This Week in Startups - Should Apple buy Disney? Plus: Apple's $1B blockbuster bet and more with Lon Harris | E1831

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

This Week in Startups is brought to you by… Masterworks. The first company allowing investors exposure into the blue-chip artwork asset class. TWIST listeners can skip the waitlist by going to ⁠https://masterworks.com/twist⁠ and using promo code TWIST. Codecademy. Build the future you want to see with Codecademy. Codecademy Pro helps you learn everything you’ll need to shape what comes next in the tech space. Try it free for 14 days. Visit Codecademy.com/TWiST LinkedIn Jobs. A business is only as strong as its people, and every hire matters. Go to LinkedIn.com/TWIST to post your first job for free. Terms and conditions apply. * Today’s show: Lon Harris joins Jason to discuss Apple’s major push into Hollywood blockbusters (1:38), their anti-Netlix, “auteur” approach (4:27), updates on the WGA+SAG-AFTRA strikes (29:11), film recommendations (46:10), and much more! * Time stamps: (0:00) Lon Harris joins Jason (1:38) Apple’s major push into Hollywood blockbusters (4:27) Apple's anti-Netflix, “auteur” approach (6:11) Why is this timely? Approaches to film marketing and releases (13:56) Masterworks - Skip the waitlist to invest in fine art at https://www.masterworks.com/twist (15:21) Breaking down the budget for Apple's Killers of the Flower Moon (18:13) Why is Netflix taking the opposite approach (20:12) Sequels and audience burnout (21:25) Movie budgets: Napoleon, Barbie, Oppenheimer (27:45) Codecademy - Try Codecademy Pro FREE for 14 days at http://codecademy.com/TWiST (29:11) Update on the WGA strike and AI's place in film (38:01) LinkedIn Jobs - Post your first job for free at https://linkedin.com/twist (39:31) Update on SAG-AFTRA negotiations (43:53) Understanding the "auteur" approach and the significance behind original IP (46:10) Film and Show Recommendations: Fall of the House of Usher, The Mill, The Diplomat, Mr. Inbetween, Past Lives, The Burial, The Caine Mutiny Court-Martial * Follow Lon: https://twitter.com/Lons * Read LAUNCH Fund 4 Deal Memo: https://www.launch.co/fourApply for Funding: https://www.launch.co/apply Buy ANGEL: https://www.angelthebook.com Great recent interviews: Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland, PrayingForExits, Jenny Lefcourt Check out Jason’s suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis * Follow Jason: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jason Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis * Follow TWiST: Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin * Subscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.founder.university/podcast

I don't even know how some of these budgets are getting as high. Like, Secret Invasion that Marvel show that didn't even look very good, people were saying it cost over 200 million to make. What? It's getting crazy. I mean, that's the number one thing. All of these budgets need to come down. You can't make that much on these kinds of projects.

This Week in Startups is brought to you by Masterworks is the first company allowing investors exposure into the Blue Chip artwork asset class. Twist listeners can skip the weight. list by going to masterworks.com slash twist. Codecademy. Build the future you want to see with Codecademy. CodeCademy Pro helps you learn everything you'll need to shape what comes next in the tech space.

Try it free for 14 days at codecademy.com slash twist. And LinkedIn jobs. A business is only as strong as its people and every hire matters. Post your first job for free. at LinkedIn.com slash twist. All right, everybody, welcome back to this week in startups. It's been a while, but Lon Harris is back. We're doing this week in streaming again.

There's so much going on in the streaming world. Ed, you know what, always we talk about the technology behind this. We talk about the media. We've really widened the discussion out to talk about technology in relation to entertainment. So consider this your entertainment technology media episode. Altogether. All together. And then also, at the end of the show, Lon and I tend to trade recommendations.

And everybody's always looking for a good show. So at the end of the show, we'll trade some recommendations. But let's get right into it. I know Apple has, I think, done a really great job in terms of building content. I thought this was going to be a disaster for them. But it seems like they've done a pretty good job. And there's rumors they're going to buy Disney. That rumor's been out there since Steve Jobs sold Pixar.

And now with, Ah, You're About. there's renewed focus on maybe ESPN getting spun out and the NFL NBA, maybe Apple investing in it and it becoming a standalone company. And who knows? With Lena Con in charge, they're going to fight every sale. But I just want to ask you up front before we get into Apple in detail, what would that look like if Apple, to you, owned Disney? Would that be good for the creative community? Would that be good for consumers? Would that be bad? Have you given it thought of a company like Apple owning? a company with the IP of Disney. I mean, what we've seen is fewer players, when these companies consolidate, it doesn't, it doesn't usually work out the best for those of us, like viewers and fans. I mean, if you look at Warner Brothers Discovery being the most recent example, you see a lot of layoffs when these groups combined.

You see a lot of the new company deciding it doesn't really need to focus on things that the old company was focusing on. So Cartoon Network kind of gets shelved. And all of these things, Batgirl isn't going to come out anymore. And so I think there would probably be more stuff like that. Having said that, I think Apple has been doing a really good job in terms of curating its streaming content. There's not as much content that goes out on Apple TV Plus as most of these other big platforms. But the quality level, the consistency level has been a lot higher.

So what do you attribute that to what do you attribute that to what do you? attribute Apple being good at this? Why are they good at it? It's because they don't care about making money. They just, where they just have a good, uh, philosophical approach to making quality products. What do you think? I think it's that. I think, I think, Apple's approach to tech, to hardware, to everything has always kind of mirrored old school Hollywood's approach where it's a focus, it's a focus on quality. It's a focus on individual products. And it's a holistic kind of thinking, not just thinking about here's the specs. Here's the specs.

Here's how we're going to promote it. Here's what celebrities are going to be in the ad. Here's how the keynote's going to sound. It's looking at it from all these angles. It's thinking about it in terms of the branding, in terms of the marketing. All that's baked in from the very beginning. And I think that is also a good way to approach films and TV shows and that kind of content, taking this very specific, very hands-on approach.

Thoughtful. Right. Thoughtful. And long-term that they're coming. and they're not going to make, like, let's make one season of foundation, this big epic Isaac Asimov show. We'll make eight episodes and then see where we are. They came in and so like, we're going to dedicate ourselves to this for three, four seasons. We're going to give David Goyer a really long time to figure this out, which is the old Hollywood approach.

An orter. You have an orter. You had somebody like the kid stays in the picture. Bob Evans. Bob Evans. And you put an orter in there who knew what art was and had a part. point of view and then you see where they take it, right? And the same thing with the Pixar guy who got ousted, but sadly. Yeah. And yeah, and Foundation season one, it didn't necessarily

strike a core. People didn't really discover it. It was one of those like, they didn't spend as much as Amazon spent. They only spent 60 million on that first season instead of 120 plus million. Got it. But by season two, starting to get some critical acclaim. I saw more people talk about it this year. I did. I forgot that it was there. My wife wanted to watch it. It was another one of these streaming couples issue where she wanted to watch it. I'm on a plane. I watched the first episode. I'm like, this is really interesting. It's terrific. And then I have to stop myself. You know, and this is the problem. See, you're lucky because you're single, I think. I don't know if you're still single. Ladies, it might be, Lon might be available. Swipe Wright in Raya,

if you see them there. But if you want a really great, sweet, sincere, hardworking guy, that is your Lon Harris, ladies. You're too kind. You're too kind. Well, you know, if you, I mean, also a guy might take you to see a really intellectual movie. And I just want to, you know, remind me, uh, past lives. It's going to be one of my recommendations at the end, but I want to talk about past lives. I haven't actually seen that yet. I got to get around to that. Yeah.

Okay. So here, this is super timely because you and I are both, both. I would say Marty Scorsese is in both of our top three to five directors. Oh, yeah. I already have my tickets for this one. I'm going on Thursday. Yeah, I'm going to be traveling internationally, so I won't be able to see it,

but I cannot wait to see killers of the flower moon. Martin Scorsese, Scorsese, Leonardo DiCapria, Robert De Niro, the kid from Breaking Bad. Jesse Clemens, Lily Gladstone, big cast,

big cast. And this is supposedly a great film. Very critically acclaimed. It's very critical. Very positive. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to see.

It's a real history. With that film. A fascinating true story. I think most people don't know. Which is amazing. And I hear it's a little violent, which, you know, sometimes happens in his films. But I hear a very important film as well. There's a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of importance to the film, I think, to some folks.

And it's something that, you know, we'll make people discuss. But would that film have been made by anybody other than Apple? And then how do you think Apple looks at backing? Because this was backed by Apple, correct? Yes. And so it's in theaters first, and then it goes to Apple. Apple's doing the strategy where they're opening the films theatrically for a few weeks, and then like a month later, they'll come to TV Plus.

And the old school, like in the early days of streaming, there was this zero-sum kind of approach. Like, well, wherever the movie goes first, that's where everybody's going to watch it. And then it's useless on every other platform. I think the, I think bootlegging was very at the top of everybody's mind. And they were like, just like piracy, if the movie gets pirated, then nobody cares when we bring it out officially. And there was a lot of fear about that. And what we've now seen is, I don't really think that's true. In fact, the more places something is available, the more heat and buzz it can build up.

We've seen this happen over and over again. We're actually opening in theaters makes people want to see a movie more when it comes out and streaming. Yes, it increases the value. Because the movie, the theatrical run, was marketing for when the movie pops up on streaming. And who still goes to movie theaters? Who still goes to movie theaters, like younger people,

hardcore fans, like a smaller. Right. And we know that they are. They are vocal in their group chats. They're vocal on social media. They're the ones like you and I, who their friends come to and say,

what should I watch next? It's exactly what we're talking about. Like, it's buzz, it's heat, it's now it's in the discourse and people are talking. about it and the more people are talking about something, the more people want to see it.

And that's just so true that that outweighs any kind of platform exclusivity, at least from what we've seen. So this is the anti-netflix approach, to be clear. Right. It's the anti-everybody approach. It's all of that stuff about only, you can only see this on Peacong. It's only on Netflix. That ended up being not, there's one great example.

So HBO, Warner Brothers Discovery a few months ago, Zazlav made a ton more enemies. He infamously announced, General Zaslov. He infamously announced we're going to keep HBO shows on Macs, but we're also going to start licensing them out to other platforms. And people at HBO were very upset.

They were like, this is the whole thing. We can't let HBO. That's our bread and butter. That's our life. Foundation. We can't let HBO shows be viewable anywhere. It's not TV. It's HBO.

That was the whole thing. And what ended up happening, ballers and insecure, they're now on Netflix. You can go watch those on Netflix. And more people, went back and started streaming them on Max after they popped up on Netflix. So Netflix is marketing HBO Max.

Right. People saw Ballers on Netflix started tweeting about going back and watching Ballers. And then people who had Max were like, hey, you know what? I'm going to watch Ballers. And so it spiked on both platforms. We saw it as well with suits. Suits had always been available on Netflix. But when it popped up on Peacock as well and more people started watching it, it's

spiked on both. crazy for suits. Isn't that show off the air? And it's been off the air. That's a 10 year old USA network legal drama. When it was on TV, nobody cared. So that one, there's a, there's a second issue, which is Megan Markle. Megan Markle was just a TV star when suits was first on TV. Now Megan Markle is royalty and much more famous. And so people are curious to go back. But I don't think you can entirely attribute it to that. I think people just didn't know about suits. And then they discovered it because it was readily available. What I love about, Apple's approach to Apple TV Plus is, I think that they don't care on the margins if this makes any money or not.

They care if it's incredibly high quality and it speaks to their audience. Apple's revenue in 2022 was five times greater than the revenue of the entire film industry. Apple revenue last year, $394 billion. Total global film industry revenue. Global. global with a G 77 billion Apple generated 394 billion

in revenue on about 100 billion in profits in other words the profits at Apple are greater than the sum of the global film industry not that includes Bollywood that includes China

that includes all that so if Apple does spend a billion dollars on these theatrical releases etc that's about 1% of its annual profits 25 basis points of its annual revenue, that is a no-brainer for them to do even two or three percent if it brings the halo effect and keep people on their devices like iMessage does.

And now Apple TV is included with every phone or is that a, do you have to pay for it? Because I pay for... I believe you get like six months free every time you buy a new Apple hardware item. So if I get an iPhone this year, I get the next three or six months. free, and then I might have to start paying my five or six dollars a month. But I think at that point, they got you booked. I don't know what's called Apple One or whatever the bundle is. I think it is called Apple One.

I have Apple One because now I have three daughters, as you know, three wonderful daughters, and then I have my wife. I just did it for storage so that all their devices I could share the storage on it. But then it was like, oh, you can have news and arcade and Apple Plus and music. Arcade is a good one, yeah. And Arcade's a great one for the kids because it has non-ad, non-mona begging for money games, which is great for a parent. Also, news is kind of nice to have on the margins, and music is delightful to have.

And obviously, you know, Apple TV. And then we buy some new device, but I don't know if they credit you for it. I don't care. But Apple should make it do. I think because all of those payments are happening on your Apple ID. It's all one account. So I think that, yeah, they just give you, if you're paying for it, you just get three months of it for free. And if you weren't paying for it, you can use your Apple ID.

to log in for three months or however long the period. It would be great if they just made it. So any Apple device, they know it's an Apple hardware device, even if you got it to hand me down, could just get into Apple TV plus for X number of hours per year. You just got a certain amount of usage. They're already playing around with that because they've got this like major league

soccer pass and they're thinking about doing more sports like Formula One is a big one right now. There's a big, maybe Apple's going to jump in in 2025 and grab those F1 rights. And so those, they're going to make some of the content free for everybody and then some of it behind the paywall. Listen, public markets can be volatile. Don't I know that? Ooh, Uber shares, 15. Oh, 60.

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So go to Masterworks.com slash twist. That's masterworks.com slash twist to skip the wait list. Past performance doesn't guarantee future results. see important disclosures at masterworks.com slash cd talk to me about the budget for killers I'm just curious like what this film would have cost if Apple wasn't doing it and if Apple wasn't in market who would have paid this?

I mean, is this higher than you think? Yeah, I think one of brothers would have spent or whoever. Scorsese would have found, I doubt anybody's going to kick Scorsese to the curb and say we're not interested just because his movies are You're automatically in the award season talk and festival discussions just because of his name. It's the budget. I think if he wasn't working with a prestige player like Netflix or Apple, he might have to make more concessions in terms of the budget. Like the Irishman famously got pushed way over budget because of all the digital de-aging stuff they were doing on De Niro and all those scenes.

That adds up over the course of a three-plus hour movie. This one, you know, it's period, a lot of location work. You got a, you know, DiCaprio alone is 25 million right off the top. And then he's getting the chunk of the back end too. So yeah, you know, these costs that up. And I definitely think that if he was making a more conventional studio movie, he'd have to probably think about those margins more than he does. He could just call Tim Cook and say, hey, I need 20 more million to this.

I mean, Wolf of Wall Street, just by comparison, 100 million in 2013, which is about 130 million of today's dollars a decade later. And he, he did the Irishman with Netflix last time. And that had the de-aging and everything. So that is interesting. He, he used the Singapore, I think it was a Singaporean, that very famous, uh,

Bruhaha, where the Singaporean wealth, sovereign wealth fund back Wolf of Wall Street, but it might have been stolen money or something. Yes. That was like, DeCabrio had to, right, DeCabrio had to like, uh, yeah, he testified at that, at that trial, at that celebrity. Irishman, 159 million. So if you look at that, 130 and, you know, today's dollars, 160, and now, I think, 250 with Killers of the Flower and Moon probably costs.

I mean, we are also coming out of an era where those budgets got massively inflated. I don't even know how some of these budgets are getting as high. Like secret invasion that, that Marvel show that didn't even look very good, people were saying it cost over 200 million to make. What? It's getting crazy. I mean, that's the number one thing. all of these budgets need to come down.

You can't make that much on these kinds of projects. You need to bring the budget somewhere down more reasonable. Sorry, it was Malaysian. Sorry, it was Malaysian sovereign. The Malaysian, right. The Malaysian sovereign foot would have never fallen for the Singaporeans got a pretty serious. No, I'm dead serious. Singapore is a very hardcore country

when it comes to capital allocation. I think that they have a very sophisticated group. They probably wouldn't have gotten scammed. Yeah. But apparently Malaysians did. So, Netflix is not doing this with their movies. They want everybody to get right to the, you know. Yeah. So Ted Sarandos very specifically said, said, like, we don't want people to watch our movies in theaters.

We want them to watch it on Netflix. So they're, if they're opening things in theaters at all, it's like it's a stunt or it's just to get attention or it's for an award qualifying run. They don't want people to pay and go see movies conventionally in theaters. In fact, if you think about it, Ted Serendos didn't say this out loud. But if you think about it, it benefits Netflix if movie theaters go out of business. Whereas a lot of these legacy entertainment companies, your Disney's, your Sonys, Warner Brothers Discovery, they need movie theaters. AMC theaters is a vital link between them and their audience.

But if you're Apple, especially if you're Netflix, if you're Amazon, it benefits you if those movie theaters go away forever. So the trend of people wanting to watch it on their phone, wanting to watch it on their iPad, wanting to watch it on their flat panel, which are now... It's unbelievable. Every time I buy a flat panel TV, I have like this cognitive dissonance

because I'm like, I paid $2,000 for that previous TV and now I'm paying $800 for one that's 10 times better than... Oh, yeah. Twice as good as the last one. I feel like an idiot. Now I've got to throw away,

it went from throwing away or gifting a $4,000 TV to a $2,000 to a thousand, and now you replace it, and you're like, yeah, you can replace it for 800 with something much better. And I'm just like,

Yeah. I just, I hate the consumption trend of it, but I love the fact that it's so cheap to have something epic now. I don't even know if you could spend $5,000 on a flat panel TV now. I think you need to get into those like foldable 8K. Like, they're still at CES every year. You could go see the big new TVs. But I think we've already reached the point where it's about as good as your eyeballs can

see. Like, we're at a point of clarity and brightness where I don't know how much better it can even get really. Ask you a question. You and I have been talking about the sequel nonsense and how literally like the last couple of sequel things are just not either not worth watching or the audience is burned out on it. They've obviously gotten burned out on the Marvel series. They did too many. There's still interest. It's just it doesn't have that oh, I got to see this opening weekend in the theater. We've trained people like, look, if you hang out, Disney Plus, all those Marvel movies are going to end up there eventually. Maybe you could wait to see Ant Man 3. Blue Beetle, Flash, everything is coming up, like not even covering their budgets now. Yeah, Transformers didn't do that well this year. Indiana Jones was a disappointment. That Mission Impossible movie was kind of a disappointment. Which is crazy.

But then, here we go. So Mission Impossible. And then let's put those all on the side. And then we look at something like Barbie, which is based on IP, but it's the first time they've ever done that. So I consider it kind of newish, I guess. And then Oppenheimer. That's all the summer. Yeah, they had to sell people on Barbie.

People know the doll, but it wasn't like a sequel to a big movie that they were introducing this whole world. So I do think that counts as something different than the franchise model they've been going with. So my question to you, we're watching Apple. They're going full Artur. They got Killers of the Flower Moon. And then what I'm really looking forward to, I know one of your favorite directors is my favorite director, really Scott. I think it's my favorite director of all time. I love their strategy here.

I think their strategy is fascinating. You're doing Napoleon, right? In November, we're going to get the two and a half hour theatrical Napoleon cut. It is going to go on Apple TV Plus, probably December. They haven't announced a release date yet, but probably December. But they're getting the four-hour directors cut. They're going to get both versions. So you will be able to watch the theatrical cut on Apple, but Ridley Scott's also making a four-hour director's cut that will be exclusive to TV Plus.

That's genius. So now you get people seeing it twice because people are going to want to go to the theater to see it on the big screen, the theatrical cut. But then you've got to watch it again because you want to see the full four-hour version. Interestingly, yeah, if you remember, really Scott did that director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven.

And people say it was amazing. It is. It's much better. I'm going to watch that. You know, I never saw that one. It kind of slipped by me. Oh, man. I'm going to watch it.

The director's cut is phenomenal. I have a movie theater at my ski house. So this is the great. thrill of my life to be a kid from Brooklyn who has a movie I got a proper movie theater. It's pretty nice. Like the Snyder cut, I thought was really good, you know, for an imperfect film. I like that too.

So this is great. I mean, I love the fact that the director's cut is baked in. We're baking in the director's cut. That is a power move. Yeah. The superpower move. And I didn't get to see Oppenheimer in the theaters because it was literally every time I went to buy tickets to the 70 millimeter, it was sold out.

Now I can watch it on streaming, I guess, but I'm kind of feel like an idiot watching it on streaming. I mean, I feel like that's one of those things where what we're seeing is it's harder for Hollywood to release, you know, 18 movies at a time that people want to go see,

fill up all of these multiplexes. So I think a smarter thing to do, and it's already happening to some extent. Some of these multiplexes use some of the screens for new stuff and then use other screens for like, well, let's bring back Oppenheimer and IMAX for a few weeks. They're like, let's show the Back to the Future trilogy.

or, you know, it's Halloween, so we're going to show scream movies or a saw or whatever. Like, it just... And I think that's what people want, too, is make it eventize it more. So it's like not necessarily only things that opened this weekend in theaters, but it's like things I want to go see with my friends. Who did Barbie? Warner Bros.

So Zazlov did Barbie. It was originally going to be Amy Schumer. He inherited. Zazlap didn't greenlight Barbie himself. He inherited the price. But that did, the budget on that was 100. It did $1.4 billion. So original IP.

A lot of the credit there has to go to Margo Robbie. She was very behind this project and was telling them like, here's how to do it. I have a vision. She's got her own production company Lucky Chap that produced it. And like so she was really the driving force of like going into order brothers. Like this could make a billion dollars. You got to put muscle behind this. And she was the one who had the vision, I think, before a lot of Wall Street.

Yeah, well done. And then the budget for Oppenheimer was only 100 million. And it did a bill. Yeah. Just under a bill. I mean, a very thoughtful historical three-hour biopic doing that kind of money is like, we haven't seen stuff like that. May I ask you a leading question? Please.

If Oppenheimer and Barbie have shown this, that original IP done well with Artur's can win the day, why isn't Disney and other folks getting the memo on this? Why have they not gotten the memo? I mean, to do more original IP. Instead of doing Toy Story 7, give us something new. It's always,

you know, are they going to take the right lesson from their successes? There's always the question. And so I think, I think there are a lot of wrong lessons. I think you could take. One is we got to like come up with viral memes of two movies opening the same weekend.

You already saw that. They were trying to figure out, What two movies can we open at the same time? Par against each other, right? But that's a one-time marketing experience. That's not going to happen over and over again. Right. And that's not something studios didn't create that.

The public created that. You can't force that to happen. It sort of has to happen organically. The other thing is, of course, Mattel and Hasbro are now fast-tracking a hundred toy-based movies each. So we're going to get the Barney, the dinosaur movie, the Stretch Armstrong movie, the Hot Wheels movie. And again, I don't necessarily think

that's going to work either. I agree with you. The right lesson would be you got to find interesting projects from notable filmmakers, put a lot of marketing muscle behind them and come up with creative ways to make people feel like this is something I got to see opening weekend with my friends. This is a social experience that I want to be part of with this crowd. Do you remember last year when that Minions movie came out? Yes, and everybody wore the suits.

Did that ever again? Was that? organic or non-organic? Yeah. That was organic. It was called the gentle minions meme and just kids on TikTok were like, you know, what would be funny? Then you had the Megan dance. The Megan, which was actually like, as far, I'm not into

the horror genre, but I am into the AI genre. Uh-huh. And I liked Megan. I enjoyed it. Oh, I liked Megan too. Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about that like just before the show. If you can come up with a dance, like Wednesday, that Netflix show had that viral dance as well and then became one of Netflix's biggest shows of all time. My daughters were doing it.

Exactly. If you could come up with something like that, or there was that, that, uh, Peaches song from the Super Mario movie that all the kids went crazy for. If you can come up with something like that that sticks in people's heads and grabs their attention on X or Facebook or TikTok or Twitch or wherever they're hanging out, that's how you make a hit movie. The, the idea that part eight or part 12 or it's based on this thing you remember, we're sort of that era's done.

And now you've got to figure out how to eventize everything. How do we make this the Taylor Swift Eras Tour of this genre? All right, everybody. We all know technology is moving at a blistering pace. We talk about it here every week, especially AI. And CodeCatomies' goal is to help you stay ahead. And so if you've got some experience or you're brand new to coding, CodeCatomies is going to offer you everything you need to build your tech career.

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I mean, look, I don't personally love it because I think so many of its ideas are derivative. Feel a little recycled, feel a little derivative. And the whole idea in brainstorming is you want to go as far outside the box, not deep inside the box. But listen, lots of people have lots of different ways of working and far be it for me to tell another writer, I do know a lot of writers who do enjoy brainstorming with AI. And I don't want to say it's bad or you shouldn't. do it like more more power to them.

But right. So I think they really kind of kick the can down the road on the most complex issues. The thing that we agreed on is AI can't write a script and we can't hire a writer to adapt an idea that AI came up with. Like ideas have to originate with human writers. But the really difficult stuff like training, like is it okay to train an AI app on somebody's writing? We kind of didn't.

We're like the WGA kind of reserved the right to object. to that later, but didn't object to it yet. So how would you feel if, you know, a young person could come into Disney Plus's app in, let's just pick a time frame, you know, five years from now,

10 years from now? And I could open up the Disney Plus app and say, I would like a story about Ashoka becoming friends with Captain Marvel and it's an alternative universe and then they go fight Thanos and Darth Vader. I don't.

I don't think this ever happens. It produces some little short video for you. I mean, maybe a little short purely visual, you know, maybe something. Like a little exploration, like a fan fiction type thing? Like a like a little showcase demo reel or something. Yes. But. Do you think consumers would be interested in that?

I'm curious. I think that's a, I think that's a gimmick. I don't, I don't think to me, the stuff that AI is like, like code. Like when you're talking about like, I need help writing this piece of code and AI can help you figure it out. It's obviously perfect for that. Or I was reading something about brocolini. They're using it to come up with the next genetic strain of brocolini that will be hardier, grow faster and more harsh climates.

Perfect. Exactly. That's exactly the perfect use case for it. Creative stuff, I think it's just not a good fit. Creative stuff is what humans are very good at. That's the word. We should have AI do all the data entry stuff that we're bad at or that it's hard for us to focus our minds on so that we can be freed up to be creative and to think about

things outside the box in a way that AI after is good. Yeah, so that's what I think is my point about this, I choose your own adventure type experience. So imagine you watched the Obi-Wan series, which we had mixed feelings on, but generally I really like that that existed. I kind of liked it, yeah. I liked it. Yeah. I enjoyed it. So if you could say, though, hey, I would like to see a version where, you know, the fight scene was a little more dynamic, right, or something, or I wanted to see a little bit more of this part of the story and it filled in that part of the story or gave you some options. That to you feels, does it feel offensive to you? I don't, do you feel, do you feel disgusted by it in some way? You seem to resist it as a humanist.

I'm, I'm, I wouldn't say, I'm disgusting by it. But I do think that. that not, no, not even a fend. But I do think that it's just, that's, it's, all, all it's really doing is, is mashing things up, is mixing things up. It's not, it's not bringing anything new to the table. So sure, if you tell stable diffusion, I want to see an image of Asoka next to another, you know, Optimus Prime and have them fight. Sure, it can sort of roughly assemble that and you can see that.

But your imagination can do that too. And the cleverness that a writer would add or that a director would add or that a creative person would add. They're the ones who are going to have because a computer doesn't, it knows what Optimus Prime looks like because we've trained it. We've shown it 100 pictures of Optimus Prime and said, this is Optimus Prime. And it goes, okay, I understand the term Optimus Prime. It means this image. But it's, it doesn't know what makes Optimus Prime cool. Like, why is a truck that turns into a big guy with guns cool?

Like, well, we know why that's cool because we're people and we have life experience with trucks and guns and robots. And that informs our decision that that's cool. A computer doesn't understand that. All it knows is this is what it looks like. This is what it looks like when it transforms. What's going on with the actors then? So the writers have settled. They seem to be somewhat content.

They have some sort of backends here. They're going to get some data. The big thing is also they're going to get data. Some kind of sharing on how a Netflix show did. They're going to get some metrics, right? They're going to get some limited metrics, but they're going to get the people who make the biggest Netflix shows are going to get a little taste now. They're going to get a little kickback based on the success. Which they should.

Of course. That's in the best interest of Netflix. By the way, like for Netflix that made all these millionaires and billionaires here in Silicon Valley to not get that people will do better work and they'll invest more in their careers if all of a sudden a residual check comes and like, oh, wow, I get $30,000 a year. Yeah, if I'm telling you, I'm going to hire you for six weeks and I'm going to give you this set amount, you're going to do a good job because you're a professional and you want to earn that amount. But if I'm like, I'm going to hire you for six weeks, you're going to get this set amount. And then you got a shot at also getting a $75,000 check next year if your show's a big hit. That's a big incentive. That's a big incentive.

So, yeah, like, a little taste. Get a tasty clue. Yeah, I think that is going to, going to motivate people. and it allows more people to turn TV writing from a hobby and interested to a real career. And that's good. You need the next generation of people who are going to create Netflix shows 10 years from that. You know what? You have intellectuals.

You have powerful people who then have the choice. I can go work at Goldman Sachs. I can work in Silicon Valley. Or I can work in Hollywood. And if you make Hollywood, you know, like you're going to be a monk. You're going to be living on this like pittance and you have no chance of building any kind of for your family, your future, your retirement, then people are just going to take the Goldman Sachs option,

or are they going to take the... You need the next generation of Bill Lawrence's who made scrubs and, you know, you need, you need Shonda Rhymes, and you need Taylor Sheridan's. Like, you need those people and you need to have a path where we take the people who are getting started today and turn them into those people one day. And so that's really a lot of what we did.

But, yeah, the hope was after the WGA resolved, big. Why is Optimus Prime cool? Powerful abilities, moral integrity. Lots of good things. Pretty great. I mean, I don't think any... Oh, powerful abilities.

Deep voice, memorable quotes, protective nature, rich backstory, diverse adaptations, childhood nostalgia. Great. And that's all the reason. Oh, oh. Take the ideas that make Optimus Prime cool and create entirely new character with a different modality, but similar traits that make them resonate

like Optimus. Character name Luminaris. Delaris. That's a worst name ever. Ethereal guardian of a cosmic library. Sure, what kid doesn't want to play with a ethereal librarian?

Yeah. It doesn't exactly. Yeah, wow. Exactly. Way to go, Jack, GPT. You just ruined our childhoods. But no, that's a great.

It's a cool example because it doesn't coolness. It's a, you can't, How do you define it? How do you teach a computer what it is? You can't. Look at her rich backstory. Once immortal from a forgotten planet, Luminaria's thirst for knowledge led her to the cosmic library.

But I mean, again, like, it's just, it's just hero's journey. Like, every time you ask it for a story, it Joseph Campbell's you, because of course it does. That's what it learned from. Yes. But that's not interesting every time. What's interesting is how you modify it and tweak it and make it your own. And you could, just so we know, like, you can beat a dead horse. Okay, creating a job post and finding your qualified candidates that can be time consuming

unless you use LinkedIn jobs. They are closing in on one billion users. The March to a billion continues and they're almost there. Think about how many insanely qualified people are out there looking for work right now. And if you go post that open role on LinkedIn, you're 100% certain that you're going to get the most qualified candidates available. Why? Just like you, anybody who.

is qualified, uses LinkedIn for 20 different reasons. They use it to keep up to date with their network. They use it to build their network. They might use it for advertising, marketing. Everybody's on LinkedIn all week long. And you are, right? So if that's the case, why don't you post a job listing right now? And you know what? Why don't you do it for free at LinkedIn.com slash twist? That's right. LinkedIn loves this weekend startups. They love startups. They love supporting founders. And they will give you your first job listing for free, but only if you go to LinkedIn.com slash twist. And when you are hiring You get the purple ring on your profile. What does that mean?

That means everybody in your LinkedIn network knows that you're hiring. So when you interact in the feed, you're commenting on other people's posts, then they see the purple link and they go there. So that's why I participate. You see me commenting all the time on LinkedIn and on my friends and my networks. I do that because I want to give a high-fi to people in my network, but also I want that purple ring to be out there so I can find the best talent. And the best talents on LinkedIn.

LinkedIn.com slash twist. LinkedIn.com slash T-W-I-S-T to post your first job. for free. Terms and conditions do apply because they're giving you something for free. Tell me about actors. What's going on with Screen Actors Guild? Known as SAG. I am a member of SAG, or I was

from my amazing performance in Center of the World. That's right. Film August. So, yeah, SAG actor Jason Calacanis wants to know how he's doing. My SAG is aspired. Well, there was hope that after the WGA strike resolved that SAG might wrap up quickly. Now there's fire. There's momentum. We want to get this finished up.

get back to making stuff, but that's kind of come totally derailed this week. It seems like it's mostly, again, about residuals and profit sharing. So the actors apparently had suggested 2% of overall revenue from these platforms. Go to actors. The streamers said that works out to $2.4 billion over the course of a three-year contract or $800 million per year. That was too much. The streamer said that. The streamer said that the studio said that was too much.

Two percent is too much. They said two percent was too much. So then the act. So then SA came back and said, okay, if revenue is the wrong basis for profit sharing, let's switch over to subscriber count. So you could pay a levy based on Netflix's total subscriber count or whatever your platform's total subscriber count. And at that point, Sarando said that was a bridge too far to bring up this late in the negotiations. And that's what caused apparently the AMPTP to exit the negotiate. walk away from the table.

This is so dumb. Ted Sarandos is making a stupid mistake. He's going to be the most hated guy. Everybody's going to go to Apple and Amazon because they're working with or tours. So the AMPT, Carol Lombardini, the head of the AMPT, AMPTP. She's working with the CEO gang of four, they're called. That's NBC Universal's Donna Langley, Zazlav from Warner Brothers Discovery, Surendos from Netflix, and Iger from Disney. So they're the four CEOs.

This is so dumb. By putting a number, a percentage number on it, it frees them. This frees them from having to keep negotiating. And 2% is a perfect place to do it. In the NBA, it's like 51% go to the players or something. That's crazy, right. Literally half of revenue goes to the players. You know what's happened in the NBA?

More people want to become NBA players. NBA players spend a million dollars or $2 million of their own money to keep themselves healthy like LeBron James does. And they really take their career seriously now because they know there's a $250 million, a $350 million super max contract out here. If they did this 2%, now you got all the actors saying, you know what, I'm going to show up on set and take this seriously. I'm not going to be like, I don't want to pick anybody, but like Johnny Depp,

like whatever causing chaos on set they said or, you know, whatever. Drinking red wine all day. You know, like, that stuff's going to go out the window because Johnny Depp's going to be like, you know what? And Netflix has had this specific problem. Reggie Jean Page became a huge star in season one of Bridgeton, didn't want to come back for season two. Millie Bobby Brown today.

We've got the headline and Insights, streaming is complaining about having to come back for one more season of Stranger Things. She wants to go make film. She's a huge famous actor now. But imagine if you were going to give her a chunk of the Stranger Things revenue. Show me the doubt. She'd be like, let's make 10 more seasons. That's how you keep these actors on sitcoms for 10 years.

You know who did this? Tony Star, Iron Man. And he knew. Right. Exactly. He knew because his career hit the rocks. Iron Man, they marvel, didn't want to bank on him. he had to take out his own insurance,

and he bet on himself, and what did he get in that last contract? It was absurd. It's hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for showing up for 10 minutes, like two days on set, whatever it was, good for him.

It's very famously George Lucas, too, where nobody wanted to come in on him with these deals. And so he was like, all right, I'll take almost nothing. You don't have to pay me to direct the movie. I'll just take the merch rights.

And the studio was like, are you crazy? Who's going to buy the toys of these furry? How about Todd Phillips? I mean, there's one film I'm looking forward to. It's the new Joker. Joker 2 is going to be.

Folly, I do. Cannot wait for that. Joaquin Phoenix, I'll see anything he's in. And Lady Gaga. And I'll see anything Todd Phillips in. And you know what, Lady Gaga crushes it. Star is born. You know, she's amazing.

Who isn't curious to see Joker 2? I think we're all curious to see what they got going on there. That made a billion dollars on like a $75 million budget or something crazy. And it won the Golden Lion at Venice. That's crazy. Well, here it is, orters. And so you got to give the Warner Brothers folks, because they also did the Batman. They did Barbie, they did the Batman, yeah.

They understand orters can take IP in a direction that the formulaic thing. Now, listen, Marvel did do a great job on phase one, two, and three, or whatever. But would it kill Marvel to do something outside the canon with one of the characters or, you know, whatever? And not have a phase five, six, and seven. Like, would you think that was a good idea if they said, hey, we want to let somebody do something interesting with the Hulk? I mean, I, it's, it's so hard to say because I do feel like we're seeing the DC movies suffer right now because they're not. Audiences have lost that continuity sense. And so when Blue Beetle comes out, there's nothing making people feel like, oh, I need to see this because it's part of this overall story.

I like, it's just hanging out there on its own. And I actually thought Blue Beetle was pretty good, but... I watched the first 20 minutes. I got bored. It's not enough to grab people's attention, totally flying blind on its own. Did they have any other DC characters in it? Did anybody show up? Or is it just him alone?

No, it's, I mean, there's shoutouts and mentions, but no, it's pretty much just Blue Beetle. And James Gunn has said he's going to bring that kid Jolo Maraduanias, or I think I'm saying it right. That the Cobra Kai kid who plays Blue Beetle, he's going to come back in more DC movies as, Jaime Reyes, but I don't, I don't think the movie, the movie doesn't really feel like the part of Gal Gadda. She's gone. They're saying, Mamoa might come back and play Lobo or a different character, but he's not Aquaman anymore. Caval's gone.

Aftleck's gone. All of those, Erzra Miller gone. All those people are not going to be back. The only exception is peacemaker. So Viola Davis is going to stay on as Amanda Waller. John Seen is still peacemaker. That whole group is set. But anyway, that has definitely hurt them.

So I don't think Marvel necessarily wants to throw the whole idea of continuity away. But I do think that they're kind of pushing the brakes a little bit on it, less focus on the constant releases that are all part of the one interconnected story. Because it's not paying off at this point. It's hurting them more than helping, I think, in some ways. People have just burned out. It's time for recommendations. What do you got for us?

Wow. I watched a lot of good stuff lately. I really liked Fall of the House of Usher, that new Netflix, Mike Flanagan show. What is it? How is it? So Mike Flanagan, he's the guy who did the haunting of Pillhouse

and haunting a blind manner and also Midnight Mass. He does these like horror drama kind of series. He also directed that film, Dr. Sleep and Oculus, a few other horror films. So his new show is, it's sort of based on the Edgar Allan Post short story The Fall of the House of Usher,

but it's really a remix. It's based on, the entire collected works of Edgar Allan Poe. So there's pit in the pendulum stuff, murders in the room, mort, the Raven gets shout out. Like, it's really this kind of like entire career of Edgar Allan Poe put into one story. But really great cast. It's kind of a mix of funny and spooky.

But it's also got this kind of succession who's going to take over this pharmaceutical company storyline. I really enjoyed it. I think it's a fun mash up with a lot of different. For sure. Stiles. And then I also liked others. This movie on Hulu. It's a little silly.

It's a little bit of a one-off, but it's quick. It's called The Mill with Lil Rel Rell Howrie. Set in a near future, this guy is a middle manager for a tech company called Mallard. And then one day he wakes up and the company has imprisoned him in this cell with this mill in the center of it. And they're like, this is your new employee training. 16 hours a day, you've got to work this mill. whoever rotates at the least in a day,

whichever one of the employees gets killed. And he's just a prisoner now in this weird cell. And it becomes like a thriller of like, how is he going to get out of there? Nice. I have two for you. I got two for you. That's on Hulu.

That's on Hulu. The diplomat. Hmm. Yes. I enjoyed. This was a huge hit among like the government, like politicians and everyone in Washington was watching the diplomat. I like Perry Russell a lot.

She's fantastic. in this. I will watch her do anything. And, uh, you know, it's like taught thriller type thing and she's amazing. And I think it's a little bit timely, um, if you like geopolitics and that kind of stuff. And then my other one, I'm catching up on, but this could be, I think, my favorite series in a long time, Mr. In Between, uh, which stars a guy named Scott Ryan. Yeah. It's from Australia. It's from Australia. And I think it's who. It's on Hulu. It's on Hulu.

It was an FX show when it was on TV, so now it's on Hulu. This show, Mr. Inbetween, is kind of like Sopranos meets Breaking Bad kind of situation. It's about a hitman from Down Under who's just unflappable, and it reminds me of the Shield, a show I always liked. And if actually that guy, who's the showrunner guy, creator of The Shield? Oh, it's a, oh, man, what's it? Ryan something? Yeah, he's Sean Ryan, because he's a guy who did the night agent. Yeah.

So I just started the night agent. That's a little unrealistic. I'm like two or three episodes into that, but I'd still like it. I love Sean Ryan. I've played poker with him a couple times. That's a great example because Sean Ryan is a guy who went to Netflix, but he was like, I don't like your model. I want to, I'm going to make shows for you, but I want to do the network way of doing things.

And they said, okay. So he's had writers rooms all along. He kind of convinced them to do things the old fashioned way, even before the WGA. So I love the shield That was one of my favorite Top 10 TV shows of all time But this new one, the night agent I love the actor in it

He's pretty good And but you know It's a little bit Noah Noah Centino Is it him? Oh no this is a different guy This is Gabriel Basso Never mind

It's a interesting concept It's pretty good But I do want to give a shout out You know I do like indie films And You know there was this Film After Sun from last year

that I've heard yeah that was in 2022 again this 824 is a really great orter I don't know why somebody doesn't buy 824 that company seems to understand a great business model here

it's it's been part of something no but um but it's it's one of those things you the rumors are always around like who's gonna who's gonna buy 824 because they're also very savvy in terms of branding and marketing like they've got a lot of merch that they sell

like they've kind of made themselves a little bit of a lifestyle brand in addition to being a film studio. So after Son and Past Lives, both very deeply personal films. These are dramas. They're slow. They're meaningful. If you can put your phone down, give yourself over to the films, they're not for most people.

But for me, I like thoughtful, dramatic films. And this one, Past Lives, is about a boy and a girl who are in school together and then their lives separate and then their lives intertwent. wine every 10 years or so. And there's, they're obviously like, um, in love in some very deep way,

but, you know, it's kind of like, um, missed, um, connections, um,

connections kind of thing. Yeah. Kind of like that. And, uh, it's so well acted and directed and paced, uh, that I just think it's a very special film.

And I understand this is the director's debut. Both of these, amazingly, both of the film, you've mentioned are directorial debuts because after son, I believe, is Charlotte Wells a debut as a writer-director as well. And then people really didn't get

after son, you know, this is like a coming of age kind of drama about a dad and a daughter. I don't want to spoil it for you. They're on vacation, so it's sort of like, yeah, this kind of travel log almost. But I don't want to give it. Yeah, we can't give it in the way, but you know, as a father of daughters, like this trying to connect with your child.

Yeah. And this meaningful. adolescence and then the challenges of also being an adult and being a parent. It's very, very heartfelt films. So if you were a considered sensitive person, I think it's a great double feature for you to get you out of, you know,

the, uh, you know, exploding transformer, things are moving so fast on the screen that it's just a giant, freaking blur. Yeah. AfterSun is on,

after Sun is on Paramount Plus right now. If you have the, if you have the showtime, you have to have the Showtime ad on. Or just, You know, like I say, you know, like, if it's, if it's a really good film, just pay for it on whatever service. It doesn't matter. Pass lies is on VOD.

So you have to pay to rent or buy them. It's okay to pay to rent these things. Like, 20 bucks or 30 bucks to pay or rent something, it's well worth it, folks. I know that we live in this disposable age, but just think if you want to have orchures make films, just buy it. It's fine. You know, you know, it's a pittance. You know, it's given inflation. It's like movies become such a good deal.

You have any of films that you actually like that are in? in, you know, more a non-obvious film, I would say, or an obvious. Well, I, sure, on Amazon Prime right now, it just came out last week. There's one called The Burial with Jamie Fox and Tommy Lee Jones. Oh, I just watched this last night. It's like a courtroom comedy drama based on a real case from the 1990s. Tommy Lee Jones plays the owner of a few funeral parlors in Southern Mississippi, and he gets into a fight with a huge,

Canadian funeral corporation and he hires this guy Willie Gary who is a personal injury kind of a flashy TV personal injury lawyer to manage his case who's played by Jamie Five it's a lot of fun I mean it's a little silly but it has that

throwback like it feels like a 90s courtroom courtroom comedy drama that would just come out Tommy Jones in his time because he's old Tommy Jones getting up there you know it's really about like he and Jamie Five very different guys, but they kind of come together and become friends over the course of this trial. It's, they're very charming together. 77 years old.

Wow, Tommy Lee John, 77 years old, man. So that one, and Bill Camp is the sort of the fugitive. If you're a young person, you haven't seen the fugitive. And that's as good as he gets on a thriller, right? That's his big Oscar role right there. Yeah, the fugitive. Yeah, forget about men and black. No country for all men and the fugitive is where you want to go, I think.

He's also in that amazing movie Rolling Thunder from the 70s with William DeVane. One of one of a, that's why Tarantino named his company Rolling Thunder Pictures. Oh, I do not that. Yeah. I, I, um, I, I, I listened to the first book of criticism, Quentin Tarantino did. Yeah. You know, it's good. And I like his podcast that he does.

Um, so shout out to both of those. Uh, any other. Devane plays like a traumatized Vietnam vet and then he comes home and bikers attack his family. And then he just goes in this really gruesome crusade of vengeance gets them. That is, uh, that is one of Tarantino's big things, is the gruesome revenge genre, which the 60s and 70s had this whole revenge genre. Well, yeah, Rolling Thunder was part of that whole, like, all those movies about all the guys coming back from Vietnam being just like super messed up and, you know, having trouble reintegrating into society. So it's from that era.

Cutters Way, another great movie from that era. The video archives podcast is the, the video is archive podcast is, I love it. But he does very weird, weird movies. But he did manhand and Roger Aver, which I was with Roger Aver. did Manhunter, which is a film I like. Yeah. He did a really weird thing of like, I had to like go really seek this out.

There's like a bunch of Planet of the Apes. There was a TV show. Yeah. And then it was terrible, but there was like a couple of interesting moments about it. And I didn't even know there was a thing. What else did he do on the first season? I know sometimes he does stuff on that podcast and then they scream them at the new

Beverly after, which I've always meant to go. I've always meant to go. Yeah. It's just really good because you can see. how this stuff, he did straw dogs, which is like the ultimate San Peck and Paw revenge film. And that's a really difficult film to talk about in today's era. So I would start there.

If you're going to listen to his podcast, like listen to the straw dog ones and watch straw dogs with Dustin Hoffman, I think, um, in the lead role. And really it's like, that's a challenging one. I won't spoil anything for you,

but that's a very challenging film when it came out. And he goes through the, what I love about what he does in this, um, video archives podcast is, he talks about the reaction to those films at that time. And he did the film Star 80, which I remember when that came out.

Bob Fawsey did this. And I actually watched the film Star 80 and then listen to his criticism over. And he did two episodes on it last year in November. And that was also like a really great walk down through town. So I think if you can listen to Brett East and Alice or, Roger Avery and Quentin Tarantino and then here are their takes on films that's how I got into Tar

because Brady Senales didn't like Tar and then everybody loved it and he went to see it again and he was like you know what on second viewing I actually really do like this film and I wasn't in the right headspace when I watched it the first time and he changed his opinion on it I mean that was really interesting yeah like that definitely happens

like that's happened to me several films you have a film in mind that you change your thinking on yeah it happens a lot with with Paul Thomas Anderson, where I'll see the movie the first time, and I'm like, I don't really know, like, the master is a great example. The master was, it came to mind immediately, which I didn't get it. I was like, I don't really know how I feel about that. But by the second or third time, I was like, well, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen.

I love this. It's my favorite Paul Thomas Anderson film, really, I think. Every time I see there will be blood or the master. They're all. I just flip my honor. We talked about this before. All right, everybody else. One other one I was going to mention.

Yeah, one other one. It's also on Showtime right now. If you play for Paramount Plus, you got to pay for the Showtime. on the last William Friedkin film just went up the King Mutiny Courtharshal. It's it's a it is purely courtroom. I mean, it is just a filmed version of that play. If you have not seen the movie the Kane Mutiny and you don't know the story at all, it might be a little it's a little weird at first, but really great performances.

One of the final screen performances. Keyfer Sutherland, wow. Key for Sutherland plays Quig, who's that's the Humphrey Bogart role from the original. I cannot wait. And then land one of the final performance. from the late great Lance Reddick. He plays the sort of general who's overseeing the hearing. You know, obviously worth watching.

Very interesting. Jason Clark also really good in that one. Lewis Pullman, who was great in Top Gun Mavericks in that. Cane Mountain. Kane Mutiny. The Kane Mutiny was that World War II novel by Herman Wook, Wook. I don't know how to pronounce. W-O-U-K.

Yeah, have it, everybody. Thank you, Lon. And we'll see you all next time in the week's service. Bye-bye.