Tiger Sisters - Life is Short (how to spend it wisely by ex-Snapchat CSO & Wall Street savant Imran Khan)

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Ever wonder how someone goes from getting laid off on Wall Street to becoming Evan Spiegel’s right-hand man at Snapchat? In this riveting chat with the Tiger Sisters, former Chief Strategy Officer Imran Khan reveals the pivotal failures, lightbulb moments, and contrarian beliefs that propelled him from bottom-quartile banking analyst to a Wall Street Wunderkind and Silicon Valley Savant.Tune in to discover: • Why getting fired turned out to be Imran’s lucky break• How “compounding” applies to both finances and friendships• The dangers of dismissing young people—and why listening to the next generation is Imran’s secret weapon• Tips on public speaking, emotional resilience, and forging a world-class networkStick around for Cherie and Jean’s main takeaways from this conversation in another can’t-miss Tiger Sisters episode. Hit play and supercharge your own career reinvention!------------------------------------------------------------------ 🐯👯‍♀️ Tiger Sisters Podcast | Career, Entrepreneurship, and LifeWelcome to Tiger Sisters, your go-to podcast for career mentorship and life guidance! Hosted by Cherie Brooke Luo and Jean Luo, we’re your internet big sisters here to demystify the ups and downs of navigating careers, tech, and entrepreneurship— all while staying healthy, stylish, and joyful along the way.Cherie is an influencer who has broken down the complexities of big tech, finance, and MBA programs for millions of viewers, with over 100M+ views across platforms. Jean is a tech product executive and investor, holding over 50 AI patents, who has built an impressive career in product management and institutional investment at companies like Goldman Sachs and Snapchat.Between the two of us, we’ve survived stints at top investment banks and big tech firms, founded startups, and earned four Ivy League degrees—if we’re counting Stanford! Yet, we still find time to focus on wellness, friendships, fashion, and skincare, always sharing the lessons we've learned along the way.Whether you’re here for career advice, stories about balancing life’s challenges, or just to hear our honest takes on what it means to pursue fun, wealth, and joy in all areas of life, we’ve got you covered.💛 LET'S CONNECT: ~ CHERIE ~🤳🏻 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cherie.brooke 📱 TikTok – https://www.tiktok.com/@cherie.brooke ✍🏻 My Substack – https://cherieluo.substack.com/ 👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/cherie-luo/ ~ JEAN ~🤳🏻 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/jeanluo_/👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanluo 🎵 Music produced by Sammy Signal https://open.spotify.com/artist/2HsyknHuxhT8RoZfn5rqMS🛍️ Items Referenced:🍵Sisters Matcha & SISTERS Merch: www.sistersmatcha.com♠️ Everything else: https://amzn.to/3z0dx5b⏰ Timestamps:00:00:00 Snapchat’s #2 → Chief Investment Officer: Imran Khan00:01:34 Bangladesh beginnings to Wall Street00:03:00 Imran’s best tip to his 35-year-old self ($ and friendships)00:05:05 Banking 101: Getting laid off :(00:09:17 Exactly how he turned his Biggest Failure → Biggest Break00:13:40 Why listening to 20-somethings is his secret weapon00:17:34 Imran’s tips on public speaking made simple00:22:06 Superpower: Real friendships00:23:40 Inside The Khanference & community-building00:28:23 Cherie & Jean’s episode takeaways00:30:15 How to compound00:34:58 Cherie loves it when others admit failure lol 00:36:43 Imran used “Small pond, big fish” to win big00:38:54 Jean’s own “wake up” moment on Wall Street 00:45:30 Reflecting on and appreciating Imran’s respect for every job00:48:31 Jean works hard to be as even-keeled as Imran naturally is00:51:00 Cherie shares tea about Jeff Weiner, former LinkedIn CEO00:53:44 This life belief/principle changed Imran’s life forever00:55:55 Jean received an email she sent to herself in 201300:59:05 Perfectly imperfect public speaking01:00:55 Final Reflections & Sign-Off (leave a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review!!)

What is it like to be the number two executive at Snapchat and Evan Spiegel's bestie? We talk to Snapchat's former chief strategy officer Imran Khan. I'm Sherey. And I'm Gene. And we're the Tiger Sisters. This episode is super special because if you've been listening to all of our other episodes, there's always a portion where we ask people about what are you learning from this conference, which is called conference.

Well, the reason it's called conference is because it's named after Imran Khan. who puts on the conference. So this is the guy who actually gathered all of the people that you see in our interviews in season three and handpicked each of them to come and learn and meet and talk to each other. We are so excited for you to meet Imran in this conversation. He's a CEO, executive, founder, investor, and the conversation is incredible with lots of learnings and takeaways. So the way that season three of Tiger Sisters works is that we have these conversations and

And at the end, Gene and I have our takeaways kind of like a case study at business school. And we'll jump into the interview right after this break. Hey, guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sisters matcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. Go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcast. Thank you for your support.

Hi, I'm Imbron Khan. I'm the founder and CEO of Proem Asset Management. I also host a conference called conference. And before that, I was chief strategy officer at Snapchat. And before that, I spent 15 years in Wall Street as a banker and as an analyst. Great. Okay, so Imran, let's get into some icebreakers. Sure.

Okay, so, Imran, what podcasts are you listening to recently? Harris Devings, 20VC. I also listened to All In all, All In podcast. As a kid, were you a rule breaker or a rule follower? I was a very rule follower. Yeah, in Bangladesh, if you break like school rules, you know, teachers can be very tough on you. They get spanked and I didn't like physical abuse.

So I follow rules. Well, what about like at home? My mom was very tough. So, yes. You know, Bangladesh she kid. If you don't want to get hit by your parents, you got to be a rule follower. So I was always a rule follower.

Okay. And then what about now? I'm a, I know I still follow rules. Hmm. Kind of contrarian. Yeah. Never got a spitting tickets in my whole life. Okay.

No spitting tickets. That should be your fun fact. No spitting tickets. Okay. So, Imran, I'm 35 now. Okay. What advice would you give to your 35-year-old? I think most people don't appreciate the power of compounding. So if you have a dollar and if you

grow it 15% in five years, it double, 10 years, it's quadruple, you know, in 20 years it becomes 16x, you know, so if you start, you know, no matter how much money you have, if you start investing early and you don't have to do anything fancy, put it in a market, you know, don't trying to win lottery, just be conservative, and if you compound it actually become substantial financial safety. So, you know, we focus so much on working hard and doing a lot of things, but doing some smaller things and just like compounding things, over times, you know, it gives you a lot of financial freedom. I mean, I feel like that applies to finances, but I feel like you also apply it to relationships.

100%. you always have to think about all of your relationships are whether they're compounding, you know, and, you know, it's not having a lot of relationships, it's having a few good quality relationship that grows over time. And, you know, and every year you add a few more. And then by the time you get older, you have a lot of strong, you know, roots across all different areas. Yeah. One thing I remember you said to me before is unless I have that person's phone number and we're like on a texting sort of like relationship, then we're not like real, real friends. I truly believe that, you know, if you email is like you have, you're true friends,

you have to have a texting relationship. Because, you know, I get, I don't know, thousands of emails, right? And email is so impersonal. You know, if you can pick up the phone and call somebody and they don't pick up your phone, I don't know if that's a true relationship. Yeah. So Imran's phone number is, just kidding. Okay, so what was your first job and how did that affect kind of like even your work ethic

and how you approach your career and work today? Yeah, my first job was investment, like first full-time job after graduating from college was investment banking analyst. It was in 2000 and I was an analyst in the telecom. investment banking in the middle of telecom boom. So it was crazy. I worked like 90, 100 hours a week for a year and a half and it was exhausting. Had a lot of on-nighters. And I think the biggest thing takeaway from that, obviously after I left banking, you know, 50 hours workweek, 60 hours work week, feel like a piece of cake. And it was such a massive upgrade in your

life. And then the second thing is also it made me more compassionate that working long hours is not the best way to achieve success, being very efficient and focus matters. I think the people work in banking long hours, it's not because they have a lot of work, but it's that incredibly inefficient with their work process. And for some reason, the industry, even today, we recently read in Ball Street Journal that this Bank of America had held problems and things like that. But the issue we need to be careful about is that how can we work more efficiently? Yeah. Although I still feel like you work a ton. I do. I think now my work has changed. It's more like I don't, you know, it's like it's so big and more

thinking and then doing any like work, right? It's not like I'm sitting there writing a long paper. or building models might, you know, so it's kind of hard to separate work versus what's non-work because a lot of the things I do now is really involved thinking and, you know, and trying to figure out how the world is going, how the companies are doing, what's not interesting, what's out of favor, what's not out of favor. So it's a lot more thinking. That's, I think, I find it very interesting because I don't feel, it doesn't feel work because it's intellectually stimulating to me. Yeah. Like I feel like a lot of what you do now is, more like strategic and like you're saying like coming up with thesees and like thinking it through

and that's kind of more just like natural to you like that's something you do for fun yeah I enjoy it yes I like my mind working yeah you know idle mind is the worst what about did you have a job before your first like real job did you have any like jobs when you were young not when I was in Bangladesh but when I came here for college I worked at the school library me too I worked in a grocery store. So, yeah, so those are some of the things I did. Were you, like, stocking the shelves in the grocery store? Yeah, you know, handing out flyers and things like that.

Yeah. Okay. And did that have any impact on your work style today, or you just try to repress those memories? No, I don't. I think those, I learned a lot, you know, and I worked with some wonderful people when I worked at those things. Listen, I think the biggest takeaway is every job is hard, you know. I think people always think that what they are, this is, I see that all the time, that people think that their job is the hardest.

But what people don't appreciate it, that every job is hard, right? Somebody who is serving at the restaurant. Being a waiter or waitress is an incredibly tough job, you know? In many ways, it's probably as tough than being in Wall Street analyst, you know. So what I learned that, you know, or you said, oh, I work in a library, but, you know, if you suddenly, you know, you get all this book piled on and you have to put all. all these books back, you know, that takes a lot of time, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, so, every job is tough, you know, and we need to appreciate, uh, each job. Yeah. I was, I was, I was, I was,

a very good investment banking analyst. I was definitely bottom quartile of my class, you know, for a couple of reasons. Number one, I'm not, I don't have the best attention to details. So that's number one. Number two, my English writing is not that great either. And I hate doing PowerPoint presentation. So, so, so, you know, I think those are the three criteria to be a good investment bank analyst. So I was not very good at it. And because I was not very good at it, you know, in 2001, when the telecom bubble burst, I was laid off. And getting an investment band banking job in 2001 after getting laid off was almost impossible. You know, I didn't go to a fancy school. I went to University of Denver. I was not a very good analyst. I spoke with much, even much,

much thicker accent at that time. So I, you know, couldn't get a job. So I went to a really, really small shop as an equity research analyst to become like, you know, covered stocks because that's the only job I could get in finance. And I desperately needed to have that job to stay in the U.S. because if you are not employed, you lose your visa. But that was a big failure. But that failure was an incredible for me because,

I went to a small shop. I had that strong work ethics. So, you know, from a banking, 100 hours work ethics, I was working 70 hours. And, you know, when you work 30 hours more than your peers, you know, in a year, you accumulate incredible amount of knowledge that makes you very good. The second is I was, you know, because I was working in a smaller firm, I was able to go to my boss saying that, hey, you know, nobody is covering internet stocks. Why don't I cover internet stock, I will do my day job of helping you. But in my free time, I'll write about internet stocks. And that was the bottom of the, you know, market for internet stocks. I picked coverage of Yahoo, Amazon, eBay at the bottom. You know, so when the stocks all that went up,

I looked like a genius. And that really was a massive career breakthrough, right? Because you made client so much money, then, you know, J.P. Morgan and all these big banks were calling me to cover the stocks. And but if I, to be honest with you, if I was really good at my job, I would probably not going to get laid off and I would stay in a mediocre investment bank and be, I don't know where my career would go. Or if I would get a job in a big bank like J.P. Morgan, I would, there is absolutely no way I was able to pick up coverage of internet stocks at the bottom of the market because there are other people who cover it. So, so sometimes, you know, failures are good because it gives you clarity. Yeah, yeah. And like also, I don't know, sometimes I feel like the reason you're not good

at something is because, like, deep down inside, you know it's not what you're, like, meant to do. Yeah, I never thought that way, but, you know, but the funny thing is I went to back to banking later, and I did very well. I just was not a good, Julia. You were VP then, right? Or something. By the time I went back as a head of the group as an engine director. But I was just not a good analyst or associate because all the three things. By the time you become, indeed, that's a more of a relationship's business. And I'm very good at, you know, people like me for some weird reason. All right, Imrond, what is a hot take or like a contrarian belief that you have that you

think is, you know, unique for your industry? So first of all, I don't get over excited about anything and I don't get over pessimistic about anything, you know? I think people get Uber hype about things. people get over depressed about things. And to me is like, you know, when things are people who are hiding, I get nervous that something bad going to happen. And when people get over depressed, you know, I think, you know, like if today is bad,

tomorrow is worse. The day after tomorrow has to be beautiful, right? So, so, so, so, so that's what I think I like. And the second thing is I think I'm very open to learn. I think the biggest thing is a lot of people at certain age, primarily as you get older, you know, you don't want to learn anything. And the other interesting thing, who you learn from is also change.

So when I was in my 20s and 30s, I learned from people who are 40s and 50s. And now I actually learn from people who are in 20s and 30s as opposed to people who are in 60s, you know, because their learning curve actually plateaued and not less as, in many cases, it's not as irrelevant. Yeah. So I think, you know, who you learn from is changes as you get older also. That's so interesting because you think people who are in their like 40s, 50s, 60s, they stop learning.

So then you don't have as much to learn from them versus people who are in their 20s and 30s are still in their kind of voracious learning phase. I think that's one, the learning curves, plateaus. The other thing is the younger people are more willing to take care. than more adventurous, so they experience things, then an older person doesn't experience. So when you add, so think about it, right? So let's say you are like exploring a new world.

And, you know, if you are 50, you only, you don't explore anything new. You only know what happened. But if somebody who is younger, they're willing to take risk and go to new part of the world, new, new part, try out new thing. So they're bringing new experience. That is actually very, very interesting. So I think, you know, and the worst thing you can do is very dismissive of young people. That is the biggest, like, I think I call it career killer.

You know, like don't be dismissive of young people. The second thing is, you know, some people don't listen, like, don't pay attention to what young people are doing. But I think it's really, really important that you surround yourself with young people and you learn from the young people because, they are discovering new things. Yeah, I feel like that served you really well in your career working at SNAP where most of the people that were working there were in their 20s when you joined. That was a great thing. Honestly, that was probably the best thing happened going to SNAP, you know,

that working with the young people, it really opened up my eyes that there's so many things to learn from them. You know, if I stayed at banking, I would probably become one of those persons who would not ever interact. with young people and learn from people. And as a former young person slash, I still identify as young. I feel like it's, you can really tell when someone who's like older is like talking to you from a place of like they actually want to know what you think versus like kind of a place of like

condescension or like I'm just asking you to like ask you. Yeah. And I think young people are courageous also. So yeah. So I think that's a really, really. And I'm trying to, you know, like. And that's why I like meeting younger companies, younger founders, because you can learn. And just in general, talk to people in their 20s and 30s because you can learn a lot from them.

Yeah. And then back to what you said about having kind of like an even continent, like you don't get either like super hyped about anything or super depressed. What did you, have you always been like that or you like learn to force yourself to be that way over time or? I think I was always like that. my dad complained about me once about that, you know, he bought me a gift and they thought I'll be very, very excited, but I was like, okay, you know, and it definitely did heart his feeling because he remembered that 20 years later. So, so, so I felt bad. But I guess that's my personality. Like, I don't get overhyped about anything, so I'm over depressed about anything either.

Right, Imran, you have spoken in public a ton. What is a tip that you have. for public speaking or maybe some like media training that you would like to share. Yeah, I didn't really have a lot of media training. I had some, you know, because, you know, companies forced me to do it. I used to debate, you know, and so I was a big debate I went to high school. And I think the big thing is try to make eye contact with their audience, you know, and trying to understand that what you are saying if the audience is, it's resonating

with the audience. Because sometimes you must think you're doing a great, but you can see that audience is falling asleep or they're engaged. So I really trying to, as I speak, trying to talk to my audience and really trying to understand

what they're talking. And then the second thing would be don't over-rehearsed. And actually, any time I try to rehearse, I do terrible, you know, as you know, that I don't know what questions you're going to ask. I'm sure a lot of people when you interview, they said, oh, what questions do you ask? I don't want to know because then I get over, I step overthinking and the delivery becomes

really, you know, and then you don't really, you know, so I think sometimes taking the risk that, hey, my answer may not be like perfect, but that's okay, because that's a regular conversation. And at the end of the day, you know, having a regular conversation with one-on-one or one-to-thousand-thousand, that's fine. You know, just be who you are. Yeah. That's a really good tip

because I feel like a lot of people have a lot of like tension around like in an interview or in public speaking. They don't want to say the wrong thing and they're like so scared of that happening that it makes them like not natural.

Yeah. No, listen, I think first of all, you should ask yourself, are you saying anything that, you know, what is the wrong thing? Now, if you have some really terrible and abuse about things that the whole

world is going to think you're a despicable person, that's a completely different problem and you need to go solve that problem, right? But in general, if I said something that is, you know, not 100% to the mark, who cares, right? Like, I don't, like, I'm a human being, you know, I'm not going to always going to say everything that is 100% perfect. It's okay to be 90% perfect. It's okay to sometimes flop that, hey, that speech didn't go very well. You know what? That's life.

You know? Yeah. That makes you a human. Okay. I'll try to keep that in mind because I feel like the first piece of advice you gave that was like, oh, read the audience and like try to adjust based on like how the audience is reacting. I'm like, oh, that's kind of a high level piece of advice because that means that you feel comfortable deviating from like your plan that you went in with.

100%. Yeah. Because the reality is. if I'm talking about something that people don't care about, then you need to think about it that why they don't care about it and how can you connect with the audience, right? Because, you know, like, think about it, right?

You go to a dinner, you get sat next to a person that you never met or maybe met once, and they're saying things about that you have absolutely no interest, you know, how miserable you are, right? Yeah. And then, like, then what's the point of, and that person doesn't understand that you don't care about that. topic, right? Like, if I go to a place and somebody talks to me about baseball, I don't

know anything about baseball, you know, and so I'll completely go to zone out, right? So, so either somebody wants to talk to me a baseball that should change topic and talk to me about something else, or if they really want to talk to about baseball, they need to trying to figure out, okay, how to connect with baseball with something that I'm interested in. So, like, for example, I'm interested in cricket, to growing up in Bangladesh, I watch cricket. So maybe you should bring the cricket reference and then, you know, I'll engage. So you can talk about the things that you want to talk about, but you have to find a way that what will get the audience engage so that it's relevant to them. Because the reason they're not

paying attention to you, you're talking about something that's either they don't care or they don't have, they don't find the relevancy. So, you know, and sometimes they don't care, but you want them to care. In that case, you need to bring the relevancy. I like that. Okay, Imran, what would your best friend or really close colleagues say is your superpower? I think people will say probably that my ability to like connect with people. I don't know. That's a good question.

Or people will say my analytical skill, one of those two things. I never really asked them. I would say, yeah, definitely your ability to connect to all different types. of people. I think you can talk to anyone. It's amazing. And then also, like, you love to bring people together. Right. And you want people to, like, come together and have, like, all these different, like, connections and build something amazing together. Yeah, I'm extrovert. And, you know, it's true. I'm not always extrovert, but in general, I like people and I like being with people. if my choice is staying home alone, which I like sometimes, you know,

so it doesn't have to be like, you know, half of the time I like being home alone and thinking. But the choice is, but I like being with people also, you know, and I get a lot of energy from people. So, so, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I thought of two more. I would say one, you are an incredible judge of character. Great. Thank you.

And then the other one, two, is that I think you may. make everyone feel very comfortable. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Last question, which is for the conference, what do you think is most valuable? So what I'm trying to build is a community of interesting people. Not really a conference.

There's a lot of conference. But what conferences are missing, a community feeling of it and a community of interesting people. I think that what social media did, they created a community, all digital community, and people are less and less in-person community. And going back to, I value in-person relationships.

And so people have community, their neighborhood community, they have their religious community, their political community. But I'm like, can we create a community that's interesting people? They're founders, their CEOs, their regulators, their policymakers,

their lawyers, they are running nonprofit organizations, you know, they're, you know, and the younger people, you know, who has a lot of potential, you know, not only CEOs, because again, like then, it's a lot of group thinking going on, right? Mujah, you know, so people in the same, you know, perspective talking about from their perspective point of view.

You're not hearing problems. People who retired, you know. So, so to me is like, you know, most conferences, they're very homogeneous, you know, they attract the same group of people and they talk about the same thing. So I think it's interesting, how can we build a community

of interesting group of people who are doing completely different things, right? And that's, I think, it's a really interesting part, what we're trying to do, and how can you keep it small enough that people can talk and learn from each other.

Yeah. I can't wait for you to see the super cut because we asked every person this question and I think when we put it all together, you're going to love it. You're really so happy. Can't wait. Thanks for doing it.

really appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Where do you hope conference will go from here, looking to the future? So my goal is, you know, do it every year as long as I physically can do it and continue to bring, you know, same group, you know, who are engaged and contributing. Bring a group of people who are going to continue to contribute to the community, you know, you know. I really want people to come, you know, like one of my rule is don't come.

speak and leave at least commute four to six hours at the conference, you know, so that you can build the community, right? People talk about, oh, I went to these conferences and X, Y, Z spoke. So they come in through the back door, they speak and they leave through the back door. What's the point? You know, like, honestly, why do you need to go to a conference for that? Just watch it on YouTube or read it on Twitter, you know? If I, that's why I don't go to any conferences, you know, where I just don't think I can spend one one time with them, right? I don't need somebody give me a lecture, right? Oh, I want to go see Elon Musk. I'm like, why do I need to go watch Elon Musk? I can see what's in his head on a real time. He acts, you know, so I don't need

to go see him, you know. So now, if I have a one-on-one with him, you know, or can hang out within a small group, which I never had, I would totally go, right? Because, and that's interesting to me. So, so, so I think that's what we want to do, is like it created this community thing that people who actually want to be part of this community. You know, one of the biggest thing is, I'm not trying to get the best names. I'm trying to get the interesting people who are interested to be part of it

and really built a community over time, right? We started with 50, then we had 100, this you have 160, and grow. And at some point, we don't want to get too big, but that's the goal. Yeah, that's definitely something I noticed that I was kind of surprised by is that, one, everybody went to the sessions.

Right. Everybody actually sat in and was like listening to the sessions as opposed to like being in and out and like doing work and like having other meetings. So I was like, oh, wow. Like this is very different than every other conference. And then the second thing is that everybody was hanging out with each other like in between all the sessions and then even after for like dinner and then after drinks. And everyone wants to like genuinely get to know each other. And I think it's because of obviously it's because of you because like everyone comes in the conference being like, Everyone here is pretty much a first-degree connection to Imran.

He hand-selected everyone. He curated everyone. So, like, everyone feels very safe and feels like each person is like, oh, I should get to know them because Imran has put us together. Exactly. And creating the safe community environment is important. Yeah. Yeah. Great.

All right. Thanks, guys. I think that's a wrap. Thank you. Great job. Hi-five. Wow. Wow.

What another great episode. So many gems to talk about. I have like a million things in my head. Yes. We'll head to the takeaways, but please remember to like, comment, and subscribe. And please rate us five stars on Apple Podcast or Spotify. It only takes a few seconds and it really means the world to us and makes a big difference. And so we'll head to the takeaways right after this break. Hey, everyone, quick break to share something special, sisters matcha.

We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar, matcha, straight from the family farm Shari worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to SistersMachia.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make matcha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus. And we're back. We're back. Let's start with Imran's background, his upbringing.

Yeah. He like really dove into his background in the first two minutes. And he like not so suddenly mentioned like getting spanked at school and potentially at home too, given that he grew up in a different context. He grew up in Bangladesh. and, you know, different. Well, this was in the context of him saying he was a rule follower. Yes.

Because he was like, yeah, I didn't want to get hit, dude. Like, duh. I mean, which totally makes sense to me. But it's funny because a lot of people who answered say that they're rule breakers, even as a kid, which kind of informs, like, your perception of them as an adult and helps you contextualize all the things that they've done as an adult. But everyone's like, no, I was a rule follower. I was straight up a rule follower.

Yeah. Which is good because there's no real, what that tells me is there's not really any strict pattern matching of like, oh, if you were a kid and you were like a rule breaker, that means you, you know, you'll be successful as an adult. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's good.

Okay. The first thing I thought was really interesting was Imron's advice to us as like 35, like 30 or 20 something year olds about compounding. And I think he initially meant it in the context of finances. Yeah. But and also like, you know, compounding actions that you can take to build up your career. But the way that I immediately thought of it because I know the context of Enron because he's my, my dear friend, he's like a bestie, is that he has done such an amazing job of building up his

network of friends through compounding actions. Because I just, this is a guy who, you know, manages like hundreds of millions of dollars and like ran billion dollar companies and he will text you back within a minute like 90% of the time. He is just so responsive to his friends and he truly cares about them. And it's those like, and he had said he was like, we're not real friends unless we're texting each other. Yeah. So I kind of feel like it doesn't have to be the speed at which you text and I kind of say that

to myself because I'm a slow textor at times or I would say I'm an inconsistent textor. sometimes I'll respond and I'll respond with like 10 texts in a row and then sometimes I don't respond for like a days. But so I'm just saying like it's the little actions that you take whatever they may be that sort of like show your consistency and like care for a person. Yeah. That built up relationships over time. And that's what's led him to be able to to have conference. Yeah. And also like I feel like to build those relationships over time is really important because.

it's just like the little tiny actions that like you can see it like everyone who came to conference which was started by Imran yeah is that like they all want to be there they're all excited to be there and they all want to like meet all of Imron's other friends because and you know colleagues because like if there are anything like Imron they're going to be of that quality as well yeah exactly quality of person I think the idea of compounding is pretty challenging for young people to grasp, like even in your like early 20s because you don't really see the long horizon. Like compounding obviously makes sense when you're in your 40s and 50s when you've been doing it over a long period of time. But like when you are on the younger side, you just like kind of see

the next day. And if you don't see the results immediately, it's really hard to be like, oh, I should be dedicated to this activity or this person. But I think it's something that's really helpful is like thinking about going to the gym. Like if you go to the gym like once, like you're not going to immediately see results after that, but after you do it like consistently over time, like Jean said, for six months, like you see the compounding results. And that applies, you know, to finances, like investing over time, relationships. And also like any other habit you really want to build and like stack over time. Good things take time. And it's pretty impossible for something like really amazing to happen overnight. Like eating 40 fruits and vegetables a week? Yeah, actually.

I hope that I can, I mean, this is a reference to another episode where my goal of 2025 is to eat 40 fruits and vegetables, whole foods every week. And like, it'll take time to feel and see all those effects. Yeah. She's been writing it down on a piece of paper every single week. And so far you've hit 40 every week. For the last like two weeks that I've been doing it. But yeah, it's something, it's good to visualize. Atomic Habits is a really famous book that talks about compounding over time and how like small incremental changes will lead to big monumental impacts in your life. So get that body pump in today.

And read, my book recommendation is Atomic Habits by James Clear. Very good. I'm trying to think if I've read it or I've only just like heard so many synopsies of it. I mean, the synopsies I think will like get you far enough. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically what you just said. Exactly.

Right? like small daily actions compound that's the idea of atomic habits success by like committing to the actions that lead to the person you want to be yes exactly and then he gives like tiny um actionable advice like you should do habits stacking habit stacking like if you have multiple habits put them like one right after another um so that you can like remember them and do them in tandem but then also like um try to do your habits um consistently and don't go go like, I think he says like two days or three days without doing it because then you get off track.

He's like, you can skip a day at the gym, but don't skip more than three because then you'll start like slacking, for example. Like he has like kind of more actionable insights like that. But yeah, compounding. I really liked the point that Amron said about his first role in investment banking. He, number one, admits that he was like bottom quartile, which I love. I love it when people who are really successful. in their business, in their personal professional life, like kind of admit to like the failures that

they have. And he goes on to talk about. But he the best thing is he talks about exactly why. He was like, I was bottom quartile for three reasons. One, I hated making PowerPoints. Two, I was not a good writer. Not detail oriented. And three, I wasn't detail oriented. And like, as I was interviewing, I was like, damn, those are like the three main qualities that you need to be a good investment banking analyst. Yeah. But not what you need to be head of investment banking group, which eventually he became. Which he later came back to then join as like an MD, which is a hilarious, like, full circle moment. But I love that he admitted that he was bottom quartile. And something that was interesting, I have so many thoughts about this, but the first one is that he really put in sweat equity because he was saying he was working crazy hours.

I mean, which is basically like an investment banking role in a very junior level. You're working 90 hours. eventually he was laid off. But then with that mindset and that sort of like with that discipline, he took it to his next role where everyone was working, you know, like 40 hours, like more normal hours. He was working 70, which is more than other people were working, but less than his investment banking job. And he was just getting 30 more hours in every single week.

And he's like, this is way better than my last job. But like that difference made him stand. out and also helped him get to the next level. Yeah, that's what made him crush it. Yes. Because he was doing almost twice as much work as anyone else. Right. And that's why he had time to take on all those text docs.

Yes. That's what eventually became like his reputation. Yeah, his like defining actions in his career, well, early on. Yes. Is that he became known for making all these like amazing calls and recommendations for text docs, which he was only able to do because he basically did it in his like free time. Right. after his like official duties in his rule as an equity analyst.

I mean, it begs the question. I love this because it's like he was in a, what is it? Big pond, small fish, small pond, big fish type of thing. Which is basically, if you've never heard that before, it's just like how do you stand out in the environment that you're in basically? So like in his job as an investment banker, it was a big pond, meaning there are a lot of people, a lot of analysts. and he was a small fish, he couldn't really stand out.

He wasn't doing the best. Actually, he was actually one of the worst at the job. But then now at his like new job after he got laid off, it was a different environment where he could stand out as the big fish because people weren't doing the same things that he was doing. Right. And he explicitly said that this new company he went to where he was an equity analyst was very small as opposed to if he had gone to like a more bald bracket, like big name company like J.P. Morgan. He's like, I never would have had the opportunity to cover these internet names because like someone who was way more qualified than me would have been already covering these names.

Yes. So it is, it is interesting. And it's also funny that the other thing about that story is that he very much attributes his next success to his prior failure. Yes. So he's like, I never would have taken that equity's job if I had been a really good investment banker. Right. That's kind of like going back to if you guys. it harkens back to something that one of the other people we interviewed, Voo, says, where he's like,

there's the path, and then there's waking up. He's very dramatic about it. Wake up. Waking up. I'll like this, the episode to VuTran's interview right here, if you guys want to check it out. Yeah. This was Imran's like sort of wake up moment where he was trying to continue on the path and he couldn't. And I relate to this very strongly because before I moved into consumer. tech and became a product manager. Obviously, my first job was on Wall Street working as an analyst at Goldman Sachs. And I was very much like on the path. And what I wanted to do was ideally move into a role in either private equity or like a hedge fund, basically the by side. It's like what everyone, it's the prescribed path. Yeah. Actually after you do two years of, you know, your analyst's work.

My, my heart wasn't ever in the work is what I'll say. There are a problem. There are parts of it that I really enjoyed and that there were maybe some specific elements at which I excelled at and I worked really, really, really hard to be at the level I was. But I was just never one of those people who was like, oh, I like love the art of the deal. And like I was just never going to be as good as the person who like loved finance and banking as much as some people did. And so I ended up, I never got a role. I didn't get a role in either like a hedge fund or private equity. Did you apply?

Yeah. I looked into it. But it was also very hard because I wasn't in investment banking to start with. Yeah. I was in a, well, I was technically already a buy side rule, but I was doing fund of funds investing. So it's not as typical, but it was like everyone around me was going into PE and hedge funds. It felt like. So it was only because I was having a hard time getting these interviews and getting, you know, job offers on the prescribed path that I was like, well, what are the other options? Like what I actually really enjoyed about this job was doing all the research about consumer tech companies and like looking into these companies, talking to fund managers about them. So what would it take for me to work at one of these companies? Like what could I do it at consumer company? And it was only because I had failed at the prescribed path that I started to.

look at working as a product manager. I mean, and that changed my life. Yeah. I think that takes a lot of confidence, self-confidence and self-reassurance that like if the path is not for you, like thinking that there could be another one. It's like kind of hard if you're like you're imagining the path for your entire life trying to get off of it. Yeah.

Especially when it's been what's served you. Yeah. And like helped you be successful and feel. like safe and comfortable your whole life is to like do the right thing yeah it reminds me graham weaver a lecturer at stanford's graduate school of business he i hope i don't like butcher this but he also talks about a moment in his life where he realized v path was not for him where um i think he graduated business school at that time he also went to stanford he i think he was 29 or 30 and then he just realized and he went to like a like a private equity shop and he realized

that like the person working next to him, like loved what he was, what they were doing. Yeah. And Graham was like, I have never and will never feel that way. Yeah. About this private equity or like, you know, this like the path job that I'm doing right now. And if this person can feel that way about this job, they're going to excel in ways that I can never do. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I also sort of had that realization because the person sitting next to me at work, so we weren't allowed to invest in individual equities because it was a conflict of interest. like personally but the one of the things we were technically allowed to invest in was vol like volatility and the person next to me at work he just in any spare minute of his time where he wasn't working he was just trading vol all day long like this man was like obsessed with buying and selling

vol and he you know what vol volatility like market volatility you can buy and sell yeah yeah and it's like not um it wasn't on the list of oh things you things you couldn't in buy and sell because it's not specifically, it's not specific to anyone company. Sure. So, so interesting. I need to resource this. Well, so this guy, like, he, he was looking for, like, any outlet he could to, like, buy and sell, right? And that was our job. Like, we were, we were, we were fund allocators. We were asset. We were capital allocators. So our job was to buy and sell different names and different stocks. And because he couldn't do it for himself, he, like, had to find some outlet.

He had to buy the volatility. Yeah. So interesting. But so I was like, I would never do that in my free time. Like, in my free time, I was looking at, like, fashion blogs. Mm-hmm. You're, like, exposing myself. I swear I was a good analyst.

No, you were good. You just have different interests, and that's fine. Yeah. And then it also helped you wake up. up. Wake up. Yeah. Wagonboos says wake up. Does everyone have a wake up moment or sorry, do a lot of, do entrepreneurs have a wake up moment? Or maybe does everyone have a wake up moment? Someone wakes up from everything at one point, no. Is that why people have midlife crises? Yes, but I think some people wake up and they feel like it's too late to be able to do anything. Oh, that's sad. But I do think in almost every instance,

you can make a change for yourself. Look at me. I'm on my third act. And I'm... She has so many chapters in her life. Yeah, and I'm only in my 30s. Right. Maybe everyone does have a wake-up moment, but people react differently to it based off of their internal compass and also the context that they're in.

I guess, like, if you're in your 50s and you're waking up and you want to start a startup, but you have, like, young children or young children, like, it's a lot harder to do, technically you know that's what people say because you have other factors and you have a mortgage and all this other stuff yeah so and for me it's almost the opposite because like I anticipate having many more acts like this is not going to be my last act because

I think because I haven't entered that phase of having a family and like having kids yet so that's going to be a whole other act or sub act or whatever we want to say you're like Lady Gaga end scene constantly reinventing

yourself. I really liked when Imron said that every job is hard. Like he I just I just think you can see his humility and also obviously he went through his context in the beginning, talks about like where he's from and the family he kind of grew up in. But yeah, like every job is hard. Like especially he like mentioned a lot of like being a waiter is really hard. You know, working in a library is hard. Just because you're sitting at an investment banking desk doesn't mean your job is the hardest job in the entire world, even though it might feel like that. Even though it might feel like that after your second all-nighter, it's 4 a.m.

And you're sitting in your desk. Every job is hard. Yeah. I thought that showed a lot of like respect for innate respect for humanity. And I just thought it was really beautiful. And I think a lot of people don't even bother to acknowledge that. Yeah. In their heads or out loud.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think that maybe a problem that we have these days in society, this is either a perception or it's true, but there is the perception that people at the top, like people who are extremely successful and very wealthy kind of have a level of disdain for the people who are doing the like invisible job. And I think saying out loud, like every job is hard.

Every job has honor to it. Every job has a level of respect that's due to it is just really powerful. Yeah, it is. Especially as a leader too. If you're leading a company and leading teams of people, hundreds of people, if they can see that you treat people this way and have that belief, it is just, it cascades down. Right. Like I wouldn't go so far as to say it's like speaking truth to power.

but it is like a shade of that. It's like a version of that. Yeah. It's a way that if you're a leading team and organizations, it's like part of the culture that you treat people with respect, everyone with respect, no matter where they are and what they're doing at your company. Yeah.

I wonder if it's unique that he has this view because he did, you know, once work in a grocery store, he did work at the library. My hypothesis is probably yes. I think if like, you know, you need to touch grass in some way. like unfortunately unless you're like super sympathetic empathetic and you have that empathy I think the leaders that I've seen who have that are the ones who've like are experienced hardship um or like the ones who like started from the bottom and now they're here started started started started by the bottom started from the bottom no yeah

am I too accurate this is going to get a copyrighted I'm just too too This is too accurate to not monetize. That's funny. I also thought Imran's answer to the hot takes question was so good and very insightful. Sorry to overuse the word insightful, but it was. What a good interview. So he said two things. One, he was like, I never get overly excited or overly depressed about anything.

And that's just like, I wish I had more of that consonants. Mm-hmm. Because more even keels. Yeah, I think I'm just like the opposite of that. I get like really freaking excited about things. But then conversely, I can also get really sad and upset about things. And I like try to like let it go. I try to like just like move on and not ruminate.

But that's just not my like natural personality I think. Yeah. So I'm like constantly trying to be more like how he naturally is. It sounds like you need to meditate for more emotional regulation. Oh, maybe. I guess I could try that. No, I feel similarly. I feel like you and I are very similar in that way.

Yeah. We're like with the highs are high, the lows are lows. But like I think, I mean, it depends on the situation. But like being more even keeled, I like the story that he shared where his like dad got him a gift and the dad was expecting this large response. And everyone's like, I'm sorry, I have nothing to give. Like, thanks. He's like, I love it. I love it.

But yeah, I think in business leaders, the ones that I like seem to really be successful are the ones who can be more even keeled at the very high level. Okay. But what I think is interesting is, and I have the context of having worked with Imran. I used to work for Imran at Snapchat when he's the chief strategy officer. And it doesn't, the fact that he's like has like a more narrow band of like emotional expression doesn't mean that he was like dull or boring or like. unhappy. Like he was the type of person where like every time he came around to your desk, because he would like walk around the office all the time, he'd be like, ooh, Iran, yay. Like the mood is lifted. Like he's always like cracking jokes and like smiling and stuff. I think it's internal. It's like an internal

even keeledness. Yeah. Yeah. Like 99% of the time, like his expression in the office, like even when things were, things were always stressful. Okay. Like it was always, we were, things were always crazy. Things were always stressful. He was never like, yelling or like unhappy or like pissed off like he was just always like I don't know like kind of happy yeah I mean it's interesting people take notice of that or people take note of that and then people's reactions will be derived from how leaders to present themselves at work at LinkedIn and Jeff Weiner the former CEO who has been there for like I think a decade or something he's no longer the CEO but when he was, when he first started out, he would get really upset in meetings such that it

landed him a reputation of being like a hothead CEO. He would yell. He was like rumored, I was not there. Rumored to have like thrown things. And in that type of CEO that people were just like kind of on edge, something happened. I don't know what happened, but he had his own wake up turning point moment. And he was able to, I don't know whether control it or, you know, change himself. Who knows? But then he, when he left the company over the last several years, he was able to have a very different reputation of being beloved. Beloved. And also just like way more this in meetings.

So I don't know what happened. And again, I wasn't there. This is just the lore of LinkedIn. But it's interesting. People take. She's spreading tea on the podcast. He's spreading the tea. But people take note of like the type of leader you are.

Yeah. How you. Well, just your personality. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like, Imar was the type of. leader where you would, oh, if he, if he said jump, you'd be like, how high? Like, you would do something right away. But also, it was just nice to be around him. Yeah. It was like, you were happy to be around him.

And it also makes me think of other people that I've worked with that were, like, competent, but just, like, total Debbie Downers. And you're just like, ugh. Like, I have to, like, interact with this person again. Like, there's such, like, a wet blanket, but it's just like an energy suck. No names. No names. No names. Yeah. But yeah, it's kind of like the energy you bring. It's interesting because, yeah, we are contrasting like what he says is internal state versus like the way that you experience someone externally. That's a... But what a powerful combination. It's an interesting tool. Internally being like so well regulated, but then externally being this like super like cheerful, fun, like happy dude or do that. It's compartmentalizing. maybe at its highest level. I don't know if it's compartmentalizing, but it's almost like being able to process things

and then not have the, like, you know when you experience something and then your immediate reaction is, holy shit, like, or, oh, I'm stressed, like, you know? Yeah, it's called emotional regulation. As I said, you need to meditate in order to improve that. Okay.

Okay, no, but that was only, okay, that's part one of his hot take. Part two, I think. that was even better. Yeah. Part two was, was that he said, I'm very open to learning. And specifically, I'm open to learning from young people. Yeah.

People in their 20s and 30s. Yes. And he said, I actually wrote down the quote, he said, the worst thing that you can do is to be dismissive of young people. It's a career killer. And I think this is one of those, you know when like you think people have prevailing beliefs? I think this is one of his prevailing beliefs or like primary, like life

principles that changed his life. Because like think about probably how many people Evan Spiegel spoke to about potentially being his chief strategy officer when he was in his 20s and Snapchat was like a, what is this company? Like what's going on, etc. Like the fact that like Imran took that conversation and, you know, built up this relationship with Evan where he thought that he had a lot to learn from Evan and vice versa, not just like a one way relationship.

Yeah. And like I know the two of them are like best friends. Like they openly say like, oh, Imron is my best friend. Imron says like, yeah, Evan is one of my closest friends. Like that. Ooh, he's not his best friend. That's rough. He has a lot of best friends.

That's true. I think that like belief of his changed his life for the better. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting to like reflect on yourself and be like, hmm, I wonder like what my prevailing. principles or like beliefs are and how those shape my life decisions. You can tell that Imran is just such a curious person. Yeah. I'm curious to learn from all types of people and he doesn't care in which form it comes in.

And he just like wants to maximize his learning. I think just like, yeah, it's just such a shame when I think older folks dismiss younger people and younger people feel dismissed by older people. And younger people was like, I don't feel like I have anything to add to this conversation because that's how I feel. But I'm like, young people have so much to add and their perspective is really important. It's just like, do you want to learn from them? Okay. This reminds me.

Hello? This reminds me of a story. Remember I told you I got this email from myself like a couple months ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I used to use, I should probably still do it again. I used to use this website called like futureme.org to like write little notes to myself in the future. So you just like, it's like a really plain you. I just read a note to yourself.

And then you schedule, schedule send for like however many years later. So like a couple months ago, I received this email from myself from 2013, I want to say. And it was like when you become like a manager of teams or like a manager of people, I don't think it was like that elaborate, but it was like, make sure you listen to people who are below you and like consider their ideas.

because I gave this idea to like X, Y, Z of my like managers and they dismissed it. But like it ended up being this like really, you know, fantastic feature idea or whatever. So I had like written myself like a burn book. It was literally your digital burn book. You're like, this girl is the. No, but it was like me writing myself like a note of caution in the future to be like when you become important. and you're like managing people, make sure you listen to them. Don't just like dismiss them.

Yeah. No, I think that's great. So should I use this future me.org again? I think that's the website. Should I write some more messages to myself? Yeah, you should. I like that. A very succinct way to put it is that Amran's just like when you're young, like in your

20s and 30s, you're looking up to people in their 40s, 50, 60s beyond for advice. But when you hit the turning point of when you're like 40 and 50s, and 60, you should be looking to the young people to maximize your learning curve and to, you know, lean into your curiosities because like where can you learn the most? It's so interesting that that flips. And I don't think it naturally flips for everyone, you know. Some people keep looking to the older generations continually when there's diminishing returns. Yeah. Well, that's why like I've said before, I'm obsessed with understanding Gen Z and now Gen Alpha. Like I'm really- really like I'm really trying to like form my own hypothesis and like understanding of like

why gen alpha is the way that they are and like what they're what they're driving like needs and motivations are yeah um because it's obviously going to change the world that we live in over the next 10, 20 30 years so the more you can understand now the more you can try to anticipate what's coming in the future and like how people will act how our society as a whole will act i was going to mew on camera but i won't embarrass myself like that why it won't it won't age well shrie is stroking her uh her jaw line for those who are listening oh yes for those who are listening sorry i was stroking my jaw line i was mewing the last thing i want to touch on quickly is what imran said about public speaking when we asked him for his advice there the main

thing that stuck out to me was when he said, who cares if you're not 100% perfect? Like, if you just get your message out there and like you're 90% good or like whatever percent good, who cares about that 10%? He was like, your human being, everyone listening to you, you know, in the Lord's year of 2025 is also a human being. Aside from the AI. Yeah, aside from the AI. But like everyone is human. Yeah. And like they just want to connect with you. They just want to hear your message.

They're not looking for you to be perfect. Yeah. And they're not going to punish you in their minds for you not being perfect. Yeah. So I mean, I took a public speaking course at Stanford and like the number one. Well, there are many takeaways, but one of the takeaways is that the people who are listening to you are rooting for you. Like they want you to succeed. Like no one is like if you're speaking in an auditorium, no one's going to be like,

I hope this person messes it all up, you know? Yeah. And when you do mess up, they want you to, you know, recover. They want you to too well. So like no one is rooting for your downfall. So do the best you can. And if you get 90% of it right, like people want that as well, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. That's nice. Unless you have your ops in the audience. And they are rooting for your downfall. But everyone needs some ops. Everyone needs some ops. Everyone needs a really good. Thorne nemesis.

Yeah. That's what makes you powerful. Who's your op? Oh, I have many. I'm looking for more. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of the Tiger Sisters. Yeah, I really hope you guys enjoyed it.

And we'd love to hear, like, what was your main takeaway? Yes. Let us know in the comments. Until next time, I'm Gene. And I'm Sheree. And we're the Tiger Sisters. See you. Bye.

Thank you.