Tiger Sisters - How Childhood Shapes Achievement, Self-Worth & the Feeling of “Never Being Enough” — with Harvard & Stanford Expert Jane Marie Chen

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Thank you SoFi for sponsoring this video. Sign up here: https://www.sofi.com/TigerSistersWhy do so many high achievers, perfectionists, and children of immigrants never feel “good enough”, especially around family and the holidays? In one of our most important conversations, we sit down with Jane Marie Chen — Harvard & Stanford grad, award-winning social entrepreneur, and author of the memoir “Like a Wave We Break” — to unpack how childhood trauma, family patterns, and achievement psychology shape our adult lives.If you’re healing from childhood wounds, trying to forgive your parents, or realizing that achievement has become your coping mechanism… this episode will hit home.We share:✅ Why achievement becomes a coping mechanism for so many children of immigrants✅ How childhood shapes your self-worth, ambition & need to overperform✅ How trauma lives in the body (and why talk therapy alone can’t release it)✅ How to set boundaries with family without losing compassion✅ Why overachievers burn out — and how to stop earning your worth💚 If you’re struggling with depression or mental health issues, you’re not alone:Call 800-950-6264 or text “NAMI” to 62640.If you’re in crisis, call or text 988.📖 To order Jane’s memoir: https://www.janemariechen.com/🐯👯‍♀️ We’re the Tiger Sisters — Your Wall Street & Silicon Valley big sistersDecoding Money • Power • Love✨ New episodes every Monday | Shorts all week ✨💌 Sponsorships: [e-mail]⏰ Timestamps0:00 Our most important episode1:13 Meet Jane Marie Chen2:17 Why Jane wrote her memoir3:30 Burnout, shutdown, and the turning point6:21 Achievement as a coping mechanism8:00 Children of immigrants and pressures to succeed12:35 Trauma in the body and why talk therapy isn’t enough16:51 Parts Work (explained clearly)18:57 Giving yourself the words you never got23:22 Boundaries + family: holding love and limits together26:46 Being complicit in cycles of abuse30:14 Power in speaking your truth32:24 The Whole Body Yes36:26 The beauty of surrender40:19 Success without fulfillment is the ultimate failure42:25 How to start healing when you’ve been numb43:45 Jane’s next chapter: coaching, alignment & where to find her👀 Newsletterhttps://cherieluo.substack.com/🪪 Why trust us?▫️ Cherie Brooke Luo – 100M+ views demystifying big tech, finance & MBAs▫️ Jean Luo – ex-Goldman, ex-Snapchat exec, 50+ AI patents, startup investorTogether: 4 Ivy degrees • Built billion-dollar products • Two startups — decoded for youWhat you’ll get (and keep):▫️ 🚀 Ivy League cheat sheets – no $250K tuition required▫️ Personal finance playbooks – salary jumps, investing, money psychology▫️ Networking scripts – behind $100M+ deals, job offers & VC intros▫️ Real talk with unicorn founders, VCs, and billionaires▫️ Mindset resets – clarity minus the pricey life coach▫️ Lifestyle, wellness, and productivity hacks that actually work💛 LET'S CONNECT~ CHERIE ~🤳🏻 IG – /cherie.brooke📱 TikTok – /cherie.brooke✍🏻 Substack – cherieluo.substack.com👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – /cherie-luo~ JEAN ~🤳🏻 IG – /jeanluo_👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – /jeanluo👉 Hit Subscribe & tap the 🔔 — then WRITE A REVIEW and rate us ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ on Spotify & Apple Podcasts! 🎵 Music: Sammy Signal https://open.spotify.com/artist/2HsyknHuxhT8RoZfn5rqMS🛍️ Sisters Matcha – www.sistersmatcha.com🌀 Everything else – https://amzn.to/3z0dx5bSEO keywords:childhood trauma, self worth, self esteem, high achievers, perfectionism, not enough, family triggers, holiday triggers, immigrant parents, childhood wounds, internal family systems, achievement psychology, therapy podcast, self-help podcast, Harvard expert, Stanford expert

Turning to your parents, how do you find peace, internal peace, in loving the people who made you, but who also deeply hurt you? This is a conversation that I don't think anyone else is having. Jane Marie Chen has a resume that is untouchable. Harvard, Stanford, nonprofit founder that's saved over a million babies, honored by President Obama. The list goes on. Often people with these perfect looking outsides come from histories of trauma. achievement becomes a coping mechanism because we feel like we're not enough.

We feel like we have to do more, be more, improve more. But when you're relying on the external, the goalposts will just keep moving. Nothing's going to be good enough. I think this is the most important conversation that we're going to have on Tiger Sisters because we've been talking about finding smarter ways to handle money

and now we've got a sponsor who's built for that. SoFi has joined Tiger Sisters as our exclusive finance sponsor that we trust for all. our finance needs. They make it easy to bank, borrow, and invest all in one app, and we are so excited to have them on board. This is one of the hardest conversations we've ever had on Tiger Sisters because it's something that we carry, but we rarely talk about. Childhood trauma, forgiveness, and the process of healing from people who raised us. If you've ever wondered how to forgive your

parents, this episode might change the way you see them and yourself. Jay-Marie Chen has a resume that is untouchable. Harvard, Stanford, nonprofit founder that saved over a million babies, honored by President Obama. The list goes on. Her memoir, like a wave we break, shares about what happens when achievement is a coping mechanism. It's about what it takes to forgive the people who broke you when they're also the people that made you and loved you. Trigger warning, we talk about abuse and self-harm in this episode. And if you're struggling, please know that you're not alone. We've linked help lines and resources in the description. Jane Marie Chen, welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast.

Yay. Thank you for having me. So Jane, we're going to dive right in to our questions. Sure. So in your memoir, you describe moments of physical and verbal abuse, like being hit by a belt, being slapped so hard that your glasses flew off, many things that immigrant, many things that immigrant children experience, but rarely talk about. How did you find the.

courage to not just talk about it, but to write about it in such a public way? Well, I think I really wanted to share the journey as a way to help anyone else who has been through similar experiences. And that meant sharing the whole journey and the hardest part of the journey, the hardest parts of the journey. And what had happened in my upbringing with regards to physical abuse, which I didn't even recognize as abuse. And I didn't even recognize as abuse until probably my late 30s. You know, so it was a wake-up call to me. And as I started sharing my story, I met so many others who had had similar experiences. And that's what gave me the courage to do this. It was in order to help other people, you know, and extend a lifeline

to others who are struggling with the same issues. You know, the book begins 10 years into the journey of my company, Embrace, which builds low-cost baby incubators for preemies in developing countries. It was a technology that my team and I invented at Stanford back in 2008, and we turned it into a company, and then I moved to India. And we made a goal to save a million babies with our incubators. And I basically made that mission my life. So I gave my soul to this work. And in that process, process, you know, I experienced so many setbacks and challenges and really was burned out, you know, at the end of this 10-year period when we faced a setback that was so big, we had to shut down the company. And at that point, I was just absolutely devastated. You know,

I felt like a complete failure. And so I decided to go on a healing journey. And I packed up a surfboard, a suitcase. I bought a one-way ticket to Indonesia, and I threw myself into healing, you know, with the same intensity I'd once poured into building my company. And so as I went through this journey, I finally connected the dots. That feeling so powerless through my childhood, that's what had given me the drive, right? The fuel to help the most powerless people in the world. But there was a shadow side of that and that it also drove me to work to really unhealthy levels at the expense of my own mental health and well-being. I mean, I just want to say that I respect and like venerate what you have done so much to like

put yourself out there in such a true and open way and like really be vulnerable about your past. Like I just know you are helping so. many people out there. And that's also why we were really, really excited and looking forward to this conversation because I don't think I've ever, like, read a book that had that level of, like, honesty and exploring these topics like yours. And it's important. It's important to talk about it to, like, put it down on paper and, like, put it into words. Otherwise, yeah. Otherwise, it doesn't get addressed. Before recording this episode, I was doing some reflecting. And I think this is the most important conversation that we're going to have on Tiger

Sisters because, of course, there's so many podcasts out there that talks about the business world and career and all these things to like up level. But like once you're there and reflecting on how you've got there and often the very painful ways to do that, I'm like, this is a conversation that I don't think anyone else is having. And I think it starts with you sharing so vulnerably in your book. Yeah. Thank you guys. And I actually see this particularly with high achieversions. You know, and we think, oh, really? Yeah, right? And we think, oh, people with perfect resumes, they've got it all together.

But often people with these, like, perfect looking outsides come from histories of trauma, right? And achievement becomes a coping mechanism. Achievement becomes a trauma response because we feel like we're not enough, right? And so we feel like we have to do more and be more and prove more. and we completely burn out in the process. And I see this particularly with entrepreneurs, with social entrepreneurs, but with also just a number of the high achieving people

that I'm surrounded by. But we live in a culture in which we try to escape our pain. Right? The moment we feel something painful, we turn to social media. We turn to substances. We turn to our work. And so a lot of what I've had to learn

is how to really face those people painful experiences and sit with them. And that's the only way through to the other side. And I think, you know, another aspect of this is what happens in Asian culture. And I think there are cycles of abuse that become normalized because they're considered a part of the cultural norm. And so that's why as I went through this journey, I felt it really imperative to call it out and to be more open about this, right? So others feel more seen, validated and less alone. And Jane, why do you think it is that children of immigrants or, you know, first-generation people feel that drive to achieve?

It's a way for them to feel safe. It's a way for them to sort of escape these other things that are going on in their lives. What do you think is behind it? I think there's a lot. I think a lot of the cultural expectations. is around high achievement, right? Whether that be in school or in our careers. I think there's also this pressure that our families gave up everything to come here, right?

And so we want to excel. We want to show that that was all worthwhile. And so we take it upon ourselves to, you know, to be the best that we can. I think that's all kind of tangled up in here. And then there's this like phenomenon. I see this especially in Asian culture of like nothing's good enough. Right. And so that's certainly how I felt for most of my life and all my upbringing.

And it didn't matter how many degrees I got or accolades I want or babies I saved. There was always this void that nothing could fill. And so it was that sense of like not enoughness, which I didn't know how to articulate back then. But I think that was also a result of, again, the abuse from my childhood. that as a child, you can't really make sense of it. And so you, you wonder, well, what's wrong with me? And then as an adult, you want to prove that you're okay, that you're worthy. And so I think that's what was driving me. And it was, I really believed in the mission of the organization. And as I said, my pain really became my purpose, right? It gave me so much drive to do the work that I do. And at the same time, there was this, like, dark shadow side of that. So, it was both things simultaneously. Do you think the context of like coming from a background where your family or your parents

gave up so much and sacrificed so much for you to get you where you are? Do you think that is a helpful driver or is it a lot slash too much weight to hold and carry? I think it's both. I think it's both. And I think, you know, there's this pressure that creates healthy drive. and then there's the point where it tips into being unhealthy drive, right? And so in my case, there was the drive of like wanting to do something good for healthy reasons. And then there's this other part of like needing to prove. And so I think once it gets into that needing to prove

category or feeling like you should be doing something, that's when it can feel unhealthy. And that's where I think we need to develop that awareness around like what our motivations are. And is this healthy for me just like from my mental health and well-being perspective. Yeah. I think Sheree and I, we actually talked about this topic a little bit on a really, really early episode of Tiger Sisters, like first season ever or something. I think maybe the way that we put it is that you kind of feel like the weight of all of your ancestors and like all of the generations that came before you. And it's like it's helpful to know your family history. But sometimes when parts of, the family history can feel so heavy. And I think this is true for like a lot of people,

a lot of communities, not just AAPI, but people who have some sort of history of like overcoming or like trauma or like escaping a terrible situation in their ancestral chain. Like you almost feel like you owe it to them. You're like, I am living out my ancestors' dreams like even just in my day to day life. And it's like how can I not like make it up to them? Like I need to do the most. with my life. I need to make the most of my life. I need to save a million babies because I can. And they never could. So like it's you feel almost this this like level, this like imperative inside you. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Achievement also ends up becoming safety. Right. Because we grew up in these environments where we're, we're, we're wanting to belong.

And we don't necessarily. Like we were with the only Asian family, one of the only Asian families in my neighborhood. Yeah. Right? So we didn't, we didn't belong. My parents didn't speak English. I moved to the U.S. when I was four years old. I didn't speak a word of English.

And so you feel like an outcast. And achieving gives you a sense of belonging, right? And so there's kind of a safety in that that we're also seeking. I want to talk a little bit more about your work with Bessel van der Kolk, the author of the Body Keeps score. You wrote in your memoir that the imprint of your father's violence was lodged in your body stuck in a survival loop. Can you explain what that means and how does trauma actually live in the body? Sure. Yeah. I think this was one of the big turning points of my healing journey

was reading The Body Keeps the Score by Mussel Vanderkulk. And up until that point, I think I had the belief that what happens in your past, just leave it in the past, right? Why deal with it? And I remember in business school, actually, I saw a therapist and he wanted to dive into my childhood. And I was like, I don't want to talk about that. I'm not, I don't want to play the role of the victim or villainize my parents. I have a life now. Let's move on. And what I, that's such a classic like coping mechanism.

Right. Yeah, exactly. It like helps you survive. It helps you survive. You'd rather just kind of sweep it under the rug. Yeah. And so reading this book was like completely eye opening for me. Because what I learned is trauma isn't just something that lives in your past.

It's actually something that rewires your brain and your nervous system such that you bring the past into the presence and it affects every part of your life. Trauma gets stored in your body in that way. Trauma is also stored in the limbic system. So this is the part of our brain that is responsible for emotions, for connections, not thinking. The thinking part of our brain is the neocortex. And so this is a big realization I had, for me, talk therapy never worked because you can't talk your way out of trauma. You have to feel your way through it.

And that was something, again, that was so eye-opening for me. Even on this healing journey, I basically, like, put on my CEO hat. And I wanted to try every healing modality. I had a spreadsheet of all the modality. If something didn't work, I would pivot to the next thing. And I wanted to find, you know, that magic elixir that was going to fix me. And what I learned is that instead of doing more, I needed to slow down. and I needed to feel.

I needed to feel my heartbreak. I needed to feel my fear, my anger. Yeah. All of it. Everything I'd been running away from. Right. And so it wasn't until I did that and did that through the help of teachers, healers, friends who created a safe space for me to go there.

That's when my healing journey truly began. Yeah. I really empathized when I was, reading this part of your memoir because I am such a doer and fixer. I have like such a fixer mentality. I'm like, okay, whether at work or in a relationship or anything, I'm like, okay, here's a challenge. How do I fix it? And like what are the top five things that I can do? Like, you know, and A-B test them and go through all of them, see if they work and pivot if they don't. So like when I was reading this part of your memoir, I was like, this is so me. And it turns out

the solution is not, or one of the solutions is not to be, you know, bringing my product manager, CEO momentum into it, but actually slowing down is so hard and quite possibly the solution to turning inwards. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard, especially because we disconnect from our emotions as a survival mechanism. Yeah. Right. When we're younger, because it's too painful to feel those things. Well, also because when you're younger, you don't have the, you don't have the tools to process it. Like, you don't know what to do with those feelings. So, like, kind of, I think the safest thing is to, like, put them away. Yeah. You don't know how to productively process them. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So as an adult, it's like learning all of that again, you know, and there's such

beauty in that because that's what makes us human. Yeah. And a lot. you know, is being able to reach into the depths of those emotions. And there's so much wisdom to our emotions. Is this what people call inner child work? Well, yes, we can get to that too. Yeah, that's part of it. I think the other really helpful part of my healing journey was discovering something called parts work or internal family systems.

And this is a therapeutic modality that's based on the premise that we all consist of a multitude of parts, right? So you guys might have the overachiever part, the control freak, the perfectionist, the inner critic, you know, I'm making this all up, but we all have these. Sounds plausible. Yeah, it doesn't sound that made up. So we have these parts that are there to protect us. And they're there to protect us from the parts that carry more painful emotions like shame, rejection, abandonment, right? And so the goal of this practice is to recognize these different

parts of ourselves. I had this like warrior part that one of my exes nicknamed Jenghis Khan. But the goal is to recognize and have compassion for each of these parts rather than to shame or to banish them to understand that they've all played a role in our. in our life, right? And so how do we develop self-acceptance and self-compassion based on this? And what I learned through this process was that part of me that was all about trying to, you know, do more and achieve more and save the world. That was protecting the part of me that never felt like I was enough, you know, that very young part of me. And so really pivotal part of my healing journey was having a relationship, developing a relationship with that part of myself.

And for most of my life, I wanted the rest of the world to show this part of myself that I was worthy. That's what all the external achievements were about. But when you're relying on the external, the goalposts will just keep moving. Nothing's going to be good enough, right? Everything you're seeking externally, you have to find internally. Yeah. I think we have. a lot of people in our community that I think are probably also really high achieving and can be really hard on themselves. So like what is something that they could do today to like stop being so hard on themselves and show themselves that level of like compassion that you say is important for for healing and growing? Yeah. Well, this is where coming back to your question about the

inner child work. I have a picture of myself on my desk as a five year old. And I, literally just have conversations with this five-year-old me, you know, and at one point in my healing journey, and this is through Bessel's retreat, so to come back to Bessel with my little overachiever hat on, after I read the book, I became so obsessed with him that I stalked him until he agreed to become my therapist. Yeah. And so did some like really important work with him over the last couple years. But at one of his retreats, he did something called a psychodrama. So this is a group healing like modality where you pick people in the group to play the role of your parents and they enact what happened. And then you go back and you find new people to play the role of your ideal parents.

And the idea is to give yourself the experience of a more loving or nurturing alternative to what happened. And so I watched this happen at Bessel's retreat and I was like, I became obsessed. I was like, this is the thing that's going to fix me. If I just heard the right words from the ideal father, I, you know, I would be whole and free. So I went around looking for the perfect ideal father, you know, and at one point, I recruited a man who looked like Santa Claus to play the role of my ideal father. Turns out the big, jolly white man was not my ideal father. But in the last chapter of the book, I talked about, like I recruited a friend to play this role. I wrote out every line that I wanted him to say to me.

And so he did this. He said all these lines. And I felt nothing. You know, I felt nothing. And so I took this picture of myself as a five-year-old. And I took that piece of paper. And I read every line to that little girl. I just said, you're enough.

You're worthy. You know, I'm so sorry that happened to you. And I said all the things. things to this little girl that I wished someone else had said to me. And it was only when I said those things to myself that I finally felt something. You know, and I realized that, again, all the things we're looking for from other people have to come from within. So how do we develop that relationship with ourselves, right? And that for me, that has literally been having these conversations with me as a child. And I've become like parts work is something that's been so,

helpful to me. It's something I recommend to everybody. So for people who are interested, there's a wonderful book called No Bad Parts that I recommend. On my website, there's a bunch of free resources, including an exercise around parts work that people can download and try on themselves. But that practice has been the most groundbreaking for me in terms of self-compassion. We talk a lot about building wealth on this show. And one of the simplest, most powerful ways to do it is by actually earning interest on your money. But here's the thing. Most banks give you next to nothing, a fraction of a percent. Meanwhile, they're making money off your deposits. Thanks to today's sponsor, SOFI, you can flip that. When you open a SOFI checkings and savings account and set up direct deposit,

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In turning to your family and your parents, how do you find peace, internal peace, in loving the people who made you, but who also deeply hurt you? Yeah. I think for me, that was really having compassion for my family history was a really big part of this writing process. And in the book, I explore the way that my parents grew up, what happened to them. And so I started to understand the way that seeps into family systems and into lineages, right? And having a great deal of compassion for both my ancestry, my history, you know, the history of the country, the history of my parents, all of those things. And so what it's allowed me to do is to have an understanding and to have compassion. And that doesn't make certain behaviors right.

you know, I don't condone abuse of any kind, but I have an open heart towards my family, you know, and I have peace with my parents. And I know they did the best they could within the, within the means that they had, within the context that they, that they grew up in. And so that was really, really important to me to understand their whole stories. And my practice then is, how do I both have boundaries for myself and be open-hearted to do both. To do both. things simultaneously. It's really challenging to be able to hold both at the same time. Yeah.

It's really challenging to be able to hold both. And part of that for me has been tuning into my body in terms of like what feels right and what doesn't feel right. And so when I'm around certain behaviors that feel toxic, I feel that now. We talked earlier about kind of disconnecting from emotions. Now my body, I tune into that and I start contracting. And I realize, okay, I don't want to be around these behaviors. And then I have the choice to not be.

Right. And so it's kind of tuning in to what's right for me as I decide what are my boundaries. And at the same time, like practicing that openheartedness, which I think is so important. Because ultimately, that's what gives you inner peace, right? When you're angry and resentful. And by the way, I think those are really important emotions to feel and process. But when you kind of carry on, carry a whole that resentment. you hurt yourself in the process. And I think my greatest freedom has been feeling all of those

things and then being able to let them go. One of the big turning points that you talk about in your book is when you and your younger sister actually sort of confronted your family about this for the first time. And like you kind of said, this was my experience. This is why it wasn't okay. Like actually having that conversation. Do you think that now, that the context has changed for your family or for people's family members. Like what is the level of sort of expectation that you have of them to like develop themselves and grow versus just kind of holding the onus on yourself and being like, you know what? I can control myself.

I can have my boundaries. Yeah. How do you think about those two things? Yes. That's a really great question. I remember one of my mentors, my leadership coach. Diana Chapman, she's the founder of the conscious leadership group, she was the one who said to me, you have to talk to your parents. And I was like, no, that would never have. You know how Asian parents are.

Talking with that. Yeah, right. About like deep emotion. Yeah. Like, that's crazy. I was like, that's never going to happen. And so ability. Yeah. Where? Yeah. So she kept like encouraging me to do this. And then I remember what really kind of pushed me over the edge in terms of having the courage, which was about maybe this was like six years ago, five or six years ago, a friend that I had grown up with. He was a year above me in high school, also Taiwanese-American. And I knew there was violence in their home. He took his life. And it really woke me up to something.

And I started to realize that my silence was complicity. And if I didn't raise this issue with my parents and with the community at large, then I was complicit in what was happening. Right. And again, in these cycles of abuse. And so I decided to talk to my parents. And it was super scary, right? It was like the scariest thing that I've ever done.

And as I did it, the way I prepared for it was to really remind myself. And again, this, this, Diana, my leadership coach said, this is not about changing your parents. It's about taking the hand of that little girl and standing up for her. Right? And so it was more, yeah, which is, yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and so that was, that's, that was the point of that exercise. Like, I didn't go into it thinking my parents are going to change. And I know they are who they are. Yeah. And they've also tried to, like, like hear me and listen, you know, but I didn't walk into that with the expectation that suddenly, you know, everything was going to change overnight. But I did feel that it was really important for me

to establish that relationship with myself, such that I could trust myself. Okay. Right. And so that was the most important thing that came out of that. So your goal for that was more to be listened to and to have that actual dialogue as opposed to necessarily being like having any expectations. of the other person coming out of the conversation. Yeah. And I think everyone's on their own journey, right? And we can only control our part of this. Yeah.

When we expect someone else to behave a certain way and they don't, that creates great disappointment and suffering. And so what I believe is like the best I can do is put my truth out there. And the more I put my truth out there, the more others can stand in their own truth. Yeah. Right? And that's the best I can do.

I think that's something that can be applied not only to relationships with your family and your parents, but also relationships with friends, relationships with, you know, your partner. Yeah. Like that's something, yeah, I think gets sort of debated a lot. Yeah. Expecting someone to change versus putting that, I guess, onus more on yourself or just not putting that onus on on onus on them. Or speaking your truth. My interpretation actually of what Jane said, was less being like listened to or heard and more just speaking and just for yourself and for your

inner child like standing up for yourself and if the other party wants to listen to you whether it's a parent or a partner or whatever like that's kind of on them like they can or cannot but like at least you've said your piece and you've stood up for your inner child like I think that is probably so helpful for um yeah self-reflection like that that in itself is the therapeutic modality yeah yeah that is the saying it out loud to the person whether or not they're actually even listening or absorbing it is kind of your takeaway yeah because they might not have the capacity to absorb or listen and that's not really on you that's right yeah i think that's absolutely right but there's something about speaking our truth out loud right especially

when it's painful there's just some there's some power to that and i think it allows us coming back to to this idea of self-acceptance and self-compassion, you know, again, when we, when we are able to do that, it allows us to accept all these parts of ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, I often think about the balance of obligation and boundaries. I'm still figuring that out. Because I know holidays are coming up and people are going to be around their families. Whether or not you want to, like you might go home and it's often really hard for people to establish boundaries with their families if that's not something they grew up knowing how to do. Yeah. No, I think that's absolutely right. And it's very hard to establish boundaries with family because we want to love our families, you know? And the more we can

say no to certain things, the stronger our yeses also become. And so I think that that's been really healthy for me from a family perspective is like when I have healthy boundaries for myself, then I can engage with my family more wholeheartedly because I don't have kind of that underlying angst or resentment. Yeah. So again, this has been like a new practice for me to tune into. What does that feel like? One of the most useful practices, and again, this is this is something I've learned through

like leadership coaching and so now that I've like transitioned into leadership coaching something I love to teach. And it's this concept of what is. is a whole body yes. Oh, right? So think about something in your life that you really wanted to do. Maybe it's a trip you wanted to go on or a friend you wanted to see, a meal you wanted to eat. What does that feel like in your body, right? When your head, your heart and your gut are all aligned. And for me, that often feels like a straight line of energy, just up and down my body and everything's like, almost like, you know, feels effervescent and I feel energy lifting upwards, right? That's a whole body,

yes. So anything that doesn't feel like that, you have to question, do I really want to do this? That's a high standard. That's a very high standard. That's a very high standard. Yeah. And it doesn't always mean, no, you don't, but it's just pause and question yourself. Yeah. Like why? To what end? To what end? Right. And what is this telling me? So I'll give you an example. I've been on book tour the last six weeks and when my book came out I went to New York for an event like two or three days later and I had an opportunity actually to do three events on that day old me no problem I would have done all three events and just been white yeah right but tuning into my body I was like I felt that contraction it wasn't a full body yes right and so I had to really ask myself do I want to do this or not

right is this going to be healthy for me am I going to going to burn out the very beginning of my book tour. And I ultimately decided, and I was very proud of myself for this, but I ultimately decided to do one event and that was it. And I'm so glad I did that, right? And this is so contrary to like the overachiever part of me, but having that awareness of, okay, that doesn't feel quite right or aligned. So then pausing and asking yourself, do you really want to do this? And then you might decide yes or no, but at least having that moment of pausing, Yes. Right. You have more intention and consideration. And I think that, again, is what leads to a healthier mental state. I think it's kind of funny that like for people who identify as overachievers,

like the achievement is to not overachieveers. Yeah. The achievement is that like instead of doing three, you did one. Like that was your version of outperforming. Yeah. Yeah. But it's totally true. It makes so much Yeah, if you're like default state is to be like, yeah, I can do it. I can do more. Like I can always achieve more. I can always do more. I have to be the best and perform the best and like stretch myself as much as possible. That's not healthy.

No. It's not healthy. And guys, like I have to say at the end of that, you know, 10 year period when we had to shut down embrace, I was in the worst place of my life. Like I had a complete mental and physical breakdown. Menti B. Yes. Yes, yes, totally. MNTV.

It was like, I didn't even know that my mind could be that fragile. Like up to that point, I thought, I'm invincible. I could take on anything, you know? And then that happened. I was like, oh, wow, it took me probably a good year and a half to recover from that. And I realized through that that, like, when we drive that hard, you know, an unhealthy ways, yeah, you can burn bright for a while. And then you totally burn out.

Yes. And then what? You know, and so for me and my career now, like, I know I want to have impact for the rest of my life. I want to have sustainable impact. So how do I take care of myself day to day such that that's possible? Yes. You know, and I don't wish that upon anybody that they get to that such a low place to learn this, right? And so if we can care for ourselves, even in small ways, I think that really leads to our ability to do all the things we want to do over the long run.

It's really clicking for me. There's this saying for high achievers. Like what has gotten you here will not help you get to where you want to be next. And all of this is the context is making so much sense because for the last, I don't know, decade it's like pushing so hard and like holding things with your hands gripped, white knuckled, teeth clenched to get through it to grind and work so hard. But coming out the other side, you, there's a mental thing. or there's a breakdown, but getting to the next level of where we want to be for growth means

letting go. Totally. And there's this beautiful thing I've discovered in surrender, right? Like control is an illusion that we think we can control everything. And we can't like, look what happened during COVID. Right. And so to me, success looks very different today than I did in the past before success was all about external outcomes.

Today, success for me is about living my values. You know, I saw you guys did a post on this recently. I loved it. You know, it's like, am I living with love every day? Am I giving to others? Am I growing? These are all things I can control. Yeah.

Right? So if I give something by all, that's the best I can do. And then I kind of have to let go of the rest. I have so many thoughts. Please. So on the concept of control, I think I saw a TikTok recent. where someone said, like, you know, we want everything to be in our control because we're trying to optimize things, right? We're so used to try to make things as good as they can

possibly be because that's just our, you know, operating mode. But what happens when you do that is you don't leave room for like serenity. Yes. Serendipity. Yes. You don't leave room for like magical things that can happen that it's like you kind of need a little bit of a situation that's out of your control in some ways. Like you can't, you're trying to make it the best situation that's possible, but sometimes you can't imagine the best situation possible. Like it might be something that's outside of your imagination.

Totally. So, like, sometimes you need to have situations where you can let that happen. Totally. And that's exactly what happened with Embrace, just like closing the loop on that was, for 10 years, I was trying to control everything. And we just kept encountering, like, all these setbacks. And then, you know, we had to shut down the company.

And the minute I let go of control, magic started to happen. you know like Tony Robbins came in out of nowhere and saved the company like I would have never expected that in a million years and so now you know my my belief as I said is is giving something you're all and then you surrender the outcome so like in the writing of my book I was getting really overwhelmed leading up to the launch because I had all these overachievers telling me you have to make this a bestseller and you know that means you have to sell this many books and do this and that and I just was feeling really overwhelmed and so friend came to visit me me in Honolulu where I live.

And we had a little ceremony. And I only had one copy of the book at that point. And I threw it in the ocean. This is funny. I love that. And it was so beautiful. Symbolic. Yeah.

I was like, I gave this my soul. And now I give it to the universe. And, you know, I watched as the waves kind of carried it. And I thought, that's what I want. I'm going to trust that the wave will take this message. to where it needs to get copy others. Like I needed that. Yeah, yeah.

And I fished it out. I didn't litter. Like I plucked it out afterwards. My friend and I actually like burned it and buried it under a tree with this whole thing. It was very beautiful. I like that. But it was just like there's something so beautiful about surrender, right? That again, I think helps us with our with our mental well-being.

And coming back to what you said, I think you hit the nail on the head. So Tony Robbins says this. he says success without fulfillment is the ultimate failure. And how many people do we know who outwardly are so successful but are empty on the inside or chasing something? Right. Chasing the fulfillment, but it's not there. I think that's the disconnect or the misalignment.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. They're always comparing themselves to the next person. And as I said, the goal code post keeps moving. So happiness is just like this illusion. It's this thing that you can never attain. And back to the idea that you said of like self compassion of that being like really important.

When you were saying that whole thing, I had this really strong image in my mind where I imagined like us as like a glass ball. And self compassion is like the layers of like plastic coating like bouncy rubber coating that you put on the glass ball. so that like if you you know fall if you fail then you don't you're not shattered doesn't break right like you're just like oh that's okay like I will literally bounce back yeah I can it doesn't matter like the outcome of this one speech doesn't determine who I am yeah because I already am sure of who I am right I know I'm amazing in these ways exactly and whether or not like if it goes badly then that's a fluke or like it went badly for whatever reason. It doesn't matter. I'm not my, my, my, my, my, you know, my ego or my, my conception of myself that is this glass ball doesn't shatter. I love that. It's untangling your achievement with your

identity. Yep. From your identity. Yeah. Yes. We are worth more than the sum of our achievements. Yeah. Right. We are worth more than how many likes we get on social media. And I really worry about this with a younger generation, right? That they, they put a post out there and they don't get that many likes and it, like, destroys their sense of self. Yeah. You know, so I think this, this idea of resilience. I love that rubber ball image, but that's even more important in today's world. Yeah. So, Jane, to wrap up with something more tactical for our audience in your memoir, you write, we cannot heal what we cannot feel. But what about people who've been numb for so long or pushing aside the emotion, sweeping it under the rug, and they don't even know where to start? How?

How do you begin to feel again? Again, taking that time to pause and sit in stillness. And at first, you might not feel very much. I certainly didn't. But the more I sat with myself, the more I'd start to feel little sensations. And that's the thing. Every emotion is correlated to a physical sensation. So can we start tuning into that?

And can we allow ourselves like the grace and be patient enough with ourselves that we do that slowly? That's the first thing I would suggest. The second, which I said earlier, is really about the power of community, right? Healing doesn't happen in isolation. And so the more we can surround ourselves with, whether it's friends, therapists, teachers that can create that sense of safety for us, then the nervous system relaxes enough to start feeling and to access those emotions.

So these are small practices, but there are things that have been, you know, really, really huge in my life. Okay, so last question, Jane, is can you tell us a little bit more about what you're working on today and then also where we can find you online and where people can find like a wave we break? Sure. Yeah. So I stepped down from Embrace in May. We finally reached our goal of saving a million babies as of this year. Oh, no, that's incredible. Yeah. It's like inconceivable. Yeah. So it feels so good. And it feels so good to say that doesn't define. find all of who I am. And I think what I'm most proud of is actually learning how to embrace myself. And so what I'm moving into now is leadership coaching and development and really teaching all of the

things that I've learned in my journey, both with embrace and my healing journey to others, to help them step into their fullest selves, for them to step into alignment, to teach how do you feel your feelings? And so these are all tools that I have gained so much from. and I feel so passionate about doing this with others. And so I'm doing that both like on a corporate level and on an individual level as well. And so for people who are interested in that, my website is janemarie chen.com. I've got lots of resources there for people who want to go down a development or a healing path. And then, yeah, you can reach out to me there for any increase on the leadership coaching as well.

Amazing. I feel like you're a professor or a lecturer. Like if you have like a course on this, I'm like, people would do office hours for sure. This was office hours for us. Yeah. Honestly. I mean, you're a guru. You've like studied under the best.

You've literally studied under the best. I feel so lucky. And I feel like writing the book, I got to bring a little piece of all my teachers into the writing of the book. So for those interested in picking up the book, it's called like a wave we break. It's available at any bookstore and on Amazon. I really hope you guys get some. something out of it, but it's a message that that truly came from the depths of my soul. It's a beautiful book. And there's a lot of learnings in it too. A lot of takeaways.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Yay. Yay.