Tiger Sisters - Marriage Is a Business Deal: The Truth About Prenups, Power & Self-Worth

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

We sit down with investor and founder of Hot Smart Rich, Maggie Sellers, who’s redefining what power, partnership, and purpose look like. From prenups to power moves, this episode is for people who want it all: clear boundaries, financial fluency, and relationships that scale your life instead of shrinking it.We share: ✅ Why planning your prenup is more important than planning your wedding ✅ The subtle repeatable power move that will maximize your long term success ✅ The importance of choosing a life co-founder – not just a partner ✅ A daily practice that rewires toxic thoughts and self-doubt ✅ Why high-value women must stop competing and start collaborating🐯👯‍♀️ We’re the Tiger Sisters — Your Wall Street & Silicon Valley big sistersDecoding Money • Power • Love✨ New episodes every Monday | Shorts all week ✨🎯 This episode is sponsored by Read AI, a meeting co-pilot that takes notes, analyzes meeting sentiment, and shares smart next steps for you and your team. Try our favorite productivity tool free for 30 days: http://read.ai/tigersisters💌 Want to partner with us? Sponsorships: [e-mail]⏰ Timestamps0:00 Marriage is a business relationship1:08 Private wedding reveal5:20 The prenup process and hard conversations8:04 Why you should spend more time planning your prenup than the wedding11:25 Couples therapy one month into dating13:58 Marriage is your most important financial decision14:52 Power move: remember names and write thank-you notes17:09 Attention as currency — the gift of presence22:37 Ad Break: Read AI24:12 Rumors, Reddit, and knowing your worth28:27 Being a "Purpose Couple"32:08 The most expensive lesson: Ostriching (avoidance)34:43 Journaling to rewire toxic thoughts38:20 “It’s a privilege to be overwhelmed” 39:36 Heartbreak as story fuel — turning pain into power42:42 What truly motivates high-achieving women45:26 The secret of the rich: slow down45:53 If everything disappeared tomorrow… perseverance and purpose48:08 Why sharing failures matters more than flaunting wins49:30 Spotify Mash Ups & collaboration over competition51:17 Wrap up 👀 Newsletter: https://cherieluo.substack.com/Why trust us?▫️ Cherie Brooke Luo – 100M+ views demystifying big tech, finance & MBAs▫️ Jean Luo – ex-Goldman, ex-Snapchat exec, 50+ AI patents, startup investor▫️ Together: 4 Ivy degrees • built billion-dollar products • two startups — decoded for youWhat you’ll get (and keep):▫️ 🚀 Ivy League cheat sheets – no $250K tuition required▫️ Personal finance playbooks – salary jumps, investing, money psychology▫️ Networking scripts – behind $100M+ deals, job offers & VC intros▫️ Real talk with unicorn founders, VCs, and billionaires▫️ Mindset resets – clarity minus the pricey life coach▫️ Lifestyle, wellness, and productivity hacks that actually work💛 LET'S CONNECT:~ CHERIE ~🤳🏻 Instagram – / cherie.brooke📱 TikTok – / cherie.brooke✍🏻 Substack – cherieluo.substack.com👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – / cherie-luo~ JEAN ~🤳🏻 Instagram – / jeanluo_👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – / jeanluo👉 Hit Subscribe & tap the 🔔, then WRITE A REVIEW and rate us ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ on Spotify & Apple Podcasts!Share this with someone who deserves to be seen as a leader.🎵 Music: Sammy Signal – https://open.spotify.com/artist/2HsyknHuxhT8RoZfn5rqMS?si=XcHuYyhdTTSkVxGYSet12g🛍️ Items: 🍵 Sisters Matcha – www.sistersmatcha.com🌀 Everything else – https://amzn.to/3z0dx5b

I didn't marry a fucking loser. Marriage is a business relationship. The most important financial decision that you will make is who you marry. By the way, everyone has a pre-napp. You write it or the government does. As a woman, you need to be having these understandings and these conversations. People will always look in and be like, oh, that's the reason. And or she dated someone super wealthy.

And it's like, I know my fucking worth. Like, I have a really toxic brain is what I've realized. If my friends don't text me back, I think that they're mad at me. If someone doesn't like my photo, I'm like, oh, my. my god, they hate me. Have you ever had the thought where you're like, you're going to see me on a billboard one day? For sure. You're going to fucking regret all the things that you did to me. Yeah. We're like money power and love. All right, let's get into it. Yeah. Yeah. I love money. Okay. So first of all, congrats. Baggy. I was so, wait, the timing is perfect because I was like,

can we talk about it? Can we not talk about? So this is like, I'm so happy that it all worked out. But you just got married this past month. Yeah. Oh my God. I'm so excited. Um, so. Um, can you just tell us what has married life been like so far and how's the wedding like we just want the rundown okay so you know we had decided to keep the wedding private not secret because i always knew i wanted to tell people about it but i think with my history of obviously like calling off an engagement saying no not settling like there was still so much unknown to like the entire process getting to the point of actually saying i do and i think right now so many brides or people feel like it becomes their entire personality. And I have such a life outside of being married that I was like,

I actually don't want that to take over what I'm doing in this moment. And I want to be able to like enjoy this moment for us. And then once it's over, share it and like share every single detail. So to me, it's been this perfect storm to lead up to this point where I'm just like excited to share and make it my personality for like a few weeks. Yeah. And then be able to like go back to what day today looks like and feels like, but between Courtney and I, truly, it feels different. Like, I know that nothing has changed. Like, we live together. We've had a bank account. Like, we had all these things. But something about, like, exchanging vows in front of your family and committing to each other for better or for worse. And, like, just feeling like, wow, like we chose each other,

it does feel a little different. And it feels really nice. Yeah. Do you say my husband now? And it, it doesn't like, it's not weird to say. People are like, it's so weird to start calling him your husband. And I'm like, no, no, no, my husband. Like, it just, it is like the best thing that I've ever been coming out of my mouth. So I'm so happy. Oh, that's so happy for you. I'm so glad we get to like celebrate now. I know because you guys knew. Because people, so this is like kind of how we decided is that people that were in our life on a day to day basis. Because I think a lot of the time when you create content, like I do have these parisocial relationships with a lot of the people that are in the community. but there's not that explaining, right? And you guys were at my house for like two or three hours. You're getting to see the ins and outs of things and be able to give people that context. So our kind of rule was

like, it wasn't a secret ever. It was more just something that we were keeping private. So people that we met in real life, like it wasn't as if we would lie and be like, we're not getting married. But it was more just something that we kept offline for a while. And then once we finally decided to share it, now it feels like a true celebration with that community, which is so exciting and so fun to get to relive it all over again. I also love that because then as like a public figure, you get to pick and choose what you decide to share. And especially like with something like this special and like near to your heart, like you can choose when you get to share it with everyone. For sure. And I think also like for me it was a feeling of joy, but there were there were a lot of fears going through the process. And like,

having people doubt if it was going to happen. I just like I didn't want to take away from the joy. And I think as you start creating content, you realize where those boundaries are going to be. And it's funny because to your point, nothing is off the table with me. Like I will really talk about everything. And so that doesn't mean, though,

that you don't have boundaries. And I think that through this process, I learn what is the right time for things? What is the right boundary that I'm going to have? And so as you build more in public, it's not as if it was like, I'm never going to let people in on this part of my life. It was more so just the time to get there. I wanted to be private because I was also going through things. And I think a lot of the time we forget that with creators, you're failing in public.

You're creating in public for better or for worse. And like sometimes it's really hard to go through that as you're also trying to manage the relationships that you have with your community, right? And so I think- And manage your own feelings. Totally. Like you're not sure how you feel about something yet either. Exactly. Like I think about that all the time is like when is the right time to share things. And sometimes it is while you're going through the process. But for me with this exact thing based on my history, it was like once it was permanent and once we had got to share in the joy and really just like be with each other and then get to like put it out to the public. I love that. It shows a lot of self awareness and like wisdom. And protecting your energy. For sure. And I mean like our process wasn't fully just like, rainbows and butterflies the whole time, like, we were going through a crazy pre-knap process. And, like, that was something that was really hard for me. And, like, being able to go through

it and then be able to share that learning so that, like, more women are empowered and feel independent and feel financially like, okay, I know exactly what I'm walking into is something I was prepared to do, but I wasn't prepared to do that in the moment because I had a hard time with it. Yeah. Is that something like talking about the whole pre-up process that you're planning to share with your community in the future? I think my boundary with it is like, I'm never going to tell people what's in my pre-nap because it's such a specific thing. But I think talking about the process of it is something I'm going to do and want to do. Because especially when you hear the word pre-nap, you think of that gold digger in a movie who's going after someone's

money, especially when you marry someone who's incredibly successful, which I have. And like, shout out to him for like putting his head down and grinding for as many decades as he did to get to that position, which is so admirable. But I think talking about the process, like what it was like picking a lawyer, what it was like, who starts the negotiation, who actually drafts the first one. Those are all things I do want to talk about because I think it is really helpful for women that, by the way, everyone has a pre-nup. You write it or the government does. So like talking about the process is something I really want to do and I plan to do, but people won't get the ins and outs of my pre-nep because our situation is obviously also going to be so different from everybody else's.

But I think just like we all do on our shows, just like having these uncomfortable conversations and talking about it is part of peeling away what we think of a pre-nap and trying to re-implement something where it's really just about empowering women. Yeah. I think even like starting that conversation and like sharing your approach going into it, that's like a thousand times more than the average person has ever heard or like had conversations about with their friends. Well, my number one piece of advice is it takes a lot longer than you'd think. So we, you know, I was kind of the one that was, you know, first pushing it. Like, I think we need to start talking about this. And my now husband was like, it's going to be so easy and simple, blah, blah, blah. And he kind of kept pushing it down the road a little bit more. It was so, we spent more time planning our pre-nup than we did planning our wedding. And that is a fundamental mistake. I think so many women make. They spend so many hours.

planning their wedding and not enough time planning their financial business relationship with the person that they are choosing to be their life co-founder. If you are not having those hard conversations, because by the way, what a pre-nup does is it lays out your role, your responsibilities, who's responsible for child care, what is it going to look like when you take off time for work? Like, as a woman, you need to be having these understandings and these conversations. So if you are finding yourself spending more time planning your wedding than you are planning your pre-nup, you're not actually planning for your marriage.

You're planning for your wedding day. And we did the opposite. That's so good. Yeah. It was intense. But it was like it was a foregone conclusion. Like going into it, you both were like, well, obviously we're going to have a pre-up, right? So then you were just like, let's talk about it sooner rather than later.

For sure. It was something that both of us wanted and knew regardless. Like, you know, and that's the funny thing. Like, of course, my husband was looking to make sure that, like, the decades of time that he had spent building his wealth was protected. But same with me. It's not like I came into this marriage with nothing. Like, I spent the last 10 years investing in women businesses, building a media company, building value in the brand that I'm building, that it's like, you know, we have a 14 year age gap. And so for me, I have 14 years to get to the point where he's at, right? And so it wasn't just about

protecting for him, it was protecting for me too. And I think a lot of the time, women, because we have this preconceived notion of what a pre-nup is, we don't think about it that way. But the biggest lesson that I learned is that the right person will make you feel more secure in your relationship with a pre-nep than less. And so going through that process was truly the biggest sign. This is not just my person I'm getting married to that day. This is my life partner. This person made me feel more safe, more secure, more sure of our life together through the pre-up process than any other thing that we had gone through. I love that because I think from like media or like people talking about pre-ups,

in my mind, my preconceived notion is that it's it's so adversarial. It's like you against me, which is like obviously not a good way to start off like a lifelong commitment. But like hearing you talk about it and feeling like you are more secure. emotionally throughout the process and coming out of it is like so, I guess like admirable. I'm like, wait, this doesn't have to be as scary as I thought it was. I would be lying if I said it was rainbows and butterflies the whole time. There were moments when something was put in front of me or he got something from my lawyers where we were both like, whoa, like that is not what my impression was.

But that's the whole point of the process is that if you don't talk about that and you're on completely different sides, you never find a way to meet in the middle and come to that to feel like so good walking into your marriage. Think about how many problems that's going to cause down the road. Wouldn't you rather do that before you get to that place in life where you do have more things that are tied up with each other? So it wasn't, the whole process was not fun. Like there were days where it was really hard, really scary. And it's funny because there were moments where I actually was like, is this going to work out? Yeah. And talking to him, if you asked him, if he was sitting on.

on that couch right now. He'd be like, there was never a doubt in my mind that we would get to a place where we were both comfortable. But you aren't on the same team for the first time, right? And so you are getting to a place where you are trying to find your way back to that team. But it takes a lot. And that's why I say, like, spend more of your time thinking about that than thinking about your wedding. Did you, did you pair the process with like premarital couples counseling? So something hilarious about our relationship, because we both learned so much from previous failures, we started seeing a couple's therapist a month into dating when we had no problems. Like everything is honeymoon.

Everything is bliss. We're obsessed with each other. We started seeing a couple's therapist for two hours every month. So we would do a two hour block. We would both put an agenda together before we would see the therapist. And we would be like, what's the most important for us to talk about, decide on that agenda, bring it to the therapist. And so no, we didn't do premarital counseling during the pre-nup process. process because we have been working on our relationship as conscious adults since we started dating.

I love that so much. There's so much intentionality that goes into that. And also finding your person who is open and willing and excited to go into that as well. Because it's like it's not easy. Like it's it's like very, it's a mental load. It's like a time commitment. Like that's incredible. I think that's so it's interesting because like right now I'm in a period where I'm actually not actively seeing a therapist. And since the time that I called off my last engagement in 2023 until, let's say, uh, maybe six months ago. So for like a full couple year period, I was seeing a therapist every other week. And it's intense. Like you're bringing up a law from your past and dealing with like why you are the way that you are. And so right now I'm in a

period where I just, I don't want to be heavy. I don't want to be bogged down. And I think that's okay. It's kind of like a publicist for a business. Like you shouldn't have a publicist at all times. have a publicist when you have like news to talk about and you're looking for like creating things. And that's something I learn working for the biggest celebrities in the world. There's like creation time, right? Then there's promotion time. And that's where you're out doing everything. And then you go kind of back under.

You're not posting on social media. You're not doing interviews. You're not doing these things. And you come back out. And so for me, similarly with the therapy and like kind of working on our relationship. Right now we're just in like enjoyment mode. Like we just spent so many months putting down every single fear, every single negotiation that we had planning a wedding. And now we're like, let's enjoy being married

for a bit and just like have fun before we have kids and like other life responsibilities. And I think that's really important is like figuring out when that time is best for you, whether it's like with your work relationship, your co-founder, whatever, putting in the work and then being able to enjoy the fruits of your labor. That's what we're doing right now. Sounds wonderful. I'm so happy. I don't know. I think honestly, like it is so true. I don't think of Courtney as just my husband. He is my life co-founder. And like, I, I hate to say it, but marriage is a business relationship. The most important financial decision that you will make is who you marry. And so if you aren't thinking about that as a business relationship with contracts and

responsibilities and negotiations, as unsexy as it is, it actually sets you up to be able to enjoy it versus like feeling so unclear about what is actually going on and just kind of. of putting your head in the sand. And like, no matter when you do that, that ostriching, is a really bad thing for you financially, personally, professionally. And so why would you do that in your marriage? I love that. I also love how we jumped straight into money. I know right into it. I love. We're like money, power and love. All right. Let's get into it. Yeah. Yeah. Like all in one. Speaking of power, Maggie, what is a subtle power move that you do that you think other women can also do? The smallest thing that you can start doing is remembering people's names.

Making people feel important is the biggest power move that you can start today after you're done listening to this episode. Intentionality, like following up with people. So as an example, we had 16 people to our wedding. I wrote every single vendor and every single person that came a thank you card. Obviously, you can't do that for every single situation. But making people feel special is. such an unlock to getting what you want. So whether you're doing it for the right reasons or not, making people feel special, remembering their name, sending them a thank you note,

those are the things in business and in life that take you completely to the next level and are so overlooked. But like, I judge people. When someone doesn't send me a thank you for X, Y, and Z, I'm like, good to know. Like, genuinely good to know. And so I think those little things that make people feel important, asking them questions. Like, when I am networking or meeting someone for the first time, I am not talking about myself. If you are trying to fill your ego by, like, posturing and trying to make them feel like, oh, you should pay attention to me, you've already lost. The more that you can get people to open up and talk about themselves and make them feel special, like, whether it's then or it's in a day, a year, 10 years, like you are going to get

what you want from that person. I think the other part of that is, And I was saying this to Cherie, like the other day, is that one thing I think a lot of women don't realize, but I think you have really tapped into and realize is that our energy is a gift. Like, giving people your full attention and your like intentionality and listening to them. Like, that's a gift to people. And so like it's almost like don't undervalue yourself when you're giving someone your full attention and like talking to them. and then, I don't know, like making them feel good by being in your presence, too. Totally. Like, giving people your attention, I will actually never forget this and to take it back

to the start of the conversation that we had. But when I was with my former ex-fiance, we were in therapy and we were talking about, like, I don't know, attention. And my therapist was trying to communicate to my ex-fiancee that it's like, if you have kids and they're coming to you and they're like, daddy, daddy, like, I really want to show you something. And they're like, not now, not now. That has such ripple effects on your children.

upbringing and like their value and worth that they have. Whereas like if you, if they come to you and you're really busy and your heads deep in something, but you're seven year old, I just want to show my dad this. And they're like, daddy, daddy, I have to show you something. And you take two seconds and you're like, okay, baby, I have two seconds. Show it to me. And then I really have to get back to work because I have to work to be able to provide stuff. But like, I really want to see what you're talking about. And then you have to know that like daddy's working right now. That 30 second difference will make or break the evolution and development of your child. And I remember thinking with my ex-fiancee, like, he will never be able to give that gift to my children. And with my husband, who is 10 times busier,

10 times more important, it's like he gives that gift to me every single day. Even when he is like, oh my God, like, I just, I can't have you walk into my office right now. I am doing something. He gives me the gift to be like, babe, like I can't right now. I know it's important. Save it for dinner. and just that level of reaction and presence to people, it makes the biggest difference. I think also knowing yourself and like knowing what you need. Because as like sort of as a joke I've been saying to my friends, I'm like, I actually need a lot of attention like from my partner. And like they're like, were you always like this? My friend was like, I don't remember you being like this in college.

I was like, no, I think this is a new realization of mine and I'm just like fully owning it. I'm going to be like, yeah, I need a lot of attention. and but I also give a lot of attention. Yeah. So that's just kind of like the level where I am. Yeah. So like if you're not on the same level as me or we're just not going to be aligned. Totally.

And that's okay. Like you don't have to be a good fit for everyone. Yeah. And the faster you find that no and that's like the, you know it's so funny. And I love that like both of our shows really talk about this because whether you're talking about relationships, that relates to relationships in your personal life and business.

It is the exact same thing. The people that are successful take the same learnings from business and apply. that to their work life, to their love life, to their relationships. It is the same unlock, no matter if you're talking about someone that you work with or someone you're dating. Totally. It's like one of my really good friends that I also like work with and we collaborate with. He like runs a multi like $100 million fund. And like I'll text and be like, hey, like can I get your thoughts on something like today or tomorrow sometime like whenever you're not busy? And he'll literally call me right back. It'll be like, I have nine minutes until the next meeting, but like tell me what you need.

Yeah. And so that's just like the level of like reciprocity. Totally. Like recently I was in business school. And I think the thing I was really surprised by was how much it felt like high school. But we're all grown adults now. And what I mean by that is that like there were cliques there. And it was a little bit odd. Like we're all kind of like all adults. This is business school. Like there's a professional like air to everything. But there were like people who like you didn't feel great around them because they were exclusive or exclusionary. And maybe not, I'm not going to say like on purpose, but like that's just kind of how it happened. But like, sure, you can do that. That's not good for like making friends with more people. But that's also not good for business. Like this is business school. And like we're going to like want to work together or start a fun together, invest together. And I'm like, relationships are built by making other people feel special and included and bringing them in.

And if you do have like the cool exclusionary click, like that's just not a good business practice. No. And you never know when you're going to need a recommendation from someone or if someone's going to be. a boss one day or like, I've seen it backfire on people so badly. Like, you know, it's so cute. I was even when we posted that we were married. Like, I had former assistants of like a lifetime ago job that I had that were like texting me back. Like, oh my God, congratulations. And it, it just made me feel. And although I haven't returned everyone's messages yet because there's just been so many, like getting that was the biggest reminder where it's like the way you treat people matters.

They won't remember like the skills that you teach them necessarily or like what you exactly do with them, but the way that you make them feel, they remember. And so to get a message like five, six years later after they were my assistant to be like, I am so happy for it. It just made me feel like, wow, like people will always remember how you let them treat you, how you treated them. And that is such a skill that I think is such a lost art now. And I think we're so focused on these transactional relationships. And like relationship building is so important in business because it always comes back around. Yeah. So I'll give an example of this. Just yesterday, one of my old coworkers and a friend of mine called me was like, hey, like, I want to do a reference call. And he's the CTO of like a super, like,

of a public company of an app that like everyone has heard of and everyone's using. He's like, yeah, I'm doing a reference call on this person that you used to work with. My board member is about, is hiring, potentially hiring them and interviewing them to be their CTO of their public company. And I was like, wow, you're doing like, you're not even doing a reference check for your own company. You're doing it for your board member for their company. And it's just like, you never know who's doing a reference check on you in the future. Yeah. Like, it's all really connected.

And the world is so small too. So small. Yeah. This episode of Tiger Sisters is brought to you by Read AI. Yes. And it's not just another note taker. It's like an AI co-pilot that can read, transcribe, and summarize your meeting notes. It reads the energy and vibe of your meetings to give you the next smart steps.

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put in your credit card. Sign up through our link because then they'll know that we send you. We're obsessed with Reed AI and we think you're going to love it too. So I wanted to share and also get your take on this since you and I have been in like the influencer world for a couple of years. now, this is about, like, crazy rumors about ourselves. Okay. And I'm going to share and then ask.

Okay. And so, I don't know, like, sometimes I see, first of all, there's Reddit posts about me, which is kind of insane. And they're, like, they're talking about my content. And you would think, like, my content's, like, not, like, it's not controversial. Like, our mission is to, like, help and empower women. And, like, what do people have to say about that? First off, there's Reddit threads.

Second of all, I think the comment that I see the most that, that, you know, really angers me, it really gets me going, is that, like, must be nice to have, like, daddy's money. Like, we see that on our post a lot, which is, like, even more comical because, like, our dad is not in our lives and hasn't been for many, many years. Yeah. And so, like, that is, it could not be further from the truth. Yeah. So, Maggie, wanted to, like, ask, like, what is the craziest, like, rumor that you've heard

about yourself that you've been told or you've, like, seen online? And, like, how did you respond to it? Great question. I mean, there's like so many, I mean, I have like full Reddit threads about me too. I have like five or six, which is amazing. These people have like infinite time. Yeah, well, actually, I just did a podcast with like a Harvard sociologist that was talking about like why our parasycial with parasycial relationships with influencers have gotten so dark. And it's because of these Reddit threads actually. But interestingly, on a post she did yesterday, there was actually a lot of followers of hers that were commenting being like, actually it makes me like influencers more because I know that they can. never win. And then also they were saying, like, it actually helps me find new creators that I like to follow. So like everything in life, there's positives and negatives. I think the craziest rumor that I've heard about myself is just like who I date and for what reason. And I think for me, I'll be honest. Like, I know my fucking worth. Like, I know that I deserve someone who works just as hard as me, who has the same values as me, who cares about having the type of lifestyle that we can both have,

who is driven, ambitious, loving, like internally satisfied with themselves, doesn't look for external affirmations. And so, yeah, like, have I dated people that have done really well? Absolutely. But, like, have I done really well? Absolutely. And so, like, I'm not going to just go lower and dim my light because I have a certain standard of life that, like, I work my ass off every single day to be able to provide for

myself. I didn't marry a fucking loser. I married someone who is actually incredible in every single capacity. And one of those happens to be ambition and happens to be the success that they've had. That is not why we are married. That is two people coming together that know each other's worth and know our own worth and together want to combine ourselves to be in a relationship that makes the world a better place. And so when I see that, I'm like, yeah, I haven't dated fucking losers.

Like, I haven't. And so people will always look in and be like, oh, that's the reason. And or she dated someone super wealthy. And it's like, but like, I also bought my own house at 26 years old. And like, I went public with my first startup and reported to our CEO. And like, I took my first money that I could, I only got an Hermes bag this year. For the last six years, I've been taking the money I could have been doing on fashion and putting it into female founded businesses. Yeah, none of them have a huge exit yet. But like, that is all compounding. in terms of my wealth one day. And so I laugh when I see that because I'm like, yeah, because I have huge ambitions for my life and like I work really hard.

I want someone that wants the same. And so to those people, I would just be like, you need to date higher. Like stop dating losers. Yeah. Stop dating losers. Yeah, I guess if you date a loser, that'll kind of turn you into a loser over time. Totally. And like, you know, it's just so.

interesting for me because if you don't have a genuine connection with people and you do date people for money, that dies, right? Like there's always going to be someone better looking with more money, more followers, more fame, more this, more that, and you're constantly going to be on edge. I feel so safe and secure in my relationship because I know that we are both together for the right reasons. We want to create purpose. We want to create a legacy. We want to make the world a better place and it's through very different things, like him as a serial entrepreneur and investor, philanthropist, and me as someone who's like really helping women realize and know their worth. And so like, whatever way we come together, it doesn't matter because we're here to create

something so much bigger than ourselves. And if that ends up happening to bring in wealth, great. But like, that's not the purpose of why we're together. That's very inspiring. Yeah. The ultimate power couple. Yeah. Yeah.

Purpose couple. So that's actually something. So like when everyone keeps like talking. like talking to us about being a power couple where like we actually want to be a purpose couple. Like I want people to look at my relationship and be like, if she can do it, so can I. If she can leave a bad relationship, so can I. Like we talked about this on my show and like one of the things I still get imposter syndrome about is like I didn't go to an Ivy League school. Like I didn't come from like an investment bank and like I kind of just creatively problem solved my way

to get here. And like I do feel a lot of imposter syndrome one day. And I think we've all done it in our own way, but I think all three of us sitting here, show the average woman, like, you can do it. You can do it in your life, in your business, in love, in relationships, like, just bet on yourself, take risks, say no to settling. And I think with my relationship, I really feel like it helps women. Because I think even for you, Gene, like, someone who's like, I want that. You're like, if she can do it in her 30s, like, so can I. And I'm not going to settle. And that to me is so much more important than like whatever what someone says on Reddit. Yeah.

I totally agree. Hell yeah. Yeah. And like you can start over. Yeah. Many times. Like, and I think that's what's so funny. And it's funny, like, even having celebrities on my show, like, some of them are like,

I don't want to talk about like previous relationships or brand failures. And I'm like, that is why I am so in awe of the women who do it. And that do talk about their previous failures because no. one is successful every single time. Like, no investor has really ever lost money. Like, otherwise, you're not really an investor. You're like a private equity investor or like a stock market investor. But like a true early stage investor, like no one has never lost money. You have to to be successful. It's like your one company out of 10 will return your fund hopefully or like out of 30 companies. But like there's still 29 losers in that bunch, right? And so I think it's just

taking the risks and betting on yourself and being okay with it failing. Like, who knows? HsR could still fail, you know? Like, many things could happen. But I don't think I'll ever have regret about, like, the lives that were changed up until this point. And for me, like, I know I will always reinvent myself. Like, it doesn't matter in what capacity. It's just about reinventing and keeping and learning and just seeing what happens next. Totally. That is such a big theme. Yeah. Yeah. And like in our lives. And by the way, it's like, even the most successful, people, like the goalpost always moves for them too. And they're always reinvesting in themselves. Like, one of the things I love about my husband was like when he went out last year and decided to like play

professional football like on a national stage. Like he could have been laughed on the internet. Like fallen, like hit his head, whatever. And for whatever reason he did it, people will say whatever. But it's like at least he went out and tried. And like you can't shame people for trying. Yeah. And if you are, you are the problem. Yeah. Well, you're the loser. Yeah. You're the loser. You're the looser. On the topic of money, Maggie, what is the most expensive lesson that you've had to learn? The most expensive lesson I've learned in relation to money is ostriching.

Ignoring the problem makes it ten times worse. So, like, there would be a period of time where I just, like, wouldn't want to talk about things because I just didn't want to face it. And that gets expensive, even down to, like, the amount of money that I spent on therapy in previous relationships. Like my therapist is almost $400 an hour. If you're seeing them once a week, that's like a huge amount where you could be driving a Range Rover versus going to therapy every single month. And because I wasn't willing to face problems head on, you ultimately wind up a bill of things of like unraveling. And I can

take that example through in any capacity of my life, but especially on the side of relationships, like if you are ignoring problems, you are setting yourselves up to have a really expensive life in the future. Even down to like there was a period of time where I had just moved from Canada to the U.S. I had dated someone very long term. I owned my house back in Canada, so I was paying my mortgage. I had a temporary place in L.A. that I was living at because I was doing like two weeks in Canada, two weeks in the U.S. And when my partner at the time decided to also move to the state, so I was still having my mortgage in Canada. We lived in a temporary spot together.

We decided to break up finally. I was then paying for a lease of another apartment because I didn't want to leave him high and dry. So I was paying three different places to live at one time because I wasn't willing to face what I was actually having to face. And I look back at that time and I'm like, wow, the amount of money I just spent on like avoiding a problem that could have been solved before he had moved to the U.S.

and we were entangled in this lease here and then I had to move out. Like, it's dealing with those problems head on where, yes, it's hard and yes, it might be just like uncomfortable, but you actually save yourself a lot of money in the future. I love that you tied those two together because I think like ostriching in general is just like a way to go through life that's just like you're just not digging into the problems. And like people might think it's like an emotional thing or like a mental thing or a relationship thing. But the fact that you can like tie it to money and say,

like, yeah, it was expensive because of this reason, I think makes it much clearer for people to be like, oh, this is why I need to not be avoidant. Totally. Yeah. And so how does you change that? Was it through therapy? Or like, how are you not ostriching anymore? I journal every single day. Like, I have a really toxic brain is what I've realized. I actually think really negative thoughts. You're hard on yourself. Yeah. And like, I constantly think people are mad at me. So I call these like HSR toxic traits. Like, if my friends don't text me, back, I think that they're mad at me. If someone doesn't like my photo, I'm like, oh my God, they hate me. Like, I have really toxic thoughts. And so to not ostrich and to deal with

things, I actually have to write love notes to myself to be like, okay, this is actually something that, like, is not true. You are telling yourself this. And I think when you're especially ignoring things or making things up in your head, being really intentional and sitting down with yourself every day to talk yourself out of that is truly how I've gotten out of these, like, ostriching patterns that I've had or just like kind of avoiding the problem. So for me, yes, therapy is great, but it's like, it's like going to the gym. If you have a trainer once a week and you think you're going to lose weight, but you eat whatever you want and you don't walk and you don't work out, like you're not going to lose weight. So like what is the practice that you have for

yourself every single day that is your meditation or your mindfulness exercise? And for some people, it is meditation. That doesn't work for me. Journaling away the toxic thoughts that I have or the things I don't want to deal with is actually the best way to like get it out and be like, I actually have to deal with this. It's like rewiring your brain. Yeah. As a creator, one of the things that my whole team is like, what the fuck is your deal? Like, this is your professional job.

You have 200 photos that are posted on your Instagram and you are a professional creator. And I will tell you, like, every single time I am about to press post on a story on an Instagram, I go, but people don't like me. So why would they want to see this? No. And so the journal, like, I. I do that, but I was like, I need to start sharing this because it's a way for, one, me to tell people

what's going on in my life. And two, it's a way for me to, like, take control of the narrative back in whatever way that is for you. But for me, it was like, I need to control the narrative. I need to put out all of the things that I'm putting into my journal every single day for me to feel confident to do this because it's my professional job. People rely on me. I have a team. We're employing people. Like, if I don't have the confidence to post this, like, that is an expensive money lesson to learn. you know. So what is that tactic going to be that is going to help me get over that? And for me, it's like posting that every single day. Because literally what goes through my brain before I post anything is like, but people don't like me. So why would they, why would they want to see this? Well, we love it.

Okay. So keep I love it. Post it for us. Yeah. Maybe I'll try it too. Yeah. It's really helpful. I just did this a few days ago where I went into my closet. And I've saved all the journals since I moved to L.A. So it's like seven years ago. And I remember I found the journal of like when I had first called off my engagement and I was like so sad and just like so alone and reading those entries, you actually have an appreciation for how far you've come. And I think like if we really sit down and think to ourselves, like we live our dream life every single day. What we once dreamt of, we do that yet the goalpost always keeps moving. Yeah. Like if you told me five years ago, a job would be coming to film a podcast with you guys who I now consider friends. And

and like I love to see on social. I'm like, there's no way that would be my dream in 10, 20 years. Yeah. But you forget how far you've come. So if you have those reminders of like something written where you can go back and be like, even if I want to do something 10 times more than this, like appreciating what you actually have is I think the biggest gift, those reframes of like I'm, I was so overwhelmed planning this wedding, doing my pre-up, being away, planning this media business, doing podcast. Yeah. But like for me to write down every single day, it is a privilege to be overwhelmed is the biggest reframe of like, I'm so busy. I'm so stressed. It's like, that is a privilege. If you have nothing going on, that is sad. You're making me like emotional because I

just like resonate with everything that you're saying so much. Because like that's something we say to ourselves. Like, oh my God, I can't believe this is our lives. Like thinking, we're like, what did we do this week? Like we did ABC, D, D, F things. Like these are things that, I mean, especially me since I, she's been, been an influencer and creator for, you know, many years now. But I was like, I never thought that I'd be getting to do these, to do these things. And I'm like living my dream life or like even more than my dream life because I didn't even dare to dream these things. Yeah. But then you're right, like contrasting it with those periods of time when you were so deeply sad. It's like, I don't know, it's valuable to, to draw that contrast. It's interesting because I was just thinking about this.

So I've been posting about my wedding and like wedding. like make people go viral. Mine has not. But the most viral video that I've posted is I posted myself crying on my couch when I had just called off my engagement and it was like, aren't you sad that you're 30 alone single? You just put all your stuff in storage and you have no idea what you're doing. And then the flashbox is like now or the flash forward is like two and a half years later like married the love of my life, new life, new house, new whatever. And I was thinking to myself, wow, without that heartbreak and without that detour and without that. And without that struggle, you have no story. The most powerful thing in business today is storytelling.

Like, AI is coming. Things are changing. If you know how to tell stories, that is the most powerful skill set I think that you could have. If you've never been through things, you've never had a hardship, you've never had to put things on the line or lose things. What is your story? What is inspirational about that? So even if you're in that period or season of your life right now where things feel so hard and so lonely and so sad, it's like, but that is part of your story that is going to help take you viral one day or help you get that job or help you do like find that person. It's funny. My husband when we first started dating and I would start telling him like my deepest, darkest secrets and he'd be like, that's it. That's it.

Like I was like, wait, are you like expecting something like insane? And it's funny because I think like he's so much more life experience than me. And he's been with people that have been through so much that for him, he's like, okay, cool, like, you've called off an engagement. Like, you know, like, woe is me, you know? And I think in that moment, it was like my world was ending. But when you get that perspective of like, wait, like, I've been through things and that's a good thing, you totally reframe the stage of that life that you're in. So if you're like listening to this and you're in that stage of like, I really want this and I really want that and I don't have it, like, think about how that's adding up to have the climax of your story one day. That's how I always think about

my life. Yeah. And then also for me, I've sort of like reframed some of that where after you're through that period and you're looking back at it, you're like, you know what? It didn't end the way that I thought it would. But I'm in a much better place than I ever thought I would be back then. Like I'm in a whole new story that I never would have been able to like access this new like dimension or like universe had I not gone through that. And like maybe that was the right thing to happen for those X number of years. You know? Totally.

I'm like so funny about just looking back at my life because I do really think everything has a purpose. But when you're in that period, it's so much easier said than done, which is why I take it back to journaling, where it's like if you can actually just write out how you're feeling and be able to like really sit with that, that is the fuel that you need. Like I'm more motivated by proving people wrong and succeeding than I am by things like money. And so it's just interesting to be able to like think about everyone that was like, wishing for my downfall at that moment and being like, I'm just like wondering what the reason is what I'm like posting this, you know? Okay, we are so the same. Yeah. I'm the same way. I'm just like, I love proving people wrong. Yeah. I mean, I bet have you ever had that where you're

like, you're going to see me on a billboard one day? For sure. You're going to fucking regret all the things that you did to me. Yeah. But you know what our next phase of growth is? Tell me. Doing things for the internal gratification of it versus other people. And I think it's so interesting to get really clear. I actually heard this on Scott Galloway's podcast the other night, which was like he is very open about the fact that he's extremely motivated by money and extremely motivated by the affirmations of other people. I think it's good for me to recognize, like,

I am so motivated by affirmations of other people and like other people's gratification of me that sometimes it's around like our next evolution is just being able to be gratified because it's enough for me. And that is not a place I'm at right now where it's like I still feel that sense of like, do other people think it's so good or whatever? Like that I'm on a billboard. I think the next phase of growth and true wealth is like being able to just do things because you want to and you're happy with it no matter the outcome.

I haven't cracked that code, but that is something publicly I really want to try to work on. Yeah. I'm not there yet either. But I also am of the mindset where I'm like, we're going to get there eventually. we will get to that sort of more evolved state. It's just going to take time and it's fine for us to like be in the state that we're in now to get to that future state. Totally. But that's just the journey of life, right? Like no one comes out of the womb in the evolved state. Yeah. Like the journey of life is like going through. That's like the juice of life. Yeah. It's figuring it out and we're

not there yet. And like we like the challenge and we like going through all these things and coming out the other side. And by the way, I don't think that there's ever going to be a time where we're not motivated by something. Like, I had Lucy Guo on my podcast. She was the young guy self-made female billionaire. And it was really interesting to hear her evolution of like what motivates her, right? Because at a certain point, it was definitely proving her parents wrong. She has tiger parents. Then it was definitely money where she was like, I really wanted like the affirmations of people and like I would wear something and I would be treated differently. And now it's kind of back to just like solving really hard, complex problems. But it's interesting because I don't think that like

anybody sitting in the chairs of people we've interviewed is like not motivated by something. Yeah. And so it is about that evolution of life, right? Where it's like you just have to be really clear. And I think that is like the biggest, the real jump for me when like life started unlocking and things started feeling easier, like not easy, but easier. Like relationships, work, business. It was like really being clear of what was causing me to do things. Why am I wanting to do it this way? And like that intentionality, that understanding of like what was motivating me, what makes me happy, what is my role in responsibility, what is this. Those are the unlocks to get you to that next place.

And I think for me, we live in such a fast-paced world. It is really the secret of the rich to slow down and be so fucking clear on what you are doing, what you are solving for, and what is motivating you to get to the next phase. So Maggie, our last question is if everything disappeared tomorrow, kind of as you said, like what would happen? Like the brand, the fund and the following, like what part of you would still be standing? Perseverance, like keeping on going. And I think what I would do is like my first thing is I would talk about it and like be open about it. And that's one of the things I've learned about the beauty of social media. Like you really do never

know who's watching. Even if it doesn't come around until six months a year later, being able to like start again, all you have is your story. And so being able to share that is the first place I would go. But just like continuing to put one foot in front of the other, I think that word compounding is so important because like whether it's with your money or your experience or your time or your relationships, like if you compound that, you're infinitely going to be light years ahead of the people who just like keep making the same mistakes over and over again and like aren't learning. So I think it's like that perseverance and just like share. the story and seeing who that resonates with. Like if HSR fails, being like, it failed. And

like, these are the reasons and this is the things that I've learned. And truthfully, like, I don't think there's any embarrassment in failing. I think the embarrassment comes when you don't learn from the failure and you make the same mistake again. I just had a company do exactly that where it's like fire sale to like keep the brand alive. And the founder had done that with a previous business. And like we all bet on that being like, you know, learnt from failure, do it differently this time. Same pattern, same outcome. And so I think for me in life, it's around really identifying like what were the wins, what were the losses and like being able to choose a different trajectory. So I think perseverance and then sharing and doing things

differently to be like, okay, why didn't that work? And how can I make sure that does work the next time. Yeah. I think it's going back to your example before of like the Instagram of your like wedding of like the juxtaposition of like where you were when you were 30 and where you are now. It's I think the sharing part is so important because not enough people and not enough women are doing that. And that's why I love HSR and Tiger Sisters because like we can we, I mean, people see the high highs now, right? It's like what we're posting on Instagram, the successes of our podcast. But then like when we share the low lows, I think that's also where people resonate because no one else is talking about it. Totally. I feel like that's why I do those love

notes every day because for me it's like there are a lot of low things as you're building and you don't want necessarily like the attention from it. So like what I don't want to do is constantly be like posting photos or videos crying, right? Of like in the shit of it. But I do feel like there is real purpose and sharing like the lows as much as the highs. And so for me it's like in those HSR love notes. It's a way to be like things are really harder like I'm going into a colonoscopy on Monday and like I'm going to get, I'm going to do great with it. Like, almost like reframing that brain, but also showing people that it's like, yeah, like things aren't going amazing all the time, although you can hold so many different

emotions at the same time. The double thumbs up. You're doing great. I'm doing great honey on Monday. Like, I'm like, gonna die. Yeah, I am such like a mom like that. But I'm going to post this in my next, uh, HSR love notes. But yeah, I think it's just like that, that reframe is so important.

Yeah. And so before we wrap up, we want to give a shout out to. the ultimate Trace Gaynor and the Spotify team. Love him. And so one of our like, I guess, stories is that we were brought together through Spotify's mashup program and we have the same amazing partner manager who connected us. Yeah. And by the way, just to shout out Trace for knowing that we'd be such a good fits,

but also like for us, for actually collaborating. And I think it's really important for us to share that like we do have similar shows in a similar type of way. but we come at it with such different things and we're both so supportive of each other and I think it's so interesting to see how many women would think about that as like a competition versus a collaborator

and you guys say this all the time like why are there only a few female voices on the top charts and like why can't we all be women on the top charts but it's because we have that mindset so I just think like shout out to Trace for knowing we be good fits with each other but then also shout out to us for being like

this is only going to help us both win if we collaborate and help each other and do these things versus looking at each other as competition. Yeah. Go us. Go us. Go us. See your biggest cheerleader.

The higher the pony, the closer to God. Gene was saying something similar yesterday is that like when we're just like going through our friends' Instagram stories who are like doing something similar or like, you know, like women in the AI space who are influencing or like women like teaching or like HSR. Like we love seeing our friends succeed. Yeah. Like we love cheering you on. Same.

Same. And I'm just like whenever I see it. I'm so, like, proud of you and, like, happy for you. And, like, I just really want you to be, like, so, so, so successful. And by the way, like, as people will resonate with each other's stories, like, the girls that are listening to me that did go to an Ivy League school that do have a business degree, like, they can see themselves and you, even though they like my, like my content as well, and vice versa, the girls that listen to you that are like, I didn't go to an Ivy

league school. I don't have this career background. Like, I relate to Maggie, but, like, I like watching your content. And so seeing these different personas and different. and different levels of experience to get to like a similar place, I think is really empowering for people that are like, I can't relate, but I love the content. And like, thank you for showing these different sides of the coin

because not everyone has the same experience. Yeah. So important. Yeah. Before we go, Maggie, where can everybody find you? You guys, should I say HSR first or Maggie Sellers? I feel like a true entrepreneur says their business first. You can find me at Hot Smart Rich.

My personal is Maggie Sellers. TBD if it switches to Maggie Sellers Rame. Oh, Maggie Sellers for now. I am legally changing my last name, but I'm actually changing my middle name to Sellers. Oh, cool. So it'll be Maggie Sellers. Oh, great. So I'm not sure on the handles yet, but for now, Maggie Sellers.

And then Hot Smart Rich, listen to the podcast. It comes out every single Wednesday and our newsletter drops on Sunday. And, yeah, obsessed. Yay. Awesome. Cool. Perfect. Yay.

Yay. Great. Go us. Go us.