Tiger Sisters - Dating 101 (avoid these mistakes)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Should you be using LinkedIn as a dating platform? This is Tiger Sisters episode on Dating Part 2. We released our Valentine's Day episode last week, and there were so many follow-up questions, and we want to come back to you with answers. So we're going to be talking about how you can interrogate the person that you're dating to make sure you guys are compatible. And also, we'll go into Jean's egg-freezing journey. And should that be something that you do, I haven't done it,

Starting point is 00:00:25 and it's honestly one of my biggest regrets, so we're going to talk through that. This episode and our last dating episode is especially important for ambitious women, people who are really driven in their careers and the partners or potential partners of ambitious women. Because this is the conversations that we're having with each other and also with our friends. And we just feel like this is a part of life. Like we talk about our career and professional stuff. But who you decide to marry? Should you freeze your eggs? Going on dates.

Starting point is 00:01:05 That's a really big part of our lives as well. And we'll get started right after this break. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sisters matcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast. Thank you for your support. Welcome back.

Starting point is 00:01:29 And we're going to get started on our first topic, which is interrogating. I know that sounds intense, but interrogating the person that you're dating to see if you're compatible. And this is a continuation of our conversation from the previous dating episode. Yes. So the reason I wanted to follow up on this topic is because I felt like last time Sheree's answer had a very actionable piece of advice where she said, hey, this is my formula. And this is how I've applied the formula to actually make it useful in my dating life. Whereas I felt like the advice that I gave, which I said, interrogate your values,

Starting point is 00:02:03 interrogate the values of the person that you're dating and see if they, um, coincide, see if they align well. I felt like I didn't really give an actionable way to do that. So now I'm following on. This is her follow up because she's like, wait a second. How could I be more helpful to people? Yeah. And so the example or the method that I'm going to give is what I learned in my couples therapy

Starting point is 00:02:26 with my ex-fiance. And there's a lot to unpack here. So if you guys are missing some context, watch the previous dating episode where Gene talks about her ex-fiance. say. And I also give the formula for my romantic dating happiness. So we'll put the episode here if you guys want to check it out. But we're continuing. We're going forward. Yeah, we're continuing. So the method that we learned or kind of this exercise that we did together that was very enlightening, I'll say, is very simple. So basically take five or six elements that are generally

Starting point is 00:03:02 the five or six elements that are most important in a person's life over the course of time. So say career, hell, your nuclear family that you had growing up, your partner. I read these down. Future children. Those are, oh, and also God. The couple's counselor we were seeing was sort of religious, so she kind of had a religious bent to everything, but she included God. So which which I think is good to include in there.

Starting point is 00:03:34 So go through the exercise of basically each person stack rank all those five or six things and think about what are what are the most important things to me out of that list. Put it all down in a list. And then you basically compare it with the other person. This is juicy. This is fun. Yeah. Wait a second.

Starting point is 00:03:53 I want to do this with the romantic like my romantic interests. Your prospects? My prospects. my, oh my God, what were you going to say? Marasta. Well, it's a good one. I, honestly, I wish we had done this earlier. Sure. And I was shocked. Were there big differences? Yeah. And like what you guys found most important. Yeah. Really? Huge differences. Wow. Um, even having been together for eight years. Wow. Is that freaking unbelievable? Yeah, it is. On one hand, I personally feel like I it's slightly embarrassing because sometimes I think to myself, how could I have not been,

Starting point is 00:04:36 how could we have not been on the same page about that after being together for eight years for two generally otherwise well socially adapted and successful people? We were somehow not on the same page about that for the same time and had never gotten to the bottom of that. But I mean, it's hard because like those things don't really come up in conversation that like, specifically or like intentionally. And when you stack rank, it's an exercise forcing you to make do with limited like. Yes. And I think also it resources or the other person or the two of you actually are best friends and

Starting point is 00:05:13 you feel like you're so similar in so many ways. It's very easy to sort of project onto the other person and assume that like, hey, we're so similar in all these other, all these ways and how we live our lives and our daily, you know, um, priority. and everything just seems really perfect. And so you kind of assume that you're aligned on those priorities. Sure. So that's an exercise I encourage everyone to do.

Starting point is 00:05:44 And the earlier on you can do it, I think the more clarity you'll have going into that relationship. Yeah. And I will say one other thing. I was thinking about it. And I think that when you do this exercise, you don't necessarily have to have the exact. exact same stack rank. You know, it doesn't have to be that you all prioritize things in the exact

Starting point is 00:06:05 same order. It's more so that you have to be comfortable with and happy with their stack ranking and vice versa. Yeah. Or they have to, and you have to sort of put them side by side and be like, this works. This aligns. Because one person could have their stack ranking of, you know, children at the very top and the other person could have their career at the very top. And even though that's not the same, if you are aligned that, hey, these are our priorities. And actually, that works out really well because then I'm going to be the primary caretaker of the children. And then you're going to be the breadwinner of the family, you know, not to put too old-fashioned of a I guess slant on it. It could be reversed. It could be a stay-at-home dad.

Starting point is 00:06:52 Yeah. I wasn't, I didn't gender it. Yeah. But yeah. So it doesn't have to be exactly the same. but you have to be aligned with how their stack rank is and vice versa. If nothing else, it forces a conversation on this topic so that you can see how similar or dissimilar they are. Yeah, yeah. I probably have some more gems from couples counseling. Very intense couples counseling. Was it very intense?

Starting point is 00:07:18 We actually, you and I have never talked about it. Oh my gosh. It was beyond. We were, well, first of all, you know I'm type A person. Yeah. And also I'm like the A plus student. So for Hermione vibes. Yeah, I'm so Hermione.

Starting point is 00:07:35 So me, my approach was if we're going to do this couples counseling, we're going to do it right. So I had us do, or it was my idea, but we both did it. We did double sessions every week. Like twice a week? No, we did two hours in a row every Sunday. Two hours, so four hours in total? No. Each session is one hour.

Starting point is 00:07:56 Oh, I see, I see. So two hours total. Yeah. But it's very intense. That's like double floor at Berries. Yes. It really is. You did double couple sessions.

Starting point is 00:08:07 Yeah. So every Sunday I would be pretty much emotionally destroyed. I would be drained. How can you really do anything else after that? I can't. You can't. You're like, there's so much flooding of emotion. Oh my gosh.

Starting point is 00:08:20 Yeah. We would, it would, I couldn't do anything. I couldn't see anyone after. I couldn't be productive. because you put so much energy into that session session and that exchange. And you're really trying to problem solve at that time, you know. So, and I guess I feel like at that point, because of many reasons, like, stakes felt high. So there's like a lot of pressure as well as opposed to like, I don't know, an earlier relationship,

Starting point is 00:08:51 earlier on relationship. Yeah, yeah. That was actually the second time that we had gone to couples therapy. So we were already familiar with the construct and the system. So we didn't need to ramp up in that way, even so. Yeah. I feel like I need couples counseling with my friends. And just like with my like platonic friendship.

Starting point is 00:09:14 It's just like really helpful because I think people's natural inclination, I'll speak for myself, my natural inclination is not to be not to talk about these things. It's to like run away from them because they're really hard to talk about. out really hard to confront yourself and the other person. And, you know, it's not just you as another person who's also facing internal battles of like how to talk about these things as well. And so I just feel like counseling or therapy or whatever you want to call it is just so good. I want it for like every aspect of my life. Yeah. I mean, now that I've gone through it, I think that it's very healthy to do. And also, I mean, I thought it was healthy before, but I wish

Starting point is 00:09:52 that we had done it more consistently earlier because it was. would have been helpful to know that we were not aligned on these values earlier. Earlier on. Sure. And one of my girlfriends, she and her boyfriend are very serious. They're planning to get engaged. They're planning to get married. And they've been doing couples counseling, basically premarital counseling, even before they get engaged, which I think is so smart.

Starting point is 00:10:18 There's kind of like a stigma around it right now. Like, I feel like it when people are talking about it. But like the more I talk to people, I realize people are doing it. and not really publicizing it because like people are embarrassed. Really? Yeah. But like I see like on TikTok now more and more like people talking about like before we get engaged we're doing premarital counseling.

Starting point is 00:10:38 Yeah. I think for me I would for sure do that. Yeah. My next time around. Hopefully that exercise is useful. I would love to hear back from you guys if you try it. It doesn't have to be a whole big conversation. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:54 It's to be a big deal. And it's also the sort of thing where you can talk about it for five. minutes like and then separate and work on it and then bring it back together and then have the conversation at another time true it doesn't have to all be in one go it can often times be healthy to like take a breather yeah and separate and also give yourself time to think um and if you're not up to it if you're not ready for it just do the exercise for yourself and then think about what are my own values and how does my stack ranking work and then maybe imagine what theirs is and then work your way up to to doing that exercise together imagine but make it rooted in reality no limerence here no

Starting point is 00:11:39 limerence okay before we move on to our next topic a fun little just piece of goss between us is that so the last episode i was so shocked chris shooketh i was actually shooketh that shrieketh that Shiree on her second date with someone received a book that was basically a couple's counseling book. Yes. But the fact that this person you were dating gave you a book on the second date, I was very taken aback. And then I don't know if this is karma or whatever. Divine intervention.

Starting point is 00:12:12 I went on a first date. And then this person gave me a book. What's with men giving books out now? They're like professors, philosophers. I mean, I haven't dated for eight years. So I'm just like, oh, is this the new norm? People just are giving books and sharing. I think it's probably the men that we've gone on dates with

Starting point is 00:12:33 are probably like a bit more cerebral and thoughtful. Don't you think? That like they're, one, they're reading. Did you date people who didn't know how to read before? Not that it didn't know how to read, but people, some people enjoy reading more than others. As someone who doesn't enjoy reading as much as you. You don't enjoy reading?

Starting point is 00:12:51 As much as you. Oh, yeah. but I'm a freak. She's a freak reader. She's a, yes. But anyways, like, I think, I don't know, we're just dating people who are into reading, perhaps and, like, want to share, like, knowledge and, yeah. Did you like it?

Starting point is 00:13:07 What was your reaction? I was sort of taken aback, honestly, because I was in a good way or a bad way. I mean, a good way. I mean, I love receiving gifts. That's one of my love languages. It's my number one love language. overtime. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:25 And I was like, oh, I was just kind of, once again, I was shooketh. But it was very different from yours. It wasn't a counseling book. It wasn't a counseling book. It wasn't a self-help book. It was a book of prose poetry by Khalil Gibran. I feel like that's kind of more romantic. Yeah, I guess so.

Starting point is 00:13:50 The guy I went on a date with was like, you need health. help. Here's a self-help book. Yeah. And then I don't know if this is too much detail. Maybe we'll cut it out upon review. But I forgot the book. I left the book. I didn't actually take it with me after the date. And then the next day, he actually texted me some pages in the book of one of the poems that he wanted me to start with reading. And was it a romantic poem or like what's the poetry angle it was about it's about the soul hello like I said these guys are deep they're readers they're philosophers all right are we meeting people who are more deep than we are am I definitely not shallow you guys you guys know how my brain works here I get to be

Starting point is 00:14:40 shallow now compared to someone that would kind of fun I don't need a shallow one yeah why am I into this so yeah so yeah Unfortunately, the prose poetry book has worked on me, it seems. Wow. She's such a hypocrite because when I get a book, she frigging roasts me and roast the guy to the end of the earth. That when she gets a book, she like is all lover girl now. Yeah. Well.

Starting point is 00:15:11 Well. Wow. Wow. That was a little goss to sush for you guys. Okay. Little goss session. Back to the programming. Back to the programming.

Starting point is 00:15:20 Should you be using LinkedIn as a dating platform as a former LinkedIn employee? My official answer is no. You should not be because we have teams and organizations. We have pillars that actually fight against this because LinkedIn is a professional, social media app. Really? Oh, my God. Internally? Yeah, guys have had this conversation.

Starting point is 00:15:41 The trust and safety team? For sure. People getting unsolicited like DMs, harassment, specifically women. on LinkedIn. It's actually like just so inappropriate. Like let's be serious for a second. Like it's just like so unnerving. You're like on a social media platform.

Starting point is 00:16:01 It's all your professional stuff. You can say that like a lot more of yourself is put out there because you can't really have a private profile on LinkedIn for the most part for your social for your career. So like getting a message that's like unsolicited advancements is just so ick. Um, should I be offended that no one is ever hit on me on LinkedIn? I didn't know that was a thing. It is, but don't be offended. You don't want it to happen to you.

Starting point is 00:16:24 It's just horrible. So, like, if you're someone watching this and be like, should I hit on them on LinkedIn, I would say my official stance is like, no, do not send them an in-mail of, like, inviting people on a date. Like, I don't think you should do that. However, asterisk, if you want to use LinkedIn as an information source for you to run background checks on people to make sure that they're who they say they are and that you have, like, connections with them.

Starting point is 00:16:50 Like I would say LinkedIn is really good for first degree, second degree, third degree, you know, network connections. Like you can see how well you might know someone. Yeah. I think it's good for background checks, but yeah. Everyone does that, right? I don't know. Do you guys do that? Not everyone does that, I don't think.

Starting point is 00:17:09 Some people like to not background check people. But anyways, I think it's good to be safe that way. But I would say limit the in-mail sliding into in-mail. That's not a thing. I can provide a sort of devil's advocate to that. I don't know if it's really my opinion, but I recently spoke to a friend of mine who I hadn't seen in a while in many years, five years. And she basically gave me an update on her life over the last five years. And she gave me an update on her last five years, which she had told me she has focused a lot on basically,

Starting point is 00:17:48 her goal of wanting to get married and have children because she said prior to that she had focused so much of her time and energy on her career and advancing that. So she went full, full on. She did everything. So she used matchmakers that she paid, which are very expensive, by the way. She said one, the one that she used was $6,000 to set her up for three dates. I was like, damn, damn. But that's commitment. She joined different clubs. She joined different clubs. She joined different organizations. She was on all the apps. And then the one thing she told me that she did where I was like, wow, that's commitment.

Starting point is 00:18:27 Is that she and another friend of hers who live in different cities decided to become each other's matchmakers. So what they would each do is they would look on LinkedIn for people that they thought would be good romantic matches for their friend slash client. And then they would email them. They would email them. And email is fine. I think if you can get their email. How don't they get their email? You can find it on LinkedIn.

Starting point is 00:18:53 You can find people's emails very easily. Sure. Okay. I would just say take it off platform. Unless you want to be flagged. If it's in an unwelcome advance, they might report you. And then your profile will be taken down. There are consequences.

Starting point is 00:19:05 Oh. Well, okay. I don't know about that. But she said they would each email people and say, hey, I'm a matchmaker. I have someone who I think would be a great fit for you. One, are you single? Two, would you be interested? Three, are you open to a phone call? Yeah. So they, they made an entire funnel. They used LinkedIn literally as a dating platform, which obviously it's not designed for. And I think they ultimately did not actually find success there. Neither of these two people are now with people that they sourced on LinkedIn. But it's an interesting exercise. Like, that's kind of like you are. picking from a pool knowing their credentials. But she said the biggest problem is you didn't know if the person was single or not.

Starting point is 00:19:53 So you kind of waste a lot of time and energy sending, I guess, cold inbound emails to people who may not be single. I mean, that's the sales funnel, baby. Like, you don't know if someone's buying what you're selling. If you're going to be in sales, you need to be willing to send a thousand cold emails to get one response. She said one guy emailed her back and CC'd his wife and was like, Thanks so much for the inquiry.

Starting point is 00:20:18 I'll have to check with my wife on that, LOL. So that's slightly mortifying. But I guess if they were just doing it for each other. If you're doing it on behalf of herself, that is so embarrassing. That's why you need a girlfriend. And that's why you need to team up with someone so you can do it for each other. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:35 Okay. But the other thing that she recommended about LinkedIn that is more, I think, tenable for people to potentially do is I was telling her, as I've mentioned to you guys, that I, for me personally, all of the serious relationships that I've had in my life have always been people that I met through school or through work and got to know first and was friends with first before we ever had any sort of romantic relationship. And so I was sort of lamenting to her. I was like, I'm not in school anymore.

Starting point is 00:21:09 And for my company, it's just me and Cherie. So I'm not- Sorry, I'm not bringing any hot dudes to the office ever. So there's no pool of people. It's just different from before. So I was kind of, this was during my sad also, my seasonal affective disorder. She gets sad during the winter time. Yeah, during my winter blues funk. And so I was just sad and I was saying to her, you know, that kind of opportunity is not available to me anymore. And that was what I was really comfortable with.

Starting point is 00:21:40 That's what I was used to. And that's what worked well for me. And then she kind of turned it on its head and she said, no, it's the opposite for you. She said, actually, now everyone is your co-worker. she said this person is so positive like kind of toxicly so but she said basically she said even if you don't work with these people we work with these people in day to day there are lots of people that you could potentially work with for whether it's for you know sisters worldwide for tiger sisters for sisters macha bringing people onto the podcast as guests so she her idea was she was saying you should be

Starting point is 00:22:21 reaching out to people and kind of like under the premise of having like a business reason but really you want to date them or something hello do not use tiger sister's podcast as a shell for a reason so i was kind of like oh that's innovative that's yeah that's very intentional yeah but then again this is this is someone who she has had the most sort of like intentional approach to dating, getting married, and having a child that I've ever heard of, that I've ever seen. She really took it on as the most important project. It's like a full-time job. Yeah, full-time job. She made it a full-on work stream. She was sending out, she had a quota for herself. And now she's happily dating someone. Yes. So the end of that story

Starting point is 00:23:16 is that she eventually actually met someone on Hinge. Oh, God. The matchmakers didn't work. Yeah. Like, it just happened. Yeah. She met them on a hinge. They got engaged and all within seven months. It's giving Chloe and Lamarge.

Starting point is 00:23:37 Who got engaged after like, what, three weeks or something? I don't know. Like Kardashian. I thought that was Kim and Chris Humphreys. I mean, I think that was also fast as well. Yeah. No, no, they got divorced. Fast within 72 hours.

Starting point is 00:23:50 Right? No, I thought it was. was like seven weeks or something or was it 72 hours our our lore is not our Kardashian lore is someone fact check us not fact check okay one more follow up to the story maybe we'll cut this because i don't know if it's we'll see how we feel after but i realized that her advice is pretty out there and that's being very intentional i kind of accidentally did that what do you mean because i asked one of my friends to introduce me to this other person who for for business reasons basically and we got coffee together and I went into it purely wanting to get have a business conversation and then no seriously because I thought this

Starting point is 00:24:37 person was married so and then it turns out they're not and then they asked me on the data afterwards true so I accidentally did what she had suggested. it. But I did it before she had suggested it just for just to be clear. I think that's good because this is someone that is like a friend of a friend. Right. And like it's already lack of a better term, like background checks that like you know like, oh, there's like social accountability there. That's why I think you found so much success in like dating people from school or from work is because it's like background checked or like social checked in some way. Yeah. And. And. And I think like, I guess it makes me think one of my biggest regrets and don't judge me for saying

Starting point is 00:25:26 this is that like I really wish I had made something work from business school because like a lot of people find success in being with someone from business school. A lot of people in my year have. And it's just nice because like it's already automatically background checked in so many ways. Like to get into a top business school program like you have to be super career driven. you have to have excelled in something, gone to a good school or like have really good career experience before that. And then like when you're in school, like you can see how people behave in certain situations in the classroom, outside of the classroom. It's like a really fertile

Starting point is 00:26:04 ground for meeting a life partner. And so it didn't end up working out for me. I don't know. It's just like a really interesting way to have a background check. And the same thing for like working at LinkedIn. Like, yes, everyone is going to be a tech employee, but like still in some ways, like, they're like smart, they're accomplished. They have to work well with people if they're going to succeed at the company, all that stuff. Well, to your point, I thought I had found someone through a business school. Yeah. I mean, I ended up dating this person from business school for being with this person for eight years and it didn't pan out. Yeah. So that's one side it. And then on the other hand, I will say I know people that got together and later married

Starting point is 00:26:57 business school people five, six, seven years after business school. Yeah. So I can't even imagine that though because GSP is so small, it's so much smaller. And like I already know all of my classmates like too well. And I feel like if there were to be a romantic prospect, it would have happened. However, actually, she's bringing out the however. However, what I've heard is that I should not be looking in my own grade, but above and below one year for people who maybe I have not been in contact with it. I don't know as well, but are in the same network. So I think that's what I should do. Yeah, one of my best friends is dating another HBS guy who was in an older year than us. I don't know how she met him. But it's just like the alumni affiliation.

Starting point is 00:27:45 is just enough. So yeah, I can't even like think about anyone else in my grade itself. Like that would just be weird for me, but someone below or above. Yeah. I have been having a flirtation with someone in the year below. Oh. Oh. I was unaware. And our last juicy, juicy topic is about egg freezing. And I'm just going to kick us off here. I feel like one of my biggest regrets from when I used to work in corporate is I didn't freeze my eggs. So a lot of just to set some context, I think a lot of young women are thinking now of like how to prioritize their career and how to push having children later on. And so they're freezing their eggs. They're doing this procedure. Many times egg freezing is covered by your insurance plan provided through your work. And so

Starting point is 00:28:38 especially at big tech companies, the benefits. I mean, everyone look into this if you have, if you have this benefit, but a lot of the time, it would cost, you know, $40,000 to do the entire procedure and, you know, cover all those expenses. Your work can provide the coverage there and pay for it. And of course, you know, the question is like they're incentivized to do this because they want, you know, the employees. I forgot about that. The young employees to stay in the work for as long as possible and like not have children. That's like the more like nefarious, malicious. Like whatever. We don't have to get there. Like everyone has their. own intents of why they want to do it.

Starting point is 00:29:16 But was it covered at LinkedIn? It was covered at LinkedIn. It's covered at Microsoft, at least when I worked there. Like, I don't know how it was fully covered or do you know the details? I'm pretty sure it was fully covered because I talked to one of my girlfriends who worked at Microsoft who I think I was 26 and she was 24, which is on the younger end to freeze your anger. And then she's because she had like a plan for life.

Starting point is 00:29:39 She's at Wharton now. She was a PM at Microsoft. She's now at Wharton. But she's just like before I go to Wharton, like I'm going to freeze my eggs. I'm going to do this whole thing. I'm like, what the hell? You're 24, you know? So I was just like, oh, I'd already left LinkedIn.

Starting point is 00:29:51 Like there's no way I can do it. But I think it's really for me, I was just really impressed by her foresight. I don't know if there was like a medical thing about like freezing your eggs at a younger age. I just didn't want to put my body through it either. It's pretty grueling. So I like had to put it off. But Gene froze her eggs. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:09 Through work. Before we get into that, I do want. want to stop on the point that if you are potentially looking for a new job or considering a new company, it is worth asking and understanding what the benefits are for egg freezing or for fertility or for any other thing in that kind of area. I remember a girlfriend of mine when she was considering an offer from Snapchat to move over to Snapchat, she actually reached out to me and she asked me, she said, oh, what are the egg freezing benefits?

Starting point is 00:30:40 what are the fertility benefits? And I had no idea because I hadn't really thought about it myself. So I actually had to look it up and figure out what they were and then get back to her on it because she was actually coming from meta and they had also quite good at freezing fertility benefits. So she was like, okay, I want to make sure I'm not, you know, giving all this up. Because it actually is quite expensive. Yeah. And also if you yourself don't have coverage, but you have a partner, for example, you might be covered through their plan to freeze your to freeze your eggs yeah yeah and then to your broader point I don't think you need to be regretful that you haven't done it I had thought about at one point encouraging you to do it but then I did it because the advice that I had gotten from fertility doctors in the past or from even OBGYNs because I had brought it up even years and asked the doctors about it even years before I actually did. didn't and their advice was well if you are still in your 20s or 30s and you're in a serious relationship or you see yourself eventually having children in your mid 30s then you don't need to

Starting point is 00:31:59 go out of your way to do it so I was actually early on I was discouraged to to do it so just because the timing wasn't right Because it's a lot of work on your body. Yeah. Yeah, it's expensive and it's a lot of work on your body. And maybe now I think, you know, maybe the prevailing sentiment around it has changed to becoming much more preventative and people encouraging you to do it earlier. But then also there's a lot more fertility startups around. So I think there's also a lot more marketing around it.

Starting point is 00:32:37 Yeah. That was generally the guidance and the prevailing thinking, I think maybe five years ago. And I do think in the last five years, it has shifted. I do think so too. There's a lot more companies focused on egg freezing, also IVF and just fertility in general for both men and women. So yeah. I mean, it's pretty grueling on the body. Like you have to inject yourself.

Starting point is 00:33:01 You have to like put these hormones in your body with a needle. Ronnie Chiang has a hilarious special that came out on Netflix very recently and where he talks about like having to help his wife inject herself. Right. For I think I don't know if it's egg freezing or just egg retrieval making embryos, whatever. Yeah. But hilarious special. You guys should watch it. But it's like so spot on where he's just like you get the package, you know, that you're with all the hormones.

Starting point is 00:33:31 You have to do it yourself at home. Like none of us are trained experts. we're not nurses we're not doctors yeah and you he Ronnie Chang talks about like mixing the serum yourself is that what you have to do yeah he's like he's like I'm no scientist and then like he's like I'm pouring he's like and I have to inject this weird concoction that I made making sure it's like at the right meniscus millimeter it's actually very stressful because it they're all prescription and they actually are very expensive so you don't want to mess up right so the first time that we did it um we actually messed up the first dose

Starting point is 00:34:05 And so we had to throw it away. How? You just, like, measured it wrong? Yeah. I don't know. My partner did it. My ex-partner did the mixing. Ladies.

Starting point is 00:34:16 If he doesn't know how to read the meniscus on the lab test tube or the beaker, he's got to go. Okay, okay. I thought it was maybe understandable. Anyway, I do think, okay, I think I'll start at the beginning about. even thinking about it considering doing it and how you decide so I had a partner at the time we were not yet engaged but we were imminently about to get engaged so so one factor people think about a lot is should we freeze eggs or should we freeze embryos protect yourself ladies freeze your eggs I mean we see now how this turned out so luckily I froze eggs but the reason why I did it

Starting point is 00:35:03 is because I had talked to a few of my girlfriend. Yes. And I had heard enough kind of horror stories. And I'll share one here. So this is a friend of a friend who ended up freezing her eggs because she got cancer. And so she knew that after the cancer treatment, she and her fiance wouldn't be able to have children naturally. So they actually went ahead and they froze embryos together. And I think they ended up getting married.

Starting point is 00:35:33 But after all that, they ended up getting divorced. And she wanted to use her embryos that she froze to have children. Because that was the only way she could. She didn't have any more eggs or embryos left that she could use. And he said no. So that's so heart-wreaking. I know. Isn't that really sad?

Starting point is 00:35:55 That makes me want to cry. I know. Sorry to make you cry. But so then what happened? And so she just can't use them. She can't use them. I know. That's really sad.

Starting point is 00:36:06 So that's... Sue him. Sue him. Sue him. For damages. He had it coming. He had it coming. She had it.

Starting point is 00:36:18 You should have been there. If you'd have seen it, I bet you would have done the same. Boom, boom. Um, anyway, we love showtunes. love show tunes if you guys have seen Chicago yeah um but yeah so that's a horror story that is a that is a horror yes story someone needs to write a documentary biopic about that I've heard sort of other similar versions of that too but that's just the one that sticks out in my mind the most why would you freeze embryos and like unless the guy is like I think women should always protect themselves

Starting point is 00:36:57 yeah and unless the guy has like a problem like I guess a cancer or or something, like something like that. I don't know. Can someone tell us why you would make embryos? I would just. It's because actually, historically, embryos are much more successful than just freezing eggs. So that's why it's a point of consideration because over most of the time where egg freezing was existing, the rate of success from a frozen egg to a live birth versus frozen embryo

Starting point is 00:37:27 to a live birth. I see. There was a vast difference. Okay. In this case, split the difference. Some eggs, some embryos. So that was one big input into why I decided to freeze eggs, the horror stories about embryos. And then the second one is that my doctor, Dr. Mars, who's out of the game now, he's since retired. But apparently he did the first IVF baby in history, California or history or something crazy like that. Whoa. It's on the website. Yeah, I have to look it up. Yeah. But the other reason is because he told me the freezing technology has advanced so much now that the difference and success between frozen embryos versus frozen eggs is only 4% now.

Starting point is 00:38:16 Versus, I think, before it used to be a much wider gap. Now, is that 4% absolute? Is it 4% relative? I have no idea. But that was basically all I needed to hear. Yes. I felt so much better after he. told me that. Yeah. So then that's how I move forward with freezing eggs. So for me, based on what I, well,

Starting point is 00:38:38 based on my lived experience, that was definitely the right choice. Yes. Oh my God. I can't even imagine the alternative. It would just be really sad too. Yeah. I can't even like imagine if you had the embryos and they would never get to. That's you're literally your friend. Oh yeah. Your friend and my friend. the friend of your friend who had the embryos. Yeah. Like, who never even, oh my gosh, that would be so sad, especially after going through cancer treatments and all that stuff. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:09 And then all of the onus of egg freezing. It's a lot. That's right. Work. It's a lot emotionally because sometimes it's not successful. There's just so many parts of it. Because the other way to look at it is in some ways, it's almost like having a mini pregnancy. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:29 For those of you who. who are not familiar who are watching this, like you have, like we said, you have to inject yourself. And you have hormone patches. You have to have your blood taken towards the end every day. You. And like a lot of the changes in hormones in your body also, like, affect your mood. It also affects your weight. I've heard a lot of girlfriends who've gotten the procedure done.

Starting point is 00:39:53 They're like, there's a lot of weight fluctuation, then weight gain. I just feel horrible about my body. But this is like a necessary step that we have to do. On the other hand, like, obviously men don't have to do that with the egg freezing procedure. So, yeah, a lot of the pressure is on women emotionally and physically. Yeah. So to that point, my way of thinking about it or the way that I experienced it and maybe this can be helpful for some other people is that if you're doing that together with a partner, it really is a sort of gauntlet that you're going through together. And it's a really good way to understand how each of you're doing that.

Starting point is 00:40:29 of you act and react and go through a challenging time together and what roles you sort of naturally take. So for me, from my perspective, if you're in a relationship where you purport to be 50-50 and it's a true partnership, then for me, because the woman who's taking on the actual physical burden of doing the egg freezing for the benefit of the couple going forward so you can have children, right? She's doing all the physical work. She's taking on all of the pain. She's taking on all of the emotional burdens that are caused by the hormones.

Starting point is 00:41:10 In that case, I think the other partner should be doing everything that they possibly can to take all the other things off of the woman's hands. I think that partner should be making the appointments. I think that partner should be figuring out, picking up all of the prescriptions. I think the partner should be doing all the paperwork. They should be, you know, mixing the potions if you trust them. So not make a mistake. Making the potions.

Starting point is 00:41:40 And I just think that, to me, would be indicative of someone who really wants to be in it 50-50 with you. I like how you said, like seeing the natural roles that people take, too. Yeah. Because I think if someone. is unwilling or like unwilling to do that. Okay, fine. Show me that you're unwilling to do that. And like when we actually have a kid together, if we have a kid together, is this what life is going to look like? It's like a fantastic mini test. Instead of getting a dog together, like freeze your eggs together.

Starting point is 00:42:11 I don't know. I don't know. It's just like those are multiple tests that you guys can run in your interrogations. It's part of information collecting so that you can figure out how you feel about it. Yeah. And I'm not saying that there's one right way or another, right? Maybe some people are in a relationship where they both mutually agree that doing something like egg freezing falls under the category of child rearing and in a heterosexual relationship that is squarely in the responsibility of the woman. Maybe that's not how I would live my life, but that's a valid way to go about. But as long as you're in agreement, right? And you're each sort of playing the roles and doing the responsibilities that you each expect the other person to do. Yeah. I think it's it's just all about expectations.

Starting point is 00:43:03 It's about what you say you'll do and then actually doing it. How you portray yourself, how you sort of advertise or market yourself to be. If you're saying that you're a very progressive 50-50 partner male in a heterosexual relationship, then, you're, you're a And show me. Yeah. Thanks for joining us for this special episode in season three of Tiger Sisters. We really put ourselves out there for this episode, especially me. Totally.

Starting point is 00:43:36 And we love that. Yeah. And the reason I do it is because I'm hoping it can be helpful to you guys because I feel like I've gained so much wisdom and information and advice from my girlfriends that I really want to share it with everyone because. Information is power. And that's how you can, that's how you feel empowered to go through life with confidence, not just in your career, but also in your, all the other decisions you're making in your life day to day.

Starting point is 00:44:04 So I would love to hear from you guys. We would love to hear from you guys on what resonated with you. If you have any questions, what touched you. And also please share this episode with someone who you think you would be helpful for because we really want to get as much information out there as possible. Yes. Thank you guys for tuning in. Please remember to like, comment, and subscribe if you're not already subscribed so you can get notified every single time we put an episode out there. This is season three of the Tiger Sisters podcast. We're releasing episodes where we interview entrepreneurs, investors and founders. And of course, in between those,

Starting point is 00:44:44 we have these fun little bonus episodes so we can talk more. We can get some more tea and talk more about life outside of the professional realm. Thanks guys. Bye. Bye. Hey, everyone. Quick break to share something special, Sisters Macha. We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar Macha, straight from the family farm Shari worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to SistersMacha.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make Macha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus.

Tiger Sisters - Dating 101 (avoid these mistakes)

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