Throughline - Bonus: Soul Train

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

When Soul Train was first nationally syndicated in October 1971, there was nothing else like it on TV. It was the iconic Black music and dance show, a party every weekend that anyone could join from their living room. Our friends at It's Been A Minute with Sam Sanders break down the lasting influence of Soul Train on the culture and ask why there's never been a show like it since.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. Hey, ThruLine listeners, it's Run here. Fun fact, NPR first started broadcasting 50 years ago, in 1971. That's also when Soul Train was first nationally broadcast, 50 years ago this month. This influential show brought Black music, dance, fashion, and performance into viewers' homes every weekend. There was nothing like it on TV. And all these years later, there's been nothing like it since. So today's episode is all about the impact of Soul Train on our culture and why it mattered.

It comes from our friends over at NPR's podcast, It's Been a Minute with Sam Sanders. Here's Sam. Erica Blount-Denoir remembers getting ready for a party every Saturday. As an audience member in your own house, you felt like you were part of this whole, you know, party so much that my sister and I would actually get dressed up when we watched the show. We also had a crush on several of the artists. So, you know, as a kid, you sort of think, can they see us? I don't know. It was a party that I remember going to some Saturdays as well when I was a kid. Perhaps you do, too.

The party host was this really cool guy named Don. He wore a big, perfect afro and impeccably tailored, brightly colored suits. Hey, Don. Welcome aboard. I can guarantee you'll enjoy the ride, especially if you like your soul ice cold, because none other than the Iceman himself is going to be looking you right dead in your eyes after this very important message. You can watch this party every weekend from the comfort of your own home. Television's longest-running music program

and the hipthest trip in America. I'm talking about Soul Train, the iconic black song and dance show, a show that featured performances from the likes of Marvin Gaye and Aretha Franklin. A show that launched the career of a dancer turned actress named Rosie Perez.

We asked you all about Soul Train if you recalled watching in the 70s or 80s or even the 90s. We would drop whatever we were doing gather in the family den to watch Soul Train. Saturdays were a staple in my house watching Soul Train. I watched it with my sisters in the 70s, digging the Soul Train line, Soul Train scramble

board, trying to figure it out before they did on television, learning the new dances with my sisters. To be able to see others that looked like us was truly a beautiful experience. Watching Soul Train from home every week, it felt like a cross between a family reunion and a neighborhood block party, but also a series of really slick music videos with the best dance moves. And there was nothing like it on TV. When Soul Train began, there were still mostly white shows with white hosts who had black and brown performers on sometimes. Thank you. Welcome aboard a Saturday afternoon American bandstand with a very special salute today. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Stevie Wonder.

Don Cornelius and Soul Train changed that. Soul Train was made by black people. It featured black dancers and black music and black performers. And it showcased black culture for anyone who wanted to watch. And this is hard to overstate. Soul Train was just so black. Bowlegged Lou. Yeah, Bowlegged Lou.

That's my stage name. Performed on Soul Train seven times. And he remembers even the commercials for Soul Train being incredibly black. That was the first time I saw black commercials. Commercials with mostly black people. The Afro-shin commercials, they had with mostly black people. The Afro Sheen commercials, they had the Afro pics. And the end of the Afro pics

was a black fist. Remember that? They weren't playing around. I'm Sam Sanders and you are listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR. In this episode, we're going to take a look back at Soul Train and Don Cornelius and what he and that show mean now.

We'll break down how the show came together and how it fell apart. And we'll ask a question I've been asking myself ever since Soul Train went off the air. Why has there never been another show like it since? 50 years after it was first broadcast nationally. Hanif Abdurraqib is going to be our Soul Train tour guide this episode. You may recall him from a previous appearance on this show when he talked about his book of essays, A Little Devil in America. In that book, Hanif wrote about the significance and importance of Soul Train and what it meant for him watching it growing up. Hanif began by telling me how Soul Train started, locally in Chicago.

Don Cornelius began as a journalist, you know. He was kind of had an eye towards the streets, and so therefore he had a distinct understanding of the needs of black folks. And in its origins, in kind of the mid-60s, the roots of Soul Train can maybe be traced to the program Red Hot and Blues. And what was that show? Yeah, I mean, Red Hot and Blues was, you know, it's kind of the same format of Soul Train, where it was a predominantly Black audience, the in-studio dancers, and it was simplistic in a way that Soul Train was simplistic. Like, Soul Train is both miraculous, but also kind of simple. It's just music playing and Black people dancing. And Red Hot and Blues was kind of the baseline for that. And at that time, Don Cornelius was like a newsreader.

Some may feel that we don't need any leader at all. And if that's your feeling, we'd like to hear about that also. Everyone knows his voice was... He had that voice, yeah. Yeah, like just an immensely beautiful instrument. And so he was a newsreader and a DJ and a sports reporter. But he was also kind of like emceeing this series of touring shows featuring local Chicago talent. They're called like record hops.

They'd be in high school gyms. And the caravan of shows began to take on the name The Soul Train. Huh. And that was before it got any kind of television deal. It was kind of just like this, not entirely, I don't want to say underground, because I think that does it a disservice. But it was just kind of like, come one, come all. We're packing this high school gym.

And we're going to listen to songs by these local performers. You know, I think the big break was that Soul Train got a sponsorship deal with Sears. Wow. Talk about back in the day. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, with Sears and Roblox. Okay. They were out of Chicago.

So Sears was like, you know, we'll give you what you need. So, okay. So we've got Don Cornelius doing these basically like local dances, calling it Soul Train, and then Sear steps in with some money. How does that change it and I guess elevate it? Well, it helped to get a TV deal. It was a live show. Okay. Okay.

First started on weekday afternoons. And if you can find any of the old footage from those weekday afternoon runs, it's kind of fascinating to think about where Soul Train went. I mean, these were in its earliest days was so low budget. It was black and white, super grainy. The very first episode had the shylights on it,

which is really wonderful. I mean, Don Cornelius was always up for it. He always had the same gravitas. And so there's a level of nervousness that you can sense just because it's the first show and there's a lot writing on it and whatever, whatever. But he's locked in. I mean, he's very much the Don Cornelius he always was. So I like to think about Soul Train in kind of like a small series of eras. And the next era is the syndication era, which was bought to life by Johnson Products. The thing I always talk about, so when I was working on the book, I got a hard drive of every Soul Train episode from like 71 to the mid-late 80s.

And the thing about watching Soul Train reruns on WGN when I was growing up is that you would watch them and then a commercial would come. Like you would be in the world of Soul Train in 1982 or whatever. So it was the old ads. Right. But then a commercial would come on WGN, and it would be like a present-day commercial. And so you're snapped back into the reality of the living world you're in. But when I got the hard drive of all these episodes, it was just like the run of the episodes, ads and everything. And so that's why you got all those brilliant, sometimes funny, sometimes like high level absurd Johnson ads, like the notorious Frederick Douglass Afrosheen ad. Are you going to go out into the world with your hair looking like that?

Well, Mr. Douglass, you know, times have changed. We wear the natural now. You call that a natural? That's a mess. I remember that one. It's the natural now. You call that a natural? That's a mess. I remember that one. It's just so incredible, you know, but you get these kind of things because Johnson Products were, that was the brand that kind of catapulted them into syndication. And that's what got them, that's what took them national. Coming up, who exactly was Don Cornelius? Stay with us. from wise the app for doing things in other currencies send spend or receive money internationally and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees

download the wise app today or visit wise.com t's and c's apply all right welcome back i'm going to take some time now to talk about don cornelius because without don cornelius there really is no Soul Train. Don was the host who made you feel like you were a part of the show, watching from home. Don was the one you wanted to dress like. I mean, the suits. Google it, I'm telling you. Don had the best afro in all the land.

And it seemed that only Don could interact with musical guests and dancers and the audience with this ease and coolness that seemed effortless yet perfect. You know, but as much as Don really seems tied to Soul Train and dance and music, he had a bunch of jobs before that show. He was in the Marine Corps, he worked as an insurance and car salesman. And then after all that, he took a broadcast course and became a DJ and a sports anchor in Chicago. And all of those jobs and experiences would influence what Soul Train came to be. But even as he was doing those other things, Don was mapping out what would eventually become the show we all know him for now. Soul Train was something that Don Cornelius envisioned from

the very start. I mean, from the middle of the 60s we all know him for now. Soul Train was something that Don Cornelius envisioned from the very start. I mean, from the middle of the 60s, you know? Don began Soul Train locally in Chicago in August 1970. He was just 33 years old, and he used his own money, $400, on the pilot. With that small investment, a few weeks after its premiere, Soul Train became the number one show in the city among black audiences. We found a need in the early 70s in our culture, the African-American culture, that African-Americans could directly and easily relate to. And we served it.

That is Don in an interview with CNN in 1995. So after Soul Train takes off locally, Don wants to convince TV stations around the country to air Soul Train. It sounds like a reasonable ask, but playing a show that black all over the country back then, it would be a big deal in the still very white TV world of the 70s. Here's Don from CNN again. There were a lot of stations that did not feel justified in clearing a program like Soul Train, which targeted minorities. And many of those who did clear it did not want to clear it in a quote-unquote good time period. But Don made it happen.

And the first nationally syndicated episode of Soul Train aired in October 1971. By the end of its first year, Soul Train was in many markets nationwide. And Don became one of the first black people to create their own national TV franchise in the U.S. ever. As it was approaching syndication, for it to be on this precipice of something maybe not beyond his wildest dreams, but certainly probably beyond what his initial imagination was, that the temptation is, well, I got to make this as big as possible. But the prudent thing is what he did, which is to say, how can I keep this mine? Ownership. That was always important to Don. Anyone who creates things maybe knows and understands, you just can't trust people. I mean, specifically like black folks or folks at the margins who are creating with their

people in mind, can't trust people. He's right. Dick Clark, of all people, tried to make a copycat Soul Train in 1973. He called his show Soul Unlimited. Unsurprisingly, this show did not last. But Soul Train did. And it grew and people liked it a lot. Here's Hanif again. It was received very well in I think some markets. I feel like when it first hit syndication, if I recall correctly, they tried to target like a lot of different markets, but the stations that picked it up were like maybe seven or eight and there were places like Atlanta and Birmingham and Detroit. And of course, LA and Philly, like places where black folks were. I think places that did not pick up on

the syndication at first very quickly realized there are markets where there is a real hunger for a show like Soul Train. People really wanted to see it. Did the stations that began to take Soul Train, did they realize over time that like also white people would watch this too? Yeah, I mean, white people were watching Soul Train. Not a lot of white guests were on Soul Train. Although the video of Elton John in that crushed green velvet suit. Oh, my God.

It's amazing. And he seems so at home. She's got electric boots. I'm OSU. You know I read it in a magazine Oh Benny and the Jets You know, there's select white folks around Soul Train. Bowie, I believe, and a few others.

But yes, Soul Train was by black people for black people. But it's almost a myth to suggest that there was no white audience for the show. Yeah, yeah. You know, what I find really interesting about the initial success in the early years of syndication of Soul Train was what it said about blackness and whiteness and what white people would be willing to consume and testing this theory that actually white people

and black people are down to watch black folks dance. There's an NPR essay that's kind of an obituary for Don Cornelius. And the author wrote, Don Cornelius proved a truism about America and race that so few people even today understand. Black culture expressed in undiluted form and unapologetically will by virtue become accepted by the American mainstream. And reading that this morning for this interview and thinking about Don Cornelius, it was brave but also a no-brainer. People want to watch pretty Black people dance to good music.

Who wouldn't want to watch that? How ahead of his time was he for understanding that back when he did? I think very, but also it's that thing i go back to about soul train being both simple but not you know there are a lot of opportunities to complicate the baseline of soul train there's a lot of opportunities to kind of change the baseline formula and of course the formula was like tweaked as time went on, but not much. And there's a kind of a joyful simplicity to it. It's easy to say that something is by the people for the people as a

pretense or as some kind of vague, but overarching idea. But Soul Train, you know what is miraculous to me? It's not just the dancing, but in the kind of earlier stages, the interviews. Like after an artist would perform, they would just sit down on the stage sometimes and just talk to the crowd. There's that episode of Marvin Gaye just like sitting on the stage in conversation with audience members. Hi, my name is Dwayne and I'd like to

know what are some of your hobbies, you know, like besides singing, because I know you like to sing and you know, what else do you like to do besides singing some of your hobbies, you know, like besides saying because I know you like to sing and you know What else do you like to do besides singing at your spare time? well, I am I'm I'm I'm kind of sensual, you know, and I enjoy I like fooling around. You know, eye to eye.

This is kind of, it seemed like Don Cornelius understood that there's a simplicity to access. To saying, you know, outside of this room, this person is one of the biggest musicians on the planet, but inside of this room, they're just a community member. Well, yeah. And there was no pretense. They're not trying not trying to over explain for a potential white audience they're not trying to slap a big heavy message on top of the fun and dancing say for the commercials which sometimes are doing message but like it was just kind of here it is enjoy it and i feel like when I think about what I see today, and this happens with all kinds of big R representation, it's like you can't just have a show where there's gay people or trans people or black people or people of color. It has to have a message, capital M, laid on top of it. And when you watch the old and early Soul Train, he was not concerned with that.

He was letting these folks have fun. Right. I mean, I grew up in an era of really golden era black sitcoms, I think. I do think what happened in the middle of that era for me was a shifting desire for capital M message, right? And so, you know, Fresh Prince got a little more serious and we get the Will episode with the gun

and Carlton and that kind of thing. Carlton, are kind of thing. Carlton, are you out of your mind, man? You're walking around carrying a gun? What do you think you're going to do with that? It's for protection. Living Single got a little bit more. All these series that I love got a little more serious here and there.

None of that bothers me. Yeah. And I actually think that it was layered and complex in a way that I needed at the time. But Soul Train wasn't trying, this was just a show where you watch people dance. So often I hear people say, well, where can I go to get a break from the noise of the world? I don't often need that. I am someone who perhaps my cynicism wins out, but I never want the noise of the world too far away from me lest I become emotionally complacent. But Soul Train was a place where I felt I could always really do that, even in the reruns, because it wasn't asking much of me other than, isn't this beautiful? This is, in a way, was evangelizing for a very simple, joyful aesthetic. I'm not asking much of anyone, but hey, look at this thing. Isn't this miraculous?

In a minute, how Soul Train became an empire, and a lot more than just a TV show. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, offering over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand-selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. As Soul Train grew and succeeded, Don Cornelius did more with the Soul Train brand.

He made a Soul Train nightclub. There was a Soul Train dance studio. He even made the Soul Train Awards. The Soul Train Awards were really revered and respected. Soul Train. There you go. It's all about love and celebration of our culture tonight. Some black folks were like, well, we don't care that much about the Grammys.

Like, you got to win one of these. And Don Cornelius made a full-on record label, Soul Train Records, which launched a few big stars. Jodi Watley was in the Soul Train line as a Soul Train dancer. That's how her and Jeffrey Daniel kind of started, and then Shalamar became a thing. Don Cornelius and Soul Train Records helped launch the Grammy Award-winning soul group, Shalamar. By the time Jody Watley was like a big solo artist, there were women in the line dressed like Jody Watley. That's a fascinating phenomenon of the Soul Train line is that you have folks who began as Soul Train dancers

and then became music stars and then could watch themselves be mimicked in the Soul Train dancers and then became music stars and then could watch themselves be mimicked in the Soul Train line. Other dancers on the show also went on to have long careers. Don Cornelius had a real immense eye for talent. That's something that I hope doesn't get overlooked. And in my opinion, the part of the Soul Train empire that has the biggest impact to this day has to be the Soul Train line. It is personally my favorite way to dance. So in your essay in the book about Soul Train,

you talk about the origin story of the Soul Train line. And a lot of, well, one, when I began working on this episode with the team, I had never put together stupidly that of course the Soul Train line comes from Soul Train. It's like one of those things, stupidly, that of course the Soul Train line comes from Soul Train. It's like one of those things, perhaps the biggest legacy of this show. I never put two and two. But you also wrote about how the Soul Train line itself kind of came from this other earlier dance that was a much more staid, The Stroll. The Stroll, yeah. Can you tell our listeners briefly what Don Cornelius saw in The Stroll, what that was, and how he made it the Soul Train line that we still know and love? Have you watched any videos of The Stroll?

No, but paint a picture for me. The Stroll was kind of a slow dance song in a dance that was really popularized in the late 50s. It was eventually kind of locked in with the Diamonds hit song called The Stroll. It is pretty dry. You know, its bones are similar to the Soul Train line. There are two lines of dancers, men on one side, women on the other. They face each other. But it's often just like, at least in the videos that I saw, it's often just like two people rhythmically walking who don't really look like they want to be there.

But, you know don cornelius was very it was brilliant it was kind of like well there's got to be a better way to take the roots of this and make it into something pleasing and so he kind of you know borrowed the structure and uh made it into what we know is the soul train line but he did a few big things like he moved the people closer together. Yeah. He sped the music up. How did he tweak it to elevate it?

Well, a big thing is that he didn't tie it to a single song. Yeah. Like, that's an important thing, because the stroll, as we saw it, was mostly tied to a kind of slow, droney song. And once you remove that and say, well, people can dance to anything in this space. Then it actually puts pressure on the dancers because they don't know what's coming what does it say about don fernelius and what the show soul train itself came to symbolize that he was able to do that, turn this really stiff dance into an iconic part of popular culture in the Soul Train line.

I think the greatest strength of Don Cornelius is that he, and I don't know this, I have no authority on this, but he really managed this thing of kind of sacrificing his own desires if it meant that everyone else could have a good time i mean there's no better example of that than the moment with mary wilson in the soul train line where you know she really wanted to dance with him in the soul train line and he was so or he appeared uh some of this i think was him playing it up for effect but he appeared so uncomfortable with the idea of it you know because for him to dance in the Soul Train line was to break this mythology of cool.

But Mary Wilson really wanted to do it. Okay, Don, can I dance with you? Oh, yeah, you can dance with me. But not on television. Not on television, huh? Okay. Eventually gave in. You think I could come up that Soul Train line? What did he dance?

You know, his first trip down line, he goes through twice. First time he goes down, it's kind of just like a rhythmic, funky chicken-esque stroll. Weirdly, the second time down, inexplicably, attempts to pull off this split. It is not the smoothest of splits but it's kind of joyful right it's like okay it's this moment that when i watch it and i watch this clip a lot it's this moment where i'm like don quernelius

is just like everyone else i had a moment where he was like the cameras are on me it's time for me to show out and that's kind of endearing where it's like even the cameras are on me. It's time for me to show out. And that's kind of endearing, where it's like, even the host of the show could be seduced by the reality of learning that all eyes were on him in a moment. I appreciate Ms. Mary Wilson giving me the opportunity to dance on the show for the first time. Thanks, Mary. And so, over time, Soul Train stops to be as much of a cultural force.

But there's a big shift that happens with the show when it kind of, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, when it kind of can't really keep up with the direction that black music is moving in. Like, Don Cornelius didn't like hip hop, right? He did not love hip hop. No, he did not love hip-hop. Wow. That sounds like it could be a problem. Yeah. Was it?

Yeah. I mean, he didn't like hip-hop, and he wasn't really willing because Don Cornelius was, you know, someone who endured a lot of changing, shifting musical landscapes and decided to put his foot down and say, I can't do this one. But also, he stopped hosting in 93. And that really changed the show. There was no consistent host. I mean, Maestro Clark was a host for like a couple years, Maestro Clark in Ohioan. Thank you and welcome. We're glad you could be with us because the next hour is going to be totally off the hook. And, you know, Shamar Moore was pretty consistent.

At about now, we're going to step into the Soul Train Scramble Board. You and your little belly button ring on. Kim. Lord. Shamar Moore, LOL. Yeah. And then, you know, Dorian Gregory for a few years.

But one, just none of those people are Don Cornelius. That's just the thing. And none of them stayed long enough to entrench themselves as the show didn't take on their identity because they weren't there long enough. Another thing Don Cornelius had was the trust of artists.

And by extension, Soul Train had the trust of people. Ratings dropped and stations stopped carrying Soul Train. And Soul Train started to get bumped to late time slots. And that's tough. That's tough. I think about the landscape for dance and music on tv today and i don't see anything like soul train around you know people of color having joy and dancing kind of just to have joy and dance and i kind of say oh well

there's dancing on like tiktok or on vine peace. But with those platforms, it's a little different, especially when you have this dynamic of young creatives of color making the dances that then the shiny white people use and go on Jimmy Allen to dance. I'm talking about Addison Rae and others. And I'm guessing that's part of why there isn't a Soul Train today. But like, big picture, why do you think there isn't a show like Soul Train on the air right now, today? There's all kinds of TV. There's any number of streaming services and an enormous amount of things to watch.

And yet, I cannot watch anything new like Soul Train in this era of peak tv well do you think that would hold people's attention now for an hour or a half hour even it hold mine but i mean i guess i'm i'm old i don't know i mean i would watch i think it would hold i would maybe watch but i also think that people people require the desire to have a capital M message is perhaps higher now than it was for better or worse, sometimes immensely worse, as we know by the execution of some TV shows. And I don't know if Soul Train would survive the attention span of people who are looking for more. The real joy and miracle of Soul Train, I think, is that it was something people could watch,

could gather and watch every week and feel good about watching every week. And I just don't, I don't watch television like that anymore. I don't know many people who do watch television like that anymore. I recently learned like Grey's Anatomy is for some reason still on. And it's like, well, who's...

Don't even get me started. I am. I watched 12 seasons of Grey's during the pandemic. Just to pass the time. Are you watching every week though? Are you tuning into new episodes every week? No. Yeah, it's hard. I say all this to say that very truly, I would be thrilled to see something like Soul Train have a life in the TV landscape.

And in my head, I'm like, well, of course I would watch it. I would love to watch it. But I think, if I'm being honest with myself, I don't know how much I would watch it. Where do we most see the influence, the lasting influence of Soul Train around us in the world today? Well, in the way that Black people can break into dance in the midst of any gathering. I remember last summer, post-protest, I was talking to some other organizers and we were kind of just exhausted by the day and police had worn us down and all of these things. And someone, we had shut down a street. And so there was a space in the center of this street.

And someone just like pulled a large boom box out of their back pocket or something and set it down in the middle of the street and started playing music. And almost like the minute the music started, our conversation broke off, you know, and then people ran and formed a circle and began dancing. And I think that is in the spirit of Soul Train, you know, and then people ran and formed a circle and began dancing. And I think that is in the spirit of Soul Train, you know? The fact that like wherever enough black folks are gathered and a song presents itself, there's an unspoken understanding that people know what to do or at least know what their options are. I love that. And that feels really special. It's special and it's needed.

There's a certain community in the Soul Train line. And I like what you wrote about it in the book, the whole aesthetic of Soul Train, the show itself and Don Cornelius. It was about showing out and not showing off. There were these beautiful Black people dancing to gorgeous Black music, looking fly and doing amazing things on screen. But as you wrote, it wasn't just about them looking good for looking good's sake. It was an uplift for all of us. Seeing them be so happy and beautiful helped us feel happy and beautiful. Seeing them not think about anything but the joy of the song helped us get out of our heads and just think about the joy of these songs but you know they were showing out for all

of us and i hope that's the lasting legacy of this show that like there's a beauty in the spectacle of dance and of music and of black joy and black music that uplifts all of us that can partake yeah being fly is a communal project, right? Yeah. Like that's the thing is like, if you're in a loving enough and meaningful enough community space, being fly is an extension of,

in an active community. And that's the whole thing. Thanks again to author and poet Hanif Abdurraqib. Check out his book of essays, A Little Devil in America. It includes Hanif's writing on the impact of Soul Train and what the show meant to him growing up. Also, thanks to everyone you heard at the top of this episode. First, Erika Blount-Denoir. She's a professor and author of a book called Love, Peace, and Soul,

behind the scenes of America's Favorite Dance Show, Soul Train. And you also heard from listeners Peter Murray, Don Harris, and Willard B. Dyson Jr. And there was a dancer, singer, and performer, Bow-Legged Lou. And the NPR essay about Don Cornelius that I mentioned earlier in the episode, that's by author Dan Charnas. This episode was produced lovingly and painstakingly by Anjali Sastry and Liam McBain. Our fearless editor, as always, is Jordana Hochman. We had audio engineering help from Kweisi Lee and Alex Strowinskas.

And we got help with research and fact-checking from Julia Wohl. Listeners, this is the first episode in a three-part music series on the show. We'll be looking back at crossover pop in the music industry over three decades. Next week, Janet Jackson, her breakthrough album, Control,

and why she still, in my opinion, does not get enough respect. Alright, till next time, be good to yourselves. I'm Sam Sanders. Love, peace, and soul. Thanks again to Sam Sanders and our friends over at NPR's It's Been a Minute podcast. This episode is part of a really cool series they're doing right now that explores the idea of crossover in pop music across three decades. It starts with Soul Train, then moves to Janet Jackson's dominance of the pop charts, and then to the so-called

Latin pop explosion. They're breaking down each of these moments in music history and asking, who was it really for? Go check it out. sponsor Grammarly. What if everyone at work were an expert communicator? Inbox numbers would drop, customer satisfaction scores would rise, and everyone would be more productive. That's what happens when you give Grammarly to your entire team. Grammarly is a secure AI writing partner that understands your business and can transform it through better communication. Join 70,000 teams who trust Grammarly with their words and their data. Learn more at Grammarly.com. Grammarly. Easier said, done.