Tiger Sisters - The Dirty Truth About Office Politics (school never taught you this secret to succeed).

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

This is our most vulnerable, no-filter episode yet, where we dig into what really separates top performers from the pack. We're dropping the polished talk and getting into the raw truths: the surprising habits that worked for us, the moments that totally didn’t 😬, and the hard feedback that pushed us further. From navigating confidence to the art of bouncing back, we share the good, the bad, and the downright awkward parts of leveling up. If you’re ready to go beyond the hustle hype and hear the real stuff – we’re not holding back on this one. 💥🥊  ------------------------------------------------------------------ 🐯👯‍♀️ Tiger Sisters Podcast | Career, Entrepreneurship, and Life Welcome to Tiger Sisters, your go-to podcast for career mentorship and life guidance! Hosted by Cherie Brooke Luo and Jean Luo, we’re your internet big sisters here to demystify the ups and downs of navigating careers, tech, and entrepreneurship— all while staying healthy, stylish, and joyful along the way. Cherie is an influencer who has broken down the complexities of big tech, finance, and MBA programs for millions of viewers, with over 100M+ views across platforms. Jean is a tech product executive and investor, holding over 50 AI patents, who has built an impressive career in product management and institutional investment at companies like Goldman Sachs and Snapchat. Between the two of us, we’ve survived stints at top investment banks and big tech firms, founded startups, and earned four Ivy League degrees—if we’re counting Stanford! Yet, we still find time to focus on wellness, friendships, fashion, and skincare, always sharing the lessons we've learned along the way. Whether you’re here for career advice, stories about balancing life’s challenges, or just to hear our honest takes on what it means to pursue fun, wealth, and joy in all areas of life, we’ve got you covered. 💛 LET'S CONNECT:  ~ CHERIE ~ 🤳🏻 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cherie.brooke  📱 TikTok – https://www.tiktok.com/@cherie.brooke  ✍🏻 My Substack – https://cherieluo.substack.com/  👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/cherie-luo/  ~ JEAN ~ 🤳🏻 Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/jeanluo_/ 👩🏻‍💻 LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeanluo  🎵 Music produced by Sammy Signal https://open.spotify.com/artist/2HsyknHuxhT8RoZfn5rqMS 🛍️ Items Referenced: 🍵Sisters Matcha & SISTERS Merch: www.sistersmatcha.com ✨Tiger Sisters & Friends Japan Trip (May 2025): https://trovatrip.com/trip/asia/japan/japan-with-cherie-luo-may-2025   ♠️ Everything else: https://amzn.to/3z0dx5b ⏰ Timestamps: 00:00 - Jean & Cherie kick things off 🐯 01:05 - Jean’s Thorn: Flashback to College Struggles 🏫  06:25 - Jean’s Rose: Harry Stebbings put himself on blast 💥 10:17 - Cherie’s R&T: viral video ride and the rollercoaster 🎢 14:59 - MAILBAG: How did you become top performers? ❤️ 23:34 - Navigating bad actors (office drama) 🎭 27:24 - Jean’s personal guide to ‘managing up’ 📈 29:14 - Secret skill to bring you to the next level in corporate 👩‍💼 38:15 - What you never learned in school that’s critical for workplace 🧠 44:51 - Ditch the scarcity mindset NOW 📉 49:02 - Practice micro rejection therapy 👹 55:00 - Parting thoughts & hugs from the Tiger Sisters 🐅✨

Hi, I'm Gene and I'm Sheree. And we're the Tiger Sisters. Welcome to this week's episode. In today's episode, we're going to talk about how to be a top performer, how to become a top performer. Yes, in the professional world, how to get promoted, how to excel in the workplace. This also ties to the personal aspect as well. Gene and I both graduated from business school and a big part of getting into business school is being a top performer. So let's dive in. And don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe, especially if you're on Spotify, please leave a five-star review because it helps other people find our podcast and get our message out there. Thanks. Also, Jean and I read every single comment that you guys leave on Spotify or on YouTube.

So if you have any questions or follow-ups, leave them below. And we might include them in next week's mailbag. Okay, so Gene, what is your rose and thorn? Okay, so my thorn, they both kind of actually relate to the topic at hand today a little bit. Not really on purpose, but it just kind of like worked out that way. So my thorn is that earlier this week, I was actually like digging through some old emails for like administrative reasons. And I found all of these emails that were from when I was like early on in college. And they were like between me and the like financial.

eight office and it was when I was like working through some like really difficult things that were going on with our family and this was like your freshman year my sophomore year and it was actually like it was I don't know just like reading through all of it I remembered how like truly difficult it was at the time and like I actually thought for a long time. I was a long time. while going through all of that, that I would have to drop out of college. And, like, at the time, I, like, didn't even tell that to anyone. And I was kind of just, like, struggling through that on my own and trying to, like, figure out and, like, and trying to, like, muddle through this system that I didn't really understand.

I didn't have any sort of, like, support from, like, people that had done it before. and so I was just like looking back on it and I just had like so much like empathy for myself back then and I was just really feeling like wow like that was a really really difficult time. It was so tough. Yeah, it was so tough and I didn't have anyone to talk about it with and like I felt kind of like, you know, sort of some like shame around it and um it was just like i just remember it was a really hard time and i guess i guess the like flip side of it now is that now that i am like where i am i'm kind of like wow like i wish i could just like go back in time and um give like baby me a hug and just be like oh it's all going to be fine and then also now i'm like

oh, everything's going to be fine. Like, nothing is ever going to be as bad as, like, back then when I felt like I had, like, very little to no control over my own situation. Whereas now I feel like, I don't know, like a big part of it is like having financial independence. Yeah. And being, this is actually a funny quote that I, like, I saw a clip of like Tinks's podcast.

And at one point she called herself, she was like, she was like, I'm. I'm like borderline wealthy, like referring to herself. I thought that was such a funny phrase. But like seriously, like having financial independence has made, I think, such a big difference for me. And like I'm just kind of like, I'm never going to be in that situation ever again. Yeah. And like no matter what happens in general, like nothing's ever going to be as difficult as it was in the past.

So that was kind of, I guess, the thorn. Geez, I didn't even realize that. Was that this past week? You didn't even tell me that you were like going through that. Yeah, you weren't here. You were somewhere. Was I out to dinner or something? And you just went into like a deep hole of like despair going through these emails?

No, you were, um, I don't remember. You were somewhere all day. Oh, you were filming with, um, Ben. Oh, God. Yeah, you were filming. Damn. You could have texted me. I'm sorry you had to go through that alone.

That's okay. I texted Tom about it. Oh, that's so sweet. Was he, I mean, have you talked to him about it before? No, I don't think he knew any of that. Because like I said, so Tom is my friend that I've known since freshman year and he's like, one of my closest friends. Like, we could not be more different in most ways, but he like knows me very deeply and vice versa.

But I don't think I ever like let on any of that stuff. I think my friends knew that I was like a very hard worker. because back in college, I literally had so many effing jobs. Like, I could list them off. You were Arwit Tudor. You worked in the periodicals like the library. Yeah. I was at one point, like a security guard in the like hood museum of art, which like entails

very little because no one is trying to like actually like steal anything. But it's just kind of one of those jobs that like you do. And then I was also, I just, I had so many other. I was a UGA, which is like an R.A. which you were paid for. I was a research assistant for the med school and the school of toxicology. I was also a research assistant at the Tuck School of Business. I worked so hard.

But anyway, maybe we'll cut some of that out. Damn. It's not related. So that was the thorn. And then the rose is that actually was actually something you sent me. me earlier this week, which was a post from Harry Stebbings, who's the co-host or host of this 20VC, podcast called 20VC, which is very, very successful. And basically the post said, like, the first 100 episodes we had, we never broke a thousand plays

per episode. And now we get a thousand plays in 90 seconds. And he was like, most people. fail in terms of like most creators fail because they just give up. He was like, don't give up. Like that's the secret to it. So I think, I mean, that's like a bit of an oversimplification. Like it can't be the only secret. Yeah. But it was just really helpful for me because like I have been sort of like secretly bemoaning the fact that we like our episodes don't break like 10K. Whereas like some of your other old episodes have like 80K views and something like that.

And it's just been hard because, you know, I'm new to all this and I don't really have like benchmarks to like judge success or like progress by really. So like having that was really, really helpful. And then I had a meta moment, which is kind of funny because I'm like, oh, I'm so grateful that this guy Harry Stebbings like put that out there so that like I could read that and then I could like feel inspired and like have critical information. You know what I mean? And then I was like, oh, that is, it comes full circle because that's what we're trying to do with our podcasts.

And that's why like we're putting ourselves out there. Because, you know, maybe like Harry Simmons doesn't care anymore. But like it's kind of embarrassing that for a hundred episodes, he never broke a thousand views, right? Like he could think about it that way. Or he could be like, hey, if I put this out there, then like aspiring like podcasters can feel better about themselves and like keep going. Yeah. So then I was like, oh, wow, that's like what we're trying to do. And that's what we are doing. And that's like all the feedback that we get from all the content that we put out there. And that's why we work so hard. So, so yeah, that was the rose. Well, I really appreciate you sharing both the rose and thorns. I feel like they're both very vulnerable. So thank you for sharing that. And I know, like I definitely know. that people who are watching this right now will benefit from both of your roses and thorns, especially the thorn.

It was like over, it was like more than a decade ago. Yeah, over 15, almost like 20 years ago. Yeah. And it's still like a very powerful feeling, like just going, I can, can only imagine going through those emails. And like I think it serves like multi purposes. Like one is that like because of that. And I've had a flavor of that in my life, but definitely not to that.

extreme but like because of that I think we both have a drive to be like neither of us nor will our children like ever be put through that or will we let it get to that right and we're like driven to that because it was a very stressful time so like it serves multi purposes in both like a good and bad way and if you're watching this and you're currently struggling with financial aid or like going through the college process or graduate school process like know that like there are people that you can talk to, like you don't have to do it alone. And like now I think there's like way more resources on the internet that can help you problem solve and think through this and seek guidance so that you're not doing it alone. Yeah. I love you. Love you. Okay. I'll move on to my

rose and my thorn. I'm getting emotional. Hey guys, quick break to let you know that we now have merch on sisters matcha.com. We have sweatshirts and t-shirts that we designed yourselves. go check it out. And please rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These ratings are so important for the distribution and survival of Tiger Sisters Podcasts. Thank you for your support. Okay. And we're back. And we're back. It's like we never left actually. Yeah. Okay. So what about your Rosenthorn? I'll also start with my Thorne. It's been a weird week in terms of content creation for me. I think there's both a good and bad side of going viral. And I feel like over the last week or so, I've experienced the really toxic side of going viral. Like one of my videos I made,

I don't know, maybe it's three weeks now. It's like still gaining a lot of views, almost a million views on Instagram, which is great. It was just like a silly video of like what I'm looking for. It was a response to our dating podcast. And while there's like really, nice and fun supportive feedback in the beginning when the video was first released. Now it's like reached the utter pits of like misogyny internet grossness. It's reached the Reddit side. It really has. And so now I just like in my comments have like a lot of like people like saying really horrible things, which like 99.999% of them are not true. They're just like projecting. but it would be lying to say it doesn't hurt a little bit because I don't know like it's still

like a video of me and a video of me being like vulnerable in some sense. So I like try not to let it get to me and like I can do all of like the mental engineering to be like it's not about me. They're projecting and like logic my way through it. But I would be lying to say that like didn't bother me. Dude. You want to say something? Put your name to it. That's what and Minaj says actually. He has a bit on that where he's like put your government name. Yeah, put your photo and put your photo and then say to me what you want to say. Yeah, and then say that and then say about you. Like talk about yourself. Yeah. So it's yeah, been getting me down. I think like celebrities, I've also talked to creators about this as well where

celebrities who have like big enough teams will have people read through the comments and then like distill everything down kind of like a performance review. from your boss, you know, but they can like scrub the negative things that they know that, that person wouldn't want to read. Or like not productive. Right. Like that they know are not from like actual fans and doesn't reflect. And it's like not even constructive feedback or anything.

So obviously our team is the two of us and we won't be doing that anytime soon. Should we get like an intern to like scrub my hate comments? Well, just in general, we could probably use some help. Yeah. But so that's been getting me down. Um, not great. But a great thing arose for this last week is that I've been getting more involved in my alumni networks. Oh yeah. And that's like real life interactions where it's like, okay, I'm meeting people like I'm off the screen. I'm off the internet. Like not online, but offline.

So I was a part of Columbia in tech in San Francisco. That's the alumni network. And I was on the executive team of that when I lived in San Francisco. Now we have our work live situation in L.A. I'm trying to get a bit more situated and meeting more Columbia alums here. There's not that many in Los Angeles. So there's a small group of us, but we're trying to get the gears moving. And it's really great just connecting with alums, some of whom I knew and some were new. But I'm really big on community, actually. Like, I really enjoy doing like the Stanford alumni events. She loves community. The Columbia alumni events that are now going to happen. And I really like organizing and bringing people together.

So this feels like a safe space for me. Cool. That was our very, very long roses and thorns for the both of us. Yeah. So we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back after this and we'll get into our main topic. Hey everyone, quick break to share something special. Sisters Macha.

We've launched limited batches of ceremonial grade, single estate, single cultivar, matcha, straight from the family farm Shri worked on in Japan. It's pure, authentic, and crafted with intention. Head to sisters mancha.com to grab yours before it sells out. Make matcha your daily ritual for lasting energy and focus. Okay, so this episode was once again inspired by a mailbag entry. Mail bag. Okay, so Kusik 100 asked,

Would love to hear how you guys manage to become top performers, i.e. healthy habits to avoid burnout, managing expectations and relationships at work, study hacks, and more. Well, Kushek, you're in luck. We're about to dive into this topic. Dive in real deep. So why don't we start with mindset? Gene, what do you think about having healthy mindset to be a top performer?

Yeah, I think, and this is not going to be like groundbreaking, but I think that two really important parts of mindset is, one, having self-discipline, and then two, having a growth mindset. And like, I can think of, it's funny, like, I can think of more examples of you doing this than myself just because I've like watched you grow up. And like I don't know why, but like the example that is so strong in my mind about you was when you were a freshman in undergrad. And this was when Cherie thought she wanted to be a doctor still and she was doing premed. And you were like desperate to get a job at a lab. Yeah. And there's this one lab at Columbia that you really, really,

really wanted to break into. I like hyperfixated on this one lab that was doing like neuroscience research. Neuroplasticity? No, no. This was a microfluidics lab. Yeah. With Dr. Sia. Sia Lab. And he had created this brand for himself.

Yeah. For his lab, like within the labs community. Yeah, it was culty. But they did microfluidics and they did it in a couple of different ways. But they were like one using microfluidics to like help test blood. Not Theronosi, but kind of. But she like really, really, really wanted to work there. And I think you're like, what should I do?

And I was like, just email the lab, like, email Dr. Sia and be like, hey, I'm like, blah, blah, blah, student. I'm like a freshman. I would really, really love to work in your lab. Yeah. And then, like, you did it once. And then you're like, he never responded. And you're like, whey.

And then I was like, no, just do it again. Like, keep emailing him over and over and over again. I think you email him like, what, like four times before he finally responded? Yeah. Or like, what's the details? No, I think I emailed him like six times? No, it was three or four. four times. And then he finally responded. He's like, okay, come into the lab. We'll do an interview.

In that way, it's just being really persistent. Like persistence, I think, nearly almost pays off. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of like, I don't know, like that's something that anyone can do for free. Yeah. Right? Being persistent. The cost of it is your your time and energy, essentially. but, you know, that's something that's like kind of available to everyone. Yeah. I think in that story too, it's like very easy to get discouraged. And I was super lucky to have you to like continually like push me. Yeah.

Because like after the first email, I mean, this is when I was like 18. And like I would send an email to my. She was like, where? I was sending an email to my teacher in high school and they would respond in the next like five minutes. So it was just like not getting a response. Dr. Mr. Z. Yeah. Shout out Mr.

Shout out Mr. Z in high school who would respond to my emails. But like in this case, it was just like not getting an email back. Not that it was devastating. That's like so dramatic. Mr. Z was like the hot history teacher. Can we put that out there? No, we cannot. Mr. Z, if you're watching this, please ignore.

I was obsessed with him. But I guess what was I saying? Sorry. She's going off the walls. it's just like having discipline like if you don't get an answer a no answer is not an answer yet so just keep emailing until you get a response and like now that I'm an adult and not like an 18 like 17 18 year old like emailing a professor or like a lab um like a not emailing someone for an opportunity like now I'm on the other side where I'm receiving a lot like it's okay to be persistent

I think people like are busy. Things fall through the cracks. So just like continually email if it's something that you're excited and passionate about. Yeah. And honestly like the persistence shows something about you. Yeah. Like by emailing multiple times, it shows that you're determined.

Like you're able to actually demonstrate like a really positive trait about yourself without even having a single actual interaction with someone. Yeah. So that's actually kind of cool. I just thought that. Yeah. I think it like related, I would say in terms of mindset, it's like hard to develop like we're like oh you should have a growth mindset oh you should

like be persistent and I think that's hard to do just like by sitting there and like not doing anything all of these traits are learned or like grown through doing it so I would say like determination in order to be determined you have to be rejected multiple times and you have to like get back up again after you've been rejected or if you failed I think also like you need to believe that you can be successful through being persistent and determined. And like, I think for me, like, the reason why I was able to, like, encourage you to do that. And, like, I knew that success was on the other side of that for you somehow through your persistence is because, like, I had gone through that in college when I was looking for an internship,

myself, which was, like, during the depths of the, like, great recession from 07 to, like, 2010, or 06 to 2010. And I was, like, so desperate to work in finance. And unfortunately, at the time, like, that was when, like, Lehman happened. That was when, like, Bear Stearns happened. And, like, nobody was hiring. But I was still, like, applying for all these internships and just, like, getting rejected left and right.

And I was, like, so, so sad. I was actually like so despondent. And also like all this other family stuff that I referenced was going on at the same time. But ultimately after getting rejected even by literally like Goldman Sachs like multiple times, like I ended up getting a job from them out of like an offer from them out of undergrad. Yeah. You have to believe it will, it can and will happen. Yeah.

Because if you don't have that belief, like what's the point in even trying? Yeah. You have to think that like good things are happening to you and good things will come. Yeah. And also I guess to not take things personally. Like if I had, this would have been like, I guess ridiculous, but like if I had been like, wow, like Goldman Sachs has already rejected me like two times or like three times like I'm not going to apply to them anymore. Goldman Sachs hates me. Yeah.

Like no, it's just you need to find the right opportunity for you. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So yeah, I'm like reflecting on it. I'm like kind of I feel like I like took that learning and then like applied it to you. Yeah. Mentorship.

If only I had a big sister of my own. I just have to figure everything out on my own. And that's why you have this podcast. Just had to figure everything out by myself. Oldest daughter syndrome. Yes, seriously. Refer to the oldest daughter syndrome episode. Yes.

Here. I'll try to post it here. Maybe. Some of the characteristic traits that we just listed out, like a lot of those can be learned. But I think for the reality of it is that like sometimes it's out of your control. But one thing that like, potentially you can, you know, kind of shape or seek out are people who can support you and people who can lift you up and help you become a top performer. A lot of the times it's not

just like doing the good work, being very disciplined and like grinding. Many times it's like having someone else shine a light on you and also you recognizing like who are the people in my life who can lift you up. Yeah. And so a very clear example of that. And I've talked about this in our one of our previous episodes, but like having male allies in the workplace, especially because I worked in a male dominated environment, like it can be a woman, of course. But like having allies who can like lift you up, shine a light on you and make sure that you're not only are you doing good work, but it's recognized by like the people around you is really important to being a top performer. Because a lot of the times it's about the perception. And if you want to, you know, get promoted in the

workplace, it's not just your boss who needs to buy into that. And like, believe in you, but it's all the people who have the power to promote you in that, like, committee. Yeah, I think it's also just in general, even before, like, promotions or anything, it's, like, finding people who believe in you, because I do think, like, a lot of times in the workplace, like, I won't take it so far as to say that a lot of people are, like, bad actors. There are bad actors out there. Like, I'm... Be warned. Yeah, seriously. I'm, like, fully, like, cynical in some ways now where I'm like, yes, some people are out to get you and some people are actual like assholes. Oh, people, there are people who you will not vibe with in the workplace. That's fine.

And then there are people who will try to undermine you. Oh, 100%. So don't be like so like head in the clouds that you can't recognize that because I think that's who I was for a very long time. Is that like, I don't know. Like I feel like a consistent theme in my life is that I'll like look back on myself when I was younger and I'm like, oh my God, you were so naive. Like, you thought everyone was just, like, out to try to, like, do a good job. Like, you thought everyone was just trying to, like, reach the stated goal that, like, was the goal of the team. And, like, you didn't really think about, like, what are their, like, internal incentives and, like, what sort of, like, goals are they trying to reach for themselves that are actually, like, counter to the goals of the

team or counter to, like, your success. Or, like, personal gain or something. Yeah, exactly. Like, people are a lot more. more like self-oriented than you think. And like, I guess like, I don't know, sorry if this comes across as negative or not sorry, but this may come across as negative. But it's something, it's something that it's better for you to understand and like hold and like know early on in your career, then like have to like learn it yourself through like a difficult lesson. Hmm. And maybe, I mean, I have a hard time swallowing that just like personally, but I think also just like understanding it's not personal sometimes too is that like someone like has a stated like personal objective like they want to get this and they're willing to like do whatever it takes to get there and you might be in their way. You might not be helping them do that. Like. Yeah. Yeah. But like back to the topic at hand. I think seeking out people who believe in you is just like so important because. there are times when like you just it you can't really cultivate that for yourself yeah um and it's

okay if you don't vibe with your boss um i will say i've really enjoyed the bosses that i've worked with when i was at lincoln all of them have been very supportive of me that being said i've talked to many friends and also like other close mentors of mine who've told me they've gone through like ten bosses in their career and they're like they've all like not been exactly what i'm looking for and like haven't been supportive, which is why like I aim to like support my like team in this way now. Yeah. It's like, I think that's like, I don't know if it's taboo, but like it's okay if you don't vibe with your boss.

And if you can find a boss that like you really click with who really wants to uplift you, that is so important. Yeah. I mean, for me, I would say I've had like both spectrums of the experience where like I've had a boss before where like not only did we vibe like I feel like. I feel like I would follow them to like the ends of the earth. Like I would walk through walls for them. Yes, exactly.

Because I knew that they like saw my value and they like appreciated me and like appreciated all my hard work and they have your back. Yeah, exactly. Like I just felt like we were on a team. And then on the flip side of it, I have had a boss who totally was the opposite. Like completely tried to undermine me. Like was actually very much not aligned with my goal. and the stated goals that like they said were our shared goals and was actually quite like

just like detrimental to my mental health. I was going to say traumatic in some ways. Yeah. Traumatic in a lot of ways. It can be traumatic because like the conventional mindset is that like your boss is there to help you. You're there to help your boss but your boss is there to like uplift you. And when that's like not the case like it's not the paradigm is shifted.

You're like, oh my God. Yeah. And so I would say back to the topic at hand is that that is when it's all the more important to have like a second, a third, a fourth opinion of people who are, who you respect and who can like have a like third party view on your work and like reflect back to you like, hey, you are doing a good job in these ways. And like you are like successful in these ways. Like maybe these are some areas.

of like constructive feedback and areas where you can improve. But like that's why it's important that you don't like kind of pin your entire worldview on one person who might be like, who may, who may have like the most influence over your career, but still you don't know necessarily like if they are sort of like aligned with your success. Or rooting for you. Yeah. I guess is this a controversial statement? It's hard to be a top performer without the support of your boss.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Like maybe you might be doing good work, but like top performance is also predicated on like how people see you as well. In the corporate world, yes. In the corporate world. Especially if you're working on a team. If you're working like on a solo thing, like I think that's different too. Like if you're a researcher and like your output is anyways. So like in the corporate world where your like fate, your promotion is like dependent on so many other people, it's kind of outside of your control in that way.

a political environment, I would say you need a good boss. Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I would say, like, the next thing we wanted to talk about was emotional intelligence and how that relates to top performance. In general, like, if you want to become like an executive of EP at a company, like, you will need to be intelligent, like smart to get there. But the thing to get you to the next level is having emotional intelligence to be a top performer. Like there's so many studies out there that say that the number one skill that bring people to the next level is having emotional intelligence. Like I think this one might be a bit harder to learn.

Like there's so many books like Travis Bradbury. I think he has a book called Emotional Intelligence 2.0. And maybe he wrote another one called 3.0 or something. I don't know. There's ways that you can kind of like test yourself and see how you can grow in this field. But like the best top performers are. very aware of the room, they can read the room and they can understand like how other people are feeling and kind of like harness that as well. I would say if you want to be a good manager

and especially if you want to be a leader of teams, emotional intelligence is going to be one of your biggest tools because once you are in a team leadership position, you will see that like people problems. A vast majority of your time is, spent on people problems. And people problems are going, or people issues, I would say, are going to be either the death of you or it's going to be like the success of you. People say people problems. Managers say people problems are like what they spend the most time on. It's like when you have a team of more than like 12 people or company more than 12 people, it's people problems. I mean, even if you have a team of like, I think like five

and up is when you start to see the dynamics of people within your team. I mean, we could do a whole episode about this of like what are best practices for managing a team and for helping people that you manage, like, reach their potential and how to like maximize, um, how to optimize in that aspect. But I would say there's two things. So like there's one is having the emotional intelligence to be able to like manage your team and the people that you oversee and having them do their best work. And like generally I would say my philosophy has been kind of the like, I guess the T-shaped person, which is that like each person is usually uniquely very talented in one or two things. And then they're like decent to bad at like several other things.

So there's like kind of like two different philosophies. Some people are like, I want every single person to be really well-rounded. So if someone's not good at something, I want them to like really concentrate on that. And I'm going to push them to like fix it so that they can be above average in that. Versus like my approach is more that if something is really good at, if someone is really good at a specific skill to have them like double down on that skill and like use that like three or four times more than other people. on the team and then kind of like uphold them for that skill and like laud them for that and then have them be like the like tutor to everyone else on the team for that one thing. So that was kind of like my approach to like running teams and in that way what I really liked about that is that in that

way everybody on the team had kind of this like growth mindset. Whereas like everyone was a top performer in their specific niche. Exactly. So that way everyone felt like they're a top performer in some way. And like, if they're acknowledged for the things that they're good at, then they're more receptive to improving the areas that they're not good at. Right. Like, because you can kind of, it's easier to hold both things in your mind to be like, wow, I'm really, really good at this thing, but I'm not as good at this thing versus being told like, you're, like, mediocre at like these five things or like you're like decent at these five things. But in that way, like oftentimes you have a team where some people are like junior and then some people are much

more senior, right? But there's always something that even the senior person can learn from the junior person and obviously vice versa. So it's like creating like a kind of like a learning environment and growing environment for everyone on the team and this kind of idea of like continual growth. Yeah. I like that if people figure out what they're good at and like figure out like the thing that like makes them stand out their unique value at, they can be a top performer in that specific way. I think it creates a lot more surface area for people rather than if everyone's trying to be well-rounded, it feels more like a zero-sum game in that way. Yeah. And that's not to say that like you can get away with like not having basic skills, right? Like you still need to meet the,

at least the bar for like all of the required components of your role. But, um, but yeah. So that's just kind of like how I would run my teams. And I think it worked out really well. But so the other, the other side of emotional intelligence, especially when you become more senior and you're like an executive, is influencing other executives and being able to sort of like into it. What are the actual true drivers of this person's behavior? Like what do they actually? You know, understand their motivations. What are their core beliefs and how does that translate into how they want this interaction and how they want and what their goals are?

And then like once you can try to like, you have to like actually take time to like try to think about it. And once you can start to do that, you can sort of like form a fuller picture of how to approach conversations and how to approach your interactions with people. people and how to approach like a broader meeting of the minds. Broader meeting of minds. Yeah, broader meeting of the minds, casual. Yeah, I think a lot of it is like self-awareness, also understanding like how you come off.

And then also like reading the room because as Jean said, it's like understanding how like other people are behaving and what that means about what they want, what their desires are, what their motivations are, whether it's like personal or professional gain in that way. Like do they have a really strong opinion and they want their opinion to like win out against everyone else and why is that? Because like, you know, and also not everyone will be as open. Like a lot of people like in the corporate world have their cards really close to their chest because they want to be a top performer. So they won't like, yeah, or share. They'll straight up obfuscate like what they actually want. Like their stated desire is only going to have like maybe like a 15%.

and overlap with their true desire. This is like, we're also talking about like a very political environment. And I think this might be like some more toxic companies. Yeah, but it's all, it's all political. Once you get to a certain level, once you get to a certain level and size, I think at startups, like people who are like, you know, smaller teams, medium sized companies where people are all aligned with like the success of the company being like the number one thing that they're optimizing for.

And like maybe that's like having the. company grow or make this amount of revenue. Like, I think it's much more straightforward and, like, less people do less obfuscating there. But, like, when you're at a larger company and there's, like, way more people, it's like, the whole dynamic is shifted, I would say. Yeah. But I would say a lot of people at one point in their, most people at some point in their lives will work at a big company.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's important to understand, like, the underlying dynamics. and kind of what's going on. And I think Gene and I used to be very naive to that. Like when we first went into the corporate world, because we're like rose-colored glasses, la-la-la, new grad type of thing. Yeah.

I think like going into the corporate world, I was very much like the meritocracy mindset where I was like, study hard, do well on your SATs, like get into a good school. Like, you know, you kind of like feel like there's like a formula. that you can try to optimize towards versus like the real world has like all these. If it was like a math equation, it would have all these like elements that you don't even know about.

Yeah. Factors. Is that what I meant to say? Well, also people don't teach you about this. Like nothing in college told you about how these corporations function and like how they work. Has anyone ever told you about that? Me either. No.

Especially because our family, like our mom doesn't come from this kind of like corporate environment in this way. Yeah. Although politics like exists in many environments just like even outside of the corporate world. But like I guess we weren't really like prepared for that. And so like hit us hard in that way. And now like not that we're jaded, but like we see it. And hopefully you guys can like understand a bit more about like what's going on under the surface because no one teaches you this stuff. Yeah.

And people don't like talking about it. people don't like people are like oh it's like not political they kind of like push it aside too yeah also we should probably get back on track and talk about top performance yeah but it i think this is all like a very critical part of top performance like if you don't understand this yeah you'll you'll never be a top performer unless like shri said like your job is literally to be like a researcher like you're working by yourself yeah like you're a PhD like working on a specific like topic but even then politics there too. Yeah, there's a ton of politics in order to get funding.

Yeah. First publisher. Yeah. First name on a paper. Like, I'm sure there's politics in every way. Yeah, to be assigned or like, yeah, to be assigned the like exact topic that you want to study in order to get on the right trips. Yeah. Yeah. To get the funding that you need to like get the grants. Anyway. I guess the smaller you go, it feels like there's less politics. The smaller you go. Yeah.

there's like less factors. Yeah. There's less people. And it can be frustrating because a lot of it is out of your control as well. So I also recognize that as well. Like if you're in a situation with a boss you don't like and it is a political thing, then like I think the best that you can do is either like understand the situation and try to grow in it as much as you can or honestly get out of the situation.

So you can be put, like have the agency to put yourself in a better situation, which I also understand can be very challenging in today's job market. But that's kind of just, I think, the reality of it. Yes. And I think that like one thing I'll say is that when I was younger, I, so obviously, like, I, I, I, so obviously I'm an immigrant and grew up in this very much like, um, immigrant first gen mentality where unlike a lot of my white friends, like I wasn't used to talking to adults as equals. And I think I can. carried that into my, like, early and even, like, middle years of my career. Totally. In a way that very much, like, hindered me, as opposed to, like, a lot of my friends that grew up just, like, shooting the shit with their, like, parents' friends.

Yeah. Never had that, um, sort of, like, not chip on their shoulder, but, like, that obstacle. So, like, I grew up, and it's, it's very, like, I think true for, like, many cultures, even if you're not like an immigrant or first gen, like just that kind of idea of like filial piety. Or like adults are the end all be all. Adults know everything. You don't question what they say. Or like not even just adults, but like authority figures. So like kind of like the deference to whatever authority figures are. And like that starts with like adults right when you're a kid. So I think. I also had that realization like over the last couple of years as well.

Yeah. Where like I realized in high school, middle school, high school, college, I didn't really question what our teachers were teaching us. I just like, I just consumed everything. And now that I realize as an adult, I'm like, they're also adults and also fallible. Yeah. And so I don't know. I wish I had like in high school questioned more stuff and not in a disrespectful way, of course, but just like, you know, pushed a little harder to understand like what we're learning. And in college too, I just absorbed. And I don't know if that was like good for me as I was. then graduating and going into the workplace. Yeah. But that's all to say that I would say like don't be

afraid to ask for what you need. Put it out there. I agree. There are definitely times I think like especially early on in my career that I was just so terrified to like ask for really simple things that like if I like reflect on my coworkers like they would have just asked for it like in a second. Can you give an example? Well, one example is that in my first job at Goldman, I sat near this person who was just like really like terrible. And used to like even like literally, this is so traumatizing like kick me under the table. By the way, I hate you so much. I still fucking hate him. Okay, I hate him too.

And for so long I was like, why is he like doing this to me? like why like is he treating me this way? And then like I was like taking it on very personally and trying to like understand what I could do to like change this person's behavior. When like in reality, there's nothing I could have done to change his behavior. Right. So like eventually after like agonizing and thinking about it for like I think probably like weeks, I finally asked my VP.

I was like, hey like can I swap my seat? Like can I sit somewhere else on the floor? and he was like, oh, I think he, like, asked me why, and I, like, didn't really give a reason. I was just like, oh, like, I don't like where I'm sitting. And then he was like, yeah, okay, sure. And then he, like, swap my seat. And, like, literally, and then I sat next to this other associate named Alexander Cochran, who is great, love you.

And my life just, like, improved, like, 50x. Like, and it wasn't even, like, like, this other associate, he was just, like, normal to me. Like, he just, like, he just, like, he just, acted normally. Like he wasn't like a fucking like crazy person. Yeah. And so like I was just like, why didn't I ask for that sooner? Like why was I so scared? Like I just, I think inside I was like, oh, like he's going to like, you know, think that like something is. Yeah. Like I was, I was like, oh, Jason the VP is going to like think something bad of me or like he's going to like look down to me or like I don't know if it's like you're like allowed to switch seats. Like I was just so spiraling.

I was just so in my head about it and like I was very caught up into like, in like, oh, am I allowed to do this? Versus like, I don't know, maybe like for some people it just sounds like totally ridiculous. It's like, why don't you just ask to switch your seat? But I don't know. Like it was my first job and I was like very much caught up in the like, like, wow, I can't believe I like made it here. Like I don't want to do anything. To like mess it up. To mess it up.

And also like that goes back to, I think. think a scarcity mindset. Yeah, I was just thinking that scarcity versus abundance mindset. Versus like someone who would come in and be like, yeah, like, I don't really need this job. Or like, sure, like I got this job, but like I deserve it. Like, yeah, they should, they're lucky to have me here. And like, would have taken it way further than like what I did. Yeah. Hmm. I'm really like revealing like every single trauma. Yeah. I've ever had. on this episode. She's trauma dumping. Yeah, what's going on? I mean, well, I think so much of our life is striving to be top performers. So I think a lot, like, you know. It hits, yeah, it hits deep. It hits deep. Like a lot of our life, like, I mean, the story that you first shared for your Thorne was just like, that's one of the reasons why we strove and strive to be top performers is to like financially be independent because it was so traumatic in many different aspects of our lives growing up. Yeah. In so many different ways in our childhood. that like, you know, some people leave comments back to the mean comments that I get. Some people

are like, you're like academics is like your entire personality, which is not true. But like it is a big part of like how we saw success and like getting out of that was becoming a top performer anyways. So I will say I think the takeaway here, like top performers ask for what they want and they do it unapologetically, not in a disrespectful way, but like pinpoint what you need to help you get to the next level and ask for it because the worst that they can say is no and be like, no, you cannot have that or no, I cannot help you with that. And that's okay. And that's facing rejection, right? And you have to have enough like growth mindset to be like, that's okay. I will try again, you know, in a couple of weeks or whatever is the right time. But like,

knowing what you need and asking for it. Because if you don't ask, you will never get it. Whereas if you do ask, you might get rejected, but you still, the upside is much greater. Yeah, well said. was the last time you asked for something you needed? Are you asking me? Yeah. Is that a rhetorical question? No, that was directed to you. Um, slash, could we make a, like, exercise of us asking for what we need? From who? We just work with each other. Maybe from each other, but like in life, too. Like, it can be, like, with friends or at the grocery store, just, like, ask for what you need. I did. This is kind of, okay, I did. This is kind of, okay, I did. for a little bit, go through this like forced exercise of myself of doing that when I realized

this was back in New York. So like in the, you know, 2010 to 2013. When you're like, I asked to change my desk. Let me ask for everything. No, seriously. When I was like, oh, like what the F have I been doing? Like I have been whatever the opposite of advocating for yourself is. Like I have been like under representing myself and my knees my entire life. And so then for like a couple days, I like force myself to do this challenge to like ask for things. That's growth mindset, baby. That seemed kind of like ridiculous.

And I just remember I was with one of my like best friends from high school, Shari at the time. And we were at, I think, Trader Joe's. And I was like, okay, I'm going to like do something ridiculous and I ask for something. And like at the time, they would give you like samples of like chips while you were checking out. And so, like, they had this, like, open bag of chips and they were, like, giving us samples. And I was like, oh, can I have the whole bag? And they were like, yeah, sure. They were like, well, they were like, uh, I guess.

And then they gave me the whole bag. And that's such, I feel like that's actually a good example because it is totally harmless, right? Yeah. Like, if they say no, then whatever, like, no harm, no foul. But if they say yes, then like, oh, it's like a small, fun little win. You got this like bag of chips. And it's it's more just like for yourself to like exercise. To get the reps in.

Yeah, to get the reps in to do to push yourself to do something that you would never normally do. Yeah. And to ask for something. And so like the more you can exercise it on like a micro level. Yes. The more ready you'll be to do it when it comes to something that's actually like higher stakes. Right. Oh yeah.

I think we're talking about something much deeper and larger now. Like you have to practice it on small things where it's okay to get rejected. for when the big ask comes up, you're not afraid to do it. Rejection therapy. It's rejection, like, exposure therapy or something. Yes. But it's also tying it back. Top performers advocate for themselves.

And they advocate for their needs, especially also when it comes to salary negotiations. Mm-hmm. Because, like, who's going to advocate for yourself in your career? Like, no one will care more about your career than you do. Mm-hmm. And, like, a good boss is a close second, sure. but like you need to advocate for yourself especially when it comes to negotiating your salary too

and if you can like work up to it get the reps in to like understand how to do that it's all the more important when the big stuff comes up also back to like emotional to like EQ and like building like relationships one thing I was really impressed by um when I saw this that you had done this is that you and your friends that were all at the same level like like shared all of your bonus information with each other. We formed a union. We unionized. I was like really impressed by that.

I was also impressed as well because I was surprised. Who started it? I think Logan, God bless his soul. Logan. We love Logan. Oh, Logan. Like one of my best friends from my LinkedIn days. Wait, don't you have a podcast with him?

Yes. So he and I recorded a podcast. It hasn't come out. well, he and I recorded a podcast. It should be on Cherie's Corner by the time this episode comes out. And he is just such a sweetheart. Like we worked on the same team, supported each other, like emotionally in the workplace. Logan is fantastic. One of my closest, closest guy friends.

But he was the one who had that idea and, like, created it. And I think he brought it up because he was a great person to bring it up to. I was surprised. I didn't think everyone would fill it out. Everyone filled it out. I think so. I think everyone filled it out. How many people?

maybe like actually that's not true maybe not everyone but majority of my associate product management class filled out this like google sheet where we wrote like when we got promoted how much bonus we got and like what was our like salary and like so progressive yeah it was like glass door right but like with the individuals that we were in the same cohort so that like you know it's not a really good argument to be like he got paid this much so i get paid this much like you like you should never really say that in the workplace, it's like not a good look. So I've learned, like my boss actually told me that when I tried to use that argument. He's like, well, I don't know about that argument. Like, it's not a good one. But like, if you, the more data points that you have that you can point to without naming the person,

like, the stronger your narrative will be for salary negotiations. Yeah. There are times when the way that I've received that data is people that I manage. Because when you manage people, you can see all of their, like, income and their salary and bonuses that are, and you're the one that's like oftentimes don't get out. And like, I usually like haven't been paying that much attention to that stuff. But then I like notice that I was like, wait, one of these people that I manage is has a higher base salary than me. Like is being paid more than me.

Like that's messed up. You're like, what gives? Yeah. And so having information is important and then taking that information and being able to advocate for yourself is like the next step. Yeah. Of being a top performance. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I think it's, there's like another issue here just like to kind of nitpick at this. It's like not only being a top performer, but being compensated in a commensurate way for being a top performer. Commensurate. She used the word commensurate. So what other word you got? 800 vocab, 800 SAT reading. I do love the word commensurate.

Did I use it in the right way? Yeah. I really like that word, actually. Yeah. You know, there's just like some words that are good. like you like to use, you know? Do you have favorite words? No, I don't nerd. I have some favorite words. I really like the word verdant.

Oh, yeah. You've mentioned that to me before. I have? Yeah. That I like that word. Yeah, you've literally mentioned that you like the word verdant to me. Verdant means like green, lush, like verdant hills. It's such a nice word. Like it just like conjures such nice.

I think there's like a startup name of verdant or something. Oh? Yeah. this is not an ad. Yeah, unless you sponsor this podcast. Unless you sponsor this podcast. All right. Should we wrap up?

It's 11.10. Yeah, this is a threat. Okay. I think this episode was jam-packed with like a lot of... We didn't even get through all the things we wanted to talk through. A lot of information and conversation and also storytelling. So I have a lot of thought, guys. Yeah.

I like that you're being more vulnerable. I really appreciate that. Yeah, guys, I'm being so vulnerable these days. with you. Okay. Can I get some like positive like feedback? Yeah. If you guys enjoy being vulnerable or actually appreciated.

Is this like helping? Like leave a comment below. Otherwise I'm not going to just, you know, or else she's going to put myself on blast anymore. She's going to go back into her turtle shell. Someone give her a positive affirmation. Geez. Yeah.

Okay. Words of affirmation. Anyone? Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I also accept diamonds. Oh, okay. Semi-precious as well. Okay, you're going on hinge.

Let's wrap this up. Okay. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of Tiger Sisters. We would so appreciate it if you could share this episode with someone who might find it helpful. And don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe. We'll see you next time.