Tiger Sisters - Can You Really Make New Friends as An Adult? EP 8

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast. Hi, I'm Gene. And I'm Sherey. And where are the Tiger Sisters? On this episode of the Tiger Sisters, we are talking all about friendships. Everything from our approach to friendships, how that's changed over time, friendship breakup, friendship makeups. And also, what I learned at Stanford GSB on how to repair friendships. It's actually really come in handy.

Starting point is 00:00:27 All right. Let's dive in. Let's do it. But we got a lot of questions about friendships. I'm going to read one of them. So Mini M 1719 said, I'd love to hear about platonic relationships and how you guys navigate friendships.

Starting point is 00:00:53 Such a good topic. Yeah. So much to talk about. There's so much to say. There's so much to say. Romantic relationships. Okay, before we dive into it, if you guys are seeing this now,

Starting point is 00:01:02 reminder to submit your comments and questions on YouTube and IG. We read every comment and we try to get to all the questions too. And obviously you can see it really informed where we take our podcast. Yeah, this is our mailbag segment. So we go through all the comments that you guys have on IG and YouTube.

Starting point is 00:01:18 We actually diligently read them and put them into a document, and then we try to answer them. So if you're watching this right now, go leave a comment on some of the questions you have or topics you want us to discuss. Yeah, or just say hi. Hi. Hey. I can start.

Starting point is 00:01:35 Probably the main thing that I would say I've learned about friendships over the last 35 years of my life. is that I think the phrase is like friendships and relationships for different seasons and different reasons. Have you heard that before? Yeah, I think I've heard it from you actually. It's something you remind me of quite often because, yeah, because sometimes I get like pissed off or like when I'm in like an argument or like a fight with a friend and like P-Oed. I know when I'm peoed and I don't want to fight. You remind me of this. So I'm really glad that you brought it up and I'm glad you can share it with more people.

Starting point is 00:02:12 Well, I honestly, I don't even remember where I learned this from. I would love to, if you guys find it somewhere, I'd love to credit the original source. Or if you've heard it before. Yeah. But the idea behind it is that, you know, a lot of times I think we go into friendships, kind of assuming they're going to be evergreen and lasting forever. But the reality of it is that, like, you're not the same person that you were 10 years ago. And your best friend from 10 years ago is also not the same person that they were.

Starting point is 00:02:42 at that time. Yeah. So like unless you guys happen to grow in almost like exact parallel or in ways that really still keep you together and like are perfectly complimentary, you're probably not friends in the same way that you used to be. And that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the things that I felt most awkward about growing older is that I see a lot of people who are friends with their kindergarten friends or their friends from like third grade elementary school. Even their high school friends. Yeah. And I honestly feel like based off of like where we grew up and our interests how I moved across the country were originally from New York and now we're on the West Coast in California. Long Island.

Starting point is 00:03:22 We're originally from Long Island, home of the locks bagel, the coffee. The coffee and the dumb dogs. Well, yeah, we're from New York. Anyway, we grew up there and so much of my life has changed. I was like, I'm not close anymore with the people that I spent most of my childhood informative years with. But that doesn't mean that you don't have a lot of, like, deep love for them and wish them the best.

Starting point is 00:03:49 And if you were to see them, you would be, like, so happy. I would be. And I do wish the best for them. But I just think when I hear about people talking about, like, some of the friendships that they've had over, like, the last 28 years, 29 years, I don't really exactly have that. And sometimes I feel, like, envious. And I'm just like, oh, is there something weird with me or, you know, that, like, I don't

Starting point is 00:04:10 have the close friends from like elementary school the way that some people do and I really do think it's because we moved across the country and a lot of things our lives have changed even though they're wonderful people and we could strike up a conversation and talk about normal things again but um yeah I think it's funny because I think most people would be more envious of what you have now with your different groups of friends where you guys are not only friends for like fun reasons and like activities and you really like get along. Yeah. But I feel like similar to me, like you have groups of friends where you're just constantly

Starting point is 00:04:47 like learning from each other. Yeah. And like growing together. I would say the people I feel closest to now are those that I have, a friend that I made over the last like 10 years or so. And they're the people that I keep in touch with. I text with them every single day. But yes, there's something really special that I found them when I like moved to the

Starting point is 00:05:10 coast and we, you know, have similar interests and similar, like, professions or at least, like, we're into, like, the same things outside of work as well. But there is kind of a longing and, like, a lack of, like, history with my friends from the last 10 years, because there's 18 years before I met them where they didn't know me. Yeah, but you were just a fetus back then. You weren't even fully formed person. Thank God, because, you know, that the decisions I made at 18 are not the decisions I'd make now. Yeah. And I'm glad I have you in that way as a forever friend because...

Starting point is 00:05:42 We're friends? No, never mind. We're frenemies. No, like, you keep, you hold so much of that history for me. Oh, yeah. Even though I have a terrible memory. Even though you have a terrible memory, you at least remember what I was like at that time.

Starting point is 00:05:56 And you are like kind of like a living diary in some ways. Yeah. You know, it's actually funny. I feel like my high school friends remember more specific like things about like you and I. Really? I remember all the time. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:06:08 Some of them have like amazing memories. But I would say on a similar topic, one thing I've been very pleasantly surprised by over the last like five, six, seven, eight years is that I have made a lot of amazing friends in the last like seven years of my life. Oh my gosh. We should definitely dive into this. How do you make friends as adults? Yeah. Because it's hard. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:06:34 It's really hard. I mean, before we get into that, I just want to say. that like it's it's not something that I don't know if I was like very like intentional about it but I will say that the friends that I've made in the last like seven years like some of them I literally never even like knew before and now I'm like I can't believe that they weren't in my life before and I'm just like they bring me so much joy and happiness and love but then also I really respect them yeah like of my group of girlfriends Well, when you said you never knew them, you mean like you didn't know them from business school.

Starting point is 00:07:11 Right, exactly. So like a lot of my really close friends now are actually from HBS, but like we didn't know each other at all at HBS. Or like maybe we had, you know, knew each other in passing, but we'd never ever had like a meaningful conversation. Well, just because HBS is like a really big class. That's true. There's like a thousand people there. Like you might know of someone or not even know of them, but like you might be in the same class as them. You like hang in passing or something, but you never really have. time to get to know each other.

Starting point is 00:07:40 But yeah, that's just something where I feel really blessed and lucky that like within my group of like close girlfriends, not only is everyone super like fun and like I love their personalities, but I feel like I truly respect them. Yeah. In like one way or another. And I feel like that's maybe like, maybe that's something I would recommend to people to be like in making new friends, if there isn't. one thing that you could like point to and be like, wow, I really respect this person in this

Starting point is 00:08:13 one specific regard. And like I feel like I'm like learning from them in this way and I like look up to them in this way. Then I don't know, maybe it's not like a super accretive friendship. And maybe that's okay too. Yeah. It depends on what you want out of a friendship too. Yeah. But I mean, they say that you are the product of the five people closest to you. Yes. Yes. And so, like, if you're of a growth mindset and you want to continue growing, the people that you surround yourself with will either lift you up or bring you back down, depending on their personalities as well. So it's actually really important who you decide to surround yourself with in both a personal, professional, like, familial context. Because so much about it, so much of it is about energy and the energy that people bring. And that's why I think in a lot of ways your platonic friendships are more important than your romantic.

Starting point is 00:09:07 relationships because of those five people, the romantic relationship is just one, right? Like, you also have all the four others that are, you know, impressing upon you day in and day out. Yeah. And sometimes when you lose, like, a romantic relationship, it doesn't, you don't get to, like, keep it as a friendship. Oh, yeah. That's actually the worst part about romantic relationships, I think.

Starting point is 00:09:31 The biggest risk is that, like, oh, my God. That's true. It's actually the worst. you're like, I have this best friend who, you know, we've known each other in such a deep way and we're so connected. And then like when you break up, for the most part, at least for like six months to a year, like it's really hard to be friends afterwards. I wouldn't know. I'm not friends with my exes. Me neither. Yeah. But like supposedly people can be friends with their exes. I hope you're happy. I hope you're happy and good luck with that. But like it's just, it's kind of a loss there of a friendship as well.

Starting point is 00:10:05 Yeah. Which is kind of hard to grapple with. Yeah. But I guess back to the concept of making friends in your late 20s and in your 30s. I'm going through it right now since having moved to like L.A. Like I am in like community establishment friend making mindset. Yeah. But I think you're doing a really good job of it.

Starting point is 00:10:28 Yeah. A lot of it is saying yes to what people invite me to. even if I'm like, oh, I'm tired, I'm not feeling it. Yeah. Like you want to say yes. One of my friends, Eric, taught me this, especially when you move to a new place, when people invite you out, especially if it's like the first or second time they're reaching out to you, you want to say yes.

Starting point is 00:10:48 Otherwise, they won't want to invite you out again or they won't think to invite you out again, which is like the sad reality of it. You know, people are like putting a bit out there trying to bring you along. This is the cold reality. No, it's true. They're trying to bring you along. and you want to be a yes person, especially if you're trying to form a community. If you're like, well, established somewhere, you can do whatever the heck you want.

Starting point is 00:11:11 Yeah. But, like, you want to, like, meet people's bids, hold on to them, hang out with them, and then they'll want to bring you to, you know, the next few events. Yeah. If you're trying to establish a community. That's good language, the bids. Oh, that's also very... Well, it's also very, like, psychological research-based.

Starting point is 00:11:29 Yeah. It's, like, very much this concept of, like, if someone is making, like, a bid for you. your attention. They're like putting in a bid. And it's like up to you as to how you want to respond to that. If you say that, if you use that language with anyone who's gone to Stanford's business school, they will know exactly what you're talking about. So GSP coded. It's so Stanford GSP. I think the other method in addition to being like a yes person and being responsive to people's bids for you is for you to like create events yourself based on things that you're interested in. Right. So when I first moved to L.A., one of my areas of interest is that I like to watch

Starting point is 00:12:13 The Bachelorette or I like to watch The Bachelorette. We talked about this before. And so this was like seven or eight years ago. I like texted like a couple of my girlfriends or a few of my girlfriends. I was like, hey, like come to my house and we're going to do like a Bachelorette watching party. and we'll do like a bash for a watching night. And then after one season, one of my girlfriend was like, Gene, I cannot watch this anymore. Why? Because it's just not her like speed. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:40 Like she's like a much more, she's just not into that sort of stuff. Into like reality TV. She's not into reality TV. Oh, so she's not fun. It's like, she is fun, but it's just she can't. She doesn't like the trifling aspects of it. Sometimes it can be stressful for people. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:55 Anyways. But she was like, but I see. want to hang out. She's like, can we still hang out on like a recurring basis, but do something else? Oh, is this where your book club came out of? Yes, exactly. So that's where my book club was born. We're like, okay, I guess we could like make our, you know, club a little more highbrow and we can make it a book reading club instead of a reality TV show watching club. And so then that's been now going on for like seven plus years. And I think I've mentioned it before, but it's definitely been like a cornerstone of my community. Yeah. Here in, in LA. And it's great because other people

Starting point is 00:13:34 also invite people to the book club and it's just like a very... I mean, there's something really powerful with recurring events. Yes, that's the other point. It's like you can have the one off and you're like, oh, okay, we're going to hang out this one time. But it's like up to one person or even like just two people to like agree like, oh, we like each other enough. We like each other's company that we want to continue seeing each other on like a basis that is recurring. It's actually like it's a very psychological thing because you have something to look forward to. You're like, oh, I know who I'm hanging out with.

Starting point is 00:14:05 I know what we're going to do. And there's like consistency in that community and in my life. I think it really helps to have something so you feel more settled in that way. I actually, I have a practical tip. I have like a practical like a hack or something. Okay. Because you know sometimes when you're trying to get like a group together. Oh yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:22 Like plans. plans making it out of the group chat exactly and having like doing that on a consistent basis like sometimes you don't want to be like especially with a big group of people you don't want to just like throw an idea out there and then it's like crickets for like five hours how embarrassing so sometimes like what i do is all like you know back channel or like message with someone else who i know is yeah get buy in exactly is like already kind of like invested is one of like the a more yes person. I'll be like, okay, like, what's a good date for you?

Starting point is 00:14:56 Because I know you're definitely going to come. And then you, like, kind of organize. And you're like, okay, we're going to do this. You propose it in the broader group chat. And then the other person responds right away. Yeah, or like, like, likes it, thumbs up. Yes. And like, can't wait, yes, like, blah, blah, blah.

Starting point is 00:15:10 Yeah. So it's like kind of like a coordinated, like, planning thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, ironically, though, I feel like I learned that from work. Yeah. One of my mentors taught me that from work on how to, like, manage really large group meetings,

Starting point is 00:15:25 like important, like exact level meetings, you need to be actually like back channeling, like way ahead of time. All the time. Oh my gosh. So it's kind of funny that I like, it went backwards. I pulled it from like work and then applied it to.

Starting point is 00:15:39 Oh, well, this is a whole other conversation. You can have another time about back channeling, best practices at work. Actually, we should say that for a later podcast episode of how we're building our startup and like, best practices. But like back channeling, basically is like there you have up here the appearances of what it looks like on the surface to

Starting point is 00:15:58 people to the broader public public audience whether that's in the group chat with like 10 people or like you know an executive board that you're like presenting to you have like the public appearance and then under here you have like the inner workings of how those things come to be so that you can set up the public appearance yeah and that can be as simple as being like hey girl I'm going to propose something can you heart it immediately in the GC so that you know, there's momentum. Do you guys say GC? Group chat?

Starting point is 00:16:25 Yeah. Sometimes. Oh, I've never heard anyone say GC before. Is that a thing? It might be. But yeah, it's like a little bit of like Kabuki Theater. I've never heard that before. Oh.

Starting point is 00:16:38 What is that? Like Japanese Kabuki Theater. There's like a lot going on like backstage. Oh, I just know the Kabugi Theater in Japan Town in San Francisco. Yeah. Is that what you're talking about? Well, before Japan Town, it was a lot. in Japan.

Starting point is 00:16:53 Oh. It's like a type of like theater. Or also it's just a phrase like, open the kimono. Can we, we are retiring the phrase opening the kimono. That is no longer a phrase we all allowed to use. I wasn't referencing that phrase. I feel like another, it's something you've been doing too because you have your recurring, you had your recurring poker nights with your girlfriends.

Starting point is 00:17:14 Yes. Oh yeah. We had poker nights on Mondays when I was a student. It would be hosted at my house. with my friends. And it was something really fun to look forward to because we had like a core four of women who came to it every single week

Starting point is 00:17:29 because three of us lived in the same house. And then we would, you know, add other ladies, other women who would come, you know, depending on the week if they had availability. But it was a fun way for us to expand the group out and meet other people and just like have something that we're coming to do together every single Monday. It was wonderful.

Starting point is 00:17:49 So really big on the recurring events, especially for building friendships over time with people that you enjoy hanging out with because life gets busy. You know, everyone has work, working out and like other commitments, family, whatever. But like if you can have like a recurring calendar hold, this is why calendar invites are very important. If you can have something on the calendar, it's like a blocked off time where you're like, we're going to hang out. I like that.

Starting point is 00:18:15 Next topic is we're going to talk about platonic friendships with people of the opposite sex. So this was also a mailbag-specific question. They said, please include platonic friendships with the opposite genders. Thanks. Yeah, so what do you think about this topic? It's so important to have platonic friendships with people of the opposite sex because while I think it's so important for me that I've experienced such deep friendships with women, especially we can connect in a very special way, I think having a lot of close guy friends, like ones that I've met through work, is really important because they offer a different perspective. Oftentimes there's like a set of hobbies that I like to do with my girlfriends and then a set of like conversation topics that we talk about. But being friends with guys, they offer like nuances and there might be into different things.

Starting point is 00:19:11 Like I have a group of guy friends who are very into personal finance. I do not like personal finance. I know enough to be dangerous, but I also have a lot of questions. And so, like, when I'm hanging out with a group of, like, guys and girls, these guy friends will, like, gravitate towards, like, tips and tricks and investing things they've heard recently. And it really up-levels me and, like, my knowledge to be a part of that conversation, even though it's not something that I'm naturally into. And quite honestly, like, my girlfriends and I, who are part of that friendship group, we get a lot

Starting point is 00:19:44 out of that, but, like, it's not a topic that we are into personally. And that's not necessarily gendered, but in my friend group it kind of is in that way. Well, yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up because for me personally, a lot of the more unique investing opportunities that I've been a part of have been brought to me through my groups of guy friends. And I do think, unfortunately, that is a gendered thing in some ways because there's not as much conversation amongst groups of women that are like sharing different investment deals.

Starting point is 00:20:14 That is something I'm working to change actually actively with. my fund Sumberg ventures. Mm-hmm. And that's something that me and, like, groups of girlfriends have talked about before, about, like, let's be more intentional about sharing deal flow with each other. Yeah. Because, like, we can see the guys group chats, and they're, like, popping off.

Starting point is 00:20:33 They're sharing deals all the time. I feel like also where in your life, I've seen your, like, platonic friendships with guys come in is your group trips. Like, you do, like, a lot of, you just came back. Yeah. from a group trip with your girl and guy friends. Yeah, that group trip was amazing. I just came back from a long weekend,

Starting point is 00:20:55 hanging out with my friends, my best friends who live in San Francisco, who had come down to the L.A. area to hang out. I was busy. I couldn't make it. There was like nine of us there, like half guys, half girls. And I feel like for you, like group trips, oh, for me as well, has been a really important part of developing,

Starting point is 00:21:16 friendships and like deepening friendships right? Oh totally like when you go on a trip with someone and it could be domestic or international but you're just like traveling with people you see a different side of them and conversations and relationships are just so much deeper and like can develop in like a richer way. Yeah and I would also say like you're experiencing, you're typically experiencing new things for the first time together. It's like I mean it's kind of the same concept of like when you go on dates with people. Is it? Yeah. Because. They're like when you go on dates with people, you should have new experiences together. That's why, like, not to bring it back to The Bachelor and The Bachelor it again,

Starting point is 00:21:54 but that's why on that show, they always make them do, like, crazy shit together where they, like, jump out of a, they skydive together or they do bungee jumping together because they want them to have, like, a unique new experience that has, like, a spike in their, you know, serotonin and, like, et cetera. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Starting point is 00:22:12 I always knew about like forging new experiences or new shared experiences in friendships. But I didn't think about it in the romantic way either, but I guess that totally makes sense. Yeah. It's yeah, it's really fun to experience new things culturally or just like, you know, like physically. Yeah. Like do like a new activity together that you've never done. Because I feel like when you're doing something new, it's like the novelty effect where like a part of your brain is like the prefrontal cortex or like the hip, campus like different parts are like lighting up and like forming new connections because it's something

Starting point is 00:22:46 new but that's why travel and also traveling to a new place or even just experiencing something new with a group is just like holds a very special place in my heart and something that I try to do very intentionally every single year yeah and that I would encourage everyone to explore okay for the next section we are going to bring back book club book club article club aka just what we're reading. Hopefully it doesn't evolve into just memes in the future. But, okay, book club. So it just so happens

Starting point is 00:23:18 that the last few weeks there have been a lot of articles about friendships. Yeah. Across like all different publications. There was an article in the Washington Post just a week ago that was called Would you be mine? Could you be mine? Won't you be my friend?

Starting point is 00:23:35 No. And the main takeaway and the premise of it is that the way to make friends is to to just act as if that person is already your friend. Yeah. And then I was thinking about it, I was like, oh, there are people who have definitely done that to me, and it works. It's just assumed familiarity.

Starting point is 00:23:55 Yeah. That's a really interesting concept. I hadn't quite thought about that before. Like, art is a very tactical way of that implementing that. It's just, like, texting a lot or just like someone just having like multiple points of contact with you. That's what they said. They were like, don't feel cringe.

Starting point is 00:24:13 They didn't say that we're cringe, but they're just like, don't feel embarrassed and don't feel like you are reaching out too much. Just do it. Oh, that's interesting. I will implement that now as I'm forming my community. And then another article in The Cut by New York Mag set is called, exactly why our friendship breakup so brutal. What psychology can tell us about this particularly haunting sort of breakup and why I still

Starting point is 00:24:40 dream about friends, I dot, dot, dot, reach the paywall. You got the idea. Those dang paywalls. Yeah, but this is, this is a rich topic. Yeah. Friendship breakups. Oh, my God. For me, I would say I have had like a couple friendship breakups that were more,

Starting point is 00:25:05 and I have only had a couple friendship breakups, honestly, but they were more painful than. pretty much, I think almost all of the romantic breakups I've ever had. Yeah. Because usually for friendships, you invest for years and you don't anticipate that there could ever be a breakup. Right. Like once you have a friend, you don't think about losing them.

Starting point is 00:25:29 Whereas like for a breakup, you're like, this may or may not work out. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think about friendship breakups? Oh my gosh. I don't know. this topic, like, makes me feel very unsettled. And I'm glad it's something that we're diving into,

Starting point is 00:25:44 but it's not easy to talk about because I don't, I honestly don't think I really processed my friendship breakups. Like, I think with, like, that's what the article said. Yeah. The part that I was able to see is that most people are actually extremely avoidant. Yeah. When it comes to friendship breakups, as opposed to when you have a romantic breakup, there's the idea of like, oh, we should get closure.

Starting point is 00:26:08 we should talk about it and you like officially break up but it I think like the vast majority of friendship breakups like it's not a clean break like there's no real like conversation yeah maybe that's why I feel so like claustrophobic right now just thinking about it because there were like two friendship breakups that I've had that I don't feel like have had closure whereas like for the most part I definitely seek closure for romantic stuff I'm like I need to get this off my chest and then you know we'll figure it out from there but yeah I don't know for the two friendship breakups that come to mind. They were both with like women and friends, two women that I was friends with in college at different times. It was also at a time when I didn't have the vocabulary to

Starting point is 00:26:48 express myself to then seek closure with, um, these people. So I definitely, now I feel like I've developed a way to not avoid to run into the friendship and be like if something's wrong. And also if I feel like it's a friendship worth investing in and like bringing up, you know, some of the issues that we have and we can work through in a way that we would do with a romantic relationship. I mean, I think I would do those things differently now with the insight, the foresight, and also the courage. Like, it's just really scary to be vulnerable in a friendship sometimes because you're vulnerable about, like, so much other stuff.

Starting point is 00:27:29 But when a problem comes up, this is also maybe as I'm just like very conflict avoidant. It's hard to bring up when you, to tell someone that you're hurt. by them. Yeah. Yeah. And then also, I think for me, also my most painful friendship breakup was in college. I think also I agree with you. I was much younger then and I wasn't as equipped as I am today to really like handle those

Starting point is 00:27:58 feelings. And I would say it was the same for the other person involved. I did in that instance seek closure and like push to have a conversation. to be like, hey, like, what's going on, like, et cetera. But I would say the same way where I wasn't as equipped back then to be able to, like, manage what she was about to say. Like, I don't think she was equipped. They weren't equipped to deliver it.

Starting point is 00:28:27 Have a conversation about it either. Like, I don't think. And also, the other thing I will say, it's not always about you. What do you mean? It's not. Like a lot of times You mean in a fight? No, not even in a fight

Starting point is 00:28:40 Just like for a friendship breakup Like you know how like in romantic religions They're like it's not you, it's me Yeah It's this and like I know that's like a trope And it's like a trite thing to say But it's actually true for a lot of things For friendship breakups like

Starting point is 00:28:55 It can oftentimes be like what's going on in their life Totally And like is it a pattern Like if you were to reflect Like is it a pattern on their end? Yeah Or, you know, like you don't, you don't have to take it so personally. And it's so, so, so hard in the moment to like remember that.

Starting point is 00:29:13 But like me reflecting back on those instances, that's what I would say to myself, right? And that's what I would say to anyone today who is like going through a friendship, breakup or is like in any sort of like phase of that to be like, in the best way possible, it's probably not about you. Yeah. As I've gotten older, I've become very selective about where and to whom my energy goes. Yeah. And, like, I was less discerning when I was in college, obviously.

Starting point is 00:29:50 You're just meeting so many people. You're hanging out with so many people. She's just a hoe for friends. She's a friend ho. But, like, really, I think now that I've gotten older, like, I only have so much energy and, like, true, genuine energy that I can give to my friends. And I love giving that attention and care for people. But that doesn't go to everyone. No way.

Starting point is 00:30:11 Like I'm very selective, especially when I also feel like that reciprocal like love and care from another person as well. Because I think we've all been in relationships or friendships where you're like, oh, I feel like I'm giving like a hundred percent and shouldn't this be more of like a balanced friendship? Yes, exactly. So that brings me to this other sort of like topic that I wanted to share, which is that one of my biggest. learnings about friendships and how to approach friendships over the last 10 years is that I used to approach friendships and be like the way I am as a friend is I'm deeply loyal. I am like really giving and I also I don't know like I hold myself to pretty high like regard and yeah you say what you're going to you say what you're going to do and then you're going to do it you're like a very dependable

Starting point is 00:30:59 person yes exactly and that's just like my personality and so like for most of my life the way I approached friendships is that I had an expectation of my friends to show up in the exact same way that I did. Right. But that's kind of not, it's not really that practical for every single person. It's setting yourself up for disappointment, probably. Yes. So like one thing I've learned over time is that not only can you have friends for different seasons, but it's the friends for different reasons, right?

Starting point is 00:31:29 Like you can have a friend who is like so much fun and, like amazing to like go to certain events with but like you're not going to invite them over to like you know dinner with your parents or something like that right like you can have friends for different reasons and then the other thing i learned i don't know it just kind of goes back to like not taking it personally like i said like i'm a very conscientious person so if i make a plan with you i like put it in my calendar and i'm like okay the plan is happening and then i like plan everything else around that that's just not how everyone else is right like people have different approaches to how they manage their social calendar.

Starting point is 00:32:07 Yeah. So, like, I used to be very offended if someone, like, canceled at the last minute, or I used to be sad if someone, like, canceled at the last minute or they, like, flaked. But one thing my friend taught me is that she said, like, for one of her friends who she knows is, like, consistently canceling or, like, changing their plans, but she still is friends with her and, like, wants to hang out with her. She's like, yeah, I just make plans with her ahead of time. And then I double book it.

Starting point is 00:32:40 And I'm like, what? Like, what do you mean? Like, how do you, like, live like that? She's like, yeah, like, most of the time, like, they reschedule or they cancel. But, like, I'm still friends with them. And she's like, I'm not offended. She's like, I don't care. I just, like, work around what my expectations of this person are.

Starting point is 00:32:57 And I just, see, that's what I mean. Like, I'm always, like, learning from my friends. Yeah. Because it's, like, such a, like, pooh. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually so smart, but it's just not how I would naturally approach a friendship. I would say I'm not really there yet, which is why I set myself up for disappointment in friendships and still continue to. Whereas, like, I think I still hold people to the standard that I would hold myself.

Starting point is 00:33:23 But people come with different, I mean, you've really helped me understand this. People come with different baggage and different points of view. So, like, something, like, this is a very simple example. in friend groups, whenever you go out to eat, how are you, you know, determining the bill? Are you splitting it, like, straight down the middle? If someone, you know, had a soup and other people had, I don't know, like a huge entree and 15 apps, I'm exaggerating, of course, but like, you know, or do you take turns as a group, like, who pays this time, pays next time?

Starting point is 00:33:54 Like, if you come in with one expectation and also one, like, set of cultural expectations or, like, you know, different points of view, like, some people might be offended or might be upset if like that's not what they were expecting to do but like that's a very i don't know simple example of like where there can be some tension and if it's like unresolved people like will get mad or like be like oh i don't want to hang out with that person anymore because i'm assuming you know blah blah blah about them and how they behave yeah but i want to it might not really be about you yes i think it's also like you meet people where they are like i have had people that benmo charged me like $4.55 for like a split Uber.

Starting point is 00:34:35 I've been like, oh, okay, sure. But like, I wouldn't do that. But then also I'm like, okay, this person is telling me who they are, right? Like, they are very stringent about like splitting things. So in the future, that's how I'll approach my relationship with them as well. Whereas, like, naturally my default is to kind of be more like, oh like I'll cover this time you cover next time like it doesn't really matter and I feel more comfortable I mean if you don't temper your own behavior yeah then resentment will build up in the

Starting point is 00:35:10 friendship and it is like unresolved resentment that is the root of like conflict yes like for this exact example if I didn't change my own behavior and like I just continued to like just treat this friend every single time and be like oh well they'll get me back next time they'll get me next And they won't. And they won't because that's their behavior. Standard of, you know. Conduct. Conduct.

Starting point is 00:35:33 Then I'm setting myself up for disappointment. Yeah. So, yeah. This was like a very like simple example. And obviously things can be can be much deeper than this. But I think that was a good one to like just illustrate where there can be a misunderstanding between people. Because money is very like black and white. It's a very.

Starting point is 00:35:56 dollars and cents. I mean, it'll come up in every single friendship. Next, we are going to talk about how to avoid a friendship breakup. So, okay, Sheree, I know that at the GSB, they teach you very specific methods and modes of communication that you and your friends have used to repair friendships. So tell us more about that. Yeah, so the class, most people at Stanford's business school take this class called Interpersonal Dynamics, also known as Touchy Fully. You go in, you have a lecture, and you learn these concepts of relationships and how to view relationships. And if there's conflict in relationships, how do you repair them?

Starting point is 00:36:45 Yes. And before you go further, this is like a world famous class course. Yeah. Like, I've just heard also like every single person who ever goes to the GSV. Like I, I remember I had a boyfriend who was going to the GSB and he was like obsessed with this class. And like, he was like, I have to send you the notes. Who? Shane. Oh.

Starting point is 00:37:11 We'll be fed out. Yeah. He was like, it's going to change your life. It changed my life. Like everyone was crying in this class. Like, he made it. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:22 And there are some people who opt out of the class, but I think if you opt out of the class, people are like, wait, why did you opt up? Did you even go to the chase? Well, it's such a, like, foundational part of the experience. And then people are always, like, ranking this class first and wanting to get into it. Are very upset if they don't get into it. Yeah. People do cry in this class.

Starting point is 00:37:41 It's very unstructured. For part of the class, you're sitting in a circle with people in your training group, it's called. And there's, like, 12 people, including facilitators. And you're just, it's very unstructured. People will be silent until someone starts the conversation about something. What do you talk about? Someone will say something.

Starting point is 00:38:00 Perhaps they'll share something about their background. And then another person will then make a comment about how that sharing, that disclosure landed on them. Oh. And then people comment on other people's comments. And that's how the conversation gets really rich. And if people have like an issue with what you said, like what you said didn't land on me. well. It made me feel XYZ when you said this. And so much

Starting point is 00:38:27 about it is about observation and what we call not crossing the net. If there's like a net of like what I observe and what you're thinking and your intention, I will never know what your intention is. I can assume it incorrectly. But there's like this we call it crossing the net. I only can see the observed behavior and how it's made me feel and I should never cross the net and assume your intention. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:52 I feel like we could get way deeper into this in like a separate episode. Like you're getting too like, there's a lot. There's a lot here. And it's also because I'm also very excited about it. But basically we also learned in this class the really important takeaway is repair and friendships. Like yes, you can have this conflict. But I have a set of vocabulary terms that I can use so that when my friends and I

Starting point is 00:39:16 who have gone through the same experience and the same class, when we get into a conflict, we have a way to make up. Okay. So, like, practically, what aspects of it can other people use to, like, apply to trying to repair a friendship that may be on its way to breaking up? It goes back to not crossing the net. Don't make assumptions and speak from your observed behavior

Starting point is 00:39:42 and your own experiences. Okay. So it's like when you... You have to have a conversation about it, basically. There needs to be a conversation. Okay, so, okay, like, I want us to do step by step, right? Because this is a very scary, difficult thing. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:56 So step one, you have to internally commit to being like, we are going to have a conversation about it. Well, yes. And, you know, bringing it up to the other party, it's like, hey, can we talk? That's like step one. And if they say no, then you're like, okay, well, this is important to me. And if you value this friendship, like, we will have a conversation. conversation. And if they don't value the friendship, then...

Starting point is 00:40:17 Scooby. Bye. Yeah. Okay. That's good. So both parties have to be open to having a dialogue. Okay. And then when you do have the conversation, the way that you approach it and what you say should be... This is the behavior that I observed. Yeah. This is in the public domain. Like, do you agree with me that this was the behavior? Yes. I witnessed it. you witnessed it. When I observed this behavior, it made me feel X, Y, Z. Yeah. Okay. And then what do you hope that the other person does? Or what is their role then? Honestly, this is where bids come in, because when one person is approaching another person and being like, can we have a conversation,

Starting point is 00:41:02 that's putting a bid out there. Yes. And for the other party to receive that bid, they have to join the conversation and hear the other person out. So much of it is maybe you don't agree with how that conversation went, but it's just like that, you can't argue with it. That is another person's lived experience because they witnessed something and they felt something. Okay. So if you are the person who was approached for the conversation, your job is to listen to the first person and hear them out. Hear them out and also respond. Like, yes, that was my intent. No, that wasn't my intent, but I can understand because of the context you provide. that this behavior made you feel this way.

Starting point is 00:41:45 Right. And then you yourself may also have felt aggrieved. And so then maybe you kind of go back and take the same approach. You were like, well, for me, like, this is what I experienced. Yes. And this is like what I observed happened. And that's how it made me feel. Yes, totally.

Starting point is 00:42:04 Okay. So then how do you go from that to like a resolution? I think, I mean, there's a lot of stuff that happens in the middle. but ultimately it's just like moving forward like what is the plan for both of us in our friendship now that like do we understand each other like there has to be a common understanding like so there has to be you have to be like yes we understand each other yes i can see i don't agree i might not agree with it but i can see that when i did this it made you feel like this and i'm sorry that um i made you feel that way so both people have to say they're sorry i think they have to feel

Starting point is 00:42:39 I don't know if they have to say the words exactly, but there has to be some sort of acknowledgement. Acknowledgement. Of the hurt. Yeah, exactly. Acknowledgement in order to move forward. Okay. So there's the acknowledgement and then a commitment to move forward together.

Starting point is 00:42:57 The commitment to move forward together. And like repair doesn't happen in like one 45 minute scenario. It obviously depends on the context and what exactly happened if there was a loss of trust or a loss of like respect like those are very deep things that in order to repair it might take many conversations and then many changed behaviors in order to move forward yes that's also part of it too is that maybe in part of your conversation you're actually not only saying this is what I observed and this is how it made me feel but I am requesting that you change this like when when you interact with me. Yeah. Or like in order for me to feel like you're invested in this friendship or invested in

Starting point is 00:43:45 this relationship, it would mean a lot to me if you can do ABC because of X, Y, Z. A lot of it is feeling words. Like a lot of it is stressful. Like I have a feeling chart like right above my desk because so much of it is identifying how you're feeling and putting a label on it. So then you can then talk about it. If there's not a word to describe your feeling or there's not a way to say it out loud to verbalize it, it's really hard to have that conversation with someone. If both people are committed to having that conversation in a genuine and open way, then you could literally even both go into the conversation with the feelings chart and use it to facilitate the conversation because you're like, we're doing our best, right? Like we want a positive outcome from here. We should share the chart. Yeah, for sure.

Starting point is 00:44:34 It's like Hoffman's feeling list And there's probably like I don't know Over 50 words on there Yeah Yeah I recently went through this process With two of my close friends We had and you know both separately at separate times

Starting point is 00:44:53 There was conflict And because I'm so conflict avoidant I was just like Okay deep breath Put on my you know Big girl Boots and dive into the conversation and then set aside time like, hey, can we talk? We talked about it.

Starting point is 00:45:10 And go through the exercise of hearing each other out and deeply discussing the points of friction in our friendship. And yeah, there were tears. There were for sure tears. But I don't think that's a bad thing. I think there was just so much care and so much hurt that we both had to, we all had to work through. And then I think we're stronger because of it. And the easy, the short-term easy thing to do would be like, to suck it up or to swallow it or not bring it up.

Starting point is 00:45:37 But then I think that would just breed resentment and a feeling of just like distance, growing distance, which is not what I want for the relationship at all. So, yeah, I had those conversations. The relationships were repaired. And a lot of it is not harboring that resentment afterwards too. Yeah, I think what's interesting is that there is kind of this like scientific process that you can apply. to repairing a relationship. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:08 That's like very much a process that has like different tools and references that you can use. I think almost the more important thing is that both people need to be aware of and bought into that process. And like because for your conversations, they were other classmates of yours who had gone through that class and sort of had the same sort of training almost. like they were able to receive what you said in a way that was like they were aware of the process. They were able to receive what I said, but I was also able to say it in a way they could receive. Like, you know, attacking language. It's like when you did this, like, you like blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't use attacking language.

Starting point is 00:46:56 Do not use attacking language, no. And do not assume another person's intent. Like a very simple example is that like you see a co-worker walking down the street, you wave to them, they don't wave back to you. You could spiral and be like, Jason hates me. Jason hates me. He doesn't like me. Punch a street sign. He didn't say hi to me.

Starting point is 00:47:16 Like he's mad at me. No. And then later on, you can talk to. I would fire them. You can, okay, well, no. Later on, you would talk to Jason and be like, Jason like, hey, like I saw that. You ignored me on the street. He's like, oh.

Starting point is 00:47:27 Like, Jason, you blind? No, Jason, he's like, he would, he would. say like, oh, I was completely lost in my thought. I was coming out of a meeting. I had no idea you were there. Otherwise, you know what I mean? Like, do not assume another person's intent. You have no idea what's going on with them. And honestly, that has really helped me let go. Kind of like you were saying before, it's not about me. It's hardly ever about me. She got fired up on that topic. Did I? She got fired up. Fired up and ready to go. But yeah, I love that. I feel like that is a very, very...

Starting point is 00:48:02 really helpful framework for people that, and I think it's actually really nice that you gave an example too, because I don't like when people like teach you a framework and then they don't give an example. You're like, okay, so like, how do I implement this? You know? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. But thank you for sharing that. That's very, um, it's very generous of you. Oh, thanks. And also, notice how we have two microphones. Oh, yeah, we got to reset that up. Guys, we got a whole media tech upgrade.

Starting point is 00:48:42 Yeah, and I hope it's working. These are really fancy. These are sure microphones. The, uh, wait, some 7Bs. Yeah. No sponsorship, though. No sponsorship, although if you're watching this and you want to sponsor this podcast, hit us up. Oh, yeah, we are looking for podcast sponsors for some really fantastic.

Starting point is 00:49:02 brand safe content. Exactly. Okay, well I think that that wraps us up today. Thank you guys so much for submitting this question. Oh yes. I could talk about this for like hours more. There's like so many other subtopics for this. So if you guys are interested, we can do like a part two, we can do part three, just submit your questions. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of the Tiger sisters yes like subscribe follow share with all your friends and we'll see you guys soon bye love you bye

Tiger Sisters - Can You *Really* Make New Friends as An Adult? EP 8

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Tiger Sisters - Can You Really Make New Friends as An Adult? EP 8