Throwbacks with Matt Leinart & Jerry Ferrara - Jared Allen on the Hall of Fame, Sacking Matt Leinart, the REAL Sack Record, The Art of the Pass Rush and more!

Episode Date: January 29, 2026

Hall of Famer Jared Allen joins the show to talk about his legendary career, the time he sacked Matt in his first ever start, and what it means to him to be enshrined into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Plus, Jared recalls being traded earlier in his career and how he learned the NFL was a business, he breaks down the art of the pass rush, Myles Garett’s record setting season and the year he should have had the single season sack record. Finally, Jarrett tells the guys how he became world class curler.   Later Annie Agar joins the show to wonder how Bill Belichick isn’t a first ballot Hall of Famer and Shedeur Sanders is a Pro Bowler, and she competes with Jerry in this week’s Twisted Tea Trivia.   New episodes of Throwbacks drop every Thursday. Make sure you’re subscribed on YouTube and following on all podcast platforms. Also, make sure you’re locked in on social @ThrowbacksShow on all platforms for highlight moments, bonus content, and to engage with the guys & the Throwbacks community. (http://throwbacksshow.com/)      A big thank you to our sponsors:    Wendy’s Join Team Tendy’s and enjoy a line-up like never before. Crispy. Juicy. Tendys Now at Wendy’s. https://www.tendys.com  Twisted Tea Grab a Refreshing Twisted Tea Today.  https://www.twistedtea.com/locations  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So no joke, Sean Payton me a couple years ago. We're on, we're on spring break. You know, hey, you want to come coach in Denver, be our passion, sky. And I was like, like, what hours are we talking about? Yeah, I like my life. I like my life. And dudes are like 10, 11 o'clock at night.

I was like, my kids, you know, I put my kids to bed. My wife's like, we've never had a babysitter in anything. Like, we're not hiring them now. Like, what? No, like, we're not having other people drive our kids to sporting events because you're working until midnight. All right. Welcome to another episode of Throwbacks, everybody. Please don't forget.

Yeah, don't forget. Give us a follow on all socials at Throwback Show on the YouTube, like and subscribe at Throwback Show there too. And I hope you're not, I hope everyone's brokering out your football coverage just yet because we got a good episode for you. Don't go in too big on the Super Bowl stuff. You got a long way to go still until we get to that game.

We do. Well, it is a long way to go, but then football's got to be over before you know it, dude. What are we going to talk about? We're going to talk about your New York Knicks and how sad. You're going to have to watch basketball. Jerry, just real quick, man, we got to get this out there. You know, it's been a journey for you about a year ago.

We talked about you and I off air, the thought of the prospects of both of us having another kid, another baby. My daughter is about to be one years old, which is crazy. And for months and months and months, you just, you were in your corner, dude, you were ducking, you're diving, you were jabbing, you were keeping Bree away. You're like, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. But here we are now.

The final week could happen. Any point, dude, could happen right now as we record this episode. That's true. You're having another baby, which is the greatest gift of all time, and it's so exciting. You're going to give your two boys a little brother or a little sister. My question to you, and we usually ask all our guests, you know, like prep and game day. This final week, day, minute of prep, what are you like and what are you doing personally

to prepare for a third child? Well, first off, I want to just say, Matt, as I look right into the camera, you had a lot to do with this. You were just telling me, just do it. It's awesome. Do it. It's great.

Do it. And it is. And it is. Let's just say when Bree and I talked this out, if you remember those early Mike Tyson fights, the guy he was always fighting in the beginning tried to look confident. And once he got one shot from Tyson,

you'd see him panic. That's how my conversations went with Bree. I was confident in holding my ground until I got punched in the face. And I just was like, all right, whatever you want. All kidding aside, I am very excited. It has been very cool for this one, for this third time to not know

if it's a boy or a girl. We knew it was a boy for both. So that is definitely added to this experience of I can't just wait. I can't wait to see this kid, you know, boy, girl, I can't wait. I do have moments of excitement and I have moments of terror. Terror. When people start asking me stuff, I'm now getting invited to things in like March,

like, hey, you want to go play Shadow Creek or you want to go do this? I'm like, I don't, March? I don't know. That was supposed to be the compromise getting into this. You were supposed to be allowed to do whatever you really wanted to do. Which she knew the whole entire time was a loaded. she was just like, I'm gonna loop him in and then once he sees that kid, it's over.

So I am very excited. Now it's like any day. So like I'm all over her. Everything she says, like, you okay, is it happening? But then like when we get to like nine o'clock at night, I'm like, maybe it don't happen tonight. I'm really tired right now. I don't want to wake up at one in the morning.

You don't wake up at two a year. Like it's time to go. And she's just a birth of child. And I'm over here complaining. I'm going to lose sleep. But she's the best. You need your rest too. she's a trooper though and the boys our two boys are really fired up you know uh we've been talking a lot

to them about what it's going to go on and not try to make it sound like hey all of this is going to change because of this baby right because we're trying to make it like enhance how everything is going to be because of this baby so uh yeah man i'm ready best of luck dude the next time we do our show hopefully you would think you would think it's common man and uh my guess is it's it's a, it's a baby girl. Okay. You're two boys and the girl. Probably one of your boys is probably going to be pissed.

And the other one's probably going to love. That's how mine wears. It's pretty funny. And then they both switched. Well, I told you, too, off the air. Like, if we have a third boy, I'm just going to put mats in the basin and build an octagon. We're going to be a full MMA family. If it's a girl, I think I'm going to become a gun nut and just, I'm going to have a

hurt locker in my room. Like, what do you want to do? Well, we'll be thinking about, we'll be thinking about, we'll be thinking about more importantly, we'll be thinking about Brie as she gets through this and you guys. But man, it's going to be awesome, dude. Yeah, it is humbling when, like, you start thinking about, yeah, I'm excited. And you think about everything that the mom does. And you're like, wow, I'm really just a useless piece of it are.

Yeah. It's like, you're doing like a herculean thing. And I'm over here just like, we're just sitting there like, yeah, go. You're doing great job. So, well, it's going to be awesome, dude. Yeah. So we do have a good one for you today. again, you're going to get lots of Super Bowl content.

We're going to talk a little about the Super Bowl with Annie Agar in our Twisted C spot coming up later. But we decided to continue the pass rushing onslaught. We hit you with Von Miller last week. One of the best pass rushes of all time. Just had nine sacks. This week, we're hitting you with an absolute legend. Matt, you want to say who it is?

Hall of Famer, Jared Allen. Jared Allen. Here's what I will say previewing this episode. first of all, if you're interested about pass rushing, you're going to be pleased. But secondly, if you're a young player, a young coach, an old coach, your kid loves to, he goes on a 10 to 15 minute detailed rant about the art of the pass rush that should be memorialized in the Hall of Fame because he just broke it down and I was blown away. Well, Vaughn Miller said something last week, but it was totally a different approach.

that he takes because he was a different player than Jared Allen. Jared Allen was your traditional 6566, 260, hand in the dirt, and just go off the edge. And this 10-minute just artistry of breaking down what he looked for in film and how he attacked tackles and what made him successful, and I'll give a little tease, what made him successful wasn't necessarily the talent, but it was understanding situational football. And Vaughn said the same thing. So for all the young guys out there, is one of those you got to listen to. He's fantastic. I mean, the dude is a world-class curling player now, which is unbelievable. So you go from freaking a Hall of Fame D. Lyman to now in curling. But he's incredible. So much wisdom. I'm such a great dude. My first ever start,

he tells a great story. I'll let you guys have to listen to it. He tells us a great story about how he got me. When I played for the airs. I didn't remember he got me, but he got me when I play for the Cardinals. So, yeah, man, Jared Allen, this is fantastic, dude. It was awesome, awesome to get him on throwbacks. All right. Well, I guess without further ado, number 69, Jared Allen. Okay, our guest today is a Hall of Famer, a four-time first-team all-pro,

five-time pro bowler, two-time sack leader, holds the record for most career safeties and safety in the season, and he should hold the record for most sacks. We're going to talk about that for sure. And he now is a world-class curler. We're definitely going to talk to that. Which is mind-blowing, by the way. Jared L. And welcome to the show, my guy.

Rob, thanks for having me. A big fan of both of your guys. You know, so this is an honor. What's up, dude? How you doing, man? How does it feel to be a Hall of Famer? You know what? It's cool.

And then you go back to being just dad and Uber driver and all the twin stuff. Well, Uber drivers, he was paid. So, you know, go for whatever you want to call it. So, yeah, no, it was a great. moment. It was a cool deal. The process is a little frustrating. You were lost because, you know, I was a first ballot finalist with Peyton and all those guys and you just think, okay, maybe I don't get in first ballot. But next year, I'm sure, shooing, right? And then you don't know, because that's the problem with the process. You don't know what the metrics are, right? You don't know. You're just like,

okay. And then, you know, Eric Allen, you know, we were talking about it this, you know, because he was in my class, right? And he was like, the hardest thing about it is, is you start getting competitive with guys that you like really like and you know you're like I'm super fan but then you're like comparing like am I better than this guy is that you're like why am I going down this road and you're like competitive or mine and you're trying to figure out you know how you can better yourself to possibly get in the next year but then you're like there's nothing I can do about this this I you know I played 10 years ago um so yeah it's uh it was an interesting process but you know once once you get in uh you know Chris Carter told me he's like Garrett he's like once you get in

it doesn't matter how long it took he's like no one ever ever. asked, it goes away. All the animosity seems to fade or the frustration seems to fade. And you're right. The weekend was fantastic. Couldn't ask for a better class. Guys couldn't have asked for a better experience. But like 195 guys come back and the hall did a great job taking care of the family and stuff. So it was a good deal. And now, yeah, now you go about your business like normal. Yeah, I can only imagine. I was on a flight one time. It's a little bit of a name drop. But I was on a flight with Michael Strahan after he was already in. And he gave me like the voting

And he's like, take a look at this. He's like, how are you supposed to pick between these guys? And you look at the names. It's like, it's as impossible to, you can't litigate it. Like, well, it says all unbelievable stats and unbelievable players. So yeah, I get what you mean. Like, who the heck knows what they're voting on year to year? And that's the tough part, right?

So you're sitting in the room and then you don't know who has influence, who doesn't. You know, there's certain presenters hold way more weight in the room than other guys. And then you have stories where guys will be eligible for many years. And they jump in and you're like, well, what, like, you know. So, you know, my way I looked at, I was always mad with the year I didn't get they were you upset. I'm like, I'm upset because they made me upset for like three days, right? For, you know, 52 weeks or 51 weeks out of the year, I didn't think about it.

Then you get up to that week of selection. And then you're like, all of a sudden care. And I'm like, well, dog's still going to go crap in the yard. I got chores to do. So let's get back to work. But, yeah, but it's definitely one of those things. And you get there, the best part about me for was, you know, I got, you know, Mingo Green.

I'm sitting there talking to Mingo Green. And he knows my name. I'm like fanboying out. Like this is the coolest thing ever. Sitting and talking to some of the old guys, widows who still show up and hearing the stories from the family's perspective about these guys that we know we all watch growing up as kids. It was a great thing.

And then just like I said, that camarader and getting to see like you're just, you know, I'm sitting there having lunch with Steve Larkin. You know what I mean? So cool. What does that ever going to happen? So that's what I took of it.

And it was great. And, you know, you realize the importance or the, it's special and it's important to continue to give back and then go see those guys because there you know, Mike, I will say the Hall of Famers being there, that Friday night, you know, kind of gold jacket dinner where you kind of do this gauntlet, right?

If no one shows up, then it's not as nearly as impactful. But, you know, when all the guys come back, it was a pretty special deal. I was, I was, I did not, I did not make the NFL Hall of Fame, but I was fortunate enough to make the college. But the same point, I remember being in the back room, And Peyton was in our class and Marshall Falk was really awesome. But the person that I was most excited to meet was Kurt Gibson, old Dodger great.

So it was like I'll tear up thinking about it because Jerry knows this. I'm a lifelong Dodger fan born and raised, my dad, and we're sitting in the back room. And Kurt was an all-American receiver at Michigan State. So not a lot of people knew that. I obviously played baseball too and went on to play MLB. But we're sitting back there. And I'm watching my dad like talk to Kirk Gibson. in the 1988 home run.

Like it's like one of those few sports memories where I remember I was. It was five years old. And like the three of us. So like I can feel that with you. It's like you're in this room with just absolute legends, man. And like Kirk Gibson was that for me. It was such a cool experience.

I can imagine sitting in that room. And that college football hall of fame was hard to get into. You know, every time I see the class sometimes I'm like, that guy's not in there yet. Yeah. Again, I don't know the voting process either. But, um,

But no, that's a, that's a cool thing. And I think that's, I think that's what true, like, you know, competitors that are guys that have competed at the highest level, right? You know, anybody that ever says they came out, like, their goal was to be in the Hall of Fame is full of it. Like, your goal is just to be the best, right? So every year I'm just trying to outdo you the year before that. I'm just trying to be the best to help my team be the best.

And, you know, the byproduct of that is, you know, maybe one day you're good enough to be in the Hall of Fame. But I think, you know, what Morgan Moore I talked is those moments that everybody remembers, right? It's not the ceremony. It's not the gold jacket. It's not the ring. It's not the honor.

It's not the, my names, you know, you know, they talk about, oh, you're, you're in football heaven or immortality.

It's the fact that I get to go back and have conversations with God. I mean, we were just at one of the receptions and my dad's in there, him and Jim Kelly are like, you know, best buds on this line.

I'm like, oh, poor Jim, my dad is wearing the dude out, right? Wow. And then, you know, they're just back and forth.

And I grew up, you know, we were from Northern California. I grew up a Raiders and Bill's fan, right? So I don't know why in Bill's, but they were awesome. Steve Tasker was like my favorite player ever. And, uh, a little Don Beebe action, a little Don Beebe. You know what about him bounced off his head like, they were so good.

It's still like, I'm like talking to Jim Kelly and we're just, I'm like, this is fantastic. Oh, man. We were, uh, Jerry. So Jerry and I were talking before you came on and I'm like, I haven't seen you. I mean, obviously, I always respected you were a hell of a player and, um, watched your career. And I was like, I think Jerry was like, did Jared? never sack you. I'm like, honestly, dude, like, I can't remember, but my first ever start, which by the way, you did. You got me because he just looked up on pro reference. We have the data,

if you're interested. And I was like, my first ever start was against the chiefs at home. And that was like kind of the start. And then we had like the Monday night game, the Denny Green game the following week where we lost to Erlack and those guys and they made that epic run. What do you, uh, I don't remember much from that game other than like we, we kicked a field goal to tie at the end. So, yeah. Yeah, that was, I was telling you guys, I had a story about interception you through, right? So that game was crazy. So we, you had big Leonard Brown.

Yeah, Brown. Yeah. Right tackle. Left tackle. Or left tackle. Yeah. 400 pounds, dude. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

And I'll think with Leonard, I mean, when the dude is that big and that strong, I was like, he's a much better guard. It was a, Leonard Davis. Leonard Davis. Leonard Davis. Leonard Davis. And he was one of the nicest human beings ever. Yeah. And, but I mean, I was like, and I remember you guys kicked him out to tackle.

He played guard, I think of Dallas. He can't remember how it went from tackle to guard. But at one point he was the guard. I'm like, thank goodness he's in there. But he came out there and I'm like getting this dude. Damn, I'm getting him. But he kept landing on me just. I was turning a corner.

I'd be right at Matt's feet and he just land on me. I do my ribs hurt for two weeks after that. I was like, I can't breathe. I did hit with an inside move and Sag, the Sagmat in that game. But we were down 21, we were down 2114, I believe. And so we're sitting in the huddle. And Thai Lodge just looks around.

He was like, all right, Jay, how are you doing up there? I was like man I'm getting to him like he's gonna all right and then he looks at Greg West he goes hey uh he goes hey G uh cover me deep he goes by the way guys I'm picking his ball off right now called his shot this dude took one shuffle back so good sat on an out rap right and he just I remember it took and then we then we came back tied the game we got to score tied the guy I believe in we I'm not sure we won that I don't remember you guys won you guys won yeah but I was like this dude he he just called that he was like I'm going to pick this ball off. He just said, all right, hey, we know, we need, we need to turn

over. I'm going to take this ball right now. It would have been nice to know that. Shit. Was that your first read, Matt? Was that your first read? I don't, I just remember, I don't, I don't remember, I remember throwing it up the right. Yeah, it was like, it was to the right. And Ty's a Hall of Famer. I mean, Ty was just so smart. Yeah, he's so savvy. He was so smart. And that was late in the game, too. And then, then we went on a drive at the end. You guys were up. I think you won by three. You were up. And then we missed a field goal to tie. But yeah, I was, I was, I was, I would, I was, I was, I was, I was like, this dude just called it.

And I mean, he knew he, I mean, we were in the huddles. It wasn't like he saw the formation and was like, oh, there's a good chance of running an out route. He was in the huddle. And his word verbatim was like, all right, you might make sure you get as much pressure as possible. Safety's taking me over the top. I'm sitting on this out route.

I'm picking this ball off right now. Did you have a, did you, so my, I was, you always, you always said like the Welcome to the League moment, right? Mine was really probably the next week when Erlacker just blasts. I mean, you remember, Erlack. was just they ran a lot of cover two he's in the middle was six four they all gave you a zero look every single time i know they were they were they were they were they went to the super bowl that year they lost to peyton um and i just remember him just blasting me dude and i was

just like i almost broke my wrist i'm like shit did you are oh four right was your yeah i was did you have a moment like that whether it was a tackle or just someone just oh dude yeah i mean i was what i was talking about in my hall of fame speech dude so my rookie year i you know i had I had the pleasure and displeasure of practicing every day against Willie Roof, which, you know, again, Leonard Davis was about 385. I think they had him listed pushing 400. Yeah, Willie was big. Willie was right at the same range. But, I mean, and then the dude had feet sneakily could move and just was a monster.

So we're doing a little half-line drill. And the mass smacked Willie right underneath the chin. I locked them out. G. West came down. I mean, murdered Priest Holmes in the hole, right? Defense is like loving it. Coach Vermeal was pissed. Mother.

That's a banker on her. That's the ticket to the Super Bowl. Dog pusses the offense. And so, you know, that's how we, so Casey Wigman was our center, Brian Waters, who's in the key, you know, Chief's Ring of Honor. Yeah. Perennial Pro Bowl or all pro guy.

And then, you know, then, you know, big old Willie Rove, Hall of Famer. So he's like, you got to do it again. So I'm like, oh, and this time, so I, you know, I was, I played my first couple years around like 275, 280 they made me big barred slimmed down like 255 and so i hit william begin bam locked them out all of a sudden i'm going backwards and i can i'm like on my tip and toes my feet are dangar off the ground he just lifted me up rammed me for like five yards dumped me on my head and as

they tried to get up speared me in the back and i was just like stay down oh crap like there's there's levels to this game there's definitely level and you're a big dude too i never be right this guy still kicked my ass um and so that moment forth i was like i'm gonna make him my best friend i asked will I mean, I'm like, if I can figure out how to beat Willie Rove, I'll have a long career in this league. And so that's what I did. I just, I was like, picked his brain about everything, how to beat him out of this. But yeah, that was my moment. And it was like, okay, well, that's, that's the, that's a lot of work to do.

I'm right about here right now. So I want to ask you something about that run with the Chiefs because also I'm a huge gamer, right? You were my guy and Matt in that season with the Chiefs. And I still can't believe, like, you don't really see, especially, back then, like, there was never tons of NFL trades of, like, big names. And the year you got traded to the Vikings, I think you tied for the lead in sacks or you had the lead lead in sacks. Like, like I said, you were my guy in Madden. So that's the trade for me. I remember, like, because that happens in basketball and baseball all the time. And the NFL rarely, that was the first, like,

shocking NFL trade to me. I just couldn't believe that. You and me both. I was, I was going to say, were you as well, I'm just, again, I'm not trying to, like, make you relive that. Oh, You went on with the Vikings and it was unbelievable run. You know, I got, you know, I never understood it. I got in trouble my third year, right? And obviously preseason and, you know, got a DUI. So, you know, with dealing with that. But, you know, so I went to them and it's the part that was frustrated about that was,

so I was only on a three-year deal. Back then, you know, you, Matt was probably on a four-year, to your first-round pick quarterback or maybe a five. But back then you was like, you know, I'm fourth-round pick. So I'm three-year trying to get, trying to get, you know, to free agency as fast as possible. So they had tendered me, right? So after that third year, which would have been, I guess, been in 06 season, you know, got

that trouble. But anyway, so I came to him in that office as I, hey, let me, let me prove to you guys that, you know, it was just a dumb kid making dumb mistakes, right? You know, did all the class, did everything, ate the suspension, you know, was in the program for two years. Didn't have a, you know, a sip of alcohol for two years, you know, just let's just like, hey, listen, I was young, dumb, immature. Let's, let's move on.

So we're all good and good. And so I signed my tender, you know, that year. They hit me with the first and third round tender. And so, but I told them, I was like, if you guys try to franchise me, like, we're going to have a problem, right? Yeah. And so, no joke. And Dwight Frini, I, you know, every defensive van owes Dwight Frini the world.

So we gave them, I gave, we gave them an offer, you know, at that time, you know, it was like a seven, you know, APY number because I think it would have made me like the fifth highest paid defensive van in the league. I mean, because, I mean, Jason Taylor, the time. was only making like $8 million a year, right? And so I'll never forget. It was a six-year $42 million contract we put in front of them. And I'm in my, I'm like, this is the most money I've ever seen in my life.

Yeah. Yeah. On a freaking ranch, and that was poor. So, and they were like, no, not happening. And they started like, oh, you know, he's at risk, this, that. And they franchised me. And I was like, oh, I'm like, so everything, you know, now they're trying to, now they're just, you know, doing the whole media thing, playing things.

And we were supposed to be on a conference call with Carl Peterson. And we're sitting, me and my agent sitting on the phone with the, Danny Thume, he was the assistant gym at the time. Like 20 minutes later, he's like, oh, Carl jumped on a plane and got in and he's out of the country now. I'm like, you guys scheduled this call. Like, we didn't schedule this call. So I just called and I was called Clark straight up. And I was like, hey, you know what? I think, you know, my time here is run its course.

I need to go somewhere that believes in me, obviously. And, you know, so here's your options. You can rent me for two years for $20 million. I'll pull my hamstring week, you know, week six. both years, then we can go that route. And so they agreed to let me try to trade to Tampa. And obviously they had to agree to it because I was still, you know, I was, I was under or was I was I was restricted, right?

And so then Minnesota jumped in and, you know, that was that was it. They had to give up all the picks and stuff like that. But yeah, it was one of those things. We had to work hard behind the scenes to try to make it happen. And I was on the impression like, oh, there's no way. But during that time span, Dwight Frini signs this massive deal, right, becoming the highest defensive players. ever and we're all looking at our stats and I'm like yep that's market value we got true market

value maybe but uh you did and then every you know and then obviously the floodgates opened after that but uh it was what it was a crazy time man it was one of those things are because coming from college as you know matt like you're back then still you're playing for loyalty right you know i mean i'm i'm i Idaho state kids so we're playing for championships we're playing for our teammates it's still like north dallas 40 you're just out there you're the biggest meat sticks you know just we're just playing ball to play ball. And all of a sudden, we had this just smack in the face of what the business side of football is.

And man, it was tough, man. You got, you sit in these rooms and you get beat down. People telling me they want to sign you and pay you all this money, but then also telling you all your faults because their job is to get you at the lowest possible rate, right?

And you're like, I'm sitting right here, people. I'm in the room. And so it was, it was nuts. And, and I,

you know, I didn't know if I was going to go to Minnesota because they were trying to force the trade to Tampa. But then, you know, we knew Gruden was probably out of there soon. So yeah, it was crazy. And then, like you said, you just didn't see that happen for Minnesota to give up that many

picks and the salary at the same time. I mean, now it happens, you know, quite often. When you go back to Idaho State and you were obviously great there and now, you talk about the business now with NIL in college, which I'm sure you, it's just, it's wild, you know, me covering college football, I just see it all the time. Hypothetically, you go back to your days there. Like, would you, would you have chased? money if someone threw a lot of money at you, one of the bigger schools.

You can talk about loyalty and commitment, but I think that's like, for sure. I've been gone. I'd be gone. Yeah, I mean, I'd be, come on. Really? And you got kids. Because the NFL, especially knowing what you know now, you don't get NFL doesn't care about loyalty. You know, I actually had a phone call with a, uh, with a parent of a kid, uh, that's in

one double A and asking about that. Well, they want to be loyal with a kid. I'm like, why? They're going to use that against you. They're going to use small schools against you. Uh, they're going to say, oh, why didn't you go and try to make a market at a bigger school? I mean, let's be honest.

Because football is not guaranteed. So, you know, getting paid in football is not guaranteed. So if someone's going to put a million bucks in your pocket as a young kid, hopefully you're smart enough to, you know, to not just blow it. But I'm glad I would have been dead. I get asked all the time and I'm thinking like, shit, I don't know if I really wanted to make money at that point because that would have changed everything. I was making $436 a month on the stipend check.

And I thought I was wealthy. You know what I mean? And we were living out of control on that. Dude, I was telling you guys before, I just, you know, move my son into college. And they're getting paid now. Like, they're getting RevShare, which is guaranteed money every month. They get some NIL. You know, they have a shot to make real money.

But I'm telling him, I said, listen, dude, I lived off a card and training table. And, like, when I spent money on like, like, I would check, like, oh, I got $200 my bank account. Let's go get, like, a T-shirt at, like, slossons, all that. Like, we were living the dream, dude. Now he's like, well, dad, I'm only making. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not no.

You're going to live off that little credit card. You're going to go to freaking Chipotle and all the places that you can eat for free all week because that's how we did it, man. But, yeah, it's just a different world. I was jealous because you guys, the big schools had training table. We didn't have training table. So we had to choose, we either had to choose our stipend, right, or live on campus where you got to go to the cafeteria on your meal card, right?

But you couldn't have both. So if you lived off campus, so my 436, so, no joke, my 436 was my freshman year. So I had to live in door for a freshman year, so my sophomore year. I got 520 by my senior year. I was like, oh, this is. Oh, yeah. 80 buck increased this. Eating good, baby, eating good.

And, but we had to pay rent and feed ourselves on it. Yeah. And that's wild, man. Yeah, we had no, dude, I was, I was under the problem. Like, you know what? Because I had committed to University of Washington and all that stuff. I thought I was going, you know, pack 12. I had a pack 10 at the time back then, right?

And I'm like, well, Idaho State is going to be great. This is going to be big fish, small pond. It's going to be just, you know, football central. And that was, I couldn't have been more wrong out there. You have to go to school, sir. Yeah. But you know, we could have been teammates because my sophomore year, coach Uperessa, left Idaho State and went to USC and became the O'Line coach there.

And so they offered me a scholarship. And because I had my, so I had my, I still had my redshirt because I didn't register, right? And so I was like, yeah, I'm in. He's like, but back then, we didn't have the transfer portal. So you had to go and get your, oh, had to release you. And they wouldn't give me my release. He's like,

no, I'm not releasing my next one. That's a pretty big what if. That's a great what if. And so, you know, I was like, okay,

you know, so you can still leave, but you couldn't accept money. And at the time, like we laugh, I mean, now it's cheap, right?

USC at the time was 18,000 a semester. Right? And, uh, I was like, we can't afford 18. Was that 03?

Would that have been, 03? Would have been, no, would have been, uh, or 02. So my,

so, Oh, well, 2000, 2001. So I graduated 2000. 2001 was my first year. And then so I came out. I was like 13 All-American my sophomore year. So it was after my sophomore year, you know, all the preseasoned all-American stuff.

And so oops, fails, right? And I remember. He was our office coordinator. And he was like, call me. And then he's like, you got to let me know. He's like, I got to get a scholarship with someone else. If you can't take it.

I was like, well, talk to Lou. I wonder who, I wonder who got that scholarship. I don't know. Yeah. I was, I don't know. I get sitting in the office and my coach is like, nope, ain't happening. And I was like, well, I guess I better make do when I got here. So which probably for the best, you know what I mean?

Who knows what happens? You go, you get, you get through an SC, you're red shirt and you're probably, you know, I end up with great D line coaches. So, but yeah, that's always my, my client of fame. Me and Carol would laugh about it, Ryan, I was like, could have been teammates, bud. Yeah, I see Ryan all the time. You could have, what was I going to say? Oh, Coach Ogeron.

Coach Ojong would have been your D-line coach. Okay, was he the D-Line coach? He took the Ole Miss head coaching job. You would have been already gone in 2004, but he was a D-Line coach for all those. I mean, he was great. He was fucking a nut, though. You guys were, I mean,

SC. That was, we were rolling that era. I'm gonna, it had to be, I mean, close to a decade. You guys ruled the Pact 10. Yeah. I wanted to go to Udub out of, out of, but Washington was great too.

That's right. When they had two off of Sopo and those guys. Once I realized, I didn't have anywhere near the graves to get into Notre Dame to play for who holds. I was like, all right, better bring it back closer to home. Oh, man. What if? That's been cool.

How much, because, you know, I know you got kids and you got a lot of things going on. How much NFL do you currently watch, if any, again? Because I know, like I said, the minute you have kids, all bets are off of what you could actually sit down and watch. Because I'm going somewhere at this question, but I want to gauge that first. You know what? um more honestly more the last probably like six months ish you know this last season more than i have you know when i first retired i didn't watch any uh but you know just enough especially when you're kind of you know constant with it's over through the hall of fame stuff and you're doing interviews

you don't want to sound like a complete idiot so it's just enough to like catch up but i don't i very seldom do i get a chance to watch a full game like playoffs i'll try to watch a game or two here but a lot of times it's just kept you know keeping up on you know what the scores are box scores you know so i got my buddies the gm over at denver so i keep up with them obviously keep up with the Vikings and cheers and stuff like that. So enough to know what's going on, but not enough to, you know. Right. Were you tracking at all the miles, Gary?

Because look, I am so happy Aaron Rogers went on the record in that video and said that was 100% of Jared Alex. And it's bullshit. And when you, I watched it since I, like he said that and I watched that play a million times. Like you were the only person to affect that play anyway. Like you were on them. Your only person to touch him. And how was that? Like he reestablished.

possession, right? So even though he had the muff, he reestablished possession and he could have thrown it. That's where I bought it was my argument. And they gave it to me that day and then they took it from me on Wednesday. But it's great. And every year has this. I mean,

you can go back to, you know, Reggie White when they had 14 games, right? But you could go back to, you know, so when I first got a league, like a snap over the head,

first person to touch him got the sack. That was a sack. Yeah. I mean, and then even you, so then they switched it now. It used to be like, let's say,

you know, A guy had full attack, you know, if you caused the fumble, he used to get the sack, right? It didn't matter. Now sometimes we split it or now they'll say, hey, this guy, we came in late, caused the fumble. He already, you know, now first contact didn't as gets the sacks. So there's been, I mean, I lost probably a handful of things over the years from half sacks to your half sacks.

But that one, but I always laugh at the one, you know, this was my own dumb fault. In that same game, I hit Aaron on a blitz, right? And I thought he was down. And I went off and celebrated. Well, he stayed up, I guess. And Antwer. He didn't go down. And Andrew on Winfield got the sack.

And I was like, oh, I thought I had three in that game. And then Wednesday I had one. I was like, what? What happened? But yeah, no, Miles Garrett. I am a massive fan of Miles Garrett. I think, you know, I like a bond in because we're in this world of college football. There's everybody specializes, right?

And you see the trend of everybody wants to go with these hybrid type defenses and have these, you know, fast rush coverage guys. And Miles still predominantly plays the right side, right? he's predominantly going to go against the best tackle. And he's on a team where, you know, he's the guy. So, you know, to be able to sustain the level he's sustained being that guy in those conditions, that league, that environment, and to do, I mean, honestly, it's just, if you don't respect talent, then, you know, then you're not a true competitor and you're not, you know, you won't truly love the game.

And so for me, any record I hold, I hope, I hope a worthy adversary, you know, you'll beats it, you know, somebody that comes along that loves the game that I'm a fan of, puts force the effort. And that's what Miles does. And like I said, I mean, the dude's a four down player, you know, I mean, the guy, that can go down and play a three technique and probably be a beast. He reminds me a lot of Julius Peppers, who I'm a master fan of. And so, you know, watching him chase it, I honestly, I thought he was going to hit 30. I mean, he had, I think he had 10 in three weeks.

Yes. Yes. And I'm just like, this is, this is an insane pace. And then you're looking and I'm like, and then they're playing Pittsburgh and you saw what happened in the playoff game, right? Their old line wasn't the best. And I'm like, this guy might have five. And, you know, my guy, Aaron, my guy Aaron didn't let it happen. I was telling Jerry this week, I'm like, just to your point, there's only like the true

art and you're one of the best to do it. I want to pick your brain on this. But like you kind of look at a guy like Max Crosby who's there, Miles Garrett. It's almost a rare breed now because it is so much hybrid now. Like even Micah Parsons is fantastic, but he can stand up, right? He can play coverage. He does a lot of things. So it's like, I don't say it's a dying breed, but it is kind of nice.

you see it just an old school DM put his hand in the dirt and just go one on one against the tackle. Like it gives me chills just thinking about it. I love it. I got chill just not thinking about it too. Dwight and Freeney, you know, back in the day too. And it's crazy. So Michael Parsons is a stud. Like absolutely. Yeah. So what I look at guys too is is, you know, I look at their tackles, be honest with you, right? And I'm like, you got to try to at least have 40 plus tackles on top of those sacks. Right. You see guys that I got 15 sacks and got 20 tackles. You're like, so what, 45 plays in the year? I know. I know, I know it's not, relative to just that they're making impacts. But I like guys that are trying to make impacts across the board, right?

The reason I played D-Lyne was to make, have first crack at every play. I didn't want to be known as a pastor. I'm a football player, right? I'm a defensive football player. And that's what I see with guys like, you know, you know, Michael Parsons, you know, Max Krogerick, Garrison, the world, and even, you know, T.J. Watt and stuff like that. But you're right. So the problem, the reason is the hybrid, people go to the hybrid because, you know,

you look at Sean Merriman when he first came in. So the charges were really kind of that first, really aggressive three, four. I know they weren't. But, you know, you had Sean Phillips and Merriman, and in our offensive line would count them as linebackers. So they weren't big. So a lot of times, you're full sliding. So let's say they'd say Sean Phillips is the big.

So they're going to slide to him. Now, Merriman's one-on-one with a back. And as you know, backs and that back then weren't you kept, you're not supposed to cut. The back is not supposed to cut because the fear of the, you know, the linebacker going into the quarterback's knees. And so I'm like, these dudes are getting. one-on-one blocks with running backs who were taking them to the chest. I'm getting cut by every running back normal man.

I'm trying to figure it out. You know, if I jump. Yeah, you're right. And so I used to get so frustrated on the matchups they would create. And so to your point to see Miles and see guys that are, you know, going against bigs, going against the best, you know, and I'm one of those rare people. And then, again, me and Max have communicated over the years a little bit, I think Max could be even better. I think there's some stuff he could do that could, that could, that could, that could, that could, that could, that could, that could, that could, up and I say that with all due respect.

I think there's some things that, you know, he could really take advantage of how fast twitch he is and what, and how lengthy he is to set up some more of his, his rushes and he could, I mean, those guys look like they can get to a game, you know? And so I, I like watching some of those new school guys that have the old school mentality. Micah has that when he lines up and he's that added,

like you said, but he can come from the middle. He can come from wherever and he creates a matchup nightmare, which as a defensive coordinator love, but as a purist, again best best in get on the right side go against the left tackle and let's see and then from the office standpoint if you have to chip on the left side you got a weak left tackle you need a new guy i i uh so i i want to ask you and i hope maybe i we're going to blast this out i hope young pass rushers watch this because when you when you watch you know as a quarterback your film study is

a lot and you know you're getting tells and defenses all that for you when you watch film and when you went against maybe certain tackles just take us through your mindset on how you went into a game every week and how you were going to attack that tackle one-on-one. Yeah, so obviously film study is massive, right? And, you know, that's kind of what I tell young guys, too. I'm like, you have to know how to practice is huge. You know, but you also have to understand yourself. So first of off, know what your strength is, right?

So I tell you to have one move and a counter move. You know, you can have a progression to how you get there, like with your long-arm progression and stuff like that and leverage a technique. But it's really, so for me, it's fully understanding the basics of my alignment and my getoff, first and foremost, right? Those are the two most important things. And understanding where that tackle is going to go. So my first thing I want to watch on a tackle is how is he set, which is he an angle A, which I would call what to be straight back? Or is an angle B where he's coming out at a 45, right?

Is he a rhythm puncher? So is he going to, is he going to give me the same set over and over and over? And then, you know, then how does he play into, I don't, I'm one of those guys like, I don't watch, I don't like watching films of them kicking the crap. out of somebody. I want to see how they get beat. And then do I have that in my repertoire to beat them? If I don't, okay, crap, well, I'm not going to go learn a new skill set. Right. And I think that's the thing a lot of young past researchers do. They try to change their skill set to try to beat the tack, you know, to be better at the tackle versus how do I set this tackle up to make my skill set better. And so again, just just watching their rhythm, watch and then run again,

you run game tape is really important too, because if I watch a guy getting beasted in the run game or If a guy comes off the line and he has to move his arm and expose his chest before he can move, I'm like, all, he's got bad feet, right? So now we can take advantage of his feet. And then so after your stance to start, my first, my first priority in my way, I got to capture the inside half. I got to kill the inside half of that body. So the other mistake guys make is they try to kill the outside. They think the outside half is the problem. So they're going to rush, try to knock that outside arm down, you know, try to run the corner, not understanding what they're trying to do.

But all that tackle has to do then is just, you know, kind of drop. step open and run them around the corner and, you know, they'll, they'll willfully, you guys getting to tackle. You're going to run eight yards deep. That's fine. The quarterback better step up, right? So then understanding how I, you know, where my contact points are, how I got to set that, you know, that tackle to shut down his inside half.

So then I can shorten the corner, right, trap an arm on that and that's something like that. So, you know, that's kind of, that's always a progression I went through. And so for me, anybody that was going to give me their hand, they were dead in the water. That was my bread and butter hand fighting, being able to set someone. up grab an elbow flip hips you know i trained mima for like eight eight years eight seasons with jihitsu and stuff like that which was fantastic for a pass rushing um and then and then the other you know then like you so you know take now go the other side if i got something that's just

kind of sloppy in my way which are the hardest ones to to go and sometimes guys are just bad in your way um or there's drifting straight back so now i have to now i have to mess with my with my alignment right so as a d-n width and depth is my issue right so as a detackle you have a issue. As the event span, I got whipped in depth, right? So how far am I off the ball and how wide am I? And so you mess with that. So for me, I want to try to get as tight as I can get without affecting his set. So that tackle is going to kick out to me wide every time, right? How tight can I get to him to he's going to kick? So on my third step, he's already overset me. I'm going inside. And so those are the different angles you play and then, you know, going through your long

arm progression. If a guy's not going to be heavy with his hand, you got to go through your long arm progressions on that, but which really just then forces him into a hand fight, right? And so, yeah, that's how that's film study works. And it's just frame by frame, play by play, watching, you know, watching, you know, the non-a-grander is understanding the totality of the offense, right? You know, how can I, best way from a young pass, if you can get a tip on a play action pass, game over. If I can jump to a nine technique when you guys think I'm going to be head up in an eight,

it's just that tiny has no chance. But yeah, but that's why I love the game. And that's why even you said it's far for me, it really is. I love it. It's a science to it, right? It's a violent science. And that's the other thing is, does young guys understand there is massive contact in pass rushing.

And if you're afraid of that, then you're just going to be one of those guys. You might have a good year or two, and then you're going to get washed out because the offensive linemen are just going to attack you. Jerry, how special is that right there? Did you understand any of that?

I just feel like. I can talk about for hours. I get all excited. It's like football porn, man. It's the greatest fucking thing in the world, man. I just feel like we got the Jared Allen pass rushing camp audio edition right there. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

You know, I did. So I did. I went up to Denver and I worked with those guys a couple years ago, doing some consulting work. And just working with the guys with Benito and Cooper and them. And Jamar Kand, the D-Line and Pastrush coach up there. He was new then. And so work with him and stuff like that.

But that's the part I love it. Because it is, it is an absolute science. And you take like a Nick Benito. I mean, he's one of the, this dude. He's got like that Dwight spring. You know, remember how fast Dwight was? Like, he was running like a four three. That spin move was insane.

And you're just like, oh my gosh. like this is insane. And Nick's not that tall, right? No, he's, though he's taller than Dwight. I think he's probably like 6-3, 6-2, 6-6-3 maybe. Yeah, but it's small for, you know, it's not as. Yeah, he's not the 6-6-6-6-2. Dwight was, I told Jerry, Dwight was 5-11, maybe.

Max. And like just, that's crazy. Yeah, it was, what he did was unbelievable. Oh, it was insane. And what he did, like, guys like John the Nogden were so hard for me, right? Because he's taller than me, we're lever. I mean, just, it's an awkward pass rush. And the way Dwight could just close that, that hit space.

and put him on his heels and then spin 13 different times was, uh, was impressive. But, you know, you get to a guy like Benito and that's where I'm like, you know, for him, we have just felt like, dude, you are so tall, so fast, so quick. If you, if you have great technique, nobody will stop you. And I think that's the big thing guys lose when they, when they, when they try to rely on their athleticism and you don't go through down the rabbit hole of what, what football's about, right, at each position, how, and if you do that and now you take away those little micro, you know half step here half second here this that and the other that's where guys become dangerous

and to bring a full circle back to what miles garrett does i mean just look at that last rush he had people can say oh joe burrow stepped up laid down i mean joe burrow was either getting sacked by mildly and sacked by that d tackle but did you not see his stand i mean his start was he was off the ball no problem that dude dipped around that corner that tackle had no there was nothing that tackle to do he made that corner so short and he did it by taking away that hip cushion and not allowing space for that tackle recover it was it was beautiful and um and so i love look back at those guys like that and I might, you know, well-deserved. And so hopefully young guys, you know, are getting taught technique at a young level too. We're blessed and great coaches.

And because that's what's going to have. I mean, that's happened. We have to be the, we have to be the counterpoint to you guys, right? You have a great quarterback. You have to have someone that can neutralize that. All right. So each week we do a Wendy's Fresh Take of the Week segment. And we like to loop in our guests here because my question for you for our fresh take of the week is who are some of the past rushers that you, you watched as a young guy, whether high school, college, or even when you first got to NFL, who were some of the past rushers you admired that you just had to get a look at? Oh, that's a long list.

I'll tell you who I wasn't a lot. I got banned from watching Dwight for any film. Okay. I got banned. Funny story. My second year, I came into OTAs, and we were in one-on-ones. And we're not supposed to be doing one-on-ones and OTA is, but we were. And I threw a spin move, and my coach, God rest his soul, Bob Carmelowitz, he dog-cust me.

He's like, you gumby mother, blah, blah, blah, you're leveraged that you don't know. If you, if I ever see you watching another Dwight, if you ever throw a spin move, when you don't get chip, you're on the, you're done, I'm firing you. That's great. That's great. I was not a good spin move guy. But, like you said, peppers. So I like watching guys that, you know, that I, that were technique we were similar to, right? So Jason Taylor, I'm huge fan of Jason Taylor.

Obviously, Bruce Smith growing up. I watched a ton of film of Leslie O'Neill and Derek Thomas when I first got to... Derek Thomas, yeah. That's why I went how to get off the ball, right? So Derek Thomas, I mean, I was like, how does he get off the ball so fast? So, and Matt, you might know that you do this. I actually a question for you. Do you guys even know that quarterbacks do this?

But almost 90% of all quarterbacks drop their bottom hand right before we're ready to get the ball, right? Like, you know, it's that bottom hand going. Yeah, you have a feel, yeah. Yeah, and so I go off the hands. And so I would always go off the quarterback's hands, never, uh, you know, And Peyton was the only one I ever saw, like on two would drop his hand. And you know, that's trying to get off. So you never really watched the ball.

You just watch the hand. Never. Because you're watching the ball. You're already late, right? Yeah. And so I learned that from Derek Thomas. I was like, how does he get out the ball so fast? My coach is out.

Oh, he's watching their hands. So I would in practice, we just study hands, hands, hands. And, you know, that's another thing on watching quarterbacks, right? Does he drop his hand? Does he have a tell? Like Drew Brees will have like on the past play, split sneaks back a little further. Right? So, you know, guys like that.

were instrumental and then you know massive fan of just Dolman I mean Dolman was another just he was light years ahead of his time and then you know during during the year like I said I would I would you know it was peppers it was it was to Marcus Ware

you know really try to watch as much as those guys Jason Taylor when he was playing of those long you know long leverage technique guys that are going to that are going to work that process and so but yeah there's there's so many great you know, there really is, I mean, Reggie White, I mean, you just want to watch him as a fan. I couldn't do anything, Reggie White.

I tried to throw a hump one time. I thought I blew my shoulder out. I was like, okay, that's not for me. For me, we're to put that one in the bag. But, yeah. You just described it in like a poker player way with the tells, man. It's really like reading someone in a poker table. It's like a chess game, man.

And when you find that tell, you don't want to let the opponent know you got it. It's like rounders. And the silent count is the best. And, you know, we picked up on a. the silent count tell playing my, I guess my second year playing. And so I'm all excited. I mean, it was rhythmic, right? Head up, 1,000, snap the ball. And I get three sides to that game. So they asked me in the media afterwards and I'm like, man, my coach told us about the head bob. And I just spilled the bee. And he was like, you shut up. He's like, when you know something,

don't tell anybody they're going to change it. But yeah, silent count. And then I mean, things like a lot, you know, guys pick up at a morning now probably, but the play clock is your best friend, especially in like a two minute drill or anything. I mean, if that play clock's under three, I'm going on the first sound, right? If I'm off, it is what it does. Guys don't, you know, it's the other thing, too,

guys don't really realize hard counts in the red zone, especially like, I guess you'd call it lower red zone, Matt, right? 10 and in. 10 and in. If you get caught in a hard count down there, what, you're going to, you know, especially inside the five. I'm going on first time.

Yeah. I'm going on first out every time because it's, you know, they lose five yards. What, they gain a yard and a half. Yeah. So it's those vet things. And I had great vets that, you know, taught us along the way. But that's, again, little skill set you learn when I was watching and found out of these greats, right?

You look at Bruce Smith. Yeah, he had 200 sacks. But you know what's a disruptive place he had? You know, I mean, that Bill's team was great. You had Bryce popping. You know, Cornelia's been from a linebacker standpoint. So, you know, again, that question, I know, I just. No, that's awesome.

No, word, are you kidding? You're giving, this is like, this is gems right here. It's a, it's such. it's such a complex thing because you start going down and like one one guy leads you to the next guy right at least for me it did like you know you're like oh my gosh this dude and then you know you see something then then all of a sudden you hear deacon jones talking trash about reggie white and you're like now i got to see what deacon jones is all about and then you got me and joe green who you know you hear other players talk about him and i guess this is the first time i got to meet him

in person uh you know was in canton and the nicest guy ever you know he was fantastic but you hear stories about how he came in as a rookie, and dude were genuinely afraid of him. You just like to be able to instill that type of, you know, prowess and just control over another grown man is fantastic. So those are the guys I loved watching. Well, dude, we could, before we let you go, we could listen to, we could talk ball all day, man.

This has been awesome. We do want to switch to curling, okay? Yes, sir. I know you're into it. You are like fully invested, world-class curler. Just the backstory. And then also, I'm actually curious, will you go to the Olympics, the Winter Olympics coming up to see it to be a part of it? No, I won't.

So I won't be at the Olympics. Unfortunately, I had a chance to be on Cory Drobkin's team a couple years ago as an alternate and the USOPC blocked it. For some reason, I guess they didn't want to ride. I don't like them. Everyone's messing with my man, Jared, man. I wasn't a part of their program, right? That was the gist of it. And so, so, but you know, I competed in goodness.

So I put, long story short, I took a bet from a buddy to try to make the Olympics, right? We chose curling. I went and then once I'm one of those persons, like one time, I'm in, I'm all in. So I hired like Olympic coaches and, you know, guys to come out and train me here. Mark Bulger opened up a curling facility here in Nashville. Oh, yeah, I said we're just like just constantly rolling. And then, you know, COVID hit. So teams changed, but me and our skip, Jason Smith stayed together.

We played out a bunch of teams. I think I've been to four nationals. I think fifth was the top. We finished or something like that. And then, so then I ended up an opportunity to invest in a company like me, Kittal,

Hawkinson, and all those guys. We invested in this company up out of Canada who we own the Grand Slambs of curling, right? So Grand Slams of Curling are like the majors of golf, right? There's five advantageful to be top 15 in the world to participate in.

And so we had our very first Grand Slam in the United States ever. I summer up in Tahoe, Lake Tahoe. So I helped connect that and get that put together. So they called me. I didn't curl for a year after not getting put on Dropkins team. And then the format for the trials kind of changed. It used to be eight teams. Then it went to six.

And it was four. And so there was really no chance, but not having my team put together. And so everybody, the CEO is like, hey, you want to curl in the slam and Tom? And I'm like, well, yeah, I guess so. I haven't curled in a year. Or might as well go play against the best player in the world. Why not? Do you get nervous for that?

Is that like, like, is it the same feel as being on a football field? You know what, if you're a competitor, right? I always said there's two types of competitors, guys that are going to, you know, get punched in the face and keep coming back. And, you know, let's say, you have that you have that you have that self confidence that, hey, I can, I can figure this out and get done. And there's that, there's those guys and you know them. I mean, they're in the league. Like, they get shook, right? Or they, they, they, something bad happens about the highest level.

And they're like, oh, or they don't want to risk it because they don't want to expose themselves potentially not being good, right? So I've never had that. I don't get nervous in the sense of like, yeah, I'm just like, well, I'm just like, well, I'm. my whole philosophy, I will not be the reason we lose. And that's my mindset. Like, I might not be the best. My gang sure won't be the worst. And so, you know, I mean, now my team was pretty stacked.

My buddy Jason, he was the 2010 Olympian, and then Johnny Morris and Wayne Madda, who are two of the greatest Canadian curlers ever, both like multiple gold medals, like multiple world champions. But none of us had curled them like over in years. And so we're like, well, screw it. So we practiced for like three weeks. We went out there. First game. We tied the number five team in the world.

And that hung our hat on. And I played fantastic. I think I should be 9% for the whole tournament. But it was just a buzz sauce. So we played white from Scotland. They are the top five team of the world. Then we had to play a dean, the Swedish team, you know, who wins every gold medal, known to man.

And then we had to play Mallet, which is the number one team in the world. They just won the world championships. And we had some chances. But we had a last, I love girl. That's awesome, man. Swedes are the heavy favorites going into the Olympics, right? Is it evened out a little bit? Remember the Scots probably.

Yeah. So Moet's really, really good. Those guys. And these countries are putting, like building massive facilities now around Korea. Oh, I'm watching.

You've inspired. By the way, I'm going all in. It's so much fun. We got in because we're watching. I'm like, all right, most people start at the age of 40.

I'm like, cool how it works. The losers, the winners have to buy the loser's beer. I'm like, I'm at, let's work for me. So, but yeah.

So now we're kicking a league off. You know, we start, we start the Rock League right here after the Olympics, a little spring league for curling. But yeah, it's a massive growing sport. And the company we got, you know, is fantastic for the whole bunch of, you know, media, it's, you know, content around curling is great as well. So, but a great sport. It's fun.

It's, it's challenging. But yeah, that's how I got into it. And then I'm all it. Dude, can't thank you enough, man. This was truly as a guy, like I always admired watching as a fan. This was awesome to have you all. on and shit, man, you're going to get lots of calls. We had like, when are you going to come coach?

You're going to get lots of coaching calls after you're. I like, Sean, so no joke, Sean Payton a couple of years ago, we're on, we're in spring break. He was like, hey, you want to, you want to come coach in Denver,

uh, be a passenger guy. And I was like, like, what hours are we talking about? Yeah, I like my life. I like my life.

Does he give you special? Yeah, and what are the hours? And, uh, and he was like, well, typically, you know, I was like, yeah,

so he's like, well, it's like, it let's just bring you in you know a couple days a week you know we'll figure it out and you'll see if you like it and dudes are there to like 10 11 o'clock at night now i was like my kids like i put my kids to bed my wife's like we're not hiring and uh you know we've never had a babysitter or a name like we're not hiring them now like what no like we're not having other people drive our kids the sporting events because you're working until midnight and i so i was like i have no problem helping out

uh i love teaching the art of pass rushing um but the idea of having to be be there unless there was a head coaching job where I could set my own hours and everybody was home by five I'm good yeah well I appreciate you man can't thank you enough this is so fun my pleasure but I now I got I got to get your perspective though I'm at from college football though a I know why would Notre Dame not play why would they not play oh what the bowl game yeah yeah I don't know and then how do you correct the coaching situation I mean the NIL thing is but let's be honest it would precedent was set by no coach ever having to honor their contract. The lane, of course, absolutely absurd. I know.

And he's that, I mean, and I love Lane. I had Lane at USC and he's kind of done that everywhere. I think the biggest thing is like just the calendar, the way the calendar is set where you have these situations that arise and there's nothing you could do about it. Even like we're just talking about it this week, the national championship game was earlier, you know, earlier. And it was like three weeks off. And next year, the national title game is like January 25th weekend, which is like, it's absurd. So like the calendar, yeah, the calendar of like the coaching, the portal now, there's only one portal, which just closed earlier this month. But, but I'm with you, man, like the, the calendar. They're neat. What's going to happen, Jared, is there's going to be

a commissioner, just like the NFL. There's going to be a players union. And that's the way I think it all gets fixed. Some of all the other. And you heard what Utah is trying to do, right? Yeah. Utah was talking to, uh, private equity to come by a football team. Which is, yeah, it's, I will say this, though, it's all of this, like, kind of quote-unquote negative stuff, like, the game is still unbelievable. And the parody with Indiana, the parody has never been better, which I think is awesome for the game. But yeah, they need to fix some of the other stuff and the coaches and players leaving every year and all. They're just like thousands, there's four or five thousand kids that got stuck in the portal

because they thought they had another place to go at the end, which is sad. That never gets talked about, right? It doesn't, yeah. Because you're done then, right? You lost your scholarship from the previous school. Maybe you go to JC or maybe, yeah, it's just like it's, yeah, there's a lot, there's, there's a lot of negative. There's a lot of positive and hopefully we can kind of clean all that up. But yeah, man.

Appreciate your brother. Yeah, well, I'll be, I'll be looking to your tutelage to know what happens next. You guys have a good one. Okay. Annie Agar joining us, courtesy of Twitter. She always does grab a refreshing twisted tea today. Annie, I know for our listening audience, Annie is wearing a hoodie that looks like it's like a Michael Jordan Air Jordan, Jordan brand hoodie. Thank you.

And the jumpman is kind of Jordan love. So that's what we're doing here. I mean, it is a little love underneath. So it's literally Jordan love. So is this in response, whoever made this hoodie to the fact that Caleb actually has the football jump man? and this is a little NFC North rivalry. That fourth down throw. He looked a little.

Is that sour grapes? Caleb has the throw. You know, I'll just say I didn't show up on my TikTok shop until after that throw. So I don't know. Is that from TikTok shop? By the way, they get you every time. Every time. It's curated to just get those little things that you don't need, but you also need.

What do you mean? I bought this whole contraption. That's going to make my jaw strong. I have to like chew on this piece of rubber apparently. That's going to make my jaw stronger. That was an Instagram buy. I need to know. I feel like there's a whole story behind that

because I've never seen those before. Well, before we get to our twisted trivia, we got to talk about a couple of things today. First and foremost, is it now over for coaches to be first ballot hall of famers? And Bill Pollian, who everyone said was the guy who led this. It's a joke, by the way. That's a joke.

Doesn't Bill Pollyan kind of need to? to show his vote, though, to prove his innocence? Because everyone blamed him. And I was like, what do we mean? I voted for him. I need to know, and maybe you guys know or maybe Matt. What is the reasoning? Is it because of the whole, like, cheating allegation?

The flake gates, spy gate were apparently big. What would be their reasoning for not having him be first ballot? I listen to the shows. And our buddy, my buddy, Peter Schrager, who's awesome, kind of broke it down what he potentially thought that could have happened was. they vote like in a room, whatever they do, they vote. And based on the other people that were on the ballot, because he was a first ballot, I think it was like, you know, Roger Craig, there's some other ones that have been on the ballot before.

Yeah. He thought maybe that it's broken down by some of these people are like, well, Bill's going to be a Hall of Fame or no matter what. My vote this year is going to go for someone who's... Who needs it. Who needs it to get in potentially. Now, and again, there's like, there's no like morality. clause like there isn't baseball baseball obviously we know why some of those guys aren't in and probably will never get in football there's not and so i do think my just my opinion is there's probably some

people on there that don't like them there's probably some people on there that are going to use spy gate and i mean deflate gate's the biggest joke of all the time but spy gate like oh they cheated i don't i don't know that he broke it down that's like oh he's going to get in regardless he'll get the votes at some point my question to you guys is is this like is this like is this a one-time thing, or is this like one of these, like almost a coup to keep them out amongst people? Like, like Barry Bonds or A-Rod or some of these people, you know what I mean? Like, that's going to be fascinating. I want to believe what Schrager's saying, because it does make sense. Like, hey, this is this guy's last shot to get in or, you know. It makes sense.

So, okay. But like, but then, like, if you move the ball again on them, like the second time, I just think it's like, it makes it hard to really, not that we'll overla, but. It makes it hard to really, not that we overly care too much about the Hall of Fame as fans. But like it makes it really hard to take it seriously that, oh, so that guy's not a first ballot Hall of Famer. It makes it really hard to then look at the first ballot Hall of Famers and be like, yeah, of course. Like Tom Brady's going to be a first ballot hall of fame.

Well, that was how the people say was like, well, does that mean Tom Brady's not a first ballot Hall of Famer because of which he was a part of both of those things? Yeah. It's just, it's like setting it up for it's harder now in the future to explain everything. and give you a reasoning. Who has thought we live in a world where Bill Belichick's not a Hall of Famer and Shador Sanders are Pro Bowler?

Crazy. Wait, wait. That I don't even understand. And I know the Pro Bowl doesn't matter anymore and no one cares and guy. I actually, I think we said this off the air. Matt, I'm like, thank like, of course, like, don't play football when it doesn't matter.

Like, that was always a bad idea. It's crazy that went on as long as it did. But what's the meaning of this? I know, like, did so many guys say no that we got to like the 27th best quarterback How do you go to him? Like of all, I don't know.

I don't get it. So we used to, the whole pro bowl, it's changed now. But when I was playing, we would get a sheet of paper and it would be every team and we'd vote for the Pro Bowl. And it would be every team and like,

you know, whatever maybe or every position. And it'd be like the top seven or eight guys based on like tackles or whatever. And it was always, always like just a, a name. You had a name, you'd vote for him, right? So that's why a lot, which it was like, we were guilty of. We were just like, all right, middle linebacker, you got Brian Erlacker, or Ray Lewis. And it could have been someone that was like 150, like had the best year,

should have been a pro bowler. So the voting process was always just skewed. And then over time, just no one, like, it used to be in Hawaii. So you like, you could like take a family. And I know people went there like, oh, it was a great family vacation. It was just kind of like a getaway, right? And you play a little football, whatever. And, and, People stopped watching. The product was so bad. Now people just don't want to go. And they're just like, there's no incentive anymore for them to go.

Like, for what reason? It's in, I don't know. Is it in the city of where the Super Bowl is now? I think it is this area. It was like in Orlando or thing. And look, that's, and that's not Shador's fault. It's just the whole process of how this is being voted on is ridiculous. But it just no one really cares.

It shouldn't be touted as, like, you wouldn't say, like Tyler Huntley, pro bowl or Tyler. Like, it shouldn't be this high. That's why Matt, in our intros, we got to maybe stop listing how many times the player was named to the Pro Bowl. I know. Shador Sanders. Pro Bowl rookie football. Maybe it's a big incentive.

It kind of clicks an incentive. That's, I mean, maybe there's not necessarily for Shador, but like for other people to go. Is it a little bit of a troll? Like, all right, you know what? This kid got kind of taken through the ringer all year long. His name is thrown around. You know, put him in the Pro Bowl. Let's see how I mean, yeah.

It's just, it's kind of a joke. And it's also like, I don't know. It's, yeah. And I, you know, whatever. I don't know. It's crazy. Good for him. Now he needed. Annie, who are you pumped for now that we almost have every job secure except for what the Raiders are the rate as we tape this. Raiders. The last one.

Because. And the Cardinals. And the Cardinals. And the Browns, right? Browns just got Monken. They got Monken. Monkin. Yeah.

Yes. Monken. Just like an hour ago maybe. Probably why you guys were filming. Who do you? I mean, who are you just like, it's. It's almost like if you think of your videos as a show, right? Yeah.

These are your new cast members. So who are you most excited? Who are you most great way of putting it? Who are you excited and fired up to write for? I think you're going to, and I have the one I think you're going to get awesome stuff from. Oh, thank you. Hmm. The most excited about, I already have content for Joe Brady, like around Joe Brady.

So I think that hire is hilarious. Somebody tweeted out how funny would it be if he hired Sean McDermott as his new DC. hilarious. Just peak comedy. Yeah. So just the whole Bill's organization alone gives me a ton of content. And I'm a fan of Joe Brady. Like I think he's a great play caller, just as hilarious how, like somebody said, he's going to call. The first play of the season next year should be a screen.

But this man, nobody's going to keep him in check now to not call screens. He's going to call it every single play. So I don't know. I think that's going to be a fun one. Who are you thinking? I think you're going to get gold from Sala and Dable. Oh, yeah. a one, two punch.

I think you're going to get... They're both from New York, too. It's hilarious. It writes itself, essentially. I think you're going to get gold. And I think whoever honestly ends up in, you know, Vegas or Arizona's all... That's going to be the real comedian.

Yeah. Also, McCarthy. And I already have jokes written from McCarthy because of my years watching him. That's going to be peak, peak comedy. I think... I think Coobie. I'm going to get one of these jobs. He's got to, right?

Yeah. With the number one pick, you want to get an offensive. find a guy knowing, you know, you got the one pick. Who do the Cardinals get? I don't know. Nobody wants to go there. Right, because I know Shula was a big name, but the Rams defense has not.

If you look at the Rams defense like the last six weeks, it certainly hasn't been like a lockdown defense. All I know, guys, is Jonathan Gannon coming to Green Bay is going to be, hopefully it doesn't take the bus. It's going to be a great time. I'm very happy about that high grass. Cole just text us in our chat. Chris Schuller reportedly bombed his Steelers interview.

I do believe people throw interviews. I do believe, like, if that's not a place you want to go, you take the interview and you throw it. I know a couple people in the cycle that have been that have been in the cycle that were just terrible, terrible, terrible interviews. And the reason why they don't have a head coaching job, which I won't say on here, but I do know a couple names. Which I will text you about off the air.

If you don't do well in your interview, it's just bad. Like, like, so bad that you're like, wow, he cannot leave. our team. They could be a great coordinator, but yeah. Well, that's the same true, Matt, right? When you're in the draft process, when you go through your interviews, like, uh, if you kind of flunk your interview, it could really hurt your draft position. So it should be the same thing for coaches. Those interviews are, that's for another time, man. I was not a view. I sat with Sean Peyton and the Saints for like 30 minutes and just grilled me, dude. Is it like X's and O's grill or like personal life grill? I mean, we could talk about it. So it was, it was, it was, no, it's, it's,

Well, there were two. So, well, the Jets came out because they picked fourth. They ended up drafting DeBrickishaw Ferguson. But they came out for the weekend, like two days and interviewed me, private workouts, the whole thing. And we were probably three hours up on a board going through the playbook. And that was probably a strength of mine, like just retaining and all that kind of stuff. But then it's just like they just ask you oddball questions, man.

Like keep you on your toes. Like I remember, man. Jeannie asked me, like, what was the last book I read and just ran, just stuff. Like, like, like, I'll be drawn up plays. Like, hey, man, what was the last? What was the name of the last book you read? And like, I don't remember my answer. But, um, but anyway, no, I was, that Saints, it was, you're in the hotel and

Indianapolis and they, you know, you basically have scheduled interviews depending on, you know, where you're drafted or quarterback, whatever. And I had a bunch. And the Saints were picking second and they ended up picking Reggie. But there was real, like, they were real chatter to draft me because it was, uh, breeze, his shoulder and all that kind of stuff. And I sat in there as him and like their whole crew. And he was just grilling me about my entourage and the people around.

I swear to God, and the people around me. And why do you have a show by the way? Peyton, why do you have a quarterback coach and who's this agent you have? And like it was just bombarding me, dude. Like I got up on the board. And I did well. I was honest. But it was, yeah, it was just like, like, it was crazy.

I went out there too for a visit. Like, they really, they really did their homework on me as close. But why does your dad come to every game, that? Well, I don't understand. No, it's like, who are all these people around you? You got this guy, this guy, this guy. I'm like, I had like a quarterback coach and like, it was like my agent, but it was like, you know, it was the whole Hollywood thing.

They were just tearing me apart. Wow. That's wild. Anyway. Annie, that's good. That's, that's a good. I mean, you probably will thinking that, but like the interview process for some of these coaches interviewing draft.

I'd like to see Mike McCarthy in the room. Oh, yeah. Well, those guys, I mean, for the older school guys, they've been doing it for so long. Like, it's like they have their way of doing it. They've won, you know. But the new guys is, that can be nerve-wracking because you've never been, you've never been a head coach, you've never been in that situation. So you get all sorts of crazy questions, right?

That's wild. Especially in college, too. Now, college is crazy because the whole NIL is just a different world. Well, now I can't even believe. I don't even imagine what those questions are like. Jesus. Anyways. All right.

Should we, we have a little twist on the Twisted T trivia. Well, yeah, since I've absolutely dominated this. I had not,

I did not dominate Annie, though. I did not dominate Annie. It was only two to one, I believe. But Jerry has been a distant third. I am taking over the duties, guys,

for Twisted T T T T T T Trio. This is the loser bracket. This is the loser's bracket. We'll go like a best out of seven with you, and then you guys can come back to the champ and see if you guys can beat me. There we go. But,

all right, we talked about Belich, a little. earlier. The theme. All right. 1996 Patriots. Oh, is not even fair for Annie? No, the year I was born.

That's the last time they played a Super Bowl without Brady and Belichick. Wow. Annie, if I, if you beat me here, I'm going to, I'm going to need a minute. No offense to you. We should, you guys, we should be all right here. Okay, you guys ready? Yep. Yeah. All right. First question.

Who was a safety and cornerback fans called the law firm. Oh, hold on. I got it. But I'm being smart here. The second I knew. The second Eddie said these are going to be easy.

I'm going to guess. Thai law and lawyer Malloy? Ding, ding, ding. Yes. Very good. Annie, you might have been sabotaged today. I might have. That probably.

Annie was like three years old running around. No, I was born. I was born. In 1996. All right. So, 1.0. J.

All right. Second question. Okay. You got this. Who did the beat in the conference championship to advance to the Super Bowl that year? The Patriots? Who did the Patriots beat in the conference championship to advance to the Super Bowl in 1996? I know in 2015.

Let's take a stab. Let's see. That, uh... I think I know it. Broncos? Okay. Nope, Annie, you get a chance or you get a hint. Ooh.

I'll throw some out there, the Colts. Nope. All right, let's get a hint, Annie, you and I. I think I have a guest now, but. Okay. This team made the playoffs this year. Oh. I think I know it.

Anybody guess me? It's a sneaky one, I think. Jacksonville Jaguars. Yes. Mark Brunel. That was going to be my next guest. I think is Keenan McArdle or it might have been. Garard.

Oh, it probably was Brunel in 96, yeah. AFC championship game. Ooh, that was a good one. That was a tough one. Yeah, yeah. 2-0. You still got a shot here, Annie. Okay, ready?

Last question. Can't give this one. Who was the assistant head coach, defensive backs coach for the Patriots that year? Yeah. I'm guessing it's got to be like a, went on to become an awesome coach. Yeah. Debacks and assistant head coach? Yep.

And D-backs coach? Oh, this is going to be. while because we're going to know, right? Only. Assistant. Who? Can we get a hint or do we have to take guess first? You guys, well, you guys can both get a hint or

you can both guess. Let's get a hint. Because I'm blanking. I was like, yeah, what team? If someone who's probably like a coach now from the Belichick. Well, no, he wasn't a Belichick guy. He no longer coaches. in the NFL.

This one, I mean, my brain is hurting. See you, Matt. So he became a head coach and he no longer coaches in the NFL. In 1996, he was the assistant head coach VB coach. Of the Patriots. The hint is he now no longer coaches in the NFL. So he coaches somewhere else. Is this like a super obvious answer?

You guys haven't even guessed one yet. I don't want to guess and sound stupid. I'm just trying to figure out who the head coach who I know who that is would have as his assistant coach. Is it Bill? Was he? Annie, you got to guess. Just guess. You got it.

Is it, did he just get rejected from the Hall fame? Was it Bill? Was he a debate? Oh, wait. Just say a name. I think you got you. Bill Belchick. Yeah.

Cracked it before. My God, guys. I didn't want to sound stupid because of all the name. I was so obvious. Well, he's no longer coaching in the NFL. He's coaching college. Wow. Okay, two one.

The pictures matter here. Okay, the pictures matter. We close in the eyes. We got two photos now. We will close the eyes. And as soon as the picture pops up, I will tell you to open your eyes. Right now, Jerry's up two to one. Oh, God.

This sounds like a meltdown now. I'm going to lose two in a row. Close your eyes. The first picture and open. Oh, wait. Oh, oh, wait, be smart. Be smart. Be smart.

Come on, Annie. Is that Domingo Ryan's? Domingo Ryan's. I'm thinking you doing a coach? Are you doing it? Is it coaches still? Bro, it's still theme. 1996 Patriots.

Oh, 96 Patriots. Annie, you get a free guest here. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, she gets a free guest. Damn it, I know it. Come on, Annie. Oh, damn. You got to stay alive.

I'm not. I'm going to give Annie a hint. Give her a hint because I got it. He was a running back. He was a running back. He was a great running back. Great running back. Oh, no.

For the record, I thought, in my mind, we were still doing coaches. That's why I look. I was like, it's a coach. I don't know. All right. I'm going to know, but I don't know. Taking it to me. Yeah, Jerry.

For the win, it's Curtis Martin. Yep. Dang it. Yeah, Curtis Martin. No, I would have gotten that. Okay, let's put up, close your eyes. Let's do one more for points totals. Let's put up the last picture, even though Jerry's up 3-1.

Shoot. All right. Pictures up. Go. Willie McGinnis. Yeah. Annie, you got set up, Annie. You can't go.

At least I didn't get swept. I will say this. It is easier when you have the questions and it's funny to know. I think that Willie Mac is easy. And I thought the hardest one was probably the Jaguars who they beat. See, but I do remember that game because I remember being shocked at the Jaguars who were only a few years old at that point. We're already in the AFC. BFC championship game.

Annie, you got set up. Like, that'd be like doing 1979 trivia for me. I'd just guess Terry Bradshaw for every answer. Terry Bradshaw. Me and Joe Green. Terry Bradshaw. Me and Joe Green.

No, that is a fun one though because that, yeah. Well, they did go on to like careers still later and like you've heard the names. But yeah, you got you got set up there, Agar. If I were you, I'd file a grievance off the air because that was rough. I guess it. I like you too. I don't take a technicableness. You know, I'm just kidding.

I'm so mad I said D'Amico Ryan. D'Meco Ryans, dude. That didn't even look like to be in my mind. I thought we were like still doing coaches. So I'm like, who's a current coach now? I should reset it up as in the 90s. It is very interesting how your brain works when it's trivia quick like that. Like you just go to whatever, I don't know, whatever the thought process is.

Wow. How's a tough one? Good job. Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, back in the wind column. I need something. I need something. I'm glad I could. I'm glad I can help with that, Jerry.

I'll take the loss. It's a battle for second place. So, Annie, you have a week now. Next week we'll do some Super Bowl picks within the three of us, okay? Maybe we'll even throw something on the line because we'll probably get to see each other out there in Santa Clara. Guys, we won't be sick of talking about the Super Bowl yet. No, I'm trying to avoid all. Like, I don't know.

I'm just trying to avoid all of it until we get to like Wednesday of next week. Yeah. Lock back. All I know is like Radio Row by that Wednesday or Thursday, the guys are so over. the two days. Because there's only so many storylines you can go with, you know, and I credit the media because it's tough. What do you think we'll see more?

We'll end on this. What do you think we'll see more? The Malcolm Butler, the interception, or Sam Darnold, like, seeing ghosts versus the Patriots, like, that shot of him on the sideline where he's like. I think we'll be more sick of the Malcolm Butler

the whole one year line. I've already seen it a million and one times on Twitter and everybody saying, Like, Marshawn Lynch is going to have another. Yeah, Marshawn Lynch is going to have another chance to just go after your boy, Pete. And by this time next week, Jerry should be a new dad once again. That's right. Any moment.

I forgot. How is she doing? Any moment. She's doing great. She's like ready to get this party started. I'm like, yeah, I got to get to Santa Clara. I know. You're like, it's happening.

And then all of a sudden you're like, yeah, be ready and then all of a sudden it happens you're like holy shit would you go if she if she goes into labor before like she has the baby before yeah there's like a cutoff date uh basically like if there's no baby by like February 3rd 4th she's like past her due date then I'm not I'm not gonna risk it yeah but if happens in the next couple of days and as long as everything goes well and I do have to make sure that she's feeling okay yeah Yeah.

You know. That's wild. Let's wrap it up. Let's wrap it up. Shoutouts, Twisted Tea. Thank you. Annie, thank you very much. Of course.

We're out. We'll see you guys next week. We're definitely going to make some super well picks. I'm going to win some money next week. I'm going to win some money. I need to see Hawks to win, baby. Yep. Same.

Let's go. Let's go.