Do you want your customer base to get bigger? Do you want maximum hiring options? And do you want maximum customer possibility or not? And the answer is no. The answer is no. The answer is a hard no. Like, we want people to work here who care, who are obsessed with the global financial system.

And that's it. And that's what he said. Yeah. You know, and like, so if you care about those things, like, it's not the guy to work for. Yeah. I mean, props for being honest, man. Love it. I think that was the powerful.

Don't make people guess. Don't make people guess. I only have five minutes and I do not want to cut this short because the story is. That's such a good story. We'll do that with see. Tease ahead. All right. Here's what happened.

It was 2010. Twitter was a new thing. The iPad was coming out. everybody knew it was coming out. I had a three-month-old, no, two-month-old, you know, in the room next door. And it was like two in the morning and, you know, I was changing diapers or whatever in L.A. I was sitting there in bed with my wife and I was on this Twitter thing. And I was like, I'm going to tell everybody that I have the iPad that's coming out tomorrow at this keynote because everybody knew it was coming out of the keynote.

That had that much had lead. And I proceeded to describe the iPad that's, Steve Jobs had given me under NDA and that at midnight, the NDA ended so I could talk about it. Because they had, I think I said, like, they made a mistake on the NDA. They put the 26 or whatever. And I described a product that could not possibly exist in 2010, which is it had two cameras on it. The battery lasted like three days. It was powered by solar power. All of them connected together in a mesh network to create a free internet access for everybody globally. and that it had a DVR that could store like 100 hours

and it had an AI assistant, you could talk to it. This is long before Siri. And I came out with the most ridiculous tech specs that would have drained a battery in 2010 in 15 minutes. And that had an HD tuner in it so you could, and it recorded like every, anyway, it was like a crazy spec. And like, I just thought it was so obvious that this was a joke. especially because I said it had

fingerprint security on it, which didn't exist at the time, and that it had essentially like thumb pads on it where it was like Nintendo We Like, and you could play Farmville, and I was playing Farmville over it, and the farms would go over three or four iPads, and you could put four iPads together and make a giant farm,

and it would like, you know, do it at the bezel or whatever. I just came up with the most absurd specs, And then I fell asleep. And then I fell asleep. And my wife goes, do you think you should really do that? You might piss off Steve Jobs. It's like your phone is on fire and I'm not sure why. I woke up in the morning, I kid you not, with 100 phone calls and text messages and insanity.

And we will tell that story on tomorrow's show. See you then. Bye-bye. Stick around. Stick around. It's insane. Hey guys, Rachel reporting here on February 14th and 15th. We'll be hosting Founder University Intensive.

This is a two-day program for founders. Now, this course is only open to women founders. We'll be hosting a course open to everyone on May 9th and 10th. You can apply for both at founder. University. And applications for the longer 12-week founder university program are due on February 14th, and you can also apply for those at founder. com.

Follow Jason and Molly on Twitter. At Jason and at Molly Wood. If you're not a boomer and prefer TikTok, search for this week in startups to find a fan account. at this underscore week underscore in underscore startups and our official account at TWA startups but honestly the fan account is way better than ours and if you're still not tired of hearing from Jason six days a week you can hear a read his book angel at angel the book dot com slash audible