This Week in Startups - Twitter deal updates, Poshmark acquired, Liquid Death's $700M valuation & more | E1577

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

First J+M say as much as they can about the Twitter news (2:03), before breaking down Poshmark being acquired by Naver (6:38). Then, they break down Liquid Death's $700M valuation (34:05) and Selena Gomez raising at a $100M valuation for her pre-revenue mental health startup. (46:05) (0:00) J+M tee up today's topics! (2:03) Elon Musk proposes closing the Twitter deal at the agreed-upon price of $54.20/share (6:38) Poshmark acquired by Naver (15:50) Vanta - Get $1000 off your SOC 2 at https://vanta.com/twist  (17:06) The booming "circular economy" space, Naver's acquisition thesis, "Goodwill Finds", Google's circular economy program (26:54) Squarespace - Use offer code TWIST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain at https://Squarespace.com/TWIST (28:17) Jason's ideas for a circular economy startup (34:05) Liquid Death raises $70M at a $700M valuation, on pace for ~$130M revenue in 2022 (38:43) Lemon.io - Get 15% off your first 4 weeks of developer time at https://Lemon.io/twist (40:06) Importance of branding and packaging in CPG (46:05) Selena Gomez raises $5M at a $100M valuation from Serena Williams VC firm for her startup Wondermind, mental health startup space FOLLOW Jason: https://linktr.ee/calacanis FOLLOW Molly: https://twitter.com/mollywood Subscribe to our YouTube to watch all full episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkkhmBWfS7pILYIk0izkc3A?sub_confirmation=1

All right, big show today. What's in the news, my line? Nothing. Not a lot. I mean, there's like one big acquisition story. Is there an acquisition story? I love Eminet. What are my favorite thing?

What do we got? Poshmark. Yeah, that's where we're going to go with that one. Yeah, maybe a little bit of the other thing. You're kidding. Also, there was breaking news right while we're on air that the Twitter deal is going to go through apparently. So we'll talk about that to the extent we can. I've got to tiptoe along the third rail, as it were.

We definitely are. We're going to talk about circular economy startups and their exits and their incubation at Google. It's getting really interesting out there and the idea of like not buying new stuff. Thrifting. My daughter's way into this. Kids are into this. And then Selena Gomez has a new mental health startup called Wondermind. She just raised that $100 million valuation with no revenue backed by Serena Williams.

We're going to talk about that and how do these celebrity deals go down and the future of mental health being delivered digitally. Yeah, and it does not go the way you think about that valuation, nor does our conversation about liquid death raising $70 million at a $700 million valuation. Really great conversation. Important conversation. Yeah, stick with us. This week in startups is brought to you by Vanta. Compliance and security shouldn't be a deal breaker for startups to win new business.

Vanta makes it easy for companies to get a SOC2 report fast. Twist listeners can get $1,000 off for a limited time at Vantan. www.com slash twist. Squarespace. Turn your idea into a new website. Go to squarespace.com slash twist for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code twist to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

And lemon. You need to speed up your product development without draining your budget? Hire vetted engineers from Europe at lemon.io. Go to lemon. dot i.o slash twist to get 15% off for the first four weeks. All right, big newsday today. It's Tuesday. Once again, my phone's blowing up.

It's so weird. It's so weird. So weird. I'm just here to talk about the big, big, big acquisition news in the tech industry today. Poshmark. Oh, is that being bought? Anything else at M&A that we should talk about? Or not talk about?

For those of you who are not joining us last. I just want you to know it is now 1033 a.m. And it was at roughly, what, 9.57 or 9.50 that the breaking news alert came down. 942 a.m. is when I got the Wall Street Journal breaking news alert saying Elon Musk proposes closing Twitter deal at original terms. Billionaires lawyers sent a letter overnight making the proposal. Got it. The end. Okay.

Well, congratulations on your purchase and... Congratulations, Twitter, I guess. Congratulations Twitter. Trading shares of Twitter were halted almost immediately after, but before they were halted, they climbed as much as 18% on the news, as you might imagine. Because that climb put them at 4793, which is still, you know, a little bit under the offer price of $54.20. cents per share.

Yeah, so obviously, if you've read in the press or my app mentions and my haters, I'm a little bit dragged into this, although I'm not super involved in it, if I'm being honest, and I have a couple ideas, I think,

for the brand. A couple of ideas on the margins. I think some of them are good. I'll talk about all this when this is buttoned up, but I can't get too into details about anything, and just to be very clear, I don't know anything. I literally do not know anything. So I didn't know this was going to happen. Don't know any details, just so we're super clear. And I do think Twitter under new management

could be an amazing platform. I think it's got tremendous potential. I've said that forever. I think it's got incredible, incredible potential. And if you can land two rockets at the same time and build a million electric cars, whatever it is, I think you could just, just bite my time on that one. Definitely not the same jobs. But we'll see. I guess we'll see. I guess we'll see.

All we know is that this is where things stand now. I cannot imagine any scenario in which the board is going to say no to the price that is a significant premium over what the stock has been trading at. And very likely, it may have been finally pointed out that like contracts are contracts. And that should you lose this case? the Delaware court has the power to just like take your company if you don't all through. There's a lot of speculation on what they would do if the person didn't pay or something like that. You know, a crazy scenario like that. It's not even that crazy, right?

Like the Delaware court has the Delaware. If you incorporate in Delaware, those are the rules. That's why Delaware keeps everybody in line. I think it's a great jurisdiction for, it is the primary jurisdiction for doing startups for a reason. Exactly. Rules really matter. matter. Like, accountability matters, rules matter. And maybe that's what we're, maybe that's what we're seeing today.

As for the rest, who knows? Now is now, people. All we know is what's happening right now. So, yeah. Yep. All right. Let's talk about the other big acquisition. Sorry, I really can't. It's like, for me not being able to talk is. I can't even imagine what you're, do you feel it physically? Do you have a stomach ache? Like, it's kind of like getting stabbed with a kryptonite spear. You know, like, there's always like a scene where Lex Luthor is like about to get annihilated by like Superman

and the eyes are beaming up and he's about to like and then Lex Luthor's like, beep and you know, you just like, he stabs him with a you know, spear with a little tip of kryptonite and Superman is just honest. That's hard. It's like my krypton worst nightmare to not be able to talk. Not talking is my cryptic.

However, not giving my opinion. It's my kryptonite. Very, very smart of you. And I'm not going to bait you. any further. You've done a good job so far. I was like, ooh, the bait is just right there on the hook. Should jump out of the water.

By the time, really, I'm trying so hard, trying so hard. All right. Next. Poshmark. Poshmark. Let's just talk about Pashmark. Poshmark is a fashion, what do they call it, a subscription or a market place? It's a resale e-commerce marketplace.

So people, yeah. Yeah. So people resell, used goods. It's super popular with. the kids because you can get, you know, cool stuff cheaper. There's sort of like Poshmark and D-Pop are the two big competitors in this space for kind of resale e-commerce. However, despite being very popular with the kids, Poshmark is being acquired by the South

Korean e-commerce company, Navercorp for $1.2 billion that values it at $1.6 billion, which sounds perfectly respectable. However, it is also less than half the price of when. Poshmark went public in early 2021. Its peak market cap was $7.3 billion, which it hit on the day it went public. Its competitors include Deepop, like I mentioned, of course, also thread up the consignment shop, Facebook Marketplace, and the Real Real. And this is just an interesting, this kind of raised this question.

We're seeing this circular economy thing get more popular, resale of close. Yeah. But also. there's this question of like direct to consumer e-commerce, I guess, and how hard it is a lot. There's a lot of things going on here. Thrifting is a trend. So this is a big deal.

My daughter who's 12 and some of her friends, they like to go thrifting. So whatever town we're in, you know, we were in Tahoe and there's like five thrifting stores on Lake Tahoe or around there. And this is like an activity to go thrifting for young kids today. and I took my daughters for ice cream. My daughter had a blazer.

She had thrifted. Five college-aged women came over to my daughter at the ice cream store to compliment her on her outfit and wanted the details. And, you know, she's showing them the labels and how much she made for it. Thrifting is. Oh, it's a huge. It's a huge thing. My son has gone on several dates that consisted specifically of like thrifting. and then going out for lunch.

Like, it's a hot activity. That's it. That's really interesting. So whenever you're running a startup and you see like some energy like this, you can kind of ride that wave, right? And so you don't have to create the wave. The wave exists for a reason. And so what is the core reason this exists?

Well, there's a generation who I think care very deeply about the planet. They've probably read or learned, perhaps even been indoctrinated to, this concept that, hey, the planet is screwed and everything matters. And so what matters, like spilling dyes and, you know, creating things that you don't need, all these Amazon boxes showing up to your home, I think it's just a generational shift that that's lame. It's lame to, you know, what are the, what's, and then this fast fashion, which is the other trend that I think these are kind of like two opposing tides. Fast fashion is, hey, you could buy a Coachella outfit, if I'm correct, like for 15 bucks, but it's disposable.

And like, you do not expect these clothes to last. They're not built to last. They're going to be shredded and thrown away. This used to be your H&M, a little bit, your Zara, and now it's all sheen all the time. Sheen right. And in fact, there was just a, it's so interesting because you have these two opposing Gen Z forces. Like, one is, you know, wanting to shop more sustainably and being aware of the climate crisis and wanting to do thrifting because that's really cool.

But then when there was like a Instagram, Gen Z's favorite brands. And Shane was like up there. It was above any clothing retailer. That's fascinating. So I guess they love it. And there's

a other thing of they're not all indoctrinated. Well, I mean, I think it's a good indoctrine. This is an indoctrination that I think is pretty great. It's a religious kind of for I find with a young kids, you know, on certain topics these days. They're very passionate about, you know, certain things if you live in California.

And one of them is sustainability. And it's really been drilled into them like the world's ending. And this, your buying of clothes is part of that. And it's like, okay, great. That's not true. But okay, sure. It's every little bit helps, I'm sure. And I think it also has to do with this,

controlling your spending is another trend that's going on here which is I notice a lot on like social media and TikTok there are young people counting up how much

they spend every day now this was a device in magazines right you'd have a magazine they'd show you like all the different clothes that somebody bought and what they cost right

but I remember when we were growing up it was kind of aspirational like you should be buying these I was like I remember somewhere there's like $30 Armani socks and I was like

who pays $30 for a I can buy like, I was like a tech pack of socks for $12. I was like, oh, you mean when you graduated from Old Navy to Gap? And then when you had made enough money that you could go from Gap to Banana Republic, that was it. You had arrived. Yeah. And, you know, there was always another level to go to, right?

And I think now they've kind of, people are opting out of that treadmill of what's the next brand that I can afford that I can trade up to. And you also start with cars. People started with, you know, whatever, a Honda. civic and oh maybe I could afford to use Volvo and maybe I could afford to sob and you know obviously Mercedes and BMW became like the the height of you know what a young person could aspire to own for their car I get the sense that people are taking a different approach to this which is kind of awesome because if you don't if you don't

put yourself on that treadmill in college I think maybe the thing that broke people your higher education costs if you just opt out of all that which I've actually done in my life a bit. Man, your stress level just goes way down. My stress level is super low because I don't waste money on nonsense. Like, I don't fly private jets. I don't, you know, stay

at ridiculously expensive hotels. Some kid was perplexed that I was in coach the other day and was like, well, there were no first class seats available, but also because they were like, you're like, absurd as I. To be fair, I also was pretty perplexed too, but no, I routinely say if I am

traveling under three hours, I don't care. you know, if it's a regular, if it's not like a big different, sure, I'll take a business quest ticket, whatever. But I'm kind of like, if it's, if it's absurd, you know,

I don't mind, you know, being in a coach and people are kind of upset at me for it. I had like two different people like, what are you doing in coach on like the same trip? One going and one coming back. They're like, what are you doing flying? One was because I was flying coach.

One was because I was flying commercial. And I'm like, number one, like, how rich did that? thing I am. Number two, like, why would I fly a private jet alone? Yeah. It's kind of lame. I mean, no offense to my friends who fly alone. I understand if you have to do it for a business or something or if you own the plane already, but yeah, but I'll see you just kind of want to. I mean, the question of aspiration, like aspiration drives human society. We talked about this at CNET all the time when we were talking about programming, what we used to call programming

the front door, like deciding what stories we're going to go on the front page. In the old days, kids, sweet summer children. There used to be a thing called a homepage. Yeah. And editorial. And people would go to the homepage to find information. And then you would carefully choose what information should go there so that people would enjoy it and click on it.

Those days are... Those days are long gone. Their own. Exactly. It was actually a little stepping stone. It became the homepage for the whole world. Well, yeah, you had to type in what you wanted. But there was also a...

I don't know if you remember this one. There was the my craze. So you would put my. Dot Yahoo, my dot Google, my dot Lycos, and my. dot AOL. And so their idea was,

you could program your own homepage. So before there were algorithms, you would go to your AOL or Yahoo homepage, and you would say, okay, on the left-hand side, I'll put my stocks. On the right-hand side, I'll put my sports.

Top-middle is going to be my news. And then I want my email after that. Then I want my weather over here. And you had these widgets. And there were entire startups, I kid you're not, created to be homepages. And it was a really clever idea

because every time you would open a new tab, boom, your heads-up display was there. Really, really cool idea. It's literally what we were talking about yesterday, actually, is like give me the ability to program my own experience. Don't, you know, don't push it on me. Anyway. It turned out, by the way, when I went to AOL

and I saw my company there and I said, hey, let me talk to the team there. It turned out like 2% of AOL users ever changed anything on their whole day. Exactly. No one ever did. Nobody ever wanted to take the time to do it. And that's why the algorithm won, because asking people to do anything, is going to result in them probably not doing anything. Yep, 100%.

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However, this purchase at this discounted price is this macroeconomic, do we think? Or does it say something about e-commerce and thrifting online? Well, it's being bought by Naver. Naver is like the Google of Korea. I actually met the team there. It was part of my inspiration for Mahalo in the early days because at the time Google was 10 Blue Links and I had seen Naver, my wife is Korean, I had been to Korea.

And there was a company called Down, d-a-u-m dot net, and there was Naver. These were like the Yahoo Google there. They had all the search market share. There are countries, Molly, where the citizens are very much nationalistic and they only want to use their brands that are built in that country.

So if you were to look at Google expanding around the world, there were like four or five countries they really didn't dominate in. Yandex and Russia, Yahoo Japan, which was run by Masayoshi-San, and was a completely different experience.

And Nava and Down were, and also Taiwan, also big Yahoo users. So, because Jerry Yang, I believe, was Taiwanese. And I'm correct if that was the story. So anyway, Niver bought it.

They're a big portal. I think this sounds to me like they have a thesis, right? We talked about the thesis for Figma, right? okay, they're a potential competitor. Okay, we get all those accounts. The market for people who need the Adobe Suite is this.

You know, I'm holding my hands out about six inches wide. And then if I were to hold my hands out all the way to the entire population, that's Canva. And then somewhere between Canva and the Adobe Suite is the Figma population. Anybody in business could have a Figma account because everybody in business has something to say about the product, probably. Maybe not, I don't know, people in the cafeteria maybe don't, I don't know, people in the proverbial mailroom. maybe don't. So I think there's a, probably a thesis here, which is the, this company is number one at thrifting or, you know, a very big player in thrifting, and they think this is a global phenomenon. And I think that's actually kind of an interesting thing, too. I wonder if moving

these products around the world could increase prices. So we take all of the phones from America, people know, they go to South America, they go to Africa, they go to emerging markets, in some cases frontier market. So, you know, an iPhone 10 in a frontier market is like an iPhone 14, right? It's going to be much better than the average phone there. So I have a feeling they have a thesis, and I don't know exactly what it is.

But this is the bargain basement shopping we're going to see. The fact that Peloton has gotten taken out, to me is shocking. BuzzFeed hasn't gotten taken out. I mean, I think you're going to just see a ton of these what they call tuck-in acquisitions. So a tuck-in is an acquisition that's less than one or two percent. Let's just put a number on it, like less than 3%, 4% of the value of a company.

So neighbor versus this, I don't know what neighbor's worth, but it's got to be $50, $100 billion. So I have a feeling this is a tuck-in acquisition, and they probably have a theory. Hey, how can we make this go 10x from here? Well, a little more on the circular economy, Goodwill is making a push to its online stores. I'm super excited about this, launching its curated marketplace of donated goods to compete with Poshmark and the real real and they're calling it goodwill finds so they're just taking all the work out of you know discovering that someone accidentally or not um dropped up like I'm calling it goodwill finds what a terrible name they could have just as easily oh you don't

do it's not just call it hunting no the find is the key they are finding it they took did all the hunting together I see where I see where you're going there but I see where you're going okay I'll give it to you points you have me Wow, that was a slow burn on my part. That's embarrassing. That shows you how excited I am about the fact that I literally found like a burberry button down on Goodwill finds. Because in thrifting brain, I was like, what? I have to say not for me.

Italy, Italian herringbone chain. Oh my God. And then it all goes back to Goodwill and to charity when you shop there. And it's going to include high-end fines like Real Real. Great. I love this stuff. I love this. I'm like...

No, wait, I don't understand how Goodwill works. This is a non-profit. You give them stuff. You get a tax write-off. They take your stuff and then they put it in a store and they sell it.

Yes. And they made more... It says here in our notes, according to Bloomberg, they made more than $5.4 billion in donated goods, retail revenue across the U.S. Canada last year.

And they helped a hundred thousand... They used the proceeds, the net proceeds. Net proceeds basically been proceeds to help. It's always felt that was a redundant statement. The profits went to train 100,000 people to get full-time jobs

every year. Fascinating. I didn't know that their mission was to help people get trained for full-time jobs. Great. Awesome. Why not make their mission to give people high-paying jobs at the Goodwill stores? Oh, they do that too. They do that too? They definitely give people

jobs at the stores, yeah. Yeah. Seems to me, like, yeah, I mean, training's great, but I mean, if Goodwill is such a great business. Just taking every bit of money and then making really high-paying jobs would be like the total flex. I've always been, somebody asked me on, I've been doing like an after-all in call-in show on the call-in app and taking questions. Somebody asked me, you know, what's going on in nonprofits? I said, you know, nonprofits are very challenging as a operating system for a startup.

Because you can't really make a profit. make a profit, it causes all kinds of problems, you're under all the scrutiny, the overhead of running a non-profit, it's also hard. So I said, if you really want to do a non-profit, just do what I call a four-break-even. Just spend all the money every year on whatever it is you want to do and just call it a four-break-even because you get a lot more flexibility and optionality. If Goodwill was an actual for-profit, they could take the Patagonian kind of approach, right? I think Patagonian is like a four-break-even, right? All the profits eventually went towards this trust. So Goodwill should just flip to being a four-profit.

and say, we're going to pay absurd salaries with great benefits to our employees and just make it like, they could show Amazon exactly what would happen if all the profits, you know, and gains went to the employees. Love it. Seriously, write that down, Goodwill. It's excellent. And then the circular economy is getting so big that Google just announced that it's creating an online-only startup accelerator focused on the circular economy. So companies that are, yeah. Didn't they just lay off half the people at their accelerator? I don't know.

Maybe they didn't like that one and now they want this one. But it's companies, so they'll be doing this accelerator. It's a 10-week program for companies that are focused on deliberately reusing, repairing, and recycling. Instead of producing goods that wind up as waste will offer mentorship and technical support through a mix of one-to-one and one-to-many learning sessions and applications for that accelerator opened yesterday. So go through that and then call me at the climate syndicate. Let's talk. Google for startups. Yeah, this is their program.

Google for startups. They've been doing this for a while, and they have an accelerator there. I don't know if they invest in your company or not. I don't know anybody who's gone through their accelerator. I love to meet them. A lot of times these accelerators are to help you, are onboarding for their cloud computing, you know, offering.

So they'll, you know, not to be cynical or anything about it, still valid. And if you go to it, I think it does help validate you because there's some selection process. There's no dig to it, but I do think that is typically... In the first paragraph of the tech grudge story, even, it's like the efforts, the latest to help environmentally focused startups grow

while potentially hooking them on its cloud products in the process. Oh, okay, yeah. So I was just given that as a clarifier, that it's not a financial thing. It's a, they're kind of trying to get, they're trying to tick off customers, tick off, not like upset, but to, you know, intercept customers before they start using AWS.

It's a very smart strategy, by the way. I think Google is brilliant. for doing it. Yeah. And more folks should do it. Yeah, absolutely. And if it, listen, I mean, if they end up incubating great startups for me, I'm stoked.

Yeah. So this is a theme class. We consider doing theme classes. The problem when you're running an accelerator of doing a theme, Molly, is it's really hard to find startups that are in the stage of their life. It's probably a six-month window, six to 18-month window, when a startup would consider an accelerator. It's hard enough to find people who are in that window

and that if you narrow it to a specific vertical, it's particularly hard. But if you're doing it and you don't care about how much money you're putting in in the deal, because they're not putting money in here, I think they'll just give them credits. Then anybody can join it and it's virtual. So you don't have to, you know, just show up once a week, I think,

probably, and just pitch your startup and stuff like that. So congratulations to them. And I think it's super cool. And it's just an interesting market development, too. I don't think it's an Interesting. Well, it's interesting to think that we're at the point where we're having conversations. It is as yet unproven.

But we're having conversations about whether you can build a venture scale business selling used stuff. Like that is a fascinating inflection point, I think. Hey, everybody, you know Squarespace is the platform where you can build or sell anything. You know it. I've talked about it forever. It's the longest running sponsor here, I think, on the old This Week in startups. We love it at launch. for all our different projects, including

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This is the best bang for the buck, folks. Squarespace.com slash twist. Amazing, amazing, amazing product. I have a way to do it that I think these folks should go to. I think. Sorry. No, I love it. I love it when it's just like the idea machine turns on.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Open the hose. Go. Hold on. Let me just have a sip of my grenade. Grande. I have an idea.

I have an idea. Where's my phone? I have another idea. Sorry, I'm enthusiastic, folks. I mean, if you're going to tell me I'm a loyal friend and I'm enthusiastic and have a lot of ideas, guilty as charged. Yeah. Guilty as charge. Oh, and I'm a great capital allocator, by the way.

There could be worse. There could be worse things. Guilty as charge on all counts. Here's a great idea. Make this a membership. So to be a member, you just pay a hundred bucks a year to be part of these communities. Unlimited buying and selling trading between parties or through the central location. But there's no transaction fees.

You just put it up for whatever price you want. You pay your stripe, whatever. You can put your own stripe in. You can list anything you want. You could have an API to list it, whatever. You just have to have a membership and you take all the fees out. Because I think the fees is what gets expensive here, is the markups on these things. I know eBay sellers got really concerned about that.

but if you had to have a membership to get in there, then the business would be sustainable. So what Goodwill should do is they should make it an online membership for their online store, a 50 bucks a year donated to Goodwill, and then you get access to everything, or you get access for the first 30 days, something's online, and after on the 31st day, anybody who's non-members can see it.

Or actually, everybody can see everything, but only members can buy stuff in the first 30 days. Oh, that's it. Sorry, I had to bring to, I was, the gears were churning here. You just wait right here. And here's an idea. Anyway, I think that would be a more sustainable idea. If somebody wants to build,

this is a request for starting. Like Josh got one of our notice is saying, listen to these punchups and email us. Well, somebody just build an MVP or come to a founding university with this idea. Pretty good chance I'll just give you. If you built an MVP and mocked it up and figma and something like that, I'd probably just give you the 25K that we give at the end of the program at the beginning of the program. I'm doing that with an influencer who I,

think is incredible, has a million followers. And I was just like, come to founding aversity, and we'll give you the first 25K investment to quit your job. You know, we'll take 2.5% and you can go have the money to incorporate. So somebody who's a product person, I don't, don't, don't, no idea people. Somebody who actually knows how to build a product. So it be no code. You can build it with no code, by the way.

You can build this in bubble or Notion or Zapier or some combination of those things. Yeah. Do it. Do it. Start a company. Hey, on TikTok, you ever have this guy who was like, he's got really long hair and a beard and he's like jacked

and he comes charging at the screen and he says, go to the gym, go to the effing gym, go to the gym. You ever see this guy? We've talked about this. I only have dogs. This is my favorite guy. Some other animals, but.

It's like, I'll go to the gym, but his whole stick. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. He has his cup of coffee and he comes like around from like a tree and he starts like charging at you like a bull and yelling at you to go to the gym. gym. I was like, I know you didn't go to the gym yesterday. I told you to go to the gym yesterday. You didn't go to the gym today. Go to the gym today. You didn't go yesterday. You're going to the gym today. This is why I got to get my burner TikTok. I got to get a burner TikTok just so I can see all the things that are on TikTok that are not cute animals and interspecies snuggles. Here's an idea. Okay. What a surprise? Here's an idea. You can just text this to me. You can just text this to me. Nobody will ever see it.

Here's an idea. So many jokes that will... I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Okay. Here's an idea. TikTok in the cloud.

I will... You can offer a service for 10 bucks a month, and you can open up to 10 TikTok instances in the cloud, like virtual TikToks. Mm-hmm. Create whatever login you want for it. and then start swiping and have it swipe 10 times a day, whatever, so it keeps the things active, and just send them on different things. You can have one for fashion.

Right. So, basically have personas in the cloud. So you can pull it up on your desktop and be like, this is my fashion TikTok. This is my travel TikTok. This is my food TikTok. And you just do 10 food searches. You do 10 fashion searches, but you just separate them out. That's so awesome. Just instances. Because I don't want to create a different account and a password and this and that. Give me instances. Oh, so good. This is what a lot of hackers do is they will run for privacy. They'll run a virtual desktop on their desktop. So here I'm on a Mac or if I'm on Windows or a Chrome,

you can pop up with AWS like a Windows desktop. They pop up a Windows desktop. Boom, they have everything in there. They're using an IP address. And those virtual desktops, then when the desktop goes away, whose desktop was it? What was it doing? What was the IP?

What are the cookies? It doesn't matter. It's just a desktop. And I think you can do virtual. Somebody correct me in the notice. Is there a way to pop up a virtual iOS instance in the cloud? I know you can do it for Android, I'm sure. But iOS may not let you do that.

Well, there probably is a developer version. For developers, yes, but I don't think it would feel to Apple like it was an actual iOS thing. You have to just get a burner phone, I guess, would be the easier way to do it mirror to your desktop. But yeah, that's like a little spy craft thing. That's how a lot of spy craft works. Great man. Hashtag gray man.

Yeah. I finally downloaded. book, I'm up to book six in the Grey Man series. I have to literally, and I was like, I'm not allowed to open this until after like the investment of it. You know, I was like, you can't even listen to these. I'm so addicted to them. Okay, I can't wait to hear what ideas you have for liquid death.

Sorry. Today's, uh, my pet and Peter Faddleman. Yeah. Huge fundraising news. Just bananas. This is one of those products that came into market and every, and the, and the collective snicker was heard around the world, right? like we need more manly water.

And they created this water. It's water. It's in a can actually. So it's way more environmentally friendly than plastic, right? Forever chemicals out. It's tallboys of water with cool design. And Liquid Death just raised how much money, $70 million at a $700 million. evaluation. So all y'all

were wrong, horribly wrong. You were so wrong. So, you know, water in a can, bees. I saw this and I was like, I drink sparkling water. I love having salsa out of a can. That's like one of my favorite things. I like the mouth

feel of a can. Love it. Roy. I like, I'm, well, I'm a glass than can, then plastic. Probably like most people. Yeah. But, you know, I used to like to get a salsa water when I lived in New York out of a can. And I saw this. And my friend Peter Pham from science, you know, was the, I guess he's a co-founder of it,

or they incubated it with another guy. This is really just about, you know, you have a party and you don't want to use plastic, right? So a lot of the, my understanding is a lot of the music festivals, the angle they've used is they can sell these cans for more money. And you feel terrible using plastic. And again, back to like a generational shift. even our gen X, we know about plastics. Like we were, we were started, started, they started to indoctrinate us into like this,

like, don't use plastic. I now, if somebody gives me a straw, I hand it right back to them. Plastic straw, I hand it right back to them and say, you have paper. And like, a number of times I've done that, the person says, it is paper. And I'm like, oh, sorry.

You can't tell the difference when they give it to you. I'm like, sorry, I don't, is it, I don't want to use plastic. And I use metal straws at home. So I think that's the beginning of this, is that a lot of these festivals get to say, hey, we are zero, plastics. And you know what, it's, you can actually report like a net zero or a waste thing. It goes into your scope three emissions. Like it's all. Yeah. If you're doing those things. Yeah. And if, but if you're having a backyard party, you're probably like nobody's doing like scope three emissions report. No. But these look a lot cooler. And you feel that. And you feel that way. And you feel that. And then I think, uh, on top of that, you probably underreported is when you don't drink alcohol and you get pressure to drink alcohol, anybody who's a young person has been through. And then I think, uh, on top of that, you probably underreported is when you don't drink alcohol and you get pressure to drink alcohol. Anybody who's a young person has been

through this. I used to order cranberry and club soda when I didn't drink and I was at bars in my youth. And people were like, what are you drinking? Vaca cranberry? I'm like, yeah. Yeah. You know, whatever. I don't drink. I don't like alcohol. It makes me feel terrible. So, you know, I have a glass of champagne once in a while.

I love clicko. Or like a dessert one. And so I would drink that just because it would take the pressure off. Because people wouldn't give me a hard time when I was in my 20s. And so I think a lot of people who will be drinking these, it's like people think it's a you know, whatever,

uh, like, uh, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Looks like a drink. Right.

It's got kind of a macktail. Like the mottale thing is really in right now. It's got that kind of mottale vibe slash you could think that it was a white or some other hard seltzer drink. Like it really, I mean, 100% this is a social engineering success story. Correct.

Like cool branding. Right. The wave of environmental consciousness that we, you know, started talking about with Poshmark. and giving people kind of social comfort. I think also they have flavors

too. Do they thought it was literally still just water? That's how they started and that became kind of like a joke and they wrote it. But now if you go to their website, they have like the mountain water from the Alps,

but they do sparkling water now and they have lime. Okay. Mango chainsaw. It's more of like a La Croy situation after all then. Some are claiming, by the way, that liquid death is the fastest growing non-alcoholic beverage ever. Yeah.

Which I love, honestly, I mean, compared to energy drinks, like compared to all this other crappy stuff, like, great. Sell us awesome water. I mean, yes, you can get it from the tap. You definitely can do that and you can put it in a bottle and fill it up and take you with you. Take it for me. Hiring developers is really hard. And so many startups struggle to hire fast enough to keep up with demand. So lemon.io is going to help you hire better developers, and they're going to help you do it faster.

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You're not going to believe this in under a week. And of course, it's more affordable. I can't tell you how many companies I know are burning money every month, but their product's not improving. And if your product doesn't improve, well, then you can't make money. You can't hit your milestones. You need developers to hit your milestones. You don't hit your milestones. Investors will not put more money in, and you won't get revenue coming in from your customers, okay? So if you want to save time, you want to get a great developer, you want to save money, all you have to do is go to lemon.io slash twist, and they'll give you 15% off your first four weeks. That's right, 15% off your first four weeks when you go to lemon,

L-E-M-O-N dot-io slash twist. It is so hard to find developers. They are so expensive, and that's why you need lemon.com. It shows you that branding does matter. So like packaging and branding does matter, less people don't think it does. So if you have a startup, you know, and Apple figured this out very early. They said, let's just take our time building products. We don't have to be first to market. We should just make it the most beautiful thing in market. And the packaging matters. So Apple

mango chains up. Made unboxing so good that the Engadgette team created the concept when I was running it. Peter and Ryan literally created the concept of unboxing. And what they would do is, and I was like, guys, you're wasting time. This is crossing a bandwidth. There's 40 photos of

you taking your laptop out of the box. And they're like, and I said, the bandwidth is getting crazy, you know, can you just put like four photos? They're like, no, we put it in a gallery. That's why we have so many goddamn page use. People are hitting the next button, the next button. They love the step-by-step story of unpacking it. They like to see, like literally the Apple fans like to see the paper being peeled off the back of the whatever product was, the iPad or whatever.

And the unboxing experience. It was. And, you know, now I think we're at the point where the unboxing, the packaging maybe works against the environmental message. But this is just great. It shows you what consumers, I really like to think about how consumers change over generations. Now that there are two,

three generations really after us. And watching that change is wonderful, right? Like, I think overall. Yeah. And this is part of that generational shift. It's like, the idea that a young person would buy a plastic bottle, they're just like, ugh. Yeah.

And I did at my events, there are water purifying machines and they chill water and they're high pressure. So I don't know if we have a link to one of them but I could show it to you. They're like a bunch of taps and you roll this machine in,

you run hoses, it filters the water in real time, it cools it in real time and when you pull the tap, you know when you go fill a water bottle it's like trickle, trickle, trickle, this thing you pull the tab. It's like a pump on,

on it and you get 10 taps there. And then what we do is we would sell glass bottles with the launch logo on it for five bucks. You know, we buy them for, you know, two or three bucks. Put the launch bottle on. And people would say, hey, can I get some water? We're like, yeah, right over there. Buy a bottle. And we have a contigo for, you know, 30 bucks.

We got a Yeti for 50 bucks. We got a generic bottle for $2. We wanted to put a cost on it because then when people bought the glass bottle, they wouldn't throw it away because it's like, oh, it's going to cost me $2. I have to go back. I'm going to have more water. I'm going to keep it, right? And so I know this sounds really crazy, too, and people are going to make fun of me.

But I will travel with my contiga. And I bring some of my beverages with me in little packets. Like I have my little athletic greens or I'll have like sports drink, liquid IV, I have the packets for. And so when I'm traveling, I will wash that out of my hotel sink. She get, you know, or in the bathroom. And then at a lot of airports, uh, will be filtered water stations and I'll put a liquid IV in there

or in the morning time I'm athletic cream, shake it up, boom, I'm good. Wait, I think people are going to make fun of you for that? Doesn't everyone do that? Does everybody do that now? Carry like a contigo with them in their backpack? I don't know. Yeah, or some kind of a water bottle and have all your beverages and yeah, 100%.

I mean, I don't know. Listen, I'm here in the bubble, so not really sure. Maybe it's because actually the times I've had people be like, what are you doing? Like, I think it's been when I've been with rich people on private jets. And they're, you know, I'm drinking from a contigo and they're just like, what are you doing? Like, we have crystal on the plane, you know, whatever it is. It is fascinating, though.

And like to have five generations basically shopping right now all at the same time, right? Because you have everybody from boomers to Gen Z and to keep, like, keep an eye on this to bring it back to the startup and investment lens. Yeah. Look at this. Next time you're tempted to laugh at like super well-branded water in a can, ask yourself if there's a market there and think accordingly. because apparently there's a huge margin. This may be a crazy valuation. I think this is lightning in a bottle, though.

Lightning in a can. Thank you. This is lightning in a can. For sure. It's like, it's like, good. Thank you.

Thanks. Get there. Get there. It is lighting and a can. Most people are not going to be able to do this. I implore you to stay out of the beverage business unless you have a specific passion and a really, really clever idea.

The world is. not need like the 10th, you know, whatever. Yeah. Drink. We really have a really good thesis. Be thoughtful. ID to C is so hard. So hard.

And by the way, this is the greatest success story ever and it's worth 700 million. You know, like, if you were an investor and you invested in this. He's making some faces. Well, I mean, if you invested at this at 50 million or 100 million or 25 million, like, and then you got diluted by 50%, you know, and you had put a million dollars into it.

you own 2%, now you own 1%, okay, you got $7 million on a million dollar investment, whatever it was. Like, it's just hard to make. It's a hard way to make money, DTC. Yeah. DTC very hard. Very hard. Does not scale gracefully.

This is, and this has also been, what, is this a six, seven year story now? I think so. And it's a 3x growth, right? 3x year over year growth. That's impressive. And it's now, it's a, oh, it's a three year story. It's only three years. Oh, yeah.

Fastest growing non-alcoholic beverage ever. I mean, this one really is a rocket chip. it is yeah but hard to replicate however take note of the changing the changing values and the changing tastes of consumers here if you are in this space because

it's super relevant another thing that the Gen Zs and the millennials are super into thank goodness is mental health yes and this is just a really interesting like VCs and startups going really mainstream kind of celebrity culture story mental health focus startup called Wondermind that was co-founded by Selena Gomez and her mom just launched its website this week and raised a seed round

from Serena Williams' new VC firm. They raised, but this is where this gets kind of fascinating. The startup just launched its website this week, raised $5 million at a $100 million valuation. Hold on. Spit take. I mean, oh my Lord. Yeah, I'm sorry. So 100 million, so they have 10, 20 million in revenue?

They have a, I'm sorry, I'm looking, I'm pretty sure it's no revenue, right? Yep, none. But it does have a 500,000 person email list. So you can see how that math worked out. Well, I would say a consumer email, you can actually put a value on them, probably worth 50 bucks each. So, you know, that is a $25 million asset maybe. if you'd think you could monetize at $10 a year for a generic consumer

maybe $5 a year, $10 a year and five years you could make $50 per person you might value them at $50. If it was a B2B, if this was like actual psychologists or it was people in the drug industry, you know, a vertical B2B newsletters. Those might each be worth $100 to $300 each because you know, they're very specific and targeted. So email

else newsletters can be worth some money, the value for each one. That's no joke to get 500,000 subscribers. See, look at that. Amazing. Although there's still some first law stuff here happening, right? $100 million valuation, no revenue. This is, it's not quite Jason's law because it's not all the way there. No, no.

And they have the email newsletter. True value of the startup, probably $25 million. We don't know how much they make per year with that email newsletter. Let's say that $500,000, and let's say, you know, it makes, I don't know, every week, 100,000 from the newsletter, could be $5 million of revenue, could be $2.5 million of revenue if they're sold out, possibly. The great news about this is when you have a celebrity who has hundreds of millions of followers like Selena Gomez does or Serena Williams does, the acquisition cost for some emails could go to zero. So if Serena were to write an article every month in this or a journal, like and put it into the email, or Selena did this like every other week, you could see that be a creative like Gwana the Palchro's Goop Newsletter. So you can use celebrity to convert and buying emails. I think most of the, like the morning brew, I think they were spending like 50 or 100 bucks to acquire emails back in the day.

And, you know, then they hope that one out of three sticks around. So it can get quite expensive. The skim was the other one that was a email newsletter company. Oh, I loved the skim. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this really, Selena Gomez has 349 million followers on Instagram. 349 million. So, I mean, it's not.

So, yeah, I mean, when you look at it that way, 50 to 100 to $200 to $200, you know, per subscriber, the question is how will they monetize and we don't really know. at the moment, it appears, it's mostly content. So I don't know if it is expected to be sort of a, people are calling it like a more celebrity version of psychology today or WebMD, for people who are searching for content around mental health. And they have 11, an advisory committee of 11 mental health professionals to make sure the content is accurate, responsive, inclusive, and relevant. I mean, I would say it sort of sounds like a more scientifically backed

goop and we know that goop has been really successful and has had a lot of product offshoots and a lot of merch integrations and i think this is like the right product at the right time with a couple of beloved celebrities around it there's a great subscription opportunity here i've looked at a lot of mental fitness apps it is a real thing um and the delivery of mental health services through uh apps or the web is a real thing obviously we're investors in com which some people use as part of their mental health practice, right, to lower anxiety to be more intentional. And so there is a whole category, if you want to look it up, of behavioral therapies, dialectical behavioral therapy, DBT, C, that's cognitive behavioral therapy. Basically,

treatments that you can deliver, the modality would be filling out a survey, doing a journal entry, and then doing that in coordination and BetterHelp is a tremendous company that does virtual therapy. And so there could be, if this aggregates enough people, the ability to add to it those type of things for a subscription

and maybe even provide mental health services. So there's, like many things in healthcare, there's content, WebMD, like here's some content. Then there's, services by mental health professionals. Well, what's in between those two things, right?

Exactly. There's going to college. There's like a Wikipedia page to get you education. What's in between those two things? And I think looking in between the two extremes, like free content on YouTube, free content on Wikipedia, and then giving $100,000 to a college institute, well, there's brilliant.org, which we're investors in. That for a masterclass, which we're not investors in.

You can fill in between these two extremes. So I think that would be my best advice here if I was an investor in it is like, what can we do in between people going to better help or going and finding a therapist? And one of them might be a paid subscription, 10 bucks a month, get meditation maybe, maybe get here is a journaling product. And I get pitched on these all the time. I've been looking for an app to invest in actually because I think people would pay 50 bucks, 100 bucks a year for an app that made them more great. grateful, lower their anxiety, you know, a little bit of what Calm does, a lot of what, uh, dialectical behavior therapy from yeah, I think I'm practicing that correct. I'm looking up, um, by the way, how much people spent on have been spending recently on

astrology. And I'm imagining that, no, but seriously, right? You look something. It is related. I'm feeling like this. I have this mental health crisis. I don't know how to deal with this or that or whatever. And by the way, I don't mean mental health crisis in the sense where it's like an acute emergency. It's just like, I feel like this and I don't know what to do. And you look that up online and you end up at like astrology apps. And so spending on astrology apps, users in one single month in the month of July of like 2021 spent more than $5.3 million on the top 10 highest grossing horoscope apps. It's considered during the pandemic, it became a 2.2 billion dollar industry.

Imagine capturing that with vetted mental health advice instead. And then all of a sudden, I am just all in on this $100 million value. Because people will spend a lot to take care of themselves right now. And right now, they're mostly ending up at like, hocus, focus. And don't be wrong, I read my horoscope every day. I did my rich chart. You know, the cost of doing this, the inconvenience of doing it, some people don't like to you know, go to therapists. Listen, if you were in distress and things are not going well for you,

go get help, of course. And then, you know, if, let me see if I can find one of these. I'm giving my producers like some of these worksheets. But here, you can pull up those two worksheets I just sent for the audience to see if you're on YouTube.com, such this weekend. And there are all these worksheets online. I can't, you actually see this one on my tiny teleprompter here, but urge surfing, a technique for managing your unwanted behavior. Right. So this is cognitive behavior. The school of, I was going to be a PhD in psychology. That was my dream. I was wondering. Yeah. You got it. I was going to be a clinical psychologist or go into forensic. And then, you know, after my psychology degree, I got derailed because of the internet. But anyway, this whole school of thinking is really interesting. Some people, they just need to have the tools to know how to deal with adversity in their life. And they give these to therapists or they give these to groups. There are groups. settings for this kind of stuff. And it, you know, there's deep psychotherapy, which like that requires a lot of skill, a lot of training. And then there are, you know, again, that between the

extremes going to like doing deep psychoanalysis or, you know, deep therapy or whatever therapy modality you choose, there's a bunch of different schools there. Um, there could be works that you could do. There are self-help books. Um, and you could productize these. I'm surprised people have not productize these. I've been waiting for. somebody to productize this category. I think part of it is like giving this kind of help to people without,

you know, having a therapist in the room. Maybe people are concerned of, you know, on outcomes or something like that. But, uh, yeah, I could imagine that. I think I'd be thoughtful about it. Promising these outcomes would be, yeah, exactly. But what we're seeing. Well, also, I think people just haven't seen it as a money making

industry because there was so much stigma around it, right? Like, we are actually at a real inflection point where it's possible that this could be the moment. It's time. Yeah, it's definitely time for this, yeah. Yeah. People will pay for it. We started journaling companies, a lot of those, and that became a thing.

So, and I just met somebody, I was at, I was at the Tesla AI day, and somebody came up, oh, I'm a huge fan. I worked at this big, large company. I just quit to do an app. It's reminded me, I got to email him back. And he had a really good idea just, you know, for helping people with a very specific type of emotional state. And I was like, wow, that's, I really.

interested to see where you go with that. I would pull that string and see where you go with it because I think you could do a lot to help people in very specific verticals with very specific techniques and just educate them

on what they're feeling, right? And I think this can be done without... There are aspects of this that can be done without an actual therapist with the disclaimer, hey, if you're

you're in some kind of acute situation, go to the emergency room type thing. And I think society is kind of getting a little more used to empowering people with information as opposed to, you know, having to go to the doctor every time you have some experience, right? You don't have to call your doctor for everything. I think there's probably things you could figure out on your own. Well, and there's a shortage of every single doctor, right? Like, we should acknowledge that part of the whole, part of the gap that this fills is that people can't get access to mental health care right now. Like sometimes, you know, really can't find a therapist. Like if you're in California, I think they're all the entire,

like all of Kaiser's mental health staff is on strike. Oh, great. And, and every therapist in America is completely overloaded because everyone is having a crisis. Like, this is really, yeah. I mean, I have like, you know, despite, this is why I keep listening to all the way to the end of this show, because despite where you start when you say $100 million and you spit out your tea, you end up like, are you guys still taking checks? Because. Yeah. I mean, here's the good news. Well, I mean, the good news is, like, they're going to have to fill in that valuation. Not investment advice, by the way.

Not investment advice. But, I mean, if they were tripling revenue and they did, you know, three million this year and they were on track to hit six to nine million next year, the valuation might make sense. If they had done one million, three million, and it was looking like they were going to do nine million next year, sure. Yeah. I don't think that's the case here. We don't see the revenue yet. So pre-revenue. Right now.

Okay. So if it's pre-revenue, it makes no sense. but the potential is there for this to be doing a couple of million dollars from the email newsletter alone starting tomorrow if they have 500,000 real email addresses on there for a consumer type email. Consumer emails need to hit millions,

B2B tens of thousands to make millions for obvious reasons. All right, great episode. Fascinating. Thanks for tuning in, everybody. Thanks for bearing with us through the awkward parts tomorrow. It'll get less awkward when this is all over. I like cannot wait. We should just we should just do a day.

We'll do a debrief. We'll do a day long debrief. Ah, yes, that'd be so great. It'll be amazing. We'll call it therapy. Stay tuned tomorrow. Tomorrow we have a new series starting. Oh, we do.

Which is going to be freaking fascinating. What is that? The 2022 edition of the next unicorns. Ah, yes. There could still be unicorns. Companies could still break out and become very successful. So we're going to find companies. that, you know, we think are in that

hundred million to $500 million valuation, you know, have gotten to that 10 or 20 million in revenue and that they could be the next companies that would be worth billions of dollars, and then obviously, if that happens, they could be companies that could eventually become publicly traded companies. So we like to do this every year. Try to figure out who's in that group.

And we actually need to go back. And we should get this week in startups.com slash next unicorn setup, Nick. And we should put a list of all the previous companies with links to their episodes. If that URL is not up yet when you, when you go to it, we'll have it up in the next day or two. But we should actually see if they did become unicorns.

That'd be good to look at our track. That is awesome. We should totally do that. Well, tomorrow we're going to interview a really interesting founder in a field related to investing your personal money, which is, again, so relevant to all of us. It's the disintermediation of everything. There is no more expertise. There's just like DIY with some online health.

It's going to be fascinating. All right. Stay tuned.