Throughline - Who is NPR (For)?

Episode Date: June 10, 2021

Who is the media meant to serve? And why does it matter today, arguably, more than ever? 50 years ago, National Public Radio began as a small, scrappy news organization with big ideals and a very small footprint. Over the subsequent years of coverage and programming, NPR has grown and evolved into a mainstream media outlet, with a mission of serving audiences that reflect America. This week, Michel Martin, host of Weekend All Things Considered, talks to us about her time at NPR and the importance of representing all voices in news.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. A quick note before we begin. We're hoping you can take a short anonymous survey that'll help us out by telling us what you like and how we can improve. And we want to hear from everyone, even our new listeners and those who might not have taken one of our surveys before. You can take the survey by going to this address, npr.org slash podcast survey.

Again, that's npr.org slash podcast survey. Thanks. Now on with the show. So, Ron, you know how I absolutely hate my own birthday, right? Yeah. I'm very tempted, though, to just say what your birthday is like so that you get a lot of Twitter messages on your birthday. No, no one's allowed into my birthday. That would be like a line crossing thing. But the thing is, you know that I love other people's birthdays. And you know who just had a big birthday? I think I do. I think I know who you're talking about. Are we talking about NPR?

Yeah, NPR had a big 50-year-old birthday. I guess it's 50 years old now. The big 50, yeah. I know because, you know, there's been a bunch of coverage about this half-century milestone, which, you know, it's a big deal. Yeah, and with veteran NPR journalists

reminiscing about, I mean, what really started as a small, scrappy newsroom. We didn't have any chairs. That was one of the things that was disconcerting. And what it took to put out that first broadcast. From National Public Radio in Washington, I'm Robert Conley with All Things Considered. Which, I gotta say, had some banging theme music.

Come on, dude. You know that slaps. Yeah. That 100% slaps. I'm not going to argue with you there. It's catchy. You know, like, we're a show that's always looking at how we got to where we are. And, you know, naturally, we started thinking about how NPR got to where it is today.

Yeah, like, how does this scrappy outsider newsroom without any chairs become a powerful mainstream news source? And what does that mean for us, for ThruLine, right? Because speaking personally, we both started out as, like, producers producers here and now we host our own show. Right, which I still sometimes can't believe actually happened. Right? Me too. And honestly, we don't really look or sound like traditional NPR hosts. We're young, we're brown, we're from the Middle East, we're immigrants. So for this 50th anniversary, we wanted to do something a little different. So we know you, but we have to do this.

We have to ask you to introduce yourself and what you do. Sure. By bringing in one of our NPR role models. I'm Michelle Martin. I am the host of, the weekend host of All Things Considered, or WOTC, as we say internally. Before hosting WOTC, Michelle made this NPR show called Tell Me More, which was focused on stories of race and identity and really all sorts of topics affecting all types of people in this country and around the world.

Understanding is what it's all about. And the only way to get there is to talk. So that's why we say, tell me more. We both look up to Michelle as someone who's paved a way for us at NPR. Her work has pushed the network to evolve around who tells stories and whose stories get told. And that's where we started our conversation with Michelle. Looking back at a moment in history, how it was and wasn't covered, and how that brought her to NPR. This episode kind of stands out from what we usually do on the show.

Maybe because we really just wanted an excuse to hang out with Michelle Martin. But the result is, I think, a really open conversation about media, why we're in it, and what comes next. Stay tuned. Hi, this is Hannah. I'm calling from Washington, D.C., and you are listening to the one and only ThruLine from NPR. the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally, and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. Okay, Michelle, I want to know why you decided in, I think, 2006, right, to join NPR. Like, what brought you here?

Well, you know, there's a story I can tell and there's a story I can't tell. We want both. I want the story you can't tell. Well, I know you do, but I also would like not to lose my house because like many people in commercial broadcasting, I signed a nondisclosure agreement when I left ABC. It's called a nondisparagement agreement, which is a very common practice that one does. And so I can't tell you the whole of why I left, but here's the part I think I can tell. The anniversary of the Montgomery bus boycott was upon us. And I had thoughts about how I thought this should be covered and the importance of it. And also all of the people whose sacrifice, whose efforts, whose hard work really encouraged in the

face of incredible odds. It's an incredible story. And in recent years, much more has become publicly known about this movement. But at the time, I thought that there was so much of the story that had not yet been told, including Rosa Parks' incredible history prior to the Montgomery bus boycott. I thought this was a great opportunity to share that story. But my views on this were not appreciated. In addition to that, a person who may recall, by the name of John Johnson, he was the founder of Ebony and Jet Magazines,

a hugely significant figure in the life of journalism and in the life of the country. Jet Magazine made the incredibly bold decision to publish the photographs from Emmett Till's casket. You will recall that in 1955, Emmett Till was a teenager, was brutally murdered, tortured to death, you know, for the crime of disrespecting a white woman. You know, there's a whole backstory that shows that that isn't true, but his whole family was basically terrorized because of this. And his mother made the bold decision to have an open casket funeral for him because she wanted the world to see what had happened to her son. But a photographer for one of the Black outlets was able to take pictures, and Jet Magazine made the bold decision to publish these pictures.

But it was terribly important in bringing the brutality of the apartheid South into the public sphere. So he passed away around the same day as a prominent anchor for ABC News. And those of us who felt that John Johnson was also important were unable to get airtime to discuss his legacy, significant airtime. And so I thought to myself, you know what? There has to be a way for me to tell these stories. There has to be a way. There has to be some place that I can tell these stories in a manner that they deserve. And at the time, I had been sort of talking to NPR off and on over the years about various things. And at the time, they actually approached me to contribute to another program that was already on the air. And I'm going to be honest with you, I don't remember what put this in my mind. This is, in my tradition, I would say this was spirit-led because I had no plans when I walked into that meeting. And it wasn't even lunch because NPR was so cheap at that time, they didn't even give you lunch. Like they might have given

you some like club soda or whatever, you know. And I said to them, you know what? I'm no longer interested in being a passenger. I'm ready to drive. So that's what happened. So when you go in that meeting, what do you expect them to say to you? Nothing. And I just was, you know, meet and greet. Hi.

And then you say that. And what happens? They were like, okay. Like, you know, please, you all know how it is. It's like the post office. It takes months to, you know. It's like there was no instantaneous anything, but it emerged over time. And this is why a real rendering of history is important, because people think just like social movements, they think it just sort of happened.

You just arose fully formed. No, after months of discussion, we sort of arrived in the same place and launched Tell Me More. There are so many experiences of people who have been historically marginalized that it makes sense to look at the minority experience, let's say writ large, and that includes religious minorities. That includes women are not a minority, hello, but women in leadership. I mean, if you saw the research at the time showed that women were a fraction of the people ever quoted in news programs as authority figures, as the sort of the subject of the sentence, not the object of the sentence. And also Africa, the Caribbean and Latin America, because these are places in the world that we thought were certainly rising in importance and prominence on the world stage, and yet did not get the kind of international correspondents that NPR had then and continues to have. And we wanted to tap into their experiences.

Right. Because many people in our audience, as I think many people know, our audience, you know, in the early days skewed, you know, like so much of NPR programming, skewed very white. But I would hear from the listeners that these are people who had lived overseas. They were from overseas. Maybe they were in mixed marriages, for example. They were married to people outside of their own culture. They were navigating those things. They were listening to programming that met their interests and experiences.

They were interested in coverage of places that wasn't always like the most terrible thing that happened, but also is the joyous thing that happened or like how people were getting dressed up for World Cup in different countries around the world. Right. Like things of that sort. Like, you know, like what, how, how were people getting ready for World Cup in different places? Like, what were they, what were they doing with people? You know, how are they celebrating these experiences?

Like what kind of music are people listening to? Right. Those are the kinds of things like, and, and, you know, like who are the rising stars in music in Ghana? Like it wasn't war.

It wasn't, you know, war crimes. It wasn't people being, you know, recovering from war, but it was daily life there. It was something that was hugely important to the people living there.

And that's partly what we were trying to, trying to achieve. And I think did achieve. Yeah. I mean, Michelle, did you feel like, because you came from ABC and like, I'm wondering if people around that time were kind of looking at NPR and being like, eh, it's NPR. Like, that's like, you know, was it kind of seen as this kind of off in the corner doing some like oh that's cute you know doing oh that's cute yeah exactly you know like I'm just wondering if like that's how people were thinking about NPR I have no idea because I could care less I mean I honestly I could not answer that because it wasn't like I did a survey I because I could I could honestly

care less what what people I mean, I care what is my goal? Am I fulfilling it? Why am I here? Is my staff happy? Are they fulfilling their goals? Are we achieving what we set out to achieve? That's what I focus on and care about. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that was interesting, we were talking because we're talking in the context of the 50th anniversary. Yeah. I was reading some of the stories about those early days and I wasn't there. So, you know, I don't know. But obviously I know a lot of the people who were there. And I kind of wish I had heard some of those stories sooner because it would have put some of the things that we went through in perspective. For example, it emerged that like Susan Stamberg found out years later that some of the station managers didn't think she should be a host. Like

they didn't like her style. Like they weren't digging her act. And then there was this old chestnut about how women's voices don't carry authority. I mean, and you were always told, in fact, I could tell you when I got into broadcasting, you know, from being in print all those years. And I first went to ABC that, you know, I was told I should try to lower my register and speak out of my diaphragm and all this other business. And I was like, oh, wow. So she found this out like years after the fact. And it was fascinating because it seems like every generation when you try to create something different, you have to hear about why it isn't what the old one was or why it wasn't what was there before. And so you couldn't possibly be right because you're different. And we got a lot of that. It was crazy.

Like, first of all, when Tavis Smiley first came and started the Tavis Smiley show, which had a particular focus on the African-American experience, you know, some of the listeners said, oh, he laughs too loud, which is like, what? And then we very much believed in elevating the lived experience. Like it wasn't just about, I have tremendous respect for, you know, degrees, doctorates and things of that sort. But I had the firm belief that a lot of the lived experience of people who have historically not been the subject of the news, is equally valuable as information, right? Yes, right. And so we were really interested in putting on people on the air who were what you would

call quote-unquote like regular people because we felt their lived experience told a truth that needed to be told. And we used to get a lot of, I can't say the word I want to say, but I'm just thinking of a better word or even the music choices you know that we were using as the sort of what you know the bumpers and teases you know the folks who listen a lot you'll hear there's music choices and we got all this crazy stuff for people talking we npr is classy we don't want to hear that you know ghetto music or something like that. It was just crazy.

I mean, the thing is, Michelle, it's interesting hearing you talk about some of these criticisms because we've gotten some of that, you know, like when we were starting the show, we were like, oh, man, we're going to be experimenting a lot. Are people going to be like ready for this? We're going to be saying our names like as they're meant to be pronounced, you know, um, we're not going to like only bring on experts. And I feel like, I feel like that kind of in some way that thinking started with you, like listening you and tell me more and you know, that era of like, it really, like it's, it's, it's kind of hitting me that like, I hope so. We, we, I think we get, I think we get like more positive than negative feedback about that now.

Well, I appreciate you, but all of us are standing on somebody else's shoulders. And just like Tavis Smiley and Ed Gordon and Farai Chidea, who hosted News & Notes, we're standing on Susan Stamberg's shoulders, at Cokie Roberts' shoulders, and Linda Wertheimer's shoulders. Also, I'm standing on their shoulders, and you are standing on mine, just to keep it real. I mean, you are standing on mine. And I think, because I think part of what we do is that push the door open a bit more to say, you know what, people with accents that are a little unfamiliar to you can have things of value to say. People who don't have a doctorate can have things of value to say. But the other point I want to make is that these people had things to say that were journalistically sound. We are focused on the truth, unlike some other people in the media ecosystem who are all about, what is my ideology and how can I find somebody to say it? The NPR-ness of us is we are rooted in what are the facts?

What is true? But is there a way to tell that truth in a way that might be different or that you can hear that from somebody who you aren't used to hearing it? Or does it have to be filtered through somebody who studied it as opposed to who lived it. After the break, how we decide who and what to cover. Hi, this is Brian C. calling from the San Francisco Bay Area. You're listening to ThruLine from NPR. I just listened to the episode on the Black Panthers.

And as someone growing up here in the Bay Area, I always thought I kind of knew a little bit of everything. But just hearing that episode just really opened my eyes to that whole situation. So I appreciate everything you've done. Keep up the good work and looking forward to hearing more from the fabulous team. Talk soon. Bye. Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, Thank you. to purchase. We left off with Michelle talking about truth, how our focus at NPR is about finding and telling the truth. It sounds simple, but as she said, it's simply not the priority of every journalistic outlet these days. And that's actually nothing new in the media. But telling the truth is mission critical at NPR, National Public Radio, an outlet meant to deliver information to and represent an entire country. But how do you do that? How do you tell the truth? My approach was always that a multiplicity of views and perspectives is how you get to truth,

okay? That's how you get to truth, is a variety of perspectives, a variety of vantage points. I mean, what do we do if we're trying to figure out what happened at a scene where something bad happens? We try to get as many vantage points as possible, right? So why wouldn't we do that with the work that is important? My sense of it was always that the country's changing, that people want different things, and we are meeting a need that they have. And I don't want our whole conversation to be sort of focused on the haters and people who are trying to, you know, but I do find it really important. And one of the things that I feel I live through, and I hope you're living through less, is the sense of entitlement around what stories we should do and how stories should be done. I mean, that is what stands out to me from those early days, is the sense of entitlement. Like, why do you think you

can part your lips to tell me what this is supposed to be. Like, I remember one time I ran into this guy on a plane. It was a lieutenant colonel in the army, and he knew what he, for some, he knew my show. And he said, do you think that Tell Me More talks too much about race? And I said, I don't know. Do you think ESPN talks too much about sports? Because that's what it's about. And if you're not interested in that, like, I'm not, you know, you're not under subpoena. Okay. You can, you know, and he laughed, you know, to his credit, he laughed and, you know, he asked me some questions about, like, he asked me, did I think women belonged in combat? And I said, I have to, I'd have to think about it. I don't know enough

about it. And I said, I'd have to really dig into that issue. I don't feel like I have enough information to make an educated decision. He goes, I like that attitude. That's a good attitude. I said, well, good, then you should be listening to NPR because I'm not telling you what to think. I'm telling you what to think about. And what are some of the important stories of our time? It's about race. It's about religion. It's about demographics. It's about who gets to be prominent, who gets to lead. Recently, there's been some very interesting scholarship out of the University of Chicago who've been analyzing, you know, more than 400 people have been arrested so far for their mob attack on the Capitol. As near as can be determined, about 800 people were involved in actually breaching the Capitol, right? There were some thousands of people at those rallies, but about

800 people are understood from various investigative methods to have actually breached and gone into the Capitol. And so far, about four more, a bit more than 400 of them have been arrested. And a professor named Robert Pape from the University of Chicago has done some, he and his team have done some very interesting analysis. And one of the things that they've discovered is they don't come from the quote unquote reddest of the red states. They come from places that have experienced a lot of demographic change. So what motivated them? You know, obviously, you know, you can't say necessarily a causal effect, but he noticed that one of the predominant drivers was the fact that they came from counties,

in fact, many of them from cities that are experiencing demographic change. And those were the kinds of stories that we did. And so I feel that when NPR embraces projects that look at the world through different eyes, you are giving the public what they truly need. And it's not just a matter of feeling good. It's not just a matter of making people happy. And it's not just a matter of sort of placating different groups. It's a matter of of providing a vital service. And that is what we are here to do.

Yeah, I mean, you know, given the like we launched our show right during the Trump presidency, we have witnessed this polarization. I mean, it's it's so incredibly polarized. And like, I feel like Watsi does such a good job actually of sort of interrogating some of what I see is more ideological reporting that's been emerging, especially during the past presidency. And by ideological reporting, I mean, like, that sort of standard of objectivity of seeking truth, it feels at least like it's become relegated to the minority among journalists, right? Like that's not the goal for a lot of journalists. So like, how do you, how do you still think about objectivity now? Yeah. I see what you're saying. And I don't, I don't want to minimize how difficult it is because it

is very difficult. It's difficult because there are people who, as we see in the current moment, who will promulgate falsehood as if they were the truth, and they will defend it to the last breath, you know. The whole, and they want you to use the conventions of a different era and apply it to them, even though they are not. Right? So they basically want you to be a platform for promulgating their false. I don't even want to say news because of information. It's not information. They want you to promulgate their falsehoods because they believe it because they want to and they want you to promulgate it. And they will say, oh, you're not being fair because you are unwilling to promulgate my lies. Okay? On the other side of it, there are

people who want us to be the anti that, like they want us to basically get up every day and tell, tell the public why these people are wrong and they're stupid and liars. And so, and I just don't find that very helpful. I don't find that very helpful. I can understand why that's satisfying, but, and I can, I recognize that everybody doesn't always agree with my approach and i recognize that it can even be frustrating for some of my colleagues who work closely with me because they're in they get annoyed like if i want to take a step back sometimes and say okay well why do people think that and it's so manifestly obvious to them that that this is nonsense so why aren't we just saying it's nonsense and my approach is to say well what

about the people who aren't convinced yet yeah or what about the people who haven't had a chance to think about that yet? Could we think about them? And I hope that there will always be some room for those folks because, you know, why should everybody have already decided everything or know everything. I feel that there has to be some place where you can find things out without being made to feel stupid. And I'm hoping that we will continue to be that place. After the break, we try to imagine who our audience is. Hi, my name is Mel. I'm calling from the top of Monk's Mound at the ancient city of Cahokia, which is right across from modern-day St. Louis. And if you're interested in history, you should be listening to True Love on NPR. Thank you.

And I think it speaks to like how many, given that, who do you think your audience is on the show you host right now? I'll answer if you tell me who you think your audience is. I want to hear what you guys say about that. Like, who do you think your audience is? I can tell you quick. I think two things. I assume that the audience is my mom. Oh, see, same.

You know, my mom's an immigrant. You know, she's lived here a long time. But, you know, my mom's an immigrant. You know, she's lived here a long time. But, you know, and not a knock on her. She hasn't, her English isn't the best because she moved here as an adult. It's hard to pick up a really strange language to go from Farsi to English. And the way I see it is if we can tell stories that appeal to her on multiple levels intellectually emotionally and are um something she can relate to on multiple levels then we've succeeded um because everything else will fall into place so that's my hope now who actually is our audience i you know almost

it's almost like it doesn't matter that's my my feeling. Like, I feel like if we can speak to that audience, it will speak to everyone because I have to assume the audience is everyone. Young, old, black, white, brown. Do you want to make the show for the audience you have or the audience you want or the combination of both? Like, why is there… I think there's this assumption that, I don't know,

we've encountered sometimes where people are like, well, the audience NPR has would want this kind of thing. And by that, they mean like the majority white, you know, middle to upper middle class, you know, audience. And then the audience that's like aspirational, the young, more diverse audience, they would want something different.

Why? Like, that's where we challenge. I think that's what our show does. I think that's what your shows have always been so good at doing which is challenging that right really you didn't you have to tell but who do you have in your mind you have to tell Rampton and I told you have to tell I mean to be honest it used to be my dad I mean he he was like things were not as intuitive right um but he yeah but he loved NPR. And I'm like, that's, I think the shared thing there is just people who want a different perspective, want to see themselves more. That's who I'm thinking of, you know?

Yeah, I just feel like we need to have a space where you don't already have to know the thing in order to hear about the thing. Like, I remember, I know this a like a tiny version of this. Like I remember when I was on maternity leave and I, you know, I had two babies. Like I didn't have time to be reading or watching all this. And I remember listening to or trying to watch one of the Sunday morning political affairs shows. And I had no idea what they were talking about. And I didn't like how that made me feel because I didn't. And then I realized, oh, it's not for me. It's for the insiders. You

know, it's for the people who already know all the things. And since I used to be on one of those shows, like I'm not hating, but I'm just saying I would never want someone to tune in to one of my shows and feel stupid. Yes. I just, I don't want that. Yeah. So when you think of your, we had a deal. So you got, you got to tell us who you think your audience is. Well, I used to think of my parents like you, unfortunately, but they both passed on. But I think about them because they read like, you know, growing up in New York is great because New York was a five newspaper town, you know? And my parents bought like every newspaper, even once, I swear to you, they

would buy like El Diario, even though they didn't speak Spanish because they wanted to see like what was going on, you know? And they had not had the opportunity to have a lot of, you know, formal education. My mom did not ever get to go to college. My dad only got to go to college for a little bit of time and felt he had to leave college to help support, you know, his mom and his younger siblings. But they were always very interested in the news. And so I always have that in my mind, which is why it really makes me feel so just because they haven't had access to, you know, higher education or perhaps they had their education was interrupted. Doesn't mean they're not smart and don't care. Susan Stamberg used the word gentle and respectful. And I know that sometimes people think we're too gentle and respectful. Like, we don't do hatred very well here.

Like, I get it, you know. But is the world a better place because everybody's yelling at everybody else no is is it is it you know my attitude is and i'm sorry if some people think it's a little pokey or whatever but give people a chance to know before you decide that they're trash for not agreeing with you and i just that's edgy these days that perspective is edgy it's like that it's like a it's contrarian because of the way i think the the media landscape because of social media and stuff has evolved like that what your point that you're making right now like maybe you know in

this context it's that and so like in in light of that looking, what do you hope for? Like both in your cover version from NPR. So if we did a 75th, you know, NPR 75th anniversary, like what do you what do you hope that looks like? Well, gosh, the second generation of the through line will be like interviewing you two as the founding brother and sister and about, you know, how you pioneered. That's my hope. I hope to create Tell Me More as something that I could pass on to somebody else, right? That had been my hope. That's why my name wasn't on it. It wasn't Tell Me More. It was Tell Me More because I was hoping that, yeah, but you all are sort of doing that in your own way. It lives, that sensibility and those ideas and that desire lives in other projects. Like part of that idea lives in Code Switch doing what it's doing, what you're doing. I hope that people will continue to

push the envelope and give people what they need, even if they don't know they need it yet, or if they don't want it yet. I feel like that is the goal. Like I said, I'm sort of, in a weird way, this whole 50th anniversary thing, which at first was like, I don't do nostalgia. Sorry, I'm out, you know,

but it's actually been kind of healing in a way because you see that every generation of us has to confront this idea of what it's supposed to be and sort of say, but, but in a spirit, in a generous spirit, in a spirit of, of sharing, I would hope that people would continue to remember that, like, as I said, we've all stood on somebody else's shoulders.

We've all benefited from the work that other people have done and that we will continue to be gracious about that, which I greatly, you know, appreciate your inviting me to talk about it. I was like, I don't really, what? You know, I'm trying to keep doing my thing here. I'm like, I have more yet to do. But I think it is good. It puts it in perspective that the resistance you are facing now is only the sign that you have touched a nerve. And therefore, you need to keep pushing.

This was just an excuse so we could talk, Michelle. Really? We're all really busy, so we're like, we needed snacks, though. We'll just schedule another. I know, we should. Exactly. We'll schedule another get-together,

this time with snacks. All right, Michelle, we really appreciate it. Is there anything else we missed that you want to add? No, the only thing that I would say is that I think that people have come back around to depth. That's one of the things that I appreciate. That's interesting to me is because there's been this big move in broadcasting. Everything had to be shorter, shorter, shorter, shorter. I think one of the things that I've appreciated is kind of a return to depth because you can dig into things in a way that you can't always in these little four minutes here and three minutes there.

I think that's a welcome sign so that people want to know more. They can. I think that's that's that's been a positive. Some things need to be what they need to be. And I think that's important. A recognition that sometimes things need to be what they need to be. And I think that's important. A recognition that sometimes things need to be what they need to be. For all the talk of audiences

and all of that, the reality is the actual audience is you listening right now. So thanks for listening. Maybe you've been listening to NPR for 50 years, in which case, thank you. Or maybe it's just been 40 minutes or so. Maybe this is the first time you've ever listened to NPR. Either way, thank you. And happy birthday, NPR. Oh, and a reminder.

We're hoping you can take a short anonymous survey that'll help us out by telling us what you like and how we can improve. And we want to hear from everyone, even our new listeners and those who might not have taken one of our surveys before. You can take the survey by going to this address, npr.org slash podcast survey. Again, that's npr.org slash podcast survey. That's it for this week's show. I'm Ramtin Arablui. I'm Randabd El-Fattah. And you've been listening to ThruLine from NPR.

This episode was produced by me. And me. And. Jamie York. Lawrence Wu. Blaine Kaplan-Levinson. Julie Kane. Victor Ibeez.

Darius Rafion. Yolanda Sanguini. Fact-checking for this episode was done by Kevin Vogel. Thanks also to Anya Grunman and all the other folks at NPR who make amazing content they do every day and every week. Our music was composed by Ramteen and his band Drop Electric, which includes Naveed Marvi, Cho Fujiwara,

Anya Mizani. There was also music in this episode composed by our very own Lane Kaplan-Levinson. And as always, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, reach out to us at ThruLine at NPR.org or hit us up on Twitter at ThruLine NPR. Thanks for listening. And a special thanks to our funder, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, for helping to support this podcast. Hey, remember that bananas episode we did?

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