This Week in Startups - Reacting to SBF's ill-advised media tour + Disney's new in-house AI-based de-aging tool | E1625

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

First up, J+M go through a tale of two interviews: SBF at DealBook (3:14) and on Good Morning America (31:58). Then, Lon Harris joins to discuss Disney's new in-house automatic de-aging tool and more! (47:00) (0:00) J+M tee up today's segments! (3:14) Covering Sam Bankman-Fried's two recent interviews, reacting to clips from SBF at the NYT DealBook conference (12:14) Vanta - Get $1000 off your SOC 2 at https://vanta.com/twist  (13:43) SBF chimes in on VC responsibility and drug usage at FTX (27:31) Embroker - Use code TWIST to get an extra 10% off insurance at https://Embroker.com/twist  (28:46) Finish up with clips from DealBook: FTX US and a final round of applause (31:58) SBF's Good Morning America interview with George Stephanopoulos  (37:54) Nutrisense - Use code TWIST and get $30 off at nutrisense.io/twist (39:24) Finishing on SBF's GMA interview and comparing the two interview styles (47:00) Lon Harris joins to discuss Disney's new in-house automated de-aging tool (1:07:48) $WBD in talks to license animated content to Amazon, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon's new artist-led venture, Lon's recommendations, Jason's nineties stories, and more! FOLLOW Jason: https://linktr.ee/calacanis FOLLOW Molly: https://twitter.com/mollywood FOLLOW Lon: https://twitter.com/lons Subscribe to our YouTube to watch all full episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkkhmBWfS7pILYIk0izkc3A?sub_confirmation=1

All right, everybody. It's a huge show today. First up, we're going to break down the scam, bankroom fraud's tale of two interviews. I'm sorry, Sam Bankman-Fried. Sorry, Molly, I get that wrong sometimes. It's my- It just happens. You lose focus. It's my dyslexia.

I blame it. Like Sam Bankman, fraud, I blame it on something other than me. It's my dyslexia. Exactly. I never meant to screw up his name like that. Yeah, so yesterday, Andrew Ross Sorkin interviewed SBF at the New York Times Deal Book Summit. And then this morning, good morning. America aired 10 minutes of a two-hour interview between George Stephanopoulos, The Goat and SBF.

One interview was, I don't know, to just be blunt about it, one was a joke and one was amazing. And we're going to go through each of them and show you which is which. I haven't seen so many softballs since, you know, somebody finished the joke for me. But my lord, that was a lot of softballs. And then, man, it was reigning cotton balls. It was raining cotton balls at deal book. And then Stephanopolis, the Spartan comes in. just absolutely demolishes.

This is a clinic in how to conduct an interview with somebody accused of one of the largest frauds in the history of humanity. Of course, then it wouldn't be Thursday without this week in streaming. Our guy, Lon Harris, joins us to talk about all things streaming, including de-aging. Yeah, this is so fun. We have a fascinating conversation about Disney's new in-house AI-based de-aging tool, what it means for the future of movies, franchises, and possibly humanity. And then we talk a little bit about Lon's great suggestions, things for you to watch this weekend.

It's some really good ones in there. And I reveal two of the movies that I had cameos in. I'm talking about narrative independent films when I was in my independent film era at the turn of the millennium and people were putting me in movies. Amazing. And I give you some memories. I'm on an IMDB, y'all. He has an IMDB page. That's it.

And the 90s were great. I'll give you some 90 stories at the end of the. the show that you're going to love, including Shanei O'Connor, Jeff Buckley, and others. So stick with us. Good. What a fun show, yes. This week in Startups is brought to you by Vanta.

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stress and sleep in real time by parents sharing a CGM with their app and expert dietitian guidance, Nutrisense can help you reach your health goals. Use code Twist and get $30 off at Nutrisense.io slash twist. All right, Molly. I love today already. The last 24 hours have been quite interesting. A tale of two interviews, clearly. SBF, Sam Bankman fraud, afraid, sorry.

Right. He is doing the most confounding media tour in the history of frauds. I mean, mistakes. Yeah. I mean, we've seen people make bad decisions when they're under investigation, but this has to be the most incredible flouting of common sense we've ever seen in the last 24 hours. Sam, I actually saw, I think Nick posted this sham bankman fraud. I mean, it like goes online. You can really. you have a lot of fun with this. In the last 24 hours, he has done two interviews, one at the Deal Book Summit with Andrew Ross Sorkin, and then this morning in person on Good Morning America with George Stephanopoulos. And obviously everyone's going to talk about this.

We want to talk about a couple of specific parts of it. First, trying to understand why in the blue blazes and how he slipped his lawyers and is doing these interviews at all, considering he's not involved with FTX anymore. officially and then two or B who wore it best in the journalism department I mean the clips speak for themselves right

should we just watch some of these clips? They really do let's do it we're going to go with some of these so here are we're going to start with the deal book interview where SBF joined virtually we're just going to for purposes of a little bit of context I guess set up the part where he's just shaking the whole entire time there's not even sound here.

We're just watching him do the Twitch, which I'm now starting to think might be his thing. Yeah, I think he might just shake. Yeah, you hate to make this part of the story because if the person has a condition, right, we wouldn't want to mock them or anything. But when you're involved in a fraud and you're shaking like a leaf during an interview

and you've admitted to promoting speed amongst your employees, you kind of open the door to this, right? I mean, so I feel like we're in our right. I wouldn't just take a random person shaking and be like, oh, this person's shaking. I mean, they could be nervous, right? Or they could have a tick. So putting that aside for everybody who's going to be like, please don't shame people for having a tick,

this guy's accused of like a multi-billion dollar fraud. He's doing an insane press tour that no attorney would ever allow him to do. And in fact, people said in these interviews that I think Stephanopoulos said his attorneys told them not to do these interviews. And he also has been promoting speed. Mm-hmm. So the shaking feels like something notable. And we've seen him shaking in other interviews too.

So it may just be a part of the whole entire thing. Like maybe when he lies, he shakes a lot. I don't know. But it is worth pointing out that this kid is shaking like a leaf. Okay. So let's start the interview in our first one minute, 22 second clip here. Sam Bankman Fried starts by hitting on what appears to be his key defense here. this was all a huge mistake.

Can't wait to hear it. There is a generous view, and the generous view is that you are a young man who made a series of terrible, terrible, very, very bad decisions. The less generous view is that you have committed a massive fraud, that this is a Ponzi scheme, a manipulation of the system. And I want to start there, because I think that there are so many people who have that question, which is what is this, and what did happen? Yeah, look, thanks for having me.

And at the end of the day, I was CEO of FTX. And that means whatever happened, why ever it happened, I had a duty. I had a duty to all of our stakeholders, to our customers, our creditors. I had a duty to our employees, to our investors, and to the regulators in the world, to do right by them, to make sure the right things happened at the company. And clearly, I'd do a good job with that. Clearly, I made a lot of mistakes or things I would give anything to be able to do over again. I didn't ever try to commit fraud on anyone.

I was excited about the prospects of FTX a month ago. I saw it as a thriving, growing business. I was shocked by what happened this month and reconstructing it. Where are there things I wish I had done differently? So where to begin, Molly? Classic apology tour stuff, yeah. Okay, there's really two ways you can go here. I'm going to go with the first, which is, what is Sorkin doing here?

Already the New York Times has been treating this situation with kid gloves. This person, if the New York Times is, in fact, anti-tech holding people accountable, that's been this whole theme for the last five years. There's been those leagues, hey, we're going to hire people to hold tech accountable. I understand that. If you want to hold tech accountable or big tech accountable, there's, that seems reasonable, right? How is this holding big tech accountable when you start with the question?

The generous way to explain all this, you basically are like, so you didn't pull the trigger on purpose, your finger slipped, right? Wink, wink, wink. Like, this is leading the witness. Sork in the suit, great suit, by the way, Andrew.

But sork in the suit here is starting off with a softball. He literally gave Sam Bank Run fraud. I'm sorry. sham. Sham Bank run fraud. Shams. Don't forget the sham part. Hold on. Sham Bank run fraud. Sam Bankman freed. He gave him an out. That's not how interviews work. No. I mean, you're not like, are you a fraud or not? He answered that. This is interview 101. Sorkin, you know, this is the problem. The New York Times is putting Sorkin out there to do like the most important investigative hard hitting interview, you know, of the year.

And he's doing like this kid gloves interview. It's terrible approach, I think. That was a large. What do you think? Am I being too? Well, I think in this case, if you're starting the interview, it's your, and your hello is, okay, so, you know, you're clearly trying to, the way I would have phrased this is. it's clear that your defense here, right, from based on all of your tweets,

everything you have said since this has come out. Like, you want us all to believe that. And this is a version of what he said when he was like, the generous view is this and the not generous view is a giant fraud. I would have started it with like, it seems clear that your position is that you just got in over your head here and you don't know, you didn't know what you're doing and you didn't mean to do anything wrong. You've said that. There's no reason to let them restate that.

Right. Like, your first question is, why should we believe that? Yeah. Or, you know, how about why didn't you have a board of directors? Yeah. Who was the CFO? Where is the money? What controls did you have in place?

In other words, get into the details of the alleged fraud. Right. But, you know, this, and listen, I don't want to make this. But it's classic, like, this is when it's a presentation and an interview is the thing, right? When you're on stage, you've got to, like, You're leading something. You're saying hello. This is the hello question.

This is like, I'd like you to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself. So I'm going to let him off the hook a little bit on the hello question. Sure. On stage, it's just after that word all falls apart. And here's the thing I'll say. You know, this has to do with access journalism. So remember, Andrew Rossorkin hosts a CNBC show every morning. If you want to get CEOs on that show to come on a regular basis, if you're too confrontational,

you lose access. If Paris Swisher is doing the code conference and she's too controversial, if she's too cutting, you're going to lose the interview next year. The person is not going to show up. And, you know, I don't know what Andrew Rorosurkin is getting paid

to host this. I'm going to guess he gets paid a half million or a million dollars to host something like Deal Book, Kara Swisher, Walt Mossberg, anybody who host these conferences, half million, a million, two million dollars. I don't know if that's the case

of the New York Times. I would assume there's something, some very big paycheck for him. And so you get into this very awkward space where if you're too harsh on people, they don't show up for your conference. If you don't get the big names, you don't get the big ticket sales

and the tickets to these, I don't know what it costs to go to Deal Summit or Dilipook Summit. I'm going to guess five or ten grand is the ticket price, like any other big tech conference. So anyway, there's a little bit of that undercurrent here, which is, you know, Andrew Rost.

It's a little bit of a show. And Kig loves. Listen, founders, very important. If you're in SaaS or you're in services and you store customer data in the cloud, you need to be SOC2 compliant yesterday. And you might be hearing this and you may not even know what SOC2 is or maybe you heard about it. You know you're behind the eight ball. Let's get this solved today.

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V-A-N-T-A-T-A-T-W-I-S-T-T-W-S-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-S-T-T-T-T-T-T-S. get your sock to now. Let's do the next. The next clip, I think, gets interesting for our purposes because Sorkin eventually asked how much of this implosion might have been an oversight due to VCs. And remember, last week, the Wall Street Journal reported that Sequoia actually apologized to LPs on a call for not doing enough diligence on FTX and losing, you know, effectively its entire $150 million investment.

So Sorkin in this 97 second clip asks about that. We had Larry Fink here today, and he had a stake in FTX, and Sequoia and Paradigm and some very big venture capital firms had given you money. And I'm curious if they ever asked you questions about this risk management and whether they bear any responsibility for what clearly now appears, and you're saying, was at minimum a lack of oversight, if not something much worse. I don't think they bear responsibility. I mean, like, when you look at, you put yourself in the eyes of an investor, of a venture capital firm, what you're thinking about primarily is upside. What you're thinking about primarily is investing in a private company and thinking, might this 3x, might this 5x, might this even 10x on the upside cases,

and yeah, there's some chance that will go down. There's some chance that maybe it will go down to this. zero, but that's counterbalanced by the upside propositions here. And so most of what they were focused on was, you know, I think like what might FTCS become? What's the pathway to get from here to there? You know, what would it take? What are the missing pieces? You know, rather than, you know, at the point where you're dwelling on all of the various precise downside scenarios and risks for a prospective venture investment, that means you're not investing. Like, if that's where your head's at, you know, if you think the odds are that that's where

things are going to end up, why would you do that investment? I'm seeing us making the exact same faces here. I know, you go. I mean, okay, he's describing the power law. Congratulations. But Sorkin, again, giving SBF and out. Uh, uh, uh, Sork in the suit saying, hey, isn't this not your responsibility? the VC's responsibility. I mean, what is going on here? He's giving him like every off ramp instead of like keeping the witness here. He should have said, what was the, what diligence did Sequoia do? Did you have a data room? What was in the data room? Did they ask for a board seat? Why was there no board? Why was there no controller? What did you provide a diligence room?

Did you lie to them? Did you lie to them? Oh, very good, Molly. Yeah. Did you misrepresent anything to them? Because what I see in the very beginning of that clip, because I've now decided that the shake is his tell. Yeah. In the very beginning of that clip, he's shaking like a leaf again. And I think it's because what he is not saying is that he lied to them. Like the way to frame that question is either, okay, it seems to me, me, Aaron Ross Sorkin in the other part of the multiverse where he's like, I'm doing a news interview and not a show. Yeah. Where he's like, it seems to me that either your VCs didn't do due diligence or you lied to them.

Yeah. Can you tell me what those communications were like? Yeah. Yeah. So this is really weird. Terrible interview so far. I watched the whole thing. It wasn't a very good interview. I have to say. And you know what? Shame on Sorkin because he knew going into this that people were assuming he was going to do a kid glove interview because there was a feature story written about SBF like a week before where they're like, oh my God, you know, like. And it wasn't just New York Times. Wall Street Journal also a little bit of kid gloves. But people were like going through the New York Times. puff piece of him and there was no mention of fraud, there was no mention of theft. Somebody just took all the keywords and they did a tweet storm like how many of these words were in the story and the away CEO got tarred and feathered. I keep bringing up this story about the OA CEO because it was so unfair. They literally tarred and feathered her and

got her fired because she demanded excellence during the holiday season to sell some goddamn luggage and just make sure the people buying the luggage got their luggage on time for Christmas. And then this kid steals billions of dollars, co-mingles users' money with trading accounts, is doing self-dealing, is pushing speed on his employees. All this stuff is either admitted by him or his co-founders. I'm not speaking at school here. This is stuff that they've said already that they were doing. Come on.

Honestly, I am starting to have. have a lot of rage. I can't believe I'm going to say this. Yeah. About Elizabeth Holmes. Like the distinct, the difference between the way that she was treated then, was then pilloried. And frankly, like her 11 and a half year sentence, like the fact that her own investors

came after her and SBF is going to do this bizarre tour and like say nice things about them. Like they were just trying to get upside, you know, instead of, maybe calling them out for not doing diligence or whatever means they're not going to come for him. And he's not going to get in trouble. And she got 11 and a half years in prison and is pregnant. And Fast Company basically, you know, likened Adina Heffitz to like a person who red lines against Chicago landlords. Yeah.

Like I'm just starting to feel like, huh. There is a large double standard here. Because you can, they will build up the blonde lady like crazy. But God forbid the blonde lady do anything wrong. And then she's going to jail. Molly. And this guy. he is not going to jail and I'm horrified.

Are you thinking hysterical right now? Yeah, I have way too many feelings right now. Little lady. Aw, little lady. Are you getting hysterical now? I mean, I mean, it's literally they have a double standard. They have a double standard for male CEOs and female CEOs is clear. I will say he's going to get 20 years.

I'm predicting it right now. I'm going to put the over under on his sentence at 16.5 years. I think he's going to, and I think the over is the good bet. I think he is going to go to jail for sure. I mean, he did some really bad stuff, but then the train, the parade of softballs goes on.

Oh. More hurling of cotton balls at the fraudster here. Sorkin then asks about drug and stimulant usage, which again, Sam Bankman-Fried tweeted about. Yes. Literally tweeted. He opened the window.

He opened the window. He opened the window. has been a lot of reporting of ongoing stimulant use. He himself talked about microdosing and then taking some of a thing to relax and then some more, whatever, whatever. So Sorkin asks him about this. Here's a two-minute clip of his deflection on that. Can I ask you about the drugs?

You have tweeted about it. Caroline has tweeted about others have tweeted about uppers and downers and all sorts of things. There have been pictures taken of something called M-SAM, which apparently increases levels of dopamine to the brain. It's actually for Parkinson's. Were you taking that to patch? So, it's funny hearing this. I had my first sip of alcohol after my 21st birthday. And I think I have maybe half a glass of alcohol a year, roughly speaking.

There were no wild parties here. When we had parties, we'd play board games. And, you know, 20% of people would have three quarters of beer each or something like that. and, you know, the rest of us would not drink anything. I see, you know, any legal drug use around me, you know, at the office at these parties. Like, and when I say parties, I mean, like, you know, having people over for dinner is what that meant. And look, I can't talk about anyone else, like, you know, what they're prescribed between themselves and their doctors or psychiatrists. I can say for me, I don't know, like, I, I have been. prescribed various things at various times to help with focus and concentration.

And I think they have done that. I haven't felt any of, you know, the sort of impact that I think people have been theorizing here from it. And it's not a huge impact, you know, in the first place anyway. I think, you know, these have all just been totally on label use of medications and, you know, I think things that on the margin help me focus a little bit. I wish I had been a lot more focused over last year. I may have been unfocused in this last moment because I actually wanted to follow up on the question

when we're talking about venture capitalists. Oh, my God. Here's how you do the follow up there, Molly. Very simple. Did you encourage your employees to get prescriptions for amphetamines or speed? Yes or no? And did you take them?

Yes or no. I mean, it's really that simple. They encouraged employees to look into these. and then did you ever give your employees your speed or your downers to sleep at night? Did you ever give your employees drugs? Period. Full stop. Because what's going to happen is one of these employees is going to say, yeah, you know, I was feeling sluggish one day and Sam gave me a patch.

That's what's going to happen here because that's what happens all the time. Listen, if you're on a college campus and somebody's got an out-a-roll prescription from what I understand, this is, you know, in the 90s, we didn't have this. But from what I understand, if somebody's got an an anterol prescription, they're hosting the party during finals, and they're just handing their friends, you know, Adderall, and people are just like, yeah, it's just an Adderall. It's no big deal. Now, okay, maybe in college, you know, people feel loosey-goosey about that. But at a company, if you're the CEO and you're passing uppers around,

that's crazy. And if somebody in the company, you know, has ADHD or needs to talk to a psychiatrist, that is done in the most delicate of private settings. Not at an all hands meeting where you're like, here's the different stimulants you can do in a, in a PowerPoint deck

or whatever they did. And it's such an unbelievable dodge. He is literally, okay, two points. One, he is literally asked directly about a stimulant patch

and he starts talking about alcohol. So one, that's where Sorkin needs to stop him and say, I did not ask you about alcohol. I asked you about this particular stimulant patch. And then producer Brian,

new guy makes an outstanding point in our chat right now, which is, wait a second, didn't they have a $50,000 outstanding tab at Margaritaville? Yeah, but they only drank three quarters of the daquiry each, and then they went home, and they played settlers of Catan. What are you nerds play? It was for the Ritz of Sliders. They had too many. We all had half a beer.

We just ordered 3,000 beers and drank half of them. like oh my god everything about this is the worst of failure ever it actually really is Brandon Brooks and our notie gang described as a dog and pony show and that's honestly the best phrase for it man like he starts talking about booze and you don't you don't jump in and then he makes a weird joke about being unfa and also by the way in that meandering answer was a yes right he eventually did say yes i take stimulants do what the i guess sorkin doesn't do follow-up questions or maybe somebody writes the questions for Sorkin. I mean, I think he writes great dialogue, right?

He created the TV show Billions, one of my favorites. Like he's a co-creator. I mean, I don't want to dunk on Sorkin here, but who's writing Sorkin's questions. I mean, like, well, it's hard not to. Worst interview ever. Clearly someone is writing his questions and then he's not listening and following up. That's what this all comes. Like literally as soon as the kid says alcohol, you stop him.

You stop him. You go, well, actually, I didn't ask you about alcohol. I'm asking if you use stimulants at, work. I'm not asking you about parties. Yeah. Just really. So frustrating. But you know, uh, okay. And SBF has no attorneys advising him. Or he's still, or maybe he put two speed patches on this morning. I don't know what's

going on here. Soorkin did ask him in this interview. He's like, where are your lawyers? He's like, what did they say? And he goes, oh, no, they don't want me to do this. So this is manic behavior. I will say this is manic behavior or this is some next level. the only thing I can think of is maybe this is a next level legal strategy of he's in a manic state he is doesn't know what's going on

and his attorney said hey go out there and play dumb and say you didn't know because when an actual journalist sorry I'm Sarkin is a commentator is Sorkin a journalist or a commentator didn't he used to be a journalist anyway I think so this is not a good outing It's such a bad out.

It's not a good outing. He should have just, here's how to think about this, Molly. If I was doing this interview, I'd say, this is the first and last time I'm interviewing this person

in all likelihood. So it's not like I'm trying to get him to come back to deal book next year to sell more 2499 tickets here. By the way, it's pretty still. 2499.

It's a cheap event. But I think it's maybe one day event. Anyway, I'll go next year. This is a terrible interview and you should have just gone ham. Because the next interview this kid's given is going to be from the penitentiary in all likelihood.

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Embroker.com slash twist. That's E-M-B-R-O-K-E-R.com slash twist. Chef's kiss. I give them my highest rating. We love inbroker. Inbroker.com slash twist. I want to do one quick clip that I think might have made a little news. And then let's do, since this is a tale of two interviews, we will show some ways in which

it could have done better. and in which SBF really may have gotten himself in some trouble. But a couple, like a couple of meaty nuggets did come out of this eventually. One, I think was very interesting. This 24 second clip, still from Sorkin, where SBF made a distinction between FTX U.S. and the offshore business, the Bahamas one, and actually said that as far as he knew, FTX U.S. was solvent. Just to make a distinction here, you look at the U.S. platform, you look at the international platform.

The U.S. platform is a U.S. regulated platform with American users. To my knowledge, that's fully solvent. That's fully funded. And, you know, I believe that withdrawals could be opened up today. And everyone could be made whole from that. That none of these problems plagued the U.S. platform. Maybe. And he said that today, right?

He did a tweet today. He followed up with a tweet. Yeah, we have the tweet here. He said, expanding on deal book, when I filed for bankruptcy, that is, I'm fairly sure FtX US was solvent and that all U.S. customers could be made whole. To my knowledge, it still is today. I was expecting that to happen. I assume that he means customers to be made whole.

I'm surprised it hasn't, he said. I'm not sure why U.S. withdrawals were turned off. Yeah. Okay. So it's somebody else's fault. You know that Enron here? That Enron guy right now is just like, I will kill him. I will find this kid and I will kill him.

Yeah, I mean, if there's like a bunch of fraud and a collapse going, on here. You do want to freeze everything to figure out where the money was moving from. Like if he's saying this is solvent, what about the other two or three or 12 entities? So, you know, there's going to be so much forensic going on here. But all right. And finally, I guess people gave a round of applause to this. Maybe SBF's parents were in the audience or somehow meet a people made the trip to New York to Lincoln Center. Sam, I know that this has been a difficult conversation. Has it?

A tough conversation. I'm sorry. On behalf of everybody here and behalf of the public, I want to thank you for engaging in it at a time in truth when I know you've been advised not to. So thank you so very, very much. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Absolutely. Sam Bank been freed, everybody. Look, says that guy's not clapping. I love that. I like that one guy. Hold on. I like that screen reaction shot paused. This is important.

You don't clap for Will Smith after he just smacked somebody. You don't clap for Sam Bankman-Fried. this guy on the left he gets it Mr. Humph guy who's smirking that's the goat that's the guy

who got it right you don't clap for a criminal there's another one in the middle too there's sort of like there's this woman clapping

and then this older woman barely clapping and then yet another guy right in the middle in the exact same suit just sitting there being like the hell black suit blue shirt guys

yep those guys are LPs those guys lost money they're like how did you let this happen All right, let's get this George Stephanopoulos,

Clay. Not having it. Yes. Okay. So Sork in the suit drops the balls. And Stephanopoulos, the Spartan, a true warrior journalist who does not give A.F. A. F as the kids would say, goes full on Colombo for 66 seconds.

Let's talk about. One of the reasons FDX went bankrupt is because FtX deposits were used to pay Alameda's creditors. Carolyn Ellison said you knew about that. Is that true? You know, best I can tell, Alameda did have a big position open on FTX. That position, I think, was, you know, very over collateralized a year ago. There is a total market collapse and, you know, specifically large correlated collapse in its assets, you know, over the last month and to some extent over the last year that I, you know, threatened that position quite a bit. And, you know, I think that's, you know, as best I concerned, a lot of what happened.

I am no cryptocurrency expert. I'm no finance expert, but I don't think you answered my question. Did you know that FTCS deposits were used to pay off Alameda creditors? Hold on. Pause this and rewind. Pause and rewind. Because it's amazing. Did he just whisper to himself the question back?

This is a real interview. juxtaposition Stephanopolis the Spartan versus the suit and he this follow-up question is so brutal the reaction from Sam Bankron

Sam Bankrun is his head goes lower and he whispers and he repeats the question to himself did you catch that Molly? Yeah oh yeah I love that he does it a couple of times it's amazing let's watch it again as best I understand a lot of what happened there

I am no cryptocurrency expert I'm no finance expert But I don't think you answered my question. Listen right now. Did you know that FTX deposits were used to pay off Alameda creditors? He just repeated it back to himself because he knows he's stuck. Yeah. This is checkmate.

This is checkmate. This is checkmate in two. Checkmate in two. And he gets it. When we get to the last clip in this sequence, he gets, I think, a really, really newsworthy moment. But yes, I mean, okay. So what I find so fascinating about this, is that all through the deal book interview, all through every interview that he's done, always on in his tweets, and he attempts it with Stephanopoulos, he does this like what I call the chaff strategy.

It's like he's like shooting flares out at the back of the fighter jet trying to deflect the missile with this really complicated financial talk. Yeah. Right? He's like, I will just confuse them with ble-blop, bloop, blub-hage position and doop-dly-dupe over collateralized in the la-la-la-la-the-hole in the here. Margin position. There was a position for here for there. And if you're Sorkin at Deal Book, a financial conference, you can't be the person who sits there and is like, I don't understand that. But if you're Stephanopoulos, you can be like, oh, I see.

I'm on Good Morning America, bro. I don't like, one, I don't understand what the hell you're talking about with the over collateralized bleepid bit of bloop. But also, it doesn't matter. That's not the point. It's not the question. And like so many people have gotten snowed by this, by the chaff. Like the missiles have been deflected by the flares. I recently watched Maverick again like three times in a row.

So good. But nobody, but, you know, George was like, actually, I don't care what the collateral was. Did you know or did you not know? It's beautiful. You got him. It's like Columbo. Oh, you said you ordered the chicken palm, ma'am on Sunday? Because I talked to the restaurant and the restaurant said chicken palms only on Monday night.

And the-ohan said. Carolyn said, but my wife says I'm a nudge. Oh, Mr. Columbo. I did not murder my wife, and I did order the chicken palm, but I must have ordered that another time when I was in the rest. He just gets him. I'm no crypto expert. Now, okay, this is so great. Stephanopoulos is running a clinic.

And the paws, you know, when people are lying, when people are trying to be squirrely, they try to. they do the flare technique, but when you kind of corner them, you do get these weird moments, like repeating stuff back to them themselves. And this is why asking the same question two or three times as an interviewer is sometimes the best technique. Or I'm sorry, I didn't understand the answer. Let me try one more time, which I did, by the way. I don't, I'm not, this isn't about me.

But when I had a certain guest, okay, I'll just point out to Trevor Milton. from Nicola on the pod, I asked him some very dogged questions two or three times. And also, when I had a certain individual who had been fired from his previous company, I asked him three times

at the All In Summit. I would say his name because I don't want to get the stands in here. But I did ask him three times. Why were you fired from Facebook? It's me reaching for my flag. One more time. Why were you fired from Facebook?

And a third time, and I literally said, I'm going to ask you a third time and then I'm going to drop it. But can you tell us why you were fired from Facebook? Yeah. So I literally said,

this is my third time asking, which is what Stephanoplasted. Very astute follow-up question, which is, I'm sorry I didn't understand that. I'm no expert. But can you try one more time giving me that answer? That's him queuing the audience, who may be paying partial attention to the fact that this is a follow-up question. It's explicitly it's a follow-up question. And all gee, will occurs, I'm no expert. Oh, so masterfully done. He sacrificed the pawn to boom, put him in, you know, check. It's great. Hey, when COVID hit, you all know, struggling with my weight. One of the things I tried was a continuous glucose monitor, CGM. You've probably heard of these. And I used a product called Nutrisense, which I actually invested in the

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Let Nutrisense help you reach your full health potential. Visit nutrasense.io slash twist and use the promo code twist to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. N-U-T-R-I-S-E-N-S-E. i.o slash twist. And it's funny because what we have here is literally the three attempts. So that was attempt one. Let's watch attempt two, which comes with a pretty epic pause. It's a two-minute clip. If Alameda is borrowing the money that belongs to FDX depositors, that's a bright red line, isn't it? There are a lot of cases where that's actually explicitly part of the programs and that are happening. Here, here it says that the

Digital assets may not be loaned to FTCS trading. They can't be loaned out. There existed a borrowed lending facility on FTCS. And I think that's probably covered, I don't remember exactly where, but somewhere else in the terms of service. But they'd have to approve of that. They're saying they didn't approve of it here. They're saying you approved of it. If you rewind to the beginning of FTX, where some customers were, you know,

I think in line with sort of existing relationships that they've had, at least in some cases, wiring money straight to Alameda research in order to trade on FTCS. So you do know, and you did know, that FDX deposits were being funneled to Alameda. So I was vaguely aware that that was how some wires were being sent in the first place. Didn't that set off alarm bells in your head? So there were a lot of people who were involved in that process. Look, I really deeply wished that I had taken, like, a lot more responsibility for understanding what the details were of what was going on there.

I knew that legal was involved. I knew that other groups at the company were involved, that, you know, there were agreements drafted up. But you're ultimately responsible. And ultimately, absolutely, like, I, look, I should have been on top of this, and I feel really, really bad and regretful that I wasn't. And a lot of people got hurt. and that that's on me.

I mean, holy cow. Wow. In the first clip, he did have two swings up back. So he gave him the question, then the follow-up. And here he is again. You know, just. It's like, well, actually, I mean, I have your agreement right here with the lenders, the depositors. You said that.

Isn't that a red line? Says really right here, you can't do that. The buck stops at you. Job? And then the last clip. Okay, here we go. think, this, I think, is actually the key to the, I think news was made and it has yet to come out in this last clip, which is 36 seconds when George tries the third time.

I just want to point out, Stephanopoulos said this is from a two-hour interview he did. I think maybe 10 minutes of it made it to Good Morning America, because it's, you know, this is not their standard fare. You know, they're not making, you know, like a Caesar salad for the holidays here. Yeah. or or doing like the cast of you know white lotus season two i hope he had a toss to that though and then he was like here's some great eggnog cocktails for your party no i think this was between like the white lotus cast season two and your eggnog recipes so this this is not standard

fair here no for good morning america yeah this is what should have been happening at deal book and at deal book they're making eggnog and stepanopoulos is breaking down the financial... I had a little... I don't know what's going on in the world. I forgot my follow-up question. I would follow-up. All right, here we go.

36 seconds. Let's wrap this. This is really a yes or no question. Yep. Carolyn Ellison says you knew that FTX funds were being funneled to Alameda. Did you know that? I knew that there is an open margin position there and that involved...

I know, but that's all that I'm asking. If she's in court and you're in court and she's under oath and you're under oath, and you're asked, Did you know that these funds were being funneled to Alamedia? What is your answer? I did not know that there is any improper use of customer funds. Nice.

Nicely done. I didn't know. That's where he goes to jail. Like right there. That's where George got. If he said that and then now Carolyn is in her apartment in the Bahamas, and she's like, actually, I have the receipts. Like, that's the moment that his lawyers were afraid of right there.

Breaking news, Carolyn Ellison has decided to sit down with Andrew Rorsch Sorkin. And Andrew is going to totally savage her in an 8,000 word piece. They have her leaked Slack messages. She's going to be absolutely demolished by the New York Times. She's the lady. She already has. They wrote the article about her being the alt-right darling. Oh, they did.

That's right. God, bless America. Oh, she's maga. just she's mega so they had to go for there's a target yeah what what a tell of two interviews i really cannot believe that he got him to give a like that is the lawyer's worst fear who's to get him to give a direct answer i was not aware you know like that just handed the prosecution the case bravo george bravo bravo george i mean leave it to the greeks if you want a moderator if you want an interviewer i don't know who needs to hear this

But Andrew Wors Sorkin, absolutely fantastic in the writer's room of billions, give him an Emmy. But the Greeks coming on strong with no fear. No fear. I have no idea what Sorkin the suit's fear is here. What is he scared of? What is Sorken? Who is he afraid of offending? It feels like Sorkin is afraid of offending somebody.

Is there a finance person who's friends with him? Or is there some backstory here that I am not aware of where Sorkin, they whispered to Sharkin, hey, just take it easy on the kid. I think I really believe this as a former journalist, that the only way to be good at your job is to put your ego in a box and be willing to look stupid. Like to be willing to say, I do not understand that question. Can you say it to me again? Can you repeat that again?

That didn't make sense to me. And I just have to believe that Sorkin sat there in this big deal book conference surrounded by guys in blue. shirts and black suits who really understand finance and could not bring himself to be like, I don't understand what you're saying about the complicated financial mechanisms here. Yeah. When I had Terrell Luna on or I had Nicola, the guy from Nicola Trevor Milton, I was like, explain to me why this is cheaper or why are you pursuing this, you know, two day, an electric car versus a, um, makes all the money.

Yeah, it just nothing made sense. Like, wait, wait, you're doing trucks by the mile and you're doing, what's the technology? that everybody gave up on hydrogen trucks. You're doing hydrogen trucks but that you're charging by the mile for and then you're also doing the badger and the badger you're doing why? Why would you do a consumer truck

and go up against Ford and cyber truck and all these other things? He said, oh, that's so we can get the Robin Hood traders. You know, we need to get that crowd in. And by the way, that clip was in the court case and he was found guilty. So once again, the Greeks asking the right questions. We created democracy. We created science,

science, math, plumbing. This is the best show ever. This is the best show ever. It is already, this has already been such good TV. And now we get to talk about TV. It is time because it's still Thursday to bring Lon Harris back on the show. The show goes on. The show goes on.

I'm not going anywhere. Yeah. What did you think? Like it's like it's Frost Nixon. This guy doesn't have a leg to stand on, though. I think that is worth pointing out. It's a, he's not like, play. This guy.

Sam? Oh, yeah. Sam, Sam, bank run fraud. I don't, I don't feel like he's a worthy

adversary. George Stephanopoulos, say, four or five decades in journalism. Of course he's going to take this, this kid apart

with nothing. He's got no argument. Of course what he did was wrong. We all know it. Yeah, I mean, anybody should have been able

to take him apart, but, I'm a Jedi. Like, are you crazy? Like, what are you doing here? Like,

Stefanopolis just took the lights. say brown. He was like, zip, zip, zip. It's exactly why lawyers are like, three limbs go flying. Yeah, it's exactly why your lawyer is like, don't go on. Please don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Let us do the talk. Well, right about now, actually, by the way, breaking news also, I know you guys are not watching the Twitter, but Elizabeth Holmes lawyers are now suing because she didn't get an Andrew Ross Sorkin interview. I would have taken a couple years off her sent.

And she'd done the interview with Sorkin. What if, it would have, she could have cried. Up there, showing the belly. All right, let's talk. Let's talk about TV. We got a good story. I didn't mean to pull us back in. No, no.

It's all good TV. I mean, is this going to be a great part of the Elizabeth Holmes, Andrew Newman universe? Oh, God, I can't wait. For sure. It's already. I mean, that is already because Apple owns the rights to the Michael Lewis book. Yes. But Amazon is already working on their own.

separate show about it. So already we have two competing projects, and we'll see which one gets moving first. I think I know what to do with our little orphan project with the Crypto Queen. I think we need to just go full Legion of Dorks. And the Legion of Dorks is a series of, he's got the pen. He's like, okay, boss, I got this one. I totally. Legion of Dorks.

Elizabeth Holmes, Sam, Bank Run, Fraud, Adam Newman. And then who else can be in the Legion? of dwarks. This would, this would been what, like, I kind of threw this idea at you that it's rather than, it's a, it's an anthology. Every season is a different story about some over-the-top scheme involving crypto. So you could do, or for, or for all, I mean, however you want to do. Yeah, whatever the fraud is.

Yeah. I think, I think, I think, you know, frauds or fraudulent startups or questionable business practices is fine. Either way. But yeah, and I think each of these stories is a season. And then you just keep going. Or can you do them all in one season and somehow, you know, fictionness. But it is like a shared universe.

So you could, everybody you're introducing in season one, like those characters, those actors can still play those characters when they pop back up. And tech, it's not that big of a world. You would definitely get recognizable fail. Like whoever you cast is your Zuckerberg is your Zuckerberg. I just want to make sure that razzle-dazzle girl is in an episode. Remember? AirPods, AirPods.

Where are my AirPods? Remember when that was like a fun character in crypto? And she's like long gone, but she's all razzle dazzle, like that. But that's what I mean. Like there's so many characters from this world. It feels ashamed to zero in on one of these incidents. Yeah. Well, let's talk about just great, great cinema that's occurring.

This Disney de-aging to me is a really interesting story. Maybe you could queue it up and then we'll get some hot takes from Lon. Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. So Disney has come up with a movie. quality AI tool to solve the, oh, I wish I didn't have to use this pun, age old problem. Oh.

When you need your actors to look either older or younger, the de-aging process has been slowly introduced into movies and Disney movies and others. And it's like, it's not great, right? It introduces really an uncanny valley problem, as Jason put it earlier, because you have the CGI is really distracting. As soon as an actor talks, you see like their face might look okay. but when they start talking, you're like, who, that's not them. And also, it takes weeks.

It's super hard to do as a factor of editing and it's really, really expensive. So Disney has decided to solve this problem with technology and has created this AI tool. In fact, we can give some examples of how it has not worked. Here's Kerry Fisher, de-aged in Rogue 1 from 2016. And then there's Mark Hamel, de-aged. They also de-aged. It's like it's close. And then Mark Hamill, they de-aged in the Mandalorian.

And that's 2016 and 2020. Did that get better on? Do those? Because I think Luke Skywalker looked better. SkyWarker's pretty good. But I had a problem with Carrie Fisher. They, they, it's definitely, it improves a bit over time. I think the biggest issue that they have still is that you could do this to someone's face.

But if the physical actor is still there, it, it, are, our eyes, even if our brains, aren't fast enough to be able to tell why what we're seeing looks wrong. Our eyes are very good at that and can tell. So the classic, there are two great examples of this that I like all the time. Black Widow, there's a scene where Samuel Jackson, they de-aged his face and it looks great. You'd really never know. But every time he has to run down a hallway, it's a 75-year-old man with the face of a

30-year-old man. And your eyes can just tell. The other one is De Niro in the Irishman. where the face work is pretty good. There are some shots where it doesn't look great. There are some shots where it looks good, but there's a scene where he's got to kick a guy on the ground. And it's an old man Robert De Niro kicking a guy.

He can't kick a guy like he used to kick a guy when he was in his 20s. He used to be awesome at that. He now kicks a man with a 75-year-old sports, you know, and like, and so I think until we either it's a total revolution in digital animation and we really start nailing a lot of this stuff to the point where we can fool your eye, I think it's always going to be a little bit in the middle somewhere.

But your position, if I remember from previous this week in streamings, has been, hey, give the part to a younger person and recast it. I'll tell you a little story. Very quickly. In the 1990s, I used to do junkets. I used to do film journalism for the Daily Bruin,

and I interviewed James Cameron when Titanic came out. And James Cameron said, and this was like 1990, you know, 1997, mid-97, James Cameron's big thing was one day in the future, computer technology will get so good. You could cast one actor in a movie, and you could set different scenes in every year of that actor's life, and you would only have to cast that one actor.

We can animate how they're going to look in every other era, so that's one actor giving one consistent performance. He used Mel Gibson at the time as an example, because in the 90s that was not objectionable. And even at that time, when it was a purely hypothetical pie in the sky, it will look perfect. I was already a little cynical. Like, why not just get an actor? I like actor.

I don't see. We've had this, you know, like plays have had actors playing characters at different ages for hundreds of years, thousands of years, and it's never been an issue. Soap operas would just drop in a whole new person, not even say a word. Just be like Marlena is a different accent. Not Marlena. She lasted forever. And I mean, the Rogue one example I always use is they put, you know, animated cartoon Peter Cushing in there to be Grand Moth Tarkin. I would just cast Charles Dance.

Tywin Lannister from Game of Thrones. He'd be a perfect Grand Moth Tarkin. Just be a new Grand Moth Tarkin. You know, I take the other side of it when it comes to Star Wars. I love this de-aging technology. I love Hayden Christensen coming back in Obi-Wan and them having that battle scene where they're training at the Jedi Temple in the Clone Wars era, that one worked for me. Luke Skywalker being peak Luke Skywalker worked for me.

I don't want another actor. However, if they were to do a full-on series and it wasn't just a cameo, I would go with what you're saying, Lon. I think Sebastian Stan is somebody that talked about. The guy who plays Bucky Barnes in the MCU, the Winter Soldier. That guy looks exactly like Young Mark. For more than a cameo, I take your position, Lon, for under a minute, Molly, I'm going with this.

I like this technology. Good enough is good enough for me. I think that's a good split. I also don't love the AI part of this because it's really a workaround so they don't have to pay animators. And it's just like, just pay out of your Disney. You can afford to pay animators. Interesting.

Yes. I mean, this is a hundred percent about cost saving. Yeah, this is like a cabot. The computer will do it instead of humans clicking buttons and have, you know, that we have to pay to take breaks and go to. lunch and, you know. I don't mean to be really dark here, but I'm, I mean, like, animation is over. That is not going to be a profession that exists for very much longer.

I mean, I'm sorry, like computers are coming. Yeah, but all this AI stuff, it's, it's built on a foundation of real art. These computers aren't doing art for the very first time ever. I saw this the other day. I don't remember who tweeted it. Somebody tweeted like, they, they entered into an AI. How do I make an omel? And the AI, like, produced, you know, thought up and produced results.

And they were like, this doesn't come. This wasn't a Google search. The computer figured out. And it's like, well, sure. But the computer didn't invent the omelet. It learned how humans already make omelets and then it rephrased it in its own language. So that's all AIR is. It's taking art humans drew and then reformatting it.

It's not creating it. That's why Ray Kurzweil makes it very clear in the book about the singularity that the machines will keep us around as pets and for the occasional spark of inspiration. Like, we're still going to be okay. This has come up. Generative AI, which is the broader term for AI building content based on the corpus of existing content. We've had this discussion, Molly and I, but I don't think with you here, Alon, is I've wondered,

like, hey, who's the source data and how are they being compensated? Because if you took every performance that Mark Hamill did at. as Luke Skywalker, and then you start making Luke Skywalker content, which, by the way, if, you know, James Cameron said this 20 years ago, 20 years from now, it'll be perfect, right? Or beyond perfect. It'll be indistinguishable in 10 or 20 years. You could then make Luke Skywalker series with Mark Hamill forever and never need to pay Mark Hamill, I think. But these lawsuits are going to be pretty serious. And the first one has, the first major one has landed. It's tangential to this one, but there's a lawsuit now that Microsoft and GitHub and OpenAI, which made a

coding tool that basically helps people code faster. You start writing code. It tells you what to write next kind of situation. The people who wrote the open source software that train the AI are now suing and saying, hey, no good. Your AI can't be trained on our content. So this is going to be major lawsuits. It's fascinating to.

We talk about this like it's a cutting edge, like this is a today problem. But this is actually a thing that goes back to pretty much the early era of. computer-generated movie effects. Like, the famous story is they wanted Jet Li to be in the Matrix sequels. And he said, no, because he would need to pose for computer modeling while doing his martial arts moves. And he's like, those are my moves. I spent my entire life learning how to do Kung Fu.

I'm not going to give you my Kung Fu, and then you put it in a computer. And you can digitally recreate me doing my signature moves forever. I own that. That's me. That's my art. And that's why Jet Lee's not in the Matrix films. That's fascinating. He was like, do not...

He was having that concern when Matrix revolutions came out. The thing that I think is the big takeaway here, Molly, for me, is history rhyming. If you remember, George Lucas created Industrial Light and Magic because nobody could make the technology he needed to do storytelling, so he made it himself. Now, George Lucas, as rich as he was, from the merchandising rights he kept in the Star Wars era, and how much of a tent pole, and that's sort of the whole tent pole craze for movies, he made so much money, but even he could not sustain the cost of running ILM,

because he didn't need to use it. He didn't have 20 series a years, or 20 movies and series of years to use this in. However, and so then that's famously how it spun out and became Pixar, right? Eventually. It's fascinating, too, that there's a streaming tie in this week.

The Willow TV series just debuted on Disney Plus from Lucasfilm. That was the film. the film. That was the industrial light and magic film that they, the first non-star Wars thing that they worked on and became just like a movie effects house. So here's the chart of, from 2006 to 2022, of just the increasing number of de-aging occurring in films and TV shows. Yeah, sure. And I guess in 2022, there were 12. What's really happening here is the franchise system has become so profitable that they're looking for pockets to tell stories. We've discussed as many times here with Andor,

Obi-Wan, filling in the timelines, finding great little pockets of stories to tell. But in order to do that, you're moving up and down time, when you're moving up and down time, whether it's Sam Jackson in Marvel movies or Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen in Star Wars films,

you're going to need this technology more and more. Second, it's obvious there's one group that has the majority of franchises who needs this most, And third, nobody's making this technology. So for Disney, unlike George Lucas originally, they don't need other customers. They could spend $100 million on this, which would be 400 highly paid developers. They could have 400 developers at Disney spending $100 million on this a year.

No problem, because they would divide that $100 million into what looks like maybe two dozen uses cases a year. And it easily pays for itself, right? And opens up more opportunities. That's the other thing to remember about the media and the film industry more generally is if you are on the cutting edge creating these kinds of innovations, you can then, yeah, license them, sell them, market them, and that's part of how you're making your money back just this week. Disney bought this streaming technology, Bamtech from Major League Baseball. The 15% they didn't own. Right. Majorly baseball had invented this in the early aughts before YouTube to stream baseball games, but now they just made $900 million selling their remaining stake to Disney. because Disney uses it to power Hulu and Disney Plus.

James Cameron, this is the same thing with Avatar. Part of the money that Cameron made off of Avatar was not just the money the movie made, but all of the 3D IMAX equipment that he had to invent while he was making it to make the movie happen. And they did it again.

That's the other story about Avatar too. People are looking at how much money it needs to make at the box office to make a profit. He invented a ton of underwater camera rigs in ways to light and shoot underwater footage that have never been used before. And so we're going to get movies over the next 10, 15 years paying James Cameron and Lightstorm his company to use his tech.

So that's part of the story. That's fascinating. Right now, Disney is saying that they have no plans to release. They're calling this technology Fran. They're saying they have no plans currently to release it to the general. Of the neural network, exactly, that does the de-aging. They're saying, you know, this is going to be our technology moat, for example, around our franchises for the foreseeable future,

but there's no doubt that it could, they could license it. There's a difference between release it and then charge people tons of money to use it. I am a little, I mean, I will admit, despite the dark realism part of me, that's just like the computers are coming and that's it.

It is a little sad to me that we're going to develop technology to just keep sort of recycling the same faces over and over and over. And like our entire future of art is just going to be franchisaged. Like, that's a bummer and not a world I want to live in. So, like, if they want to spend all their money developing this technology mode so they can make the same version, some version of the same stuff forever, then I will be excited to see the, like, independent films that hopefully spring up to fill in the gaps between the, you know, franchise universe and the universe of art. There is some news on that in a second, but I just want to show the last, the Obi-Wan series, which we all loved. Man, I wish they had the budget of Andor for that series, but both series are very serious. are very satisfying to me. They did.

Obi-Wan didn't have the budget of Andor. I think so. Andor was not that expensive. They were able to do so much because so much of it was just like in the same four or five interiors. They had a big cast. I mean, it wasn't a cheap show. But I bet Kenobi and Andor were similar budget-wise. Maybe it was all the money went to the stars in Obi-Wan and not to the sets. Yeah. Well, that's right. You definitely had to pay you in McGregor more than you had to pay Diego Lund. Yeah. Yeah, the guy from Andor's getting paid like 50 bucks.

I mean, you got a pony up for Fiona Shaw, Stelot, Scarsgaard, Forrest Whitaker, but not that much. Not as much as you're paying. Come on. Yeah. Look at this clip, though. This is the Obi-Wan clip. My lord, this is great. Because they just de-aged 20 years.

And I thought they nailed it on this one. I couldn't tell. This looks good. And I think, you know, part of it, too, is you're not taking old guys and trying to make them look like young guys. Hayton Christensen, you know, he's older than he was when he was. 50 to 30, not 70 to 30. Exactly. I think it's a smoother transition, I think, in some ways.

And, you know, he could still be there and physically embody the character. But I don't know. To me, I feel like this technology is so much better for something like Planet of the Apes, when you could put Andy Circus in the Planet of the Apes movie and he could give a real performance as an ape. And you can see he's got a chip face. There's no way you could do that with an actor. To me, that's the best ideal scenario. for this, making the person look like themselves, but 20 years younger, it's like,

yeah, make up. And if you can't do it with makeup, cast a new guy. There was that Halloween movie, the second Halloween movie, Halloween kills. They had Donald Pleasance, who's long deceased, RIP, Donald Pleasance. They had, you know, he plays Sam Loomis, Dr. Loomis in the Halloween films. And they had a scene with him. And I assume they used this technology, but it was actually just a guy in a really good mask. And like, do that. Don't sell the technology Disney. I'm a Disney shareholder. Do not sell it.

But except to Warner Brothers, DC, do one little licensing deal with them so that we can eventually get the crossover film. I remember my childhood, they would every now and then do a, you know, Superman versus what would they do on the Marvel side? Oh, yeah. You would get like Superman and the X-Men or Spider-Man or somebody meeting up. Spider-Man, I think, was the big one. And then they also did, like, the Justice League versus Avengers and what, Justice League versus... When they were just...

DC and Marvel, smaller companies, you could... They could cross the aisle sometimes. You could get the super friends to come hang out with, you know, the Avengers. versus Superman is the... What are the chances of that? Lonnie? What are the chances that DC and Marvel eventually do a crossover? Zero or 10%?

No, I'm firmly in the Never Say Never. Like, at some point, we're going to get to where both... If they remain separate companies forever, which no guarantees. But like Disney, just outright buying Warner Brothers at this point wouldn't be that shocking. But if that doesn't happen, I still think at some point you're going to be like, we've done multiverse. We've done every time you can recast all these characters. The X-Men are here. The Fantastic Four are here.

There's no way to, like, goose the audience. The biggest thing we could do that would get the most, the biggest response would be, yeah, Superman's got to show up. and hang out with Tony Stark for an afternoon. And like, once it gets to that level of fevered pitch where people just want it, it'll happen. They'd be fools not to do it. Fascinating. Should we go into this last? It looks like Warner Brothers Television.

Oh, this is a small, this was just the head of WBTV. Is it a different kind of a London conference, contact London, I believe. And she said they're talking to Amazon right now about saying, animated DC comics shows and films to prime video instead of HBO Max. So it would be the first of these kinds of deals that Zazlab sort of teased, which is maybe not all Warner Brothers content is only going to live on HBO Max. Maybe they'll make a little bit of revenue by licensing some of it out to some of these other platforms. Because adults do want to watch animation.

All right. Well, should we wrap on some TV recommendations? Yes. I just want to ask one. I'm watched Willow. I'm caught up. Before we go to TV recommendations, I just wanted to tee up if you saw the, I'm going to go off docket here for a minute. Ben Affleck and Matt Damon have started their own company. They say they can save artists equity.

They raised $100 million from some private equity person and they say they can make films cost 15% less and they're going to reestablish ownership in films by the actors. kind of reminds me of United Artists. Exactly. It's the modern version of the old United Artists plan, where actors are going to make their own studio, and they're going to refigure all the deals so that all creatives, including below the lines, so cinematographers, editors, scripts, you know, camera teams,

they're all going to get sort of a better cut of the proceeds from their projects. Fantastic. This was also, by the way, from the Deal Book Conference. It was, yeah. He also threw a little bit of water on Netflix that made some headlines where he was saying like he just thinks like one team can't make 50 good films a year. He's just like, it's not possible. There's not enough people.

There's not enough resources. You need to movies are hard. You got to focus. And so he was just like best of luck to them. I think they're talented people. They make good stuff. But you can't churn out that a level of content and ensure a consistent level of quality. He called them an assembly line.

Yeah. Creative endeavors need. to have different little teams working with different perspectives, right? It's better if it's fragmented than consolidated. Yeah. And I think that's a pretty solid point. He's certainly someone who's had a sort of a clear behind the scenes view of how all these things work. Director, actor, now he runs a studio.

Well, and he's done like Blockbuster to indie. He really actually has spanned kind of all aspects of this. And so if he's putting together a production company, shout out Ben Affleck. Like my brother calls him Ben Hoofleck. I really know why, but it cracks me up always And I'm always like, that's, that's from a movie It's a thing, right? It's from a comedy movie.

That's Chris Catan from Saturday Night Live. He's like hitting on Matt Damon and he's like, And he's like, no, no, I got to go see my friend, Ben Affleck. I believe that. The whole family calls him that. And every time I see his name, I can't, it's like never even read it right anymore. Matt Deval. Yeah.

Because that was the whole bit. It's just these funny inflections, yeah. You know, I've always thought there's another model here. which is the consumers really want to participate in the making of films. It's aspirational. I think... Oh, sure. And this is something I've been thinking about for the syndicate.com is like,

I wonder if there's a documentary film that could be made for a million bucks. And I could just email a bunch of rich people and say, hey, do we want to invest in this? But there needs to be some model whereby we could have actual ownership in it. So imagine if a documentary filmmaker could make a film for a million dollars, then you do a million dollars of marketing. And you just release it online. You just do VOD, and then you let people buy it, pay-per-view,

and then you license it, you know, time window to places, but you have some central group that owns 100% of the IP and doesn't give it to Hulu, Netflix, or Apple TV for all time. It's only available in, you know, two-year licensing sprints or whatever. But the folks who make them own them. They're just small. I mean, it's hard consistently with films, you know? Like, a film can come out and make a lot of money and make a big splash,

but it's hard. Like, just like Ben Affleck was saying, It's hard to guarantee every time that level of consistency. You gotta make 10. Right. For every one or two that hits it big, you might make a few that you thought were great, and then they just don't, for whatever reason. All right.

Recommendations, quick. What are you watching? I mean, if you are a fan of Willow, if you are a fan of the film Willow, I feel like, okay, sure, you will probably like this show. But I don't know. When you liked it when you were like nine, but you. I can't totally remember what it was about. I still think Willow holds up pretty well.

Does it? Warwick Davis stars. He's a, he's sort of like a villager, and he gets sucked into this quest to save this magical baby from an evil queen. It's very much like a epic fantasy kind of riff, but done with the whole family in mind with a lot of sort of whimsy and humor as opposed to more like, it's not as, it's not as severe and self-serious and lore-heavy as something like Lord of the Rings, it's easier to just kind of jump into, but you'd still get a lot of the set dressing.

All right. And the movie's very charming because Val Kilmer, it's one of his classic performances. I loved the movie, but I was a kid. It's like, I'm like, well, how much did it like it? But I'll probably, okay. So this is a 2022 follow-up film or a remake? It's a sequel. It's a sequel series.

It's a sequel. It's a sequel. It's a sequel. It's a secret. Davis is back playing Willow, who's now old. And Joanne Wally, who co-starred in the original film, she's also back as her character. And they were planning on bringing Valcomer back, but COVID, and he's still got health issue, so it didn't work out. But Kevin Pollock also back in a supporting role as one of the Brownies.

Oh, our friend Kevin. A friend Kevin. So, yeah, and, you know, he's got now a young crew of adventures with them, and they're on a new quest, but it's in the same recognizable world of the first Willow. So he also played Was he an EWalk And he also played leprechaun He's had a number of like iconic characters Well I mean he did that show Life's Too Short

Recently with Ricky Jervase That was like where Ricky Jervase and Stephen Merchant Or Ricky Jervais was like his manager You remember? Oh really? It was yeah BBC show that was Very funny He's also

He's Professor Flitwick in the Harry Potter film The chorus director, the music professor at Hogwarts. But yeah, he's the leprechaun, and he was wicked and the Manny Walk. And he's also in the Star Wars prequels they put him. He's like got cameos in those because he was in the first series. Yeah, I was going to say, I kind of remember that. What is the proper term for a person of short stature today? He's a little, he's a little person, he's a small person.

I think that's what they usually say. Little person is the, the M word is the one you're looking to avoid. Got it. Okay. I just want to make sure I'm accurate here. I think it's awesome that, you know, they're recognizing these performances and, you know, giving people opportunity like that. I think it's like really cool. It's very cool that, yeah, Warwick Davis has sort of developed this whole career and a guy who was very much like a character actor and popping up in these, you know, supporting roles and a lot of stuff in the 80s, 90s, but has now become among nerds and movie fans a recognizable name in his own right. He's a selling point on. And somehow he was also, it seems like Star Wars is getting him cameos in each one, because not always in the Force Awakens, but he's also in Rogue One? Yeah, he pops up all the time.

He just, like, he'll, you know, it'll be like in a bar or when they need a guy. Like in, in, in, uh, in what the, in Force Awakens, he's at the pod race. He's in the crowd watching the pod race. So they just kind of go in, but he's like, yeah, you know. They just love him. He's just there all the time. I'm really worried about. Yeah, that's kind of dope.

You know, he was there in the original ones, you know. I love that people do that kind of, I'm here for fan service. I think it's kind of cool. I'm actually interested in seeing. What else you got for us? Willow, I enjoyed, I would say check it out. There's one that I very highly recommend that is now on VOD that I think everybody kind of missed when it was in theaters. It is a documentary profile of David Bowie called Moon Age Daydream.

My favorite song. By a guy named Brett Morgan who did, he did a really great documentary profile of Kurt Cobain. called Montage of Heck a few years ago. So this is sort of similar where it's not really taking you through like the life and career. It's not doing behind the music. So like, and then he moved to Berlin and released this album. It's just footage of Bowie and concert footage and clips from interviews and like and all kind of a collage just sort of put together.

So by the end you get this sort of sweeping view of the whole career. But it's not like watching a regular documentary. it's more like watching a concert film, a David Bowie movie. Tremendous. I thought it was really great. If you haven't seen it, the man who fell to Earth, 1976. Really interesting David Bowie science fiction film. I haven't seen that movie, yeah.

I did enjoy that where he plays The Man Who Fell to Earth. He's like an alien who comes to Earth and he's got a mission, but he just gets like Earth is so distracting. And so he ends up because he can, you know, he could sell space technology. to make money so he comes like a very wealthy man and then he just gets into drinking and drugs and he starts dating and he just becomes human and gets attracted by the end it's like oh wait I was here to like we need water like he almost like forgets why he

originally came it's also in the film August a 2008 American drama by Austin Chick which I have a cameo in if you haven't seen so two of my film cameos one August 2008 the other one's center of the world me and Peter Sarasgard August

myself and a round ball in that one and Josh Hartnett who should have played Superman at some point but he turned it down I believe

he and Josh Hartnett funny story from the set Molly I'm in makeup with Josh Hartnett and my stunningly beautiful wife who's stunning who's stunning

comes into the trailer and I'm getting my makeup down on the other side of the trailer I look over and he is chatting up my wife something awful and I look over

I go oh he looks at me he goes I don't know I'm just talking to her I don't know I'm just talking to her awesome chick

for putting me in that film great great director Austin chick so my two little maybe maybe at some point my crack production team will clip my two moments from

Center of the world. Show notes. I tell Peter Sarsgaard, I can replace them as CTO. Great, great clip when I'm playing basketball. It's a little ad-libbed. Yeah, I don't think the basketball clip is, I don't know that we could show that. Me and Wayne Wang.

Yeah, but I do say some choice words there. You're a little explicit. It was an NCAA film. I'm not NC-17 in it. No, it was unrated, I think. Yes, I believe they released it unrated, yeah. Unrated. center of the world. But anyway, he was also, you know, by the way, he was in Basquiat as well, right?

David Bowie. No, David Bowie was in. David Bowie. Yes. Also, we keep leaving out Labyrinth, which is come on, the most iconic role. Yeah. There was in a, it was in a bun. Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence, I believe is the other one. But they never made a Bowie film about his life, right? There's no Bowie documentary. Todd Haynes did that one Velvet Golden. mind, it's not, it's, he changed all the names. So it's not explicitly like this is about Iggy Pop and David Bowie, but it is a, it is basically about all those guys. So there have been

that kind of stuff. But no, I don't think anybody's ever made like a straight up. Who would you get? How do you do? Who do you get to play David Bowie one? The problem is it's the same problem as the Freddie Mercury one. Yeah. The estate, if you're going to do a film like this, you need permission for the music or else it's hard to do the film. Like what's the point of doing the David Bowie film. If you can't have a... If you can't sing, yeah,

he's got to do life on Mars at some point. Right. Same thing happened with Sasha Baron Cohen was going to play Freddie Mercury. And they were like,

yeah, the estate was like, maybe less gay sex and drug use. And Sasha Barron Cohen was like, no, I want to play it like really the real Freddie Mercury. You could tell the movie was a little

compromised. There's a scene in it where Freddie Mercury is having this like wild party and all the other members of Queen are like, we got to go home to our wives. This is crazy. We can't be around all these drugs. And gay people.

That's because that's what you get when Brian May produces the queen movie. Wow. Yeah, they killed that movie. Like, I don't approve of this. I'm going home. This is happening.

Somebody should make those films, Molly. The Sheney O'Connor documentary weirdly. Like I, okay, my son and I have been listening to like morning radio on the way to school. And I heard on morning radio, which is totally geared. toward Gen Xers that there's a

Chenate O'Connor documentary called Nothing Compares. Yeah, I've watched it. It's on Showtime. It's really good. But the Prince Estate would not let them use the song. And of course, I mean, that's... Like, yes, he wrote it. But they can't play the song, nothing compares to you, which is like the song...

I mean, that was an iconic remake that is really like her big hit. Yeah. You could tell him... In the movie, they have to... They have to talk around it a lot, you know. They could show, like, footage from the... the music video but can't play the audio, you know. I guess she had been a little dismissive or, I mean, you know, because she's tore up the prince,

they're the pope picture. Like, she's a provocateur and apparently had provoked the prince estate. And so they were like, you can't use that song. Anyway, just another example of like how hard these music documentaries can be for various reasons. Because right. It's going to get worse with all the pinheapes. Yeah. Her ripping up the Pope picture on Saturday Live.

Yeah. Uh, she was exactly right. shortly after that iconic moment. The movie is really about this, about how, like, today. Oh, really? Yeah, the movie is about, like, this ruined her career and sort of, and it really shows how both sides of the aisle at the time piled on, like even liberals and Democrats were like,

no, you shouldn't attack the Pope, I'm offended, you know, like everybody. Yeah, she got sort of railroaded out of the industry. And then they're looking at, like, today, she was trying to draw attention to this situation that we're all, very concerned about today that everybody was ignoring and it does look at like, well, you know, like she was actually just very ahead of her time. Yeah. She pointed out the child sex scandals that Spotlight eventually featured in their film, the Boston Globe's investigative unit getting, I believe, a Pulitzer for investigation in the capital. I mean, in a way, you know,

that's the thing, you know, she was so ahead of her time pointing out the hypocrisy of the church. and what they were doing, and she was Irish. And I used to run into Sheenade O'Connor at a little cafe, a tea house on St. Mark's Place in New York in the 90s called Chenet. Not Chenet, but it was a place called Chenet. It was maybe 15 seats and one time where they're having tea and it would be open all night. And the house singer, who would sing there four nights a week, was this really amazing, folk singer with the sweetest voice you ever heard named Jeff Buckley.

And so we would hear Jeff Buckley playing and he would do cover songs. He had some of his originals, but he'd do a lot of cover songs and he did a cover song by Leonard Cohen. That became quite famous. And Chenate O'Connor would be there sometimes working in the kitchen,

hanging out with the owner. And I kid you not, Sheneid O'Connor brought scones and tea to our table. while we're watching Jeff Buckley. And if you do a search for Jeff Buckley live at Chenet, you will find the Columbia Records release, and let's see if my producers are moving fast year,

of his five song, what are they used to call those EPs or something when they would do four songs? EP would be at Chenet, S-I-N-E, I believe is how they would spell it. And if my producers are hopefully moving quickly here, they'll find the Live at Chenet CD, which I have a copy of it, where I did. somewhere in storage. But live at Chenet, he used to play, and there he is, in this, like, what was a five- or six-seat

thing. And if you want to talk about big 90s, this is why I always tell you, Gen X is the greatest generation. And New York in the 90s was cool A-F. Can you imagine Sheney O'Connor bringing your two? That's just insane. Well, that would have been the 80s, right? She would have already been recording.

Late 80s, early 90s. She was like 38 to 93. Yeah, yeah. It's a late 80s. I mean, like this is 88, 89 stuff. Because by the early 90s, she was already, you know, becoming Chenate O'Connor. There is the Jeff Buckley, live at Chenet. I don't know what year that came out, but that is the, and that's Chenet.

That is the actual cafe. It's actually, you can see it there. Yeah. Of how small this place was. And man, that is so cool. This was, of course, Buttercoitz, hallelujah, before it became, before Shrek made it a global phenomenon. And you see there.

version of a follow you from Shrek. This is literally my youth. If you look at the, if you zoom in on that picture, and you see Jeff Buckley there, you see on the right the kitchen, there's tiny little kitchen on the right

with the little pastry counter. We would go there because it was super cheap and you see those tables and how close you would be to Jeff Buckley. And you can go find this place. It's such a 90s design touch too to have the coffee ring on the, you know,

like that really 90s coffee shop, and aesthetic is so like, immediately you know when this was produced, like the no other era. Incredible. Mojo PIN, yeah, that was one of the songs. I'm going to watch that documentary this weekend. I have officially made this recommendation, the shenade of documentary. If you are interested in, you know, sort of 90s music and also just how much the media has changed and also not changed.

And I'm fascinating. There was like that Britney Spears documentary that New York Times did for Hulu last year. that was sort of similar where it's just just to go back and see how the media was talking about it back then compared to today is just fascinating to like look at it side by side. Amazing. We've come full circle all the way back to Deal Book, all the way back to the media. Such good memories. Choosing its own agenda for all of us. Lon thanks.

Thank you so much, Lon. What a great job. Great job producers on the show today. Very tight. Very tight show. You can follow lawn Twitter.com slash lawns. here's what I want you to do. Just at Lons, I like maple scones.

I enjoy wearing Danner boots. And I enjoy, uh, I don't know what those are. So steak frets. Just boots will be fun. I don't know boot bands. Danor leather boots and a maple scone. Fancy. Fancy leather boots.

Lawn would say, well, here's a movie recommendation or TV recommendation. It's hard. I'm trying. People have been contacting me and I do my best. Like, yeah, stop. Give him like three random things. If you give them a movie, that's easy. But I suggest a song.

Movies and TV are easier. Product. New York. Jeff Buckley. Give me a movie. You know, it's like. Yeah, there you go. Amazing.

Trek is like, Shrek is the demolition man of the, of our, of the new general. I always think I say and have been saying for years that demolition man is actually the most like predictive prescient tech movie that's ever been made, full stop. Like if you watch Demolition Man today, you'll be like, oh my God. They saw it all coming. And you should do that. Weirdly is that exact cultural touchpoint.

We should rip off that, what is the watch party that Bill Simmons does? He does like some. Oh, rewatchables. He does the rewatchables. That would be fun for us to do a sci-fi film and just like pull out our best moments from it and do like a little roundtable. All right, listen, get out of here. We got to go.

We got to go. All right, Molly, great job on the show. Great show. This is Thursday. Tomorrow is Friday. Then there's a Sunday. then there's a Sunday. It's all happening.

People. We'll get through this. The pace does not slow. It does not slow. It's not slow. Happy December, everyone. Oh, God, is it December? Bus open your Costco wine advent calendars.

It's time. What? What did you? Wait, Costco what? Do you not know about the Costco wine advent calendar? It is a half bottle of wine for every day of December. I urge you, don't do what I did the first time my sister-in-law got me this like two or three years ago and attempt to drink.

the half bottle of wine every night. Because actually, this thing can last you the whole year. But it is now an annual tradition, the Costco wine advent calendar. This thing is the best. Wait a second. It's 30 bottles, 24 bottles, California only. It's a wine adventure. It's a wine adventure.

And it's labeled. So you can, so you can, if there are more than one person in your household, for example, you can just, you know, because it's a half bottle. So it's two and a half glasses. So if you're the person who has wine with dinner every night or whatever, then you have your little Advent calendar. But it's so cute, it ends with champagne. And it's like from all over the world.

There'll be like Portuguese ones. And, oh, no, it's a thing. It's delightful. I got to go pick mine up for my sister-in-law tonight. I, you know, now I understand why that stunning blonde from that viral clip was so impressed with the wine, with the Costco card, that guy, that hunky guy was mad. backing on her. I don't know if you remember that.

Yes. It's because of deals like this at Costco. I went to a Costco once in 1990, maybe, when it opened in Brooklyn. I have not been to a Costco since. Is there a, there are Costco's in the Bay Area, I assume? Yeah, honey. How does it work? You drive your car there.

And then you drive your car there and stuff. And then you show them your card and then you go in and it's a magical wonderland of things that you need. And you go up and down every aisle. and then you get little snackities and you buy the best steaks you will get outside of your like super fancy. I mean, Costco steaks are amazing.

The wine is incredible. The Kirkland branded wine is incredible. Huh. All right. The Kirkland brand tequila. I'm going to bring Chamath as a goof. The Kirkland brand wine. Do it.

It would be hilarious. I'll just take it. Oh, my God. One time. Please do it. Too much. Sorry. What time?

I was at Saxis place? One time he went to it. They gave Chumma. tromatha a glass of wine and he looked at the bottle and it was so like subpar he was a little bit drunk and he literally took the last two ounces of the wine he said this is terrible and he poured it out on the marble floor of sacks's house and he just dumped it out he was like i'm insulted by this he just dumped it on the floor the last ounce it was the funniest schick ever i don't even know how to feel about that except we're taping all in tomorrow so yeah get him a kirklin bottle of wine

I beg you. And then just decant it, decant it and give him a glass and just see what happens. See what happens. All right. We'll see everybody next time. Bye bye. Bye bye.