Throughline - Radiolab: Worst. Year. Ever

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

What was the worst year to be alive on planet Earth? We make the case for 536 AD, which set off a cascade of catastrophes that is almost too horrible to imagine. A supervolcano. The disappearance of shadows. A failure of bread. Plague rats. Using evidence painstakingly gathered around the world - from Mongolian tree rings to Greenlandic ice cores to Mayan artifacts - we paint a portrait of what scientists and historians think went wrong, and what we think it felt like to be there in real time. (Spoiler: not so hot.) We hear a hymn for the dead from the ancient kingdom of Axum, the closest we can get to the sound of grief from a millennium and a half ago.The horrors of 536 make us wonder about the parallels and perpendiculars with our own time: does it make you feel any better knowing that your suffering is part of a global crisis? Or does it just make things worse?" This week we're sharing a bonus episode from Radiolab: Worst. Year. Ever. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey everyone, Run here. And Ramti. And today, we've got something very special for you. We teamed up with Radiolab, one of our favorite shows, to bring you their episode, Worst Year Ever. I really love this episode and wanted to share it with all of you because at its core, the story is about hope. It transports us to another time and place

where things are very difficult for humanity and deals with all the philosophical questions that come from that. But before we play it for you, here's a little chat Rande and I had with Radiolab hosts, Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser. hi hi lulu hi latif hi rompine hi i'm so excited for this conversation i'm runned i think we've all we all we all kind of know each other so we know each other sure yeah i'm rompine one of the co-hosts of the show too okay and on our side so i'm latif uh i'm one of the co-hosts of the show, too. Okay. And on our side, so I'm Luthif. I'm one of the co-hosts of Read Alive. I'm also like, I'm also like, I'm a history nerd.

I'm like a deep history nerd. I went to grad school and studied history. I love history. And I love your show. That's anyway. Well, we love your show. So this is why we're here. I didn't know that, though.

I didn't know you went to grad school after history oh he is history if you pitch if you put anything on a pitch doc about like an obscure amazing history that has blown you away he's like yeah well i wrote a paper about that and someone here's great you could talk to i am also a longtime Throughline fan, first time caller, Lulu Miller, also a co-host of Radio Lab, with the distinct honor of like, I sat next to Ramtin as he was just, he was like, I feel like you were making the musician to radio reporter transition. And there was like, you were producing and cutting tape maybe for ted radio hour or maybe something else yeah and how i built this yeah and you had a big sparkle in your eye and you were always like but can i write you guys original music but can i pitch you a story and uh you were just in this like uh you just like emanated electricity and uh like literal and metaphoric.

And I think I got to like hear some early through lines when you guys were just starting. And it sounded so good. And then it's just now it's like your fifth birthday, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And now it's just you're just powerhouses. And I don't know. I love being a listener. Yeah.

I want you both to know like Radiolab was hugely influential on us. Like, I don't know. I love being a listener. Yeah. I want you both to know Radio Lab was hugely influential on us. Like, I don't know how to, we can't really overstate how influential it was because it just expanded the creative parts of our mind in terms of what, because we're movie buffs. We love dissecting film and TV shows and all that. And it made us believe we can translate that into a podcast form. So, I mean, honestly, like so much of the sound of the show was initially like inspired by what we were hearing from you all. Yeah, it was like, why can't we do it like a radio lab for history? Yeah.

You know, it actually makes me think about like the evolution that radio labs gone through right over time and the fact that like since you i think since you all have taken over it's like hit new notes that it had been before and i wonder like how is the show in for your mind in terms of the dna of the show changed i think since especially in the last like let's say couple of years since you all have been at the helm. Well, you know, you know, one of the things I think that Latif and I both are bringing. So since since since Jad, trusty creator of Radiolab and OG host Jad and then Robert Cole, which they both kind of after 20 years decided to move on and do other things and foolishly handed over the host chairs

to me and Latif here. So one of the main things of the DNA is don't break it. But then the next thing is also, I mean, I think Latif and I have a very authentic desire to return to science. And not completely. I mean, Radiolab forever will be about curiosity and taking that wherever it goes. But I do think that in some of the later years of Jad's time kind of steering the ship, there was, you know, he created more perfect. There was like a turn to the law and all kinds, you know, country music, bless the Dolly Parton stuff. But there was, I think, a desire to bust away from science for Dolly Parton stuff. But there was, I think, a desire to bust away from science for a little bit. And I think Latif and I are authentically in love with science, but I think we're also rethinking expertise and what

science means or who you go to as a scientist. So I don't think it's like returning to OG Radiolab necessarily. But I do think there's a slight, I think that we pull it back to science. I think we both do that in different ways. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very happy to use that as a transition, though, to start gushing about your show if you'd like me to do that. Oh, no, we would hate that. Okay, great. Okay, great. Okay, great.

Perfunctory resistance register. Okay, so here's why I love your show. It's literally the thesis is in the title, but you also do it in every episode. It's like you'll find a thing, and it could be a really big profound thing uh or it could be like one of my favorite episodes you all did was the tipping episode like a seemingly very trivial thing but sometimes it's a really big thing like one of my other favorites was the sea people's episode um and that's like a big thing.

That's like a thing about... I'm haunted by that one now. Like climate refugees. So like it's like a small thing or a big thing in our world right now that all of us feel like we've been like facing this new problem for five minutes. And even the way that a lot of the media covers it,

it's like, this is the biggest thing ever. Like we use every kind of, um, hyperbolic language to make it feel like this moment we're so present centric. Like that's literally what the news is about. And then your podcast comes in and is like, no,

actually there's this, this is something we've been grappling with for a really long time. tipping is like, I don't know why that's like the perfect example to me because that's a thing that like nobody thinks about the sort of prehistory of um except you all and that's why it's so great it's like it's it's it's refreshing it makes you feel small but it also makes you feel big that's kind of amazing thank you i i want to say that and I'm not trying to deflect here. I mean it. I think it makes me think about, there's a Radiolab episode that Ronda and I, I remember,

both talked about probably endlessly for a couple months called The Queen of Dying. The one about grieving. And that to me is like an episode like we would have dreamed of making, right? It has the same it achieves the same goal that we try to achieve where you're telling a story of someone who has done something in the past or a process that's occurred in the past that now kind of shapes the way we do that thing now right whether it's tipping or grieving and i think to me that's the magic of any of the form of this of storytelling it what we were inspired by, by Radio Lab.

And we try to shoot for is bringing things from the past and making them feel present, making them feel real and making us all feel that kind of connectivity and maybe a little like a little less lonely, like our hope. Because that's often what I feel after I listen to Radio Lab episode. I feel like a little less lonely, like that hole in my heart that we all have that hole in our being is filled a little bit more and i like i just i i think that's the goal of what we do every single episode we try to do and i think that's what you all do it too i think it's also really interesting latif that you bring up you know that that episode um 1177 i think we call it what happened

after the year after civilization collapsed and then like like, you know, the, the, the episode that we're, that we're going to be playing, like it has a lot of interesting parallels, right. With that episode, the, the one,

the title of the episode we're going to be playing from you all, it's called worst year ever, which, which like for a lot of people, right. Worst year ever, best title ever. You know what I mean?

Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. It is. It is. I also I also, the emphasis, the periods, it's chef's kiss. But no, I think that's a perfect example of the sort of kindred spirits of our shows. Totally. You know? Totally.

Yeah. Everyone else is talking about every other possible thing. Nobody else is covering the, like, 10th century or whatever it is. I feel like we're like, yeah, we're like the lonely weirdos. We're like, oh, yeah, no, that is that. I see all you reporters in that press scrum over there, like talking to something, talking about something really consequential and now. And we're just going to we're going to time travel back to a time when, yeah.

Yeah, and I guess, I mean, the other thing I'll just add on there is like, and then what you guys add, it isn't just like fun fact or neat camera. That's right. I think what I actually get in a way that surprises me is, is emotion. Like, I, I mean, I, there's often like a subtext, uh, to your reporting that I feel like, um, can, can let people also look into the future or empower them to think about new ways through a stuck situation. But it is a similar, like the scrum of reporters are over here reporting on this thing and you're like well let me tell you why this story from 1949 in china has something to do with today um so it's very artful i think often what you guys are choosing to listen to and that's why i love to listen because i'm

like what are they going to teach me right now well i think what uh the similar and part of the reason we wanted to run a worst year ever can you it, but can you say it like Worst Year Ever? That is not required. That is not required. Well, I really picture it with vocal fry, those periods in there. And it's just like, wow. Okay, you don't have to. Dilatif doesn't require it, but I endorse it.

You should have used that in the episode actually no you know actually that episode is like sneaky has really fire music and sound design right it's like a conversation but the tasteful restraint that's used in it is that's one reason that we really like it the other thing is what worst year ever to me it's all it's the what's the magic of it is the thought experiment of it right the just's the magic of it is the thought experiment of it right the just the very question of like when you're in the worst year ever do you know you're in the worst year ever right right or something you said at the end lulu which was like this makes me want to just like go out and and look at my shadow like the appreciation for

what we have in this moment and i think those are the things that make uh for me at least like the kind of thing we do is by telling these stories that's what makes them emotional and made me think like are we living the worst year like are we living in the worst year ever now when do we ever know and that's just that way of thinking about things systemically it makes me somehow weirdly feel like it's like reassuring in a weird way that I'm just like part of this big thing that's happening that I can do all I can in my own life but ultimately like I'm I'm both lucky and maybe perhaps unfortunate to be a part of like these larger forces at work every single day in a weird way focusing and I know this is something for us that comes up like optimism pessimism are very tricky words for us and we always are like what

is our kind of goal our goal is not to like depress or uplift right it's to sort of take you on a journey and make you think about something differently and I mean I'll say for myself like in this moment where you know it is it's a hard moment And I think what I take away from it is also that things have been bad and things are capable of changing. Like that history is not stagnant. It never stays super good or super bad or super bad in a specific way for long, right? And-

Just changing super bads. It's just new super bads. But sometimes it goes bad to good. And I think that ebb and flow is, again, I don't even like to think in terms of optimism and pessimism. I think more in terms of this is the nature of the world. This is what it means to be a human. I think that's what we're all striving to do a little bit better, I think, on our shows is just to understand the the condition of like existing in this really weird, really complicated world and hopefully extend that to like the people listening.

Right. And I don't know. There's some like Romney said, there's like some solace in that, even when it is like really, you know, when it's a dark time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rutger Bregman was a historian who was on our show and he said something that always stuck with me, which he said the study of history

is the most subversive area of study because it teaches us things can be different. It proves to us things can be different and it's kind of up to us to change them. So now, without further ado, here's Radiolab's Radiolab. From WNYC. WNYC. WNYC. Hey, I'm Latif Nasser.

This is Radiolab. I'm getting all settled. Okay. And to kick off this new year, our very first episode of 2022, Jad and Lulu and I were supposed to have a conversation. Okay. About what our favorite things were from the last year, like books and movies, that kind of thing.

Okay. Let's do it. But I have brought you both here with a ruse. I mean, we may do favorite things, but that's not what I'm prepared to do today. Wait, so that was a fake out? I prepared my favorite things. I'm hijacking you both. Ooh.

Okay. Okay, you ready? Yeah. Very. So we are starting a new year. It feels kind of like the last two sort of blur together. And I'm constantly thinking like, which was worse, 2020 or 2021? But then that took me to a different place, which is like, what was the worst year ever?

Not in recent memory, but in human history. Like, was there an objectively worst year to be a person alive on planet Earth? My mind goes to parameter questions. Yeah. Okay, great. When is the boundaries? So maybe let's say the worst year in recorded history. Got it.

And then worst, do you have like an operating definition for that? Maybe something that like that hit a lot of people in a way that if we were alive then we and we had a choice between living then and living now, we would say, yes, please, 2020 or 2021, please. You're sick, sick mind, Latif. Well, I mean, I admit it's kind of a dark thought to have, but I was thinking about it in a kind of positive way. Like, the worst year in human history, if I can pin that down, I'll at least know that, you know,

2022 is almost certainly not going to be as bad as that. And then I'll feel better about that. And, like, whatever's ahead? And whatever's ahead. Okay. Sorry. So fully embracing the suck that is 2020 and 2021, what year would you pit up against it to say this is a worthy adversary?

I was thinking Pompeii. The Black Death. Yeah. That's got to be top five. At least if you're like, if you're just going to focus on Europe. You could do 1939. Crusades. Wasn't that the 12th century?

Crusades. 1781. Mongolian invasion. Which was actually, there are some really good things that came out of that. So, you know. I mean, you could say like 1492 from the American perspective. Yes. I recently came across this thing that in 1100 AD, the moon disappeared for a lot of the year.

It disappeared. So I think that would be terrifying as either someone who is spiritual or isn't. This is very interesting because you're bringing up a lot of stuff that I'm going to bring up too. But, okay, so the year. The year that I think I want to make a case that this is the worst year in human history is 536 AD. 536. Whoa. Okay. All right, what's happening in the world in 536?

Okay, so just a quick picture of what the world looked like around the 530s. A few hundred million humans on planet Earth or thereabouts. The Roman Empire, you know, fully flowered. Then it fractured into two. Similar thing had happened in China. It also fractured. It is the classic period of the

Mayan civilization in Central America. So, these are like societies. Like, these are real societies, you know, with major cities and sewage systems and music scenes and stuff like that. Like, it's like, we're not quite in the modern world, but we're in, like, in a world we recognize.

Okay, so, toilets and toilets and, in a world we recognize. Okay, so toilets and loots. Basically, yeah. Okay, so what happens in 536 is not particularly clear. The leading theory is a volcanic eruption. Is this a singular eruption or is it a string of them? Almost certainly a string of them, but at least

one of them was enormous. Unclear where this eruption happened exactly, but spewed out ash and sulfates

and even tiny bits of glass into the stratosphere where it circulated around the Earth. But there's actually, there's another thing that happened there's kind of an extra twist uh which is that i spoke to this one scholar and what she thinks happened uh was that a few years prior hailey's comet passed by earth um and basically whipped us with its tail. And so the debris from that tail

entered our atmosphere, broke up in the night sky, and you could actually see it twinkling. Couldn't you imagine if the two things were separate events but happened on the same day? That would be crazy. That would be amazing. Or it could have been something completely different that triggered all this.

But this is like best guesses. So whether it was the volcanic sort of plume or whether it was the comet-like debris, it creates this thing they call a dust veil over the earth. And that triggers other strange regional weather patterns, including dust storms, which cause even more dust. So in November and December of 536 in the Chinese city of Nanjing, there's a report from the city that said, quote, yellow dust rained down like snow. It could be scooped up in handfuls. And that lasts from February 536 to June 537. So a year and a half, basically a solid winter. Oh, that's game of throwing shit right there.

Yeah, it's basically the coldest decade in the last 2000 years. And that triggers like massive crop failures. Yeah, it's basically the coldest decade in the last 2,000 years. And that triggers like massive crop failures and, you know, mass famine. So in Ireland in 536 and then also in 539, it's written in their annals that they have a, quote, failure of bread. Similar food shortages are documented in Korea, Japan, in China. It gets so bad by the 540s that in one area north of the Yellow River, seven or eight out of every 10 people died. And because the crops had failed, allegedly, survivors were forced to eat the corpses of the dead. No.

Oh, my God. One of the places where this hit worst was Scandinavia. 75% of the villages that they excavate from around that time, like, you can tell that they were abandoned. Basically, it's like all these Nordic people are like, screw it, we're getting out of here. And then they get on their boats and then they, like, travel around the world and they, it's like. All you need now is like an alien invasion. And I don't know. Well, there's I mean, there is more.

Another issue with this massive dust veil that some people have speculated about is like people were not getting a lot of sunlight. So they're not creating vitamin D in their bodies. And vitamin D, among other things, helps boost your immune system to fight bacterial infections. And also you can imagine there are all these farms and fields with crops. The plants are dying. The rats in the field and the other animals that are living out there start coming to where the people have, you know, stores of grain or rice or whatever. And that's near where people are living. So now you have people who are hungry. Weaker immune system. Possibly immune,

sort of compromised, meeting these filthy, desperate animals like rats who are carrying microscopic friends. So I'll let you guess what happens next. God. A plague. All kinds of sicknesses. All kinds of sicknesses, yes, but especially one. So they call it Justinian's Plague. This is 541, so five years later. This plague spreads basically across all

of Europe. It's commonly estimated to have killed tens of millions of people. I'm trying to sort of construct a composite reality from all of these things. I mean, it must have been cold as hell. There's rats and bacteria. Yeah. So these two geoscientists, Duthers and Rampino,

they basically combed through all of anything written around that time all over the world to try to find like did who talked about this and what did they say um and here's some of what they found so this is a guy from italy statesman type person uh cassiodorus senator he says the sun seems to have lost its wanted light and appears of a bluish color we marvel to see no shadows of our bodies at noon Wow. That is bad. Yeah, that's bad. Really?

And so vivid. The loss of the shadows. Like, you feel the bad. Yeah, that's bad. Really bad. And so vivid, the loss of the shadows. Like, you feel the cold. Yeah. Here's another one that's, like, equally vivid, I think. So, this is Mesopotamia. So, this is around the area where Syria is now. A guy named Zacharias of Mytilene, probably pronouncing that wrong, quote,

The winter was a severe one, so much so that from the large and unwanted quantity of snow, the birds perished. There was distress among men from the evil things. Oh, my gosh. What do you think the evil things means there? I don't know. I just left that in there because I did not know what that meant. And I was like, ooh, that's really dark and sinister. Yeah. Wow. But everybody, the entire globe is suffering through a 15-month winter.

Unclear if it's the whole globe, but much of the northern hemisphere for sure. But in Mayan history, there's this period. So this is the classic period of Mayan history. Then there's this little mini period that they call the classic period hiatus. And they have the Mayan people would make these special decorative stone pillars to like mark history and what is going on in history at that time. Basically, they just pause making them. What do you think? OK, we kind of talked about what it felt like temperature wise. But like, what do you think the world sounded like during these years or this year?

Well, I guess with the birds dying, probably quieter. But what's left is, I don't know, I imagine like walking on dried grass, like that kind of sound maybe, like don't know, I imagine like walking on dried grass, like that kind of sound maybe. Like, you know, the little scurrying of the rat feet over the fallow field or whatever. And then wind probably picks up if you don't have trees, lush plants to break it, right? So you probably get like... Thank you. do you know what i keep thinking about is any singular human in this moment

would be thinking about their own sorry state and their family and maybe their village. But that would be the sort of circumference of their awareness. They had no big picture. So like- I doubt anybody had the big picture of it. Right, but I mean, we can see

that it was a global catastrophe. And we see that about our own moment in a way that they couldn't. So I wonder if it would have felt like the worst year ever. So it's funny to think that like the awareness of the whole magnifies the misery. Or the awareness of the whole maybe makes you feel less lonely about it. Like it's not just you. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I wonder if there was someone who just like got on a horse and was like, I'm going to ride until like I get the sun back. And then just kept riding and then they never got it back. Out of the cold and then like never gets there. Yeah. Yeah, I guess what I keep thinking about suddenly is, um, given that I'm an old man and now it's my sort of inherited birthright to complain about young people. Um, there's such a fixation on mental health amongst, amongst, you know, kids. Right. And I think, thank God that's amazing. But at the same time, I think, wow, your lives are so great.

You know what I mean? But then I think, does it feel great? Probably doesn't. Objectively, their lives are so much more comfortable than a life would have been in 536. But maybe? Like, what if a comet and a volcano blew up? Can you imagine the wall-to-wall CNN and the tweeting and the retweeting and the constant, like, sharing of misery? It must feel like, it would feel like misery amplified in a way that it probably hasn't at any other time. But the sharing, yes, there is misery amplified and that. But like think about when the Italians made that video for us. Do you remember that? This little message in a bottle of like, take it seriously. Learn from us. Stay inside for a couple of weeks. It felt like that was a moment where the cross-planetary awareness allowed our best sides to try to come out.

And the let's work together. And let's work together. And watching how different leaders approach it and then being able to just look back and see what works and then take strategies and make mistakes and learn. And the sharing and the solidarity allowed us to way more quickly collaborate. I mean, yeah, that is true. But like, OK, like think back to 536, right? Probably most people alive on planet Earth at the time believed that what was happening, the horrors that were befalling them were coming from above. They were an act of God or gods. And then now what's going on, so much of what's going on, it feels like it's happening because of us, like something we're doing to ourselves and to each other. And sort of whether it is or not, like it's like lab leak or China virus or South Africa variant, or this person's

not wearing a mask or that person's didn't get a booster or whatever it is. And as much as the solidarity and stuff like that stuff also gets amplified on Twitter. I don't know. So it's like as much as you have the we're all in this together stuff, you also have the like, it's all it's all it's all this person's fault. Let's keep this person. Yeah, that's true.

I don't know. I'm big on the solidarity in the long run, making it better. And it just seems like with all of that, I mean, it's just like I'm officially stopping bitching about 2020. Like I'm done. But does it make, okay, okay. That's sort of like, that's what I was curious about. Does this, just knowing that people in 536, I mean, it's like, does it make you feel better about the last two years to know that in 536 it was a much worse year? It doesn't make me better so much as it makes me think, oh, like, there are more floors to fall through here. Like, we could fall, we have longer to fall.

Like, I don't know if that makes me feel better to know that, but it definitely makes me not feel worse. Okay. Because I'm saving the worst feelings for when, if and when it does get worse. That's fair. I just wanted to say what I, what you have left me with about knowing about that year.

I just feel grateful I can go see my shadow. And, like, that's what I'm going to take the year ahead. That's what I'm going to take into the year ahead is like, well, if I can see my shadow, that means there's enough sun to just enjoy the basic warmth of that. And there's ground beneath me that is not lava. That's not lava. So going into the next year, at least we've got shadows and bread

and ground to stand on. Yeah. Do you guys remember my question? That was last year. I know. Old times. But do you remember what I got a little hung up on? Music. Or I just couldn't.

You were excited to see if. So before we leave you, one more thing, because after Latif hit us with the horrors of that year, I was left with this question that just kept eating at me. So a little while later, I called them both back up to add just one last little postcard from the year 536. Yeah. What was your question specifically? Was it, Did the misery create a new genre? You know, my question was really just what was music like then? You know, what kind of music were people making and hearing that would have carried them through?

What did it actually sound like? So I did a little digging. Hello? And I found someone who had a pretty interesting answer to that question, at least for one corner of the world. Should I call you Cantor Sayum or Mogus? No, it's Mogus. Mogus. So Mogus Sayum, he is a cantor in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, lives in Virginia now, but he grew up in Ethiopia. And some of the musical traditions of his church, songs he sings literally every week.

He says come from right around the 536 time in what was then the kingdom of Aksum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in fact, he told me about one particular guy. Saint Yared, who according to tradition was the person writing all this music. Now, we don't know the extent to which the dust veil of 536 affected this area, and there is debate over the historical person Yared. But according to Moges' tradition, it was right around the year 536 that Yared composed a brand new book of hymns called Mawasset.

And what are the songs in that book about? Mawasset. Yeah. And what are the songs in that book about? Mawasset. Mawasset is when somebody dies. We sing songs about it. It's like a book of songs for the dead? Yeah. Could you sing me just a little bit so I could hear? Oh, right now?

It's okay. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. Now again, it's impossible to know exactly how the chronology of these songs line up with the year 536, and also even how much of Yared's story is real or apocryphal. But what does seem likely is that if you were to walk into a church in Ethiopia about 1,500 years ago and you were mourning someone, this is the kind of music that may be sung to you to honor that loss. Wow.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. All right. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Have a great, I hope, you know, happy new year, not Ethiopian new year, but boring old Gregorian new year. You too. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. This episode was produced by Simon Adler with sound and music from Simon Adler and Jeremy Bloom. Special thanks to Dallas Abbott, Matthias Nordvig, Joel Gunn, and reporter Anne Gibbons,

whose article in Science on 536 got me interested in this in the first place. Thanks also to Daniel Jacob, Kay Chalamet, Jackie Phillips, and Maclete Hedero, who is a fabulous singer-songwriter with a deep connection to St. Yared. I highly recommend you go check out her music. That's Macliet Hedero. If, by the way, you want to actually hear the conversation that Lulu and Jad and I were supposed to have about our favorite things from the last year, well, that is actually going up right after this to our lab members only feed.

The lab. And it's a fun conversation. I was so excited to share my little finds of the year with you. So if you do want to hear it, just join the lab. Head over to radiolab.org slash the lab to sign up. Check it out. See if it's for you. Radiolab.org slash the lab.

Thank you for listening. This is Radiolab. More light, non-catastrophic stories coming up from us soon and all through the next year, whatever it may bring. Hi, this is Lauren Bartram calling from

San Diego, California. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. Science Reporting on Radiolab is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science. Radiolab was created by Jada Boomerrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasir are

our co-hosts, Susie Lechtenberg is our executive producer, and Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, W. Harry With help from Tanya Chawla and Sarah Sonbach, our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Adam Chabot.