Throughline - Throughline Presents: Louder Than A Riot

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

Louder Than A Riot breaks down how hip-hop history is told. Who gets to be remembered and who gets left out? Decades before hip-hop's current renaissance of women rappers, there was MC Sha-Rock. Despite her influence on future generations, her contribution to the craft of hip-hop is not widely known. In this episode, we break down legacy: who gets to leave one in hip-hop and who gets left out.This week, we're bringing you an episode from Louder Than A Riot's newest season, dedicated to examining who hip-hop marginalizes, and how misogynoir — the specific racist misogyny against Black women — is embedded into the fabric of the culture that we love.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. Hey everyone, it's Ramteen. And Rand. Ever since we worked on our episode about the history of house music, we've been thinking a lot about what other musical stories have been erased from the record because we know we've only just scratched the surface on them. Exactly. And that's why we were so excited to dive into the second season of NPR's Louder Than Riot.

They're going deep into the history of how hip-hop, a genre rooted in uplifting unheard voices, has policed and silenced women and queer artists, and how these artists have fought back. This week, we're bringing you a special bonus episode from their new season. But before we roll the tape, we want to take a beat and talk with the show's creators, hosts, and our friends, Sidney Madden and Rodney Carmichael, about the making of Louder Than a Riot. Hey, guys. What's up, y'all?

What's up, y'all? So good to have you with us. No doubt. Thanks for having us. So I want to start off with the tagline for this new season, how the double standard became hip hop standard. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means and what's in store for listeners this season. So coming off of the first season of Louder Than a Riot, our tagline was rhyme and punishment in America. And going into season two, we really wanted to expand what that meant. Everything in our show has to do with music, hip hop culture, and the access of societal shifts. And as hip-hop is coming up on its 50th birthday, we really wanted to look inward and see who hip-hop internally marginalizes. And in that case,

it's very much some of its most innovative players, women, queer artists, those read as women. So for the second season, we are really trying to interrogate how the double standard, the sexist, misogynistic, homophobic double standard became basically par for the course or for the sake of the culture within hip hop. So what's something that you all learned making the show that surprised you and that you really want audiences to take away understanding? You know, it's funny. We used to get that question a lot in season one. What surprised you? And I mean, you know, that season being about mass incarceration and its disproportionate impact on Black communities, communities of color.

I was always like, I i mean i didn't learn anything new what did you learn interviewer you know um but but this season being the uh the resident cishet dude on the on the podcast i think um i was definitely open to learning a lot more. I mean, obviously, you know, I have an understanding of how deeply ingrained a structural level, on a personal level, um, really impacts, impacts artists and impacts the art form and the culture, you know, as, as it's so often said, I think was really, was really kind of eyeopening. And in terms of something that i want people to take away we have this kind of uh this kind of structure this season that you know every episode we unveil a new rule you know it's kind of like biggie had the 10 crack commandments i don't know maybe you could

call these like the 10 whack commandments or something we We haven't really given a name for them. But the point is, every rule is a rule that women and queer artists come up against within hip hop, in some ways, have attempted to break these rules. But they're really rules that marginalize a lot of people within the culture. And I think that structure, hopefully it really makes it jump out for people. And I think and hope makes you kind of addicted to seeing what rule is going to come next. We're about to feature an episode called Historical Memory, which obviously is a topic for us as a show on ThruLine that we take on. But also personally, as like what would now be considered an old school hip-hop head i guess

that's what i count as now i've always been i've been waiting for this episode from y'all because i think that as a storytelling art form particularly rap is it's so much about storytelling there's a lot of capturing of what history is and the way we capture how we remember the past is a very important part of the art form and And I thought that was a really nice thing about this episode, that layer of you hear one story, but underneath that story is another bigger story about how we remember things as humans, but also in the culture, in hip hop culture. And you used the story of the first woman on wax, basically, women MC on wax, Shaw Rock, to tell that story. And I'm interested why you decided to pick her

and why you think her story is so important to understand when it comes to historical memory and hip hop. And I would love to hear your answer from both. We'll go with Sydney first, but I would also hear what you think, Rodney. Why was her story so important to tell when it came to this? I think it was imperative to tell MC Shah Rok's story as

the first prominent female MC, because this episode, which tackles the rule, the unwritten rule, and we are just, you know, tongue in cheek calling it baby girl, your only funky is your last cut, because it's really a meditation on legacy. Who gets afforded a legacy, who gets denied a legacy, and who determines legacy in a predominantly male space. And, you know, surprisingly, unsurprising, it's men. And so with us, with hip hop being this huge, gargantuan, influential cultural export that America has, we're living in a time that a lot of people are calling a renaissance for women in rap. But that's actually a revisionist, a statement of revisionist history, because women have always been in hip hop, like coursing through the veins of hip-hop from the beginning.

And MC Shaw Rock is literally living proof of that. She's the first woman to be signed to a record label as part of her group, the Funky Four, Funky Four Plus One More. She's the first female rapper to ever be seen on national TV when the Funky Four made their debut on Saturday Night Live in 1981. And chronicling and capturing those moments, those firsts are so important because otherwise in a very crowded space, her story would be erased. And there's been a lot of erasure.

There's been a lot of diluting of what her contributions have been in the grand scheme of hip hop, in the art of emceeing overall. So what we're really doing with this episode is excavating that talent and that influence and charting where hip hop is because of MC Shawrock. I love that point. Rodney? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, like you said, we're we're 50 years in this year and I'm I'm one of those old school hip hop cats, too, you know. And that's the crazy thing, like really researching and reporting this story. I learned stuff that I did not know about Shah Rukh. I mean, I had honestly I had barely only even just heard her name. I knew the name. I did not have a clear sense of understanding that, you know, she was this huge first within within the culture. And I also didn't really understand like how much she came up against how much she tackled to be a first. Exactly. Exactly. And so just really getting into her story, finding out about, you know, being the first hip hop act to be on Saturday Night Live and what was going on behind the scenes of that performance is like a huge thing that, you know, is kind of mind blowing, especially when you think about how something like that is treated today.

I don't want to give it away because, you know, hopefully y'all going to listen to this episode and find out for yourselves. But yeah, it's crazy. It's mind blowing. And I'm so glad that I got to, you know, learn this story even through telling it, you know? Well, absolutely. They're going to hear it right now. We're going to throw out of the episode right now. But thank you both so much for joining us and sharing that insight. I mean, it's such a good episode and we just really appreciate y'all coming on and talking it through with us.

We appreciate y'all having us. Thank you. We appreciate you giving us this space and this platform. Coming up, the story of Shah Rukh, the first woman emcee from NPR's Louder Than a Riot. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies send spend or receive money internationally and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees download the wise app today or visit wise.com t's and c's apply

a warning before we begin this podcast is explicit in every way. Okay, so yeah. So this is the Bronx Music Heritage Center. It's giving very much Bronx after school, painted piano, drum set, community center vibes, posters everywhere. Good crowd, cute crowd. We're the youngest people in here. Definitely the youngest people in here. I'm here with my producer, Mano Sandarisen, to see a Bronx hip-hop legend. There's a small crowd in the community center.

Grandmaster Kaz of the Cold Crush Brothers is cutting it up on the turntables. As we make the rounds to get a sense of who's here, we see an older white man in the front row. What's your name? Charles Telleran. And what do you know about Shawrock? I was really into hip-hop, but I got into it later. I didn't know about her.

I thought Shante was the first, but Shawrock was the first. Kaz bays out the music and people start quieting down. The woman of the hour takes the stage. Her name is MC Shah Rokh. We are so happy to have on the stage the first female MC in the world. Say word. Word. Shah Rokh. Shah's got on big shades, gold hoop earrings, and a black leather jacket.

The way she commands the room, you can definitely tell she was raised in the Bronx. I was the first female MC to help move hip-hop culture with little or no resources. I set the blueprint. And I say that humbly, but y'all gotta know thebly But y'all gotta know the truth Y'all gotta know the truth Especially when we're talking about the Bronx Especially when we're talking about the history of the Bronx Y'all gotta know the truth

There were other female MCs that came out in 1979 I'm the first female MC To have a record deal Authentic female MC to have a record deal The first female MC on national television Saturday Night Live. Yeah. I've got some more, but I'll take some questions.

But hold on. If you haven't heard of MC Shaw Rock, member of the Funky Four plus one more and the first female MC, you're not alone. There's some specific reasons why. See, some people get erased from history, but Shaw was never in it to begin with. Part of the reason was because she was laying the foundations for hip-hop

before it was even really being documented. Yeah, but the bigger reason is because she was treated like an accessory and an afterthought. This season is about how hard it is to be a woman in rap today. But imagine what it must have felt like to be a woman doing it in the genre's infancy. Now, Shawrock was no stranger to the spotlight during her heyday. In 1981, she and her group, the Funky 4 Plus 1, became some of the first MCs to bring hip-hop to the mainstream when they took center stage on Saturday Night Live. The next group are among the best street rappers in the country.

Please welcome my friends from the Bronx, the Funky Four plus one more. That night should have cemented Shaw's legacy, but it didn't. Instead, it led to her group's downfall. They wouldn't talk to me. They didn't want to say anything to me. They was like really fall back. I mean there was really no conversation but like why would you do that

Shawrock, you know? And the reason why Shaw's story is really where all these double standards started. I'm Rodney Carmichael. I'm Sydney Madden. And from NPR Music, this is Louder Than a Riot. Where we confront the double standard that's become the standard.

On every episode this season, we tackle one unwritten rule of hip-hop that affects the most marginalized among us and holds the entire culture back. And one that a new generation of rap refuses to stand for. On this episode, we're breaking down legacy. Who gets to leave one in hip-hop? And who gets left out? From her rap crew rejecting her to a 25-year legal battle, MC Shot Rock takes us through her fight to be remembered.

Rule number two. Baby girl, your only funky is your last cut. All right, Sid, I've been dying to ask you this. Oh, Mike, who is your top five, dead or alive? That's mad hard, but okay. I mean, for me, Missy's on there. Kendrick's on there. Big is on there.

But you know what? You know what always seems so unfair about this question to me? What? It makes me think about all the biases that go into these lists like you know i know of course everyone has their own taste but you're saying it feels like there's something more than taste reflected in these lists yes exactly it's implicit bias that's used as a way to cover up the fact that the people making the list think that men are just overall better at rapping. And if there are any women on the list, it's usually just one token one, you know? And it's always the same usual suspects.

Lauren, Missy, Kim, Nicki. Exactly. But what about Jean Grey or Azealia or Rhapsody or Megan? And that's why reimagining the canon of the greatest MCs takes real work. We talked to somebody who's doing exactly that. When you're thinking about carving out history and the people who are in power, obviously it's men. And men get to tell these tall tales, basically, about what they did. And men get to create history for other people as well. That's Clover Hope, a longtime hip-hop journalist

whose bylines range from XXL and The Source to The New York Times and Vogue. But even as a revered critic, Clover and Miss Shawrock's story was brand new to her. I certainly, even as a hip-hop head who was writing about it for, like, since I was 20 and in it since I was, like, 13. Like, I didn't know a lot of these stories about the young girls

who were part of, like, creating this culture. I knew the date of hip-hop being created and the names of some of the early, you know, like Grandmaster Flash, and I didn't know her name. That was a big motivation for Clover to write The Motherlode, 100 plus women who made hip-hop. It's like a reimagined canon that finally puts women front and center. Shaw Rock is one of the first profiles in The Motherlode. Clover writes that Shaw's considered, one of the first profiles in the motherlode. Clover writes

that Shaw's considered, quote, the first prominent female emcee. Clover says she wanted readers to know Shaw's story because it'd been hidden for so long. And that's the case for many rappers. But for Shaw, the reasons behind that erasure reveal how bias is built into the foundations of hip-hop. I wrote a line in there that I always go back to, which is that history is what a dominant group decides is fact. Shaw herself is a living testament of this. History has been changed over the years, and I see it in hip-hop culture, but I'm not one to allow that to happen. When we called up Sha, she was sitting at her kitchen table in Texas. It's a long way

from the Bronx where she got her start. And back then, Sha wasn't thinking about legacy. She was focused on having fun. Outside, her corner of the Bronx was giving birth to hip-hop. And as a teenager, she discovered breakdancing. She rocked the oversized sweatshirts

and Lee jeans. She was becoming a B-girl. The first person that I saw breakdance was friends of mine, you know, that had went to junior high school with me. You know, they taught me how to breakdance. They taught me what it was to, you know, up-rock, what it was to, you know, just hit the beats, you know, whenever you hear that certain breakbeat. Shaw traveled all over the Bronx, every park jam, every house party, anywhere DJs were spinning breakbeats. The Circles was always male dominated when it came to B-Boys. And to me, you know, as a B-Girl, I was sort of like a tomboy, you know, growing up. And so, you know, when you seen it, I mean, it's just like a feeling that you knew that you had to be a part of. Yeah, something big was happening in the Bronx.

And B-Girling, that was Shia's way in. You know, it just gave you like a feeling like you, I mean, like you could just like take on the world, you know, because it was, I don't know. It was just like a crazy feeling where it was like it just empowered you as a woman. I know it did for me as a young teenager, and I'm quite sure it did it, you know, for, you know, the young guys that was out there at the time. At the time, she'd also been dabbling in poetry, but Shaw wanted to do something bigger with it. She wanted to rap. And in Shaw's day, being a rapper meant being part of a crew. One day, Shaw was stopped by a young man passing out flyers. He said, listen, you know, we're having an audition. Would you want to come and audition

for MC? I said, sure, now, why not? Shaw had to take a bus uptown to the basement of a three-story house where a dude named DJ Breakout and a manager named Jazzy D were conducting the audition. On the bus ride there, she wrote her first rap ever and recited it over and over. And then, standing in front of the manager, Shah Rok went in. I'm Shah Rok and I can't be stopped for all the fly guys who want to hit the top. I could do it for the ones that are weak and strong and I could do it for the ones that are right or wrong. But I'm listed on the column that's classified and I could be your nurse and I'm qualified to talk about respect. I won't neglect. My strategy is for you to see.

So don't turn away by what I say because I'm on, I'm bad when I'm talking to you. And the manager loved it. You know, he was like, yo, you spit fire. The crew liked how she rocked around so much, they named her Shaw Rock, right on the spot. Shaw officially joined up with the Flunky Four in 1978. She was the only girl in the crew, and her presence was felt immediately. What did your male counterparts think of your early raps? I was always a secret weapon. A lot of other groups were scrambling, trying to find female emcees that can be able to deal with Shah Rok. There was really no competition during that time, especially for Shah Rok.

That's Raheem, another original member of the Funky Four. Raheem auditioned for the group after Shah had already joined. And with Raheem joining the crew, the Funky Four were locked in. It was KK Rockwell, Keith Keith, Raheem, and MC Shah Rok. Raheem says he always looked at Shah Rok like a sister. And from day one, he respected her technique. Her style, her poise, her delivery. You knew immediately when you heard her, as soon as you heard that this is sharok and she made sure that you knew whether you were a man or a woman if you were an mc that you you couldn't get with her yeah but peep this he also says she served a very specific purpose to the group. With a female in the group,

you know, obviously that's to calm the wolves down. And we needed that during that time period because if we didn't keep the audiences that we entertain in the Bronx during the 70s, there was going to be a problem. There was going to be a shootout. There was going to be a stabbing. Somebody was going to get robbed. Yeah, the Bronx was hip-hop's birthplace for a reason. The earliest rap crews originated from gang culture, and sometimes those ties bled over into the party. So basically, Shaw was seen as a dope MC,

but also seen as a token, even by members of her own group. And that was really spelled out when the group had some lineup changes and rebranded as the Funky 4 Plus 1 More. And guess who was the plus one? So why did they call it Funky 4 Plus 1 instead of Funky 5? Like, what was the plus one? Because that seemed to differentiate you as you know as being like the woman on there i think the reason why my manager did do it is because you know he he didn't want to uh have like the furious five or the or the the furious uh or the funky five

or whatever he just wanted you know me to be stand out so when they say the plus one you know it's like okay we have the funky four but we got somebody else the plus one, you know, it's like, okay, we have the funky four, but we got somebody else, the plus one. Plus one could mean you're the most important member, but it could also mean you're a footnote. But it was Shawrock whose innovations helped the funky four stand out and laid the foundation for where rap was going next. You got to understand, rap, it had been around for a minute, but still sounded damn near prehistoric at the time. 78 was the critical and the most important year of MCs within hip hop culture, because that was the year that the MCs set the example of how you may see an MC rhyming today. Because the MCs were not rhyming like that. They were not rhyming in the format,

you know, and I was a part of the MCs that made that format for future MCs. And I should say that I was the female MC that helped make that format for the future MCs. People were bumping these tapes, listening to the blueprint of rap. It must have been like stumbling upon a new language, one that was made just for you. Discovering new pathways for sound. With every breakbeat and 16-bar verse, these originators were laying down a new framework for music. The possibilities were endless, and Sha played with all of them. My manager, he went and found out how to buy this

instrument and it was called the echo chain. And so whenever I used to say a rhyme or I would say like, Shaw, rock, rock, rock, rock, rock, he'll put the echo on it. Rock, rock, rock, rock, rock, rock. Or when I'll say, yes, yes, Shaw. Yes, Shaw y'all yes y'all yes y'all it would repeat every last word of my rhyme that I would say now this is the way we whine and dine and at the same time mess with your mind on the same identical beat one time as we possess the beat that'll make you and I became so synonymous with the New York City on cassette tapes. When I was rhyming in an echo chamber, people was like, OK, let me run out and get this echo chamber. People all throughout the city caught wind of what Shaw was doing.

Even guys who would eventually pop up all over those all time goat lists. So I hit a funky four plus one. I heard that. And then on that record was this girl. And that's DMC of Run DMC, one of the most influential rap groups of all time. And since it was a girl, the voice was so distinctive. Stronger, more grounded, more versatile, more unique, more impressive than all of the dudes that I had heard up to that point. It was just a different energy and they were all switching off and rapping. But when it got to the part where they said, Sha Rock, don't stop. Just turn on your mic and you're ready to rock. And this person, I don't want to just say girl, this person just went,

when the sun don't shine, the rain don't stop, but we got sound. It called punk rock. And just get up out your chair, there's a half a foot. We're two DJs, fuck it, fuck it. We're one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. We want you to know,

we are the ones with the magic show. We're two DJs, five MCs, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. I heard her rhyming over the breakbeat Seven Minutes of Funk. And it was just the craziest thing that I ever heard. And I heard a lot of people do it, but there was something about the way Shaw Rock delivered her rhymes

that was just the prototype to be... She was already dominant. The echo chamber just made her invincible. Shaw's influence can be heard all over those Run-D.M.C. records, like Run's House from their album Tougher Than Leather. So Shaw Rock has real influence on the art and science of MCing. But as the Funky Four plus one more were about to get their big break and introduce hip hop to the rest of America, she was about to see how being that plus one could be a minus. I'm your host, Amy G. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels,

offering over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand-selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. By 80, we were signed to Sugar Hill Records, you know, in June of 80. And with that said, our first song that we put out with Sugar Hill Records, we'll call That's The Joint. So Shy Rock was the funky four plus one secret weapon.

And when Sugar Hill Records got hip to him, the CEO of the label, Sylvia Robinson, latched on to Shawrock's talents and her innocence. I was 17 going on 18, but the crazy thing about it is that my mother didn't even sign my contract for me. My sister, she wasn't my legal guardian, but she signed my contract for me because I wanted to do it so bad. But, yeah, I was 17. I was 17 at the time, 17 going on 18 at the time that I signed to Shiggy Hill Records. Since Shaw was underage, she had a sister sign, but she didn't want her mom to talk her out of it. So wait a minute. Was your sister signing? Was that was that legal? No. They didn't care. Okay. Of the strength of That's The

Joint, Sylvia Robinson sent the group out on their first tour. They were each promised to make $500 a show. What Sylvia Robinson did with this first Sugar Hill tour is that she wanted everybody, you know, that was under her label at the time. She wanted to take us on like this major tour around the world, you know, to be able to, you know, let people see what Sugar Hill Records was doing. And so the idea was great. I mean, we hit every major city that you could imagine. Every arena, every place that we played at was sold out. When you go into places like out when you go into places like wisconsin you go into places like chicago florida you know places that we never even been before accepted you know rap within hip-hop like it was like like it was something new to them they were

going crazy you know it's like they they treated us like we were like the Jacksons. I was like, listen, you know what? We made it. People are loving what we do. Something that we created. And as the tour was coming to a close, the Funky 4 Plus One got another call from Sylvia Robinson. Miss Robinson called us out, you know, on tour and say, Saturday Night Live want y'all to come and perform. Debbie Harry of Blondie was set to host and perform on the show, and she wanted to feature a special guest.

And we were told the reason why she wanted us as opposed to Grandmaster Flash, the Furious Five, or the Sugar Hill Gang, is because they had a female. And the fact that we were young and innocent looking. Now this was the secret weapon in action. Having Shy in the group was opening the door for the Funky Four. But if being Sugar Hill's first lady was paying off for her group, it was low-key pissing off the label's other acts. Everybody and their mamas was mad,

but us, on that tour bus. Groups were mad. The other groups was mad. They was furious because they were not the ones that got chosen to appear on Saturday Night Live. That's why when the tour ended and the tour bus pulled up to Sugar Hills parking lot, fights broke out.

You know, it just went crazy and left after that. Yup, the Funky 4 Plus one and the Furious 5 threw hands. You remember that fight? Yeah, yup, vividly. By this time, Raheem had left the Funky 4 Plus 1 and joined their rivals, the Furious 5. He was in the parking lot that day too, just like Sha. I had nothing to do with the beef between the Funky 4 Plus 1 and the Furious 5.

The person from the Furious 5 who was physically aggressive towards the Funky 4 Plus 1 was Cowboy, rest in peace. Do you remember what Cowboy said in the moment? How did he spark it off? I don't remember what was said. I just remember he went after little Rodney C. physically and, you know, punched him in the head or the face or something. It's so much stuff happened within those last couple of days as far as animosity, you know, and fights and arguments and all that stuff that went down. And so it came to head, you know, in the parking lot of Sugar Hill Records.

And you might be thinking, what does this have to do with Sha? Well, nothing. And everything. To all the other groups, she wasn't just seen as competition. She was now a threat, just by being there. But the Funky Four plus one more couldn't dwell on that rap beef. Because a few days later, their big night on SNL arrived. Take us back to like walking to that studio for the first time. What did it look like? What did it feel like? It was like, okay, we're going to be on TV. We still don't know the impact of being the first authentic hip hop group to ever, you know, be on TV.

All we know is that you're going to see us on TV and that's it. And while the Funky Four sat in the green room waiting for their performance, they watched the show live, the Valentine's Day special, as SNL's newest black cast member, Eddie Murphy, popped out in a Cupid costume during Debbie Harry's monologue. Don't you just love him? They love me. Towards the end of the show, Debbie Harry introduces the Funky Four. What she said was, I've got the best street rappers from the Bronx.

Please welcome my friends from the Bronx, the Funky Four plus one more. On stage, you can see the crew's arms locked around Shawrock, like she's in a cage or a cocoon almost. And then the guys, they roll off to the left and right, revealing their style. Now Shaw's dressed differently than the guys who've got on tight maroon cardigans and Kangos. She's rocking a side ponytail,

jeans stuffed in her white cowboy boots, and a pink blouse. Standing side by side, the funky 4 plus 1 kick off their smash hit. Shaw weaves in and out of the other verses perfectly. We got rockin' in the heart And all the things we do You can call it art We're back We're slick We're doin' it We're gonna rock this record And don't you forget Ah, that's the joint Uh, uh, uh Because in the rock and see

Is the melody Help me rock and sing in harmony You gotta understand You're hearin' the records You're hearin' the tapes And stuff like that And then you wake up And somebody says

Yo, they was on TV last night That was the life-changing moment So I can imagine And then you wake up and somebody says, yo, they was on TV last night. That was the life changing moment. So I can imagine the older folks seeing that going, OK, what the hell is this? We're not sure we don't hate it. And then there's the people that just hated it. That's the number one iconic moment in hip hop. This was one of the first times a hip-hop group was nationally televised. SNL was likely the biggest stage rap had ever been on at that point.

But DMC and all the SNL viewers at home, they didn't realize that that night, Shaw was carrying her own plus one. I was pregnant at the time. I think I was like about four or five, six months pregnant, something like that. And so I was like hurting. I was feeling kind of crazy and all of that stuff. My stomach was hurting. And listen, this is nothing like Rihanna doing her big reveal of her baby bump at the Super Bowl.

Shaw was doing her best to try and hide her bump and how she was feeling. As she gave her best effort, you could tell from the recording she's stiff and slow with her movements. That's why you would see I would stand in a certain way, you know, and just look forward and focus out, you know, and so I was like, let me blow it, let me just get through this, you know, and I'll tell them tomorrow. This was the highest point of the group's career so far, and she didn't want to blow it. Because I just wanted to get through the television show. I didn't want, you know, them to feel a certain kind of way, you know. So I waited until the next day.

And I told them one by one. I told Rodney because I was closer to him first. I told him first. And, of course, he went and he told the other guys, you know, within the group. And it was like crickets after that. Nobody in the group had shouts back. They was like really fall back. I mean, there was really no conversation, but like, why would you do that, Shah Rukh? And then it was like they were distanced. The way Shah tells it, the guys felt her pregnancy would hold them all back.

They felt like it would hinder everything that we had moving forward. Shah Rukh's pregnant, it's going to slow us down. And so they were very upset. Even though Raheem wasn't a member of the group anymore, he says he relates to how the rest of the Funky Four reacted to Shah's pregnancy at the time. They were concerned about their livelihoods, you know, at that time. And I could certainly understand that if I were a member of their group at that time, I probably would have voiced the same concern or maybe not.

At this point, the other members of her crew were treating Shy more like a liability than an asset. Her pregnancy was clearly a problem in their eyes. So they were very protective of me. And I think when it's all said and done, they probably felt like, now, if I covered you, then you cover us. Make sure that we're good. Make sure that we're ready to take the whole world by storm.

Like you betrayed them or something? You could say that. You could say that. You could say that. But do you ever think about the double standard of that? Like how you're choosing to do something with your own body could be a betrayal to them? Like how could that be? I didn't look at it at that time. At the time, you know, as far as like betrayal,

I kind of got it. You know, because not the fact that I betrayed them, but the fact that I love hip hop so much that I could have, you know, thought about, you know, I, there could have been other ways to, you know, to do it or other ways that I could have made sure that that wasn't the right timing. That was a decision that I made. I mean, it was upon me. I wasn't going to do anything else to terminate, you know, the situation. And I just had to deal with it. But after the pregnancy, that's when things went downhill for the Funky 4 Plus family.

How did it feel to have, like, have such little support from them, from your crew members, from Rodney and everybody, once you told them? You know what? I've never really blamed them for it, you know, because I look at it like this. You know, we were all young. We were in our teenagers. And so where you expect for somebody, you know, maybe much older, you know, to be understanding, I think that they were dealing with their own feelings as well, especially being young. Shaw gives the guys a lot of grace in hindsight. Maybe more than they even deserve. Because even if Shaw won't say it, what her group members did was messed up.

They iced her out. And things wouldn't ever be the same after that. Shaw was scared too. She didn't ever be the same after that. Shaw was scared, too. She didn't know where to go from here. I felt like, for me, I was at the height of my career as well. You know, and I was more so nervous, not because I didn't have the support, you know, of my family, but so much nervous to know that it would, you know, put a damper on me moving forward. Even though Shaw was struggling to balance everything and get right with the guys,

the funky 4 Plus 1 was still up. That SNL performance had gone so well that Debbie Harry wanted them to sign to the same label her group Blondie was on. Only one problem. Sylvia Robinson and Sugar Hill, they weren't having it. And it would be years before Shaw could take control of her own career. By 1983, just two years after the big SNL debut, the funky 4 Plus 1 had split up. Some members joined up with other crews, but Chiroc, she had different responsibilities.

There were times, right, you know, where there was no income, no money coming in, no money coming in, nowhere. So once you had your daughter, like, how were you able to take care of her? My mom, my mom. And it was so crazy about it, right? Because here it is, we in New York City. People are hearing our songs. They're looking at us like, yo, what's going on? Y'all should have records out of the Bronx. Where your money at? After SNL and the success of That's The Joint,

you'd think she'd be getting paid. But after the funky 4 Plus 1 disbanded, Shaw was struggling to even see a dime of her royalties. At the time, she couldn't figure out why because she thought her label boss, Sylvia Robinson, had her back. Ms. Robinson promised me that she was going to look out for me, especially for the fact that she became the godmother of my daughter. She Christian Christian my daughter at two months old you know she came up to the Bronx in her rose wars and Christian my daughter at two months old so I believe that

she was going to look out for me you know for all the money of the songs and all the things songs that I made I honestly believe that if she didn't look out for nobody else, she was going to look out for me because she Christianed my daughter as her God daughter. And so with that said, I just thought about, yeah, I just thought about the ways that I can get back into it. Yeah, it's really deep. Shah trusted Sylvia to do right by her. She promised us that she was going to pay us.

She promised that she was going to allow us to record as many songs as we want. And she was going to ensure that all our fruits of labor would come to fruition, where we would be able to monetize off of the culture that we created. And she promised us that, but it didn't happen. And unfortunately, this wasn't nothing new to Shaw. Like, remember how't nothing new to Shaw. Like, remember how they were supposed to get paid $500 each per show? So when she came out there on tour, we was like, you know, what's going on? Our money is short.

You know what I'm saying? And she gave us this whole story. And so everything erupted. You know, she gave us, one time we had asked her for an advancement and she gave us like, we thought we was going to get like $6,000, $7,000. You know what I'm saying? She gave us like $1,500, you know, and we never seen no money again. Black musicians have been getting robbed by the record industry since the beginning of time. But it hits different when the label owner stealing your money is family. And her being your daughter's godmom, I mean, she had to see you struggling.

I lived in the Bronx, and she lived in a mansion in New Jersey, in Englewood. She didn't see it. She may have known, but she didn't see it because she didn't come to the Bronx. Sylvia Robinson passed in 2011, so we weren't able to talk to her for this story. Sylvia Robinson had this reputation for just kind of like really screwing over these groups financially. That's Clover Hope again. Women can be vultures and also play a role in misogyny or play a role in this larger capitalist system and downplay other women. And so it's not limited to just men doing it. Shah Ragh did everything she could to steer clear of Sugar Hill Records.

She formed a new group called Us Girls, hoping the label wouldn't get its hands on whatever money came in. Her new crew even appeared in the classic film Beat Street. But at every turn, Sha was bound by her contract with Sylvia. Basically, she was in a 360 deal before those were even a thing. This is the reason why, like in 1983, I said, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to allow no one to pimp me and take everything away from me that I love. So I fell back and I never recorded again for a long period of time, simply because I felt the way for me to handle this was to regroup. Let my contract

run out. I don't record. I don't do anything that anybody can take anything away from me again. But even then, there wasn't a roadmap for an unsigned woman MC in hip-hop, trying to turn a passion into a profitable long-term career. Shaw's career hit a glass ceiling. Eventually, hip-hop's memory of the first female MC started to fade, too. Shaw moved on with her life. Until 10 years later, when she was in a record store and spotted a Sugar Hill

compilation on sale for $100. I'm talking to myself, I say, wow, this is, they selling the song and I ain't getting paid from it. And I went on this rampage to try to find an attorney, you know, to recoup my money. Shaw wasn't making money, but clearly somebody was. Sheesh, I would have gone on a rampage too. She decided not to take it lying down. So she rounded up all her old label mates. I went to the Furious Five. Me and Raheem was very close. I said, get all the members together, you know, and come in with me on this lawsuit. He got them together. I got the funky four together. And later on, a group named Crash Crew, you know, came on. And so we filed against Sylvia Robinson and shook her record.

In 1997, Shaw and her former label mates filed the suit. They were seeking royalties as well as other fees from Sylvia, her husband Joe Robinson, and their next of kin, who are now running the company. And this fight dragged on for decades. The Robinsons were uncooperative and eventually both Joe and Sylvia died before a final settlement was reached. And finally, you know, to make a long story short, after all these years, we finally, you know, were able to revert everything back to us. Now, Shah and Rahim wouldn't disclose to us how much money they got. But for Shah, it was never just about the money. This was about fighting for herself, for her fellow artists,

and really for her own legacy. What does it feel like to get your royalties back, get literally get the credit for your craft back after all this time, after all this time of being doubted and robbed? It feels like I've been vindicated, you know. It feels like that I am still here, you know, in flesh to be able to see the outcome, you know, and my kids, you know. And it's so crazy about it because I think that my kids know that I am a strong woman, you know, and they saw everything that I went through, you know, at that given birth. They heard it over the years. They heard me on a telephone talking to the attorneys. They heard my passion to other emcees, you know, they know how I feel about hip hop culture and to be vindicated by and to

allow my kids to see that no matter what you believe in, whether or not somebody do you wrong or not, if you believe that what you're doing is right, then you go the distance. Other artists have tried to file against Sugar Hill, but Shawrock, she was the first to successfully get everybody paid. Yeah, and that's a fight that's just as historic as being the first female MC. It's a claim to fame nobody else can make. Do you feel like there's been times when you weren't respected for your craft? And do you feel respected for your craft now? I used to, you know, think about, you know, not being respected in the beginning, you know, and so I learned not to take it personal.

And so instead of me, you know, feeling like I was disrespected because people didn't know who Shah Rukh was, I took a different approach. I started telling people my story and will continue to tell people my story. And the more that I tell a person a story and they say, oh, wait, that didn't happen, then prove it didn't. I can prove that it did. And so, no, I learned to not take it personal, but to be personal and let people know who I am and what I meant and how I was instrumental

in helping to move this culture forward. In spaces like the Bronx Music Heritage Center, Shaw gets to define her own legacy. But I just want to say, before I get started about Shaw Rock, I just want to say, y'all, we are the Bronx. We created a multi-billion dollar business back in the 1970s. You know what I'm saying? A multi-billion dollar business. I'm proud of that. Even though I have never received or recouped the money, as well as Grandma Cass and Melly Mel and Grand Wizard Theodore, we are still proud to have created this billion dollar business. Because you know what?

When it's all said and done, it was never about the money for us. It was about the heart and soul of the culture, the B-girl, the B-boy, the MC, the graffiti artist, the DJ right here in the Bronx. So let's give a round of applause for the Bronx and everybody that represents hip hophop culture to the fullest. At the end of her talk, Shaw Rock starts answering questions from fans in the crowd.

Thank you for your contribution to the culture. Because of your voice, at an early age, you planted a seed that women were equal with men right on the mic. Hearing you as a child told me women could do it too, and that has helped me develop as a man and be in those spaces with women. Because if Shy Rock was in the spaces with the funky 4 Plus 1 more, women could be in any spaces. So I'd like to thank you for that. Thank you so much.

We talk more to this guy after. He calls himself Brother North of Division X. And he says he was one of the people who stayed up late to watch Shaw rock on SNL. I had never been up past like 11 o'clock. When the news came on, it was time to go to sleep. And I begged

to be able to see it. And my mom's let me stay up. And somehow I was able to catch it at the beginning and fell asleep. The event was a small crowd, but Shaw's fans just keep giving her flowers. Like she said, I never realized I was a, I was like, yo, one for the girl. We never even saw it as like, yo, she's a girl, I'm seeing it. It was never even a question because she rocked harder than a dude.

You know what I'm saying? And her crew was hard. You know, her crew back then, her crew was hard. They was tough. They was dope. They was well respected. One woman in the crowd named then, her crew was hard. They was tough. They was dope. They was well-respected. One woman in the crowd named Keena became an instant fan of Shaw that night. Did you know anything about Shaw Rock before tonight?

Absolutely nothing. Okay, and what did the talk teach you? So that she was the first female emcee coming out of the Bronx, or in general. And that was interesting. I'd never heard her name before. And for her to have such an influence on what hip-hop is today, and for me to never know who she is, you know, says a lot about storytelling and why it's important. So I am very happy I came out tonight. Yeah, when you say says a lot, what do you mean?

Well, you know, the narrative that goes in the media is like whoever shouts loudest gets heard. And I think she's now starting to get the props that she's due, right? And it's not because she didn't do the right things, it's just people didn't know who she was. So, you know, you have to go to events like this to start finding out the history and the truth and, you know, reading up on things and digging deep to not just accept what's being told

and, you know, mainstream media. And then something happens that wasn't on the schedule. GrandmasterCast throws on a funky beat. Shaw hypes up the crowd. Out of nowhere, she breaks into a verse. I'm on the right track. When you hear a rhyme from the other females, push it to the top to get clientele. Shaw rock and I aim to please. You know I did it for the fellas and the young ladies. I keep my head in the air, my ass in the air.

Then Shaw invites random fans on stage to rap with her. It's a whole sniper. I rock the mic like a rockin' fella, even on a acapella. I break the sun out and get low for my people. I make it all with her. The best thing's in Twitter. If you think not, I think you should reconsider. Everybody's swarming the stage. Let's go, brother. Are you ready?

Let's go. Okay. Okay. Let's go. In this room, in the birthplace of hip-hop, Shawrock is remembered. But legacy isn't just about being seen. It's about how you're seen. And ultimately, whose lens the world is looking through.

Someone always has something to say. Everybody has a comment on your body. It's like, if you're natural, they're talking about it. If you have surgery done, they have something to say. It's just always something to say. People think it's fun. It's like, woohoo, let's all join in

and bash on the black woman. Kiki, kiki, kiki. It's something about the woman's body specifically that really triggers people. Rappers Dream Doll, Baby Tate, and Doji. Take us through rule number three.

Next time on Louder Than A Riot. Louder Than A Riot is hosted by me, Rodney Carmichael, and Sidney Madden. This episode was written by myself, Sidney, and Mano Sundaresan. And it was produced by Mano Sundaresan. Our senior producer is Gabby Bogarelli. And our producers are Sam J. Leeds

and Mano Sundaresan. Our editor is Saraya Shockley. And our engineer is Gilly Moon. Our senior supervising producer is Cher Vincent. Our interns are Jose Sandoval, Teresa Shia, and Pilar Galvan. And the NPR execs are Keith Jenkins, Yolanda Sanguini, and Anya Grunman. Original theme by Casa Overall. Remix by Suzy Analog.

And the scoring for this episode was provided by Suzy Analog and Casa Overall. Our digital editor is Jacob Ganz. Our fact checkers are Sarah Knight and Jane Gilvin. If you want to learn more about MC Shaw Rock's story, check out her autobiography, Luminary Icon, the story of the beginning and end of hip-hop's first female MC. If you like this episode and you want to talk back, hit us up on Twitter. We're at Louder Than A Riot. And if you want to email us, it's louder at NPR dot org. From NPR Music, I'm Sydney Madden. And I'm Rodney Carmichael.

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