Throwbacks with Matt Leinart & Jerry Ferrara - The Hustler That Changed The AAU Game Myron Piggie

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

Myron Piggie joins the show to discuss his life as a hustler turned legendary AAU coach that eventually landed him in federal prison as the first person in American sports history to be federally indicted and imprisoned for paying amateur players. He’s covered it all in his new book “The Hustle(r) That Changed The Game," and here Myron recalls his glory days coaching the Children’s Mercy Hospital 76ers featuring the Rush brothers, Earl Watson, Korleone Young and other Missouri hoops legends, his prison sentence and the possibility of a pardon in the future. The man dubbed “The Godfather of AAU Basketball” also talks about rubbing shoulders with sneaker giants Sonny Vaccaro and George Raveling, cursing out Michael Jordan and so much more from his notorious run amongst hoops royalty and much more.   Later Matt and Jerry are joined by Annie Agar for a special Thanksgiving round of Twisted Tea Trivia and they also pick their choices for the best high school hoopers they ever saw.   New episodes of Throwbacks drop every Thursday. Make sure you’re subscribed on YouTube and following on all podcast platforms. Also, make sure you’re locked in on social @ThrowbacksShow on all platforms for highlight moments, bonus content, and to engage with the guys & the Throwbacks community. (http://throwbacksshow.com/)      A big thank you to our sponsors:    Wendy’s: Join Team Tendy’s and enjoy a line-up like never before. Crispy. Juicy. Tendys Now at Wendy’s. https://www.tendys.com  Twisted Tea: Grab a Refreshing Twisted Tea Today.  https://www.twistedtea.com/locations  DraftKings: Download the DraftKings Sportsbook App and use code TB. Bet five bucks and get 3 months of League Pass plus get $300 in bonus bets if your bet wins. In partnership with DraftKings - The Crown Is Yours.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And I got a call from some people. And they was like, man, we're never, ever, we're never, ever, if you say this out loud, we're going to deny it. If you bring your kids to ABCD camp, you'll walk out of New Jersey with a million dollars to cash. all right welcome to another episode of throwbacks don't forget to go give us a like a follow subscribe on youtube it's free so don't be afraid to hit that button mattie ice how we do what up you're you're you got a tremendous week going on i'm living i'm living every husband

father's dream you're macaulay cullough oh yeah i'm home alone dude i've been home alone since saturday night um yeah it's it's glorious i miss my kids i miss my wife they're in for Thanksgiving week, big family reunion, doing it right. Obviously, I can't go because I have work and all these things. But, man, it's like, I'm not sure there's anything better, dude. I'm not sure there's anything better

than a house that is silent. I think that's the one thing I would ask for for my birthday or Christmas would be... Well, it's not... Look, it's not so much that, like, you're doing crazy. It's just... You're right. It's the silence. It's the peace and quiet. It's just peace and quiet, dude. I mean, it's just literally waking up. And by the way,

Every morning, I haven't slept in. Like, I don't sleep in anymore, so that's fine. But it's just waking up, making my coffee. I'm not in a rush to do anything to get the kids going. Obviously, Josie does a lot. But I like mornings are chaotic, as you know. Like, you got two boys. Like, it's just chaotic.

There's a lot going on. There's like, yeah, like, we got a time to brush your teeth. We got to take, you know, like, there's just no, there's no rest. That is the greatest part. Like, I've worked out multiple times a day. I've sonatted it up multiple times a day. You mentioned Orlando. and you sent chills through my spine

because I just got back from Disney World. And I need what you have. I need like seven days or six days alone to recover. Well, what you did is just dad of the year stuff. I mean, it's just legendary stuff to go to Walt Disney World for a week. Well, I posted that picture of me napping at the bippity-bop-di thing

where they made my kids into nights or whatever and the girls get. And I put it out and it got a lot of views to the point where like the next day at one of the parks. I had dads coming up to be going, keep it going, man. Like, they were cheering me on, like Rocky Training in Philadelphia. That was one of the funniest posts I've ever seen.

I was like, oh, dude, Jerry isn't bad right now. And that wasn't a setup. I was sound asleep. Might have even been snoring. I was out cold. Yeah, I mean, good for you. Hey, listen, also, big week. We just celebrated your birthday.

Yeah, I just turned, uh, 46. You were on the back half to 50, bro. It's one of those things, too. Like, do you know how I know I'm old? Do you know when you go book a flight and you got to scroll down to the year you were born? I used to be like two scrolls.

Maybe two and that. Now I'm like scroll. You just go one big one and it just rolls. I'm like, God, I'm still not at 1979 yet. This is crazy. That's how I know I'm old. You're 70s, dude. November 79.

So I saw the last month and a half of the 70s. So I guess technically. Listen, you don't look a day over 40. You got a great family. You live a young life. You golf. It's good, bro. You're living the dream.

You're living the dream. Happy birthday, buddy. I appreciate that. We have an interesting show for you now because we're speaking of, you know, I'm 40, 6 years old. Grew up in the 80s. And then obviously the 90s were where I really started like watching and loving sports, all sports and playing sports. You a little bit younger, but similar.

We have someone that in the 90s, early 2000s, is, I guess you would say he's self-proclaimed, but I think we could all proclaim him, the godfather of AAU, Myron Piggy. Yeah. What does that name mean to you, Matt? Have you ever heard that name before we're having him on the show today? I heard the name.

The answer is yes. Could I tell you a detailed, you know, version of, like, who we know. I've been around the AAU game enough playing when I was younger with, like, the Pump Brothers, who everyone knows and people. Pat Barrett, who's a local, like, who's a legend in the A.U game back in the day. And then I'm obviously with Cole and just that experience. But really fascinating story about Myron Piggy, who ended up going to jail for this, kind of changed the game, you know, and his upbringing was crazy.

I'm excited for- Kansas City. Yeah. I'm excited for people to hear this story. He's got to book out, you know, what we're going to talk about. and now with like nil and uh you know athletes being able to get paid for all of these things it's just a fascinating like back then to now and the shift and all of this and he was really like you said like the godfather of a u basketball and helping kids and all this and i'm i'm excited to

kind of hear his story you know yeah the name of the book is the hustler that changed the game myron piggy co-wrote it and uh look i remember crumming up in new yorker i mean AAU Basketball, New York City is one of the mecas. I mean, I'm sure even L.A. too, obviously, has had unbelievable players. I, you know, everyone from Stefan Marbury, Kenny Anderson, like, all these guys. Like, the gauchos were really the team in New York. I think they're still going on that they were essentially high school NBA teams. So to hear Myron's story.

And also, like, you mentioned something interesting. I want to respectfully ask him. It's like you kind of went to jail for. a lot of things that are now very, very legal. And that's got to be a frustrating thing because you, and when you even start to see some of the numbers reportedly that, and we'll ask him about this, that's like he famously had the Rush brothers, Kareem Rush, Geron Rush, some of the numbers that these guys were paid, air quotes,

I don't think he never fully said, you know, $2,700, $200, $200,000, and somehow he got connected to a wire fraud, mail fraud. We're going to actually ask him what he officially went away for because it's kind of murky. I think it was one thing to get out of another. But anyway, excited to talk to him. I mean, his story, they'll probably make his story into a movie one day. I'm like about halfway through the book. So I don't want to get too many spoilers for him, but the book is outstanding.

It's definitely one of those things that might be turned into a movie or a doc, like you said. And yeah, I'm excited. So don't forget to right after Myron, we have Annie Agar, joining us. We'll do some more twisted trivia. Maybe Matt will go easy on me for my birthday week because he's been... You know what the kids say? I've heard like several, like 18-year-old athletes...

Six-seven? But like, belt to ass. Oh, belt to ass is a new one. My nephew hit me with that with Matt. We're going to play Maddeny. He sent me a belt emoji. I'm like, belt to ass. I'm like, stop. Yeah, that's like... That's not necessarily like a new one, but it is...

No, but the way they specifically say it. More people say, yeah. Yeah. So hopefully you won't go belt to ass on me this week. I'll keep it easy on you. All right. And before we bring on Myron Piggy, because this is related to his story, let's do our Wendy's. It's not the fresh take of the week anymore.

We switched it up. It's basically we're joining Team Tendies and we're joining a lineup like never before. Crispy Juicy Tendies now at Wendy's. So thank you for sponsoring this segment. Matt, it got me thinking since we have Myron Piggy on AA basketball, high school sports. You've played at every single level, the highest, some of the highest levels, me, not so much, but I've seen a lot. Who is the best, whether it's AAU or just high school in general, the best high school AAU athlete you have ever seen? Well, I'm going to give you two answers.

One, I'm just going to shout out Coa Pete, starting freshman for Arizona. He played with Cole's team a couple years back in middle school, A, B, C, C, made hoops. whole deal. Then I was like, this dude is going to be a top 10 pick in the NBA draft, and he's certainly going to do that. So seeing him in person play with my son was awesome. The greatest high school basketball player that I ever saw in person was Shea Cotton. Shea Cotton was a 6-5 lefty. I saw him play as a freshman. He was the same year as my brother. So he was 16 years old. I was 10 or 11. My brother played basketball. This was Modder Day when modern day was a powerhouse they won national championship with miles simon they won with reggie

geary those teams they won a couple championships in the 90s um this kid was a freshman starting on modern day averaging like 25 a game which was unheard of it was modern day was like duke right like everyone averaged 12 points and no one ever like you know what i mean they were so many good players um i mean the stroke he would take off from like mid free like mid key dunk on people he was the greatest and i would just finish this by saying i think there's there's pods out there where like Paul Pierce and all the local, like Paul Pierce went to Englewood, like Tyson Chandler, all of the local kind of L.A. legends would say the same thing. They're like, bro, Shea Cotton was just different. He was a beast. And I think he ended up going

like to like, I think he transferred out of modern day. Ended up going to like Long Beach State to play with his brother for a period of time and just never, I don't like never made it. And it was one of those things like, man, like he was the greatest, one of the greatest athletes I'd ever seen in person. Well, that's something you always talk about that stays with me. is, you know, all these guys are great. And then you look at a guy like Shea Cotton, who at the time, you'd think this guy's a shoe in for the NBA and it just doesn't happen.

And it's not for a lack of talent. You cannot say Shea Cotton did not have the talent. So many other factors. And that's going to kind of coincide with mine because, well, my honorable mention, I saw him in high school, not AAU, and I got a close look at him because our school were rivals were Stefan Marbury. And it was just so clear that this guy is way bad. And my school was really good.

And his school was really good. He was significantly the best player on the court. Similar to, like, LeBron's right, they had to start putting Marbury's games at MSG. That's how many people were trying to come see his games. They moved them to freaking Madison Square Garden. But my number one, the best player I've ever seen, and I saw him on the AAU side,

the Nazi's high school games, Felipe Lopez. And youngsters out there, If you don't know who Felipe Lopez is, go do a little Google YouTube deep dive. So I went to a gaucho's famous AAU team that I'm sure Myron Piggy knows well about. I went to a gaucho's practice one time. I was a little younger.

And they laid out like, I think, 20 balls in different spots all over the court, like the elbow, the three point line, the corner. And they were doing this drill. And Felipe Lopez was running up and back, grabbing each ball, shooting it. And the dude went 20 for 20. He had every shot of every ball that was placed on that court.

And he, you know, local story, Dominican kid from New York. So he had to St. John's, right? Then he went on to, he played at Rice University, went to St. John's. He stayed home essentially, you know, Bronx, Queens. He stayed home. Went to, and good St. John's career just didn't, his game didn't translate to college. And he got drafted. He played in the NBA for quite a while.

But you just, he was up there with LeBron in the sense of a high school. athlete at that time. So what, like, out there too, like Sebastian Telfer was the other one, right? New York kid. Marbury's cousin. Marbury's cousin. I'll tell you what. I had a, I had a conversation with Luke Walton once, who was, you know, on our pod last year and a good friend. And I played, I remember playing him in the rec league, like a really competitive rec league and he was getting 30 a game. It wasn't even close. And like playing against like a couple Drew League players. And he goes, Matt, the difference between like, like, he said the NBA. And it's like football, too. It's hard. But like the talent only gets you so far, man. It's like the mental part. It's the grind. It's all the other little things that you have to do.

Because I'm sitting there watching this kid. I'm like, God, this kid is good. And he's like, yeah, dude. But he's like, there's a million of those kids. They just won't make it because they don't have the mental. They can't, like, they're just something missing, you know? And you see that. It's unfortunate.

But I was like, damn, dude. Like basketball's got to be another level. Wow. Shoutouts to Wendy's. We were officially on Team Tendies. And let's get to. man She caught.

I want to see this. I want to know what Shea Cotton's doing now. I wonder if Meyer Piggy knows that must know of Shay Cotton shortly. I'll ask them

I'll guarantee that's the 90s. She was the man on the circuit. Let's bring on the godfather of AAU. Hey, so we're happy

to do this man and just shoot the shit, tell your story. Anything you want to get it, just go and, and yeah, man,

we appreciate you coming on. Yeah, thank you. I'm open book, man. I'm open book. Yeah, no,

I know. I'm open book. I just, you know, it's just a blessing, you know, to be able to really kind of, you know, get, you know, get this, get this story out, you know, we, we, we, we, we, we very, very pleased to be on your show. And, yeah, I mean, we came, when we came around, when we came along, it was, New York Riverside had the best powerhouse team at that time. And that was, Ronnie Ortest, Elton Brand, Lamar Odin, Jesse, and them boys, them boys were monsters, man. And they just, we brought them, we brought them in Kansas City for a tournament. And them dudes smashed us by 50. And your team was no joke, I'm guessing.

No, but our team was younger, but they still weren't no joke. But they smashed us on our home court by 50. And when I, when they smashed us by 50, that's when I had a, I had to regroup, man. I'm like, man, I've got to go out here and recruit some players to play against these big boys. And that's what we did. We start, that's when I started going out recruiting. But New Rock Riverside was the powerhouse then.

205 and three years. Was that your record? 205. Dang. And one of those five is the Artest game, I'm guessing? Yes, that was the first, that was the first whooping we got. So, all right, so you get beat down by Artes, and then you're going to start recruiting. what I want to ask. I'm halfway through the book, obviously, but I know a lot of the story because

I knew about it before the book, and the book is unbelievable. Congrats to both of you. And we're going to talk about it. But when you make that decision, okay, I'm going to go start recruiting. Now, this is, there's no social media. There's no YouTube. There's none of it. You can't just sit in your home and scroll through. You have to get out and they're, like, how are you finding players? Obviously, there's word of mouth, but you got to go beat our test in Elton Brand. You got to widen the search a little bit. Yeah, well, what we did was, we got on we got we we do it was a little internet and you know like back then you had guys that had um they had them uh what you call them uh service the recruiting service there yeah so you

go on the recruiting service and see who was who was the top players but what we did was we had an unlimited budget so we would go up there if if i need a big man what i would do is i would go out here and um see who the top big man in the country so what What I do is I would fly out there and see if they was available, if they were available, I would bring them in for practice over the weekend and then I would test them in the tournament. And if they weren't good in that tournament, then we would just, no, we can't do this. So that's like a tryout essentially. It was like a tryout because playing against them boys was, man, it was crazy.

But one thing I have to say, I did, was able to put a team together. and we played New York Riverside two weeks later in University of Washington, D.C. And we end up beating him by 7. So we turned that thing around real quick. That's real quick to go from losing by 50 to win him by 7. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I went out and got some, I went out and got some players, man. I'd be curious, Maron, of then, you know, that time in your life as A.U., you know, the godfather and putting these teams together and we were just talking before this. Like, I've experienced that with my oldest son, Cole. He's going to be at SMU next year playing football,

but he was a big hooper, like, did the whole, all the circuits that you were a part of and all that. And I used to see kids, like, the recruiting process. I used to see kids, like, play for one team and go play for another team in the same tournament and go play for a third team in the same tournament. I'm like, what the shit is going on? Like, this is wild.

is, what was the biggest difference? Because I'm sure you still follow the AU and you still know a lot of these kids. Like, what was the biggest difference back then as opposed to now, you think? Well, back then was, it was more, it was different because it wasn't no Nike teams playing in Nike tournaments. Adidas team playing Adidas tournament.

Rebop team playing a rebod tournament. It was that everybody played everybody. You know what I'm saying? So the difference was, too, where it wasn't no parents involved a lot. Interesting. You know, so where it's parents now involved because parents are paying kids to train their kids. Yep. So now they're spending money.

So now parents got a mouthpiece. Back then, parents wasn't not, we wasn't not, parents were not paying to be in that, in that, in that, in that, space. So, like, I never had parents come in my gym. I would have my parents to drive my kids off. Which is how it should be, yeah. And if you ever came to me about playing time, then you take your kids and go somewhere else. Right. It was about putting a system together. And the kids learn how to play basketball. Then now kids is looking at when the parents don't, when the kids ain't planned, the parents going there and talk to the coaches. The system is a whole different system now. And when I travel, my parents didn't travel with me. We travel, you know, they put

their kids in my hands. Yeah. And it was my responsibility to teach them kids as young man how to be, you know, try to get them to be men. But the whole system today is Nike, Nike, Adidas plan Adidas, Rebos playing Adidas, Rebos playing I don't even know if it's everybody, I don't even know if it's everybody, the parents got to say so now. Where back then the kids, that's what made the kids tougher and stronger when the parents wasn't involved. And I'm not knocking the parents. You can because I'm one of those and I tell them, I said, I said, dude, I love, like, I wish we have more of you in today's world because it's such a different thing. And I want to, like,

your story is remarkable because I've I just I've been in that world I've just seen a lot of stuff and you talked about the kids and you obviously left such a positive imprint on all of the kids that came across your program because there's quotes out there all these players saying like what you were able to do for them this book the hustler that changed the game and your experience and we're going to dive into the story um why for you is it important to kind of get this out now and tell this story like what What do you want to accomplish telling this story, Myron? Well, what I wanted to accomplish was, you know, and this story was that back then when we was, when I was involved in AAU, it was different because we used to travel and be in five-store hotels.

I mean, we traveled. We had the best of everything. But when the kids came home, them kids went back to the ghetto, to the hood. them kids didn't have gas in their houses they didn't have lights on they didn't even have food to eat you know what I'm saying so my job was I'm not going to put you out there and you're going to travel and you're going to live big for three days Friday, Saturday and Sunday then you come back home then you got to get up there and you don't know if your next meal I couldn't do that so that was my job as a coach and I basically was kind of like a dad

to make sure when they went home, they was able to have lights, gas, and food. And it wasn't about paying kids. It was about just helping kids that wasn't able to go home like, me and my son, when we left, I go home, I got everything. They didn't have nothing.

So it was important for me to get this story out where it was like, oh, he was paying kids to play basketball. No, I wasn't paying kids to play basketball. I was just trying to help kids to get out of the hood because I used to dominate the hood and I knew what the hood was and a lot of them kids weren't built to be in the hood

because they couldn't survive it. Also, too, I imagine, like, I guess the question is, too, so where were you at when you kind of made that decision? You talked about, like, you lose to our test and all that, but you were already in the AAU space. Where were you at? When you made that switch?

in your life into AAU basketball? What was that turning point for you? You know, I'd just be honest. I really never made a full switch. I was still dipping and diving in the streets. Right. But I had a son. My son was in that era with Geron Rush

and Corley-on Young and Corey McGettie and Mike Miller. So what I was doing was that AAU team was really driving. dropped in my lap because I was a parent and I went to a game and the guy who used to coach him the sponsor fell out with him so we didn't have a coach and then the parent was like well let mine coach and then when I got when he got dropped in my lap my hope I was going to put my program like my demeanor on the streets if I'm a top on the streets I got to be top in in this field too that's that's how I was thinking you know so you

yeah. No, I'll say you mentioned earlier, you talk about Nike plays Nike, Reebok plays Reebok, something that's in the book and you talk about a little bit is you yourself found yourself being courted at one point, right? By Nike and Adidas are getting pitched and, you know, I know as mentioned of like Sonny Vaccaro and all that. I'm fascinated with that, with that era, because I don't think we'll really ever see it like that again. Tell us a little bit about that time in your life where you have all these shoe companies wanting to be involved. And I I think you said publicly regret signing with Nike over Sonny Vaccaro. Is that true?

Did I get that right? That's a true story. When I took over, I had took over in a, and it was later, the season, and the AAU season, the first year I took over, it was in the end of the year. So the next year it started. Then I started getting calls from Jim Herod Jr. and Sonny Baccaro and George Ravlin. So Nike stores, you know, they wanted one of us to wear their gear. And then all of a sudden, when I started talking to them, I used to go home, and I had boxes and boxes of gear on my porch and in my yard.

Now, I'm living in the hood now, and I'm coming home with all these boxes in my yard. Now, if I was somebody else, them guys would have took them boxes out of that yard. Right. They weren't taking it out of your yard. Yeah, but they weren't going to do that. It just, that wasn't happening. So I had a conversation with, no, I was quoted real heavy. I was quoted, they was, they offered me, they offered me so much.

And as of the day, I send Sunny McHurrurr scriptures every morning. And he respond back to me every day. Hey, man, we still talk. Wow. But it came down to, I had told Jim Hare, because he was at Reebok, I was like, you know, and I always asked the kids. I was like, what do you y'all want to wear? So, you know, kids don't want Nike.

Of course, they don't want Reebok, that's for sure. So, so it was, it was funny. They were like, coach, we are wearing this when we get playing ball in the gym, but we're not wearing this on the circuit. That's so true. It came down to Sonny and Raven. and Sonny

had Sonny wasn't never in the conversation but he had people and it was beginning to be Nike camp and ABCD camp and I got a call

from some people and they were from Sonny's camp and they was like man we're never ever we're never ever if you say this out loud we're we're going to deny it you know and he was like

Like, if you bring your kids to ABCD camp, you'll walk out of New Jersey with a million dollars in cash. What year is this? This is 90s, right? Yes, it's in the 90s. And the next day, Rabin and called me and flew me out to Indianapolis. That's what Nike camp was. and we sit there and we talk we talk true story he sit down and he started saying piggy

this is my first year coming to Nike I need to put Mikey Nike back on the map if you help me out man you uh we'd take care of you and everything and this guy got him on his knees and cry now I'm not prejudiced but to see a black man like that getting on his knees crying knowing that he needs you

I turned a million dollars down to go to Nike to help him out and that was one of the worst decisions I ever made because Sonny was always loyal to his people ravelin what and at the end of the day

my kids wanted to wear a jump man and they were just us and Riverside was wearing jump man at that time so they gave me all the gear that I wanted travel anytime I wanted to travel they gave me everything that I needed and I decided to go with rap than Sonny

and I'm gonna tell you how good Sunny is today me and Sunny still talk today and he don't never hold that against me. But that hurt me, man, because I thought Rabin was going to be loyal to me. Rest his soul, rest in peace. But he wasn't, he wasn't loyal to me. Is that one of, you think that's one of the,

I think you've been quoted, say you don't have a lot of regret on how, like, is that one of the biggest regrets? That was, that was, in AAU, in AU, that was the biggest regret. Yeah. That was my biggest regret. Just because, just because, I mean, kind of laid it out, just because you thought George was a certain way it was going to be this way, or was it, I'm assuming it, I mean, a million dollars is a lot of money back then, and that could do a lot of things, but is it because you, I mean, you just maybe had blinders on, you didn't see it?

I didn't see it. I didn't, I'm new in the game. Yeah. I'm new in the game. I'm up here trying to be loyal to my, and again, I'm not prejudiced. But I see a black man trying to raise something, and black educated men trying to do something. And when you get on you and you start crying,

and I mean, he actually got on his knees crying and begged me. Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard not to, it's hard to turn that down. You know, Denny's like, I give all your kids all the gear you want. You know, we are, we, um, uh, I give you $50,000 a year. Uh, soon you bring the kids, Nike flew in, gave me $50,000. check. Every year, every summer, they gave me a $50,000 check. And then I had all the gear I won't. All the kids never ever, I had enough gear to, to, to, um, clothe 20 organizations in Kansas City.

And it's being safely stored in your yard because nobody was going to touch it. No, but it was going to be right. No, nobody going to touch it. No, nobody was going to touch it. No, nobody wouldn't, Nobody's going to touch it. And it came to the point where I would come home and my wife was like, Marr, what is, she got mad because we looked like we were, like we was in a junkyard or something. You open it up a store?

Yes. You know, but I regretted that because you never heard nothing bad about Sonny taking care of his people. And then even me and the pump brothers that got together and we talked. back then, and I was thinking about really doing it, but Rab, my biggest regret was what Rab was my kids was important to me. And I had the number one, number two, and number three

kid in the country. At that time, Rad was telling me that, and Trace Meagrety had just came out. So Nike didn't have no high school kid coming out. At that time, then they was like, well, Corley Young going to come out at high school. So I transferred Corleone out of Wichita East, and I put him in Hard Grade Military Academy. And him and my son went there. So my understanding was that Corley Young was going to be Nike's number one guy,

and they was going to give me a three or four million dollar shoe endorsement. and he was going to be okay. But to come to find out that that rab was just blowing smoke on my ass. So one thing I were... And I had a kid, Corleone. Right. But Colillon could have went to college.

Yeah. And Quillian was more suited to go to college than Geron Rush. Because Geron Rush should have been the one that came out. Mm. And that's a whole different story. Of him not coming, of him going to college instead of coming out.

Yes. And you might, so that's the other thing. It's like you're not just simply coaching kids on the court, right? You mentioned what you're doing behind closed doors, trying to make sure that kids have stuff to come home to. But also you're, you're, and Matt and I were talking about this off the air. It's like the level of skill with some of the kids that you're coaching, you know, their lives are being decided. Some of these kids do have pro ability. So you haven't.

You're having those conversations with these guys about college or at the time going pro. And how much did these young kids kind of rely on you? Because I feel like you still talk to Sonny. We even mentioned Shay Cotton hit you up not that long ago. I feel like your loyalty is why. And people are still talking to you to this day. So it all connects. My kids was like my sons.

Like they was my son. I treated my kids like I treated my son me and Geron we still had the best relationship ever you know it was important to me I wasn't going to make the decision for the kid I was going to put their kids in the position

to go where he wanted to go because it wasn't me that had to live on a college campus right it was going to be them I had all the offers from big time coaches I could have, I could have took assistant coaches job. And honestly, if my kids would have been in KU, I would have been a millionaire a day. And by not them kids, not one of them kids touched KU, that's when the target got on my back.

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21-plus age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario, restrictions apply. bet must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days minimum odds required NBA league pass auto renews until canceled additional terms at dkngg.co slash audio limited time offer well that's the other thing too while you know and I'm reading the book and obviously knowing that you're coming on I still don't quite understand everything that you and I'm like air quoting like got in trouble and went away. for because and now you see like so much of this stuff nowadays is and we'll talk about that in a minute is not even an issue anymore. You know, I guess I didn't even really follow the

connection of you know stuff with players being the thing that you got in the trouble for, you know? The NCA... It seems very convoluted. It seems very convoluted. The NCA man, they

they figure I was getting too big and they figured I had. That's what seems like. They feel like I had too much power. And when the NCAA seemed that, and then I had a history, a street history. So it's easy to target someone like me, you know. But my kids, my kids was my kids. They was my sons.

I always told my kids, don't take a piece of bubble gun from nobody. Yeah. Because that's how much some kids meant to me. You know, and my kids never, ever took a piece of bubblegum to nobody. Then all of a sudden, it came out to that I was putting $17,000 in a shoe box, giving Geron $17,000, and give him Corleone on this and give him quality on that. I would just take care of my kids, like, on the weekends, when they wanted to go to a, a dance or a prime water, $15, $20, that's all.

Them kids couldn't handle that kind of money. But when they came after me, I couldn't fight it because of my history. Right. It's interesting because, you know, there's all these quotes. Like you were kind of the scapegoat, right, for NCAA, and they came after you and singled you out. And, you know, I lived that with Reggie, with Reggie Bush and USC. I'm sure you're familiar with,

that whole deal and i remember uh you know at the time we were you know we were on top of the world we're dynasty and all these things and people were sniff around and and you know reggie has a story and all those things that i love is my boy i always support him um but i remember kind of like s c kind of sticking their nose up to the NCAA and saying like you know fuck you guys you guys can't come after us blah blah blah and they were like oh yeah well we will and and to this point and it's just I just feel like there's a lot of parallels with YouTube. Just like to this point, I'm just like, man, like whatever Reggie did or didn't do like the Heisman, all of these things, it was complete bullshit when a lot of kids, a lot of

people were just kind of like you, like kind of trying to survive and all this. But like you just said, you know, don't take a piece of bubble going, man, I remember all the time. Like I couldn't, you couldn't go out to lunch with someone unless you knew him like prior to high school. Like there was this like your like relationship thing. I just found it interesting. There's a lot of parallels with, like, Reggie was a scapegoat for the NCAA at the time.

They made him an example, which I thought was just highly unfair, similar to your situation. Yeah, and I agree with that because Reggie didn't do nothing that nobody else did, but at the end of the day, I didn't either. It was just about me in Kansas City, taking care of my. kids, trying to make sure that when I go home and lay my head down on a soft pillow, I wanted my kids to be able to have the same comfort. And the kids were so important to me, it got to the point where college coaches used to come in town, big-name coaches that could stay at a five-star hotel and will sleep on my couch.

I mean, we'd sleep on my couch. They would come to my home in the hood and sleep on my couch and hang out with me. I mean, that's the impact you had, yeah. Yeah. You know, but nobody's NCAA didn't say that was illegal. You know? Yeah.

I had, I had, and I'm going to say this. I don't care what he say. I had Roy Williams, people would call me and say, hey, I'm going to be on those. applies it. Is it okay if Geron, you and Geron walk by? Okay, yeah, we walked by. We did that. I used to take Geron rush up to KU every day for three times a week to play against Paul Pierce and Jock Vaughn him. Was that illegal? The NCAA didn't say nothing about that because it was Roy. Different rules for different people, right, in that scenario?

People. Different root for different people. I mean, I had a chance. I mean, I walked to the airport one time. A guy came up and gave me $30,000 cash and said, don't look into it until you go home. This is for you. And you've never seen this guy before. Not ever, but then I know I found out who he was. Who he was, like Bagman, right? Yeah. And Matt, they come close to your home. I mean, shit. You could tell me. I mean, I was, yeah. Yeah, but no, it's not to be real. You know, George Rabbit was a USC guy.

Yeah. Jerome Stanley was a USC guy. You know Jerome Stanley, right? Yeah, well, I mean. Deshaun Johnson's agent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, Tim, Tim Floyd got in trouble at USC.

Me and Tim Floyd had a bad, bad breakup, man. Did you? I had nothing but a positive experience with him because I was there for a couple years with like Nick Young and kind of like that, like that era and then he got out, but yeah. He called me one night and said,

if Earl Watson don't see, I think he was at Howard State. Earl Washington don't sign with me. Earl Washington ain't going to be nobody. I was like, what the hell you mean? He ain't going to be nobody. He needed to sign with me right now. And then we kind of fell out

so Earl didn't go to Iowa State when he went there. I've said this story is I remember when I was I don't think I've ever told you this Jerry So like I remember I think I was done So like technically I didn't do anything wrong

But like we were SE I think it was Tim We were recruiting OJ Mayo OJ Mayo OJ Mayo was this shit He was a star And I'll never forget I was on a I think I was done

So I was getting ready to combine This was like maybe January February Whatever he was on like a little recruiting trip and I was in a golf cart with him I think it was his dad and someone else and they had asked me like hey we like we want this kid and I don't know what other shit happened outside of that other than I was on the golf cart and I said I said bro like you're one and done you know you're going to be one and done come here you're in L.A you're going to get whatever the hell you need and the conversation kind of went like that I was on a

golf cart showing him around campus and all this and he signed like a month later he's one and done and he left man yeah that was my only recruiting story that I had to help USC basketball. But that was when Floyd was there. Yeah, and Tim Freud, you know, he did what he had to do. But like I said, the only regret I had with the shoe company was they misled me on Corleone. And when they mislead led me on Corleone, that messed up their kid's life. And my whole intentions was never to mess up none of my kids' future.

And when Quirleyon got drafted, I had to fire Jerome Stanley. Then I had to hire the Posting Brothers with that. At that time, they had Penny Hardaway. He was the hottest thing in the NBA, Little Penny. And just thank God that the Posting brothers had a relationship with the Detroit Pistons. And that's how Coelion ended up getting drafted. Yeah. And then when I got.

When I got, when that indictment came down, Corleone and Geron didn't have no, they didn't have that, that foundation was gone. So they didn't have nobody that they, that could put that iron fists on and tell them, you need to go to class, you need to get in the gym or whatever. And that's what hurt them. So what's it like for you now when you see NIL? I ask Matt all the time, like, because I think a lot of people ask former players. like, I'm sure Matt, you've been asked a million dollars.

How much money would you have made, Reggie Bush? How much my millions, right? But I don't know if anyone's asked someone like you in that, you know, because, again, you were about guiding and now it's, you know, we're seeing college athletes in commercials and ads everywhere and everyone's making a lot of money. How does just, what's your view on it today when you look at the landscape? You know, I'm glad that it's like that because, Because by me getting hit back then and they changed all the A.A. rules, telling the piggy rules and stuff now.

It's important that the kids get what they got coming. But in my era, Geron, Corey McGettie, Earl Watson, Earl, and John and Collillon Young. They would have been millionaires, man. Before they didn't trust the campus. Yeah. You know. And it's, um, it's NIL, man. It just blew it away.

But by me having to go through what I had to go through, they didn't realize something that LaBarre Ball changed a lot of stuff. That's when kids started getting paid. That's a great point. That's a great point. Everyone thought he was crazy, but he. Yeah, but they were. wouldn't mess with him.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? They was able to do me because of my criminal history and who I was. But the NIL now, man, it's just, wow. I would have been rich, man. I would have been rich. Me and you wouldn't even talking today. We'd be talking to the restaurant when I run by you.

Hey, man, how you doing? Hey, you and me both, man, we'd be having a steak dinner with some nice, nice, uh, you nice, nice, uh, wine or tequila. Um, what, what would be, you know, you, you've, obviously, God, you, you've seen it all. You, I mean, going back to, to the 90s and now, what would be the best advice that you would give these young, young men and women, you know, all these. Young millionaires now, young, young millionaires. I, I, I'm actually curious, Peggy, because my son is, is kind of entering the NIL world with the RevShare model now and they're getting paid and all of these

things, what would be the best advice that you would give and now that parents are way more involved as now as opposed to then to these young kids? Well, one thing I was telling that they still have to continue to get in the gym and work out because you don't have high school kids coming out going to division one now. Sometime high school kids got to go to junior college now. That's division one for a lot of kids

because of the NIL. You know what I'm saying? Where kids were going, the top kids were going to different top universities, if you look at the college rosters now in basketball, you're really seldom will find a freshman on a roster. So what you had to do is you have to continue

to work hard. you have to continue to just stay focused. And then the parents got to the parents got to really think about their kid. Just because somebody knock on your door and your kid had a good high school, don't take the first money that come to you. Because once you take that first money

and tie you to lock yourself in to these agents and all them, you're not going to get out. And then when your kids get, when your kids don't make it, Then how do you look at your kid in their face and say, it's my fault? I think that kids today just need to be more patient. And I think parents today need to quit trying to live through them kids.

Because every kid is not going to make it. And every kid is not going to play college basketball. Every kid is not going to play college football. you're going to have to take a longer route now. You're going to have to go through junior college, and then you still might have to, then you might have to go to another college before you can get to the big colleges.

Piggy, I want to, before, you know, we'll wrap this up in a couple minutes. I want to ask you this. I was actually asking Jerry this, I was telling Jerry this. And I'm a curious your take. What separates, because you, I mean, elite athletes, basketball players are some of the most elite athletes in the world.

What separates someone from making it and not, in your opinion? Because we all know talent can only get so far, but you've seen it. And there's such a razor-sharp line between, hey, he was great, but he just didn't make it. What separates that kid today is if his parents step get out of the way and let somebody that knows the game just train. them and do like old school. When my kids came in the gym, my kids never touched the basketball

sometime for two hours. And there wasn't no parents, they weren't able to run to the parents and cry. If you really want their kids to make it, to separate it, you'll see the parents who would hand their kids over to somebody know what they're doing and get out of the way

from the kid that parents stay in the way. Those your parents in the way, and I'm not knocking parents because I know they love their kids. But you got to make your, you got to make that kid today earn everything that he got and everything that he get in that gym one-on-one without them in there watching and without them in there partique it. Because if it's in their heart, it's going to be in their heart. You can't, you can't, you can't meet your kid have heart. The kid either born with it or won it.

You can't pay for a kid for heart. You can't pay money and say, this kid going to get hard. Either that kid want it or he don't want it. And it's got to be up to the kid how bad he wanted because some kids will tell their parents, I don't want you there. And I think that's the difference today. Well said, yeah. So last thing I wanted to ask you, too,

I also, in addition to reading the book, I read the piece in the Kansas City Star, Toriano Porter. It's a great piece. I encourage everyone to read it too. And he said something very interesting, and I don't even know how someone would go about this. So I don't even know if it's something you have actually walked down that line. But he wrote and basically said his belief is you should receive a pardon because of how laws and rules have changed. Everything is now wide open.

Is that something that you've even looked into? Is there any movement on that? Because it left me with the article saying, like, yeah, he should get, at least look into it, get his day. You know, first of all, I'll just take a minute. First of all, I want to thank Mike Watson. Yes. Who wrote the book? Yes.

Because Mike Watson sit down and he played for me and my assistant for, you know, when he's younger. I want to thank Mike Watson because he took time and he investigated everything. Because when we broke this book, we wanted to make sure that everything was accounted. Factual, yeah. You know what I'm saying? And he did his, he did his due diligence. And if it went for God putting Mike in my life to write this book because I've been trying to get this story out for 20-something years.

And it comes down to by him writing this book and then Toyano writing that piece. Peace was great. Yeah, both are great. It was great. But when it comes down to a pardon or whatever, I feel that The only reason they was able to do that because I feel that they gave me a life sentence. And when I say a life sentence, where if you hit me with $350,000 restitution, how would I pay that now unless I go back selling dope?

And right now and today, if it wasn't from Mike Washington writing this book and it's out there, you know, right now they even take my Social Security. you know what I'm saying so if God's will and important come we'd be grateful we'd be grateful for it but I don't sit up here man God's in control of my life

you know I know that I didn't do nothing wrong and at the end of the day man I just got to live with who I am and what happened it would be nice to get important though I think God put people like Michael Watson in your life, though, too. So if it does happen, that's definitely part of the gap.

We're pushing for it, man. Yeah. And the book is, like I said, I'm halfway through, and I put it down to get the chance to talk to you, and I'm going to dive right back in. And I encourage everybody, again, out there, the hustler that changed the game, go buy it, however, listen to it, however you consume books these days. It's an unbelievable story in an unbelievable world, and you're still here telling it. and I thank you for the time

and I'm, you know, I just thank you for sharing your story. I think it's a very important story. Hey, it's an honor, man. And me and Mike, we're really grateful for y'all giving us the opportunity. And, yeah, yeah, push that forward. Is Mike still, is Mike still here?

Mike, jump in for a second, Mike. Sorry, we had you in for a second. We weren't set up to capture both audio. This is my dude. I know this stuff. You're good, bro. You get us all good. My man.

Mike, I'd like to ask you one thing before we hop off What, you know, what inspired you to tell this story and just, you know, the relationship that you and Piggy have. I'd be curious. Absolutely, man. I think what inspired me was he gave me the opportunity. He put my life on the trajectory by being able to play for his program with my big brothers, Earl Watson, Geron Rush. You know, those are guys in Kansas City. Those are heroes and legends.

And so I came up a few years after them. And so when I got to play on that national stage, it really put me there from a Division I level. And so what happened, we lived a block apart from each other and didn't know it for seven years. I had lost contact with him. I went off to play pro for 12 years. And then I came back home to Kansas City. And we ran into each other. He was just telling me what he was doing.

And I was like, man, how can I help? How can I help get the story out there? We were looking for writers to write it and everything like that. And one day we sitting there, he's like, Mike, why don't you just try and write it? And I'm like, bruh, that ain't know what you, you know what I mean? But sitting there with them, man, I have over 90 hours of just, you know, audience and talking to him. hearing his stories, man, hearing his heart and hearing his transparency.

I wanted to get the story out there to tell the truth, you know what I mean? Just like Matt, I heard you mention Reggie. It's a lot of, you know, stuff behind the veil of college basketball, high school basketball. I wanted to make sure his story was told. So that's how I got involved, man. And it just kind of snowballed in a year later, man.

It's where we are. Well, the book is fantastic. Matt and I were even talking off the air. It's like, this is a movie or a documentary at the very least. In addition to a great book. So we should definitely talk off the air. as well because this, again, I think this is a story that could not only, you know, it's part of the history of how we got to where we are today, but also I think it's a good, I think it's

a good point for parents and young athletes to hear this in the moment as they're going through their journey too. So respect to you. Absolutely. I appreciate your jurisdiction, Matt. Well, respect, man. We appreciate you guys. Appreciate your boys. And we'll talk again soon. We'll get you back on here soon and we'll keep up with you. All right, Annie Agar, joining us, courtesy of Twisted tea. Grab a refreshing twisted tea today. Annie, you look in a little holiday spirit? It's like a Christmasy red.

Thanks, guys. Yeah. You got a glow to you. Thank you. It's not from the Packers game. I'll tell you that. Yeah, I'm feeling a little holiday-ish today. Must be Thanksgiving.

So we're going to run a little twisted trivia today. But real quick, guys, is there anything? What are we thankful for? this NFL season. And I'll ask you, Andy, because it's definitely not the Packers and the tie. Maybe you are grateful for the tie. I am grateful for the number nine. I'll just say that.

Minnesota fans know all about that. Like nine, maybe the number of interceptions. Nine is in the number of times that he held the ball way too long. It's just a great year for the number nine. I'll just leave it at that. Is Stafford number nine? He is, isn't he? Yeah.

So I'm grateful. That's a good segue. for Matt Stafford and what we are witnessing with him. And I don't, and I know this narrative, but like there's like the last of the Mohicans of kind of my age group. He's young and me, but Roger's still playing Flacco. I think we need to take a step back and appreciate and be thankful for the career that Matt Stafford has had. I think he's going to go down as someone just said this, but he's one of the purest passers I've ever seen, I think of all time. And I think they're the favorite to win the Super Bowl. And it's my hometown team. I'm thankful for Shane Bowen,

even though he just got fired because you were able to get me five fourth quarter leads where I actually was like, wow, this team's not, and we still lost and held draft position. I know tanking doesn't exist in football, but boy are the Giants doing the good impersonation act of tanking. That might be the question. Like, would you rather have a lead and blow it or just not have the lead at all? So you're taking the positive route. I'd rather have the lead in. I'm taking the positive. I, well, yeah, and James. I mean, live off that touchdown reception for Matt, could you have done that? Could you have done that? I mean, no, dude,

are you kidding me? I didn't break any tackles in my career. All right, last thing before we do twisted chibria, you know, I give you guys one insane stupid thing that Matt rolls his eyes at me every week, so this is that thing I'm giving you. I did not understand why the Bengals would want to bring back Joe Burrow in the sense of like, they're

out, right? And Matt always said, like, you play because you're getting paid and I get it. But then I looked into it, and there are three games back and there actually is a bangles path that's probably not going to happen but it's there the ravens play the bangles as we know coming up so the bangles can get that one ravens go stealers bangles again patriots annie your packers and stealers again stealers go bills ravens need a little help from the dolphins lions who will need the game and the ravens again while the bangles go Ravens, Bills, that's a tough one.

Ravens, dolphins, Cardinals, Browns. Is there a Joe Burrow Bengals path to winning that division? They're three games back. That would be wild. Well, yeah, that would be crazy. I think there's a path.

They were close last year, right? It came down to the Chiefs, that Chiefs game. They're doing what they do. They're going to go. It's going to say, close. Do you think the Chiefs, do you think the Chiefs are going to make a run? Yeah, I think that game that they stole. By the way, a full confession to you guys

And then we're going to do the trivia And I feel like such an asshole for this We know I gamble Down 20 to 9 And then Mahomes through that red zone interception I had a parlay with the Chiefs As the last leg that would have won me a lot of money I took the buyout

No And then they won I took the buyout against the Chiefs You didn't have faith Who does that? I took the buyout against the Chiefs Unbelievable Let's get to some trivia

What do you got for us today Annie? All right, we have a little theme here. Maybe it's the holiday vibe, but we're going to do a little Thanksgiving themes. We have three questions, two pictures, and you'll see how it all ties into Thanksgiving. Let's hope. Starting with, question number one. Who had the most career receiving touchdowns in Thanksgiving games? Calvin Johnson.

Yes. Yeah. I know. You had to assume it was something like. How to be a lion or a cowboy. It was either more like T.O. or something. Yeah. Okay.

Next question. Good one. Good one. The most career rushing yards in Thanksgiving games. Barry Sanders. Oh, no, good guess. Emmett Smith. Yes.

Let's go. The kid's hot. It's my birthday week. Let's go. Barry first, if it weren't for... I also didn't think you'd give us two lions in a row. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Okay. Question number three. Who has the most career passing yards in a Thanksgiving game? In one game? Or Thanksgiving games In the majority of them History This is a tricky question

I think I know it Is it Tom Brady? No Damn it Tom Brady and Thanksgiving Well I just figured They put him somewhere in there A lot on Thanksgiving

Like they do to Mahomes every Oh Hope I didn't just give him an answer Care of Venture a guest, Matt On Thanksgiving games On Thanksgiving games Most career passing yards it's it's on theme of what we were

talking about Stafford yes I just didn't think you go there I didn't think we'd go there I hand it as you won I guaranteed Detroit has like all of these I went outside the box in all these Thanksgiving games all right okay two to one two pictures here

there are Thanksgiving themed the first one who is this player Levi-on Bell yeah that got it I said Avion Bell because I was so, I was trying to spit it out. Okay, this is the tiebreaker here. I think we're two and two.

So last picture, who is this person? Stefan Diggs. Yeah. Wow. Another. Wow. I can't say it any faster. Wait, did a Giants person just blow another lead?

Oh, my. Jerry. Oh, Annie, you're in your video making zone right now, right? I am. Can you tell? I felt like you just put me in one of your videos right here. Shane Bowen, folks. Jerry, what is my Shane Bowen?

You are so bad at this game. What is wrong with you? Look, I definitely shot your wad way too early, buddy. I blew it on Levi-on-Bell, and I definitely, I said Stefan Diggs, as fast as I humanly could have said it.

I don't feel bad about that one at all. And I just went Tom Brady because I just did not think you'd hit us with two out of three lines. I thought this would be the outside-the-box question. So, cheers to you. You could have let me win on my birthday, bro.

I know. Wait, today's your birthday? Not yet, but we don't know what this comes out maybe on my birthday. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Well, happy early birthday. Are you a birthday week person or just like the day?

Kind of just the day. Good. Yeah. I'm not like, I like to celebrate it with family and stuff, but I don't go do it like a whole week. You're not like nine birthday parties and a dinner and a brunch. Nope.

That's too much. But, I mean, not just for me. For me personally, I know a lot of my friends. friends that like to do that. And I will partake in the activities if they include alcohol. But not all of them. Not all of them. No. Well, props to Twisted Tea, everybody. Just give you a, give you another loss for your birthday. Would you expect anything different from me? You wouldn't want me to take it easy on you. No. No. Okay. I want. I want nothing but I want nothing but the heat. Well, thank you, Annie. Thank you, Twisted Tea. Thank you, Matt. Thank you everybody out there who

listened. Happy Thanksgiving. Enjoy the football. It's a great slate. Finally, I feel like it's all lined up. Chiefs Cowboys is going to be insane. Chiefs Cowboys. So good. I can't believe the Cowboys won. It's almost like they needed those two teams to win to make that game awesome. And now it's all laid up. Yeah.

The NFL is happy. The NFL's in a happy place right now with the ratings, I'm sure. Well, everyone enjoy. Be safe out there. Give a little twisted tea if you need it. I'm thankful for both of you guys. Oh, Matthew. We didn't even think to say we're thankful for each other.

Matthew and Brie Ann. Look at what we get to do. We get to do this. Are you kidding me? We get to do this for fun. You kidding me? Yeah. What a great life.

Matt's doing the like, look at us, guy. He's doing the look at us. Look at us. The meme. Yeah. Would you look at us? Just look at us. Just talk at ball.

That was a great ball. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Yep.