Tiger Sisters - Everything I Learned At Stanford's Business School in 90 Minutes

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Check out our matcha brand, Sisters Matcha at www.sistersmatcha.com Sign up for our newsletter here: https://cherieluo.substack.com/subscribeIn this Tiger Sisters Remix episode, we're bringing together some of the most valuable lessons Cherie learned during her time at Stanford Graduate School of Business. From decision-making and career strategy, to influence, communication, and designing a remarkable life, these are the mental models that have continued to shape how we think, work, and navigate big life choices.Tune in for lessons on:✅ How Design Thinking helps you solve the right problem✅ Why "test and learn" beats waiting for the perfect plan✅ Jeff Bezos' framework for faster decision-making✅ The hidden reasons people choose certain products and services✅ Decision Trees and Expected Value for life's biggest choices✅ Using OKRs to build a roadmap for your goals✅ The Stanford feedback framework that improves communication✅ Power Mapping and how influence really works✅ Why decisions are more reversible than you thinkWhether you're plotting a career move, building a business, managing relationships, or simply trying to make better life decisions, this episode will give you the frameworks and confidence to do so. Consider this your Stanford Business School crash course… without the admissions process, case studies, or the $250,000 tuition bill.Timestamps:00:43: Introduction and how to watch these episodes03:02: Design Thinking Explained05:12: Snapchat's Beauty Shopping Experiment07:24: Test & Learn: The Stanford Startup Mindset08:37: How Tiger Sisters Pivoted from TV Show to Podcast10:59: Dropbox, Zappos, ClassPass & DoorDash13:25: Reversible and Irreversible Decisions13:40: The “Bezos” Framework18:28: Part 1 Debrief & Biggest Takeaways19:50: The Harvard-to-Stanford Transfer Story23:18: Part 2: Overview24:08: Jobs To Be Done Explained26:28: Decision Trees & Expected Value Thinking31:08: Using OKRs to Design Your Life40:55: Cherie’s reflections on Part 2 41:17: Reflecting on Engineering a Remarkable Life51:27: Part 3: Frameworks on Soft Skills53:10: The SBI Model Explained01:02:34: Power Mapping Explained01:06:54: Sheryl Sandberg's Masterclass in Influence01:09:15: The Carol Bartz Cautionary Tale01:10:28: Power Mapping Exercise01:13:46: How to Communicate with Clarity01:17:14: Part 3 Debrief & Power Mapping Takeaways01:18:31: How to Network Without Feeling Transactional01:21:48: Building an Abundance Mindset01:25:19: Dream Guests & Closing Thoughts🐯👯‍♀️ We’re the Tiger Sisters — your Wall Street & Silicon Valley big sisters Decoding Money • Power • Love✨ New episodes every Monday | Shorts all week ✨💌 Want to partner with us? Sponsorships: [e-mail] trust us?▫️ Cherie Brooke Luo — 100M+ views demystifying tech, finance & MBAs▫️ Jean Luo — ex-Goldman Sachs, ex-Snapchat exec, 50+ AI patents, startup investor▫️ Together: 4 Ivy League degrees • built billion-dollar products • two startups — decoded for youWhat you’ll get (and keep):▫️ 🚀 Ivy League cheat sheets — no $250K tuition▫️ Personal finance playbooks (salary, investing, negotiation)▫️ Networking scripts behind $100M+ deals & job offers▫️ Real conversations with CEOs, operators & investors▫️ Mindset resets — clarity without the pricey coach▫️ Systems for career, money, and long-term growth💛 LET’S CONNECT~ CHERIE ~Instagram — /cherie.brookeTikTok — /cherie.brookeSubstack — cherieluo.substack.comLinkedIn — /cherie-luo~ JEAN ~Instagram — /jeanluo_LinkedIn — /jeanluo👉 Hit Subscribe & tap the 🔔, then leave a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review on Spotify & Apple Podcasts. It takes 10 seconds and makes a massive difference in helping new people discover Tiger Sisters.🛍️ Items:🍵 Sisters Matcha — www.sistersmatcha.com🌀 Everything else — https://amzn.to/3z0dx5b

We treat all decisions like they are the same, like they are irreversible, like making your first hire, like buying a house. Like a lot of decisions are reversible, but when you treat them all the same as irreversible, it just slows you down in life. I had a conversation with one of my classmates that was related to decision trees, but it is a new framework that I want to bring to you. This is a conversation you have with your friends? Do you not? Nerd. Guys, I know it's controversial and it's going to be ick feeling, but we got to do it. power mapping. I feel like a lot of people play things very close to the chest. Like,

this is my connection. This is my person. Like I can't introduce you to them, blah, blah, blah, like that's not how I feel at all. Like I know just putting the pieces together, more amazing things will blossom. This is the Tiger Sisters way. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley Big Sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. What up, what up, what up, what up, Tiger fam. We're back yet again with another mashup of everything we learned at Stanford's Business School. We're bringing you the best of the best. Gene and I recorded these episodes around a year ago, and this is the perfect time to revisit it with a debrief, our takeaways, and our updated thoughts. So there's actually

three parts to this episode that we put all together into this one episode that you're watching right now, which creates this sort of Stanford Business School Masterclass. We have case studies, we have frameworks, we have many exercises, and we recommend that you, you watch this entire episode all the way through because throughout, Jean and I will be giving our debrief and some of our updated thinking since we have films of these episodes. And just a little bit behind the scenes, the making of these episodes includes not only the traditional research that we always do for every episode, but it really includes Cherie's like personal handwritten notes from her classroom time at Stanford Business School.

So I think you guys are going to love it. Yeah. And I can't believe I paid $250,000. $1,000 for this degree, and y'all get the best takeaways for free. All you have to do is subscribe to our newsletter. Do it now. So in part one, we talk about design thinking and applying frameworks to not only your professional life, but also your personal life.

And my favorite, please look out for this. We talk about type 1 and type 2 decision making, and this is something that I still think about week to week. So please look out. Okay, so let's dive into part one of everything I've learned at Stanford Business School. Today we're sharing three of the six most important tools taught at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. And for each of these, we're going to do two things, just like we would for a real case study at Harbor Business School or the Stanford GSB. The first thing is that we're

going to talk through a real life example of a company so that we can bring the framework to life for you. Second thing is that we're going to go through a mini exercise so that we can actually practice what we learn through the framework as we go through the podcast. Okay, so the first framework is design thinking. Shuri, tell us about design thinking. So design thinking was invented at Stanford's D-school, the design school, and it's completely reshaped how many companies, especially tech companies, approach problem solving. So the whole concept of design thinking really took off with this company called IDEO,

which is a famous design company. And they're famous for a lot of things. I think one of the things that people know them for is that they designed the original Apple Mouse. which is kind of hilarious. Iconic. Iconic. And the whole big idea behind design thinking is that instead of designing around what you think the problem is, you need to design around what the user actually needs.

And I love design thinking because it literally works for any type of problem, whether you're at Google or you're at the Gates Foundation, for example. We used it all the time at work. And the whole concept is that it's not at all about being a designer. It's actually about really empathizing with what the user wants. and what the user needs so that you deeply understand them, and then you can start to build from that place of empathy and understanding. And once we actually get into the sort of details of how the framework works,

you'll see that it makes a huge difference. And the reality of it is, is that most products fail, not because they're badly built, but because they're actually solving the wrong problem. And here's how it works. There are five steps. The first step is to empathize and talk to your users, understand them and understand what's frustrating them.

This is like a whole function now at tech companies. There's this whole sort of group called user researchers and this is what they do like all day long. It's like so baked into the tech building sort of like process now. The second is to define what's actually the root problem here. The third is to ideate. This is to brainstorm and don't censor yourself. No idea is too crazy or too out there. The fourth is to prototype.

build a scrappy, low-stakes version of what you think the solution could be. And fifth is to test. Put this in front of users and watch how they react. Watch how they behave and what they do, not just what they say. I can share an example from my own experience, which is that when I was working at Snapchat, one of the things we were doing is working on building out augmented reality shopping. And the first sort of vertical that we focused on was beauty. So the idea was that we would use augmented reality to sort of like help.

you shop and decide what sort of like lipsticks or mascara or blush, et cetera, that you should buy. And the idea is that you would try it on through Snapchat. So before we actually did that, we went to a beauty store out in L.A. on Abbot Kinney and spent an entire afternoon there just like watching people interact in the beauty store and like seeing how they decided what to buy and like talking to them and asking them about their process of like how do you decide what you need for beauty? Like how do you, what do you look for when you're trying these on in store? And then using that, that was basically the entire sort of like user interview section so that we could really understand what their needs were, like how important being in

store was versus where they really just trying to see it like on their skin and compare the color or was it really important for them to actually be in person. So that's kind of, and that part was really fun. So that's what I was saying is that like doing. the sort of user research is actually not just very enlightening. I think as a like a builder and a, you know, a builder of products, it's actually a really fun part of the whole process. Totally. And it sounds like there was a lot of empathizing you need to do and a lot of observation. Okay. And the mini exercise for this section is to pick one problem in your life where you feel kind of stuck and then think through the five steps of design thinking. Now ask yourself.

the person that I'm designing for, what are they afraid of? What are they needing? And how can I better and more deeply understand them? It might be your boss, your partner, or your customer. First, write down all of their feelings first and things that you can observe before brainstorming any solutions. And we want to hear from you guys. Comment your answers below, especially if you had like an aha moment or anything like that.

And we'll reply to our favorite ones. And next is Framework 2, which is test and learn. Gene, can you tell us about this? Yes. Okay, I love this one. Test and learn is a framework, but it's also very much just an entire mindset. This framework is taught in Stanford's startup garage, and it's also now in a book called Lean Startup. The whole point of this is to stop waiting to be perfect, to just start trying things and being scrappy.

And for most students and honestly, most people, this is a giant wake-up call because everyone is so used to being perfect and thinking about the strategy. instead of just going out, putting out something scrappy, and just doing it and trying it. And the biggest lesson here, which is kind of a little bit controversial, is that a lot of times your really well thought out business plan is nothing more than a fantasy. And the main takeaway from this framework is that your MVP, or what's called the minimum viable product, is what actually teaches you everything you need to learn to build out your product. And many times when you put your MVP out there and you get a response from your customers, your business plan will definitely have to pivot and change. Yeah, for sure. I feel like a good example of this is our own experience.

Well, Gene and I about a year ago developed a business plan for Tiger Sisters and it was a pitch deck basically. And the idea was that Tiger Sisters was going to be a reality TV show. But we had a little MVP. We tested things out. We talked to a lot of. of people gather data and soon we realized this was not the right time or the the right environment macro environment to start that idea and so that business idea you know for the most part that strategy went out the window and now we have a pivot of that idea which is tiger sisters the podcast which is what you're watching and listening to right now yeah and i would say the MVP like if you guys go back to watch our first few episodes they were very MVP first of all we just had one camera we were sitting at the

kitchen table. We had way worse mics. We didn't have these awesome mic flags. It was just everything about it was much lower quality. But the whole concept was like we think we have, you know, good ideas and lessons and conversations that are important to put out there. And I think people will really love to sort of like be a part of this community and conversation. So let's just put it out there, even if the actual like quality of the video is not as high as other podcasts or as we could make it. Which honestly was okay to start with because it totally worked. I think we were still delivering value. The information that we were putting out there was it sounds like really helpful and we read every single comment and we know the quality had to improve because you guys were like,

the microphones suck and we're like, we know we're trying to do better. But everything has been test and learn for the last nine months for us on this podcast. Yeah, exactly. But I guess the whole concept like bringing it back to MVP or minimum viable. product is that if we were waiting and like put all this effort into making the perfect set and like having the perfect equipment and having like all the perfect angles before we put out the first one, it would have been, I think, much slower to actually get information and know what to do because it would have taken so much longer for those sort of startup costs versus just putting something out there and then reacting to the market. Yeah. Basically seeing how you guys

react to our videos. Yeah. Some other ways that other companies have done it in the past is even more MVP. So like a really good example of this is Dropbox. So the way they started their MVP is that they built zero product. They literally made a three minute marketing video describing how Dropbox would work and they released it. And in that one day, they got 75,000 signups for it. So based on that, they were like, oh, shit. People really want our product. Like let's actually build it out. And the online retailer Zappos did the exact same. They didn't start out by having a fulfillment center. They bought shoes at a local store and shipped them manually just to test out to see if people would purchase them online. I thought of another example. Another one that is pretty

well known and a little bit more recent is class pass, which when they first launched and they were sort of like matching people up to different classes, everyone thought it was, you know, obviously see some sort of like automated system. But in reality, it was just a spreadsheet and the people who worked at ClassPass manually signing people up for those classes on the back end. There was no technology actually behind it. They were just like, okay, let's see if this concept even works. And let's, you know, do it manually ourselves and pay for it ourselves. And a fourth example that I just have top of mind for me is with DoorDash. It's the DoorDash lore with Tony Shue, the founder, one of the founders and how DoorDash started was that they just put up a website. I think it was called

like Palo Alto delivery. It was like there were a bunch of Stanford students. They would take in an order on the phone if anyone called in and made like a food order. The DoorDash co-founders would then make the order themselves at the restaurant and go pick it up and then deliver it themselves. And it was super manual in the beginning, but they saw that there was proof of concept there. Yeah, same idea. All right. Now on to the mini exercise. And I think you guys know what's going to be. So basically, think of one problem that you've been thinking through and you haven't sort of tackled yet. And now think of the simplest way you can test it out. Maybe it's a Google form. Maybe it's an Instagram post. Maybe it's a text message and just do it. And that's all it takes to get your first learning. And then tell us, tell us in the comments what you guys do. And honestly, the answer or the clarity that you're looking for is probably hiding behind one very simple test. And if you wait for the perfect moment or the most opportune moment, likely someone's scrappier will beat you to it. Okay, Sherey, now let's move on to framework three. It's reversible versus irreversible decisions. Take it away. Okay, let's talk about decisions and

decision making. This one is pretty famous and called the Bezos framework and it's a little bit spicy because supposedly this is what they use at Amazon. And it all stems from this infamous memo that Jeff Bezos wrote a million years ago, which was about type one versus type two decision making, where type one is irreversible and then type two is reversible. And the gist is that people usually treat every decision like they're exactly the same, that they're all irreversible decisions. And what that does is that makes decision making a lot slower. and that's actually what kills innovation. Okay, so just to review, type one decisions are the irreversible ones.

These are the ones where you have to think very slowly about it, have a strategy, and think about the long-term effects. So move slowly here. And then type two is reversible. These are ones that you should experiment on and move quickly on. So important decisions should be type one. They should be irreversible, like hiring the first engineer, the first person on your team. That's pretty important and you need to get that right. So that would be an irreversible decision.

Experimenting with something on your website, changing the color of a button. That's type two. That's reversible. You don't have to give those type of decisions as much brain power because you can just experiment, test and learn and move on. Yeah. And I can think of aside from Amazon, like thinking about my own experience, I feel like entire companies are based on the premise of type one versus type two decisions. So for example, when I worked at Zinga and we were working, I worked on Farmville the whole time, like all different iterations of Farmville, we were obsessed with type two decisions because we experimented on everything. So like every single thing you ever saw on the screen in Farmville. And this is true for so many like websites and games that you see and you interact with nowadays was tested. So whether the button was like a total like rectangle with sharp edges versus a button with rounded edges, we test that. So that sounds like a throwaway decision, but things like that would actually make a difference. And we could move really quickly on just testing them all the time and not worry too much about like an irreversible outcome, basically. Okay.

So it's time for the mini exercise. We want you to make a list of all the decisions that you have to make. They could be big ones. They could be small ones. And next, we want you to sort them into type one irreversible or type two reversible decisions. And for the decisions that are reversible on your list, go and try to test one of them out today. Make a small test and learn MVP and see what results you get. I think my main takeaway from this framework is that doing things at speed is a skill,

but also knowing what deserves speed versus deserves a lot of intentful thinking. That's strategy. Startups die not necessarily from bad decisions, but from slow ones. So those are the first three mental operating systems that I learned while at Stanford. The first is design thinking. The second is test and learn. And the third is irreversible versus reversible decisions. And these aren't just frameworks that you use to build decks or sort of like do inane busy work.

These are actually tools that we use every single day in our lives to build faster, to launch, and to get unstuck. And I would say not just in work, but also in sort of like your everyday decision making for things outside of work. For example, reversible decision versus irreversible decision, getting a divorce, put it into a certain bucket. Is it reversible? Is it not reversible? Sometimes it is and sometimes it's not. It's funny. Yeah. It's like dating versus getting married.

What do you mean? Like dating is a reversible decision. decision. Like you can just be dating and then break up. Yeah. Or if you're married, then you're connected by the law. It's harder to break up if you are married because there are a lot more legal loopholes to go through. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. We did say we would wrap up. And throughout this episode, we had a bunch of our mini exercises. Please let us know if you try it. And we love to hear what some of your learnings are in the comments below. We read every. comment and we try to respond to every single one.

See you guys next time. Bye. Quick pause. Here's a productivity hack for you. Outsource your content curation to us. You can count on us to bring you the well-researched ideas, topics, and conversations that people are having. To help us keep making this content, subscribe now wherever you get your podcast, YouTube,

Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And we're launching a Tiger Sisters newsletter coming soon. You can sign up in the link in our description. And now back to the show. Okay, guys. So that was part one of everything I learned at Stanford's Business School. So Sheree, why don't you kick us off with some reflections from part one? My favorite part is when we talk about type one and type two decision making, basically irreversible versus reversible decision making.

This is something that I see so many entrepreneurs and also friends get stuck hung up on because we treat all decisions like they are the same, like they are irreversible. like making your first hire, like buying a house. Like a lot of decisions are reversible, but when you treat them all the same as irreversible, it just slows you down in life. And like we discussed on the episode, so much of life is just test and learn, trying new things. And if you're very slow with your decision making, you are also very slow with how you iterate. You're unable to test and learn quickly. And so just your pace of life, your pace of learning, your pace of iteration is so much slow.

lower than it could be. So really think deeply about the decision that you're making, whether it's changing jobs, whether it's deciding whether or not to go to a business school. I have a funny story here, whether it's breaking up with someone or even getting into a relationship with someone. Is that reversible or irreversible? One of my friends got into both Harvard and Stanford's business school and he decided to go to Harvard. Seems like a pretty irreversible decision. hold up in the first week at Harvard Business School he goes I've made a grave mistake I've made in grave error so he dropped out he you know he removed himself unenrolled from Harvard Business School waited for the next year and applied to Stanford's Business School again and then went to

Stanford Business School in my class so I never heard this before so you think that this is an irreversible decision no no no no name them I'm just kidding but me later. Hi. I didn't know about this story. That's interesting. Yeah. So point being, we think so many of the decisions that we make are irreversible. They are actually, for the most part, reversible. That's a good example. Right? Because it seems so determined and like, oh my God, I've committed. But like, he got out of it and he went to Stanford's business school. Not a bad decision. Did he get his deposit back? That I don't know. Likely not. That's still reversible. That's still reversible with a very minor cost. So I want you guys to consider in your life what decisions

you are making and I honestly urge you to make your decisions faster. I have something to add to that which is that I was listening to the episode again while I was taking a walk and I was thinking something that we could add to this conversation or or like consideration is a, how do you make more type 1 decisions or seemingly irreversible decisions into type 2 decisions, reversible decisions? So there are a lot of methods that are already built into like everyday life that allow you to do that. So for example, the idea of doing an internship, right, that's how you get to try out a job and see if you like it.

You can try out an industry and see if you like it and turning the decision into a type 2 decision, a reversible decision, as opposed to just like accepting a job and like, a contract for a whole year or something. So that's like already a way that's like baked into the world to make decisions more reversible. So it's just kind of an interesting thought exercise. I feel like if you're coming upon a decision that you think is an irreversible decision, what are ways you can kind of like finagle it or work it to try to make it into a reversible

decision? Yeah. I love that. Something that my late professor, Joel Peterson, says from he's a Stanford professor is take things off the binary like if there's if it seems black and white there's a whole lot of gray in between if it seems reversible or irreversible what is the in between where you can do an internship or just come up with some creative solution so it's not either this or that take things off the binary okay that's it for part one and now we're going to be going into part two

Okay, part two, I love this one because this is when we really get into the nitty gritty of using these really like business oriented frameworks and principles and applying it to your personal life, which as you know is kind of like a tiger sister special. Like we'll take learnings from our exes and apply it to business and then we'll also take business frameworks and apply it to personal life. So watch out for that. And here we are starting part two. This is the next part of our most downloaded series.

which is basically everything we learned at Harvard Business School and the most important tools we learned at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. So for each of these tools, once again, we're going to do two things. One, we're going to approach it like a real HBS Harvard Business School or Stanford GSB case study, which means we're going to bring examples from real companies and brands and from our own work experience. And the second thing we're going to do is that for each of these tools,

we'll actually have a mini exercise that we can work through right here on the spot so that you actually experience the learning. as we're going through the podcast. And as you're going through the mini exercises live with us, we would love to hear from you guys. Please drop in the comments, share some of the things you're thinking through, and we read through every single comment

and we'll try to reply to all of them. The first framework is called jobs to be done. And honestly, this is one of the most misunderstood ideas or frameworks in product or marketing. This framework was first created by Clay Christensen during his time at HBS, but we learned this at Stanford as well and obviously took it to the next level. Hmm. Okay, so here's the core idea in a nutshell.

People don't actually buy products. They actually hire them to do a job in their life. And most of the time, that job is actually emotional, not just purely functional. And at LinkedIn, we use this framework all the time. If you take LinkedIn profile, for example, why do people update their profile? Is it for visibility? Is it for validation or is it to get hired? Knowing which job you are using the product for or your customers are using the product for really helps you understand what to build. I thought of another example, which is our own product, Sisters Macha. You might think that people are buying Sisters Macha just because it's an ultra-premium, super high quality, like amazing-tasting Macha.

but I think having talked to some of our customers, a big part of why they're buying it is because they love the narrative and the story behind it. And like we've spent a lot of time sharing that narrative, how it comes from a small family-owned farm in Wazuka, Japan that you and I both worked on. And like we've shown that whole journey of how it's made. So I feel like part of the reason why people are hiring Sisters Macha, our product, is that they are also kind of of getting that sort of experience of being a part of that whole sort of like community. Mm-hmm. Okay, so now let's do the mini exercise, which is think about your product, your service, or

even your role at work, and be super, super honest with yourself. What are people hiring you for? Is it for your competence? Is it for your confidence? Is it because you are calm in the eye of the storm? is it because you are entertainment? Personality higher. Think about it and then put your answers in the comments

so that we can see what you guys are doing. Okay, Framework 2 is about decision trees and expected values. This second framework can really save you from decision-making paralysis, also known as how to make the big important decisions in your life without losing your mind. Think of it as a way to force clarity when the state, are high so that you have both qualitative and quantitative methods. So the next time you have a really big decision to make, use this process. There are four steps. One, list out all of your options. Two, sketch out the possible outcomes for each. Three, assign a probability and a payoff.

And four, determine the expected value by multiplying the probability with that value. Okay, that sounds a little bit complicated, but I'll give a solid example. So for me, one time when I used this is when I was going through job offers, and I was looking at this job offer that basically looked amazing on paper, and there were all these different components to it. So what I did was I mapped out three different outcomes for this job, right? One was best case scenario, one was worst case scenario, and then one was the most likely scenario. And then I kind of put a number to each of those outcomes, a value, basically, and then I multiplied each of those by the likelihood of each of those happening. So the most likely one was the middle case. And then when I mapped that

all out and I compared all the different outcomes, at the end of the day, it was kind of a meh offer despite the fact that it looked so amazing on paper. Meanwhile, you can compare that to another option, which is entrepreneurship, which actually looks really risky on paper. And most of the time you can assign a very low value to it because you're not making that much money at the beginning. But the option value and the upside is actually huge when you map it out using this process. And the biggest companies out there don't just use their gut. They actually use frameworks to map out what are the potential options and which ones are most likely to happen. For example, Netflix uses this framework to greenlight their TV shows and movies.

VC firms use this framework to better understand what companies to invest in. And like Amazon uses this framework to better understand their pricing models. Yeah, I mean, gut instinct is cute, but billion dollar companies, they use math and they use expected value. And I think it's really cool that you can take this framework that companies use in day-to-day business and honestly apply it to the smart. decisions in your life. I think even worse than making a bad or a wrong decision is staying stuck. People often delay decision making because they're afraid or scared of being wrong or looking wrong. But this framework actually shows you how to be wrong safely. And at that point, you have the most informed decision that you could possibly make. So then you get to choose.

Something that's really ingrained in my head is that the LinkedIn product officer has a saying, he says I may be wrong but I'm not confused and that's something that people like quote back to him all the time. That. Who says that? His name is Tomer Cohen and he's head of product of LinkedIn. And he says that all the time when it comes to decision making because he's not afraid of being wrong. I like that. But he's not confused. He knows the decision that he's made and, you know, he rolls with it. Yeah. Maybe I'll borrow that. Maybe I'll say instead like, I may be wrong, but I have clarity. Exactly. Do you like that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, time for the mini exercise. I love this part. So the mini exercise. So the mini exercise for this framework is to pick some sort of decision that you've been putting off and is living rent-free in your brain and then actually do this.

Map out two to three potential outcomes for this decision, assign some sort of value to each of those outcomes, and then also assign a probability to each of those outcomes, multiply those out, and then you get the expected value for each of them. And once you model it out, the whole point is that it doesn't have to be perfect. it just has to be putting something down on paper so that you have more clarity than the swirl that's going on in your head today. And if you're open to sharing, we'd love to hear some of the decisions that you're thinking through in the comments below.

And the expected values. And when you end up picking because I am nosy and I want to know everything that's going on in your lives. Cool. And the last framework combines Stanford design thinking with our product management background. Life as a product roadmap or also known as using OKRs, which are objectives and key results. So Sheree, what can you tell us about this? I first learned about the OKR objective key results framework in the professional setting at work, but I think it's really cool because you can actually use

OKRs to plan out your own personal life, which is something that I do. Yeah. And so OKRs were actually invented by Andy Grove at Intel first, but it was also popularized by Google and also very much through Stanford's design program. And now it's pretty much used in, I would say, every tech company and lots of non-tech companies have also adopted OKRs. So at LinkedIn, of course, we have the professional OKRs. And these are like the larger goals that our organization shares. So we know what goal everyone is working towards for the quarter. But we also did personal OKRs. And we actually shared this on my larger team too. So basically you would have your larger goal and see how you would measure that goal in your personal life.

And we would share this with our team. So everyone else would know kind of what we were doing in our personal lives as much as you wanted to share. Yeah. But some funny things are like if people, their objective was to get into better shape, they would be like, that's their goal. Their key result is, oh, I need to go to the gym for days a week. Some of the people on my team shared, they wanted to get better at dancing or they

wanted to learn piano. But then we could kind of know more about their personal lives. So it was like a fun activity in that way. Yeah, we actually did this on my team too. And it was also helpful because when you share your okay-Rs, then everyone else on your immediate team knows something that is very important to you personally. And they can actually support you through it. So I remember someone did have the goal of like, oh, I want to go to the gym three times a week.

So like knowing that if this person was sort of like running late for their gym class, we'd be like, no, no, no, don't worry about it. Just tackle this later. Go make your gym class. I know what's your personal. OKR. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah. And supportive. Yeah. At a supportive team. Yeah. I think it's fun also to share because in that way, you have social accountability too. So that like by the end of the quarter when we also did our review session of our personal OKRs, because like you can put a goal out there and put it out to the world, I have this objective, but you might not accomplish it. Then everyone at the end of the quarter was like trying to rush to make their OKRs if they could get something, you know, in by the fin, when the finish line was approaching. Yeah. But let's,

Let's like continue to roll with this example of explaining how to use OKR. So like if your objective is I want to get into better shape by the end of this quarter, you know, within three months, what are two of your KRs or key results that you would go along with it? And also explain what a key result is. A key result is how you measure your goal or measure that you achieved your objective. Okay. For example, it could be something like if your objective is to get into better shape, a key result could mean something like very numbers driven.

Like I want to go to the gym three days a week for five weeks in a row, for example. Or by the end of this quarter, I want to be, I don't know, I'm not like a gym bro, but I don't know, like 20% BMI or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Like you have a number. 20% body fat or something like that. So like you have a number that you can track week over week to see also how you're making progress towards your goal.

Yeah. So like in the business world, most of the time, okay, ours are related to, you know, like major strategic goals or like growing the business. So it might be your objective is to hit this level of growth in the company. And then the key results are like achieve this sort of revenue in, you know, this sector of the business and then sign on like 25% new customers in this part of the business. But you can see how it actually can be, it's very extensible and you can apply it to your everyday life. in a way that's really helpful. And it makes the objective or the goal less scary because you get to break it down into very actionable milestones that you hope to see to show you that if you accomplish these key results, then you will have reached your stated objective. Yeah. And then one last thing I'll say about it is that actually a very powerful part of going through the OKR process is even just figuring out what sort of key results would ladder up to

the objective and like going through that exercise because then it makes you like think about it. Like if I actually want to achieve this, what are the things that I have to do to like ladder up to that outcome? Why laughing? Because I just had a core memory activated. In 2020, I was trying to make like a fashion styleware brand because I was really bored during COVID and I actually considered calling it OKR, which now upon reflection, and five years later, I understand how lame that is. But that's how much I like love okay ours. It's funny.

Well, you would have had to like go back and and like come up with another thing that it stood for. Yeah. Like it could stand for objective key result and like something else that's like trendy, fun, and cute. But like the idea came to me because I love okay ours. Yeah. That's like there's this one of the main company, one of the main car manufacturers in the world that is Chinese. It's called BYD. and originally BYD stood for something that's like Chinese,

but when they opened up to the Western market, they renamed it and they said BYD stands for Build Your Dreams, allegedly, allegedly. Which is a pretty cool name for a company. Yeah, I love it. I have to think of something for OKR that's less lame. I think the other good thing about OKRs is it makes you shine a light on what is actually most important to you and write it down,

because without OKRs, a lot of times everything can feel urgent and you're just like, I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to do this. And then you're kind of just like tackling things as they come and you're not really being as effective as you could be. True. And like if you're in the corporate world and like people are asking you to do ABCD and like asking for your time to do stuff, if it doesn't ladder up to your personal OKRs, you can like choose whether or not you want to do it.

You're a professional OKRs. Yes. You can choose whether or not to do it because it honestly, might not serve you. So it like kind of serves also as a guardrail of like what success could look like for you in the professional world, but also the personal world too. Yeah, that's a great point. That's a, I feel like that's kind of like another episode, but just a little teaser is that a lot of times people, if they ask you do something, you'd be like, oh, well, I would love to do that, but I actually have to focus on XYZ first because that's my stated OKR. Yeah. Like not that it's an

excuse because it's a very valid excuse, but like you can very much point to a goal that you are setting out to achieve that everyone else has visibility into. On the other hand, it's kind of disastrous when your OKRs don't necessarily ladder up to the OKRs of the org that are like the org that encompasses you. That's a whole other story. Yeah. Dun, done, done. To be continued. Let us know if you want to know more about that. we have thoughts. That goes into our power and influence episode. Go check it out in season four, where we talk about influencing in the workplace. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. If you guys enjoyed our recent episode about communication with Professor Matt

Abrahams, you should check out his podcast, Think Fast, Talk Smart. Yes, this was one of my favorite conversations. And Professor Matt Abrams was my speaking coach when I did my TED Talk last year. We basically manifested this episode because we literally talked about him in an episode the year before. And then now here we are besties with him and recommending his podcast. Check out Think Fast, Talk Smart. It's a podcast that comes out twice a week on Mondays and Thursdays. They go over everything about communication and speaking, whether it's presenting, small talk, networking. They cover it all.

And communication is such a universal topic. There's something for everyone. And the mini exercise for this framework is to set a personal OKR for you. What are your goals? And how will you measure success if you achieve that goal? And it could be a totally personal goal. So for example, the goal could be, I want to improve my mental health. So that could be the objective.

And then the KRs could be KR1, do three sessions of therapy this quarter, KR2, journal twice a week for the school. for this quarter, and then KR3 take one full rest day. So that's, yeah, I love it. I'm going to borrow that OKR. Okay, now we're going into the takeaways, the last part of the episode. And these are the three frameworks that helped change how we think. The first is the jobs to be done framework, which helps us decide if we're solving the right problem. The second is the decision tree framework. It helps you stop spiraling and make the right decision. And the third is the OKR framework where you can prioritize what matters. So if something landed today in this episode, don't just nod

along, do these many exercises and actually commit to posting your answers in the comments so that we can see them and then we can actually respond. And you guys know we love to respond to the comments. Thanks. And we'll see you next time. Bye. Okay, guys, so that was part two of everything I learned at Stanford's Business School. I know sure you have a lot of thoughts about part two. So take it away. Yeah, to quote also, again, the late Joel Peterson, one of my favorite professors from Stanford's Business School, we had a class called Engineering a Remarkable Life. And this class was taking business principles and applying it to our personal lives, which is what we do on Tiger Sisters. And it was basically

a curriculum. And so something he did in this class that kind of reminded me of what we did in this episode is, you know, like, when you have assets and liabilities, like on, you have a balance sheet, it's an accounting principle. You have assets and liabilities. Joel Peterson, my professor, made us do that with our life, made us look at all the assets we have in our life. And they could be financial assets, but it could also be like personal assets, like your personality. It could be like physical things or intangible things. And then also look at the liabilities that you have. My sunny disposition.

Is a liability. No, but like real. And liabilities obviously could be like, I have to be a caretaker for someone in my family. That is something that, you know, maybe liability is not a great word, but it is something that is a responsibility. A responsibility of yours. Or I have student debt up the wazoo. That is a liability.

So in this, literally. Literally. Literally. And so our professor made us do this. class, but that same idea holds with what we're trying to do in this episode where we take all these business principles and apply it to your life. Yeah. Wait, so what was the point of that exercise? You would, like, you would list out all your liabilities and then your assets. And then what was it just to kind of like a way to assess your life and like have a holistic overview?

Yeah. So this was about, I think either a 10 or 12 week course with every lecture having a theme. And this class, I think this was class number two, was you needed to do a life accounting. We needed to know where we are starting from in order to figure out where we want to go and how far it is to get there. And so you had to do your assets and liabilities in class two, taking a step back. In class one, the first thing we had to do was we had to write our family history. We had to talk to our family and as much as we can deep dive into what are our roots and what questions do we have about our roots?

and we had to write like a one page like write up of like who we are where we came from because we need to know where we're starting from. Okay. So guys it's been on our slate. It's been on our docket for a very long time to turn this class into an episode. Yeah. At least inspiring a remarkable life. And I actually think it's really beautiful how you quote

Professor Peterson. Professor Peterson all the time. Like all every day. He recently passed away a few. months ago, which is really, really sad. But his teachings and his learnings obviously live on through me. Yeah. And I think it's like really beautiful that you're taking his teachings and amplifying it and bringing it to an audience that would never otherwise have received it because one, he's now passed on. And two, because, you know, most people can't go to Stanford Business School. It's like very, very, very difficult to attend. And even of the people who got in to Stanford Business School, not everyone can take this class. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's like a sold out class.

It's really hard to get into, right? Yeah. I've heard about that. Yeah. So I'm really happy that I'm able to share some of the learnings and let us know if you want to hear more of it. And if we can turn that into an episode in the future, I think that would be fabulous.

Yeah. And I just think like, you know, not to pat ourselves on the back or anything, but just to say, like, this is emblematic, I think, of Tiger Sisters. Like, everything that we do is so much, like, of ourselves and, like, truly our internal, selves like brought to you guys and thank you for just bringing your whole self and your learnings and your experiences with Joel Peterson. Okay so the next thing I wanted to comment on is the

decision tree section and I love how you walked through how it exactly works and some of the math that you need to do to figure out whether or not you should be making a certain decision. Yeah. Very back of the envelope math. Yes. I had a conversation with one of my classmates that was related to decision trees, but it is a new framework that I want to bring to you that I'm curious to hear your thoughts. It also has to do with a bit of probability and thinking, but it's very, very simple. So imagine you are a cat and a cat lives many, many lives, right? They say cats live nine lives. Let's say in this example, you have 10 lives and you have a decision that you have to make. One that I've grappled with is, do I want to have children? That's a pretty big decision. I only have one

life in reality right now and I'm like yes no how many whatever so in this imaginary life where you have 10 lives how many of those 10 lives would you choose to have children and so for me it'd be like maybe in three of those lives I will travel around the world not have children and be a cool auntie and you know live my childless life but I think in reality seven of those lives I would love to have children or I would love to explore that world. And so I really like this exercise because I'm like, okay, I'm like 70% sure. I want to have children. And you know, you can apply this exercise to like, do I want to live abroad? And how many of my lives would I be living in Paris and living my best life as like a, I don't know, Parisian podcaster? Maybe like two out of the 10 lives, I would have

an international life. But maybe eight out of the 10 I would be in the U.S. Right here. Right here. States of America. In the United States of America, America. So I think it's just an interesting exercise when you're confronted with a question and you don't know the answer. Like, how many of my lives would I actually do this? What do you think? Okay, well, first of all, this is a conversation you have with your friends. Do you not? Nerd. Nerd. This is my friend Peter from business school, shared this framework with me. When was this? A few years ago. But I think it's like an updated version. or different version of decision trees. Hmm. Well, that's a very deep conversation.

We were in Portugal. Things happen when you're traveling. Well, also, something that I actually thought that made me kind of sad related to one of my exes and this framework was that I'm like, someone I've dated in the past, it was so serious in my heart that like I would have given one of my lives to be like explore that relationship. Yeah. With that person. And I actually told this to that person. And they're like, what? They're like, nerd.

But like that's how like, you know, it's just like I would have chosen. Like that could have been a path of my life in my mind. That's how serious it was. Yeah. I mean, I guess another way to think of it is instead of being like, if I have 10 lives or nine lives or whatever, it's like taking your current life and like dividing it into different years, right? Poor crux.

What? Poor crux. You're saying horrid. I don't know. You're dividing your life. And like, oh, like you have one timeline and you're doing different chapters. Yeah, sort of. I mean, that's the more realistic way to think about it.

Mine is more of a thought exercise. Right. Because, I mean, that is kind of because you brought up the X thing. That's kind of a way that I've thought about like my time with my ex. Because we, my ex-fiancee, because we spent so much time together. Like we were together for eight years, which is a. pretty significant portion of my adult life. But I don't know, I've kind of come to a place or come like a place of internal understanding and a place of peace with it where I'm like,

oh, I kind of think, I guess eight years is a very long time. And yes, a lot of those eight years were my like, I guess like childbearing years, like optimal child bearing years, etc. but I'm like maybe that was the right amount of time to be with that person for the state that I was in. Yeah. And now that time is done. Now I'm in a new state and I should be with in the future a different person for the new place in my life that I'm in. That makes a ton of sense. Like yours is more of a timeline.

We're bending space and time here, guys. This is some wrinkle in time shit. Yeah, right? This is, um... Which I read, I think, in like, second or third grade, and it blew my mind. I don't think I've even actually read it before. You've never read a wrinkle in time. I don't think so. I, like, read it, and I was like, what?

Like, I think that's the first, um, science fiction book I'd ever read. And it, like, blossomed or it grew my love for science fiction, which I love science fiction, guys. Um, and then I, it also, I was like, wow, the universe. The universe. It really, like... The different time. It opened my mind. It changed my life forever.

For me, that was interstellar. For real? I don't know, maybe. Shout out Matthew McConaughey. Shout out Matthew McConaughey, come on our podcast. Yeah, actually, he wrote a whole book. Green Lights. I've read it. Actually, you have?

Yeah. I read sometimes. I didn't see it on your list of books that you read. This was in 2022. Okay. All right, Matthew, come on. Come on our podcast. I think we'd have a good conversation. So now we are finally going into part three of everything I learned at Stanford's Business School.

My favorite, but also pretty controversial topic that you should pay attention to in this part three is power mapping. Alrighty, let's get into it. You're doing everything right at work. You're hitting deadlines, being a team player over delivering, but somehow they still don't see you as a leader. I spent over $250,000 on my Stanford MBA. And yes, I learned the hard skills, the frameworks, the case studies, the mental models. But honestly, the most important things were the soft skills that are kind of invisible. And these are the mental operating systems that help you build trust, influence,

and to actually lead your team, your manager, your clients, your investors, pretty much everyone around you. And so today we're going over the three most powerful frameworks I learned at Stanford's Business School and how we apply them to our everyday lives. Okay, let's do the first framework, which is giving feedback the right way. So this is rooted in Stanford's infamous course, which is called touchy-feely, and it's officially called interpersonal dynamics. And it's all about how to give feedback the right way. And it's not just used in Stanford. It's also a really big part of now Netflix's culture deck. Yeah, this class is extremely competitive to get into. You have to rank it very high. I feel lucky because I ranked it and I was able to get into it. And I took this class last winter. Actually, side note, my ex, like, 15 years ago went to Stanford GSB and we like broke up. But then he broke no contact to tell me that taking this class changed his life. And he like sent me all these notes from it, which I don't think I ever read at the time. But he was like, this class is amazing.

It changed my life. Everybody cries. Yeah. It's kind of a right of passage for people to cry in the class. Not that like the facilitators are doing it on purpose or anything. But like so much of self-discovery comes out in this class. that it just happens naturally. Okay.

Well, so you guys are going to get the learnings without even having to cry. Maybe they'll cry while watching this. I don't know. Or receive notes from your ex-boyfriend. Breaking no contact. One of the biggest parts of this class is a training session

that you do with a group. And basically you sit in a circle with 12 other of your classmates. And for like three hours, there's no curriculum. You just sit in the circle and people will start to say something. You're like, wait for someone to say something. And then conflict will kind of

automatically arise. And then you have to say, like, when you said this, I felt this. And we learned the SBI framework, which is really important to giving feedback. Wait, so you just like sit in a circle for three hours and you have to like kind of like dis each other? You don't dis each other, but it naturally comes up. You just imagine sitting for three hours in a circle. You're just waiting for someone to say something. Okay. And so you have to start with kind of a complete. or a lament or something or giving feedback kind of or like you kind of comment on what is going on in the dynamic like someone will be like going like this or something and then a classmate will be like frederick can you stop doing that it's like really annoying me but frederick's like um i have like a tick

and i have to do it what this is wild frederick's like i have a tick and i this is like makes me feel really comfortable and by you saying that like you want me to stop like that's kind of crossing my boundaries and everyone's just like what is going on and then frederick and this other person will kind of go back and forth and then another person will jump in and be like when you gave feedback to frederick i thought it was really really callous you didn't consider like that's like the curriculum for this class for three hours and okay yeah it's pretty intense and as you can see it can kind of escalate yeah but the point of that is that so that you can actually learn and then practice the framework. Exactly. You can learn how to give feedback and also receive feedback in a way

that makes you more empathic and you understand and like how the other person is feeling. So I'd love for you to share a little bit more about the SBI framework that we learned. Yeah. Okay. So the SBI model, S stands for situation, B stands for behavior and then I stands for impact. So basically what you're supposed to do is use each of these three to give your feedback. So situation, when and Where did this happen? Your lament. B, behavior. Talk about what the person did objectively with no judgment.

And then I, you talk about the impact of how it made you feel or what the effect of their behavior was. Yeah. And I think the most important thing here is that the feedback is very specific. It's not vague. And I think I'm also, I suffer from this as well. Like if you're giving feedback at work, you want it to be as specific as possible to the situation.

So that's how people kind of know and context. actualize your feedback and have a way to improve. The most important thing is that the feedback is grounded in observation. It's very specific observation that no one can contest. It's like this is the observed behavior that we both saw and it's how it made me feel. Yeah. And Stanford professors, they emphasize that a lot of times the reason why feedback fails is because most of the time people jump straight to the impact. People say, well, you made me feel bad because X, Y, Z. And instead of actually doing the first two parts work, the two parts first situation and behavior.

Actually, the most important thing that I took away from touchy-feely is not really the you made me feel bad. It was more the, I felt bad when this happened, you know, because then when I say when, it's like the behavior and we can both agree that that happened. And a key distinguishing factor there is intent versus impact. and something that we learned is that you're never supposed to assume the intent of another person.

You have no idea what's going on in their mind. We call that crossing the net. You'll never cross into what is going on in someone else's head. So don't assume intent, but you can talk about impact and how someone's behavior impacted you. And so by using this framework, what you can actually do is you can diffuse the defensiveness that people usually typically have when you start, you know, when you go with them straight with the impact. And so this is a really good and like grounded framework for giving impact both in your personal and your professional lives. Giving feedback.

Yeah, sorry, giving feedback. And actually I have used it in giving feedback in my personal life. And it worked. To whom? To like a guy I was dating. I gave him some feedback. You use the SBI? Yeah.

Well, I used, I especially intentionally used the thing you just said, which is saying like, oh, like, I felt X, Y, Z or like, oh, when you did this, when this happened and you did this or the situation occurred, I felt X, Y, Z. So that it was more about, like, me and not so much like you did this. Yes. So, and it worked, it worked well. Yeah. They were very receptive.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. And then they even said, like, thanks for telling me that. Oh. Yeah, like, I'm really glad we talked about that. That's, oh, really? A great response. Wow.

Yeah. Results may vary. I don't recommend trying this on your parents if they are immigrants, if they are immigrants. And you guys have not had this conversation before because results may vary. Or just no results may vary. Yeah, or yeah. We are not liable. And it's actually not just used at Stanford.

It's actually a framework that's used in a lot of corporate settings. So at Microsoft, they train all of their new managers and S-S-Ey- because it's part of their performance review system. And also I know that at Adobe, they actually were using SBI to move away from their annual reviews. And apparently it increased employee satisfaction. And I feel like a real life example so that you guys can kind of see what this looks like in the workplace and in a personal life. So in the workplace, it might sound like this. In yesterday's client pitch, that's the situation, you interrupted me.

You interrupted me. No, it didn't. While I was presenting our strategy, that is the observed behavior that no one can contest for the most part. And it made me feel pretty undermined and less confident in front of the client. And that is the impact. And again, it's the it made me feel. It made me feel. Or I felt.

Yes. Right. Yes. Okay. Another example that is more personal that you can use with like a partner or a roommate or something is it would go something like this. When you left the dishes in the sink last night, situation, even though we agreed on cleanup behavior, I felt like my time and effort weren't being respected. Impact. You bitch. Yeah. So I think it sounds simplistic. So we would love for you

guys to practice this. We have a mini exercise for you. So maybe think of a moment where you felt really frustrated with something or with someone and just write it out, write out the situation, the observed behavior. and the impact, how it affected you. And if you say it out loud, kind of in the way that Gene and I practiced, it feels, you can tell it feels less confrontational and more conversational. And it's actually, like, just reflecting on it, I think it's kind of amazing that just a small change in syntax, like it doesn't seem like it's such a big change to say, like, you made me feel versus I felt or like to, you know, put stuff in this specific order.

when you're giving your your someone feedback but it really does make a difference yeah it's actually it's really cool yeah it's a bit disarming yeah yeah it's like the power of language yeah sometimes i use it on you okay do you do you realize that um if not that's good that means it's woven in seamlessly you're you're you've had many many hours of practice yeah i've had a lot of practice with this. And as Jean knows, I'm in my confrontational phase of my life. So that like if something, if something bothers me, I will share it, but not in a confrontational. Sorry, not in like a mean confrontational way. I just like don't bottle things in anymore. I'm more willing to express it. And honestly, using SBI. And then one last, okay, one last extra level up. If you want,

you can actually take SBI and use it the opposite way to actually ask for for feedback. So for example, You can say, when I shared the product plan in the meeting, S, situation, what stood out to you about how I presented it? B, behavior. And what was the impact on the team's decision making? I impact. And that's how you grow faster. Don't just wait for feedback.

Design for it. Okay, so giving feedback actually gets you heard, but this next one is what keeps you remembered. It's the difference between being respected and then being promoted. Hey, guys. So it's come to my attention that many of you don't know, Gene and I have a matcha brand called Sisters Macha that we created and founded ourselves. What? No way. A Mata brand? Yeah. We started it in October 24. Gene and I have worked and lived on this Macha farm in Japan. It's sourced from Wazuka, Japan,

which is an hour and a half outside of Kyoto, and the brand means the world to us. It is a small family-owned farm, and we actually travel back to the farm and handpick the Macha ourselves. So you can find out more about Sisters Macha to try it, check it out, buy it. Buy it. At sistersmacha.com. That's sistersmacha.com. And already, back to the show. So Framework 2 is actually called Power Mapping.

And this is based on an infamous Stanford class called Pads to Power by Jeffrey Fever. Yeah, I didn't actually take this class, but I have so many friends who did. It's one of those really famous classes that you need to prioritize in order. to get in. But the biggest takeaway from this class is that success isn't always about merit. It's about understanding influence, visibility, and alliances. And if you don't understand power, you'll lose to people who do. Sounds threatening. It is a threat. Right. And power is definitely not the same thing as title. So what Fephyr teaches in this class is that power is about who controls the resources, who's influencing decisions, and who's actually pulling the strings behind the scenes.

this is something that really rings true for me. And it's something that I feel like I was subject to, I was a part of that I actually benefited from for the first half of my career, all without me actually noticing or like really knowing what was going on. Yeah. And then I think this is not something that I actually realized until the last six years of my career and like maybe didn't even start to implement or like play a part in until the last three years.

Yeah. Because I think when you're early in your career, like a lot of things happened behind the scenes with the higher ups and the execs and your boss and your boss's boss that you're kind of not privy to. But as you get more senior, you're looped into those conversations and you kind of understand a little bit more about how the sausage is made. Yeah. Like in the political environment at work. So then you're like a part of it. Right.

And it actually becomes your job to influence these decisions and kind of, I guess, maneuver in a way to help your team and like progress your goal. I mean, it sounds kind of Machiavellian because it is. And it's not saying that this is like the only way to do things. That's like one of Jeffrey Pfeffer's like starting overtures or something. Yeah. Premise. Yeah. Starting. Prefis. Yeah. It's one of Jeffrey Pfeffers like starting disclaimers with the class is that he's saying what he believes to be true. It's not the only way to go about life or go about like work relationships or politics at work. There's other ways to. do it, but you should at least know that these are the power dynamics and power moves that some people abide by and some people are, you know, moving the chess pieces around. So just like be aware that they exist. And this class is also guest lecture based. So Professor Feffer invites people into his class who have made those power moves and they share stories of where those power moves

really worked out for them. This class sounds so good. I wish I could have taken it. Yeah, I didn't take it, but like I said, a lot of my friends did. And honestly, some of them gave very mixed reviews. Many people enjoyed the class because they're like, oh my God, I never even thought about that. That's so smart of how to like gain influence and power. And then other people came out of the class being like disgusted. They're like, I cannot believe people do this or think this way or treat other people that way in order to get ahead. But like I guess their eyes.

Like pawns on a chess board. The pawns on a chess board. It's very house of cards. And yeah. I think it's up to viewer discretion, right? On the chessboard of your life, are you going to be the queen or are you going to be a pawn? Goddaim. Well, it's up to your discretion, right?

You get to choose what is within your bounds of feeling comfortable to implement. Yeah. And also, Jeffrey Feffer wrote, Professor Feffer wrote a book about it too. Yes. So even if you can't take the class, if this is really interesting to you, as a follow-up, you should buy or borrow the book. and we'll link to it in the notes for this. Actually, one of the reasons why I didn't take the class

is because older students said you could just read the book and it's basically the class. Mine is the guest lectures. Okay. Cool. Or other people say you could just watch Tiger Sisters this episode. Yes, I think a lot of people have said that as well. Or they will say that.

They will say that. Once you send them this video, they will say that. Okay, so I wanted to give you guys a case study and I have a really interesting one here, which is actually contrasting two people. people, one who did power mapping seemingly all right and one who did it seemingly all wrong. So the one who did it right is Cheryl Sandberg. So she's pretty, you know, well known. And I think what a lot of people don't know is that she actually started her career, not in tech, but in

government. So she was the chief of staff at the U.S. Secretary, which is where she kind of first started at the U.S. Treasury, which is where she kind of first learned to understand where power sits behind the scenes, and she was basically learning influence. She was learning how decisions are made at a very high level. Then the next step that she did was she joined Google, but not in a technical role because she wasn't technical, but it was actually in a biz ops role. And she reported directly into Eric Schmidt. And what was important was that in this role, she actually expanded her power map a lot because she was in such a cross-functional position. And she became like the go-to cross-functional partner and she built out her sort of like web of influence and then finally she met mark Zuckerberg

at a Christmas party in 2007 she what's so funny I'm just imagining that Christmas party 07 zuck in a Christmas sweater you were in like I was in seventh grade she was in seventh grade she couldn't make it I couldn't my invite got lost in the mail I needed parent permission to go to this field trip but so by the time she actually met Mark Zuckerberg at this party, she had already built out what was her most valuable asset, which was her web of influence, like her web of all these different relationships that she had across Silicon Valley. So that's why he brought her on, not just for her like strategic mindset and her like ability to be a really strong COO and partner to him, but for her power map.

And it was a power map notably that actually extended across multiple sectors. So not just tech, but also government. And so I think the main takeaway is that the way that Cheryl went about this was that she wasn't trying to accumulate titles throughout her career. She was trying to accumulate influence. And it was actually influence across all these different sectors, tech, public sector, and then eventually leadership in a company. And then just really quickly, what will contrast this with as the sort of downside case is Carol Bartz, who was this really well-known and respected CEO who came in to be the CEO at Yahoo. And basically she was brought in to kind of turn the company around. But legend goes, what happened is that she focused all her energy into really just more the tactical aspects of the turnaround.

And she never took the time to like build out her power map within the company. So when she tried to do these like pretty radical moves that, you know, objectively would have been the right moves. She didn't have the allies within the company to support these moves. So eventually she was actually fired. through a phone call. Legend has it. Was it a 30 second voicemail? a la Joe Jonas and Taylor Swift breakup.

Something like that. This is probably the corporate version of that. The corporate version of that. Damn. But yeah, so there you have it. Like the reason she lost out isn't because she wasn't capable. She was incredibly capable. That's why she was even put in the role in the first place.

But it's because she didn't play this power game that Jeffrey Pfeffer talks about. And I think what Jeffrey Pfeffer always teaches at Stanford is that power isn't actually about being right at all. Power is about having enough support and alliances to survive being right. I wish this mic was separated so I could drop it. Do you guys like that? Replay it. Just remind 10 seconds. So our mini exercise for this section is for you to map out your own power web. Choose five people who will influence your next opportunity, whether it's a raise or a role that you're trying to get or a deal you're trying to close. Are they advocates for you? Are they neutral? Or are they unaware of the situation? Pick one of those people to then connect with this week.

That is your homework. And we'd love to see some of your comments below. Maybe not the person's name or anything, but kind of how you're thinking about it. And if you're doing these many exercises. Yeah, because I'll say you can't afford to ignore power dynamics even if you're brilliant. Actually, if you're brilliant. Because being excellent without visibility is a silent career killer. Man, all these things are invisible and silent at the same time. That's actually why they're so dangerous because also people don't talk about them. Yeah, except for us.

Except for us. And also I think they're invisible and silent because people don't realize that it's happening. Yeah. And the people that do realize that it's happening, like they're not going to tell you because they don't want to give away their edge. Yeah. Except for us. Except for us.

we're different like that tiger sisters we're different like that that's funny and our last and final framework that we're going to talk through is executive communication this framework is actually based on strategic comms a class with matt abraham's shout out to matt i actually had the pleasure of working with him as a communications coach when i was doing my ted talk last year that's so cool what a sentence. Yeah. What a sentence. Thanks for coming to my TED talk. She doesn't even need to show off. She just speaks the truth. Well, I always wanted to create a Instagram post after my TED talk and write the caption, thanks for coming to my TED talk. But I forgot to do that and the time has passed. But you guys know that I had the intent. It's never too late. It's never too late. It's never too late. Fine. Maybe I'll

do that today. That's so annoying of me. But anyways, so, um, Matt. Abraham's was the comms coach that I one of the communications coaches that gave us feedback on our talks and I'm excited to talk through some of his advice and he talks about the SCQA method as created by Barbara Minto and it's all about communication with clarity through this framework. Yeah and I think we'll get into the actual framework but I think the takeaway that we can start with is that your ideas are only as powerful as your ability. to communicate them clearly and effectively. I used to think that being smart meant giving long, detailed explanations,

but actually in the business world, if you can't get to your point in 30 seconds or less, people will tune you out. Right. So that's where the SCQA framework comes in. So S stands for situation. C stands for complication. What's the challenge?

Q stands for question. What are we solving? And then A is answer. What should we actually do about it? So why don't you give us a practical example to start with? I really like this because the SCQA framework gives you a way to storytell so someone can clearly follow your train of thought. And here's an example.

Let's say you're pitching a shift in marketing spend at work. And instead of saying, we've been testing different channels and thinking maybe we should try, blah, blah, blah. You should say right now, KAC is rising faster than LTV. That's the situation. If we don't adjust, we'll overspend. That's the challenge or complication. And what's the solution? You're kind of asking them, prompting them, telling them that there will be a solution coming up.

You're giving them the answer. We shift 40% of our spend to UGC creators. So it's just a way to model out what you're thinking and someone can follow step by step and understand your communication much more clearly. Yeah, I like that. I think it's clean. It's confident. and you're speaking with the type of clarity that builds trust.

Because being clear is more powerful than being smart. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. Actually, sometimes being smart or like too smart can actually hold you back. Totally. Because you can't convey your ideas clearly. And then it's, that's why, I mean, I don't know if we should take it there. But that's why a lot of times Donald Trump's communication is so powerful

because he kind of like dumps everything down to the most simple word that you can use. So instead of being like, this is despicable, he'll just be like, this bad, this very bad. Instead of being like, this is a comprehensive bill that, you know, will uplift people around the world who'd be like, big, beautiful bill. This bill got a lot of stuff in it. Literally big, beautiful bill. Yeah. In my winning writing class with Glenn Kremont at Stanford, we had an exercise that we had an exercise that we, we would do to simplify what we're saying. And so like we would start the class. This is just a

famous writing class at Stanford. We would start the class with our laptops out and he would put on like 10 terms that are not like that complicated, but they definitely can be simplified. And just simplify, simplify, simplify, that's a good exercise. Yeah. That's like a bonus mini exercise. A bonus mini exercise. For your for you to do on your own time, not during this podcast. Oh, and then just to bring it back to our case studies where we're always talking about the different companies that actually implement this, SCQA is actually used at Amazon very frequently because every time they launch a product, they actually write a six-page memo ahead of it. And a very big part of it is actually writing a sort of like fake press briefing of like what the product would be when you, when it's being launched. And that part, they use SCQA.

And the way that they use SCQA in this press release at Amazon is to explain the problem, the user pain point, and what the product clearly solves. It's very simple and easy to understand. Okay, and the really quick mini exercise this time, think about a problem that you're working on, write it out using SCQA, and then say it out loud. That's it. That's your entire pitch. And if you want to take it to the next level, actually take what you wrote and read it out to your friend.

And if your friend can repeat back your idea in one sentence, then you've done it right. If not, try again. So every single one of these three frameworks helped change our careers. And we use these daily to build our company, our startup together, but we also use them in real life with our friends, our partners, and some of the examples that we shared. Okay, guys, that was part three of everything I learned at Stanford's Business School. Sheree, what was your main takeaway? Guys, I know it's controversial and it's going to be ick feeling, but we got to do it.

It's power mapping. And I think this is so underrated. And you don't have to do in a group. You don't have to do it with anyone else. It can just be private. Basically, what it is is looking at the people in your network, the people in power and the people who have the ability to help you get you to where you want to be. This is with Professor Feffer, Jeffrey Feffer, in his class paths to power, something that you do as an expert. is you look at all the people in your network and you figure out what are like who are the people who can help you.

Some people might feel really ick about this, but this is what the curriculum is and what they teach at Stanford's Business School. One way to make this feel less ick and less transactional is once you've done your power mapping of the people in your network who can help you, figure out ways where you can help them. I think networking can feel very uncomfortable or awkward because it feels like you're always taking and taking, but that's not what networking is at all. The first step of networking is making sure you have something to offer. And when you create a deep relationship in that way, you want to just naturally help each other. And so this might seem like a weird example, but over the last two days, I've had people ask me for help and I was able to connect them. them to someone else in my network who would help them. So one of my best friends was like, hey, I'm starting my solopreneur journey.

I'm leaving the big tech world. And I don't know how to set up my business. Can you connect me with one of your Stanford friends who's done this? And I texted one of my friends, Alex. And I was like, hey, Alex, I explained the situation to him. Would you be willing to talk to my friend? And then he's like, absolutely. That's totally great.

Also, by the way, Alex is telling me this. He's like, I'm fundraising for my company. Do you know anyone at this VC firm that you used to work with? And could you connect me? I said, absolutely. And then so I shot an email to someone that I worked with at the venture capital firm and sent the blurb over for my friend Alex, who is fundraising. Meanwhile, Alex is going to talk to my friend and do me a favor too.

Good damn. So this was... All this stuff happened this week? This happened this morning. What the? You need nimble fingers. While I was sleeping? You need nimble fingers.

It's just sending a text back and forth, sending an email back and forth. And I have no promises. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll introduce you to my partner at the VC I worked at. No promises. But yeah, happy to make that intro. Yeah. And then he's happy to talk to my friend for like 15, 20 minutes and help them out with their solopreneur journey.

Damn, guys, Shere's a connector. Damn. So you're the hub. That's networking. And also within my friend group and also my classmates. She goes, that's networking. That's networking, maybe. That's networking, baby.

But also, I have a good reputation. Like, people want to help me. Like, I can just, I texted my friend Alex, who I haven't spoken to in over a year. You know, like, he's my classmate, my friend. We've built enough trust. And then he was the first person I thought of when my friend was just like, can you introduce me to someone? I was like, yeah.

Like, Alex is a friend of mine, a classmate of mine. And I think he's really helpful and nice. And so, yes. And then also, I'm a thousand percent. happy to help Alex connect with the venture capital fund. Yeah. I think another interesting thing in this conversation is that that I thought of is that you want to be thought of as an Alex, right?

Like you want your friends and your coworkers and people in your network to think of you and be like, yeah, actually this friend, they'd be willing to help out and I want to connect them with other people because then you get connected with more people. You have more opportunities, right? Yes. also because I randomly messaged Alex, I knew he would be a nice enough person that I haven't talked to him in a year. He would still be receptive to helping me out. So helping your friend out.

Helping my friend out and helping me out in turn. Right. But like I knew you want to be thought of as an Alex because in that way too, I reached out to him. And then it's the perfect time for him too because he is fundraising. And he needs help being connected to a high powered VC fund. And I have that connection as well. So I randomly reached out to him. and I randomly could be helpful to him as well.

Yeah, I'm sure you were helpful. You connected him to Bing Capital Ventures, which he used to work at. Yes, exactly. And you feel abundant. I think a lot of people, I feel like a lot of people play things very close to the chest. Like, this is my connection. This is my person. Like, I can't introduce you to the blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like, that's not how I feel at all. Like, I know just putting the pieces together, more amazing things will blossom. And I want Alex to succeed. And I want my friend's venture capital fund. And I want my friend's venture capital fund to succeed. So like it only makes sense that they talk to each other. And we have more abundance mindset around it. This is the Tiger Sisters Way, guys.

So power mapping. Damn, all this happened this morning? Yep. Wow. You really are like a power networker. Why are you so surprised? This is what I've been trying to tell you this whole time. Because I guess I was sleeping when all this happened or something.

That's true. That's true. A lot of things happen at Tiger Sisters HQ while I'm sleeping. And also while I'm sleeping. That's why Jean and I work so well together. We only have a certain... We only intersect for eight hours of the day when we're both awake at the same time. And that is in the morning, like the late morning and afternoon where we intersect because I go to sleep early and go...

No, I've been improving my sleep time. Jean has been going to sleep really early. I've noticed that. She's been getting up way earlier. I've noticed. been noticing that you're up when I'm up in the mornings. It's actually really impressive. I'm so, I'm really proud of you. Thank you. I've noticed that. Yes. Like when I'm like bumbling around the kitchen around like eight or nine a.m. You're up. Wow. But that also means you're getting to sleep earlier,

I think. Yeah. Sort of. Sort of. Yeah. I am. I am. I'm proud of you. Thank you. Okay. So the last thing I'll say about part three is that while I was rewatching it, I was like internally screaming because you mentioned Professor Matt Abrams in this episode and you were like singing his praises and you were talking about like all the things you learned from him. And then lo and behold, one year later, we did an episode with Professor Matt Abrams and it was everything we ever could have dreamed of and more. Yeah, he's amazing. And I'm so grateful that like you were able to like through your natural networking connections having worked with him before and the virtue of the fact that we both have now top business podcasts we were able to collaborate and like i got to be in his presence

and like learn from him and do a tic-tok dance with him and now i'm like matt is one of my friends he's absolutely he's magnetic he is so kind he's so warm so smart he you just want to be in the room with him even longer you know what i mean you just want to sit and just talk to him Because like I could just absorb so much of his wisdom. And I'm just so happy we did that episode with him. I know. But it's just so cool because we like mentioned him as this really smart person that you learned from one year ago. And then we were able to bring him on the podcast.

It's amazing. Check out our conversation with Matt Abraham's. It is a master class in communication, in executive presence, in small talk and how to apologize. all the things you need to learn to talk to anyone. And so check out that episode. And I'm just really, really proud looking back on part one, two, three of everything we learned at Stanford's Business School. Like what an amazing deluge of information and frameworks that we're able to provide.

Yeah. And also I think there's something to be said for us like manifesting the episode with Professor Matt Abrams. So like I feel like whoever we mention on our. our podcast, it's eventually going to happen. Oprah. Oprah. Looking at you. Emma greedy.

Emma Greedy. Matthew McConaughey. As we mentioned earlier. Reese Witherspoon. Reese. Yes. Reese come on our podcast. President Obama. Michelle Obama.

Anyways. If any of you guys know these lovely people, we would love a connection. We would love an email. If you know any of these folks. and we love to have them on our podcast. Thanks, guys. We'll see you next time. Bye.