Throughline - Does America Need a Hero?

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

Captain America: an all-American superhero. Clad in red, white, and blue, he carries only a shield. And he fights only when he must. When it's right.But what happens when what's right isn't so clear? And how does a comic book hero designed to represent America's values survive in a changing world?Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from the podcast Hot Money, Agent of Chaos. Reporter Sam Jones investigates the former chief operating officer of Wirecard and his reporting spirals into a world of warlords, espionage and disinformation. Listen to Hot Money wherever you get podcasts. While most of you were playing ball in the sandlocks, this war started. Adolf Hitler's all-out attack on Poland makes the long-threaded European war a certainty. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Steve Rogers was a scrawny kid growing up in New York.

And to the Republic for which it stands. World War II was going on. The United States had not yet been involved. Adolf Hitler's mechanized forces are racing toward Paris as French resistance collapses. There was a lot of unrest going on in America of what was happening over in Europe and across the globe. We heard that a thing called the Nazi Party had taken over. He wanted to do what he could. A chance to help the Army Air Forces throw a punch that'll knock Hitler and Tojo bowlegging. He tried to enlist, but was rejected for all types of purposes.

One nation, indivisible. His size to having asthma, flat feet, he just couldn't be enlisted. But that wasn't gonna deter him. Eventually this caught the eye of the US military. They were going through their own experiments at the time to develop what is known as the super soldier. They approached Steve Rogers and said, listen, you have the heart. Would you be willing to try to do this experiment for your government?

And of course, he said absolutely. Don't be afraid, son. You're about to become one of America's saviors. Calmly. The young man allows himself to be inoculated with strange, seething liquid. There! It is done! He's changing. We shall call you Captain America.

The first issue of Captain America, it's a million seller. As the ruthless warmongers of Europe focus their eyes on a peace-loving America, the youth of our country heed the call to arm for defense. Lots and lots of people are reading comics. But great as the danger of foreign attack is the threat of invasion from within. Certainly once you get into the war, tens of thousands of issues of comics are going

out to GIs around the world. Death to the dogs of democracy! Come on out, you gunk! East and West, our nation is menaced as never before. And inside the Captain America comic books is this blond-haired, blue-eyed, white, all-American super soldier. He wears a red, white, and blue costume that looks like a reimagined American flag. A big star on his chest, stripes tight against bulging muscles engineered by the U.S. government. His power is his superhuman strength.

He carries no weapon, only a shield. And he fights only when he must. — He's not someone who has always known power. So he is someone who knows what it is like to be the one, getting sand kicked in their face. He's on the side of the little guy. Time for Captain America to go to work. Bam.

Many of us know Captain America from the many Marvel movies he's in. But let's face it, out of all the superheroes, he doesn't have the coolest superpower. He can't fly or shoot webs or turn invisible. But what he does have going for him, aside from his super strength, are his morals. He's a character that all the other characters in Marvel look up to when they don't know what's the right thing to do.

The right thing to do. — The right thing to do. — I came here to save blood, not to shed it. — In some ways, Steve Rogers, aka Captain America, is someone many of us might want to be, or might want to believe in. Kind of like America itself. We want to live in a place that stands up to bullies, that knows right from wrong, and calls out injustice. And because Steve Rogers is this scrawny kid behind the mask,

maybe he's someone we all can be. You are never going to be Superman. Unless you suddenly find a lot of money from somewhere. You are never going to be Batman. But, but there's always that chance, isn't there, that you could one day be Captain America? Justice will always triumph. You, me, any one of us, we could be the good guy doing the right thing. But what happens when what's right isn't so clear? How does a comic book hero designed to represent America's values

survive in a changing world? I'm Rand Abdel Fattah. And I'm Ram-Tina Arab-Louis. Coming up, producer Devin Katiyama brings us the story of Captain America's identity crisis and what happens next. — I'm Abdul from Montreal, Canada. Captain America, he's a child of Irish immigrants, and that's really why I relate to him as character, as an immigrant myself. Someone who's born for parents from Stuttagall taking on the American image in a sense, connecting to my American culture.

You're listening to Throughline from NPR. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things and other currencies. With WISE, you can send, spend, or receive money across borders, all at a fair exchange rate. No markups or hidden fees. Join millions of customers and visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial. When you think about the people you love, it's not the big things you miss the most. It's the details. What memories will your loved ones cherish when

you're gone? At Dignity Memorial, the details aren't just little things. They're everything. They help families create meaningful celebrations of life with professionalism and compassion. To find a provider near you, visit DignityMemorial.com. This message comes from the award-winning podcast, Dateline Missing in America, back with a new season and new unsolved cases. Listen closely to each story, follow the clues, and you could help bring a missing person home. Search Dateline Missing in America to follow now. In the latest ThruLine bonus episode, we'll hear about the history of Corridos, a type

of song that first arose during the Mexican-American War, and that are still very popular in music today. Sign up for ThruLine Plus now to listen, and get sponsor-free listening too. Go to plus.npr.org slash ThruLline to find out more. Part one, punching Nazis. Here's the front cover, issue number one of Captain America. Cap gives Hitler a right cross, while Nazis shoot their pistols.

There's a Tommy gun, too. A ricochet off Captain America's red, white, and blue shield as if he's untouchable. It's December, 1940. So you can see very clearly this front cover is making the case that we, Americans, can't stay out of this war. It is going to come to us, eventually. This is Michael Goodrum.

I am the author of Superheroes and American Self-Image, from war to Watergate. He's also a cultural history professor at Canterbury Christchurch University in England. So the first issue of Captain America Comics comes out a year before Pearl Harbor. For the first time in our history, we began mobilizing an army while still at peace. The US doesn't have troops on the ground, but Roosevelt runs in 1940 on the platform of being the arsenal of democracy.

We must be the great arsenal of democracy. For us, this is an emergency as serious as war itself. Supplying and supporting, but not direct involvement. Many Americans following the Depression and the brutality of World War I don't want to go to war. The US military is kind of small, and the war hasn't reached US shores yet. But that wasn't enough for some people. People like Joe Simon and Jack Kirby, the creators of Captain America.

Both Simon and Kirby are Jewish. They know what is happening in Europe. They can't go over and fight, but they need to do something to try and get people involved. As Joe Simon says that, we're always on the lookout for the next great villain, and it was becoming hard to think of a worse villain than Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler will lead us! Victory! Victory! That first issue of Captain America, the one where caps punching Adolf Hitler right in the face, sold around a million copies, and the audience was probably a lot bigger than

that since comic books would get passed around like a Netflix login. It was mostly kids reading comics, but since they were sold on newsstands and drugstores, a lot of people would have seen that front cover, including a group of Nazi sympathizers who terrorized Simon and Kirby. And it was in that moment, around the time the first issue came out, that a guy looking for work got a gig helping out. Stanley is probably the best known figure in American comic books ever. Stan Lee went on to help create hundreds of superheroes, iconic ones like Spider-Man, Black Panther,

The Hulk, Iron Man, X-Men. Stan really is kind of a Walt Disney kind of figure. Strangely enough, Disney now owns Marvel. This is Danny Fingerroth. He worked with Stan Lee as a comic book writer and editor for years. He also wrote... A Marvelous Life, the Amazing Story of Stan Lee.

So Stan got this job as an assistant to Simon and Kirby, running errands, proofreading, the background stuff. But then in just the third issue, they asked him to write a short storyline for Captain America. It's only a couple of pages, but in it, you start to see iconic pieces of Cap's identity being born. Captain America throws his shield.

He hurls the spinning disc across the room, knocking a knife out of a bad guy's hand. What an iconic thing that would go on to become. And all of a sudden, Cap's main prop, this tool for defense... You can hide behind the shield. Great. ...becomes a weapon. And Stanley would get more chances to write over the next year, as Captain America became this Nazi fighting machine. And then, December 1941, the U.S. enters the war.

The following year, Stanton lists in the army, working in military communications. But on the side, he keeps writing Captain America. Today a terrible menace is closing in upon us from all sides. It is the menace of fascism. One of these two worlds must break the sun. Things are in turmoil in the East. A bold stroke would put power in the hands of anybody. Cap fights Nazi saboteurs and Japanese soldiers. And I'm not gonna lie, the art didn't age well.

There were a lot of racist stereotypes, but patriotism sold well during the war. Stan even included not-so-subtle messages for Americans to sacrifice for the greater good. You know that it's the duty of every American to buy war stamps and bonds? And then, as the Allied powers start winning the war, something strange happens.

The popularity of superheroes begins to fade. It's difficult to have superheroes fighting the war when you are fighting the war, your brother is fighting the war, your dad, your uncle. Real people are fighting and winning. 1944, the tide is turning. We shall completely destroy Japan's power to make war. And then in August of 1945, the US drops two atomic bombs on Japan. One on Hiroshima.

If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth." And then a few days later, on Nagasaki, Japan agrees to surrender. And the war ends. After the war, America emerges as a global superpower. There's relief, there's a little bit of optimism, but for Captain America there's some big questions about what comes next. Because what does a superhero

engineered by the US military do when the war is over? Who does he fight? What's his role in the country? And what is America? Captain America without a big war that the country is involved in almost becomes directionless. I've been getting restless and I've got to go back to work. So in 1946, Stan tries to address the private life of Captain America. I'll take a run down to this school. Cap becomes a teacher, but he also goes on to fight criminals and monsters and he doesn't have a clear enemy or purpose The genres of comics were also expanding romance Western crime at one point in

1949 Captain America gets into horror and is brought down to hell by this satanic Very But to be relevant again, Captain America needs a worthy enemy, one that the entire country can rally behind. And then? The Cold War. We all know the atomic bomb is very dangerous. In recognizing a communist, physical appearance counts for nothing.

Since it may be used against us, we must get ready for it. Freedom-loving peoples all over the world stand alert to the menace of communism. Captain America was no longer needed to fight Nazis or to fight the Japanese army or saboteurs. This is Rick Verbanis, co-host of the Captain America comic book fans podcast. Now there was a new villain. Now there was a new threat, and that was communism. So in 1954, Cap's like, alright, I got it. He comes back as Captain America Commie Smasher.

Commie Smasher. And he's fighting shady looking dudes, but he's also fighting guys like an all-American star athlete and scholar. The kind of boy that all good American boys should be looking up to. Hmm, reminds me of someone. Who's secretly a communist spy trying to influence the young minds of Americans. Comrade, you have done a fine job all these years. Are you ready?

I am, comrade. He decides he's going to blow up the UN building in New York. Give up the UN! Let each country have peace or war as it wishes! He's a Red Spy. And we've got to prove it. Cap stops the bomb from exploding, takes down the spy, who admits,

I work for the Reds. It's all a communist plot. And at the end of the story, Captain America says, Americans play not to win, necessarily, but for the sake of good sportsmanship and fair play. Which Nazis and Reds know nothing about at all. So again, it's that kind of conflation of fascism and communism. But these ideologies are different. Fighting communism wasn't the same as fighting fascism and the Nazis.

The enemy during the Cold War wasn't as clear and wasn't even necessarily over there. It could be within the country itself. Even if there are only one communist in the State Department, there could still be one communist, two murderers. By the early 1950s, all kinds of people were being labeled communists. The Red Scare, the Lavender Scare, Hollywood had its blacklists. It was a witch hunt. whether you admit or deny that you're a member of the Communist Party. And pretty soon, in 1954, comic books would be put on trial too. Comic books are an important contributing factor in many cases of juvenile delinquency.

At the same time the McCarthy hearings against communism were happening, the Senate also held hearings concerning the influence of comic books on kids. The star witness for the prosecution, as it were, is Fredrick Wersum. A German-born psychiatrist who was generally considered a progressive thinker, he also wrote a book called Seduction of the Innocent. I hate to say that, Senator, but I think Hitler was a beginner compared to the comic book industry. He turns up with a whip that he's bought out of the back of one of the comics.

And his message? That comic books are damaging the minds of children back of one of the comics. And his message? That comic books are damaging the minds of children because of their gruesome images, their violence and sexual or racist depictions. Not very many people come to the defense of comics. And in the middle of these Senate hearings, Captain America fades away. And a lot of other comics do too. The Senate hearings make comics toxic. No one wants to go near comics after this. Amidst these hearings, fearing federal regulation, the comic book industry established its own

censorship system known as the Comics Code. It would limit what comics could do, no sex, drugs or anything bad about authority. Good always has to be shown to win. And good is defined as the law, politicians, all the way up to the very elite of the American legal and political system. In other words, the establishment. It becomes very difficult for comics to do any social criticism. But the United States was going through its own identity crisis, and soon the counterculture

of the 1960s would start clashing with the establishment, and Captain America would return. That's coming up. Hi, this is Leah Hager, and I am calling from Fort Collins, Colorado just to rave about Thru Line. Every episode I listen to is, I don't know, it sounds extreme but maybe a little life changing especially episodes that touch on the heart of issues that are going on in our world today. And you're listening to Thru Line from NPR.

This message comes from the Kresge Foundation. Established 100 years ago, the Kresge Foundation works to expand equity and opportunity in cities across America. A century of impact, a future of opportunity. More at Kresge.org. Part Two. A Man Out of Time. So in this block of ice is just a dark silhouette of a figure. But you don't know who it is. And it's starting to slowly dissolve. And then we see a bit of a hand poke out of the ice.

A human bare hand. Slowly melting and floating away. In 1964, Iron Man, Giant Man, Wasp, and Thor, the Avengers, are cruising in their submarine and they find this body suspended in animation, locked in an iceberg, dissolving in the ocean. They pull him out of the water into the submarine. Who can he be? And realize, wait, it's the famous red, white, and blue garb of Captain America. He's breathing.

His eyes, they're flickering. It's him. This is Rick Verbanis, co-host of the Captain America comic book fans podcast. He says after the comics code is established, DC Comics starts reimagining some of their legacy superheroes. And Marvel responds by creating new superheroes of their own. But this time, they make them more reflective, flawed, human, and superheroes start making a comeback. So Stan Lee over at Marvel says, which of our legacy characters should we bring back? Stan Lee was the ultimate marketing guru. And when Captain America reappears in 1964, frozen in ice, Stan told fans on the inside cover

of the comic book that Cap's comeback was because they demanded it. Maybe that's true. A tale destined to become a magnificent milestone in the Marvel age of comics, bringing you the great superhero which your wonderful avalanche of fan mail demanded. You're getting the heavy sales pitch here. Stan somehow made this appearance of Captain America the most important event of my life. Again, Danny Fingerroth, the author of A Marvelous Life,

the amazing story of Stan Lee. I bought three copies. That's right, I invested 36 cents. In that issue, Avengers number four. Captain America has been frozen in ice for about 20 years since the end of World War II. And when he thaws out, the Avengers bring him to New York. He sees the differences in the styles.

The fashions, the hairdos. He sees two women with their hair piled high in beehives. How different they are. The cars are different. He's looking at a small green convertible. The New York skyline is different. And later, at a hotel, he's watching TV for the first time. What happens next?

And he really is truly a man out of time. I don't belong in this age, in this year. No place for me. Tectonic generational shifts were happening in American society. The civil rights movement was going on, the women's rights movement. The president had been assassinated. The war in Vietnam was escalating. I mean, we were building rocket ships to the moon. Cap became this like Hamlet kind of character,

just always with his hands stapled to his forehead in grief and anguish. Stan Lee is making Steve Rogers a human. Steve Rogers, that scrawny kid behind Captain America's heroic mask. All my life I've tried to find a place for Steve Rogers, that scrawny kid behind Captain America's heroic mask. All my life I've tried to find a place for Steve Rogers, but he still lives under the more colorful shadow of Captain America. Steve questions his place in the world.

Am I destined to go through life with no real identity of my own? His place in modern society. Am I destined to go through life with no real identity of my own? His place in modern society. This is a new world, a new age. An age of atomic power, space exploration, social upheaval, and yet an age over which the threat of war hangs heavy once again. And he questions whether or not he's a relic. And so long as danger beckons,

there's still a need for an old relic like Captain America. And it wasn't just Stan and Cap who were thinking about the character's identity. Marvel was also printing letters from fans inside the comic books where they would debate who Cap should be, what he should stand for, and really what does it mean to be an American hero? His roots belong in the past, not now. There was a lot of different letters that came in that were basically saying the same thing.

No one but a dreamer can think the world is safe and peaceful. You know, we need a Captain America in our world today. Comics are based on patriotism. And then others are like, ah, you know, he no longer serves a purpose in this world. The dear Captain is far from a war lover. Cap is a war lover. We don't need a patriotic symbol. I see nothing wrong with Captain America being a conservative or a lover of America.

You guys know that Cap is a defender of the establishment. Most Captain America comics in the late 1960s had at least one letter arguing about Captain America's identity. It became known as the patriotism-centered controversy. Captain America is not a superhero. He's a super American. Stan saw things were changing and he also saw that his audience was changing. So it was a big problem for somebody in entertainment like that. You know, if you take a stand on an issue,

you potentially lose half your audience. But it became harder for Stan to ignore his audience, especially since he'd been touring colleges and speaking with students who were talking to him about war and peace and civil rights, just as much as they wanted to talk about his comics. So he tries to respond in different ways. He creates the Falcon,

one of Marvel's first black superheroes. And the Falcon is introduced in a Captain America comic, but it's trickier than that. Because what is an uber patriot from an older generation? Think about things like racism and segregation or the war in Vietnam. Which side does he fall on? Superheroes are good at a lot of things, but certainly in the 60s they're not great at

complex interventions. Michael Goodrum wrote about this in his book, Superheroes and American Self-Image, and he says one place where it gets complex for Captain America is on college campuses. Captain America engages with two different student protests in two different ways. It's 1969 and by now there have been a lot of high-profile protests on college campuses over civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, and of course the war in Vietnam. And Captain America is still wondering what his role in society is.

If I gave up this life, what would it really matter? But he's Cap, so. He's sent kind of undercover as a gym teacher to investigate why a student leader, he's suddenly become a rabble rouser. Listen, are you with me? He sees that there's these protests that seem to be getting a little out of hand. Hey, kids, stop it! A student is kind of roughing around a professor.

The student is Mark Baker, our most articulate, most respected student leader. It turns out that Mark Baker has been brainwashed. Now we're better about things around here. And another student passing as a radical hippie is doing the brainwashing on behalf of a supervillain. You're gonna let a bunch of establishment goons try to stop us? He's got the long hair and the beard and the sunglasses.

His name is Grizzly. Of course it is. Don't listen to him, Mark. We can take him. It really conveys a feeling of violence about to erupt. And so Cap gets in the middle of it. If they have to call the police, then anything may happen. But maybe Captain America can break them up

before it's too late. But I've got to be careful. I'll be facing students, not supervillains." And it's subtle. You can see that Captain America has some empathy for the students who want more respect. But he's still fighting for the establishment. He takes down the radical students, saves a professor, and then the dean kind of lectures the student leader at the end. You're still free to dissent, but let's try for a little education between riots, okay?

The implicit line of that is student radicalism is harming us. It could be a cover for bad things, right? But this younger generation wasn't being silenced. And in May of 1970, the opposition to the war in Vietnam would reach a turning point when the National Guard killed four students at Kent State who were protesting. Whether or not it was on Stan's mind when he was writing Captain America, it was definitely on the minds of people in the United States. The next time Stan Lee writes a student protest,

it's quite different. He sees that there's a lot of armored policemen, helmets and batons going up against civilians. Here's where I ought to step in and make like a swinging hero. And Cap thinks to himself, but how do I know whose side to take? What the heck? The cops don't need any help, but these kids do. So Captain America intervenes on the side of the students against the police. Cap still doesn't quite understand why some students

feel like they have to resort to violence and can't be more like him, measured and reasonable. And this is where having strong morals gets tricky because applying those morals, doing the right thing in real life means that you're often taking sides, which Cap does. Later, he's asked to read a speech on television promoting law and order, and he breaks from the script.

I've been asked to speak to you today to warn America about those who try to change our institutions. But in a pig's eye, I'll warn you. This nation was founded by dissidents, by people who wanted something better. There is nothing sacred about the status quo, and there never will be. I don't believe in using force or violence because they can be the weapons of those who would enslave us. But nor do I believe in an establishment

that remains so aloof, so distant, that the people are driven to desperate measures." The audience both loved and hated this story, according to Stan Lee. And a few months later, Stan wrote an editorial in a Captain America comic responding to critics who didn't think Marvel should do stories about politics or civil rights or the environment, what Stan called real issues. And he wrote that he was hearing it from all sides, saying, quote,

"'We're just trying to make some sense "'out of the nutty news items and ridiculous reports "'that assail our senses every minute. If we can make you think, if we can anger you, arouse you, stimulate and provoke you, then we've served our purpose. It's a dialogue with the times. They're leading a discussion that is then helping people to work out how they fit in the country and how they conceive the country. Everybody has a different interpretation of what Captain America is and who he should be.

In the 50s, the villains were the commies, and then you get to the 60s. And what does Captain America stand for? That's really been an issue with Captain America ever since he was thought, you know, in 1964. Coming up, as the U.S. sinks deeper into Vietnam, a conscientious objector becomes the voice of an American war hero. You're listening to Throughline from NPR. I'm Jack from New Jersey and Captain America is my favorite character of all time, as he acts as a constant reminder of what the American dream should be.

Part 3. The Secret Empire. Checking, checking, testing, testing. Hello. Hello. You've come to the right place. Good to meet you. I'm Devin. Yeah, hi Devin.

This is comic book writer Steve Engelhardt. I met up with him at his home in Oakland, California. Should I take my shoes off? No, I don't care. Steve has worked on everything from X-Men to the Avengers to Batman and Captain America, which he took over writing in the 1970s. We'll get to how that happened in just a bit. I always wanted a secret room like Batman had, you know, where you go through the grandfather

clock and go into the cave or whatever. At this point, Steve walks me into his den. And so we built this. It's a bookcase. That's the secret door. Unfortunately, it drags on the floor, so I have to mess with it. We walked through the bookcase and were immediately

met with sunlight streaming through the windows. Not exactly Batcave vibes, but pretty cool. And the room is lined with shelves full of cases of comic books. This is the 50s Captain America and then in the next box, I guess. And are these organized by issue or are they just... Yeah, by issue. Well, by title, all my Captain Americas and then we go to Doc Savage. Ten-year-old Steve would have been in awe of this secret comic book layer.

Comics were one of his first passions in life, although by the time he got to college, he wasn't exactly planning a future in comic writing. I graduated from college with my degree and I got accepted at law school at University of Michigan, actually. But it was 1969. The Vietnam War was raging, and he was expecting his draft orders to come down any day. I do not find it easy to send the flower of our youth,

our finest young men, into battle. We did not choose to be the guardians of the game. But there is no one else. I had no interest in fighting a war, but you know, you're a young American male at the time period, you can either flee to Canada or you can just say this is the way it is. So I enlisted and chose journalism.

I was in basic training at Fort Knox and there was another guy from Indianapolis where I was living by that time. I didn't know him, but because we were both from Indianapolis, we kind of bonded during the basic training. He went to Vietnam and was there about three days and stepped on a landmine and blew his legs off and took a week to die from what I heard. Steve was hearing a lot of stories like that on the base, people coming back from Vietnam disillusioned and broken, including

his sergeant in the journalism office. The sergeant had made himself an ashtray and he put the American flag decal on the bottom of the ashtray so he could grind his cigarettes out on it. In other words, like, this is what the American flag deserves. Yeah, yeah. And so eventually, I decided that I was going to get out of all of this. Steve asked to leave the army on the grounds that he was a conscientious objector. If I had lost the case, I would have been in Saigon the next day.

And then the orders came down that I was allowed to get out, and I left. I hopped on a train, went up to New York, and started trying to get into comics. It was 1970, and New York was the place to be if you had dreams of writing for the two big comic publishers, DC or Marvel. I ended up living in a sixth floor walk up in the Bronx with three other guys and one of the guys' mothers. You know, it was like your whole starving artist come to New York, get started kind of thing. He took whatever work he could find.

One page fillers, mysteries or romances or you know backgrounds for other better artists. And eventually in 1971 he lucked into a position at Marvel. One of the people I knew was the writer on Nick Fury, agent of SHIELD, and he called me up and he said I'm gonna be gone six weeks can you you know take over my job at Marvel?" At the end of six weeks, decided not to come back. Which meant Steve could keep the job at Marvel. Eventually I got The Beast from the X-Men, and they liked the way I was doing The Beast. So then like two months later, they came to me and said, okay, Captain America, this book is not doing well.

It was Marvel's least successful superhero book. And so they tell Steve, hey, we'd love it if you could take one last stab at reviving this defunct superhero. We're not really necessarily expecting you to figure something out, but you know, maybe you can. So Steve goes home and rereads every issue of Captain America he had, and he begins to

wonder if maybe where the writers before him went wrong was trying to equate Captain America with the American government or military, with institutions. Instead, Steve thought, What if he stood for American ideals? The stuff that transcends whatever America's doing at this particular time. So I wrote my first story with that in mind. Captain America, hero or hoax?

In this new storyline, there are two Captain Americas. Fake one? I am Captain America. Your friend is some pinko who has duped the American public who's trying to sell out this great nation to the Reds. This Cap is a racist Cap who beats up black people in Harlem and is still obsessed with fighting communists. We found that most people who weren't pure-blooded Americans were commies. And then there's the real Cap, who's become more progressive. You think I'm a traitor? Grow up, fella. Times have changed. America is in danger from within

as well as without. The two of them fight. Wham! Bam! Zuck! And the real Cap wins. And so does Marvel. This storyline made Captain America comics best sellers again. And the real Cap wins. And so does Marvel. This storyline made Captain America comics best sellers again. And just as Steve gets going... They caught the Watergate burglars breaking into the Watergate Hotel to burgle the Democrats. The incident raises a number of serious questions about the credibility of politicians and political

groups. By 1973, it was becoming clearer that the Nixon administration might have had a hand in the break-in. I welcome this kind of examination because people have got to know whether or not their president's a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. Steve was hooked on this story, as was most of America, and he tuned into updates as he packed up his apartment into a U-Haul, preparing to cross the country for a big move out west. Meanwhile, he was working on something new for Captain America, and when he finally hit the road, the radio was a constant companion. Once again, on all things considered, we're going to sample some opinions concerning Watergate.

So I'm driving all day long, listening to Watergate. Otherwise referred to as the caper of the bungled buggy. Thinking about America. There's a feeling of frustration and bitterness and cynicism all over the country about... Seeing the country change from the East Coast into the Midwest flatlands and the rolling hills. ...a lot like political analysts, a group of second and third graders in Maryville, Missouri. The Rockies, deserts and mountains.

What is Watergate? It might be something like a water bed, only it's a Watergate. All the while, Steve is asking himself... If I were Captain America, what would I do? And by the time he got to California, his new storyline for Captain America was complete. The Secret Empire. I wasn't writing a crime documentary.

I was writing a Captain America comic book. So I recast stuff. Nixon's right-hand man was Haldeman, who had been an advertising guy. And I came up with a character called Harderman, who was an advertising guy. And Nixon's re-election committee was the committee to re-elect the president, which was known as creep. And I came up with the committee to regain America's principles, which is known as crap. Captain America one day discovered that there were ads being run by the committee to regain America's principles, saying that Captain America was a vigilante, not to be trusted.

Then Captain America got thrown in jail. Suddenly, the jailhouse wall bursts into bits. And eventually he broke out of jail. Ultimately, they work out that the secret empire is behind all this. Michael Goodrum is the author of Superheroes, an American Self-Image. The secret empire is a secret organization that is aiming for greater power than democracy would allow them. And the head of the secret empire, Captain America, has a showdown with

him. Do not force my hand. Captain America chased him into the White House, into the Oval Office. All right, mister, into the line. I gambled on a coup to gain me the power I craved, and it appears that my gamble has finally failed. And he proves to be no match for Captain America. Cracker.

Defeated. He blows his brains out in front of Captain America. You never see his face, but... Nobody is in doubt really who that's supposed to be. I couldn't kill Richard Nixon in the comic book. Why couldn't you make him Nixon? Was that too far? I thought so. I mean, that was my decision, right? It was all up to me.

There was no editorial pushback at all from Marvel. I always thought he was like a New Deal liberal, that, you know, he was a Roosevelt guy. He'd grown up with Roosevelt as the president. And so he would have believed in the government's power to fix society's problems. So to have that guy find out that the president was a crook, I saw the possibilities of that guy being disillusioned. Once Captain America has had this showdown, he loses his faith in America. I'm the one who's seen everything Captain America fought for become a cynical sham. So he stops being Captain America

because he doesn't want to give the ideological support of him dressing up in the American flag to the government. He thinks that they're all corrupt, I can't defend them. So he becomes Nomad, the man without a country, and carries on trying to fight crime. Did you feel like it was a big risk to change his identity, to basically, you know, be anti-establishment? I mean, Captain America for so long was pro-establishment and now all of a sudden you flip the script. Well, the world was anti-establishment in those days. The energy was with young people. He doesn't want to stand for the America that he just saw.

It turned out, you know, that he could stand for ideals even if the president was a crook. Less than a year later, Nomad went back to being Captain America, and Steve Engelhardt eventually passed the baton to new writers. But Steve had forever changed the idea of what kind of patriot Captain America could be. That he could love his country, and also not love what his government was doing. But that wouldn't mean Captain America would always stay the same. And the iterations that followed have often been a response to the moment they're born in.

Cap's been more militant. He fought terrorism after 9-11. Then he was critical of Guantanamo Bay. There have been black Captain Americas, a native Captain America. In the latest Captain America movie, Cap teams up with a superhero originally named Sabra, an agent for Israel's national intelligence agency, Mossad. After getting backlash, the studio decided to call her Ruth, and had her work instead for the United States. These debates about what Captain America should stand for, who he should fight for, and what is right or wrong, they're all part of a

conversation we continue to have about who we are and who we want to be. We're doing episodes on amendments and one of our guests talked about amendments to the U.S. Constitution as these majestic generalities, like intentionally vague morals and ethics that speak to something greater. And I kind of see Captain America as one of these majestic generalities. It's a good phrase. It kind of sums up Captain America. You can make of him what you will, but it is supposed to be majestic.

It's beautifully crafted in terms of setting up the critique of the systems in America and then working it background so that you follow Captain America through the journey of re-soliciting your ideological belief in the idea of America. You want to believe the best of people and that there's always someone out there who's going to do the right thing. That's it for this week's show. I'm Ramtin Arab-Louis. I'm Rand Abdel Fattah, and you've been listening to Throughline from NPR. This episode was produced by me.

And me and. Lawrence Wu. Julie Kane. Anya Steinberg. Casey Miner. Christina Kim. Devin Kadiyama. Irene Noguchi.

This is Christopher Beale, and I played Captain America. Thanks to Neil Van De Hei, Chad Bryan, Don Moore, Sandhya Dirks, J.C. Howard, Cameron Fraser, Dustin Brumley, Ryan Dorgun, and Ali Katayama for their voiceover work. Also thanks to Amber Tse, Tony Kavin, Johannes Durgi, Edith Chapin, and Colin Campbell. Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Voeckel. The episode was mixed and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Music for this episode was composed by Romteen and his band, Drop Electric, which includes Anya Mizani, Naveed Marvi, Sho Fujiwara. And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on this show,

please write us at throughline at npr.org. And make sure you follow us on Apple, Spotify, or the NPR app. That way, you'll never miss an episode. Thanks for listening. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Kauffman Foundation, providing access to opportunities that help people achieve financial stability, upward mobility, and economic prosperity, regardless of race, gender, or geography. Kauffman.org.

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