Tiger Sisters - Goldman Sachs Insider: 28-Minute Crash Course on the 10 Commandments of Wall Street Survival (Part 2)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Goldman Sachs is kind of like a cult. They give every single employee on the first day these 10 rules to follow. I would know I used to work there. This is part two of dissecting the 10 golden rules of Goldman Sachs. I'm Sherey, I'm Gene, and where are the Tiger Sisters? In this episode, we're going to talk through rules 6 through 10 of the top 10 tips for success at Goldman Sachs. And if you're watching this, yes, this is a 15-year-old piece of paper that I received on my first. day of work of Goldman Sachs University when I started working at Goldman in my first job out of school.

Starting point is 00:00:48 So just should we recap the first five really quickly? Let's do it. Okay. Number one, and we talked about this all in the last episode, so after you watched this episode, go back and watch the other one. Part one. Yeah. Number one is manage your own career. Number two, challenge yourself, defy intellectual boredom.

Starting point is 00:01:06 Number three, build your network and relationships broadly. number four hold yourself to the highest standards the firm does number five never talk business in the elevator slash lift in part one we go through rules one through five and we kind of give our take on it what it meant to jean at the time when she was working at goldman sacks and kind of best practices and tactical ways you can put some of these rules into practice into your life immediately after watching the episode yeah and examples of how the the rules actually worked for me and shrie And we'll get started right after this break. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sisters matcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast.

Starting point is 00:01:59 Thank you for your support. Okay, welcome back. Rule number six, let's dive right in. It's seek consensus and input from colleagues. Gene, what are your thoughts on this rule? Yeah, I think this is a great one because on the surface, it seems really straightforward and simple, but the sort of idea and the sort of truth behind it is actually very deep. I think the number one misconception that people have of the workplace is that decisions are actually made in the decision-making meeting.

Starting point is 00:02:31 Would you agree with that? Say more? I don't know if I agree with it yet. I need you to say more. So basically, by the time you actually head into the meeting, let's say you're the one presenting something where a decision has to be made, you should know with 85 plus percent confidence what every single person in that meeting already thinks. And if they would vote essentially yes or no and for what reasons. And ideally, you should have spoken to every single person in that meeting already, know what their sort of concerns or rebuttals were and have addressed it with them one on one before you even go into that meeting. Yeah. I think put another way is that like, I know this is weird to hear, but like in the corporate workplace, so many of the public interactions that you see are very orchestrated in my experience. I thought when I was walking into a meeting with, you know, VPs and execs that like I was thinking

Starting point is 00:03:27 that, yeah, the stuff was happening right now. It was live. Oh my God, they're having these discussions. And sometimes they are. But most of the time, people, if they're smart, will back channel. that's like the more official way to talk about it, back channel and set up, you know, like Jean said, like one-on-ones with people to vet their idea first in a safer setting rather than like putting it, you know, everything all on the line with everyone in like a really high-stakes meeting. You want to do it in the low-stakes way first. And I feel like this is like, honestly, I mean, Gene and I did an episode on like the dirty secrets of office politics. This is one of the dirty secrets. And I honestly think the top 1% of performers do this. Yeah, basically you go into

Starting point is 00:04:10 the meeting already knowing what everyone thinks. And you can probably know the outcome of that meeting. Yeah, the meeting is more just a way for everyone to state it in front of everyone else. It's very political, but if you work on a big company in many sectors, that's kind of what happens. Yeah. So that's kind of the more like really specific. way to apply it, but I think in general, like, seeking consensus and input from colleagues, it applies to pretty much, like, even everyday low-stakes situations. The best way to get people on board with what you want to do is to have them be a part of it, to have them contribute to it, and even better to have them feel like part of it was their

Starting point is 00:04:53 idea that you are now executing on their behalf. The very, like, germ of all of that is having the instinct and having the sort of, like, golden rule to always seek input and consensus. One of the, I mean, one reason why brainstorm sessions happen. If you've ever been a part of a brainstorm session with your team at work, maybe this is like a weird truth, but like oftentimes people going into brainstorm sessions already have an agenda or like they know what they want to get out of the brainstorm. But it's also for the people in the brainstorm meeting feeling like they have a say, feeling

Starting point is 00:05:29 like that their ideas matter and the ideas do matter. But, you know, sometimes it's kind of a balance of both. So you're saying some people's ideas matter more than others. I didn't say that. That's misquoting me. Okay, moving on to number seven. Seek out mentors and manage them. This one, Gene and I have talked about it pretty extensively in previous episodes,

Starting point is 00:05:53 so I won't go too deep in them. But I would say the biggest hurdle for me is how much tiny amounts of time, takes to manage your mentors. It's kind of like an annoying thing you have to do, but it really pays dividends in the long run. For example, if you're meeting someone for a coffee chat who might be a potential mentor, it's super important to follow up with them, kind of like immediately. So like sending them an email that's like thank you for chatting and then like also include like thanking them for their time and including like something that you took away from the conversation. so it's not a generic email.

Starting point is 00:06:30 Thank you email to them. It's like, thanks so much for your time. I really enjoyed our conversation, especially when we talked about XYZ. It really left an impact on me in ABC way. It's like can be like one sentence or maybe two sentences, but just like kind of drawing back to the conversation to know that, to let them know you're actively listening.

Starting point is 00:06:50 Like write this email. Don't spend more than 15 minutes on it, in my opinion. You can use chat GPT to help you. And like kind of those like small touch points is like, managing your mentors and managing relationships in your life. Yeah. I kind of jumped right into being like the post coffee chat, what you should do with your mentors.

Starting point is 00:07:08 But I also want to talk about the pre-coffee chat, even before going into that conversation, one way you can manage your relationships with your mentors is coming very prepared. Like you should have a list of, you know, like 10 things you want to talk about. That might seem like a lot. But just jot them down beforehand, spend like five minutes being like, okay, it's this person. these are the things that I want to talk about with them. And this is why I need to talk to them about it and not some other person because they're an expert in this way.

Starting point is 00:07:37 Like make use of their time. Like it's really special to get time with someone. Like time is such a finite resource. It's the only resource you can't get more of. Except for that movie that was called In Time with Justin Timberlick and Amanda Saferied. Haven't seen it. But, yeah. So time is just such a finite resource.

Starting point is 00:07:58 you really need to like respect someone's time and come in prepared come on time and then of course send that follow up email yeah that's such a good that's such a good piece of advice because even not like even i but like listening to her i'm like i'm so not good at this sometimes like i love to set up the like actual lunch the coffee check because then you get to like meet with them in person but like shri said in the last episode i am much slower at writing emails just because i you think I have more of like an ingrained perfectionist mindset from working at Goldman Sachs. And I like procrastinate it more than I should. So it's just part in my mind. It's just part of the process. Like you shouldn't, not you, general you shouldn't go on a coffee chat with people

Starting point is 00:08:47 unless you're going to follow up. And I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect. Like I've, there have been times I haven't sent a thank you email and I kind of like kick myself. It's just not good form. And you know, I'm trying to practice what I preach. Yeah. But so, you said send the email and then also talk about what you got out of the meeting. Okay. I think that's a great template. Yeah. I mean, literally, you guys can rewind and then literally just copy what I said word for word.

Starting point is 00:09:11 It's like kind of generic. It's like, thanks for your time. I learned this and I'm going to apply it to my life in this way. It's like you're just making people feel good because then they feel like you're actually, you know, digesting what they say. And it just feels like they're helping. Yeah. I just imagine myself receiving an email like that and it's like, that feels good.

Starting point is 00:09:28 She got a dopamine rush. Yeah. Okay. The next rule is attention to detail is critical. Someone will notice. Yeah. So the reason this is a Goldman Sachs rule is because I guess the nature of what we were doing was managing, you know, deals that were worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And in the broader portfolio that we managed, it was hundreds of billions of dollars.

Starting point is 00:09:58 And actually now I looked recently, the group actually manages a trillion dollars. Millions of billions of dollars. No, a trillion dollars. I said millions of billions. I don't know. Does that equal a trillion? I don't even know. But isn't that insane that they manage a trillion dollars?

Starting point is 00:10:15 A trillion dollars? A trillion dollars. A trillion dollars. A trillion dollars. What is that? I don't know. You're just saying a trillion dollars. But that's like insane.

Starting point is 00:10:25 Yeah. So the... Just a little tea. Yeah. A big T. How many commas is that? Quachos comas. I don't know. Because a billion is Trace Comas. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:40 So is a trillion four? Quachotro? No, because you have. Oh, wait, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, what I'm saying is that the nature of what we were doing always felt like extremely important. And they really drilled that into us where they were basically like, we can. can never make a mistake. Everything we present to the client has to be perfect. Like, everything has to be perfect to the T. And if you miss a comma, that could be the difference

Starting point is 00:11:12 between, you know, getting the client or not getting the client or, like, messing up the investment and getting it to go through. So I will say that, like, honestly, I think we were a little bit too self-important. Yes. Because that was, like, looking back on it now, of course, because that was the time where I've said this before, but the CEO at the time, Lloyd Blankfein, told us that we were doing God's work. And like, me being 21 at the time, I was like, yes, we are.

Starting point is 00:11:42 I was like, is Lloyd Blank find the DJ? No, that's David Solomon. Okay. Yeah. No, Lloyd retired. Okay. But he was like the OG. Right.

Starting point is 00:11:50 Like he's Lloyd, you know? And so when he told us, that we were doing God's work, I, you're like, believed, I truly. Praise Cuban. That's a severance reference. You're like, praise Lloyd. Yeah, I was like, thank you. And yes, we are.

Starting point is 00:12:06 Yeah. That's kind of crazy because, like, I mean, it's important stuff because there's a lot on the line in terms of like money, but it's like not like brain surgery. Like, no one's going to die. I know. That was the thing that afterwards I was like, no one's going to die. But like everyone was so stressed out all the time. for internal meetings.

Starting point is 00:12:26 Yeah. Even for literally, if you were just putting together a memo or like a document to present to the same group of like 30 people that you saw every single day and worked with every single day, your goal was always perfection. It's exhausting. So you wonder why I am the way I am, why it takes me so long to write an email. Or I twitches. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:51 I do think, I do wish like more people. that I worked with, like, had that sort of mentality. Yeah. Attention to detail is critical. I mean, it's also the nature of your job, too, as an analyst. Like, everything about your role is about the details because, like, executives, MDs, VPs, whatever, like, their job is to, like, zoom out a bit more and, you know, think about strategy.

Starting point is 00:13:17 Think about, like, the bigger picture. And so it really is up to the analysts or the new grads or whoever's going into that position to focus on the details and you will be rewarded for that. Yeah, because the senior people are depending on you, the more junior people. Yeah. To present the information and have it be accurate because the decision making is massive. Yeah. Golden Rule number nine of Goldman Sachs is ask questions, assuming is too dangerous.

Starting point is 00:13:48 Amen. Period. Praise Lloyd. You freak. I love this one so much. Okay. I mean, you know that like, say more. Where I am now in life, I am such a big question asker.

Starting point is 00:14:03 Like, I am. You got to ask, like, how's the croissants? You have to ask, assuming is too dangerous. How are the croissants? I got to ask. Ask the questions. I grew up in an environment where I was actually pretty scared to ask questions to question authority, just like even like, I guess at home, at school, just the

Starting point is 00:14:24 that I was raised in and that led to me holding my tongue in the classroom in high school and college because I was just scared of looking stupid. I was scared of like challenging a professor or something which is like I feel like quite normal in American culture is to have discourse with adults and professors. And so I just like didn't ask questions but now I've developed a mindset over the last like decade of like ask the dumb questions because you will for sure. be better for it. Like, you'll understand, you'll clarify your understanding. And I think people, for the most part, if you're talking to the right person, will respect you

Starting point is 00:15:02 if you're asking the dumb questions if you are a smart person. Everyone hates, like in our Vutran interview in season three, like Go Max dumb is what he says. Ask it's smart to be dumb and ask the dumb questions. And if you pretend to be smart or pretend to know something, like you assume something, you end up as a midwit. Like you're neither smart. It's even worse to be a midwit.

Starting point is 00:15:28 Because then you think you're smart, but then you're actually not. And it leads you to make the wrong decisions. Perhaps. And it's dangerous because it could lead you towards the wrong decision. So I agree with you to ask the dumb questions. But I do think that you know how people are like there's no such thing as a stupid question. I vehemently disagree with that. There is a such thing as a stupid question.

Starting point is 00:15:51 and it's very different than asking dumb questions. A stupid question is when you ask something that's already been asked and answered. So that is like, I think, the exception to this. And I would add an addendum to this. So this one says, ask questions assuming is too dangerous. I would say ask questions, but then also carry around a notebook or something where you write down the answer. So you don't forget the answer to that question. and then once the question you've asked the question don't ask it again can you give an example

Starting point is 00:16:25 of like when it's been asked and answered no like if you've already asked a question to someone and they answer it to you and you just like don't write down the answer and then you like forget and then you ask it again oh that's the second question is a stupid question okay and you're asking the same question i feel like you're yelling at me right now have i done this multiple times no not you i'm just saying like people have done it Okay. So I guess, like, there are no dumb questions, but just don't ask the question twice. Because, like, to be a competent individual, you should be respecting people's time and writing down the answer. Yes. And just being, like, on top of it. Yes. And my point is that a question that's been asked and answered, especially by you to the same person, is a stupid question. You're asking again.

Starting point is 00:17:11 Not seems just kind of harsh. I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, I need to ask twice. I don't know. Or I can be like, oh, maybe I don't. I've asked this before. Sorry, I didn't understand the first time. Could you explain it in another way? That's different. That's a clarifying question. Okay. Versus asking the same exact question. Just because someone wasn't listening. Yeah, because you were listening or you didn't take the time to actually write down the answer. That's kind of like disrespecting. Or not disrespecting. That's like a little bit. You disrespect me on the day of my daughter's wedding. You come to me on the day of my daughter's wedding.

Starting point is 00:17:47 Nikki. Nikki. you asked me for a favor. Well, actually to that point, my manager, Albert, before I joined his team, I reached out to the people on the team. And at that point, he wasn't my manager. He was just, like, working on the same team.

Starting point is 00:18:06 And I wanted to learn more about it. So I reached out to him and got a coffee chat with him. I came. I do everything. I practice what I preach. I had questions prepared for him. Specifically looked at a LinkedIn profile, like, oh, you've been on this team for this long.

Starting point is 00:18:16 and then asked about the team, but then also asked about his own career. And I had a notebook with me. And when he was telling me stuff, I was like writing stuff down in my notebook, it's kind of a hard thing to juggle because you're like trying to make eye contact with them and then write it down. Like, you know what I mean? Like there's a balance to it. Yeah. But anyways, like later on when I was hired onto his team, he's just like literally no one has ever written down anything I've ever said before. He's like, you're the first person and he's like, I knew I wanted her on my team.

Starting point is 00:18:43 Did I tell you to do that? Or how did you know? I just know. I'm just good like that. I don't know what to tell you guys. It's probably me. No, it's just being respectful. Like you just, I wanted to be the best and I knew that's like one of the things to do. And like send a follow up email.

Starting point is 00:19:00 Thanks Albert for chatting with me. I'm so excited about the prospect of joining this team. Yeah. Okay. I think the reason I'm like fired up about it is because I feel like a lot of people don't do that. And it's such a simple thing to do. Like if you're talking to someone, you're asking. them questions like you should be writing notes unless unless you have like a

Starting point is 00:19:19 photographic memory okay and the last golden rule of Goldman's X number 10 is first impressions last a long time first impressions might last a lifetime some might say okay so a couple of things on this one I took a communications class at Stanford's business school and there was one lecture where we talked about first impressions specifically oh my god I want to know all about first impressions. Some statistics, first impressions are formed in the first 30 seconds of seeing someone, and they're composed of visual, verbal, and vocal. Okay. So there's like, you know, three Vs. But like what you wear, visual, how you're dressed up, how you represent yourself is super important. And this also comes to like body language as well, like nonverbal impressions. They can people

Starting point is 00:20:13 pick up on cues generally of like how you hold yourself. Are you confident? Are you closed off? Are you open? Are you like smiling? Are you serious? So like I think it's really important to like think about the visual stuff because a lot of people think about first impressions as more like vocal, verbal, like what you say. But it is a lot of like stuff even before you open your mouth. So that's really important for first impressions. And then obviously verbal what you say is is important like how you present. yourself and like introduce yourself to someone. And the last one is vocal. It's not just what you say, but it's also how you say it. Actually, I'll add another V. V number four, which was not in the class, vibes. I think that's pretty good. The vibes you give off to someone when you're meeting

Starting point is 00:20:59 them. Sheree School of Business. Accepting applicants in 2026. And impressions are formed in 30 seconds, they're really hard to change. You only get one shot at a first impression. You want it to be a good one. Yeah, I agree. I actually think for me personally, I think this is the lesson that it kind of took me the longest to learn, dare I say, 15 years. Because literally, like I'm kind of like nagging myself here, but literally Shri said to me today, she's like, oh, you finally learned how to do your hair. Actually, that was her nagging me. Rude. What a bitch.

Starting point is 00:21:39 It was compliment. I'm just kidding. That's a little sister compliment for you. No, but she's right. Like, I agree with you. And I think just in general, like the way that I grew up, I guess this is personal to me, but like I think maybe a lot of people will relate to this is that I felt like so much of my value was in like, quote unquote, being smart and working hard and like getting

Starting point is 00:22:04 good grades and like I just grew up thinking that that was sort of the end-all be-all and there wasn't I didn't really impute much importance into my appearance um what why you love me I'm surprised to hear that I feel like you've always been put together yes but that's more so because I love fashion and I like clothes and I like the art of it and that was more of like an area of interest for me, but I wouldn't say it was the same for like makeup or hair or like anything else outside of just fashion. So I guess maybe I was lucky that that just also happened to be like a natural area of interest for me that that worked in my favor in making first impressions.

Starting point is 00:22:52 But like for everything else, like I didn't really realize how important it was. And I thought that it was just like all you had to do. do is just like work as hard as possible and like prove your your worth to everyone and my worth in my mind was my mind. I think it's worth learning the lesson earlier on. It's like your mind, we want to be smart, but you also got to be put together to be taken seriously. Yeah, you have to present well. Yeah. Yes, you have, that's a good way to put it. You have to present well because in ways that we want to get ahead. Not everyone wants to do this, caveat,

Starting point is 00:23:36 but if you want to get ahead in the corporate world, you want to be put up in front of paying customers. You want to be put up in front of the client. You want to be put up to your, you know, partner's boyfriend, sorry, your romantic partners, like parents. You've got to present well. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:53 In some context, like you want to be like the person that they want to take home to meet their family. Yeah. I remember one. time my at Zinka, we used to like work really, really hard. And sometimes like literally, I remember I used, there was one time I was working in the office until 3 a.m., which is egregious. But like, there were times when like I would work really, really hard. And then I would kind of just like roll out of bed and then like rush off to work. I remember one time my manager said to me, he was

Starting point is 00:24:22 like, this is Harvey. He was like, he was like, did you brush your hair today? He was like, your hair looks well Harvey is also a gay man yeah who would also I can't believe you remember that of course I remember Harvey he also has a little dog named Pikachu yeah he had a bulldog named Pikachu of course but like that was kind of the first time anyone and I'm not saying I like ever looked like totally unkempt or something but probably that day I hadn't brushed my hair and I I have naturally straight hair anyway so like I think I I don't know sometimes I got away with it but that was just like no one had ever said that to you before And I was like, huh? You're like, what'd you say to me?

Starting point is 00:25:04 I was like, uh, what? I will say one more thing. Okay, not to, I realize we give a lot of Kardashian examples, which is hilarious because neither of us actually watch the show. They're just ever present. They're just like omnipresent in society. But one thing I remember about them is that they said that when they were in their very early teens, like 13 to 15, one thing that their dad did was he paid for professional

Starting point is 00:25:31 makeup artist lesson for all of the girls when they like right when they reached their teens. And like maybe it was like more than makeup. It was like it was like makeup and hair and like all that stuff because I guess he knew the importance of it and he wanted them to have the tools and the skills to like present themselves in the world going forward. I think that's so interesting. It's interesting because like not everyone grows up like knowing those things. or having family who like prioritizes those things.

Starting point is 00:26:04 Yeah. So oftentimes it has to be stuff that you learn on your own through like YouTube tutorials, but just like through your own interest and like intentionality around it. Because like, yeah, like if your mom or dad doesn't tell you to like use makeup, like you're not going to do it, you know. Yeah. Or like dress a certain way. You're not going to do it.

Starting point is 00:26:23 Yeah. I mean for us personally, I think our mom was always really, really into skin care. Yeah. That was her thing. Yeah. Like she always invested a lot, both like monetarily and like time wise, et cetera, into skincare specifically. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:38 And it shows like her skin is amazing for her age. Like so, so good. Yeah. And so like that I think we received the like generational benefit of. But she like almost, she didn't wear much makeup. So that wasn't something that we were like really learning how to do. Learned. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:56 Although I did watch a lot of YouTube tutorials with Michelle Thon. and that's where I learned how to do the smoky eye as a 13-year-old, which was very relevant. I'm just kidding. I don't think I've ever done a smoky eye, guys. Well, the smoky eye is the only makeup I know how to do on myself. So I feel like I regret sharing my story about having my hair not brushed. What are you? You're some like wild child with your hair and knots and stuff.

Starting point is 00:27:23 I don't even think it was that bad. Clearly it was if Harvey had to say something. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of the Tiger Sisters. This is part two of the top 10 rules of Goldman Sachs. If you're just tuning in now, go look at our part one video. It's already posted. And please remember to like, comment, and subscribe. If you're listening to this podcast on Alba Podcast or Spotify,

Starting point is 00:27:50 please remember to give us five stars. It makes a difference. Thanks, guys. We'll see you next time. Bye.

Tiger Sisters - Goldman Sachs Insider: 28-Minute Crash Course on the 10 Commandments of Wall Street Survival (Part 2)

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