This Week in Startups - Reacting to Super Pumped (Uber) & The Dropout (Theranos) with Lon Harris +OneShop CEO Nick McHenry | E1411

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

We chat film expert, podcaster, and Inside.com writer Lon Harris to talk about tech's latest streaming series The Dropout and Super Pumped! After that conversation, Molly sits down with LAUNCH founder Nick McHenry for a quick interview about his startup OneShop (1:08:00). Show Notes: (00:00) Jason and Molly intro today’s show: Reviewing shows “The Dropout” and “Super Pumped” with Lon Harris, interview w/Nick McHenry of OneShop (02:07) Catching up w/OG TWiST cast member Lon Harris (09:31) Vanta - Get $1,000 off automating your SOC 2 at https://vanta.com/twist (10:47) Jason and Molly talk to Lon about “The Dropout” (the Theranos show) (23:16) Odoo - Get your first app free and a $1000 credit at https://odoo.com/twist (24:26) Favorite scenes and performances in “The Dropout” (39:05) Coda - The All-in-one doc for teams, get a $1,000 credit at https://coda.io/twist (40:30) Discussing “Super Pumped” - is it realistic? (01:08:00) Molly interviews Nick McHenry of OneShop on his LAUNCH journey and scaling E-commerce FOLLOW Lon: https://twitter.com/lons FOLLOW Nick: https://twitter.com/nickmchenry Check out one shop: https://oneshopretail.com/ FOLLOW Jason: https://linktr.ee/calacanis FOLLOW Molly: https://twitter.com/mollywood

Hey, everybody. Today, we have my pal Lon Harris Film Expert podcaster. He writes the inside.com slash streaming newsletter. And we wanted to talk about the two shows that everybody in our industry is talking about the dropout about Theranos and super pumped about Uber. Yeah, it is a great conversation about both shows. You can tell we're all so excited. We're just trying to jump in on each other all the time. Lots of throwback twist energy. And then after that conversation, after we pick our favorite actors, favorite moments, and we pick which show we think is better, and it was unanimous. We will have Molly in conversation with one of our launch founders, Nick McKenry,

for a quick interview about his startup one shop. We've been featuring Molly to interview as part of her journey as a venture capitalist. Some of the early stage investments we're making, and these are companies that are probably similar to many of yours, or if you start a company, this is what you're going to be experiencing in year one and two. And so we really like to keep our roots here at the store. Week in Startups and talk about the companies we're investing in, it's going to be a great episode. Stick with us.

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Hey, everybody, welcome to This Week in Startups. I'm super excited to have my longtime collaborator and the original newsreader and part of the original cast of this week in startups. My guy, Lon Harris, you know him as at Lons on Twitter. How you doing, brother?

Really good. Good to see you. I met Lon Harris when I was a young entrepreneur 15 years ago in L.A. He came and worked at my pool house when I moved to L.A. and we had like four people

and we had this crazy idea for Mahalo, a search engine combined with Wikipedia. It soared to 10 million in revenue and then came right back down. It now exists as Inside.com is making millions of dollars a year. Lon was working at a video store

when I met him. It's true. Yeah. It was a laser-d store as well. It was also a laser disc store. It was called laser blazer. Yeah. Wow.

He was on the Quentin Tarantino path of literally working out of video shows. And now he does web shows. But good to see you, brother. How are you holding up? You're glad to be out of the pandemic? Yeah. No, it's nice to, you know, it's like the world is just now starting to open up again here in L.A. It's nice.

Did you miss the act of going to the cinema? Very much. I, you know, I sort of tried as best I could. Like, Cruella last year was one of the first movies that, like, came back out in a theater. And I had a friend who rented out a theater and we went to go see it. And so that was nice. So, like, I did my best to, like, keep one toe in, even during the height of the pandemic. But yeah, I think I only saw, you know, three or four total movies in theaters all last year, which is, like, ridiculously low for me. I used to go every weekend. And what's the vibe in L.A. now? Do.

The movies are opening up, obviously, like Batman and Spider-Man. Oh, all these movies were only allowed, you were only allowed to see the movie theater. The whole idea of like, what are they called that, day and date or something? Yeah, we were doing the, right, simultaneous day-and-date stuff last year, like HBO Max was releasing their movie, the Warner Brothers movies. That's basically over. Although I guess turning red just came out on Disney Plus and not in theaters from Pixar. I mean, I would say in L.A. at this point, it's basically like everywhere else. You don't have to wear masks anymore in most places. People are just going about their lives. Like, it's, we're sort of, I don't, I don't like the term back to normal, but we're sort of like, you wouldn't immediately know that there was still a pandemic going on if you were just on the street right now. If you were like an alien that landed from outer space. What do you think is it to happen with that business model? Is this a total departure? But I'm so curious about, you know, from inside the industry. Like, people really liked the day-and-date release.

Families clearly, so it's good that at least, like, Pixar's keeping it up. But I know, like, it was bad for star contracts. Yeah, I mean, my take is, or what I've seen is, the pandemic massively accelerated a thing that was already happening. Like, you can go back to 2019, 2018 and look at what movies were doing killer numbers at the box office versus what people were waiting for on streaming. And it was already getting pretty clear. stuff like a big Marvel or a Star Wars movie that's going to pack a house with fans, and they're going to enjoy that communal experience of watching the new thing opening day together.

That's not going anywhere. People love that. That experience is very important to people. But I think, you know, we're seeing stuff like West Side Story, stuff like Coda, stuff like King Richard, these movies that at one time would have been huge national hits and people would have loved them and they would have driven discussion for weeks, people are fine with waiting to see those on Apple TV or Netflix or Amazon. So I think that's inevitable.

Like, we're just going to, they're going to be fewer theaters, fewer things will open in theaters. I don't think it's ever going to go away completely because of stuff like the Batman. But I think there's only so many things like the Batman or a new Jurassic Park every year. And most of this stuff is going to end up on platform. I couldn't have been more wrong on this,

because my position was, as long as people want to go on date, movies are going to be a big deal. And I always thought, like, that was like in the 90s, that's what you did. Hey, you want to catch a movie. You want to have dinner. And like, some people say, dinner or dinner and a movie. It was like the classic date, right?

And I think, actually, I know this sounds crazy. But that was like a really interesting way to get to know somebody. Because when I lived in New York, you go to the Angelica. You know, you go to see an independent film or something interesting. And then you have a conversation about it. about it afterwards and it was like a great, I don't know for me. I thought that was like a great way to commune with friends or to meet a new person and to build a friendship or a romantic friendship, whatever. And now it's just become Netflix and show. It also was a good way to figure out what kind

of person you were on a date with. Like are they a movie talker? Are they a loud chewer? Are they an octopus like a grabber once the lights go out? You could really learn a lot. This I feel like is probably the point where we should say for people who don't know this already aren't longtime twist listeners, that Lon Harris writes the inside streaming newsletter. Thank you. Why we immediately jumped in and jumped all over him with the streaming questions. Yeah. Right.

It's context. The ritual of movie going, to me, I feel it's almost like bowling or mini golf or any of those other kinds of activities. Like there was a peak of popularity when there was probably a lot more of it. But it's not gone completely. Like, you could still go to a bowling alley in most. towns, it just, there's like one instead of four, you know? And I think that we'll probably be the same with movies.

Like, you maybe won't have a, you know, mid-sized city with like eight multiplexes with 18 screens each. But I doubt there would be no movie theater. They'll still be, you know, people want to go see the Batman. So it becomes part of the like activity stack, if you will. Like roller skating or something. And, you know, it had its boom. Yeah.

Go to inside.com slash streaming to get law on five days a week writing about this stuff. and we'll be launching a new website for Inside in the coming weeks, which is kind of like a hybrid of dig or Reddit and LinkedIn. And you've been playing with that. Yes. In fact, for the last few days, I'm posting, I'm double posting a lot of these stories. So I'm putting them in the newsletter,

and then we're also throwing them into the social news app. Yeah. So this is going to be a very interesting wrinkle for us, I think, where we can continue the conversations. But we had you here today because Molly and I, I were, you know, chit-chatting in between, like, doing the show about Super Pumpt, the story of Uber. And then second, the dropout. Yeah.

So we thought, and this is going to be heavy spoilers, but only for the first couple of episodes. So I would encourage you, even if you haven't seen Super Pumped or you haven't seen... The Dropout. The Dropout. This is okay to listen to these, because we're just talking about the first couple of episodes. and they have a long way to go. Listen, you can still take an Uber. They'll bring you your lunch today.

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And on average VANTA customers are SOC2 compliant in just two to four weeks. Compare that to three to five months without VANTA. And guess what? VANDA is going to give you $1,000 off right now. So get the $1,000 off at Vanta.com slash twist. Once again, Vanta, V-A-N-T-A-com slash twist. for $1,000 off your sock too. I think we got to start with what I think is the better show.

I'm coming out with what I think is the better show. I'm curious which this is going to be. Okay. Obviously, I'm very close to super pumped as, you know, I was maybe the third or fourth investor or Uber. I keep waiting to see who they've cast is J-Cal. So far you've not made an appearance. They mentioned angel investors a couple of times,

but I don't think I made it because I'm friendly with Brian Copelman and he would have told me. Oh, okay. I think the far superior show right now, for me, two episodes into Super Pump and four episodes into the dropout is clearly the dropout. It's a much better show. I have just one observation to start with, which is this performance is so good. I cannot stop watching.

And my test now for a show if it's keeping me is when I'm watching it, does this device become more alluring to me? And when that woman is on the screen playing Elizabeth Holmes. Amanda Safreid. Amanda Safreed, when she's on the screen, I don't pick up my phone or I happen to pick on my phone and I hear her voice, I put my phone down on if you've had this, the quick 20 second rewind, two seconds, like I got to watch that play again. I think this performance is going to win everything. Lon, am I crazy? No, I agree with you.

Molly and I were sort of talking about this a little before we went live. I think that to me, the key differentiator between these two shows is the dropout is it's not trying to give you the like, here's the lowdown on the startup world. Like, let us show you what Silicon Valley is all about. It's really delving into this person, like her psychology and her outlook and like who she is and how she sort of created this persona for herself. And I think that's been her weird relationship with Sunny Balwani and Nevin Andrews and that stuff. And I think that to me is much more interesting. It gives them a lot more to play with than Super Pump, which is trying to really do the like big short, here's what happened. Like, here's the story.

Here's the definitive Silicon Valley show. And we're going to take you behind the scenes at like how deals are made. And I don't know. To me, they both, neither of them feels like super realistic. So it's great that the dropout delves more into the character study stuff instead of the. Is it a better show line? Yes or no? I think so.

Better show. I enjoy it. I'm enjoying the dropout more. There are scenes and moments and stuff I like from Super Pump, but it feels a little overblown. It feels like a little bit of a cartoon version of these events. Well set. Molly.

Yeah, I agree. I think Super Pump is so loud. Just loud as a metaphor. And then also literally loud. Like, so much yelling. And I agree. I think the cast of the dropout is phenomenal. I think Amanda Safreid should 100% win everything.

What I'm finding, interestingly, is that now I guess it's four episodes of the dropout, I think. And now that our Elizabeth has sort of gone full dark side and there's less nuance and less exploration of the relationships and what made her that way and less of her transformation, now I'm getting bored. Oh, you're bored by it. I was about to say it's riveting for me now. Oh, really? I have a different take. And the transformation and the relationship and watching her kind of like obsessive desire to become the person she's going to become. And now we have this very like sort of cartoony wall green steel thing, which is like fun, but like less.

In fairness, when we started to see Anakin Skywalker turn to the dark side and kill the sand people, that's when I was on the hook. That's when, you know, when I was watching that and he kills the sand people and then he force chokes Padmay and now he wants to kill Obi-Wan, that thing came. to a crescendo for me. So I like the dark stuff. You're like, you're happy about full villain. I like the villain, but. It's an apt metaphor, though,

because they are, they are treating the voice and the turtleneck and the Steve Jobs thing. Oh my God. Yes. Darth Vader moment. Like, they even like kind of preview it. Like, here's her getting her iPhone.

And like, it's coming. This transformation. Yes. Yes. The dark, the dark arts have some things. that only the Sith can teach you if you want to say Padme, right? Yeah.

And like those scenes of her practicing the voice in the mirror and like getting deeper. Those are so good. Let's go favorite scenes. She's nailing the voice stuff. It's really good. Favorite scene, Lon, take a minute to think this through because I started writing notes. Because I would like to make this a reoccurring thing. Like maybe every couple of weeks we have you on, we do this.

Sure. Maybe I'll send you next. We got to talk about that Apple show severance. I'm fascinated to get your. Okay. I, I, to get your take on this. That will be next on the docket for watch club. We got to talk about that.

That's purely fictional. That's sci-fi. That's not the real thing. Because Ben Stiller, yeah. We, the we work one. Let's put those on the docket for.

Okay. All right. But we got to stay focused here because I listen to a show called the watch and, uh, from the ringer network and they're very focused and tight when they do their critique on this. And I want to learn how to do critique from Lon as well. What's the show you do, Lon?

You do a couple of shows. Uh, Do any review shows now? Yeah, I mean, Hal Rudnick and I host a podcast called Binge Boys. It's very much like this. We watch stuff every week. I talk a little bit about the news and then we review whatever.

We saw. Plugs out of the way. Plugs out of the way. Let's get focused. Stay on Target. Best scene. I want everybody to think because there's so many good scenes in these first four episodes. And I got to think, Lon, you have such a great memory for these things.

and these moments. For you, what is the most character revealing or exciting and or exciting moment? Because it is a character study. Yes. I really liked, I think all of the stuff

with Elizabeth and her, she's got a bunch of these sort of older mentor figures in her life. And I think that like Stephen Frye is really good as Ian Gibbons, the sort of chemist who was working with her. Unbelievable. And Bill Irwin is the one I was going to.

Channing, I don't, remember he's her he's her mentor from Stanford her like faculty advisor who joins the board of her company yeah bill irwin yeah their scenes together are really fantastic and it's that you know it's a tough thing to capture that they're their colleagues he's also a professor there's like there's layers to their relationship but he also has sort of these paternal kind of protective feelings about her and i think that what the show does really well is show you like how she was able to get away with this for so long because there were a lot of people who had conflicting feelings about her felt weirdly protective.

They're also playing with this in Super Pump, and like how Bill Gurley feels like both a rival and a mentor to Travis. And I think it's kind of that same idea. And those scenes are so good. And there was a lot going on under the surface. Well, this was to give you the back end of what we knew in Silicon Valley, all of the VCs in episode one, they show the VCs lawn, kind of laughing around the room. And they make the VCs jushy, of course, totally fair, where he's like, you know, do you want some starfruit?

And she's like, starfruit? The guy's like in a, you know, like he's wearing his racing bike clothes. I'd said her hilarious. But you're absolutely correct that the old white man obsession with the blonde next Steve Jobs. And there's a turning point where they're kind of mentoring her, but then all of a sudden she learns how to manipulate them. Right. And the ultimate one so far for me is when she meets Sam Waterston playing George Shultz. Yeah.

And that's in the last episode. And she's like, and then she starts doing it with this Alan Ruck. But who's the CFO? Alan Ruck amazing. Alan Ruck's great. Who's the actor playing the CFO is fantastic. The CFO of Walgreens goes through this arc. Josh Hayes, Wade Mark is the guy's name.

Yeah, Wade is the real guy. Wade is like the real guys, the CFO. Yeah. And those two, when she is manipulating them, she kind of figures it out with the CFO of Walgreens of how she can play, dumb guys and their stupid egos and competition. And then she gets it to George Schultz and she is at the top of her charisma. And the reality distortion field,

she basically has learned how to force choke old men. And that's where like this metaphor of her as Darth Vader works really well. God, really does. It's such a superpower. Molly, you had to watch this and think in the beginning, you know, there's a sexual assault. She's being manipulated by men. You can tell like Balwani is the Schengali trying to get her in bed and it's super creepy. And it's obvious she's being played by men. And then she goes on to being able to play them. Maybe you could talk about that dynamic and then your favorite scene. Yeah. I mean, that dynamic is I think pretty well done here. Again, like nothing is subtle in this show. Right. Let's like be, let's just acknowledge up front that everything in both of these shows is like, slam, like, here is the point in the metaphor that we're making. However, I do think that that is played really well. And that's why actually one of my favorites, I mean, my favorite will always be the one where she has the sort of like the breakdown.

And then she's looking at herself in the mirror, giving her her own weird, herself, her own weird pep talk and practicing the voice, right? Where she's just like, we took some very inspirational inspirational, inspirational state. Right. Like that is just a creepy, incredible transformation. But I think the overlooked. Yes. That. Wait, what did she say? Say what?

What, whatever city, I forget what city they were in. What happened in Memphis? Yeah. It was like, what happened to Dallas was a huge step forward? An inspiring step forward. An inspiring step forward. An inspiring step forward. It was an inspiring.

It was inspiring. It was inspiring. It was inspiring step forward. So that scene is amazing. But I think that, oh yeah, let's like, yes. Yeah. New technology. New technology.

Atthernos. Atthernos. Developing. New technology. This is an inspiring step. Inspiring. Step forward. Forward.

Forward. Forward. I mean, this is so deranged and on point. It's unbelievable. But I do want to say, I think the overlooked best scene. Okay, okay. Good. Completely in line with this conversation

about how well she manipulates men throughout is the scene where she takes her idea for the patch, her idea that she had before the blood drop thing, takes her idea for the patch to that woman professor at Stanford. Thank you. Who is like, nope, you're an idiot. This is a word.

Lori Metcalfe. It's Larry Metcalfe. It's incredible. She's fantastic. And I freaking love her. Playing Phyllis Gardner. Yes. And the scene where she just is like,

I'm not having it. You have not done the work. She's trying to do the same bit with her of like, you know, I just thought for women and try to break in. But, you know, Laurie Beckett's like heard it all a million times. These Jedi tricks are not going to work on me. And I love that because I have definitely heard a lot of women over the years say it is very interesting how there were no women surrounding Elizabeth Holmes.

There were no women on her board. There were no women investors. Like, I don't, I am not a believer that women have like a superpower and a, to, however, every woman I know was like, did you hear that freaking voice? That's absurd. That lady crazy. Immediately.

Yes. Yes. So, good scene. Great scene. So. There was also a fascinating. I would like, before we move on, there was, I'll look it up.

There was a great interview with the woman who did, like, who styled Amanda Safefried in this about how they had to like think about, like, they had to process multiple layers too. It's like, well, we can't just conventionally do what we would normally do. make her look good. But we don't want to make it a joke either. Like, we're not making fun of her. We're trying to, like, simulate how this woman would have thought to present herself. And so it's a, it's like every layer of the complexity they had to really like try to untangle for this. Listen, when you start scaling quickly, your company needs to be run professionally. And Odu is the

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on your first implementation pack. Well done, O-D-O-D-C. To get that $1,000 off. That's O-D-O-O-D-O-D-O-com slash twist. I love these $1,000 offers. Well done, O-D-O-D. I'm just going to give one C, that I think plays into that because I think we have discovered the gender dynamics here are a key

part of the story. Oh, for sure, yeah. I mean, that's interesting, too, that it's Michael Showalter directed all of these episodes. He also did a film last year, The Eyes of Tammy Fay, with Jessica Chastain and Andrew Garfield, which also in some interesting ways plays in this, you know, it's this relationship that in some ways is very conventional in terms of how the genders are presented, but also has this sort of shifting power imbalance. And anyway, it's obviously something that interests him behind this.

Another shout out to Nikki Andres, who played Anna Arola. She was the woman who came from Apple. The designer. The designer. Who immediately figures it out and is immediately like WTF. She fell for it. And all of a sudden, she just figures it out instantly, which, by the way, is what venture capitalists did.

So this story about the Silicon Valley, you know, fell for it. I think what this show is nailing is the group of people who did not fall for it. And then her turning to the dark side and the group of ditts who did fall for it. And for me, as an insider, obviously the scene when she's practicing is like the you talking to me scene, like a deranged person, you know, going into the dark side moment, which he does the voice. But there are two other scenes that I thought were incredibly powerful. that Apple store moment which was the Robert Scobo coming out of the Apple store

in Palo Alto on University Avenue the first Apple store ever and people losing their mind and that was actually Robert Scoboble holding up the first phone I believe there's a picture of Robert Scoboble that's funny look it up Robert Scoboble first iPhone

where he is holding it up like a triumph and it was really the pinnacle of Steve Jobs' influence as like a god you know the entrepreneurial god and they show her And it reminded me, and they kind of slow-moded it where she was losing her mind. You just go, you know, like the sound kind of distorts.

And you could see in her mind it just all clicks. Like she needs to be a god. Yeah. And how does she become a god? You know, and it's kind of like a Hannibal Lecter, Anakin Skywalker, going to the dockshed. I just need to be that. I think it's very much they are like purposefully kind of cribbing from Star Wars. It is that like, oh, this is the power.

There is a Robert's Goldberg screaming, holding up the iPhone. This is the power that I need, you know. This is my journey to obtaining it, yeah. He got the lightsaber. But that was just one scene I noticed. Obviously, the scene that I think is the most powerful. So there he goes killing. It's killing younglings.

The younglings. Poor Grogo. He survived that one. But the scene that resonated with me is when she gets fired or the board wants to fire. And she comes in and the board is like, we're doing a vote of no confidence. And it just was so perfectly done for that moment in history, a group of white guys who have pattern recognition,

controlling the board, taking the company away from the founder, they found out all the stuff in the chaos of that moment. I've been in the chaos of that moment where a company is flipped, everybody's millions of dollars in and the fear and the panic and the who's going to fix this that moment of intensity where she starts crying

and then she's like, oh wait a second I can manipulate all of them. We're right. I do need mentorship. I do need your help. And I think that's the cliffhanger of episode four or it's towards the end. Well, yeah, she tells them at that moment

that she is going to bring in Sunny and then we go see her like have to sell sunny on it. Right. And then he's like, and so he's going to bring $20 million. Yeah. So now she's manipulating the Schengali, who was basically trying to groom her for sex and to manipulate her. She's got him for $20 million.

I know, I don't mean to make him. You don't have your sandwich. But it's true. But it's true. And now she's gone from the manipulated, you know, assaulted, you know, weak thing to now the Sith Lord. And she is going to run the table on all of them. It's in a way triumphant. Oh, it is.

And we don't know. What's so cool about that scene, too, to piggyback is we don't know if that was her plan all along or if sort of she thought of it in her tears, right? It's sort of like she, because she does that crying thing, which works on old guys, like, just saying, works like a charm. You said it, not me. It's true. It's true. Be a blonde girl's crying. My teleprompter is really flesing everything else.

There's like an amazing. I think it's Michael Chey who does a stand-up thing about how like the insane power that white women have to do whatever they want. Like, just send them into Syria. It is Michael Che. It's amazing. And he's like, just send him in. They'll be like, Syria used to be kind of sketchy. But now there's a traitor Joe's. Like, they'll just do whatever they want. But you don't know in that scene whether she's manipulating them on purpose with the tears and has already thought of her sunny plan or if she thinks of it in the moment. And so it's sort of like beautifully subtle in that way too. Like did she. manipulate them all along because if so, like, damn, she's dark.

The show very smartly kind of leaves some levels of ambiguity. Like you were saying with Sunny too, and I think there is definitely an angle of he's grooming her, he's manipulating her, he's taking advantage of being in this situation with this person. But it doesn't, it's not so fine a point on it that it makes him a conventional villain. It still kind of plays like he's a confused, lonely man who's kind of stumbled into this situation as well. Right. And I think that he has imposter syndrome too. Yeah. Right. And I think like one thing that Liz Merriweather, who wrote the series and at Michael Showalter do very well is like leave it

just enough. There's enough open that you can kind of fill in the gaps yourself for who these people really are. Okay. My next question now is aside from the principal characters of Sonny Bonwale and Elizabeth Holmes, who's your favorite? What would you call them? Like on the list supporting the supporting yeah supporting so I want you to think about this for a second because this thing is so rich in supporting characters that I love this prestige TV moment lawn where all of these actors who are working on Sundance films independent films 60 million dollar dramas who can't get work and or want to do interesting work I don't know what the dynamic in Hollywood is but all of a sudden all of these people who you would think would never do

TV are now showing up in these shows and they're so good at their craft. And their magnetism has been burned into our brains from cinema and legendary performances that when they show up on a TV show, for me, as a cinemophile, like all my serotonin, my brain just goes wild, you know, when someone like Stephen Fry or Alan Rock or William Edge Macy come on the screen. So who's your favorite or who's doing the best job? Your favorite? And who's objectively doing the best job in supporting the show?

I mean, you mentioned Josh Pace as Wade, I'm reading it, Mick, Mickleton or Mickleton? Yeah, the Walgreens CFO. He was amazing. I would also like to point out, I thought this was brilliant casting. I don't know if you recognize actor Hart Bockner. He plays Larry Ellison. We meet him on that one scene on his yes. Oh, right.

That was an unbelievable scene. That's Alice from Dye. He's that very memorable character from diehard like Hans, bumpy, I'm your white knight. Totally. Harder Bochner. The Coke fiend, the bearded Coke fiend from diehard who gets shot right away. That's Hart Bochner who's playing Larry Ellison in a really brilliant casting coup. So do casting people do that lawn where they're like, this guy had this role, therefore this person is similar to that role.

it's going to fire some pattern recognition. I honestly don't know, but I do think the way that scene was written, it'd be like, you know, this version of Larry Ellison has Ellis from Diehard Energy. What's Hart Bacher doing? I do feel like there's a reality in which that might have happened. But there is also kind of clever casting against type. Like Michael Ironside is playing Don Lucas. And he's a guy we usually think of he's like a tough guy.

He plays like Army, soldiers. and, you know, drill sergeants or whatever. And yet he's got this, you know, he's an intimidating figure. But he does become kind of more of a kind figure in her life, more of a mentor, someone who helped her. So that that was an interesting twist on. Okay. So who has done the best job and who's your favorite?

Best job and your personal family. Oh, I mean, I liked both of those guys. I also do. I mean, I think Stephen Fry has been really brilliant in the whole show. And like, especially in the last, the most recent episode we've seen where he sort of gets fired and he's got this little kind of sad arc. I thought he really nailed it. So he's your MVP? Yeah. And then who's your personal favorite? I mean, I think Amanda Seafreed is, is the star. But after those, after those. Yeah. I mean,

other than those two, that's also fun to see William H. Macy. I don't know. Who knows? What do you got, Molly? Who is your like doing the best job supporting and then just like a personal favorite? Yeah, I mean, I'm with you on the William H. Macy. He's just incredible. I, don't, I also like, I sort of don't want to discount the mom, Elizabeth Marvel. Yes, she's great too. Like, she's only in those, you know, first episodes really intensely, but I just think she did such a great job at walking that line between like, kind of awful, but also there. Like, it's, you know, it's, I don't know. She sort of reminded me of like, when I was growing up, we'd be like, grandma, I love you.

And my grandma would be like, okay. Right. Just like kind of uncomfortable, but I was there. So I think she did. That was just a teeny little performance that I super appreciated. And then honestly, every time William H. Macy comes on with his just like malevolent disheveled energy, I am 100% riveted. I'm just like, who acts like that? Also, shout out to Mary Lynn Raskom from 24.

Like, I just flashed back all the way to 24 and was like, oh, I want to watch that show all over again. So I give you three. You're welcome. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. I can't choose. you know like under the radar Ucoresh

who plays Rakesh who does the lying on the test and that moment where they're like trying to get the Pfizer contract or whatever they're traveling internationally and they're you know it doesn't work and they decide to lie

is like a very dark side you know crossing the chasm like you can't go back from here we've just gone over the rubric and you know his like actually conceding to that was a very underrated moment, but I think Stephen Fry

is really creating the heart and soul of the show and like the moral compass. And so he's my personal favorite, but I'm going to give my best supporting thus far to the pairing of Josh Pace as the CFO and

Alan Ruck as the startup obsessed of... Dr. J. Dr. J. Dr. J. It's funny because he's not a basketball player. That's what makes the joke funny when Elizabeth Holmes explains the joke. Dr. Jay was a famous basketball player.

Those two and that moment is just so in such a great indictment of startup culture, I think, like an appropriate one where people are like, well, they're doing things differently here. They're doing things differently here. And it's like, the guy who's like, yeah, but I need to see the technology, the lab. guy. I don't know who plays the lab guy who's insisting on seeing the technology.

Oh, that's what Summer from Madman. Yes. He is. Yeah. Oh, the whole cast, by the way, is just like a it's just a con on every episode is like, oh, it's that guy. Oh, it's that guy. Oh, it's that guy. Oh, it's that guy. It's like a that guy fest. And I'm just going to say, I'm going to tell you who's going to steal the show is when John Carrey Roo shows up. I'm not sure who's playing him. But when John Carrey shows up, that's going to be the big one. Yeah. Would it have been better with Kate McKinnon, Lon? I mean, I don't know. I think, you know, she's a good actress. Like, she probably could have gotten the voice and the look and whatever, but I don't,

Amanda Safefried's just killing it. I don't know if I would put anybody. What about, you know, Adam McKay and Jennifer Lawrence are still circling. They've got their bad blood movie about this same topic still in development. So I think, do you think she's going to be as? good as at Elizabeth Holmes. I think maybe they cancel that one. Yeah, I feel like this is feels like. Because she did it so well. Who wants to

come after that performance? Yeah, I feel like this kind of tells the story. And that's what happened with, you know, there's that Joe and Carol Peacock show about Tiger King. And there was going to be an Amazon show as well about Tiger King with Nicholas Cage as Joe Exotic, but they canceled

that one because Peacock got their first. So I feel like that might happen with this as well. It's a shame for J-Law too because I think she would have done a pretty good and maybe still will do a pretty good job. But Amanda Safreid owns this so much that I think for me at least in my mind, I won't ever even be able to differentiate them. Like my mental picture of Elizabeth Holmes just became Amanda Safe-Reed. It's tough for sure. I mean, I'm sure it's a different take.

And like that one's based on John Kerry Rood's book. This one's based on the ABC News podcast. So I'm sure it's a different take on the material as well. but yeah it's a little weird to have two big high profile versions of the same story. It's like those two Firefest documentary. You just watch them both and compare. Yeah, I did watch both of but I don't remember either.

They've kind of blended into it. Because the Netflix one was co-produced by the F. Jerry guys who also worked on Firefest. So the Hulu one is almost an expose on the Netflix one in a weird way. Right. Last year I interviewed Coda's CEO, Shishir on episode 1160, and we spoke about the productivity

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CodA.orgia.0 slash twist. Coda.com. And get that $1,000 credit now. I don't know how long it's going to last. All right. Should we move on super pumped? We have to move on to Super Pump. Got to talk about Super Pump.

I am far too close to this. And watching. Kyle Chandler play Bill Gurley and Joseph Gore-Leff and play T-K makes it impossible for me to stay in the show. And so now I've learned what Pete Bahara or

Steve Cohen when they watch billions, their problem with, they probably can't watch the show because they're constantly being taken out of it by knowing the principles and saying this is nothing like the reality. I don't know. How do you feel on?

I don't know these people. I mean, obviously I've worked in tech startups and startup companies. I don't know any of the principles involved in the show. But it does have a realism problem. It feels more like, I was saying to Molly, I think before we went live, to me, this feels more like Wall Street or Wolf of Wall Street or Glenn Gary Glenn Ross or boiler room than any real workplace I've ever been in.

Like, it feels like a movie version of these events. But not as good as any of those also. Not right. It's not Glenn Gary. David Mamet didn't write this bad boy. But you get what I'm saying. In that it feels like an attempt to sort of riff on that style of storytelling or the social network. I mean, that that Fincher film and Sorkin's style in general, I feel like they're kind of cribbing for it.

People always say that the social network is the best film of the 21st century or something or some people say that or it's in the top 10. I do not say that. Why are so many people obsessed with that film and the screenwriting and the dialogue? which to me feels almost too over the top or overproduced. Am I right? Am I that Sorkin style of people don't actually speak like that in the real world? Yeah, I mean, Sorkin, he's a, like, he's a playwright. And I mean, it's all, there's a theatricality to everything.

Like, certainly that Chicago 7 movie and the Lucy and Desi movie had it too. And West Wing is very, like, they're all at work giving monologues to one another too. So I think you kind of, that kind of comes with the territory. I do think it's a pretty good screenplay because it's so structurally like complicated. Like you're jumping around in time. It's multiple lawsuits. It's flashbacks. And yet it's always like very clear.

It's never confusing. Like you get exactly what the beats are. I think it's a good movie. But I don't think it's like definitive. Like this is the only way to tell a story about a startup. And it has influence. Like every other startup story now feels like it has. to like nod to what social

network did in some way. Got it. And I think this is like, we were saying this before the show, this feels like poor man's Aaron Sorkin, the writing. Like it's so forced. It's such a sort of an obvious attempt. I have to go back though and say, I won't hear a word against the West Wing.

Unfortunately, it's just after that. I don't hate it. It's a, you know, or a sports night, but after that Sorkin became a caricature of himself. And then now, Super Pumped is like a caricature of the caricature. that Orkins, Aaron Sorkin became. And it's just so forced.

Like, there is nothing authentic feeling about it at all. So I feel like even if you didn't know, even if you don't know, like, I know the characters in a very removed way and it still is just like, ugh, it's all, it's crazy. It's to cover them. Yes. They're not your friends. It's cringy. Like, it is actually cringy to me.

It just, it feels, it feels a little, it feels a little on the nose. So that's what you're always trying to sort of avoid when you're telling this kind of like, we're going to give you the real behind-the-scenes story of what really goes down in these Silicon Valley. Like, you have to, if you're going for that kind of authenticity, you have to, like, land it. It has to really feel like this is what these guys would be saying to each other in these rooms. And it feels a little bit too, like, explanation. Like, you're bringing the audience in and like, here's what a deal is. And it's like, no, no, no, these guys would just be talking.

They're all immersed in this world. Yeah. And volicious. is what I, is a word I may have invented for the surrog stolen from. Yeah, I just like the scene where TK. And drives Bill Gurley home in a Uber and they're like outside of his mansion and, you know, it's a rolling gate and they're like, you got rid of the cabs just so that we get picked up. And he's like, yeah, and you did this.

And it's like this like 4D chess is going on. And like, I was there for all this stuff. And he's like, I'm your VC. Am I your VC? I think you're my VC. And I'm like. Like, this is the, not how these conversations happen. Right.

Because for these guys, this is work. This is like their job. It's not this like, it's not a movie scene that's like, so, you know, special and like dialoguey and theatrical. It's more like, what's the valuation? Okay, how did you come to the valuation and then. I'm so glad you're saying this too because I did have this moment of like, wait, is that, am I supposed to be doing that? Like, am I supposed to be like, finish my sentence? And I, and I get that you can't go for.

Mundanity. Like, that's not what people want. They don't want to watch a show that feels like a day at work for people. Like, it has to feel exciting and dramatic in some way. But it's a balance. You can't go too far. It feels like what this show feels like, which is cartoony, like an over-the-top, overblown version of all of these conversations. Yeah. It's literally, I was just realizing it's like two of my best friends are the two principles. Like, literally. And I think that's why it's just, just so impossible to watch. Well, then, okay, I don't want to put you on the spot then. Okay, no, go ahead. At all. Go ahead. Put on the spot. You put on the spot.

Whereas Amanda Safeway does, the dropout is nuanced and you see her developing. And yes, she turns into the dark side, but there's like some mannequin there in the beginning. This portrayal of TK has like no Anakin whatsoever, right? It's like he is an awful sociopath from word one. Yeah. No one really gets shading on this show. Not at all. TK least of all, yeah.

Least of all. And so do you feel like that's a little, do you feel like that's unfair? I do. You know, TK is a very, uh, caring, emotional, sensitive person. That is totally left out of that.

What people don't know is behind the scenes like, this was, I'm not going to talk about any conversations I've had or anything, but like this was not easy on him. He struggled. He wanted to be a great leader. And, you know, he was taking on

this wartime stance because there was no choice. If he did not go to war with the mafia, the people who own the medallions, the regulators, the regulators who were in fact corrupt, like that was actually true. The special interest, there would be no Uber and there would be no advancement of society

and he really had no choice but to fight a war in every city. And so once you get into that wartime mentality, yes, It was a war stance company, but so was Airbnb. And they had to fight the war with regulators in every city who were like, the way we interpret this ancient breakfast renting your room law is this. And they're like, okay, we're doing that. And they're like, no, you're not.

Here's my real Travis versus TK on the show question. Yeah. Is he constantly making very obscure, intricate movie and literary references? Is that drawn from real life? Because it feels very writerly in the show. But then I thought, well, I don't know the real guy. Maybe he will say things like, I'm much more of an Emerson than a Thoreau in this case, you know? That's a real quote.

At one point, they're like, this could be something you'd go to jail for it. He goes, hey, just so you know, I'm more Emerson than Thoreau. In this case, that's not something I've ever heard a guy say in a startup company type scenario. They were a lot. I don't know that guy, maybe. A lot of weird literary reference. and especially the first episode where I was just like, am I dumb? There's also a scene where he's talking to his girlfriend and he calls her a Lawrence Dodd and she goes,

you're no Freddie Quell. Those are the characters from Paul Thomas Anderson's The Master. Yeah, that's obscure folks. Yeah, no, that's not TK. What they did get right was they, the guy who wrote the book, listened to the two-hour interview I did with TK famously on this podcast. Sure. And a lot of the stuff in that podcast and the three-hour one I did with Chris.

Saka are in the show. So the wee tennis thing comes directly from the Saka interview where he was the number one wee tennis player. And like when the business insider person who wrote like the business insider 10,000 piece said like I basically listened to TK on that special this week in startups to our episode. And that's the bones of the architecture of it. And that's where Mike Isaac got it from.

So a lot of it came from that. And so there are some moments in there that are true like the wee tennis and, you know, they did have some big parties in Vegas. and there were journalists who were, you know, obsessed with getting TK and, you know, all that stuff. So, um, and the guy who plays Emil Michael, that's that character is nothing like a meal. It's so one dimensional.

It's just like he shows up and all of a sudden we have no idea what his motivations are except I guess we assume money from his occasional remarks. But he just shows up and is like suddenly this weird like, toadish slash the wolf cleanup character. Right. And you don't know why or care. That's kind of what I'm saying. Like, yeah, like the dropout's interested in the people.

It's like this story happened, but it's really interesting because of all of these odd, interesting people and how they created this story. And these things happen because of who these people are. And I think Super Pump is much more like, I'm going to give you the lowdown on what happened. Like, here's what happens with VCs that you don't get to hear about. It's trying to be like cool. and it's trying to be about those power dynamics. And I just, it's, it's less interesting to me on some level. Trying to explain the story of Uber might not be a great story to tell,

whereas telling the story of Elizabeth Holmes might be a great story to tell. But I do feel like, Travis Colonick's story is a good story, like a dramatic story. Regardless of how you feel about him as a person, it's a rise and fall. It's a very dramatic thing that happened to this guy. And so I do feel like there's a good story to tell there. I just feel like they're focusing on the like, oh, we'll get Tarantino to explain the whole thing. Like it's like casino and they're trying to do like Scorsese or whatever.

And it's like it's not that kind of thing. Like I, you know, I just, it's not cool in that way. It's like give us the real. Give us the real dynamic. Yeah, it's not cool enough to be like, here's how a casino works. Let me show you with those voiceovers. Anytime they're doing voiceovers to me in a movie when voiceovers happen. it's like, okay, this is probably going to fail.

Like, if you have to resort. And sometimes voiceovers work, but I don't know, for me, it's always the red flag in a film. Like, we can't tell this story through characters and scenes, so we got to resort to something to advance the storyline. It's a type of. And a voiceover with the F word in it every time, right? Like, every time the voiceover comes on, it's so Quentin Tarantino, it's like, if you're not doing it, you're in the fucking way. And I'm just like, oh, okay, Quinn. Like, I feel like what's really forced about this show is the BDE.

Like, I don't need this much BDE coming at me from my screen right now. Like, I'm just trying to have a glass of wine and unwinded. Like, it's relaxed. Yeah, it's a little try hard. It's trying to impress you and like make you think this is like badass and cool. And what's better than a million dollars, a billion dollars, you know? A billion dollars, cool. It's like, yeah.

And the plane scene where they're like, here's Bill Gurley at his hangar. And he's talking about like, rich. Spartan's plane. He's like, well, what about Larry Page's playing? And I was just like, literally nobody talks like this about planes in the valley. Like people are like, I have a plane. I got a net jets. I got this, whatever.

It's like, yeah, okay, I'll see you at, you know, Ark Basel, whatever. You need a ride. It's much more like talking about like transportation than talking about like the model of the plane. You know, it talks about the model of the plane? People without planes. Yeah. Like people who don't have, I don't have a plane. Yeah, I'm going to tell you all the different things about the different models.

Once you have a plane, you're kind of like, yeah, it gets me from point A to point B. And that's it. That's my plane. And that's it. That's like, I would have a test a lot of line. The Tinder swim, I're never talking about his plane.

You just say, show up and he's got a plane. Exactly. And he's like, producer Nick's like, wait, just like you? It's like, exactly. Everybody I know,

literally the people who don't have planes are online trying to pick one. Then once you have one, it's like they're all the same. They cost $6,000 an hour to operate. You have to have a million dollars a year to burn. If you want to have one, the end. And you can get somewhere fast and it's not worth it, but it's pretty cool.

It's a status thing. Come on. Well, there's a, I would say the plain thing is it's not necessarily a status thing. It's, um, what do I do with all this money now? Right. Because I'm going to be dead soon. Which is another version of a status thing? Well, it's like, okay, I'll be dead in 20 years.

There's X amount of dollars in the bank. I make this much off of the interest on it. And okay, I could budget a million dollars for this a year. and I make that off of my interest or more of ten times that off my interest on my fling so why not get it because I'll be dead soon and I can go on cool trips and not have to go there. That's it, beginning and end.

How about the depiction of... Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I was just saying at some point you cross the rubric where you're like, yeah, it's not going to financially ruin me so I'll just get it, right? I was going to ask, my last thing was, have you ever met Larry Page

and what did you think of the depiction by Ben Feldman also of mad, man. I didn't see the, I'm not caught up, so I didn't see the last episode. Oh, okay. Did he play him as like very introverted and having the vocal chord issue where he's raspy? It felt, it felt cartoonish to me, but I have not met Larry Page, so I was curious as to how realistic it was. I've had many hour-long conversations with Larry Page.

It feels very much like, uh, Wackadoo Silicon Valley. Like Mark Rye Lansing don't look up. Like, oh, you know those head in the clouds, wacky tech guys where they can't focus for three minutes and they're off in their own world. It's incredibly focused. Most people would say he's super introverted and he talks in a low voice. It's extremely cartoonish. They don't go heavily into the voice thing. But I will say I do like that scene because it's the only time you actually see.

are absurd cartoon cut out of TK have his bubble punctured by someone who's clearly so much more brilliant than him and asks only two questions. And just like, two questions and both of them are like a murder. Yeah, who can see through him instantly. Like that's his, it's his Lari Metcalf moment where it's just like, here's a person who's not going to fall for any of your ridiculous nonsense. Totally. Is there a best scene or a best performance for either of you?

I'll ask, what's your favorite scene? in Super Pumpt and the best performance. Because we just went through unbelievable performances in Super Pump, and we were falling over each other to try to figure out, you know, how many Emmys Amanda Safered is going to win and people's choice awards. And yeah, any standout performances for anybody? I mean, I think Kyle Chandler, I think Kyle Chandler has been pretty good. And I think he's got the most to play with so far.

Joseph Gordon Leavitt, that that version of Travis Kalon, it's very one note. It's just like, he's incredibly driven, he's gleefully amoral, he's very aggressive, and like, we get it. And like, he's doing a good job of playing that, but that's all there is to really play. And I think that at least with Kyle Chandler, they've given Bill Gurley, he's, he's conflicted. He wants the money. He wants the status. He thinks this kid is probably going to be effective, but he were starting, especially in the later episode, I think the third episode, he's starting to feel more like, do I really want my name

attached to this? Do I really want this to be my avatar in this world? And at least like, there's meat on that bone, I think, for him to play. So John Bass, as Garrett Camp, terrible. I mean, it's not the actors. I think like, Kerry Bichet is who's Austin. She's like the driver recruiter. She's actually pretty good, actually. She's doing good. And I, like, I've certainly worked with people like that. And I feel like that is a type of. person that you meet at startup. So like the true believer, you know, who becomes like the, the trusted lieutenant. It's just, again, it's like a little one, like, that's all she is in that show. We don't have any other shades for that person. There's one scene. The only human scene I have

encountered in this whole, in all of the watching of this show actually involves her where she is on one of these trips where she's trying to recruit people and or maybe she's in San Francisco and the drivers are like harassing her, the taxi drivers. And she goes to her hotel room and opens the mini bar to get a drink out of it. And you realize that she's a recovering alcoholic and there's no booze in the mini fridge. And she calls TK. And he's like, hey, thanks for that. Right.

That's actually a good moment. I actually, I noticed that moment as well. That was a lovely moment. Because it's a, it's a detail that conflicts with what we've seen. We've seen Travis as he's like, you know, a sociopath. Right. And then here's this scene that like, like, No, no. He cares about her. He knows her.

Totally humanizing. Yeah. For both of them. Like, both of them get to be a human for a minute. Right. And it's all too brief. Like, it's all too brief. And then it's gone. That's what they needed a lot more of. Less bombastic pearl jam needle drops and montages of traffic in San Francisco and like less of that over the top stuff. And more human moments. What was the video game? What was the video game? I kind of like that moment because I thought that's authentic to Travis's personality. he does look at all this as a video game to be mastered.

So I did think that that was an interesting concept and I like the risk taking on it, but I don't think that it worked. But I don't know. Did it work for either of you? Like, I'm taking New York. No, I'm not more alienating. I mean, beating up Mayor de Blasio at a fighting game.

Like, you hope that that stuff comes through in the subtext so you don't have to like show it. Like, yeah. Yeah. So is my kind of version of like voiceover is dumb. Is there any of? Yeah. A voiceover working really well in a movie because it destroyed the original added a blade runner. I brought up Scorsese is like the king of this, where it's like casino is wall-the-wall people talking at you on the soundtrack.

But it like, you know, it's the flavor of the movie. And it does. It feels like he gives you that experience of this is like a gangster grabbing you by the shoulder and like taking you through his world. And you do it does feel like that peek behind the curtain. It's the vibe they wanted for this. They just don't quite get there. But a lot of the time, I think the Scorsese stuff is a relative rarity. Most of the time, it's a crutch.

It's like, I don't know how to get this information across to the viewer any other way. So I'm going to have somebody say it in voiceover. And then I'm going to say I love. Who else? No, I was going to say, just the greatest performance in the show is? Oh, well. Well, I was to say I love Kyle Chandler a lot. Like, who doesn't love Kyle Chandler?

As an actor. As an actor. Right. But if I were Bill Gurley, I would be a little annoyed at being portrayed as basically like dopey dog who's always a little bit, you know, a step behind or like getting cut out of the loop. And why is he wearing that pixies shirt in front of the airplanes? Like that was so, that was such a weird, obvious like clunker that I'm like, I have a dilemma because I love him. and I want him to just shout like clear eyes, full hearts can't lose at TK,

but instead he just comes off like, derper, yeah, I love Elizabeth Shoe in anything she does. Yeah. And playing TK's mom. She's very sweet. I don't know if it's super accurate. I mean, I've met TK's mom a couple times, but.

But it's just like, yeah, even that, it's like we've met her, we've seen them together a few times. She's supportive, but I don't, like, what, there doesn't seem to be really like a there. Like, she doesn't really have much. to play. I mean, I thought Cal Chandler was the best performance in the show, but I agree that kind of

because of, you know, the take is kind of straightforward and simple. He's kind of, he's kind of in this role of like, well, he's the guy that didn't get how bad things were going to get. And they kind of make him, he gets stuck with sort of as the Patsy. Like, well, he didn't real, you know, he's got that line early on where it's like the secret to you've got to recognize all founders are David Koresh. And you just got to get out before they go full Jones. town or and whatever,

whatever that line is. That's not something anybody would ever say. Exactly. Like that, to me, that doesn't feel. I can't imagine any VC I've ever met talking about their companies or their founders that way.

And it sets him up as like, well, now you're having him say early on that like, well, this is his failure. He doesn't get out in time. Like, it kind of sets up this really simple dynamic of like,

he just got the timing wrong. That's why this happened. Yeah. So they have it, folks. Girlie so smart. Yeah. Clearly, there's a winner here in terms of the shows.

The show only works if we believe that Bill Gurley's very smart. That's the whole dynamic of it. He's got to be in real life, of course. I'm just talking about it in the show. I'm just saying, like, they need to do a better job of establishing that because they basically set him up to be the dope in this scenario. And like, we, the audience, have to be impressed by his intelligence for the drama to play. Of course, in real life, Bill Gurley is very smart.

Nobody would ever deny. So we will be back in two weeks with Lon, hopefully, if he has time and his schedule for us. Let's do it. We have to get him a gift bag or something here, Nick, or something. I got a pie cake and I'm fine. Oh, yeah, I sent a pie cake. You got, we were part of the pie cake. I got a Valentine's Day pie cake and it was delicious.

That was, I was like, I'm going for the stunt gift for Valentine's Day. I got on Goldbelly, and I was like, wait a second. a pie with a cheesecake on top of it with then like a red velvet cake. Right. Yeah, it's a red velvet on top and then a New York cheesecake in the middle and then a chocolate pecan pie on the bottom. And I sent it to everybody who worked for me

for Valentine's Day. And I just put a little note, how much do we love this team or something Trumpish? And, uh, okay, how much do we love our team? We love the pie cake and don't we folks? How much do we love a pie cake? And I just literally was like, what would Trump say?

any size of pie cake. Wow, didn't see that coming, but good job, guys, good impressions. Did you get the pie cake? You were here for, you were here for a month.

Yeah. I got mine a week later because I was out of 10. It's like a nine pound. It's so gratuitous. But wait do you see what I'm going to do for, yeah,

Memorial Day. I got to love this job. Is it Memorial Day or Labor Day? What's coming up first? Memorial Day. Memorial. Memorial and July 4th, you guys are totally screwed

because I'm, it's literally. They've got a pie cake in for every holiday. I don't know if. you saw the insert. No, I'm definitely not going pie cake again. That was so gratuitous and over the top. It's like a one time.

I was like, is this a gag gift? Or is this thing going to taste? It actually tasted good. It was very good. It was a problem. I shared it with a lot. It was way too much for even a few people. Well, sending a bunch of people who, you know, probably the average person has a 1.5 person household.

You know, in our companies, maybe two. It's a lot so much. So like, sending them a cake would be like, okay, we'll get through this. but sending them essentially three cakes stacked on top of each other, I couldn't get through it. And I got three Raptor daughters who eat every, they're basically eating whatever fortune I'm amassed to this point. And I need to keep working because of the amount of blueberries and blackberries these kids eat.

You can't get a plane because of the berries. Exactly. I can have a plane right now. It's all going to berry fuel. All right, Lon. So we'll have Lon back either next week or the week after to go over more episodes. And then the next show we've all agreed to watch is Ben Stiller's Tour de Forest on Apple TV Plus.

Severance. Severance. And I purposely did not watch it in real time because this weekly thing kills me. I like to binge watch. I'm an Ozark guy. I want all my episodes at once. If I have time for three episodes, two, 1.5, I want the optionality. I think you've got five severances to catch up on at this point.

So there's a few left to go in season one, but you've got, you plenty to binge already have been released. That's what I'm looking for is something I can binge. So let's do the first, we'll say the first. we'll say the first three or four episodes of sure I mean I'm all caught up it's it's very it is like troubling like uh mind mind f uh sci-fi

for sure I love mind-effing sci-fi so I don't know if it's like super get me out of the BDE friendly like real world start up job because you have to like stop and like oh it's kind of like you sing in and have a couple weird dreams about it yeah it's it's like there is something about it that is particularly

like anxiety inducing and troubling for me, but I love, I'm obsessed with it. It's okay, because this is what's happening. It's polarizing on Twitter because Ben Stiller has decided to go full engagement. Because Ben and I follow each other. I know if I mentioned that four times, but we got a little bromance going, but six times. I'm watching him because, you know, the algorithm if you interact with each other, like, you know, kind of surfaces this on Twitter. And I'm watching his replies. He's replying to people who don't like it.

He's like, well, maybe you should find another show. Maybe you should do this or, you know, it's okay. Like, you don't have to stop Mel for everybody. Like, I'm like, is that Ben Stiller going full contact in Twitter? I like it. Wow. I like it. So, shout out.

He's now Ben Stiller. He got rid of Red Hour Ben. He went to just at Ben Stiller. But he's proud of the show because he's doing the full circuit. He's on like every podcast, doing live speaking gigs. He executive produced and directed, I think the first two or three. And it's a lot of like Patricia Arquette, who's like a frequent collaborator of his, she's in it. fantastic.

Oh, I saw that Danamoire, which I love. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I like Danamo. It's so good. I'm excited to talk to you. All right.

There we go. All right. Okay, Lon, thanks for coming on. We'll see you next time. Inside.com slash streaming and at Lonz on Twitter. L-O-N-S. These are illegal Twitter. Lons.

See you next time. All right. Thank you so much to Lon Harris for joining us. We're going to have him back in a week or two to do our this week in streaming segments on Thursdays. Great job. You can follow him on Twitter. com slash L-O-N-S. And,

At the end of the show, Molly sat down for a quick interview with Nick McHenry of OneShop, one of our investments. That's right. We talked about building in the e-commerce and retail space and how he plans on scaling what is sometimes a pretty tough business, but maybe not for him. It's a great interview, so enjoy. All right, stick with us. Nick McHenry from One Shop.

Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me, Molly. All right. So remind us about your launch journey, which accelerator cohort were you in and what was what happened. Yeah, I mean, we were in launch class of 2021, class 21 in 2021. So with February 21, we went through the launch accelerator. It was great. We raised a $1.1 million seed round coming out of the accelerator, probably through the syndicate and then also through outside investors. We play second

in the launch rankings, and we just had an amazing experience. That's great. Well, I want to talk about where you are now, but first, remind everybody what One Shop does. Yeah, absolutely. So, One Shop is an Omnichannel Communication or Commerce platform where we facilitate for physical retail stores the post-sale communication and product recommendations. So we facilitate text and email communication from either a salesperson level or from a local store level, of which customers can engage in a really fun shopping experience where they can get localized recommendations, they can favor things, they can shop those things, they can pick up in store or buy e-commerce, and really just stay connected and get that physical in-store experience

anywhere outside the store or on their couch. You connect stores with customers directly through these multiple channels of communication and then you help them personalize those communications. Yep, exactly. So traditionally pre-1 shop, there was really two forms of communications that you could possibly get in any retail experience. You get the top-level brand communication, which is standard marketing. So the blasts, either text or email from the store or really more the brand, the top-level

company, or you might get lucky and spend a lot of money at a luxury retail store and get a personal text message from a stylist at that sales floor. One shop sort of sits in the middle where you still get consistent, you know, personalized communication, except it's at scale. So you need to spend $10 of the store. You have access to that store's personnel. You've access to keeping up to date on what's arriving at that store, as opposed to just a total brand broadcast level. So as we're talking, those who cannot see us, you are, you've got a rack of clothing and a mannequin behind you. And the way you're describing this sounds like you're pretty deep in the operations of these retailers. Is that true? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we are very, very deep.

I mean, I travel a lot, spend a lot of time on retail sales floor because really our mission and our mantra is taking the in-store experience anywhere. So, you know, very literally, when you shop online, you get one experience and when you shop in store, you get another experience. Those two things are completely separate. They're completely separate departments at retailers. If you want to get to support, you get one support online. If you go to a store, you'll get another person. And we're really trying to unify those things and create what we call true Omnichannel experience. So in order to do that, we really need to put ourselves in the shoes of the retail experience. So in my home office and my actual office, we literally

have a point of sale set up so we can experience when we're building our product, what it feels like to check out at the register, what it feels like to opt in, what it feels like to leave that store and go home and get that first text message to go through our opt-in flow and really put ourselves in the shoes of the customer. I mean, you are literally describing my Athleta hell specifically. Why are, you know, why are retailers so bad at this? Like, what, you know, what did they do that created this opportunity for you to unify these parts of their business? Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's a complicated problem because really like, you know, retailer has been saying that word Omnichannel for a long time. Basically,

for a decade now, the buzzword has been Omni Channel, Omni Channel, Omni Channel. But you essentially have- I feel like we should back up, which, what does that mean? I mean, I know what it means, but right, they've been saying it for so long that everybody, it became like a word with no meaning. Yeah. So, I mean, Omnichannel, what it should mean is a singular experience of the customer, whether it's a physical experience or just shopping online. It's one continuous experience across many different channels, at Instagram shopping or online or in store, how it's actualized is just saying, you know, e-commerce and in-store, basically the

combination of those two things. Right. But what hasn't happened is... With a little like a side of spam here and there. Exactly. With a side of spam here and there, 100%. And what you're... actually interacting with traditionally is three departments at a retailer and they don't talk to

each other. The e-commerce experience, the marketing team slash support, and then the physical stores themselves. And these become bifurcated experiences because they're really not talking to each other. They say Omnichannel, basically combining these together, but it really is three separate teams, three separate experiences. And it's just been hard, even with COVID, especially with COVID, to really create the operational or software excellence to create. that universal experience. What size retailers do you work with? So we work with anything from Main Street to some of the largest enterprise retailers

you could possibly imagine. The reality of it is, is that even in enterprise retailer, because our approach is hyper-personalized, actually is a basically combination of several small retailers. Most retailer, even if you go to a mall, is inline retail, which are traditionally 1,000 to 2,000 square foot stores staff by, let's say, anywhere from 1 to, I mean, Nowadays, it's really one to five people. If you walk into an Abercrombie, there's really only four to five people working traditionally on the floor.

So each store we see as their own individual retailer amongst this larger brand. So our ideal customer fit is really, we say like 10 to 50, but we do work with single store mom and pop retailers upwards of, you know, 50 to 100 locations. How does your customer acquisition work on both sides, you know, the consumer and the retailer? Yeah. So we really focus on the retailer themselves. because we essentially acquire the customer through the retailer. So because we integrate with their point of sale and e-commerce,

we don't necessarily need to focus on that. They are opting into a one-shop experience, which means that the customer can get communication through one shop, through any retailer they'd like to shop at. But we really focus on acquiring the retailer themselves, integrate with their point-of-sale, e-commerce, CRM, ERP, wherever we need to go. And then through our communication channel,

start to acquire those customers through them. And then how does the business model, Is it just the retailer paying you for the service? Or do you also get sort of a cut of what customers are buying? Yeah. So we have a hybrid model. So we charge a similar to say most e-commerce platforms, we'll have a SaaS fee that gets you up and running on One Shop.

And then we will also monetize primarily the payments flow. So we'll monetize any of this hybrid commerce channel, which is any localized messages sent through us and any product recommendations sent through us. We take a small percentage of that sale as well. Gotcha. Are you also in the process of Gabby? like super cool data about what is most effective?

Like, how is text messaging working compared to Instagram? We have very cool data when it comes to all of these things because we see everything. We see the inventory flow. We see the customer in-store purchase. We see the online purchase. We see their marketing messages and we see their one shop communication. So we see, you know, exactly what their purchase patterns are across several retailers, which messages when work and in which way, especially with, you know, what types of products

that customers actually wanting. Because we can see across a large data set what they're not just buying, but in one shop, we have a, let's just call it like tinderification effect where you can favor things or thumbs down things to sort of, you know, give us further data on your personal preferences. So we combine that with sales history, size history, all of that to really get interesting data on even forecasting what, you know, you might not even know yourself, you might be interested in. Right. Do you imagine a universe in which you can monetize that data and use that pretty efficiently

and for retailers also? So I would say we already are monetizing it in the sense that we monetize the transactions. So the more transactions we can drive for our retailers, the more revenue our retailers get, and the more revenue our company gets. So our focus is on really just driving more transaction revenue through those channels.

So by doing that, we have a data scientists in our team that does the algorithm for the product recommendations by looking at the messaging flow and what messages work. We're really just focused on aligning our incentives with the retailer. So if we both drive transaction revenue together, we all win. Yep, totally. All right, well, speaking of winning,

tell us how things have been in the last 12 months of business. It sounds like you continue to accelerate, no pun intended. Yeah, no, so it's been great. I mean, we are trying to keep up with growth, to be honest with you. I mean, when we joined the accelerator,

we literally had, you know, well less than 100 stores in the platform. We had about $7,000 in monthly recurring revenue. We just passed $30,000 a month in revenue, and that's actually throttled growth because we have retailers waiting to be onboarded onto the platform. And we just continue to grow from there. We're in over 225 stores across the U.S. and Canada.

And we're super excited for what, 2022 as in store. Yeah, I mean, let me help brag a little more over Forex and MRR growth. You're servicing over 200 stores drove over $10 million in sales from communication and recommendations from One Shop. So your only barrier now is you're just too successful. You're just too good at this. Yeah, I mean, listen, it's a barrier. But I would say the bigger barrier, to be honest with you, I mean, it's not even a one

shop barrier. It's that retail has had, as most people know, if you haven't been, you know, alive the last couple of years, it's had to go at it. You know, it's basically in the last 24 months had to forego a period where there was no natural foot traffic to a period where literally everybody overnight decided to go to physical stores the next day and shop where they had no staff to even literally facilitate the people coming into their store, just sort of this actualization of where we're at now. So a bigger macro challenge for us is just to continue to adapt to the changing retail environment. Moving from, you know, everyone's talking about e-commerce in 2020 to now kind of this backlash

against e-commerce and a really heavy focus on physical retail in 2022. So we're just sort of ebbing and flowing with the entire industry, I'd say, when that comes to it. Fascinating. All right. Well, I can tell you I'm never giving up my e-commerce and I know I'm not alone. Nick McHenry. Nick McHenry's CEO of One Shop.

Thanks so much for checking in with us. Absolutely. Thanks so much, Molly. Hey everyone. Producer Nick here. I want to tell you about the SaaS Syndicate. If you're a founder of a SaaS company with a product and market, our investment team wants to talk to you.

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