Threedom - Introducing: Pop Culture Debate Club with Ronald Young Jr.

Episode Date: November 30, 2024

Being a pop culture fan naturally comes with a lot of opinions. You’ve got your favorites and you’re ready to defend your picks at a moment’s notice. But who’s right, and who’s just plain wrong? That’s what Pop Culture Debate Club is here to decide. Each week, two notable mega-fans square off, ready to convince host Ronald Young Jr. that their opinion on TV, movies, music, and more is the only one that matters. And after carefully considering all the arguments, Ronald picks a winner. Will you agree with him?  This week, we’re debating which political TV show is better: Veep or The West Wing? Two familiar voices square off this week, with former host Aminatou Sow returning to argue on behalf of Veep and previous guest Hrishikesh Hirway taking the side of The West Wing. This is not going to be an easy decision for host Ronald Young Jr. to make! Aminatou says that recent political headlines prove that Veep is a realistic portrayal of American politics, warts and all, while The West Wing is a liberal fantasy. Hrishi contends that The West Wing wasn’t meant to be realistic and was rather an incredibly entertaining TV show, and that Veep’s satire became too biting to be enjoyable. Which show will Ronald cast his vote for? If you want to hear more episodes, search for Pop Culture Debate Club wherever you get your podcasts or click the link in the show notes. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, I'm Reshma Sajjani, founder of Girls Who Code. Look, I'd consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. I've written books, founded two successful nonprofits, and I'm raising two incredible kids. But here's the thing. I still wake up wondering, is this it? And if the best years are yet to come, when's that going to start? Join me on my so-called midlife, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, where we're building

a playbook for navigating midlife, one episode at a time. Each week, I'll chat with extraordinary guests who've transformed their midlife crisis into opportunities for growth and newfound purpose. At some point, we all ask ourselves, is there more to life? I'm here to discover how to thrive in my second act, right alongside you. My so-called midlife is out now,

wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Coolop Eulisak. And I'm Soojin Park. And we're your aunties on Add to Cart, a podcast all about the things we buy, the things we buy into, and what that says about who we are. We're real life friends who love to talk about what we're adding to cart. Sometimes that means trying the latest snail serum to slather on our faces, or a sweater that screams one third ugly.

That's right, Soo. Each week we dive into honest, oftentimes TMI conversations about what's taking up space in our shopping carts and in our minds, be it products, trends, or something for our auntie book club. We also bring guests on the show and take a peek into their carts because the things a person buys or doesn't says a lot about them.

We like to think of ourselves as aunties to all, fun, slightly unhinged, and always ready to share some sage advice and a good product wreck. Add to Cart is out now wherever you get your podcasts. Election season can be exhausting, especially if you're following the real-time updates. But rather than getting stressed out about who will become the new Commander-in-Chief, join us for a bit of a retrospective as we look back on two fictional U.S. presidential administrations and place them head-to-head.

On one side we have Julia Louis-Dreyfus leading an ensemble cast as Selina Meyer, the foul-mouthed, morally dubious vice president on Veep. Or Martin Sheen, who also leads an ensemble cast as President Jed Bartlett, the New England Democrat with a heart of gold on The West Wing. Which show is better, Veep or The West Wing? We make that decision once and for all, right here and right now on Pop Culture Debate Club. I'm Ronald Young Jr. So let's meet our panelists for the day.

I'm so honored to have switched chairs with the beloved host emerita of Pop Culture Debate Club, writer and culture critic Amanatu So. Hello and welcome back, Amanatu. Yeah, it's been so long, you know? Hi. It's good to have you. Yeah.

What's it been like a week? I guess, right? Yeah. That's what it, I don't know. I'm very bad at the calendar, so I trust you. Also joining us is musician, producer, and creator and host of the hit podcast, Song Exploder and the West Wing Weekly, and a fellow Radiotopia colleague, Rishi Kesh Hurway.

Hello Rishi. Hey Ronald, thank you so much for having me. I'm already intimidated knowing that I'm going up against both a PCDC insider and Beltway insider in Aminatou. You know, it's like the whole thing is a setup. Like, don't worry about it. You know, I love an underdog story. I'm the underdog.

I don't know, man. You, like, host a political podcast. Are you the underdog? This is what Washington people always say. They're the underdog when you've been an insider all along. Was it a political podcast or was it just a TV podcast? See, this is also what they say. This is also what they say.

Like giving you fruit when it's vegetables. I see what you're doing and it's not going to work with me. So I love this. I love that he's setting up the political theater by creating himself the position of underdog just to make sure that if and when he wins, he has some sort of already some sort of built-in support around the audience. So I think it's a good play, Rishi.

Oh yeah, I mean, expectation setting is the first part of any debate. The most important part is the pregame. Well, let's kick things off. Why don't we get acquainted with each of your shows? Aminatou, tell me the premise of Veep. Veep is centered around protagonist Selena Meyer, played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus, who is a fictional vice president of these United States. And the show, I guess, like follows

Selena Meyer and her entire team as they try to, you know, like, make a mark on American politics, but also do the thing that politicians are really trying to do, which is leave a legacy. And instead of doing all that good stuff, they're just, like, mired in the day-to-day of political nonsense. That's what Veep's about. I love it. Rishi, tell me the premise of The West Wing.

So, The West Wing is very similar to Veep in that it's a show set inside the White House. Don't try to align with my show. Don't try to align with my show. It's good strategy. I'm here to say there's more that unites us than divides us. You have my vote. And if you like... I like the idealistic plea. This is working.

Exactly. If you like that idealistic platitude, you would love The West Wing. Okay. I'm clapping for you and point for you. That's good. The West Wing is really the original DC insider show. It was a drama that was created by Aaron Sorkin that debuted in September of 1999. It is centered around the senior staff

of a fictional president played by Martin Sheen. And Martin Sheen originally, his character, President Bartlett wasn't even gonna be a big part of the show. It was really just gonna be about the staffers, but Martin Sheen showed up and was so good and incredible that that character became a bigger and bigger part of the show is really just going to be about the staffers. But Martin Sheen showed up and was so good and incredible that that character became a bigger and bigger part of the series. But still, the focus is really about what happens behind the scenes of what

goes on in DC and what goes on in the White House. All right, we're done with the pleasantries. Let's get into the debate with opening arguments. Amanatu, let's start with you. Listen, I am a woman of few words, so I'm just going to tell you this. If you like House of Cards for that like ruthless ladder climbing that they do, this is the better version of that. If you like all the insane twists and turns and conspiracy theories of scandal, this is a better version of that. This show, Veep, is the anti-West Wing, and it is glorious.

Also, I imagine that because of everything in the news, I don't know if people have heard, but our president stepped aside to let their vice president run for the top of the ticket. Veep is in the conversation again. So I will not give a lot of spoilers because I actually believe that a lot of people are watching the show for the first time. It was not a very popular show. It's one of those shows that gets written about a lot, but if you look at the numbers

of how many people have seen it, it's... Those two things don't coincide. Welcome to liberal elite media complex. But, so a lot of people are watching for the first time. And I rewatched a lot of episodes recently, and I do think that one of the things that makes this show even more relevant than ever is just how mean it is. Because we have so much stuff in our culture that says that it's satire,

and I'm like, the things that are passing for satire today, it's not working for me. This show, like, Veep is not preachy, it's not pedantic at all, it pulls none of its punches, and it also has a lot of pathos, weirdly, but it is consistently very cruel. And because of that consistency, I think it has aged better than any of those

like cringe shows like Parks and Recreation or the West Wing, any of these shows that just reek of smug, self-satisfied, liberal wish fulfillment. So that's my case for Veep. Wow, you really embodied the show while making that argument. Rishi, your turn. What makes West Wing a better show than Veep?

I'd first like to respond to my opponent here by agreeing with her. As the gentle lady points out, the cruelty is the point. And I think that is actually a detriment to the show, especially as the show goes on. If you look at Veep across all seven seasons, its entire administration,

I think that it actually starts to suffer as the show goes on, where the cruelty originally is laced with incredible sharpness and biting humor, and it feels like satire. And as the show moves later and later in the seasons, it starts to really just be an engine for cruelty without the kind of cleverness that it had originally. My enjoyment of the series started really slackening as the show went on. I found it a little bit unpalatable towards the end because it was just cruelty without the cleverness.

I found myself laughing less and less and just sort of watching these people be mean to each other. And it felt like too dark-hearted, even for my satirical appetite. The West Wing, while not a… Before I let you go on that way, Abidatsu, did you want to respond directly to that? I just think that it's interesting that my opponent has chosen to attack me instead of defending his policies and his choices. It's a very cheap tactic.

You know, like it's not lost on me that this is all rhetoric. Yeah, like let's hear about the West Wing, like what you love about it, because right now I don't know, I don't know. What I love about it, because right now, I don't know, I don't know. What I love about The West Wing is all of the different feelings that it delivered. It was for sure a fantasy. I don't think that anybody involved with the show

or watching the show thought too much that this was a realistic depiction of the world of politics. I think it gets dinged for that sometimes unfairly, but really it's a fantasy and it's entertainment. It was a very funny show despite being put in the category of drama, and it gave great drama as well. And it was also inspirational, and it featured some of the best dialogue that has ever been on TV ever. It also features some of the greatest acting that's ever been on TV ever.

The cast is unbelievable, and the ensemble as an ensemble, unbelievable. 95 Emmy nominations, 26 Emmy wins. I mean, those are numbers that speak for themselves, but I'm also here to speak for them. Rishi, that's a great opening argument. I just want to point out, do you think that any of the fact that it has more Emmy nominations, I might be giving ammunition to Aminatu, has to do with the fact that it had a lot more episodes than Veep did? And Veep was a less watched show in some cases. Well, I think the fact that the West Wing was more watched can't really be held against

it. I'm sorry, Aminatu. The fact that it was one of the most popular shows when it aired, that it had millions and millions of viewers only adds ammunition and ammunition to my argument. Oh my God. Again, because I am speaking for the people. A show having a lot of awards does not make it a good show.

It just means that it has completed a lot of very good awards campaigns. That concludes round number one. It's time for a quick break and we'll come back with the bigger round. Hi, I'm Emily Deschanel. And I'm Carla Gallo, and we're here to bring you Boneheads. The official Bones rewatch podcast. 16 years ago, we met on the set of the TV show Bones and have been friends ever since. I played Dr. Temperance Brennan. And I played Daisy Wick.

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Well, let's dig into the characterization because I think that's a big part of both of these shows. On one side, we have Jed Bartlett. On the other side, we have Selena Meyer. When we talk about dynamic characters between the two of them, they really are the lightning rod for a lot of what's going on around them. So Rishi, we'll start with you. Jed Bartlett versus Selena Meyer.

Why are we siding with Jed Bartlett versus Selina Meyer. Why are we siding with Jed Bartlett? Well, certainly neither are perfect, but. I'm over, sorry I'm laughing. It is really funny. But it is sort of like, why are we siding with a hero over a villain? How dare you? While I love the character of Selena Meyer, she is certainly a villain.

I think President Bartlett is a flawed hero, but for sure a hero who is trying to reach for, to quote the West Wing, his better angels and trying to get the most from the people around him. There's another part of the West Wing where they talk about how they say, if you're a dumb person, surround yourself

with people who are smarter than you. And if you're a smart person, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. And that's something they say in the show, but I think it's also the sort of plot driving force for the show as well. You see President Bartlett constantly arguing in the Oval Office meaningfully, forcefully, with both his own advisors and outside voices

trying to figure out what the right answer is. And even though they don't always get to the right answer, I appreciate that they try. Imanatsu, I know you have a response. Give me Selina Meyer versus Jed Bartlett in favor of Selina Meyer. It is a false equivalency to pit a VP against a president. Like, Celia Meyer is, like, she's the vice president in most of the universe of her show. No, she gets to be president in season three.

No, absolutely, absolutely. But she starts off as somebody who is not president. And I do think that, like, that introduction is, like, important because, you know, she's... Here's the deal. As a political scientist, I know this, the VP pick doesn't matter. I could be vice president of the United States. It's an understudy job where if the president is smart, they kind of give you bad jobs because they don't want you to steal their job. That know, like that's kind of how it works. But in terms of like, who would the people who would the people vote for and stuff?

I'm like in the world of today, like Selena Meyer is president over Jed Bartlett, because if your point is that Americans make great choices, that's not true. Like, that's my that's what that's why I'm arguing like in favor of Veep. I was like this show, it shows you what it is. It's like people vote against their own self-interest all the time. Every four years in Congress specifically, Americans tell you for sure that they

want exactly the opposite of what they ordered last time. And I'm like, this is the world that we're living in, where people don't make good decisions. The president is not, you know, like a moral test for like who we are. These are jobs that we all have to participate in. And also like citizenship is more than just like who is president and who is VP, you know? And so, yeah, so all of that to say that I think that it's a false equivalency to pit these two

Up against president. I think it depends what year it depends what the economy is doing. It depends What the deal is but one of them you meet him when he's president and you meet the other one when she's VP and it like That matters to you. So we've talked a lot about kind of the idealism versus reality But let's get into the writing of both of these individual shows. We have Aaron Sorkin on one side and we have Armando Iannucci on the other side, and both of them have very different writing styles. But Rishi, we'll start with you.

Speak to the strengths of Aaron Sorkin versus Armando Iannucci, who I know you're a fan of. Oh, yeah, please don't make me do this. Oh, I'm going to make you do it. These are, these are, this is, you really, this is, this is when it really comes into a Sophie's Choice situation for me. I, I, I love Armando Iannucci's writing so much, and his team, because I love the way that both of these writers

write, you know, Iannucci for the thick of it, and for in the loop Ian Uchie for The Thick of It and for In the Loop, and I imagine for Veep as well, really worked with a group of people. I mean, there's a guy on In the Loop and The Thick of It whose credit is swearing consultant. And the thick of it, whose credit is swearing consultant, because that show makes, turns the F word into just an incredible paintbrush. It's really, really, please don't make me do this. But I will say there are, I can certainly talk about the writing in the West wing.

Um, while I'm just going to sidestep saying anything bad about, uh, about VEEP, um, cause I can't. That's an opening for you. I'm an auto. The West wing writing is it's like listening to music. is it's like listening to music. The different instruments each have their own parts and there's a rhythm and it's incredible. Aaron Sorkin comes from a playwriting background.

Before it was a movie, A Few Good Men was a play that was on Broadway that he had written. He knows how to tell story entirely from dialogue. What makes the West Wing so great, I think, is the fact that he was paired with a great director in Tommy Schlamme, and the two of them had their own strengths. But you could just listen to the West Wing.

You could get everything you need from what's happening in the show, all of the moments of dramatic tension, and just an incredible amount of storytelling. If they were just radio plays, the dialogue is that good. I'll point to a scene in the end of season two where the president, it's kind of an insane thing to say, but the president, one of the president's best moments

of dialogue is when he is in conversation with God. He is in the National Cathedral and he is a devout Catholic. And sorry for the spoilers here, but his long-term executive secretary has been killed in a car accident. And it's at the end of the second season and he's been beset by all of these challenges and he doesn't know whether or not

he's going to run for president again, whether he should just give in to all the hardship. And he has this angry tirade at God. He even goes into Latin while speaking to God. He even goes into Latin while speaking to God. And it's just an incredible performance, but it's all fueled by the writing of Aaron Sorkin, which again, was nominated for so many Emmys over the years. Pete Barron, any Latin, I'm not to speak to the strengths of Armando Iannucci versus those of Aaron Sorkin. I mean, two incredible writers, you know, for like two very different reasons.

Like, I, you know, like again, because I'm the honest candidate, I can say when the truth is the truth. Like, I agree with everything my opponent has said about these writing styles. I think that, again, you know, like something that is interesting is, because I do agree, like, Aaron Sorkin is, like, it's very, like, theatrical, right? Like, when you're watching it, like, even the shots that they use, the walk and talk, which is such an innovation of his, which, PS, they do and have mastered on Veep. It always kills me when they do the walk and talk on Veep, because I'm like, we see the original inspo for this.

But it's deployed for a satire as opposed to, let me give you soaring feelings about the White House press correspondence dinner or whatever. Yeah, it's like they're just different writers. I think that what I really appreciate about Iannucci's writing is how, um, grounded in reality it is. I think that, um, writing for real people, how real people talk, you know, and it doesn't feel like stilted or stunted or like there's some sort of like, you know, overly eloquent

like thespian dummy is, is, that's its own strength. Like, especially in comedy, I think that people always think that like comedy is easier to write than drama. And I'm like, they're like hard for for different reasons. They're different. But I do think that like writing dialogue and comedy and having just these like, brutal short pithy like one liners is, you know, like, brutal, short, pithy, like, one-liners is, you know, like, it's, I can think... There's, like, a lot of, like, monologues in, um... in West Wing that I remember where I'm like, oh, wow, like, I can't, like, say them, but I was like, oh, I remember this moment where CJ says this or that or whatever.

With Veep, I can tell you the line, you know? Like, I'm like, there's, like, a hundred of them that just, like, come to mind where I was like, wow, like this is, this is effective. It's good. It is punchy. And, you know, and so much of that also, I think it's that, you know, it's that he's Scottish. Like they just come from like a different tradition of writing.

I think that it's different like observational powers. I think they just do satire better on the other side of the Atlantic that we do here because we have too much reverence for our institutions and for people in power. But yeah, it's a tough question because they're both such good writers. But again, it's like, what are you in the mood for? Are you in the mood for theater? Go to Broadway. Are you in the mood for television?

And are you in the mood for today TV, are you in the mood for like today TV, like how people talk? Watch VEEP. I will say the world of politics isn't one where we hear people talking like normal people. You know, stump speeches, debates, national conventions. These aren't contexts in which we, we hear people, um, having conversational dialogue. Um, as much as, you know, George W. Bush won basically on the, his, uh,

he seems like a guy I want to have a beer with quality. Um, I think that it is theater. And so if we're going to have theater, let's have theater where we get to hear incredible soaring dialogue, things that we wish we could actually hear out of the mouths of the politicians that we do see on the convention stages. It's clear that both of you have a lot of respect for your opponent's show, especially in terms of the writing.

I like that. That marks the end of round number two. After the break, it's time for Closing Arguments. Are you ready to dive into the ultimate pop culture showdown? Join me for Pop Culture Debate Club. I'm your host, Ronald Young Jr. Each week our panel of trendsetters, critics, and fan favorites clash over the latest in movies, music, TV, and more.

Who's right and who's just plain wrong? That's for me to decide. Check out Pop Culture Debate Club every Thursday wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Produced by Lemonada and the BBC. What's up, everybody? I'm very excited to tell you about something we've been cooking up over here. All right. It's called Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe. It's all about celebrating the brilliance and artistry of some of the most iconic black women in entertainment. I'm honored to have been in conversation with powerhouses such as Sheryl Lee Ralph, Jennifer Lewis,

Debbie Allen, and more. Now in these conversations, we discuss process, their journey, and how they became the incredible women they are today. Legacy Talk from Hillman Grad and Luminato Media is out November 12th on all platforms. ["Legacy Talk"] Okay, we're almost out of time. I'm going to give each of you 30 seconds to state your closing argument.

It's a loose 30 seconds. We'll start with you, Amanatu. State your final case for Veep. You know, my opponent is going to come here and give you a three-minute monologue. Like I just, I just know it. It's gonna be soothing. It's gonna be yummy radio voice. You know, just... You know, like, the vibes are immaculate.

Like, I cannot lie. The vibes are immaculate. Like, he is a cool dude. But I really want you to listen to what he's saying, because it'll make no sense. Also, since he opened up previously that so much of, you know, like these shows about politics or theater, I will just say these two things. If we're going to discuss theater, on an installment of Pod Save America, a podcast that is made up of former Obama insiders.

They did an interview with the last Veep showrunner, David Mandel, and they were talking about what makes the show tick. And one of the hosts of the show who worked in the administration previously said this, and I quote, the funny thing about Veep is that we people who worked in the White House always get asked, okay, what's the most real? Is it House of Cards? Is it West Wing? And the answer is it's Veep because you guys nail the fragility of the egos and the

like day-to-day idiocy of decision-making. One point. The second point is that on the day before Joe Biden stepped down, Aaron Sorkin wrote this op-ed where he made, exactly. Are my hearing oh no from the other side of the microphone? That's right. Hoist by your own petard. Aaron Sorkin writes this op-ed.

This is outside of the scope. It is very inside of the scope because you opened up the theater of it all and I was like, here's, yeah, thank you. No objections recorded. Where he writes this like insane op-ed about how Mitt Romney should run for, like it was the most shark jumpy thing

that could have like happened in that moment. I'm like, that tells you everything you need to know about that television show. It's, he like wanted to do the shark jump in real life. Sir, stay in your lane, like relax. These are, this is not what we're talking about. And I will concede that West Wing is a delightful show, actually.

It is full of hope. It has big heart, incredible, like truly incredible performances. I cannot say that it's not a good show. What I can tell you is that Veep is a more realistic show. It is more biting. It is more fitting for the times that we live in. It also is a better reminder than the work of being a citizen is not trusting that any of these people know what they're doing, no matter how well intentioned they are. Also Julia Louis-Dreyfus, what can I say?

First of all, what a smoke show, what an incredible actor, what an incredible person. And the way I think that she has really handled. I'm about to hear you really stretching the limits of that 30 seconds. I know, I know, I know, and I said that he would. Yeah, and I just think that she lives in the real world of being honest about the show that she was in, again, as opposed to My Opponent Show,

where they still are selling you this fantasy of, this is what politics are, and that's time. Thank you. It was like, this is what politics are. And that's time. Thank you. It was time, time six. Okay. Rishi, you have as much time as I'm about to take. This is your final case. Okay.

Veep is a great show. I love Veep. I will watch it over and over again. But if you could only choose one, I would say choose the West Wing because the West Wing is not a show that should be judged on whether or not it is a realistic depiction of the political reality of America or the world.

But what do you want from a show? How do you want to feel in your life? For me, I wanna feel entertained, I wanna laugh, I wanna feel the pathos of drama, and I do wanna feel inspired. I want to feel like I can be a better version of myself. I want to feel like the world has the possibility of becoming a better version of itself as well.

I know that that's not gonna be easy. And I don't think the West Wing depicts it as something that's gonna be easy. It is difficult. And it doesn't shy away from that difficulty. But if you're up for that challenge, maybe there is something a little bit better, a little bit brighter on the other side.

I would love to watch a show that gives me that feeling over and over again, which is why I do. Not only is it why I watch the show over and over again, it's part of the reason why I made a podcast. I spent four years of my life dedicated to talking about that show, because that's a feeling that I can get behind.

Okay, the time has come for me to make my ruling over which one of these shows is better. And before I do that, I have to start with a confession. And the confession is the whole purpose of the debate is to come to a majority ruling, meaning two to one. There's one on each side. I'm being the one that is pushing us up into the majority. And when we started this, it was two to one on Veep's side. I thought there's no way in the world that that West Wing could be

proven to be a better show in this case. However, the debate kind of slid into something that I actually knew that I could get behind a bit, and the problem is, as soon as Rishi pointed out the issue that he had with Veep in the beginning, I realized it was the same issue I had with Veep, which is that towards the end, it gets to this place of kind of unmitigated cruelty in a way that just makes my skin crawl in some cases

where there's things that are being played for jokes, but the jokes are being stated with such a straight face where I'm just like, the ridiculousness of that is very funny. And the first time I probably saw it, I would have laughed. But upon my second or third rewatch, it doesn't feel as good. I will say there is an idealistic subplot of Richard Splett, which I'm not sure you didn't mention, and I wish you had, because I think that would have pushed me back over to your side. But unfortunately, because I'm realizing this is an argument of, it became an argument of reality versus idealism.

I realized that when I watch TV, I really want idealism. And even though I think that Veep is probably a better show, I would prefer after this conversation to watch the West wing. And that probably has a lot to do with the election in the state that we're in, which you pointed out well in the beginning as well, Amanatu. So unfortunately, I have to give this one to Rishi for defending the West Wing. I'm as surprised as all of you are. I did not expect to be making this ruling. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Nobody believes black women. Nobody follows choices. I'm pulling that card now. I am not surprised.

But you know what? It's okay. In 10 years, when the show's still going, Ronald, and you're having this debate again, and you are apologizing to me for not seeing the brilliant choice of a Veep, here's the deal. These are such good shows and I'm gonna confess something now that you've made your ruling because obviously I'm like I love both of these shows. I'm having the kind of day that I'm gonna rewatch Two Cathedrals, one of the best West Wing episodes ever. So congratulations to my opponent. Thank you. It's an honor to be in this debate with you. I mean, not to you are my opponent, but again, in a very West Wing kind of way, you are not

my enemy. Wow. That's that's good. That's that's why they win elections, ladies and gentlemen. That's why. Thank you both so much for being here today. This has been a lot of fun. You've made my inaugural episode of Pop Culture Debate Club a lot easier to be on.

Thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for having me. I know. Thanks for having me and good luck moving forward. You're the best host ever. Look at that. Thank you. Congratulations, Ronald.

Thank you. Thanks again to Rishi Kesh Herwe and Amanatu So for joining me today. Check out more from Amanatu at her sub stack, amanatu.substack.com. And we're so excited to tell you that Rishi's podcast, The West Wing Weekly is back. Instead of breaking down an episode of The West Wing, you can hear him and his co-host Joshua Molina talk about different political films, including Armando Iannucci's In the Loop, which Rishi talked about in today's episode. You can find that at Patreon.com slash The West Wing Weekly.

And there's more PCDC with Luminata Premium. Subscribers get access to exclusive bonus content like Nicky and Will, the guests from the Love Island US vs UK episode, talking about what type of person they'd look for if they went on the show. Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Luminata and the BBC. It's produced by Jamila Zahra Williams, Chrissy Pease, Donnie Matias, and me, Ronald Young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neal is VP of New Content. Our Senior Vice President of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson.

Commissioning Editor for the BBC is Rhianne Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Whittles-Wax and Jessica Cordova-Kramer. Follow Pop Culture Debate Club wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. Gloria Riviera here, and we are back for another season of No One Is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's child care crisis. This season, we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through

the lens of childcare, poverty, mental health, housing, climate change, and the public school system. By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that childcare is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season four of No One is Coming to Save Us is out now wherever you get your podcasts. Are you in bed by 10? Can you feel your hormones raging more than ever? Do you wake up every day wondering, is this it?

Guess what? You're not alone. Welcome to My Soul Called Midlife, a weekly podcast hosted by me, Reshma Sajjani. On this show, we're going to expose the con we've been sold about middle age, figure out what the fuck we want from our lives, and how to get there. We'll have help from guests like Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson, and Alana Glazer.

You can listen to My Soul-Called Midlife ad-free on Amazon Music.