Tiger Sisters - The Dark Side of the Ivy League: Pressure, Prestige, and the Price of Success

Starting point is 00:00:00 Everyone thinks the Ivy League is a golden ticket, but here's the dirty truth. It can be toxic. Privilege on display, pressure so intense that students are crying in the library bathroom, me, and a price tag that is so big that it can crush both you and your family in student debt. Yeah, because we've been inside the Ivy machine, and the truth is way darker than those glossy brochures will ever reveal. So today, we're pulling back the curtain on the Ivy League. what it costs, what it really teaches, and how to really survive. So stick around, because by the end of this episode, you will find out how elitism shapes the Ivy League,

Starting point is 00:00:36 why so many people feel like they're drowning while they're in the Ivy League, and how to chart your own path when it feels like you're being forced into a very narrow funnel. I'm Cherie. I'm Gene. And we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley Big Sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast on Spotify. where we talk about money, power, and love.

Starting point is 00:01:06 Today, we're breaking down the dark side of the Ivy League. Okay, but first let's define very quickly what the Ivy League is. So the Ivy League is a set of eight higher education institutions that are all based on the East Coast and actually started out as a sports league where all these schools would play sports against each other. But now it's sort of a shorthand for eight of the most elite and prestigious universities

Starting point is 00:01:28 that you can go to in the United States. And these colleges are Harvard? Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, UPenn, Columbia, and Cornell. And Brown. Did we miss one? We didn't say brown. Oh, yeah. There's so much mystique around the Ivy League because it's super prestigious. It's hard to get in. The acceptance rates are so low. I mean, it looks all beautiful and shiny on the outside. But yeah, there really is a dark side to the Ivy League. And a lot of it is around the intense pressure that you have as a student that can really lead to pretty negative. mental health. And also, it puts you on a very narrow career plan before you even have the opportunity to sort of think for yourself. And also, these schools are very expensive. Chuching. So we're not here to knock the Ivy League. I mean, we kind of are, but we just want to give you an inside look. But between the two of us, we have gone to four Ivy League institutions,

Starting point is 00:02:24 sort of, maybe three and a half because Stanford doesn't count, but. Because it's on the West Coast. Because it's on the West Coast, it's not part of this original eight schools. But for all intents and purposes, there is a lot of elitism that we can both speak to. And that elitism doesn't end at the admissions office when you get in. It follows you into the classroom. The moment you step foot on an Ivy League campus, you will notice that a lot of it is saturated with wealth. It's what people are wearing. It's the things they're talking about.

Starting point is 00:02:52 It's also where their parents have worked and where they want to get internships. And if you don't come from that world, it can feel really foreign. or really alien. And these are the people who you spend a lot of time with. They're your roommates, your classmates, the people you're just having lunch and dinner with. Yeah. And I think it's a very intangible thing, but it's something that the more time you spend in that environment, you start to pick it up in a lot of different ways. So like one, a lot of people you'll notice, they just sort of move through the world in a different way. You'll notice that they kind of just like assume everything will work out for them. And they just assume that everyone is kind of like

Starting point is 00:03:27 doing things for their benefit and that people have their best interest at heart. I think that's one thing. And then I think the other thing is just the sort of casual references that you hear. So people will be like, oh, yeah, like spring break in Europe or my parents who are the CEO of this XYZ public company or like, you know, they're on the board of this. Like, it's just like really casual references that you start to realize you're like, oh, this is, we're at a different level. Or this is the normal for them. Yes. This is the norm. And I think a lot of of it is like the assumption that's like, yeah, of course I'll get an internship at Google because my uncle works there. Like my uncle is the SVP of ABCDFG and like my godmother is the like head of the

Starting point is 00:04:08 board. Like there's just a lot of like that sort of language that you start to pick up and you're like, oh, that is what life is like for a lot of people. So I think in a lot of ways it can feel very alienating if you've never been a part of that world or you've never really been privy to those conversations, but I will say to kind of take the devil's advocate tact that the benefit of it is even being a part of those conversations in the first place, right? It's having access to that level of access and having that sort of seem normal to you is actually in many ways a benefit of being in the Ivy League. Yeah. So long as you don't let it debilitate you, you know, I think once you're exposed to that, I think there's a lot of like ways it can get into

Starting point is 00:04:54 your head. You're like, oh, I don't come from this world. There might be some resentment or some embarrassment too of like where you do come from because there is such a gap. So as long as you don't let it overtake you and control you, there is a lot of benefit because like a lot of the corporate world works in these ways that you're first exposed to if you go to one of these institutions. Yeah. I think that's a really interesting point because I think the way to be successful in that world is to realize and like acknowledge to yourself that there are certain aspects of this that once I understand the way that the system works, like I can be a part of that system in in a way to better my life. It can be really exhausting because while you're a student for

Starting point is 00:05:39 the very first time, you're also learning about like the culture of the campus and how things operate. So honestly, you're on two learning tracks that are going super fast at the same time. And like, you always have this feeling that you are behind, especially in your first two years, because while you're studying for your classes and, like, looking for internships, the people that are in your classes, like, they already have potentially like internships lined up or they're not worried about it in the same way because they have family or connections at Goldman Sachs, at Morgan Stanley, at Google. So, like, the worries that you have are not the same worries that they have.

Starting point is 00:06:18 Yeah, and I think that one thing that's very specific to that, Ivy League is that you sort of kill yourself all of high school in your entire life to get this a major achievement of getting into the Ivy League. And then once you're actually there, it's revealed to you that there's this whole other strata of this like almost this whole other game to play with all these other levels of like, okay, it's not just good enough that you're in the Ivy League, even within the Ivy League in your institution. There's like all these other achievements and all these other like sort of like mini institutions that you should be a part of. Yeah, different levels within the Ivy League that signify different things. It's like the Greek life that you're in.

Starting point is 00:06:58 And also like a lot of these institutions have secret societies. So some that like you can't even get in at all unless, you know, your parents are a certain type of CEO or, you know, a certain type of like government official. The way that you get in is you're usually tap. So a lot of these roles are passed down within specific other institutions. So a lot of times at Dartmouth, the way that you were tapped for a secret society is that you were the president of another club on campus. They would traditionally be tapped or expect to be tapped for the secret society rules. So there's like this whole other like game within a game.

Starting point is 00:07:39 Sub game, game within a game. If you didn't have, you know, parents or older siblings who went to that school, you just wouldn't be aware of any of this until it's like already happening to all the people around you. Yeah, you just can't even get into Columbia's secret society unless your parents are rich. Oh. There's no merit there. Like your parents had to be someone for you to get tapped. Like they had to be like the UN delegate for like Thailand or something.

Starting point is 00:08:06 Yeah. I guess Dartmouth was a little bit more meritocratic in some ways for the secret societies. But also I think another thing that people don't realize is that there are a lot of benefits to being in these organizations. So even within sororities and fraternities, I don't know if this is like kosher to share, but one thing I know is that in a lot of the fraternities, and this was like, you know, 15, 20 years ago, so things are changed now maybe. Things are not as analog. But they would have entire filing cases of all of the tests that were ever given out and taken in the econ department, in bio, in like premed, in like all of the hardest majors.

Starting point is 00:08:46 And so, like, anyone who's in the fraternity would have access to all the answers. And so... Illegal. That is illegal. Yeah. I mean, that's not cool. But, I mean, it's not allowed. It's not allowed, but it happened, right?

Starting point is 00:09:00 Sure. And, like, it's something that I think people were, a lot of people were aware of, but, like, it wasn't cracked down on in any way. Yeah. And it's only something that you would know if you were either in the fraternity or you were, like, super close to a brother in the fraternity. A pledge brother. But see, that's just another like really small example.

Starting point is 00:09:23 Of one way these institutes, like the game within the game, like that would definitely help you get ahead. Of course. I mean, it's cheating, but it would help you. Let's call it what it is. Yeah. But it would help you get ahead in that time. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:35 And it also, honestly, it kind of gives these brothers this additional advantage where they can be like, oh, like, do you need help on this? Like, do you need help studying for this final? I actually can help you because ABCDFG reason, like they have access to the actual questions. Right. So like it's not just, it gives them like a level of sort of like cachet and it gives them a level of access that you can only get

Starting point is 00:09:59 when it's like sort of like literally passed down and gathered over time. It's like, what do they call it tribal knowledge? But it's like fraternity knowledge. But then the other thing is it's not just that the benefits can be felt on campus where like maybe, you know, you're getting a better GPA. because you have access to all the answers. But also a lot of times these, the same concept of like

Starting point is 00:10:21 certain roles being reserved for people in certain clubs and like being passed down over time. It also applies to companies. So like there are a lot of companies where within specific groups at a big company, it was like very well known that they would then hire. They would hire from the exact same fraternity. They would just pick one or two or three people. in the next class as the interns. And like, as long as you don't fuck it up as you're as an intern, you pretty much get the role. So like. Pledge brothers.

Starting point is 00:10:54 So there's just like all these like ingrained, um, benefits. Benefits. And like, instead of like climbing up the mountain, like with your like heavy backpack of all of your supplies that you're carrying, which might be like, you know, the jobs that you have to do on campus. I had eight jobs when I was at Dartmouth, like eight different jobs where I was earning money. because that was my situation. But like instead of like climbing up the mountain with all that, you're like almost like

Starting point is 00:11:20 a, yeah, you're taking like a, what is that tram called? A gondola? Yeah, there's another. Oh, you're taking a funicular all the way up. Okay. I'm happy I remember that word. Yeah. And like one thing to note about like Greek life and like the game within the game, it's easier to

Starting point is 00:11:38 get into a certain fraternity or sorority if you had an older sibling who was well liked in that fraternity or sorority. sorority as well. Yeah, or if your parents were part of it and like you have that sort of like legacy. So it's actually really funny because people are like, oh, legacy for going into the Ivy League. That's like level one. That's level zero. It's like once you're in, there's also legacy for like all the different institutions within the institution. The clubs, the Greek life, the secret societies. The final clubs. Yeah. I know we're talking about examples on campus and, you know, clubs and Greek life, etc. But there are real world outcomes after you graduate from the benefits of being in the Ivy League.

Starting point is 00:12:19 Like Jean said, they can help you get your internship, your fraternity brothers, your sorority sisters, just people you know. It can be passed down. You can get internships. You can get jobs. You can get referrals. And as you get more senior in your career too, like people who are hiring want to hire people that they know and they like and they trust. And it goes all back to the people that you've spent time with, especially at school. You can just imagine. like if you're deciding, if you're an MD at Morgan Stanley and you're deciding between two different people who are exactly equally talented and one of them knows all of your same fraternity songs, like you're just more likely to naturally be drawn to the person that is most similar to you. Yeah. And that's not to say that, you know, people at those levels won't hire someone that like don't, they don't have anything in common with. And it is like more based on merit. However, the first place they will look when they hire is with from like referrals and people they know from these schools.

Starting point is 00:13:20 Yeah. I mean, it's just the truth of the matter. It's like being put at the top of the stack. The stack is going to be like a thousand resumes deep. Right. If the first five people, you find someone that you're like, this person is great. You're not going to go through the whole stack and read all 1,000 resumes just for like brevity and efficiency. Okay.

Starting point is 00:13:39 So if the elitism at the Ivy League can make you feel. feel out of place, the pressure can make you feel like you're drowning. The next thing we're going to talk about is pressure and mental health. So being in the Ivy League can feel like being dropped into an ocean of endless expectations and then being expected to swim right away. And it's not just the workload, which is a lot, but it's also the constant competition. Classes with really tough curves, internships that everyone is fighting for, and professors who don't have enough time for their students because there's so many students in their classes,

Starting point is 00:14:12 And they're also focused on their own academic research. So do you have an example of this? Yeah. When I was studying computer science, it was one of the toughest times. Obviously, the coursework was really hard. But I think beyond that, there were a lot of sharp elbows. I don't know if it was Columbia, the engineering department, or New York City, whatever it was. I had a really tough time finding people who were kind.

Starting point is 00:14:38 And like we wanted to work together because there was a lot of competition. like I would ask them for help. I was, you know, my freshman year in my intro classes. I thought like, hey, we can all like, you know, especially if we're in a group project together, we should help each other. But there was a lot of like a lot of students, one, who had studied computer science previously. So they, I felt like really behind as like an intro class student. And two, like just an unwillingness to help out another student.

Starting point is 00:15:05 I've definitely heard of that. So I personally didn't really experience that at Dartmouth. I think Dartmouth was a little bit. different within the Ivy League and that like we were so remote and like small that it was not as competitive as pretty much all the other Ivy Leagues. But I have talked to a lot of friends who for example, not to call out UPenn, but like- Call them out. Roast them. But like I have heard that the program at UPenn, especially the Wharton was like super, super competitive. And Wharton is the business program. Yeah, Wharton the business program. And people would feel under so much pressure that

Starting point is 00:15:41 they would do these things that they would tell me that I thought were insane. So like, one, if you ask somebody for notes, like you missed a class or something, they would just be like, no, I'm not sharing my notes with you, which like, oh, I've heard of that before. That's crazy. That doesn't surprise me at all. So I never experienced that at Dartmouth. So like hearing that, I was like, what? Like, why would you not share notes with someone? Like, we're all in this together, which maybe is just like unique experience of mine. But they would take it even further. So like, I remember hearing that for a lot of classes, like they would have the textbooks that were for the class in the library.

Starting point is 00:16:16 And some students were so competitive that they would go into the library and like rip out the pages of the textbook that were the most important so that other students couldn't access them. I was like, what the F? Like that is like demonic behavior. It's insane. That's insane. But I'm also not surprised to hear that.

Starting point is 00:16:36 But also like, I guess. In a way, it's indicative of like to even think of doing that. Sabotage. Saboteur. Saboteur. But like to even think of doing something like that, you kind of have to be like pushed to the limit. You have to be so desperate.

Starting point is 00:16:52 You have to be so desperate. And that's actually really sad. Yeah. That like they felt like in order to survive themselves. To succeed. To succeed. To not drown, basically. That they had to withhold resources from everyone else that they felt like they were

Starting point is 00:17:08 competing with. That's really sad. That is like talking about the dark side of the Ivy League, that is so dark to be in that space mentally. It's dark for that person and just cruel for everyone else. Yeah. And then imagine if you're the person that like needs to go to the library and use the book, you're like, what am I going to do? Yeah. I don't know. It's like lose lose. But that's sad. Like you feel like shit. You feel so bad about yourself if you can't make it through those weeder classes that are intended to be super freaking hard. Yeah. And you sort of mentioned this, but I think like one thing that a lot of Ivy League schools sort of tout and like, you know, speaking of the glossy brochures that they talk about is like, oh, there's so many advisors and there's all these like professors who will work with you one on one, which in some ways is true. But also, to be honest, you can't just depend on the system to work for you.

Starting point is 00:17:59 No, you definitely should not. Even in my experience where I was at probably like one of the smallest like supportive Ivy leagues, my experience was that freshman year, everyone gets. assigned a professor who's an advisor for you, right? And they're supposed to help you make your choices, make the right choices for the classes to take. And my professor who was assigned to me was a first-time professor. She had never been a professor at Dartmouth before. So she wasn't familiar with any of the curriculum. And she was also a professor in the ceramics department. So that was just like so far off field from anything I was looking to do. Because you were studying econ. I was studying econ. So I found this one class that was, and anyone who went to Dartmouth will know this.

Starting point is 00:18:38 this one class called Econ 26, which technically had no requirements, like no prerex for you to take, except for the ones that I already received in high school. And so I was like, hey, should I take this class called like financial instrumentation and like financial markets? Like it looks like I meet all the requirements. And she was like, yeah, sounds great. Like go for it. And then like the first week into the class, I realize I'm the only freshman in the entire class. And anyone who I mentioned to is like, why are you taking this class?

Starting point is 00:19:08 This class is not for freshmen. This is literally the hardest class in the Econ department. And it's also notorious because it's the only class that has cold calls. So the professor used to put everyone's name on this evil wheel of fortune, where for like every question that he asked in class, he would like spin the digital evil wheel of fortune. And if it landed on your name, you had to answer the question in front of the whole class, which is like terrifying because this was a very, very, very.

Starting point is 00:19:38 very difficult class. It was an advanced class. You were 17. You were younger than everyone else in the class. I didn't know anyone in the class either because I was a freshman. But also it kind of goes to show that my mistake was that I just didn't know any upper classmen. If I had asked a single upper class who was in the econ department like, hey, should I take this class? They would have been like, no, like freak. Don't take that class. Take econ 003 or something. Yeah. But I didn't know anyone. Yeah, and it was also your first quarter there. Had you had some time to like meet people or talk to people, find like a peer mentor, or even a second opinion.

Starting point is 00:20:16 It sounds like that advisor really screwed you over, not on purpose, but just because of her or his lack of knowledge. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so for me, freshman year was really hard. And I know for you, it wasn't that easy either. Yeah, a lot of it was acclimating to the environment at Barnard and Columbia and trying to take cues from all the other students there. which might not have been a good idea because I feel like a lot of people are very neurotic and intense. And all of this is represented in one of the famous, infamous, 24-hour libraries at Columbia that everyone studies at.

Starting point is 00:20:51 It's called Butler Library. Talk to Annie Columbia or Barnard student. They will be familiar with this. I mean, it's historic. It's beautiful, but it's open for 24 hours. And what would happen is that you would go into the library and you would basically stay in the library for, an extended period of time, you would go out for lunch, come back and study, go out to dinner, come back and study. And the fact that it was 24 hours is on the surface, it might be like, what's the big deal? But people would literally stay in there until 5 a.m. And it's pretty toxic. And maybe the dark side of this is that like there was like a subtle flex of people studying until the wee hours of the morning. Like I'm there until like 4 a.m. writing my paper and like chugging a red bull and like having coffees like staying up that was seen as a right of passage it was seen as

Starting point is 00:21:41 something that people looked up to especially in the first two years I think as you are an upper classman you learn to have more balance in your life and care less about what other people are doing I think I was very much caught up in that in my first two years too like doing all-nighters in a very unhealthy and unbalanced way it's like the nerd olympics or something oh my god it was in high school all the cool people were like the athletes. Yeah. And then for the first time in my life, when I went to Columbia and Barnard, all the cool people were like the smart people.

Starting point is 00:22:14 It was just like a different, you know, environment. Yeah. You're like, wait, I'm sporty. What about me? So, yeah, it was very much like a competitive, toxic culture of being like who can stay up the latest to study. Who has like, you know, the 12 page paper versus. of the 20-page paper. And as you mature and you're like, you know, in your senior year, you're like,

Starting point is 00:22:41 I mean, I was, I was like, there's something wrong if you're at the library until 5 a.m. You are not planning out your schedule or your time management well enough. But it took me a while to get there. It took me to be in like the rush of everything to finally have that realization. Okay. So let's pause here. Because I think whether you're at an Ivy League or at your first job, it's very common to have that moment where you feel like you're drowning. So the real question is, how do you float when you feel like the waves are too strong? First of all, stop thrashing. Don't focus on a million things at once.

Starting point is 00:23:17 Just pick one to focus on that you can actually improve. Pick one that you can control today and let that be your anchor. Second, take a moment to breathe. Rest is not a wasted time. It's actually essential to your survival. So whether that's taking 20 minutes for a little nap or taking 20 minutes to take a walk outside, that can reset your nervous system and help you move past that immediate moment of feeling so stressed out and like you can't do anything.

Starting point is 00:23:45 Third, grab onto someone. The best flotation device is community. You can talk to a friend, a peer, or a mentor who feels the same way. When you realize you're not alone, the storm feels smaller. And so one way that I was able to do this is that when I was able to do this, is that when I was was figuring out the computer science curriculum. I joined women in computer science. It was a group on campus of women who were in my CS classes. We found each other. We could meet upper classmen who had gone through the classes, use them as our peer mentors. They held a lot of events where we could just

Starting point is 00:24:21 hang out and get to know each other and bond over the toughness of the curriculum. And, you know, where are we getting internships? And I found that to be my safe haven. among the sharp elbows within the class. And finally, remember to zoom out. Whatever obstacle you're facing in that exact moment is just one moment of time for you. And remember, you're building an entire life, not just passing a single test. And that's the paradox of the Ivy League pressure. It can either crush you or it can teach you how to swim.

Starting point is 00:24:54 But these lessons apply anywhere. When you feel like you're sinking, float first and then swim later. So speaking of swimming, We will take a quick break before we dive in further. Hey everyone, quick break to share something special, Sisters Macha. We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar, Macha, straight from the family farm Shri worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention.

Starting point is 00:25:18 Head to SistersMacha.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make Macha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus. And now we're going to talk about the academic experience and career funnel. So one of the biggest surprises of getting into an Ivy League school is the classes themselves. You think you're buying access to the world's best teachers, but really a lot of these professors are focused and rewarded for their own academic research, and they don't give as much time or energy to the undergrad students. Yeah, I think this is another really good example of like the glossy brochure versus the reality of being in the Ivy League. The paradox.

Starting point is 00:25:55 Yeah, the paradox, because the way that these institutions are structured is that all of these professors who are, you know, in the course of their own careers and trying to make tenure, the way that they do that is by publishing and by having really successful research. And that's also like the way that Ivy Leagues often market themselves. They say like, oh, these are the best professors that you could work with because they are leaders and on the cutting edge of their areas of research. Of their field. But the reality is, is if they're on the cutting edge, they don't have time to teach like

Starting point is 00:26:28 small freshman classes. You're not actually getting access to these professors who are on the cutting edge because they are busy on the cutting edge doing their research. They're writing their papers. Oftentimes they have like their own labs, their own teams of like other students underneath them who are contributing to their research and they're mostly focused on that. And so like if you're a freshman and you're in one of these like giant classes that's taught by a professor that's trying to publish papers, you just don't get their attention. and their focus is not on the teaching. And oftentimes some of these professors are brilliant, no doubt, but they're not necessarily the best teachers.

Starting point is 00:27:07 You know, like they can't really teach or communicate the complexities of their research to 17 and 18-year-olds who are learning. Too brilliant. Sometimes they have bad bedside manner. Some of these like, you know, assistant professors who are trying to publish papers, they're not good teachers. They don't know how to teach the material. Sometimes it's too advanced and they can't translate it.

Starting point is 00:27:30 Yeah, that's true. There actually is a very stark difference between being a brilliant researcher who's publishing things at the cutting edge of your field versus being a really excellent educator. Absolutely. I feel like you also see this at tech companies too. Just to take this back into the real world for like 30 seconds, when there's like the brilliant machine learning like PhD engineer on your team who's like 10,000 leagues. above you in terms of their intelligence and you're like, what is going on? I have no idea what

Starting point is 00:28:01 you're saying. You need to be able to translate your brilliance into common folk language. Yeah. I mean, it's actually not useful if you can't communicate what you're trying to build. Yeah. Then it's not going to get built. Okay, guys, I also have a confession. In my first two years of studying computer science, I got a C in one of my classes. And it was a really- Wait, grades go below B. Yes, C for computer science. You know, that thing you never studied. C for Cherie.

Starting point is 00:28:34 Well, this class was really difficult, and it was taught by like an associate or an assistant professor who was actually focused on research. And while this person was likely very brilliant, I didn't feel like they were able to communicate those results. So is their fault? I don't, I mean, yes, kind of. I don't know. I tried really hard. It was a hard semester for me, but I also went to that professor's office hours. And this person was not kind or patient at all. And I felt so dumb when I was in the office hours. And I just left feeling even more crushed, which is probably like a reinforcing cycle. And the dark side of the Ivy League when I tried to get help. Put that in juxtaposition in my more like senior level classes where I got to know the professors and they're tenured. You know, I was thinking like my computer science theory class. I took my junior year.

Starting point is 00:29:22 hard, hard class. But I went to the office hours and the professor was super kind and explaining him out. I don't remember his name. Oh, sorry. He was super kind and I just remember his face. I'm bad with names. I remember his face. But he was also like this older guy. He was like probably like 65. With a kind face. He's kind face, kind demeanor. And yeah, he was just, he cared more about the students I could feel. And I was never made to feel stupid. Yeah, he wanted you to actually learn computer theory. Yeah, computer science theory. Yeah. So what can you tell us about computer science theory these days?

Starting point is 00:29:57 Quick. You know, nodes and, you know, connect the nodes. Got them. I'm just kidding. I can't even, oh my God, Econ, I'm like, which way? What are the two? I got nothing. Also, a really difficult thing about the Ivy League is that there's a lot of pressure

Starting point is 00:30:22 to follow the crowd. Like speaking of like this water, wave, ocean analogies that we've been using is that like it moves in a wave. So like when a lot of people are all focused on getting, you know, the top investment banking jobs, the top roles at, you know, an MBB consulting firm, there's like a lot of pressure to like follow the waves

Starting point is 00:30:43 of where everyone else is looking. And in that way, it's kind of like a funnel, like where you study a certain thing and you go to a certain firm or company right after you graduate because everyone else is doing that. And if you try to do something off the beaten path or a little bit more creative, you're looked down upon. And there's like definitely a hierarchy or like a ranking of like the hardest things to study and people prioritize like those majors because it's more prestigious. And a lot of that is in order to succeed on what

Starting point is 00:31:15 seems to be like a very prescribed path. Yeah. And then also I think the school, the way that the institutions are set up are also also sort of funnel you in that specific direction. Like for example, at Dartmouth, a lot of the most prestigious jobs, like they all came on campus to interview us. So it was like in a lot of ways it was extremely difficult, but it was also the path of least resistance because if you were, because like all we quote unquote had to do as students is just like drop our resumes for these roles for like Bain, McKinsey, Goldman, like Morgan Stanley, like all of these bulge bracket banks or essentially the equivalent consulting firms, like they all literally came on campus.

Starting point is 00:32:01 That's also the leg up you have going to one of these schools, is that you have access to those firms who come directly to you. And it just reinforces the idea that there are certain roles at certain companies that are the best. And so then people even more so just want to do them, even when it's not what they're, inherently interested in. Going to these Ivy Leagues can be very, it's like stifling in a way, because everyone is sort of aiming for the same goal, you can kind of get brainwashed in a way, especially when you're, you know, like a pretty young person and you're not aware of other

Starting point is 00:32:38 ways that you can exist in the world. You can kind of get brainwashed into being like, oh, I can only be successful if I do this path. Yeah. Or success is very narrowly defined. The sort of flip side of that or like the additional dark side is that when you don't get those roles, it can honestly like speaking from personal experience, it can feel like the end of the world. Like you can feel like the biggest failure ever. We're like why did I even, what was the point of me even going to the school? Right. Like why did I even spend four, three, four years like busting my ass doing all these really hard classes and, you know, trying to get. the best grades trying to do all these internships, doing all these jobs. And like, I didn't even get an internship at Goldman. Well, also when you're a young person and you don't have that much life experience, the things that define you are what you're doing at school. Yeah. And I think young people also have a tendency to catastrophize more often just because you don't have that longer term perspective of things. And you don't usually have that ingrained ability to be,

Starting point is 00:33:50 like, okay, is this going to matter in five years? Is this going to matter in 10 years? Or even if you do ask those questions, the answer is like, yes. You're like, I didn't get this Goldman internship. Like the rest of my life is ruined. Yeah. Yeah, like my life is over. Which is a really dangerous mindset. It's, it's really scary. And I think that can be a really dark part of the Ivy League where the pressure leads to really bad outcomes. Yeah. I think another reason why a lot of students are shocked at the Ivy League. And another really dark part of the Ivy League is that a lot of of students go in assuming that the system is built to help them, when in reality, a lot of times people find out that the system is not built for their benefit at all. And like, this actually

Starting point is 00:34:32 reminds me of one of the experiences that you went through with your ex-boyfriend when he was attending Harvard. Yeah. So a story that I can share is that my high school boyfriend went to Harvard and he actually went for football. And he was super excited because he was super talented and, you know, won so many awards in high school for his football career. He continued that at Harvard, but at one point, he ended up needing to leave the team or wanting to lead the team very soon after he had went to school. And he was specifically recruited for football. He was specifically recruited for football.

Starting point is 00:35:10 And after he, you know, had an injury and, like, wanted to leave the team, he talked to one of the coaches. and he was led to believe, misled, to believe that he could not actually leave the team. Otherwise, he would have to leave Harvard. Yeah. Which is insane. Which is wild. And I remember talking to him at one point because he was really considering, he was just like,

Starting point is 00:35:33 maybe I'll just go to our local community college, which is, you know, the delta between our local community college and Harvard is just like, he already got to Harvard. He was playing football there. And he's just like, I think I just need to leave this school because I won't be able to attend. I'll just go to our local community college. And I was like, what is going on? Yeah. And so Gene was able to help out her ex-boyfriend. Yeah. Well, so she had the, so she had happened to mention it to me at the time. And, like, I was, you know, in the workforce, workforce by then. And I was like, what? Like, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard. And I was like, no, this is not, this is not, this is absurd because I know tons of people

Starting point is 00:36:11 who quit their sports teams that they were recruited onto in the Ivy League. And like, nothing happened to them. So I was like, I'm pretty sure that this coach is trying to take advantage of the fact that your boyfriend, like, doesn't know the way of the world or like doesn't know what his options are. So I was like, let's have him talk to my ex-boyfriend at the time, or my boyfriend at the time, was on the soccer team at Dartmouth and he had quit. So I was like, why don't you just have him talk to this guy? And like, he can get a little bit more information there. And so then finally, after they had that conversation, he realized that he did not have to leave Harvard due to quitting the football team and he was able to stay at the school and push back on this coach. But the reason

Starting point is 00:36:55 we tell this story is because I think a lot of times you assume going into an institution, especially the Ivy League, that the adults that are put in place in these roles of leadership and stewardship are looking out for your best interest. And like this is a very clear example where it was not the case. And this adult had goals and they had incentives of their own to maintain a certain ratio of people who stayed on the football team or to maintain a certain roster or like you said, you're, you know, this guy was really talented. He just wanted him on the team.

Starting point is 00:37:28 And so he was willing to let this person throw away their entire educational career in a way to get what the coach wanted. Yeah. Which is like sick to me. It's so messed up. So messed up. Especially because my boyfriend at the time, like, we were outsiders to the Ivy League. His parents didn't go to the Ivy League or didn't really know how to navigate the institution.

Starting point is 00:37:52 They're not inside her. So like, no one really could help him in that case. Yeah. He didn't have enough information. And it was his first semester at school. So like similar to you, like, who do you go to for help at that time? Yeah. And thankfully, like, Gene had graduated Dartmouth and had someone who was in a similar situation.

Starting point is 00:38:12 who could at least provide a little bit more guidance or shine a light on like, what do you actually do? Yeah, yeah. But like if we had a parent or like a friend or someone who could, you know, advocate in that situation, it would be different. But okay, this also goes to show like why it's so important for us to do this podcast. Right? Like we are saying things.

Starting point is 00:38:31 Sometimes like I'm like, oh, the things we're saying are obvious, but they're really not. Like you need to have someone who's been there and done certain things. Even like the tiniest insights, you don't realize like can change. people's lives. Like, so this guy, your high school boyfriend, like, who knows what would have happened if you hadn't mentioned this story to me? And I was like, no, he needs to talk to, you know, what's his face? My ex-boyfriend. Because, like, who else would have he have consulted? No one. Like, literally, we don't, no one. Yeah. But, like, there's so many instances of this that I'm sure I live through myself, that, like, I didn't even know that I didn't have the insight. I

Starting point is 00:39:11 didn't know who'd ask. Yeah. And like we kind of just like bumbled our way through life. And that's why like, you know, our original like tagline was like, oh, making tiger sisters, like making the mistakes so you don't have to. So anyway, that's why I feel very passionately about what we do. And I really do believe we're like changing people's lives out there. Yeah, because if you're listening to this and you have no idea how these institutions

Starting point is 00:39:31 work, like this can at least like pull back the curtain and share a little bit more about like, you know, some of the inside workings. Yeah. And like know what questions to ask. Yeah. And what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. And not all the adults, especially when you're 17 or 18, or not all, they're not all on your side.

Starting point is 00:39:50 Yeah. That's a hard lesson to learn. Yeah. What did you think of that when you like realized all that when you were, you were still in high school? I was just shocked because I was like, you're going to give up Harvard. Yeah. Like that was just unthinkable to me because I was working so hard in high school to

Starting point is 00:40:06 like get into that school. I couldn't even dream of going to Harvard actually. when I was in high school, I don't think I had the grades for it. But then she turned Harvard down. And then I turned Harvard down about a decade later, which is the worst thing they've ever done is admit me because I won't ever give that up. I definitely would not have gotten into Harvard if I applied in undergrad. So there's that.

Starting point is 00:40:27 But I was just shocked, you know, that he was willing to like throw it all away. But I mean, like, what did you think when you found out after he had that conversation with my ex that like this coach who was like the adult? was misrepresenting the situation and lying to him. I felt like we didn't know better, you know? Like, we just didn't know. We just didn't have that information. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:48 I just felt like, how could we have known? You know, I was still at that point in my life. Yeah. I was just like, how could we have known? Do people know this stuff? Yeah, you weren't like mad. You weren't like WTF is this adult doing to like ruin this 70 year old, 18 year old child's life potentially?

Starting point is 00:41:04 Well, he was older than me. So I was just like, I felt like he knew what he was doing. my boyfriend, you know, with leaving school and all that stuff. So I think another story that comes to mind on the flip side of this of like not knowing is that just another anecdote is that I know someone who went to school with me who was actually accused of academic dishonesty. I don't know if I know this story. No, I don't think I ever told it to you, but they're accused of academic dishonesty.

Starting point is 00:41:31 I don't know if it was like cheating on a test or cheating on homework where like they had similar answers. Their mom is a lawyer and their mom flew over from, you know. The West Coast. The West Coast, the Rockies, and represented my friend. It wasn't a trial, but they had to go in. It was like an internal school. Yeah, an internal school.

Starting point is 00:41:54 They were brought. Student Adjudicated. I don't know if it was student adjudicated or if it was like professor adjudicated or Dean adjudicated. It doesn't matter. It was adjudicated. It was adjudicated. But my friend's mom, who's like a corporate, fancy corporate lawyer, came to represent this person.

Starting point is 00:42:13 Yes. In like a school academic dishonesty case, which was then, you know, thrown out or overturned or whatever. Like they didn't have... Due to her voir dire. Due to her amazing opening and closing statement of her mom. I don't know. I wasn't privy to like how it actually went, but like they didn't have to face any consequences that were, you know, enormous or they weren't kicked out or anything. They didn't fail the class. There were effectively no consequences. There were effectively no

Starting point is 00:42:37 consequences. Yeah. But like the fact that like someone's fancy corporate lawyer mom can fly over from the Rockies and do that is not something that, you know, we would have access to or not something that like my high school boyfriend would have access to. Okay. So today we've pulled back the curtain of the Ivy League, not to tear it down, but really to share the truth with everyone. And the point isn't that the Ivy League is bad, but the point is that it comes with a shadow and you need to, to be aware of all the things that affects. So whether it's elitism, whether it's kind of forcing everyone into the same path, whether it's mental health issues, the inherent sort of like level of privilege that is assumed

Starting point is 00:43:19 of all students. And then I guess also the concept of not all adults are necessarily watching out for you. That's dark. That's spooky. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe it's naive to assume that in the first place. But maybe not.

Starting point is 00:43:33 I think like, you know, the child. versus adult sort of dynamic, it's not wrong to assume that adults at an institution in which you've opted into and they've opted to being the teachers at, like, would have, should have your best interests at heart. Should have your back. Yeah. So I think one takeaway is that whether you are choosing a school, whether you're looking at your first job, whether you're trying to make a really big decision, one important takeaway

Starting point is 00:43:58 is that the shine of it is not the whole story. So you should always be digging one layer deeper so that you have. all the information you need to make the right decision. And in that way, you can define success on your own terms. So we're going to give you a power move for you to try this week. Oh, that's good. Name one area of your life where you've been chasing the brand, whether it's the school, the company, the job,

Starting point is 00:44:24 and really think to yourself, am I chasing the brand for the right reasons? What is the experience that I'm actually going to get out of it? And is chasing the brand actually worth it? If this conversation was eye-opening to you in any way, share this episode with a friend who might be weighing some important choices. And don't forget to like and subscribe so you get notified whenever there's a new episode of Tiger Sisters. And don't forget to rate our podcast five stars and leave a comment if you can. It is so important to help other people find our podcast. We really appreciate your support and we love our Tiger Sisters family.

Starting point is 00:44:59 We would be nowhere without you guys. Thank you guys. See you next time. Bye.

Tiger Sisters - The Dark Side of the Ivy League: Pressure, Prestige, and the Price of Success

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.